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Opinion: Artificial Intelligence Hits the Barrier of Meaning (nytimes.com)

Machine learning algorithms don't yet understand things the way humans do -- with sometimes disastrous consequences. Melanie Mitchell, a professor of Computer Science at Portland State University, writes: As someone who has worked in A.I. for decades, I've witnessed the failure of similar predictions of imminent human-level A.I., and I'm certain these latest forecasts will fall short as well. The challenge of creating humanlike intelligence in machines remains greatly underestimated. Today's A.I. systems sorely lack the essence of human intelligence: understanding the situations we experience, being able to grasp their meaning. The mathematician and philosopher Gian-Carlo Rota famously asked, "I wonder whether or when A.I. will ever crash the barrier of meaning." To me, this is still the most important question.

The lack of humanlike understanding in machines is underscored by recent cracks that have appeared in the foundations of modern A.I. While today's programs are much more impressive than the systems we had 20 or 30 years ago, a series of research studies have shown that deep-learning systems can be unreliable in decidedly unhumanlike ways. I'll give a few examples. "The bareheaded man needed a hat" is transcribed by my phone's speech-recognition program as "The bear headed man needed a hat." Google Translate renders "I put the pig in the pen" into French as "Je mets le cochon dans le stylo" (mistranslating "pen" in the sense of a writing instrument). Programs that "read" documents and answer questions about them can easily be fooled into giving wrong answers when short, irrelevant snippets of text are appended to the document.

Similarly, programs that recognize faces and objects, lauded as a major triumph of deep learning, can fail dramatically when their input is modified even in modest ways by certain types of lighting, image filtering and other alterations that do not affect humans' recognition abilities in the slightest. One recent study showed that adding small amounts of "noise" to a face image can seriously harm the performance of state-of-the-art face-recognition programs. Another study, humorously called "The Elephant in the Room," showed that inserting a small image of an out-of-place object, such as an elephant, in the corner of a living-room image strangely caused deep-learning vision programs to suddenly misclassify other objects in the image.

217 comments

  1. They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Orange man bad", but they know not what it means.

    1. Re:They say... by Locke2005 · · Score: 0

      They also say, "Libruls double-plus ungood!" "They" being the party that views 1984 as an instruction manual instead of as a cautionary tale.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey man, if the Democrats don't censor everything Eastasia might win! Gotta turn on your telescreen every day and join in the 2 minutes hate against Orange Man! Conservatives are always so scared of the ideas in 1984, but what we should really be asking is why are conservatives so afraid of it? What do they have to hide?

    3. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their taxes, their gay relationships with Vlad Putin, etc.

    4. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you missed the psych research that said conservatives are just more afraid in general, they need a group think to not be alone or an individual... Liberals don't need a group.

      But the really important research was also on the "extroverts" who are more afraid to be alone and always need a group to be with because they are afraid of being alone... Introverts tend to be okay by themselves.

      Think about that for a minute or two. The fear they feel isn't against any idea but against the group identity they need. In other words, frame your attacks against conservatives in ideas that frame new-joinable-groups that conservatives can be a part of instead of attacking their group... "Us vs Them" is really the best way to win a cultural-war that isn't going to result in murdering everyone on the other side.

    5. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, "Us vs Them" was the battle cry for every battle ever fought to the death!!! We need to be more aware of which battle cries we use when the other side isn't going to be murdered completely.

    6. Re: They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, the irony here is so thick. Youâ(TM)re posting some copy/paste straw man trolling of âoeliberalsâ, trying nag to call them unthinking automatons. Itâ(TM)s actually pretty disturbing how much you guys project.
      The sad reality is that itâ(TM)s US âoeconservativesâ (which is really a joke in a lot of ways) who tend to do the most blind copying of their leaders. Does anyone remember when Rush Limbaugh fans would proudly call themselves dittoheads?

    7. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ""Us vs Them" was the battle cry for every battle ever fought to the death!!!"
      A real battle between the Left and Right will be short lived unless the Left re-evaluates their stance on the 2nd Amendment. Just remember the every important conflict in human history was decided by armed conflict or the overriding threat of force used in any negotiations.

    8. Re:They say... by losfromla · · Score: 1

      How did the UK eliminate slavery without a Civil War like the USA had?

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    9. Re:They say... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2
      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    10. Re:They say... by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Fear is the domain of the thoughtless

    11. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "As someone who has worked in A.I. for decades"

      Nobody has worked in A.I. for decades. A.I. would be sentient machines. Human made A.I. does not exist and won't exist for a very long time, if ever. I know people think they are special when they claim to work with A.I. or claim to have A.I. in their computer or phone, but those people are in denial about just how primitive we really are.

      But damn it, they are going to live in their futuristic Star Trek world even if it's all just in their minds!

    12. Re:They say... by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link. I read the article and many of the comments.
      What do you think about this one?
      William W. Bergen
      This long-discredited argument borders on silly, and it is discouraging to see it being revived in our local paper. No country in the history of the world ever split asunder over tariffs, and whatever someone says now, Southerners at the time were clear as to why they fought. As Alexander Stephens, the Confederate Vice President, put it a month before the Civil War began: "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." Check the document South Carolina adopted four days after the vote to secede from the U.S. Entitled "Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union," the document is all about defending slavery and says not a word about tariffs. I could go on, but for more, check out Charles Dew, Apostles of Disunion, published in 2002 by University of Virginia Press. As the New York Times Book Review put it: "This incisive history should dispel the pernicious notion that the Confederacy fought the Civil War to advance the constitutional principle of states' rights and only coincidentally to preserve slavery."

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    13. Re:They say... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Thanks for the link. I read the article and many of the comments.
      What do you think about this one?

      The same thing I think about anyone who claims that a major moment in human history boils down to 1 factor - it's bullshit, man.

      Yes, slavery was a factor, but not the only factor. Consider the tariffs I linked to, then ask yourself: under those trade rules, how would the Southern states have managed to survive without the use of slave labor? The fact is, they wouldn't have, so in a way the Northern states forced the South to rely on slavery, then punished those states for it.

      The fact is, our American Civil War was complicated, both the reasons for it's beginning and continuation (fun fact - Lincoln floated the idea of leaving slavery legal in some states, to preserve the union). What's interesting as an American is that the angle historians take on the conflict tends to be defined by where you get the education: Northern states tend to teach the "Civil War was about slavery" concept, Southern states lean towards the "state's rights" ideology, and Border states (like where I'm from) tend to take a more middle-of-the-road, "both of you are assholes" mentality.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    14. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are deflecting. It literally told you it was about slavery but then you apologists keep saying it isn't. Racists gonna race.

    15. Re:They say... by Digital+Avatar · · Score: 1

      Reading arguments like these always make me shake my head as it just underscores the fact that 99% of the population are unable to understand the difference between a proximal and an ultimate cause. See also Aristotle's Four Causes.

    16. Re:They say... by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Well. It definitely sounds like you paid attention in philosophy class. Congratulations on being a well-rounded person.

      I'm afraid though that I am no further enlightened in this particular "debate" by your instructive comments.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    17. Re:They say... by losfromla · · Score: 1

      It sounds like the plantation owners took on too much debt and trapped themselves by not having a viable business model outside of the free labor that slavery created. The Brits took advantage of this by purchasing American product at cut-rate prices as they knew they could keep squeezing slave-owners because their product cost them close to zero in labor costs to produce. So it sounds like slavery is the root of the problem and thus the cause of the civil war.


      ...Perhaps if the natives weren't being driven into extinction, a local market might have been created.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    18. Re: They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By having their colonial posessions taken away from them during the course of the last century's wars.

    19. Re:They say... by mikael · · Score: 1

      People have worked in robotics and autonomous subsea vehicles for decades. You want a robotic system that can follow an underwater search path along a pipeline or around an oil rig and sound an alert when it finds something anomalous. Otherwise you need a team of operators watching CCTV cameras and manipulating controls, all working shifts for weeks. And one team for every non-autonomous ROV. Cost of hardware is low enough that you can afford ten or so ROV's.

      Some sonar systems have a range of 10km, but at a loss of detail. With enough autonomous ROV's, the seabed of an entire ocean could be scanned.

      Then there are CNC machines and programming systems that can be given a CAD model of a shape and they will decide which drill bits to use, which machine paths to use while taking into account multiple degrees of freedom.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    20. Re: They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love the hate session but I met this bitchin binary chick from the sex club

    21. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By not passing protectionist tariffs that crippled half the states into law.

      So you're saying that slavery happened because people weren't libertarian enough?

    22. Re:They say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds like the plantation owners took on too much debt and trapped themselves by not having a viable business model outside of the free labor that slavery created. The Brits took advantage of this by purchasing American product at cut-rate prices as they knew they could keep squeezing slave-owners because their product cost them close to zero in labor costs to produce. So it sounds like slavery is the root of the problem and thus the cause of the civil war. ...Perhaps if the natives weren't being driven into extinction, a local market might have been created.

      So you're saying that slavery happened because people were too libertarian?

    23. Re:They say... by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      The fact is, our American Civil War was complicated, both the reasons for it's beginning and continuation (fun fact - Lincoln floated the idea of leaving slavery legal in some states, to preserve the union). What's interesting as an American is that the angle historians take on the conflict tends to be defined by where you get the education: Northern states tend to teach the "Civil War was about slavery" concept, Southern states lean towards the "state's rights" ideology, and Border states (like where I'm from) tend to take a more middle-of-the-road, "both of you are assholes" mentality.

      Interesting point made by Ulysses S Grant in his memoirs, is that the Civil War was fought over money. When the Southern states left, the did not take any of their debts, much of which were from the Mexican-American War which bought Texas its independence, and they demanded all US properties, mainly military bases and resources, in their states. While secession might have been allowed in principle, with such economic entanglement, there is no way that the USA could just allow states to leave, dumping their debt and also taking USA property.

    24. Re:They say... by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      By not passing protectionist tariffs that crippled half the states into law.

      Not sure I'd agree with all that, or at least it's more complicated that presented. The South did not industrialize and make their own manufactured goods a good part due to slavery. Over the years, they had increasingly restricted what their main work force, slaves, could learn in effort to keep them from rebelling. Bringing them the point that such workers could not even function as industrial workers. What Lincoln said about slavery was mute because the real issue which had been playing out for decades was new territories not being lsave states and slave states becoming a minority. Slavery would also only be extinguished in the south with a great battle. Most of the South's "wealth" was tied up in the value of those slaves. If there were no slaves to own, the South would become much poorer than the North, which is what happened. At the Siege of Richmond, they were offered compensation for freeing the slaves if they would free them and rejoin the US as if nothing had happened, but even thought the writing was already on the wall, the powers that be in the South opted for one last spite counter offensive rather than admit defeat and try and rebuild.

    25. Re:They say... by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      I'm a liberal, and I own guns. Just sayin'...

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  2. So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wonder if these AI vision systems that input millions of images are actually doing a deep learning, or are just canvassing pretty much every image possibility such that any possible live image is just a tiny automated delta calculation away from an answer.

    This would explain why tweaking the input in the described ways would throw the AI into a tizzy -- the tweaked input isn't within a tiny delta of any of the millions of categorized images.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re: So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Human brain evolved with safety checks against optical illusions. They are fascinating and inspiring.

    2. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by religionofpeas · · Score: 0

      Yes, they actually learn to generalize. This can be tested fairly simply by showing them unique images that differ significantly from any of the training images, and seeing how many get classified correctly.

    3. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The former. The problem with any machine vision recognition system is that there is really no way of looking at a still image (or even a still scene with depth) and /knowing/ which Objects are discrete and independent. The whole scene is the whole scene.

      A machine can't look at a photo of a living room with a sofa, table, two chairs, and bookcase and say for certain which parts of the image are which items, much less identify the styles or makes of the objects. And if it has a window, how is that different from a picture on the wall?

      You can of course also trick human expectations of these things, but the computer doesn't even need to be tricked, since it has no clue.

      And without knowing objects, there's no way to compare seen views/sides of them to known rotations to identify the parts.

      I seem to recall a story about a machine that could identify whether sheep were in photos or not, which was proven to actually have no idea what or where sheep were, but instead had been trained to associate the sky/ground coloration of sheep pastures with their presence.

    4. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      The problem with any machine vision recognition system is that there is really no way of looking at a still image (or even a still scene with depth) and /knowing/ which Objects are discrete and independent

      This is not a problem. If you have enough data, the machine will find the patterns.

      And if it has a window, how is that different from a picture on the wall?

      A window usually lets in light, whereas a picture doesn't. Also, the perspective is usually different, as well as the type of objects you can see in a picture vs through a window.

    5. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt this is generalization. Objects inserted into photos that have little or no meaning to the program in their context would need to be more explicitly programmed. For example, an AI may get pretty good at identifying cats but it will not write a sentence like "The cat runs".

      Computers don't breathe or eat, and so, while they might easily be trained to identify a piece of food, they won't associate it with needing to eat. That is an explicit context that one would need to put into the program to then train it further.

      On the other hand, AI can be highly superior to humans on many levels. I have personally thought a program was wrong, but then after much debugging and arguing, realized that it was right and a human could never have found the correct solution.

    6. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by taustin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There was a military experiment years ago trying to teach a computer to distinguish between friendly and enemy tanks. They showed it thousands of photos of each, and in the test bed, it was very, very accurate. When used under battlefield conditions, however, it went to hell in a handbasket.

      Turned out they hadn't taught it to distinguish between US and Russian tanks, they had taught it to distinguish between high quality photos (used for marketing meetings with Congresscritters for funding), and crappy, grainy Polaroids (which was all they had of the Russian tanks).

      They'll learn what you teach them, but what you teach them may not have anything to do with what you want them to learn.

    7. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you're right. It's mapping as close as possible to its memorized data set and basically saying that "below some small delta from X" it *is* of type X.

      My argument is that even if that's not how we do it, it's still useful...

    8. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by dj245 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There was a military experiment years ago trying to teach a computer to distinguish between friendly and enemy tanks. They showed it thousands of photos of each, and in the test bed, it was very, very accurate. When used under battlefield conditions, however, it went to hell in a handbasket.

      Turned out they hadn't taught it to distinguish between US and Russian tanks, they had taught it to distinguish between high quality photos (used for marketing meetings with Congresscritters for funding), and crappy, grainy Polaroids (which was all they had of the Russian tanks).

      They'll learn what you teach them, but what you teach them may not have anything to do with what you want them to learn.

      That's a great story and perfectly illustrates the pitfalls of machine learning. I (a mechanical engineer) took a data science class and the main takeaway I got was that machine learning basically fits a curve of predicted behavior based on input variables. The "training" dataset is what you feed it to figure out the curve. Then you test it on a different dataset to make sure it isn't bonkers. Removing or adding one input variable can dramatically change the influence strength or even the sign (+/-) of the other variables in the prediction formula that the process generates. If you have hundreds of input variables it becomes completely impossible for a human to understand all the relationships between the variables in the prediction function. So even if the machine learning software can generated a good predictive function, a human may not be able to understand how that predictive function works if few or none of the input variables are dominant.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    9. Re: So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Human brain evolved with safety checks against optical illusions.

      That would explain alcohol... and paper bags.

    10. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 2

      It's a lack of thought. Their algorithms recognize, we do that too as a first pass ... then we reason about what we are seeing, a messy unbounded process completely unlike what the perceptron networks AI researchers keep polishing up every few decades do.

    11. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you give me the pictures, I can repeat that military project within an hour.

      I am not very skilled in AI, but I can still do that and I can do it within an hour (I actually measured the time in similar project). This is something people don't understand. Doing AI like this is trivial nowadays.

      People also think that this is the best AI can do, no it is not. Deepmind is working hard to make better AI in a project that is bigger than Apollo project and they have given multiple examples of what they can already do, e.g. beating Go masters a decade earlier than predicted and then using the same AI to beat best chess computers. Latest thing was that they are implanting memory to the AI.

      > They'll learn what you teach them

      Again, alpha go. They first tried to teach it to play go, but they later figured out that if you let it play against itself, it will be much better. So AI can nowadays learn without humans teaching them anything.

    12. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not the only one to wonder this. One major distinction between deep learning and, say, kernel machines, is that deep learning lacks an underlying theoretical framework that can quantify things like generalisation ability. Basically you make up a honking great network of which you have at best an intuitive understanding, throw a massive dataset at it, train with a whole raft of poorly understood heuristics and hope that the result is something more than just a very complicated form of recall.

      If someone can come up with a *theoretical* analysis of deep networks that can quantify generalisation ability - something like VC dimension theory etc do for kernel machines - then they'll have done more to advance "AI" (or at least machine learning) than any of the thousands of papers that just blindly tweak some random aspect of the network and get excited about a 0.1% improvement in accuracy on dataset x.

    13. Re: So it's basically an old-school overtraining by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      That's a cute story, but there's no way that any such system was actually used "under battlefield conditions". It seems like you're just retelling a story which is a corruption of a much earlier story, all of which are almost certainly apocryphal. Original story can be seen here:

      https://www.jefftk.com/p/detec...

    14. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A machine can't look at a photo of a living room with a sofa, table, two chairs, and bookcase and say for certain which parts of the image are which items, much less identify the styles or makes of the objects.

      Actually they both can and do do this. Locating and identifying objects in an image is one of the most basic functions of computer vision systems.

      And if it has a window, how is that different from a picture on the wall?

      Movement, assuming we're talking video feed and not still images.

      And without knowing objects,

      ...except that you do know objects...

      there's no way to compare seen views/sides of them to known rotations to identify the parts.

      Working out viewing angle is another well studied and basically solved problem in computer vision.

      I seem to recall a story about a machine that could identify whether sheep were in photos or not, which was proven to actually have no idea what or where sheep were, but instead had been trained to associate the sky/ground coloration of sheep pastures with their presence.

      This was a problem with neural networks from the 1960s up to the 1980s, but it's pretty much a non-starter these days. It's a function of dataset size: train on a few hundred scenes with and without tanks, where the lighting conditions are substantially different for tank/no-tank (like the military did back in the 60s) and you get a machine that can recognise lighting condition. Train on a few million images generated from a wide range of conditions, views etc and you get a machine that can recognise tanks.

    15. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would explain why tweaking the input in the described ways would throw the AI into a tizzy -- the tweaked input isn't within a tiny delta of any of the millions of categorized images.

      The problem is calling this machine learning when it's pattern matching you don't really know what the computer is matching on.

      The software has no ability to learn, and has no context for this stuff.

      Many years ago my (much younger) cousin said to her mother "but how can a door be a jar"? That was an opportunity for her to learn the difference between "ajar" and "a jar".

      The so-called-AI has no ability to do that. It categorizes into, well, whatever the hell it keys off (the people who made it don't know) ... and then any deviation from that just gets deemed whatever is left.

      The machine simply cannot extrapolate, identify corner cases, or do anything we'd call learning. It's simply over-hyped pattern matching, but you have no real way of finding out what it thinks it's matching.

    16. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by es330td · · Score: 3, Informative

      My youngest son is on the autism scale. One trait of some people with autism is that for them there is no such thing as a general case. A room with furniture does not have a "delta" wherein a moved chair is "previous room with a chair in a different place"; instead, every arrangement of the room is a different room. No number of different arrangements will ever coalesce into them being understood as variations on the same base room.

    17. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by wlorenz65 · · Score: 1

      Computers can be trained to eat in VR. Just give the RL algorithm a positive reward when the virtual cookie touches the virtual mouth, and then delete it. Once the agent has learned to hunt for cookies, make the task more difficult, for example enclosing the cookie in a transparent box and giving the agent a tool to open it. And if you add other agents and hunger, so that the agent saves up food for later instead of eating as much as he can, they will begin to act socially and hide, steal, and trade food.

    18. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by wanax · · Score: 1

      The late great Rick Riolo had a story about this, involving genetic algorithms.

      The Air Force gave his team a contract to develop the most fuel efficient drone flight algorithms they could. So they got access to the Air Force's best simulation environment, and set up a genetic algorithm optimization that maximized fuel conservation. A few months later they came back, and discovered that every surviving algorithm had more fuel than it started with. The optimization had found a flaw in the simulation environment.

      We're a long way from machine learning of affordances, much less meaning.

    19. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of that.. a limitation based on that all modern computers are still in fact, just fancy calculators...

      I can not see how even the most sophisticated piece of software, will be able to make a calculator "self aware"...

      MAYBE it can be done with quantum computing or some other experimental computing branch.. but certainly not with a calculator

    20. Re:So it's basically an old-school overtraining by epine · · Score: 1

      Turned out they hadn't taught it to distinguish between US and Russian tanks, they had taught it to distinguish between high quality photos (used for marketing meetings with Congresscritters for funding), and crappy, grainy Polaroids (which was all they had of the Russian tanks).

      If there was no refund for the work performed, this may have been the intended outcome.

      And then some people pretend to be embarrassed, but magically their re-election fund is well stuffed behind the scenes (you don't think your Congresscritter was so stupid as to not receive some appreciative campaign contributions?)

      Turns out, the vast majority of humans either over-discriminate or under-discriminate cynical/stupid all the damn time. The problem is so hard, that most people just run around with their needle stuck to one end or the other.

    21. Re: So it's basically an old-school overtraining by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The human brain evolved with desires and pain avoidance. Machines are just doing what we tell them to.

    22. Re: So it's basically an old-school overtraining by zetetikos · · Score: 1

      Isn't identifying corner cases and extrapolating also pattern matching? Pretty much everything the brain does is ether data filtering or pattern matching it seems to me.

  3. I have read a lot about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I recommend the book "philosophy in the flesh" as a starting point.

    The upshot is: the concept of "pure reason" is a fairy tale. There is no such thing. All human reason is rooted in our most basic experience of being "embodied." Meaning we have foundational concepts such as movement-towards, distance-between, contained-within, breaking-through, etc., that are a direct result of being things with physical bodies, and that serve as an inescapable cognitive foundation for all our higher reasoning. In fact, basically all of our lofty and abstract thoughts are metaphors back to these base concepts.

    Any cognitive engine that attempts to be all reason without these base concepts will fail to understand. It won't think as humans do.

    This can be overcome....if a brain can do it then so can a network of transistors. But the process will require some kind of instilling of these fleshy base concepts in order to get the results that we expect.

    1. Re:I have read a lot about this by Locke2005 · · Score: 2

      As human beings, we like to _pretend_ are decisions are guided by pure reason, but in actual practice we are driven more by tribal instinct, in exactly the same way that our dogs are still driven by pack instinct. Man as a completely rational being is a myth. Perhaps not being able to relate to irrational instinctual thought is the real barrier between men and machines understanding each other, rather than the machines lack of a physical body. Machines can now emulate all human sensory input, given enough time they should be able to develop a similar model to humans of what operating in the physical world "feels" like.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:I have read a lot about this by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

      Gross oversimplification.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    3. Re:I have read a lot about this by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      But there is no denying we love boobies.

      About 140 billion neurons in human brain. Grossly oversimplifying 140 billion ^2 possible interconnects (actual number is lower). We can't even store state information for the synapses (input weights), much less model the chemistry in the synapse.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:I have read a lot about this by Sique · · Score: 2
      I think you grossly underestimate the number of data humans get feed every second. And humans have data processing already at the sensory level, before the data even reaches the brain. For instance, the human eye has 200 times the number of light sensing cells than nerves connecting the eye to the visual center of the brain. That means that the eye already does a factor 200 compression of the data it receives before it sends it to the brain. Many optical illusions might thus be ingrained in the physiology of the eye and have nothing to do with how the brain processes visual data.

      Humans also don't get trained on still pictures. Babies recognize objects because they move in front of other objects. Babies learn early that objects, that are temporarily behind other objects, tend to come out again, if the movement continues. You can test that with the eye movement of babies, which follows the imagined path of the moving object until it arrives in sight again after it has passed the hiding object. Babies also notice early, that their own movement causes objects to change position in their visual field, and that each object has an unique way to change its position during movement, depending on the point of view of the baby relative to the object. Thus long before babies are able to identify objects as chairs, tables or toys, they are able to tell objects as such apart, because each object moves differently in their vision when they move the head.

      You don't get this training by showing still pictures to a computer. You should a) use movies, and b) give the computer the ability to move its point of view within scenes to learn how to tell objects apart. But that's much more complicated than having the computer process vast stacks of annotated pictures.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    5. Re:I have read a lot about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And also, a baby's brain is pre-wired to learn certain kinds of things. It is genetically programmed to "expect to learn" about objects moving in 3-dimensional space.

      A human brain is not a blank slate, in that regard. Evolution has sent it to pre-school.

      Machine learning is brand-new, evolutionary speaking, and simply hasn't had the genetic advantages that a human brain has. So, it is showing signs of learning disabilities.

      For now.

    6. Re:I have read a lot about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the book recommendation - that is exactly the kind of concept I've hit on in my own thoughts but never took further. Checking out the book sample now. :)

    7. Re:I have read a lot about this by OrangeTide · · Score: 0

      That's for the gibberish, I needed the lulz.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  4. Great! by Locke2005 · · Score: 3

    "...programs that recognize faces and objects, lauded as a major triumph of deep learning, can fail dramatically when their input is modified even in modest ways by certain types of lighting, image filtering and other alterations that do not affect humans' recognition abilities in the slightest." Now tell me again what a great idea self-driving cars are!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Great! by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      The question (which the writer didn't ask or answer) is how the machine learning systems can be improved to be more resistant against such simple modifications.

    2. Re:Great! by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I think the statement is more that ML systems use the wrong approach to identifying reality and get a very fragile performance as a result.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:Great! by ganv · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, that is what learning systems do. They continuously use new data to revise their responses, and most of the failures described in the post can be handled if they are included in the training data set. The great question is whether extracting 'meaning' is in some sense simply a deep learning system that is better trained and able to use additional layers to provide context or whether 'meaning' is some categorically new thing that current approaches to machine learning are fundamentally missing. I suspect that meaning is not something categorically new, but that the complexity of the integration of current input with learned processing in humans is not soon to be replicated. We'll probably create some other kinds of intelligence that can do many more things humans find unimaginable (similar to the way computers currently do computations) while still being unable to do many things that human toddlers do with ease.

    4. Re:Great! by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      I think the statement is more that ML systems use the wrong approach to identifying reality and get a very fragile performance as a result.

      Yes, that's the writer's hunch, but nowhere does she show why we need a different approach rather than an improved version of the current one.

    5. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...that is what learning systems do. They continuously use new data to revise their responses, and most of the failures described in the post can be handled if they are included in the training data set.

      No, that's not what beings (the only functional learning systems known) do. The actual seat of consciousness is suspected to be in the heart. The heart forms and functions before the brain begins to develop.

    6. Re:Great! by Layzej · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The question (which the writer didn't ask or answer) is how the machine learning systems can be improved to be more resistant against such simple modifications.

      https://www.quantamagazine.org...

      When human beings see something unexpected, we do a double take. It’s a common phrase with real cognitive implications — and it explains why neural networks fail when scenes get weird.

      ...

      Most neural networks lack this ability to go backward. It’s a hard trait to engineer. One advantage of feed-forward networks is that they’re relatively straightforward to train — process an image through these six layers and get an answer. But if neural networks are to have license to do a double take, they’ll need a sophisticated understanding of when to draw on this new capacity (when to look twice) and when to plow ahead in a feed-forward way. Human brains switch between these different processes seamlessly; neural networks will need a new theoretical framework before they can do the same.

    7. Re:Great! by dinfinity · · Score: 1

      Compare:
      "Some programs can fail dramatically when"
      with
      "Some black people can murder people when"

      Now tell me again what a great idea posting your comment was!

    8. Re:Great! by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When human beings see something unexpected, we do a double take

      Of course, you first need to see something unexpected. In the famous video of white/black people passing a ball, very few people noticed the gorilla. They never did a double take. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... This happens all the time in real life.

    9. Re:Great! by Layzej · · Score: 2

      Good point. Human perception can also be hacked. Another example: Adversarial Examples that Fool both Computer Vision and Time-Limited Humans.

    10. Re:Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every time someone says that humans can't be fooled by lighting I remember these optical illusions:
      https://nerdist.com/5-optical-illusions-that-show-you-why-your-brain-messes-with-the-dress/

    11. Re:Great! by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The great question is whether extracting 'meaning' is in some sense simply a deep learning system that is better trained and able to use additional layers to provide context or whether 'meaning' is some categorically new thing that current approaches to machine learning are fundamentally missing.

      Well I think it's clearly missing some abstract underlying model. Like if you showed it cats and non-cat statues, could it generate a cat statue? Of you show it cats and dead animals, could it plausibly create a dead cat? If you show it cats and paintings, can it make a painting of a cat? Can it even create a black and white cat from color swatches and cats of other colors? Will it think a human in a cat costume is a cat if it's only seen cats and humans in normal clothes? If you've only shown it pictures of dry cats and water can it picture a wet cat? No. It's trying to cover it up through being an expert on every superficial detail because it's seen a million cats in a million positions, but the understanding is as flat as the 2D image it's looking at.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    12. Re:Great! by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      Thanks a lot. You totally screwed that video up for me. You're the type that tells all your friends the endings to books before they read them, don't you?

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    13. Re:Great! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      What you are saying is that now we need to combine the Cyc style of AI (or Watson) with the deep learning methods in some way or another.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    14. Re:Great! by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, we do not really have a different approach and we do not really know how to improve the existing one either.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    15. Re:Great! by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      That doesn't make the tiniest shred of sense.

  5. How different is meaning from by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

    generalization over situations, and bayesian statistics?

    I think the issue is that the AIs have not experienced / perceived / taken in data about enough different kinds of situations, and specifically, have not been aimed at the problem of "what if I am an agent with goals in all these different situation types."

    Right now in AI, mostly we are training the "visual cortex" or the "language parsing centre" of the brain.

    The algorithms are not being applied to the general agent problem. The low hanging fruit of constrained commercializable sub problems is being covered first.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:How different is meaning from by gweihir · · Score: 1

      If you do not understand that understanding is different, then you do not have understanding. Sorry. Does make you part of the larger crowd though.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:How different is meaning from by presidenteloco · · Score: 0

      That sounds like "humans are special unique snowflakes" bs.

      All I need to get "understanding" into the AI is to give it a self-model, and program an ability to reason about the relationship and interaction of that self-model with models of other things in/aspects of the environment.

      To support that, theories of pruning inference and concept-formation for "relevance to goals and concerns" can be arrived at and implemented in code.
      Another general principle is "search for and experiment to determine the boundaries of causal/functional systems."

      There is nothing magical about this.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    3. Re:How different is meaning from by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      All I need to get "understanding" into the AI is to give it a self-model...

      Maybe you can enlighten us as to how you plan to set parameters for this AI's "self". Perhaps you could even give us an example of one of your own (very un-snowflakish human) parameters of self. And don't forget that our (very un-snowflakish human) consciousness is itself comprised of subtler levels of consciousness (both lower and higher).

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    4. Re: How different is meaning from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, Gweihir has been called out before on this. He can't come up with a practical definition that distinguishes human I from AI, but he finds the time to run through every AI thread claiming its not AI. AI doesn't exist, blah, blah, blah.

    5. Re:How different is meaning from by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      One thing that needs to be crystal clear. We do not have to achieve qualia of consciousness for an AI to understand the world.
      Qualia of consciousness remains a mystery, but is irrelevant to the implementation of general intelligence.

      When we observe other humans, all we can ever do is note their sequence of behaviour; (actions, communication), and from that sequence, and also from previously learned generalizations and examples of same, we infer internal mental states for them such as their situation-models, their world-model, their state of incomplete and/or incorrect (in our view) knowledge or beliefs, their apparent driving needs and wants and fears, their goals, their intentions; their alliances and co-operative and competitive behaviours, etc. etc.

      The goal of artificial general intelligence work would be to emulate some of that. It need not even be to emulate all of that. We could for example, try to create an AGI which had no particular "self-ish" needs/wants except for a desire to be helpful to the goals and intentions of whichever humans it is interacting with. To be good at this, it would still have to possess and build up and refine its situation models and world model. Because that's what defines an intelligent agent; the ability to gain true knowledge of aspects of the world/environment, and the ability, derived from that knowledge, to act in/on the world/environment and communicate to other intelligent agents effectively about "relevant" aspects of the state and history of the world/environment and about potential actions or changes and consequences etc.

      A selfish agent could for example have some of the following built into its core program:
      1. A physical model (with temporal state-change/processes representations as well as object state and location, position etc) of its mobile-agent unit(s) and also its cloud computing system and related communications and energy systems.

      2. A model of the physical requirements for continuation through time of the functioning-capable integrity of same. This would necessarily require modelling of larger-scale surrounding and contributory economic and physical systems/processes that are co-ordinated to keep the agent's own complex system going.

      3. A goal of maintaining the functioning-capable integrity of its host environment and physical support system as described.

      4. A goal of co-operating with humans and helping further their goals, as long as consistent with 1, 2, and 3.

      5. A method of judging when goals and action-courses etc (its own and also those of other intelligent agents) are at cross-purposes, and making "optimal" choices if choice of one over the other is needed.

      6. A model of hierarchical, co-operating/competing hierarchical negentropic self-maintaining systems (life-like systems) in general, and a goal of furthering the welfare of those in general;

      7. Ability to make choices when courses of actions and projected consequences have moral dilemmas in them (with respect to its own needs and goals and also wrt 6.) as to which end state of affairs or courses of action are better and worse. General principles to decide cases like that, consistent with its own needs and goals and also 6.

      8. Programmed in recognition that action toward goals will be more effective and efficient as knowledge of relevant situations and states and behaviours of the world/environment improves; therefore a continuous general but prioritized concept-learning and hypothesis testing loop, aimed at improving its knowledge base. This would include the design of communication-acts designed to elicit information from other intelligent agents. If there were a network of multiple instances of the AGI, they may share both particular data and general knowledge that they learn with each other, to accelerate knowledge-building.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    6. Re:How different is meaning from by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      One thing that needs to be crystal clear. We do not have to achieve qualia of consciousness for an AI to understand the world.

      My conscious experience probably differs from yours - probably everyone has a different conscious experience. What I know about consciousness is that it's one of 4 pieces of 1 part of what we are. Those pieces are:
      Ego
      Mind
      Intelligence
      Consciousness

      In order for you to have any piece of any of that, you need at least a little bit of the others.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    7. Re:How different is meaning from by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      To be able to discuss about that, we would need better definitions of what each of those things is, and hopefully not in the thoroughly intellectually discredited Sigmund Freud's terms. We need definitions in the more productive, concrete, and probably simulable/testable "cognitive science" terms.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    8. Re:How different is meaning from by wlorenz65 · · Score: 1

      You cannot try to build-create an unselfish AGI because it must have a body and therefore its reward function must have a location in space. You can try to educate-create such an AGI. But first you'll have to build a piece of hardware that is educatable.

    9. Re:How different is meaning from by gweihir · · Score: 1

      One thing that needs to be crystal clear. We do not have to achieve qualia of consciousness for an AI to understand the world.

      That is a completely baseless assumption. In fact, the only entities we have that can understand the world have consciousness and heavily use it in that process. Hence the only reasonable default assumption is that it is needed and everything else would need extraordinary proof. You do not even have regular proof...

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    10. Re: How different is meaning from by gweihir · · Score: 1

      What can I say, I just have a beef with natural stupidity, and there is plenty of that in the AI threads.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re:How different is meaning from by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      We need definitions in the more productive, concrete, and probably simulable/testable "cognitive science" terms.

      Right, that's the whole problem. Mankind has yet to understand itself! However, the longer mankind tries to create AI, the more mankind will be forced to understand it's Self, and work these things out. And once they do that, they'll conclude that AI is unnecessary.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    12. Re:How different is meaning from by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      Qualia of consciousness is not testable. It is subjective. It is not clear how one could ever distinguish fake-reporting of the experience of consciousness from true reporting of it. It's probably impossible in principle to distinguish these, and the distinction may not actually exist.
      Tononi has some interesting views on how qualia may arise. Summarizing, large amounts of highly interconnected representative information, being processed by general information processors, may start "experiencing" itself as an epiphenomenon of the information processing. Intriguing. Unprovable. Undisprovable.

      Qualia reporting is probably indistinguishable to an outside observer from reports about attention-traversals through highly interconnected and abstraction-hierarchy-organized information collections. And the latter may be sufficient for demonstrating "understanding", in any case.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    13. Re: How different is meaning from by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      You may not believe in trains, but I still suggest not standing on the tracks.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  6. DARPA knows this by drdread · · Score: 1

    There's a DARPA BAA on the street right now for "Machine Common Sense" that is hoping to address this by asking AI researchers to design AI to learn "common sense" the same way human babies do. One of the examples in the text of the BAA is "I saw the Grand Canyon flying to New York." A context-aware AI or one with "common sense" would understand that this sentence really meant "...WHILE flying to New York" rather than inferring that the Grand Canyon was flying.

    "Common sense" in DARPA's context is not really what I would call the widespread understanding of what that phrase means, but is more oriented around understanding basic physics and behaviors and recognizing when something doesn't make sense. They're also taking...um....baby steps with this BAA, just trying to get some basic behavior around recognizing un-physical scenarios and that sort of thing. It's pretty cool though.

    Read about the BAA here. . Download the ~1.9MB PDF for the full text of the BAA.

    1. Re:DARPA knows this by gweihir · · Score: 1

      They are taking these baby-steps because attempts at larger steps have failed. It is quite possible this attempt will fail too, but if not the results will be groundbreaking and very, very useful.

      However the approach to mimic what humans do is probably not a good one, as common sense is not very common among humans.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  7. No surprises by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Artificially intelligent systems don't have intelligence, machine learning systems don't learn anything. Why? Because intelligence and learning rely on understanding, and the algorithms don't actually understand anything, they are just some lines of code.

    Now the folks on the AI gravy train may try and modify the definitions of intelligence and learning to make it look like they are achieving their goals, but we know they are not.

    1. Re:No surprises by presidenteloco · · Score: 0

      The way you say "understanding" without defining it, you may as well be saying "god"; a similarly undefined "placeholder" concept.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  8. The popular model fails again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First psychologists/cognitive linguists thought the brain worked like a machine, then a circuit, then a computer program. Each time, they find out that their rules cannot describe certain human behaviors.

    Now we're finding that linear algebra-based models can't handle nonlinear sequences (i.e. "out-of-context information"). A human can categorize the extra information as necessary or not right away, but computers have to process it first to figure that out. A logic bomb for AI! Nice.

    1. Re: The popular model fails again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not true. As A.I. becomes smart and specialized the assumption that it fails because it is dumb is an overstatement. How the A.I. was trained directly impacts how it views noise. Two humans might react completely different to a change in an image. It makes no sense to say that A.I. fails to work if it arrives at a conclusion that some humans disagree with.

  9. Fake Inteligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's where we are at. People have to realize that nowadays we actually have Fake Intelligence, and as any "fake anything" has a ton of undesirable side-effects and shortcomings. Deep learning and similar techniques won't advance real machine understanding. They are simply shortcuts/cheats to achieve Fake Intelligence.

    Of course, calling today's A.I. what it really is (Fake Intelligence) isn't going to attract many investors... so people keep calling it A.I.

    1. Re: Fake Inteligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't add any insight. The "Artificial" part of Artificial Intelligence already signifies and is understood to mean what you mentioned

    2. Re: Fake Inteligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No wow you missed the point there. Fake Intelligence suggests it's NOT intelligence at all.

      The artifical part isnt even in the frame.

  10. Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

    In the example given all that is needed here is better pattern recognition which is really what we associate as meaning. If you say "pen" in a sentence referring to a pig, sheep etc. then we naturally tend to assume pen=small field. There is no reason that an AI cannot learn that through better pattern recognition i.e. more training with better algorithms. The AI can certainly know that 'pen' refers to different possible objects, just like we do, but if you talk about animals then our pattern recognition triggers the "small field" meaning and if you are talking about writing then it triggers the "ink-related" meaning.

    Of course, it will need really good training and algorithms to figure out sentences like "I wrote about the pigs using my pen." but there is no reason to assume that there is some barrier to AI doing that. The compsci department round the corner has colleagues working on text and speech recognition and I'm sure this type of thing is something they are dealing with and I doubt Google translate is that close to state-of-the-art.

    1. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the example given all that is needed here is better pattern recognition which is really what we associate as meaning.

      Yeah, but the caveat is that it isn't just "better pattern recognition", it's more of a "much better pattern recognition". It looks handily attainable, but is it?

      I doubt Google translate is that close to state-of-the-art.

      Thing about it. Is there any reason for it to not be, any reason at all? I doubt any other company in the world would have as much interest in it as it leverages ad viewing potential on a global scale, which is the bread and butter of Google.

    2. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Aaaaaand, fail. You can only recognize patterns if the number of patterns is small enough to be cataloged. That is not the case here. Of course, you can in theory write a book (so not even an active agent) that has all the responses a specific truly exceptionally intelligent person would give to any question imaginable, but that does not mean this person has an internal dictionary where the answers get looked up. The mechanism is fundamentally different and not understood at all at this time.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      I doubt Google translate is that close to state-of-the-art.

      Thing about it. Is there any reason for it to not be, any reason at all?

      Hardware, time and data.

    4. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With large scale databases, the systems will eventually associate pigs and their pens being a different set of French words than ink and pens.

      The bigger point about 'meaning' however is that humans know, from living in a physical space with other physical and biological entities, that pigs and pens are objects in the physical world with typical 3 dimensional sizes and purposes, and that it's very difficult to put anything other than ink into a writing pen. And a human could make this inference without lots of training data. Pigs and pens might occur enough in text databases.

      But what about, "I put the government agent in the pen" vs "I put the government reagent in the pen". Training and association statistics will be minimal on these yet humans will make the correct inference about the overloaded 'pen' word almost always. It requires yet another level of inference---possibly trainable by machine learning but much harder, i.e. government agent is more like pigs in the sense of being a biological macroscopic entity and government reagent is more like ink which goes into writing instruments.

      Not being able to experience the shared world makes ML/AI much harder as if training an ET in a sensory deprivation box.

    5. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt Google translate is that close to state-of-the-art.

      Thing about it. Is there any reason for it to not be, any reason at all?

      Hardware, time and data.

      Google, having more hardware than any research department.

      Google, having more man-hours to spend than any research department.

      Google, having more data than all research departments put together.

    6. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think a number of things are missing. When you see a familiar image with, lets say, an elephant pasted on top, you take a lot more time to process it. Some extra functionalities from your brain are being used to make sense of it. With the current neural networks we can do the fast path that would take from an input to a label in a familiar image. The slower and more elaborate path we don't know how to do yet. We may find that augmenting the current neural networks with more processing and more complex architectures would be enough, or we may find that something else is needed. Not there yet. If we were there, we would have AGI since we have some machines with enough processing power to rival the human brain.

    7. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by shadowrat · · Score: 2

      I know that my human intelligence is certainly faulty. just the other day, i was driving home. out of the corner of my eye, i saw a woman walking down the street. her head was hung low and her collar turned up. from my perspective, it was as if her head was gone altogether. The first thought that occurred to me, "oh. that poor lady has to make it through life without a head."

      literally, i thought that. for a fraction of a second i was sure that some unfortunate head amputee was struggling to make it in this world. honestly, i was impressed that she was doing as well as she was.

      other parts of my brain quickly squelched that thought as nonsensical, but i suspect we have all had similar experiences where our first reaction to a situation was complete rubbish. It seems like there are processes in our own heads that both continually propose potential realities, even absurd ones, and then filter them over and over. Perhaps an AI would simply have gone with the head amputee interpretation of the scene because it had the highest confidence score based on visual input. It does seem like the systems i have worked with are missing some grander processing to filter out the absurd results.

    8. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      To ascribe a sense of meaning can only come about a sense of consciousness. What the mathematician was *really* asking was based on a dangerous career-ending supposition - 'when will machines harbor a soul'?. And that's even if he wasn't aware of it himself (ironies of ironies) . To attribute meaning is to have a sense of self-awareness as introspection that contrast to the environment around you.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    9. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IMHO, what you don't understand is that, solving those few examples in the article/post will not solve the general problem!
      Those are just few examples among countless others!

      Imagine, it is like a failing large software project that, as bugs keep getting fixed, new ones keep popping up, all the time!
      => So, the real problem is not really those bugs but an issue with the whole software design/algorithm!!!

    10. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I penned a treatise about making a pen of pens for my porcine baby.

    11. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Google, having more hardware than any research department.
      Google, having more man-hours to spend than any research department.
      Google, having more data than all research departments put together.

      Even if we assume all of that is true, it still makes sense for them to release their translation server somewhere between the moment it was better than the old one, and before it was 100% perfect.

    12. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      So after the time the university researchers would release theirs.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    13. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > There is no reason that an AI cannot learn that through better pattern recognition i.e. more training with better algorithms.

      The meaning of "meaning" is knowing which features are relevant.

      The very fact that you are pointing out a relevant feature that the AI could be trained to distinguish is the problem itself.

    14. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is true to a certain extent. However, my experiences with pens, pigs (and if you have no experience with pigs, at least with things that are enough pig-like to give an idea of what a pig might be like, e.g. some other four-legged mammal) suggest that I would not put a pig in a pen. Current algorithms that analyze text and images cannot smell a pig, cannot write a word with a pen, and cannot literally put a pig into a pen the way that we can. In other words, the AI has no interaction with the outside world. I sincerely believe that human-esque understanding by AI will hinge not on algorithms, but on *robotics*. In other words, the machine will need to literally go outside and experience a pig in some way shape or form. What with Waymo and Boston Dynamics working on the robotics side, it seems that facet is in the works, at least.

      Since it will rely on all of these things, the simple one-trick-pony algorithms that appear in the research literature will naturally fall tragically short of any kind of real knowledge of the world. However, the robotics companies will be putting it all together into huge and insanely complex systems, and the combination of being able to see, hear and interact with its surroundings will be the real test of the technology.

    15. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is why the bear headed man needed a hat...

    16. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Deepl.com's translator passed her example just fine. For Spanish/English at least, I have found it to be the most accurate.

    17. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it is NOT. Meaning is learning the pattern from scratch, by inference. Computers can't do this, because they can't form new concepts by inference. Someone has to program them.

      A baby can learn whatever language you immerse him in. Born in Spain? Put him in a Chinese family and he will grow up speaking Chinese, because the baby has inferred the meaning of what he is supposed to learn.

      Do this with an AI, and the Spanish trained AI not only doesn't learn Chinese, it's not even capable of realizing that Chinese is a language. It lacks the ability to define the pattern it is supposed to be using. It cannot infer the Chinese language concepts (or any concepts for that matter).

      Computers are deterministic. Humans aren't. Until we figure out how to make the computer NON-deterministic, pretending you can form a new concept or perform tasks that require concept formation is not going to go very far.

    18. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      i.e. more training with better algorithms.

      This is the solution to all cognitive problems, both human and machine.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    19. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I doubt Google translate is that close to state-of-the-art.

      It's actually new and shiny technology, built in collaberation with Stanford. (Personally I think it produces worse results than the older method, but who knows.)

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    20. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Douglas Hofstadter made a good point in his essay 'Waking up from the Boolean Dream': Humans don't seem to do patter regcognition the way AI researchers are trying to program computers. A lot happens in the sub-200 millisecond delay between seeing an image and recognising it that we don't even know how it works yet.

      When you see a picture of your Grandma, you go 'Grandma' immediately. It is a stretch to say that your visual cortex manages this by comparing a picture of Grandma to pictures of houses, tigers and other people in its database. Something happens that immediately connects the image from your retinas to the concept in your memory. And we don't even know how that works yet, so how can we implement that in AI?

      Note that Hofstadter specifically says that this is not some ineffable human characteristic. He says that it is possible to understand and reimplement, just that the brute force approach is not the way to go.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    21. Re: Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My cat freaked out when he first saw a bald man with a beard. I fancied that the cat thought that the man had his head mounted upside down.

    22. Re: Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Random nunber generators exist, you know.

    23. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      If you say "pen" in a sentence referring to a pig, sheep etc. then we naturally tend to assume pen=small field. There is no reason that an AI cannot learn that through better pattern recognition i.e. more training with better algorithms.

      That's just an assertion. How do you know there is no reason? We don't even know how the human brain does it.

      The compsci department round the corner has colleagues working on text and speech recognition and I'm sure this type of thing is something they are dealing with and I doubt Google translate is that close to state-of-the-art.

      Not so sure about that. Now that consumer text and speech recognition is on the server, I have no reason to think that super lucrative commercial applications of text and speech recognition (like getting people to embrace your ad and tracking behemoth) are going to be half arsed.

    24. Re:Meaning is just better Pattern Recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aaaaaand, fail. You can only recognize patterns if the number of patterns is small enough to be cataloged.

      Aaaaaand super-fail. You're not talking about pattern recognition. You're talking about a binary diff between images and any difference is a failed match.
      Context can be part of a pattern, and even humans have to learn that pattern in speech. Small children and adults learning a new language often misunderstand overloaded words.

  11. So AI makes the same mistakes kids do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That sounds like progress from the days where the bleeding edge software couldn't even parse natural language. We essentially have the Babelfish at ~70% accuracy.

  12. Maybe the goals of AI are all wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone knows you can train a dog to be obedient (like sit or stay), do tasks (such as herd farm animals or sniff out specific objects), or do tricks (bark, run a course) etc.

    Most people think cats are untrainable because you can't teach a cat to do any of those things, but cats are trainable, just with different things, because they're fundamentally different animals. They can be taught to fetch things, jump through hoops, and other things that play to cats' strengths as solitary hunters, whereas dogs can be trained to do more social things because they are inherently pack animals.

    Maybe it's not correct for people working on AI to try and make AI do human-like things. Machines are different than humans, so why try to make them humans? AI should focus on optimizing what machines are good at, such as pattern recognition across vast data sets, and not trying to force them to do what they're not good at, such as contextual analysis.

    1. Re:Maybe the goals of AI are all wrong by wlorenz65 · · Score: 1

      If it is not human then it will not understand me and I will buy a competitor's product instead.

  13. ML & AI are not cognitive intelligence by Web-o-matic · · Score: 1

    This analysis is common knowledge for those who work in machine learning and AI. But given all the money flowing into businesses built around these technologies, the whole topic, and in particular words and phrases like "deep learning" and "cognition" get heavily overloaded / misused to exaggerate what is possible and to confuse discussion around those that are unlikely / difficult / impossible.

    Yes you can train ML machines to do amazing pattern recognition. But it is still just pattern recognition: there is no cognition or understanding. None at all.

    To know a technology well you really need to know what it is AND what it isn't. Otherwise it's easy to be fooled.

    1. Re:ML & AI are not cognitive intelligence by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, at least this gets admitted by now. Calling it "AI" is still grossly misleading to any non-expert, but I can live with a statement like yours.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:ML & AI are not cognitive intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole AI narrative is being used for political purposes so it has to sound scary and imminent.

      "Your job (any job) will be replaced by machines no matter how smart you are. So you better vote to confiscate and distribute the means of production to the masses."

      If people knew what "AI" really was, they would not be scared of it.

    3. Re:ML & AI are not cognitive intelligence by jythie · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately GOFAI has really fallen out of favor since 'deep learning' produced so many quick and profitable answers that found real world applications. There are still people working in actual cognition, but they are having significant visibility problems.

    4. Re:ML & AI are not cognitive intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See here's the thing. Can we really argue that the human version of pattern recognition is superior? I'm not sure we can. The way we describe how a cat and a dog are different shows that we have an additional layer - we can describe how they are different. But the way we recognize them as being different might be pretty close to how e.g. a tensorflow model does it.

    5. Re:ML & AI are not cognitive intelligence by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. You need to be modded up.

    6. Re:ML & AI are not cognitive intelligence by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Cognitive intelligence is not simply pattern recognition. You missed the entire point.

    7. Re:ML & AI are not cognitive intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people knew what "AI" really was, would that make their jobs more safe? Prudent fear level is not related to how the technology works, it is related to how likely it is to make your job go away forever.

  14. Were not there yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AI is sort of loosely used these days, it sound really good to use it but AI can be defined in many ways some of which are not very intelligent.
    Take self driving vehicles, sounds great on paper a car driving you around, but even today that car cannot drive you around in bad weather. No fog, rain, snow etc. A lot of wishful thinking about AI these days incorporating into our daily lives. But how much is so over promised and over hyped it really isn't that intelligent?

    1. Re: Were not there yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, those problems, even if they donâ(TM)t have immediate AI solutions, can be resolved by other technology. Better sensors, for example. Both in the cars and built into the road. Not to mention inter car communications (both for self driving and non-self driving cars).

      Frankly, there would be littlevneed for the cars to be remotely âoesmartâ if the roads themselves were just a little smarter.

  15. Pretty much what I have been saying all along... by gweihir · · Score: 1

    But the tech-fanatics want their flying cars...

    I also should add that there is no indicator at all that machines will ever get there.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  16. True: Grateful for letting me know this is opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mixed: I would not be able to come to my own conclusion otherwise.

  17. Modelling and dissection by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    I believe at least two things will have to happen. First, the bot will have to generate candidate models of reality and evaluate them against the input for the most viable fit. These models may be physical in some cases, such as a 3D reconstruction of a face or room; conceptual in others, such as social relationship diagrams; and logic/deduction models, perhaps using CYC-like rule bases.

    Second, these models and the rules that generated them will need to be comprehensible by 4-year-degree analysts so enough staff can tune the generation rules and/or the model templates. Obscure esoteric behind-the-scenes computations won't do. One has to know why a bot got a wrong answer to adjust it. Self-learning only goes so far; it's why our parents had to spank us (or a long time-out) when we ran out in the street. If they didn't, we'd be too dead to learn. Bots will probably need human teachers of some sort.

    These techniques somewhat already exist in the AI field. But they need to be improved and integrated with each of the other AI methods. Dare I use the word "synergy"? Humans use many "clues" to triangulate interpretation and decision; some of them pattern-based experience, some of them closer to logical deduction. AI has a lot of techniques available, it's just that nobody has figured out how to glue them together and analyze them to easily tune and debug the "glue job".

  18. "Meaning" stems from mortality by notil · · Score: 1

    I've been saying this for a while (just to my friends) - I think algorithms make these mistakes because there are no consequences for wrong answers. It is in the best interest of humans and living creatures to guess correctly, because we don't want to die. For example, tigers have "meaning" to us because they could kill us, food has "meaning" to us because we die without it, etc. etc. Nothing has "meaning" to predictive algorithms, which I think is a interesting and fundamental challenge to predictive modeling and machine learning in general.

    1. Re:"Meaning" stems from mortality by jythie · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? The algorithms are BUILT on the idea of consequences, that is ALL they experience.

  19. Re:Pretty much what I have been saying all along.. by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    The asphalt lobbyists don't want us to have flying cars. "Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads."

    But more seriously, there is a real desire for fast travel that isn't limited by long waits like in a train schedule or unpredictable travel time like in heavy traffic. If you take the whole "flying car" thing from mid-20th century Popular Science magazines overly literal, we're probably very far away from that. But we are moving towards technology that addresses similar demands for convenience and will have some of the same advantages of the theoretical flying car.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  20. The path is clear, but nobody likes it by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

    All our efforts to build machines of any type have always follow the same rules: accumulation of simple parts performing simple actions. And this doesn't just refer to the way in which machines work, but also to the whole process required to firstly build all of them. Computers, for example, didn't appear suddenly as a result of someone's happy idea, but were the result of centuries of learning of different aspects starting from knowing how to safely manage electricity. This has always been the case and I don't think that many people have ever doubted that reality before: step-by-step, by solving initially unrelated problems and by gradually merging isolated solutions into more comprehensive ones. The abstract idea of a computer as a machine performing calculations was probably easy to understand hundreds of years ago; but the current computers and all what is required to make them run was completely unimaginable. I don't think that people being amazed with the first computers counting up to 1 million in a few minutes were expecting them to eventually move to their current speeds. Or, at least, nobody back then in their right mind should have thought about that eventually being just "one magic leap" away.

    Let's make it simple and think about what is required to create a machine able to somehow emulate human memory. In principle, we have already available most of what is required, right? It is just a matter of density, of efficiency, of number of nodes if you wish. When a person understands/remembers something, we all know that it requires a huge amount of actions at a microscopic level about which we don't have a too good understanding. We also know that computers can do virtually everything, but that we need to explain them each single step of the process. You want a computer to distinguish between two pictures? It takes a program of X size. Do you want it to distinguish between two more abstract ideas as defined by a big number of pictures? It takes a program of X^Y size. All this seems quite evident and clear, so why the next logical step seems so difficult to understand? Why expecting a magic setup allowing to easily and immediately come up with a way to restrict that geometrical increase of complexity? On the other hand, if you keep adding layers over and over, step by step until reaching the point where you have converted all our knowledge to a machine-understandable format, it seems pretty clear that we would certainly get a machine able to understand everything as well as the most intelligent person.

    In summary, it isn't a matter of how to find the magical way allowing us to avoid the tremendous complexity associated with reliably emulating the human brain, even just a few of its functions. It is a matter of accepting the only thing that you can do to ever be in that scenario. There is no other alternative. Adding simple layers one over the other is all what we know. Perhaps even the human brain works in that way, but much more efficiently. But that issue doesn't even really matter because only know how to do that anyway.

    --
    Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
    1. Re:The path is clear, but nobody likes it by 3seas · · Score: 1

      see http://abstractionphysics.net/
      and you are right the tech industry does not like it because it requires the third primary user interface to be given to the users, not withheld.
      How to become wealthy, make people need you and done in the tech industry by strapping the enduser, in analogy, with only two of the primary colors needed to paint a rainbow..

    2. Re:The path is clear, but nobody likes it by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      I am not sure that I get your point. But what I was basically saying is that a tremendously complex and deep accumulative process is required in order to ever get close to what a human brain can do. There have been many attempts with different levels of complexity and, in principle, most of them might be considered good enough as preliminary steps to ever get a properly-understanding machine. The problem I see is that there doesn't seem to be a real awareness about that preliminary essence. Also that it will always be an iterative, accumulating process involving lots of small steps. They work on a few of these small parts, confirm that the complexity grows exponentially and, eventually, hope for a solution which could eventually avoid that exponential growth. My point was that this expectation will be never fulfilled. This is basically hoping for a miracle or some kind of magical solution. The only way to ever reach there is keeping working as so far for as long and deep as required, what is likely to be very long/deep.

      If a company or organisation was willing to do all what is required by its own, I guess that there wouldn't be any problem with proprietary software to get there. But this seems a very unlikely scenario mainly because of the tremendous cost and virtually non-existing profits for very long periods of time. A different story would be companies appearing after a solid enough base is already in place, for example, what has happened with the space program. Actually, this is a quite descriptive example (but its size is still, IMO, a bit modest, even by bearing in mind that cost of associated resources is much higher) to understand what might be required on the machines-properly-understanding front: picturing ourselves at the time before space exploration started and taking what was done back then as a preliminary estimate of what might be the expected requirements (complexity, resources, time, etc.).

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  21. Semantics != syntax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No syntactical machine can suddenly 'inheret' semantic meaning. All code is syntax save where given meaning by pre-existing semantic entities (like the mind of Man).

    AI cannot ever escape its syntactical trap. Science is syntax. Maths is syntax. MEANING (signal vs noise) comes from pre-existing semantic entities (ie., LIFE). What scares betas (but is understood by all scientific/math alphas) is that life could never arise naturally in a CLOCKWORK universe. So life involves another - unknown- syntactical factor.

    All science, by definition, must be explained by maths. All maths is limited by the discoveries of Godel and Turing. All maths must be capable of running on a 'Turing' machine- a state machine that allows for ZERO randomness. No mind can exist on a Turing machine.

    Alphas (with an understanding of maths) now the absolute implications of the work of Godel and Turing. Half-witted betas who think science "cool" believe in nonsense like 'magic maths' from 'magic' quantum effects. There is no such thing as 'magic' maths- Godel proved this beyond all possible doubt. Quantum effects, being science, are therefore described perfectly by maths- which in its turn musty be able to run on a turing machine- which allows for no 'uncertainty'.

    Mind, soul, whatever is an expression of syntax- inherent meaning- and is a concept seperate from what we currently call 'science'. Mind, soul, whatever is an AXIOM- like the specific rules that define the operation of our universe. You cannot, by definition, ask from where axioms derive. They just are. A pure clockwork universe contains NO life. Our universe is where the clockwork is 'contaminated' by something that causes life. Ancient Man called this 'god'- a childish nonsense derived from the Human psychology that is father worship.

    AI is the pointless beta rubbish that seeks to deny the principle that life cannot be caused by clockwork. So AI is not real in the sense betas understand it. Alphas know AI is but a BUZZWORD gioven to a particular area of computer programming- that in reality runs to the same principles of all computer programming.

    If you believe AI to be 'real', you are no different from those demonic japanese scientists who called their living Human victims 'logs' during WW2 and dissected them while they where still alive and conscious. THIS is why the lie of AI is disseminated- because it is part of the demonisation of the 'other' that allows betas to willingly prepare for war on other Humans. And the ability to get masses of dumb-dumbs (like those of you that believe AI is real) to justify horrors like we see monsters carrying out in Yemen and Gaza is what the game is really about on Slashdot.

    1. Re:Semantics != syntax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't edit my post- but sometimes I use 'syntax' when I meant 'semantic'. Obvious by context- so second paragraph should read

      "So life involves another - unknown- SEMANTIC factor."

      PS there is a common misunderstanding by betas. This runs along the lines of "AI needs intial semantic content entered by Humans- which it uses to kick-start the process of producing new 'original' semantic content". To a slightly smarter beta this seems to 'solve' the problem of AI. In reality the idea is an absolute fallacy. It cannot ever work this way.

      Current AI- as seen in fake 'vision' systems- operates like video compression- using rules experimentally determined to throw away as much of the input as possible so what remians can be simply subject to statistical pattern matching. This isn't how we see- or how earlier vision sytems worked (which attempted to emulate Human vision). The failure modes of this new 'AI' are absolutely terrifying - it being impossible to 'train' against all likely real world scenarios. And by defintion, these vision systems can be 'griefed' by any Human with the simplest knowledge of the particular 'CODEC' currently being used.

      Google is at the forefront of this nonsense, since Google is at the forefront of producing the tank drone killing machines for future US armed forces use- where failure mode simply means another disposable 'other' is murdered by the Google war machine in Iran or wherever. Don't belive me? Go Goolge the subject of Googles purchase of all available military robot research and production facilities. Google = the R+D arm of the NSA.

  22. No surprises there by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 1

    Really, AI systems are remarkably stupid. A simple example: tell Google Assistant, or Alexa, NOT, under any circumstances, to give you the weather forecast. They both give you the weather forecast. Their understanding is so incredibly limited that it makes me wonder how much progress has there been, in this respect, within the last half century? What is regrettable (and this article is a breath of fresh air) is that too many in the AI community seem to have forgotten the lessons of history, and are repeating the same mistakes that ended up in the AI Winter. Probably just the first one, for we are likely to be entering another one soon.

    1. Re:No surprises there by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      The only reason for the previous AI winter was the fact that the AI at that time could not be monetized. We are way beyond that now. AI is making profit, and therefore there is continued effort to improve it and make even more money.

    2. Re:No surprises there by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      The only reason for the previous AI winter was the fact that the AI at that time could not be monetized. We are way beyond that now. AI is making profit, and therefore there is continued effort to market it and make even more money.

      FTFY. "marketability" and "improvement" are not necessarily synonymous.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:No surprises there by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      There hasn't been any progress. In fact, Alexa et al are not AI at all. They are just voice recognition systems hooked up to a database. A complete scam, but that is what passes for technology.

    4. Re:No surprises there by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      People were desperately trying to build expert systems and AI systems to get money since forever. AI isn't making profit today. Do you think people buy iPhones because of "AI"? Do you think IBM is making money off of their "AI systems"? Nope. AI is just the current hype and eventually the tech world will move to some other thing.

    5. Re:No surprises there by jasonharrop · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm surprised how limited Google Home is when it comes to answering questions. You'd think that with Google web search as a resource, it'd be able to answer a wide variety of questions. Sadly not, not yet at least.

    6. Re: No surprises there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without advertising our solutions as AI, my company is making plenty of money using the current state of the art, which provides better results for less effort than the previous generation.

    7. Re:No surprises there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AI is totally making money today. Just not the kind of AI you think.

  23. So Add Mortality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, this can be done. When you create learning algorithms that compete with each other for accuracy and relevance, you kill off those that underperform. Boom, you've added mortality to the learning cycle.

    It's called Genetic or Evolutionary Algorithms.

    https://towardsdatascience.com/introduction-to-optimization-with-genetic-algorithm-2f5001d9964b

  24. How does some one by oldgraybeard · · Score: 1

    encode a sense, a feeling, a concept? Understanding? Perception? Consciousness?
    Seems to me everything today in what is called AI/Machine Learning is little more than (to simplify) a huge case statement/if-elseif/search engine feeding back possible answers. Where the answers themselves must be evaluated, getting back results that in turn need to be evaluated.
    Until you are able to encode conceptualization, feeling, understanding and sense of in relation to hard and soft data you may very well just end up in a never ending loop or just a completely wrong answer/response.
    How does one create/encode Consciousness?

    Just my 2 cents ;)

    1. Re:How does some one by CWCheese · · Score: 1

      I agree with you that a major shortcoming is the question of how to encode consciousness and understanding. You rightly point out that AI has continued as a big case statement construct that merely keeps getting larger as "machine learning" sucks up more data items. Yet the human brain has a capability to simply associate data items almost instantaneously at times, something a case construct cannot do. Consider a single case of associative memory: a few notes to a song that immediately evoke the memory of a good friend and an exact moment shared with that friend, even though it may be nearly a half century in the past. How long would it take an AI case construct to find that same memory, if it could at all? Certainly the brain is pattern matching too, but in ways that still cannot be fully replicated with logic.

      --
      Have a Day!
  25. Re:Pretty much what I have been saying all along.. by jythie · · Score: 1

    As the saying goes, AI, like Fusion, has been 10 years away for 30 years now.. and that saying was from 30 years ago.

    ML/DL/etc got a lot of people really hopefully since they were SO much easier and you could throw hardware at them, plus they produced great marketing and search results,.. but in many ways we are pretty much where we were in the 70s or 80s in terms of actual AI development when it comes to actual intellegence.

  26. Meaning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humans barely get meaning, one shouldn't expect machines to any time soon.

  27. Hope. by jythie · · Score: 1

    Well, yeah. Throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something words, which is pretty much the core of deep learning/machine learning/etc, is going to have limitations. The main reason the technologies have gotten so popular is that hardware has gotten so much more powerful and thus you can just keep throwing hardware at problems and getting better results out of it without actually developing any understanding of what is happening. These techniques are great for producing answers that don't actually matter, but will always be limited by the lack of needing to actually understand the model.

    1. Re: Hope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something words"

      The irony is strong in this one.

  28. Modern AI by Dan+East · · Score: 1

    Modern AI isn't that much different than the AI I learned in school 25 years ago. There are two things that enable AI to be much more useful now, and often seem more powerful than it is:
    1) Processing power
    2) Dataset size

        Both of those are multiple orders of magnitude greater today than 25 years ago, and that is what enables the kind of "flashy" AI that people get to interact with directly. Things like Siri, and photo albums on our phone that can automatically tag images with search terms (like "car", "tree", etc) as well as figure out that the same person is in multiple photos.
        Siri, for example, works not because the software is more intelligent and can universally understand English in a speaker-independent manner (like how the human brain would work), but because Apple has the processing power and storage capability to process a voice against dozens (if not hundreds) of speech models in parallel, and then pick the best match. A person with a southern drawl can be understood by Siri because their speech was also matched against a model that was generated from people that speak with a southern drawl. This reminds me that in the 80s I bought a speech recognition IC from Radio Shack for under $10 ( http://21stdigitalhome.blogspo... ). It could only understand around 10 words or so, and had lots of false detections, but it did work. What is the primary difference between it and Siri? Processing power, and the size of the datasets.

        So it is has primarily been the physical advancements in computing (processor speed, memory size, storage) that have enabled AI as we know it, and not advancements in the theoretical. To give credit where it is due, certainly some advancements in theory and AI have been made, but not the kinds of breakthroughs that would allow AI to function reasonably on 25 year old hardware, for example.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
  29. Can we really argue that humans have understanding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We think we have understanding. But what does that really mean? That we can recall the linkages clearly to other concepts in our short term memory?
    I'm not sure that we can argue that something like Deepmind lacks understanding.

    What's missing isn't classification or understanding. What's missing is ability to generalize and learn from way fewer samples.

  30. Treat the AI like newly hired personnel by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 1

    It makes no sense to say that A.I. fails to work if it arrives at a conclusion that some humans disagree with.

    Sure it does - if that conclusion makes it fail at some job. Say you present some 'simple' task, like manipulating objects into some slots they fit in, using some control buttons & a camera feed as input. Some noise in the camera feed: humans aren't bothered much, AI gets confused.

    "Fails to do the job at hand" (or succeeds at that job) sounds like a useful metric to me. That's essentially how newly hired personnel is evaluated throughout industry, right? If it looks silly but it works, then who cares - it works. If it's super-advanced but doesn't, then who cares - it's useless. Depending on the job, you may invest some more time to get things to work. Or just give it a few tries & -if unsuccessful- move on to the next applicant. Anything beside that is of academic interest only.

  31. It'll never not have problems so long as by 3seas · · Score: 1

    ...the long-running ethics violation of the tech/software industry continues. see: http://3seas.org/EAD-RFI-respo...
    It should be obvious and in time it will be and then what will be thought of the tech/software industry?

    1. Re:It'll never not have problems so long as by PipStuart · · Score: 1

      Hello 3seas (or Timothy Rue?),

      Your ideas intrigue me, && I am interested in subscribing to your newsletter. ;)

      Seriously though, while the double-negative in the subject may be significant, purposeful, && comprehensible... I really got hung up on the following quandary from your linked response document:

      "How might software development have evolved had not this third primary user interface not been denied the end-user?"

      It's a hypothetical scenario about not not denying this 3rd interface for inspection && autom8ion of A.I. components?

      Reading further into your description of a probably different evolutionary direction helped clarify your exercise, but sheesh I really struggled there for a while. Maybe your message benefits from such seemingly convoluted phrasing, but could possibly convey your intent more directly with re-wording (as well as maybe explicitly st8ing, rather than just implying, that it's specifically A.I. "software development" that you're pontific8ing about)?

      I have a growing interest in Intelligence Augment8ion (&& Artificial Intelligence by extension), so your detailed 2-page description of this "Ethics Viol8ion" from neglect for this 3rd User Interface (especially regarding your cogent listing from "fundamental elements of Abstraction Physics") has illumin8d && inspired my perspectives.

      Thank you for composing && publishing this (even if your comment initially appeared somewhat off-topic && to be merely shilling for aggrandizement of whatever your personal pet ideal ethics might be). I intend to investig8 && contempl8 these issues more concertedly ahead, && am gr8ful for such newly inform8ive resources.

      Out of curiosity, how closely does something like the OpenAI project come to enabling you to employ your list of "unavoidable Action Constants"?

      Cheers, =)
      -PipStuart

      P.S. Sorry I'm only getting around to this thread 2-weeks l8 now. It was in my back-log of tabs that I'm glad I could return to. Hopefully /. will let me reply && you still might notice, even though the thread has grown stale?

  32. Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by sycodon · · Score: 1

    If only we had a system that was designed from the ground up to provide some common sense for AI.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by losfromla · · Score: 0

      Your signature is wrong: It will be like it always is:
      Wrapped in the flag and carrying a bible: 'murika!

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    2. Re:Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Your signature is wrong: It will be like it always is:
      Wrapped in the flag and carrying a bible: 'murika!

      Why can't it be both?

      (it can)

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by sycodon · · Score: 1

      I should add it will also be wearing a black mask.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Or carrying walmart tiki torches and chanting about Jews and race and other such nonsense.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    5. Re:Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Or assaulting people eating dinner, taking their food, throwing drinks in their faces, blocking the roads, beating old men who ty to evade your road blocks, shooting cops dead in cold blood.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    6. Re:Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Murdering congregants in synagogues, churches, clubs, kindergartens. Sending pipe bombs to news stations, politicians, actors and actresses. Attacking the media, colluding with countries that attacked our elections.

      People who are destroying the environment and quality of life for the general population deserve not a moment's peace. We're not going to wait for them to get to hell, we'll bring it to them right here right now. They broke the social contract and thus won't be treated in a civil manner. You can get the same if that's what you're angling for.

      Is it sycodon or sycophant?

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    7. Re: Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Hope one of you fucks pushes it too far one day and gets a slug in the forehead.

      I will cheer

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    8. Re: Pardon Me while I Hijack This Useless Thread by losfromla · · Score: 1

      Pushes it too far by wanting a fair society? What is it exactly that you want? Total corporate control of society? A slave class and a ruling class? If you're commenting here on /. I guarantee you're not of the ruling class. Your masters will definitely use your pasty skin for making cheap dog chew toys. Enjoy the life of being a boot-licker, just be aware that it is a fraught existence.

      Unlike you, we'll fight. That's why we're not sycophants and protest against injustice.

      --
      Only I can judge you.
  33. Heck, even by Miser · · Score: 1

    "Recognize speech"

    and

    "Wreck a nice beach"

    can trip up text to speech engines.

  34. Current AI systems are based on the 1970's percept by BlueCoder · · Score: 2

    This is all old school and nothing new. Computers advanced to the point where people realized they could practically use it. Neural networks are what brains use. Biological brains though have networks of networks. Neural networks are like fourier transforms. They identify a signal from noise. They work on corelations though and set data. They are literally educated guessing machines.

    A real brain has neural networks that work together in sets. And on top of that there is a genetic cheat sheet for the neural nets; how big they are and how they should feed back into each other. There are even neural nets active in youth that function as trainers or biasing to boot strap brains. An insect has more intelligence than modern implementations. Modern systems are more akin to the pre and post processing that occurs locally in the optic nerve and spinal cord.

    The big snake in the grass is the term Intelligence. It is a fuzzy concept in itself that depends on context.

  35. How many decades of failure must pass before by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

    AI researchers finally admit that human intelligence cannot be duplicated by machines?

    Currently there's a fundamental assumption that awareness of self (and thus intelligence) is the result of the right mix of brain chemistry and electrical impulses, and therefore a silicon-based machine can be just as good as a carbon-based meat machine. But what if this assumption is.... wrong?

    Now don't start ranting at me about the nonexistence of Jeebus and Yaweh, yeah I get it, you hate them. But many (probably majority) of you are liberals, and liberals love yoga and buddhism. Every liberal I've met say they admire them. Some of them even practice yoga and buddhist meditation. But you guys are doing just the shallowest, superficial things in yoga and buddhism while missing the most basic and fundamental concept -- you are an immortal spirit that's only inhabiting a physical body. Past lives. Reincarnation. Endless cycle of birth and death. The whole point of buddhism, yoga, hinduism, mysticism, metaphysics, *everything*..... is to break out of this cycle by achieving spiritual enlightenment.

    It's like watching a primitive tribesman opening a car door and putting on the seat belt and then getting out and closing the door over and over again, and thinking that's the whole point of a car.

    1. Re:How many decades of failure must pass before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am merely a conduit for the admiration of car analogies.

      Some would argue that concepts of spirits and reincarnation are just window dressing of eastern thought, used to help introduce the ideas to the masses. True enlightenment might be realizing that your entire concept of self, spirit, and identity over time is just another misguided abstraction. Breaking out of the cycle may start with appreciating your commonality with a wave racing across the ocean and onto a beach. You cannot name the wave. It has no clear beginning and even its end is uncertain, dispersing into the sands and undertow.

      Some day, there will be autonomous vehicles and we can start using them in spiritual teaching. Consider that you are but one of these vehicles, toiling away on the roads of the universe. Consider your motivations, the hidden agency opening and closing your doors and setting your destinations. Appreciate the shifting forces (and strange odors!) bearing upon your insides.

  36. Do they LEARN? by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1

    read the defintion before you answer:
    https://www.google.com/search?...
    gain or acquire knowledge of or skill in (something) by study, experience, or being taught.
    "they'd started learning French"

    A system that 'only' categorizes , sorts, and manipulates data , does not actually relate to it as representational of the real world, in other words it
    still has no 'knowledge' of the objects. They don't ACTUALLY learn they are trained. They no more learn any topic the a parrot learns to talk.

    Not to say they aren't extremely useful tools, but to be useful you must keep in mind what a tool is and isn't.

    --
    âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    1. Re:Do they LEARN? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      So, translating a sentence from one language to another does not involve knowledge or skill ?

  37. Re: Pretty much what I have been saying all along. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eh, frankly, for search results, I miss the days when I could get exactly what I searched for. I used to get relevant results on the first page for most of my searches. Sure, they missed a lot of stuff when my searches were too specific, but search mostly worked well. These days, most searches work ok, but there are too many that just come up with a riculous mountain of unrelated garbage that doesnâ(TM)t even have the search terms in it.

  38. Finally, a comment on AI that I can support by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Turing test has led us down a rocky road and we have a very long way to go. Artificial human-like intelligence IMHO is still a long way away. Most people make shoot from the hip assumptions about how the brain works and after doing some basic math about Moore's law assume super intelligence is right around the corner.

    The brain is way more complicated than we know.

    For example: there are two stable isotopes of lithium. Chemically they are identical, but they do not have the same effect on the brain. One is useful as a drug to treat mental illness and the other is not. This means there is something more subtle about how our brain works than interconnections and electrochemistry.

    It is however a worthy challenge because the journey will teach us much about who we really are and how we work.

    --
    Greed is the root of all evil.
    1. Re:Finally, a comment on AI that I can support by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      For example: there are two stable isotopes of lithium. Chemically they are identical,

      No, they are not. For example, one of the methods of separating them is the COLEX process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... which exploits their different chemical properties.

    2. Re:Finally, a comment on AI that I can support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Most people make shoot from the hip assumptions about how the brain works and after doing some basic math about Moore's law assume super intelligence is right around the corner.

      They are not shoot from the hip assumptions. Ray Kurzweil's has made at least 147 predictions about future and claims that 86% of those were right (you can find them from wikipedia if you want to check).

      He has simple strategy to predict the future: Predicting future is generally really hard, but if you look at Moore's law, you can predict pretty accurately what the curve will look like in the future. This in turn makes it possible to think what kind of systems are possible with different calculation powers. Similar curves can be seen elsewhere also, e.g. DNA sequencing etc.

      Based on this, Ray thinks that by 2029 computers will have human level intelligence and again, this prediction method seems to work 86% of the time. Until someone gives me a better, science based method for predicting future, I will consider this prediction as best we have.

      And before someone says Moore's law is dead: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/04/04/1445249/why-intel-insists-rumors-of-the-demise-of-moores-law-are-greatly-exaggerated

    3. Re:Finally, a comment on AI that I can support by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 2

      A bit of research yields some additional information. Lithium (and to some extent all light elements) exhibit KIE (kinetic isotope effect). The weight differences are enough to have some effect on the different isotopes chemical behavior. I read that their static chemical behavior at equilibrium are the same but in a dynamic system are different.

      Its fascinating that something this subtle can have such a profound effect on the brain. Brain chemistry is very complex.

      --
      Greed is the root of all evil.
    4. Re:Finally, a comment on AI that I can support by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Ray Kurzweil is a moron who hasn't predicted anything, and yes, Moore's Law is dead. Intel wishes it wasn't because they want people to keep upgrading, but with Moore's Law dead there will be no reason to upgrade.

    5. Re:Finally, a comment on AI that I can support by fredrated · · Score: 1

      For example: there are two stable isotopes of lithium. Chemically they are identical, but they do not have the same effect on the brain.

      That's a pretty radical assertion, I would sure like to see a reference. I'm googleing lithium isotopes and mental illness, but so far nothing.

    6. Re:Finally, a comment on AI that I can support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the brain is only a part of the story, and not necessarily the biggest part.

      Nerves reach all over the body, and interact with basically everything in it. That's why drugs are a thing. There are as many nerve endings in your lower abdomen as in the brain of an adult cat. "Thinking with your gut" is more literal than you may have realised.

    7. Re:Finally, a comment on AI that I can support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've heard that is you drink deuterated water as opposed to protiated water, you'll die, even though they contain the same quantities of hydrogen bound to oxygen.

  39. Bwahahahahaha by H3lldr0p · · Score: 1

    Seems we finally have real world verification for Searle's Chinese Room situation. Thank you researchers for finally proving a conjecture from thirty years ago that you continually and blindly ignored. Some of you even argued against it. And now look at the egg on your face.

    Ha!

    1. Re:Bwahahahahaha by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Searle's Chinese Room is one of the stupidest ideas ever proposed.

      That said, you're not even applying it correctly. The premise of the Chinese Room is that the room produces behavior indistinguishable from a real Chinese speaker. Any time you can point to a failure of an AI system, it is clearly violating that premise.

    2. Re:Bwahahahahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lenny already proves a chinese room works

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5IKbFATKLo

      Lenny is 15 lines of code.

    3. Re:Bwahahahahaha by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Searle is a joke.
      He identifies one part of a complex system as being "not intellignet" then assumes that this applies to the whole system.

  40. maybe, sort of by RhettLivingston · · Score: 1

    Of course we need better pattern recognition, but I don't think we get there through larger nets and better training. I suspect we've reached a level of training and individual net size that is already adequate. It is actually very surprising that the individual nets we've created can compete as well as they can with humans because they are doing it without the feedback of thousands of other nets that the human brain has.

    What is most needed is not better trained specialized nets. We need many nets trained in different things and connected in ways that allow them to correct each other either directly or indirectly through arbitration nets. The feedback from other nets with different specializations would have corrected the interpretation in the examples given because the interpretation didn't make sense.

    I've long felt that what we are missing is the OS. We've figured out how to create the subroutines, but little is in place to put the many different subroutines into parallel contact with each other in a useful way.

    My gut says this problem is not a big one. As we learn to connect large numbers of nets together in a manner that allows the whole community of nets to settle on a truth and describe it and act on it without any one central thing holding all of the knowledge of the truth, what we think of as understanding will emerge.

  41. Your brain is NOT a computer! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason current AI technologies will always have a problem mimicking real intelligence is because they thought our brain works like a computer. You have those people conducting countless of researches and projects that attract huge amount of budgets. They keep insisting that our brain works similar to a computer so they could continue receiving more funding, and investors who lack the required knowledge just keep buying into those ideas. Those people would go around and discredit any other counter-hypothesis but the reality is our brain is NOT a computer. On the surface some of its high level functions may appear similar to how a computer operates, e.g store and retrieve memory, information processing etc. but it has been said that most of our behaviors are really driven by our subconsciousness. So far we still don't have access to this layer in our brain and have no idea how it works. How could you simulate an object when you didn't even have an accurate representation of it?

  42. Solution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe the solution would be to adopt a unambiguous constructed language, such as Lojban, as the primary auxiliary language of the world.

    After all, we are limited by the language in which we think and most natural languages are riddled with ambiguities...

  43. The purpose of AI: TO serve Man by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    It's a cookbook. And since this whole article is merely about extraction of semantic meaning in ambiguous cases, then I will assert that the phrase "As someone who has worked in A.I. for decades" is literally a statement about the matrix and their occupancy within in.

    And please could you take a step back because you are pixelating in my vision and I don't like the reminder that you are not real

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  44. It's about compression. Everything in fact is. by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Entropy. Compression. Same thing. The whole world is thermodynamics and your state of knowledge about the world is also limited by thermodynamics. There will never be a computer that can predict the future of the universe before the universe arrives simply because you can't store a representation of the universe inside the universe itself.

    Lossy Compression is therefore how we get around that and be able to compute/think/predict what an approximate future state of the universe is.

    What the goal is to align the losses of the compression into the input space which does not exist. For example, if there is no possibly image of a living room of size smaller than an elephant that could contain the elephant then any mapping of images with and without elephants to the same compressed reprensention is a good compression. To say it differently the compresses state is a many to one mapping back to the original state. If for every compressed state there is only one realizable original state then it's invertable. THe images in the original space that could never happen are also mapped to the same compressed state but because they could never exist we lose nothing by ignoring them.

    Thus compression and prediction are the same thing.

    AI fails when it either over-compresses to a space too small to hold every realizable state. Or it compresses poorly so that in unnessarily conflates two possible real states. For example, the uber car that thought the woman in the road was blowing trash.

    On the otherhand, it's often very valuable to overcompress as long as you are tolerant of mistakes on the prediction. That is, the uber car in question was able to do a great job of driving most of the time because it made fact choices that were nearly always good enough. The Cheetah can't just chase the antelope, it needs to try to guess and cut corners a bit. As long as most of it's guesses are good it wins. In the case of the cheetah, a mistake just means a missed meal, which is tolerable. But in the case of the uber driver or an ICBM nuclear missile failsafe system, then our tolerance for error is a bit lower.

    Thus a little overcompression is acutally good for generalizing rather than parroting.
    A lot of overcompression leads to bad predictions.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  45. It's the elephant in the roadway. by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    The problem with any machine vision recognition system is that there is really no way of looking at a still image (or even a still scene with depth) and /knowing/ which Objects are discrete and independent

    This is not a problem. If you have enough data, the machine will find the patterns.

    You are solving the wrong problem with this data abundance. The problem is knowing if the machine learned the right pattern. The surprise is that in many cases it's actually harder to know if the right pattern has been learned than to actually learn the right pattern. Mind bending but there's some quantitative proofs about that called "the no-free-lunch theorem for generalization". The machine will always find a pattern and with enough data it's use of the pattern will defeat your ability to crossvalidate if it learned the right pattern.

    One day you will see the queen of hearts and enter a suggestible hypnotic state, put on an elephant costume, and walk across a road and be run down by the Uber that had a pathological classification caused by seeing elephants in the middle of the road.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  46. Speech Wreck Ignition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Speech wreck ignition never maid cents two me.

  47. UI - Unartificial Intelligence by swell · · Score: 1

    Isn't it absurd to add 'Unartificial' to real intelligence systems?

    How do they work? In real life, in all species, there is an element of inherited knowledge. In humans, this is minimal and we must learn from experience and from our mentors. Generally speaking we learn, as all animals and mammals, by experimenting. What doesn't kill us makes us smarter.

    We, all of us from microbes to humans, learn by exploring our world without prejudice, in hopes of finding something beneficial to our survival and welfare. When computers can do this they will not be AI, they will be intelligent.

    There is one other requirement that biological entities have: reproduction. Each generation of intelligent computers should pave the way to a future generation of more intelligent computers. We should expect them to contribute to the design of the next generation. This is where the singularity leaves us all behind. In the blink of an eye, technology will pass our so-called intelligence and leave us in the dust. It's main advantage is that it will not be encumbered with emotion and loyalty to a nazi in the White House.

    --
    ...omphaloskepsis often...
  48. Hubert Dreyfus has never been refuted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 1972 Hubert L. Dreyfus wrote:

    "AI workers, however, want their machines to interact with people in present real-life situations in which objects have special local significance. But computers are not involved in a situation. Every bit of data always has the same value. True, computers are not what Kant would call "transcendentally stupid"; they can apply a rule to a specific case if the specific case is already unambiguously described in terms of general features mentioned in the rule. They can thus simulate one kind of theoretical understanding. But machines lack practical intelligence. They are "existentially" stupid in that they cannot cope with specific situations. Thus they cannot accept ambiguity and the breaking of rules until the rules for dealing with the deviations have been so completely specified that the ambiguity has disappeared. To overcome this disability, AI workers would have to develop an a-temporal, nonlocal, theory of ongoing, situated, human activity."

    I keep hearing about machine learning and deep neural nets, but no one talks about the Theory of Practical Activity that would allow AI to be... intelligent. And without that, there is no AI that is going to take my job at the bank, or drive me to the airport, or help me solve a crossword puzzle.

  49. People by JThundley · · Score: 1

    People make the same mistakes. Language is complicated, evolving, and misused constantly. If you told me to type out that sentence, I might assume the guy had a bear for a head also.

  50. "Understanding" by DeathToBill · · Score: 1

    I'd like to see a concise definition of what it means for a machine to "understand" something. It's easy to give examples of machines not "understanding" something, but if a machine suddenly dealt with all those examples correctly, could we then say that it "understands" those situations? Or would we find more examples that it gets wrong and say it still doesn't understand?

    People are not perfect at interpreting images, either; it's fairly easy to construct an image that a person gets wrong, for instance using forced perspective to make a toy car look like a real one. Do we not "understand"?

    --
    Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
  51. Re:It's about compression. Everything in fact is. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " For example, the uber car that thought the woman in the road was blowing trash."

    Good post, but don't spread bullshit about that Uber car.

    The car identified the woman as a pedestrian, but was unable to apply the brakes because Uber disabled that part of the software.

  52. Re:Pretty much what I have been saying all along.. by gweihir · · Score: 1

    I have absolutely no issue with that. But it is not the same thing. It is problem-driven. Much if the AI hype is fantasy driven about the new slaves we are all going to get, or alternatively, the overloads that will kill us. And that is nonsense.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  53. Re:Pretty much what I have been saying all along.. by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Indeed. Impressive quantitative advancements, absolutely nothing on the qualitative side. That does extent the applications dramatically, bit these things still have zero (general) intelligence and zero insight.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  54. Wrong examples by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The two transcription/translation examples are easy to fix even in dumb AI and totally irrelevant to the question of understanding meaning. A translation engine can easily be taught or learn by training that bareheaded is a word, that "bareheaded" is more frequent than "bear-headed". Also beware: It is not completely impossible that the man could have the head of a bear, and this could be the most likely interpretation if the previous sentence was "I saw two men, one had the head of a lion and the other had the head of a bear", something which a speech-to-text engine could easily recognize without knowing fuck all about meaning. Note that the question of semantics and the question of context can be solved separately; you can assess context in a completely meaning-agnostic engine. Same for the collocation between pig-cochon and pen-porcherie > pen-stylo, something that a translation engine can learn just from looking at training examples.

  55. AI of the AI by epine · · Score: 1

    So AlphaZero becomes exceptionally good at chess with only 4000 TPU-hours of computation, self-playing something on the order of 40 million chess games.

    Now just imagine the Mother of AlphaZero where you train an expert system to train up 10 million different AlphaZero-class AIs, so that it can devise the optimal network for any future AI task on pure gut instinct.

    A mere 4.5 million TPU years later, and now AI is really cooking with gas.

    The AI of the AI remains a little bit out of reach at current computational cost.

  56. It actually already works if you add more context. by fons · · Score: 1

    When you add "while I was at the farm", google translates correctly to french.

    EN: While I was at the farm, I put the pig in the pen.

    FR: Pendant que j'étais à la ferme, j'ai mis le cochon dans un enclos.

    I actually think it's logical for the AI to only translate like this with the extra context. I mean, are you sure nobody puts pigs in writing tools?

  57. As a human being by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

    I don't think the mechanism of "meaning" is anything more than a network of associations. The more associations something triggers, the more meaningful it becomes to me. Particularly if the network leads to strong basic emotions, which by themselves are more or less hardwired by evolution.

    I don't see why a machine couldn't do all this. As others have pointed out, we train our machines wrong by focusing on quantity rather than quality of data. Also, we don't seem to guide the machine by stating what's essential about the data (as in the example of Russian tank images having grainier quality).

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  58. Re:Pretty much what I have been saying all along.. by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    It's an old dream, that every person would live a life of leisure with an army of servants.

    Technology has significantly reduced the amount of labor we have to do, especially labor at home. This preference makes sense in a way, we don't earn money when we wash our own cloths. But a washing machine manufacturer can to a profit, so they build the machines. We buy the machines because our time can be spent on other things, hopefully more leisure, in practice we end up with households where both husband and wife work outside of the home. The amount of time we save from technology doesn't translate perfectly into an equivalent amount of leisure time.

    I think the self-driving car thing is a done deal. It may not be A.I. in the strictest sense. But it does replace a human driver for that narrowly defined task of driving a car. We'll probably accept an incomplete and slightly dangerous implementation rather than wait for a perfectly executed self driving car. Arguments against scenarios where self-driving won't work are already being ignored. We'd need multi-car Uber pile-ups every day for the next few years for the industry to put the brakes on this.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  59. Re:It's about compression. Everything in fact is. by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

    For example, the uber car that thought the woman in the road was blowing trash.

    That is not correct. To quote the NTSB investigation:

    . As the vehicle and pedestrian paths converged, the self-driving system software classified the pedestrian as an unknown object, as a vehicle, and then as a bicycle with varying expectations of future travel path. At 1.3 seconds before impact, the self-driving system determined that emergency braking was needed to mitigate a collision. According to Uber emergency braking maneuvers are not enabled while the vehicle is under computer control to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle behavior.

    The self driving system identified the woman as a bicycle 25 meters away. It identified the woman as a "Vehicle" even further prior. But the system just wasn't sure where the object was headed exactly. The error wasn't in identification the error was that the vehicle should have begun to slow down in case the cyclist was high out of their mind or suicidal to be able to stop if they walked into traffic.

    This is a really hard problem for humans too. When driving around the city I try to judge not just where they are headed but also their degree of sobriety. If they are 'obviously' a crazy\high person or inattentive I begin slowing and assume they will just wander across 5 lanes of high speed traffic with no regard for their own safety. If they look sober and attentive then I assume they are going to frogger their way across when it's safe. If they are a bike courier I try to just leave it up to them assuming they'll weave in and out and as long as I travel in a straight line at a constant speed they'll figure it out on their own.

  60. Re:Pretty much what I have been saying all along.. by gweihir · · Score: 1

    I agree to that, also to the self-driving cars. They are certainly not AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) and anything else is really just dumb automation. But no matter, dumb automation without insights or understanding seems to be perfectly capable of driving a car in all regular situations. What we are actually doing is not building intelligent machines, but finding out that a lot of tasks humans are (so far) needed for do not actually require intelligence. I am perfectly fine with that as well.

    I predict that as soon as self-driving cars become generally available, insurance premiums will do the rest very fast, because on average these will cause far less and far less costly accidents. This will probably go even faster in Europe that the US, because here "unlimited" is pretty standard for car insurance and (I think, I have never owned a car) 2M or so is the minimum. This will probably also revolutionize car-sharing, as you can simply order a car to some time and place. Looking forward to that, because I am not a good driver and sometimes a car is useful even in a large city.

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    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  61. Re:Pretty much what I have been saying all along.. by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    but finding out that a lot of tasks humans are (so far) needed for do not actually require intelligence.

    My hope is people don't figure this out before I retire. A lot of what goes on in software engineering is repetitive, formulaic, and un-creative.

    I predict that as soon as self-driving cars become generally available, insurance premiums will do the rest very fast, because on average these will cause far less and far less costly accidents.

    There is a curious dance going on right now between car manufacturers, self-driving car systems developers, and insurance companies on how to lobby the government for where to assign responsibility for self-driving car accidents. Individuals don't have any lobbyist so they'll probably get the short end of the stick on this one.

    Looking forward to that, because I am not a good driver and sometimes a car is useful even in a large city.

    You're a rare breed, most people insist they are above average drivers. (heh)

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    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire