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The FTC Says It Will Investigate Loot Boxes (kotaku.com)
The Federal Trade Commission this week agreed to investigate video game loot boxes, accepting an official request by Senator Maggie Hassan. In a Congressional oversight committee hearing yesterday, FTC chairman Joe Simons affirmed Sen. Hassan's request that loot boxes be investigated. From a report: During her turn to ask questions at the hearing, Hassan cited a recent report by Great Britain's Gambling Commission that found 31% of children in the country had at one point or another paid money to open a loot box, a well as moves by Belgium (which prompted Square Enix to pull three mobile games from the country), Japan, and other countries to limit how loot boxes can be used in games. "Given the seriousness of this issue, I think it is in fact time for the FTC to investigate these mechanisms to ensure that children are being adequately protected and to educate parents about potential addiction or other negative impacts of these games," Hassan said. "Would you commit to undertaking this project and keeping this committee informed about it?" In response, Simons said "yes," but declined to go into any more detail about the FTC's current position on loot boxes and whether they constitute a form of gambling. Despite vocal criticism from Hassan and a few others on the topic, regulators have not been jumping to get involved in the debate.
"I don't like her and my friends don't like her, so nobody in the state likes her. Never mind that they voted her into office."
No, it's gambling which is illegal for minors and possibly w/ interstate issues also. Just because you don't understand the law or why things happen doesn't mean it's without reason.
No, it's gambling which is illegal for minors and possibly w/ interstate issues also. Just because you don't understand the law or why things happen doesn't mean it's without reason.
Parents are buying adult-rated games and handing them to their underage children, and you think the problem lies with the game creators? Last I checked, a 10-year old can't get a credit card; Adults are entering credit card information into games, and you want to blame the minor?
Let me know when parents start giving a shit about their kids again, and you fully understand "why things happen". Until then, this is a complete fucking waste of government resources.
$eriously, like $80 and the girls get some make up, dolls, and bath bombs. o.O
https://www.amazon.com/L-L-Sur...
***
Last year my daughter wanted one, I was like HELL NO, not at that price. So daddy went to Dollar Tree and bought a large Tupperware bowl. Stuffed it full of little things, bath bombs, etc, etc. Wrapped it in aluminum foil. Then wrote
"Daddy L.O.L.Z." on it....
Kids loved it.
There is a market solution to the loot box problem: stop buying the stupid loot boxes. Better yet: Educate your kids not to buy the stupid loot boxes.
Every generation of kids has to face an addiction. When I was growing up, it was Magic: The Gathering AKA "cardboard crack." College students or graduates would spend significant their disposable income on randomized card packs, waiting to get that rare card so they could show-off to their friends. I remember one group of guys who had been in community college for several years, constantly skipping class to play Magic. They were stuck in time, just barely passing a few classes per semester due to their addiction.
Then it became video games. What was it before that? Baseball cards maybe? I think we need to teach our children to recognize this. Introduce them to the economics of it before the addiction can get a hold on them.
In app purchases in general should be well regulated.
1. They are often Pay to Cheat, especially for online games where people who pay more get a leg up on the stuff.
2. Kids are greedy little suckers. I know I use to be one. If my friend was playing a game and had that fancy skin that their parents shelled out $10.00 for and my parents said no. I would still really want it, or something of equal or greater cost. I didn't care about building character, they had it, and I wanted them the feel just as envious of me that I feel towards them.
3. Kids are class oriented. You have X and they have Y one has to be objectively better then the other. if you have the one that isn't better you are often feel like you have been put down. Sometimes they actually are, and other times they just feel that way. Emotionally it is the same.
4. Kids don't understand the value of money. You see Mom buying $250 worth of groceries, surely $10 or even $100 isn't that big of a deal. Not realizing such payments can add up quickly, and the money after bigger expenses is much lower.
Even with Good parenting you kid can fall under pressure to buy this type of stuff. If not to reap the reward of the purchase but avoid the shame of not having it.
There are also a lot of adults too have these problems, but they they legally can take the brunt of their mistakes, vs kids who share the consequences.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Maybe while they're at it they can investigate all the cash mom and dad are busy spending on in-app purchases in Candy Crush.
#DeleteChrome
And not all games treat loot boxes in the same way.
Gambling is a chance to win back more money than you spent on the gamble, which is impossible to do when the money is converted into a loot box that is guaranteed not to contain more money than you spent on the box in the first place.
Loot boxes are a way for gaming companies to make money via microtransactions from people that know that the contents of the boxes are random, and may contain something they want, or may contain something they don't want, and are frequently irrelevant to the outcome of the game as they are only cosmetic.
The politicians are acting like this is betting on horses or going to an online casino of some sort.
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
I have no issue with my kid playing "adult" games. I wouldn't hand them my credit card though. I had a debit card at a young age and I'd bet most kids now do too. At least by middle school age anyway. You should be teaching your kids to make wise decisions rather than nannying them. Go look up Free Range Kids. If your kid can't walk to the store by age 7 or take a subway (if you live in a city) it's your own damm fault. Stop babying them.
You're being stupid, that's ok, but loot can be sold for money. Which, in your case, all goes to cocaine I guess? Enjoy your Libertarianism, not my problem.
Gambling is taxed/regulated differently, interstate is taxed differently, etc. There are issues there whether your sniffy/crybaby ass knows about them or not.
the app stores had the auto buy with card on file (needed even for free apps) and the game cash to make it look like it's not real cash.
Casino tokens isn't money either...
I mean Drug war? What Drug war?
Loot boxes take advantage of well known defects in human thought and personality. They're very well known because they're the same defects that make gambling work. That's because loot boxes === gambling (using 3 equal signs to indicate exact match here).
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As long as you know exactly what you get for your money, eg. a bundle of 5x Item 1, 10x Item 2 and 1x Item 3, then it's not a loot box. It's a different problem, and I'm against microtransactions as a matter of principle, but the gambling aspect of loot boxes is a problem entirely in its own category.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
Maggie was an embarrassing governor (she opposed decrim many other sensible proposals) so we sent her away.
LOL. Yes, all of NH hated her so much they voted her out of the state senate and into the governor's office. They then hated her so much more that they voted her into US senate. At this rate, I can't wait to see the unbridled fury with which they cast their hate vote for her in the 2020 presidential primary.
I used to collect Spider-Man trading cards as a child. There was a fairly good probability of scoring a hologram card in a pack. The pack cost three dollars and I'd resell the card to the shop. The shop would re-sell the card for thirty dollars. I'd compulsively buy cards until I was broke. I did cash out one time for eighty bucks. Not bad for a twenty dollar investment. Don't even get me started on Magic: The Gathering. My buddy could probably use his Black Lotus as equity on a loan. This is probably an example of government waste due to bad parenting
There's nothing unique about loot boxes when it comes to the topic of tax evasion. Loot boxes can be sold for real money in some games, and some people may use that mechanism for tax evasion, but that's equally as true of any other virtual item that can be sold for real money in a game, whether it's a weapon, a skin, a piece of gold, or whatever else.
There may be something worth investigating there, but that's a separate concern that has nothing to do with the unique characteristics of loot boxes.
I feel like this has happened before...
A game usually has you grind out a "key." That key takes like 24 hours of time spent playing to unlock. However, instead you can just pay $2 and get a key. Consider the key as an in game currency. It may also be an out of game currency because many games and steam allow you to trade items and actually put values on the items. So you spend $2 on a key, and you can open up a box that either has a 1 cent item or a $2000 item. We know the exact values of those items because they are traded or sold on marketplaces for that amount. So, in particular with items that can be traded, it is 100% a form of gambling. I know people who spent hundreds and maybe thousands of dollars on items specifically trying to win and sell the items they won. If that isn't gambling I don't know what is. Now if a game has a loot box item that you can't trade, then is it really gambling because there is no inherent value in the item won? Hard to say, of course you could sell your account but that is typically against a games terms of service.
the insurance industry, for example, is heavily regulated to ensure people get value out of it.
The reason the industry won't self-regulate is they know damn well that gambling mechanics with real money being exchanged means an AO rating.
As for preventing terrible life decisions, those people's decisions effect you too. The most obvious is you get worse games. The less obvious is that people turn to crime to feed their addictions. You don't live life in a vacuum. No man is an island. And you can't just put your fingers in your ears and chant "freedom" and make out alright.
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That highlights how little effect investigating loot boxes will have - because fundamentally, the problem is more with games really having it down to a science as to how to tempt people to buy.
In Fortnight, there are no loot boxes - if you are spending money you know exactly what you get. And in theory, there is zero play advantage at all from any of the items you can buy, they are appearance only (there are a handful of examples of using things like dance moves to hide in ways you could not otherwise, but mostly that is true).
So if you say loot boxes are illegal games will just move to the Fortnite model and nothing will change.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That makes no sense. You might as well have mentioned that some of these games may cause seizures in people with epilepsy. It's a concern, sure, but it's of no more relevance here—in a conversation about whether loot boxes should be regulated as gambling—than tax evasion is. It's just something unrelated that may be a problem with certain types of games.
In app purchases in general should be well regulated.
More than other purchases?
1. They are often Pay to Cheat, especially for online games where people who pay more get a leg up on the stuff.
Me: When I dont like something, I dont buy it.
You: When you dont like something, you try to prevent me from buying it.
2. Kids are greedy little suckers. I know I use to be one. If my friend was playing a game and had that fancy skin that their parents shelled out $10.00 for
You: When you dont like something, you try to prevent other parents from buying it.
3. Kids are class oriented. You have X and they have Y one has to be objectively better then the other. if you have the one that isn't better you are often feel like you have been put down.
But some people are changing that equation, making sure kids never learn this. Its been about 20 years now and the kids leaving college are infantile cunts. Thanks for all the help fucking over a whole generation.
If its so important to protect children, why are you fucking with them?
"His name was James Damore."
Disclaimer, I'm a fairly heavy gambler with actual money, often seeing 5-digit swings in a single day.
I've played a fair amount of games with loot boxes, some more hostile and overt than others, and have to say that I definitely do not consider them gambling in any kind of formal or legal sense. One of the key distinguishing elements is the ability to officially extract real world value out of the resultant product. This fails in almost every game: Once you spend currency on the game, whether you buy extra lives, boosters, or the random loot box, there is no way to get any kind of money out of it; money has entered a closed system. (While there are grey/black markets available for some games, those I'm discounting since they're unregulated by the game company and are almost always a violation of the ToS.) For games where you can officially sell the resultant product for cash, or a direct cash equivalency, this point is moot. (The only one I know of off-hand is Armello, though I'm lead to believe some more recent games allow for it.)
It's similar to arcades-- use cash to buy tokens, put tokens into a game (Wheel of Fortune, where a wheel spins and you get a random amount of tickets depending on where it stops, maybe?), get tickets, exchange tickets for an item. Most people wouldn't call this gambling, despite how this very process has been used to circumvent gambling laws in numerous jurisdictions around the world (cracked down upon in some cases).
In common parlance? Sure, it's gambling. So's skeeball, or whoever wins the coin flip gets the fries at the bottom of the bag.
I'll let the military know that camouflage doesnt offer an advantage,
Yes, I actually brought that up in a previous article talking about Fortnite outfit purchases... I kind of agree with you there, as some suits are mostly dark and you would think make you harder to see.
However in practice, that doesn't really end up being what happens. You end up being able to see or not see other players pretty much equally, not sure how but I think they balance that out or highlight things in some way in the game engine, even very dark outfits you can see from a long ways off.... you can also tell it doesn't matter much in the people that make it to the end and are the ultimate victors. often they have neon colored suits that you'd think would get them lit up like a Christmas tree.
I think the reason it does not matter for good players is they want you to attack them, at the first hint of damage they throw up a barrier so they hardly get hurt, then they track you down and destroy you. So in the end it's the brightly colored ones you should probably fear most as they are luring you to your doom. :-)
I don't claim to be a Fortnite expert though as I'm not very good at it, and lack the time to put into it to build up the skill I would need to be good. I like the dynamics though and think they've generally thought out balance pretty well.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
will they outlaw baseball cards?
it's a common mistake by Americans. The problem is that healthcare delivery is fundamentally not insurable. That stopped being the case when medicine became more advanced than a few pills and the occasional operation. We're past the "disaster recovery" stage of medicine and well into maintenance mode.
I have life insurance. About $500k total. Why? Because if I get in a car wreck and die I don't leave a lifetime of poverty for my family behind me. This way the kids have money to finish college and get set up in life. That's insurance: something to protect against a very rare disaster. It's also cheap. I pay $15/mo all told and I'm probably overpaying.
Now, healthcare "insurance" is a scam. I pay for it and unless I hit a pretty high out of pocket max they don't pay a dime. But I use it regularly for various maintenance activities. It's no longer a slot machine if I need the chips from the machine to live...
We know the solution: stop having my company hand a portion of my check to a private company and just give it to the gov't. Then let the gov't pay the doctors. Single Payer works in every country it's been tried in.
tl;dr: You're mixing up the value of actual insurance with the scam that is the US healthcare system, causing some confusion with the points I made above.
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I’m picking up what you’re putting down, and I’ll admit it’s a different tack than what I thought you were initially taking, but it’s still a moot point. If it’s considered gambling, then it’s illegal in the US because those transactions are a form of interstate commerce. As such, none of the tax regulations particular to gambling come into play.
Since they are going to go after all these games that prey on people's poor impulse control, are they going to go after CCGs, like Magic the Gathering and Pokimon? You know, the original loot box games that have been played by children for the past twenty years?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Gambling is like a coin-operated vibrator whose speed randomizes every time you plunk in another coin. Even at the low speeds it's still pretty good. Sure it turns off for a few seconds sometimes, but if you wait through those you'll hit the cherries eventually.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
Doesn't the constant disappointment of loot boxes act as an early lesson that gambling kind of sucks and you can find way cooler uses for money?
Yeah, I mean it's not like they have algorithms that have been developed to give you enough wins at exactly the right rate so that you stay hooked. After all, if they did, gambling would be a huge business!
Oh, wait.
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
Doesn't the constant disappointment of loot boxes act as an early lesson that gambling kind of sucks and you can find way cooler uses for money?
If that were the case Casinos wouldn't exist.
Please regulate loot boxes, I want better drops.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
you're so adorably delusional.
Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
And then turned right around and voted her into another equally presitgious office which she still holds.
gamÂbling (gÄfmâblÄng)
n.
1. The activity of playing a game for stakes or betting on an uncertain outcome.
2. The business of operating facilities where such activities take place.
Is the outcome of a lootbox uncertain? As you said, it relies on RNG to determine the outcome. And not just even odds, the odds are weighted depending on the desirability of the object, just like many casino games.
Are you betting on a favorable outcome when you buy a lootbox? Absolutely, else why would you buy things you don't want?
Lootboxes are obviously gambling.
Now, this is not the legal definition of gambling. There are many kinds of gambling that are inconsequential enough to not be illegal, or be technically illegal, but are unenforced because of their triviality.
It remains to be seen whether lootboxes meet the legal definition of gambling in the US. It is worth noting, however, that several other countries have already decided that lootboxes meet their legal definition of gambling, and must therefore abide by gambling laws.
Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
The UK doesn't think so and the Chinese don't think so. I'm sure what other countries do matters. /s
I might not have explained it well, I'm not a professional orator.
It's not that Home owners, car or rental insurance covers 100%. That's not the point. The point is they kick in when disaster strikes and help you deal with the worst of the financial hits.
Healthcare is no longer about the aftermath of a disaster. It's about adverting the disaster in the first place. aka Maintenance. Not a lot of folks buy maintenance contracts on their homes because they're not a good value. You can't pick the guy that fixes stuff. That guy often just jury rigs things because he's paid a flat rate for the job. Etc, etc.
You're right about one thing, the crusade is personal. I've got several friends & family born with illnesses (a cancer survivor and one with Type 1 Diabetes comes to mind). The current system would have killed them all. They're alive today because of a patchwork of single payer systems in the US.
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...A game needs all the items available without feeding it cash. We already did that when we bought it...
No, you did not. You are not paying attention. If you play Fortnite (as stated in the subject line ^^ ) you did not buy it because Fortnite is free to play, and generates revenue with in-game transactions, which may include randomized loot boxes, as discussed in the original article.
I completely understand why the business model of Free to Play with in-game transactions is disliked by many [myself included], but get over it. It's here. The market has spoken. Consumers spending their cash speaks many times louder than folks shaking their canes and explaining to us how things should be. This is reality. Please join us.