Slashdot Mirror
Fed Says Millennials Are Just Like Their Parents. Only Poorer (bloomberg.com)
Millennials, long presumed to have less interest in the nonstop consumption of goods that underpins the American economy, might not be that different after all, a new study from the Federal Reserve says. From a report: Their spending habits are a lot like the generations that came before them, they just have less money at this point in their lives, the Fed study found. The group born between 1981 and 1997 has fallen behind because many of them came of age during the financial crisis. "We find little evidence that millennial households have tastes and preference for consumption that are lower than those of earlier generations, once the effects of age, income, and a wide range of demographic characteristics are taken into account," wrote authors Christopher Kurz, Geng Li and Daniel J. Vine.
Their findings [PDF] are grounded in an analysis of spending, income, debt, net worth, and demographic factors among different generations. The conclusion that millennials aren't all that different also holds for the researchers' more granular examination of expenditures on cars, food, and housing. "It primarily is the differences in average age and then differences in average income that explain a large and important portion of the consumption wedge between millennials and other cohorts," they conclude. So much for the young folks favoring "experiences" over tangible goods.
Their findings [PDF] are grounded in an analysis of spending, income, debt, net worth, and demographic factors among different generations. The conclusion that millennials aren't all that different also holds for the researchers' more granular examination of expenditures on cars, food, and housing. "It primarily is the differences in average age and then differences in average income that explain a large and important portion of the consumption wedge between millennials and other cohorts," they conclude. So much for the young folks favoring "experiences" over tangible goods.
The reason they have less is simple, we have more.
And we like it that way.
--The Top
The Boomers are the ones who picked your pockets. Their chortling their way into retirement as they collect their checks from your SS contributions. The Millenials would just as soon end the program that they can never hope to get anything from, the program that amounts to a Ponzi scheme and generational theft. Now where's my damn Avacado toast...
Occasionally I watch price is right. In the final thing, even the youngun will usually pass on the first showcase if it does not include a car. And when they win a car, they seem much more excited than an experience trip. So yeah, I agree with the report.
They have fallen behind government decided to balance the budget on their backs.
School loans have destroyed the future for a generation and everyone knows it.
0. Anonymous Coward's shitposting
When did being a millennial get equated to materialism per se? I thought the trope had more do with growing up as latch-key kids, and being taught hard to feel special, entitled, and enabled by over-compensating or guilt-ridden parents, teachers, and the participation trophy mindset.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
Else I'd have said something. Yes, the only reason millennials don't participate in the good ol' "shop 'til you drop" game is that they can't afford the fee. And this is the only reason they don't buy your crap and don't drive the economy. If you want people to buy your stuff, you need people who have the money to buy your stuff.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Especially when Jeff Bezos has $150,000,000,000 of worth.
http://progressquest.com/spoltog.php?name=Son+Of+Son+Of+DarkRookie
First, I think, most people have no idea what the definition of millennial even is.
and second, they think the extreme loudmouths the media likes to amuse us with constitute a representative sample.
Once you're beyond that, I think nothing about millennials remains outside tbw norm and what we've seen in everey other generation.
About 6 months ago I recall hearing about the wave of "Millenials don't buy XYZ!" stories!" The items were things like napkins and fabric softener or cars. Then went on to explain how they were this weird different generation.
What made a lot more sense was simply they had less money, and didn't buy extraneous stuff you didn't really need, like napkins, or fabric softener. I've never bought fabric softener. Maybe because I don't wear lots of clothes that require it. But it always seemed weird to me that people need fabric softener.
Napkins are similar. We actually DO my napkins now, and it's useful, but you can easily get away with paper towels.
Cars are obviously very expensive, so you don't buy a new one if you can't afford it.
Now... if it was about an item that you really HAVE to buy, and is cheap, like deodorant or toothpaste, that might be something. But the list is/was these things you didn't really need, can easily live without, but you might buy if you had a little extra money. So yeah, not too surprising here.
While this may seem like an obvious conclusion. Many studies and news articles have reached different conclusions.
Personally, I think most of the complaining about millennials to just be old people becoming out of touch, as they always do.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
The group born between 1981 and 1997 has fallen behind because many of them came of age during the financial crisis.
We aren't poor. We've just seen what happens when the financial markets collapse and don't see the need to be leveraged out the ass with 2 car notes, a second mortgage (for those of us who were even lucky enough to find housing while it was still actually reasonably priced), and paying off 3 credit cards. We're spending less than we have so we aren't completely screwed come the next bust cycle. We'd love to be able to spend money, but we remember being un- or under-employed and how much that sucked while the Boomers with guaranteed pensions and social security (both being paid for by us with us likely to see no benefit or payout ourselves) trying to grab more and more.
Besides, any extra money we would have to spend on consumer goods that our parents bought with credit card debt is most likely wrapped up in another type of debt: student loans. The bonuses I've gotten from my company the last few years, instead of helping the local economy by being spent on house repairs/upgrades has gone towards paying off student loans. And this years'll be no different.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Millenials aren't actually lazy, they're getting paid stagnant rates and the money supply has increased. Inflation happens and spending power has gone down as a result. The same or greater productivity is expected and "kids these days" aren't the ones seeing the benefit of it.
This isn't even news. Gone are the days when a part time summer job is enough for that year's college tuition. A part time job might barely cover rent any more. And you can forget about having a savings account without at least one full time job and a part time job on the side.
Employers are offering fewer and fewer long term incentives, which results in lower employee loyalty in return.
It's not a mystery, it's not a secret. It's the economy, stupid.
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
Boomer made out like bandits, but 'the greatest generation' and especially their parents were the true thieves. At least the boomers and WWII gen paid something in.
Anybody who voted for FDR should be dug up, the plot resold, headstone ground flat/reinscribed and any gold fillings, wedding rings etc used to retire a tiny share of the ponzi scheme's debt.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Applies to both. Also applies to 1960s hippies and every other generation.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I think you might have a point there - I'm not sure where all the disparagement towards millenials is coming from. I'm in my 50s, and I work with plenty of interns and new grads in an engineering setting. My experience has been that most of them actually make an effort and bust their ass to get the job done, and are much more aware of needing to plan for the future than my generation was. Yeah, culturally there are differences and sometimes generational gaps in experiences, but I can't see any real reason to dogpile on them just for that.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
if we are truly just like our parents but poorer, then we can be expected to hold differing priorities and spending habits that are dictated by that poverty. The Federal Reserve is either pushing this idea to calm markets heading into a recession, or its manufacturing excuses for upcoming market instability.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Else I'd have said something. Yes, the only reason millennials don't participate in the good ol' "shop 'til you drop" game is that they can't afford the fee. And this is the only reason they don't buy your crap and don't drive the economy. If you want people to buy your stuff, you need people who have the money to buy your stuff.
I am a homeowner in what is mostly an upper middle class community... For years I have told people I don't like to spend money because I am cheap and when I do home projects they are always DIY ("because I like too do it myself")... but truth is I don't spend money because most of my paycheck goes towards mortgage, student loans (still), heating, electricity, groceries and just treading water living mostly pay check to pay check with a bit set aside for retirement which is faster and faster approaching. I am the top 20% or better of income brackets. And sometimes, occasionally every couple years, I can save up enough or feel I can afford to borrow enough to go on a vacation with my kids or hire someone for a project at my house or do something.
But telling people that you can't afford to spend money indicates weakness. It isn't a good idea to be honest about that. If people know you are financially weak then they can take advantage of you at every level. That is one reason people keep it to themselves (or should keep it to themselves) that they simply don't have enough money to do or buy whatever it is they want to do... and thus get excluded from the very social circles that would gain them opportunities for better income over the long run.
They just really enjoy having a roommate... or really enjoy living together... aren't ready for marriage, prefer to rent rather than buy, want to live a simpler life, don't need a car, just really like the same shirt they have been wearing for 3 years.
And I am in a measurable verifiable top 20% income bracket in a major metropolitan area with affordable debt and some retirement savings. I have no misconceptions about what the other 80% are doing to stay afloat. Whatever they can.
We've "taken into account" and "controlled for" these dozens of factors. After we make everything the same, lo and behold, the new generation is the same as the old.
Shock of a lifetime!
"Average age, average income, and a wide range of demographics" -- are drastically different.
So answer the question the way it's asked. If I walk up to a random twenty-year old this afternoon, will he buy things like I did when I was twenty, or not?
Of course if he's impoverished, he won't. Of course if he's dead he won't. Of course if he's chosen to live as a hermit he won't. But isn't that the point?
The question wasn't "why". The question is "whether".
I had a friend. (Okay, not a friend, I couldn't stand her, but she was an acquaintance)
She was going to build 'passiv haus' (we're American, but she liked the German spelling) communities to save energy, etc. etc.
She drove from California to New York at least a dozen times to support this plan. I'm pretty sure she used more fuel on her roadtrips than she would have saved had the plan actually worked. The plan didn't work, and she ended up finding out that Upstate New York is really cold, and she didn't want to live in an unheated house in that environment.
But she still talks about how dedicated she was...she does NOT like to hear about the wasted fuel.
Her marriage went really bad because she ignored her spouse while being a road-tripping ecowarrior. And absolutely none of this is her fault- the system is against her.
But damn...she can feel high and mighty knowing that she was THINKING about this stuff while you were watching TV.
No reason to lie.
OK, so what do you propose doing about it?
Well, for one thing, pretty sure that bringing in countless foreigners to compete for jobs isn't going to help, but what do I know.
It's unpopular to say that, so not enough of us do say it. But popularity doesn't seem to be taking care of the problem.
I know your just derping. But how is Trump's debt different from FDR's (and every other scumbag in between)?
FDR: Debt for government spending to get us out of the Depression and then to pay for WWII.
Clinton actually balanced the budget....then...
W.Bush sstarting spending like a mad man for unecessary wars that created ISIS.
Obama, had to bail us out of a Republican causes financial mess.
Trump's debt is for the tax cuts for the Republican and his donors because that's what they paid for.
Some reasons why Trump sucks and his supporters are all morons:
1. N. Korea is back at their old shenanigans. More nukes! (So much for the "master deal maker")
2. After all that Reality TV Drama horseshit and pissing off Canada and Mexico, the new NAFTA is basically what was originally signed into law by Clinton.
3. The whole Caravan and border shit is nothing but a distraction and an overblown problem.
4. The tax cut did jack shit for me. And in the meantime, the national debt will increase another trillion or so and because of it, interests rates will rise, our standard of living will decrease, and our economy will slow - all to give his and the Republican donors their tax break at our expense
5. He undid Obama's environmental protections.
6. The wildfires in California were his fault: he didn't appoint an under secretary of Natural Resources and Environment until September of this year.
7. He hasn't been appointing people to important government positions - but playing golf
8. A useless tradewar that’s costing too much and hurting our economy.
9. Neutered the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
10. We still don’t have a better healthcare system than Obamacare. He did promise one!!
11. The wall hasn’t been built. (Good thing, but still a broken promise)
12. Still no trillion dollars in infrastructure spending. (Another broken promise.)
13. Firing people who are doing their job and not doing Trump's unethical and illegal bidding.
Indeed, it's pretty simple. It's just too bad that we'll have to keep trying supply-side economics until it either shows some signs of working for the first time ever, or the economy sucks itself in like the house at the end of Poltergeist.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
If you _need_ your next paycheck you are a 'wage slave'.
Is projecting financial success (e.g. buying all the house you were qualified for, new cars etc) worth making yourself a wage slave? The most important thing in financial negotiations is being able to say 'no'. If you employer/clients figure out you can't, you are really fucked, that's financially 'weak'.
I'm more or less at the same stage of life and income, but house and car(s) are paid for. No HOA, horse properties, acerage, kind of neighborhood.
There are many people who get a raise and gleefully think they can now afford a higher car payment, morons all.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The US is becoming more like Europe where generations tend to live together instead of each new generation setting out on their own. It's from a combination of 3 things:
1) Running out of land due to population growth. The remaining areas are either desert or mountainous. The rest competes with farming.
2) Jobs are less stable these days, making it harder to purchase a house. Lack of career stability also means you select "nimble" dwellings over big dwellings because you may have to move quickly for work change.
3) The wealth is log-jamming at the top. Most GDP growth is not trickling down to the middle class. The Great Recession merely accelerated the trend.
Table-ized A.I.
When people are the age of 18-30 these are their priorities.
1. Find someone to mate with
Beatniks, Hippies, Hipsters... who all seem to be the type of people the define how stupid of a generation is have a similar commonality. You are easily identified as part of a group, witch attracts people of your sexual persuasion who is also near your peer.
A lot of these kids protesting whatever many of them really don't care, they just want to be out with people their peers and possibly attract a mate.
if you are a straight guy and the lady you fancy feels strongly about a topic, you will probably go all in and feel just as strongly about that topic, only to attract her.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
My take on millennials is that just have a realistic perspective. They already know that corporations are amoral beasts with no humanity or loyalty, so they tend to view their relationship with corporate employers in a reciprocal fashion. They just ask themselves ... "If I were a corporation, how would I behave in this situation?" It's not surprising that some people don't view this enlightened attitude favorably.
FDR's spending extended the depression, it was ended by WWII.
Clinton had one _projected_ balanced budget (if you included SS accounting tricks), but it never happened. Dotcom imploded and the Clinton recession ended the hope, no balanced actual year.
The rest of your post is just idiotic.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I think most people want to feel useful, and oddly enough we equate suffering to being useful.
Hence why a lot of religions seems to have some harsh rules. Because we are suffering, we feel like we are getting more done.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
2008 great recession
crushing student debt
'gig' economy and decades of union busting
Future insolvency of social security
High rent and housing costs
Medical costs primary cause of bankruptcy
I wonder why millennials and gen-x have less money to spend, and those who do have some aren't spending as much.
Perhaps more are concerned about survival, than frivolously wasting money on consumer products that are engineered to be disposable and non serviceable. Perhaps seeing our parents struggle with credit card debt also had an effect.
LBJ was first to raid the SS trust.
Since then the trust has been full of IOUs. Before him there was no money in the trust as the system was cash flow negative (until the baby boom started working).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Nobody ever said you need to own a house to get married.
Nobody ever said you need $20,000 to get married.
A basic wedding can be done for around $300. Today.
Stop believing the marketroids. Even the ring is optional. Have a park picnic wedding, it's fun!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
"Loyalty is a paycheck away"
Life is not for the lazy.
From what I can tell, they are more likely to want to suppress free speech of those they don't agree with, claim victim hood when their feelings get hurt, boycott any company that doesn't completely surrender to their beliefs, and are getting closer every day to wanting to put those with alternate ideologies into gulags or mass graves.
Mainly the Boomers. No matter the personal politics, it is practically an article of faith that the Boomers are the sexiest, coolest, hardest working generation America has ever had. I don't think there is any generation in American history that has, collectively, disparaged its predecessors and successors to the extent they have.
1/3 of all Boomers intend to leave no inheritance. Think about that for a min. Something is truly rotten with them as a generation**
**yes, yes individuals notwithstanding
I think it comes from the early days - when millennials started entering the workforce - you know around high school or so when their first job is a minimum wage retail job.
The reason I believe this is well, if you talk to small business owners (the kind of people who generally hire them for the first job) they still maintain they're all the same.
Sure the job sucks, and perhaps they're putting into it what they're getting out, hence the "lazy" and other terms used for it, when maybe in previous generations they basically put effort into it even though it was a minimum wage McJob.
Of course, it seems after that the Real World(tm) hits and they get some life lessons into how the world works and shake off the image, because once they get a Real Job they actually are competent and hard working.
Now, if someone will explain to me how these "Digital Natives" can require so much IT support. They're supposed to be able to run rings around us "Digital Immigrants" in online activities...
You make it sound like that's something new. Loyalty to an employer is, at best, quaint. Nobody working today is unaware of that.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Do you call back when people are eliminated from consideration? No? There's your explanation.
They got a better offer, then _deliberately_ fucked you. No doubt it was payback for how you treated them during the interview process.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You need to present value the total cost of the wedding. It's never only $300, unless you're the woman, then it's still likely a negative number.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The mind likes to oversell the small concessions, it's totally okay to fly a weekend to Paris as long as you get a Fairtrade caffe latte with ecological soy milk. A small savings on a big expense, it was expensive but you got it on sale. You walked the stairs so super size that burger, you earned it. For some people it forms into the delusion that they're saving the world if they're slightly greener than those around them, like you're not fat if you can point to some other guy and say "no, he's fat"...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Money does not represent wealth. Money represents how much influence you have over other people.
We can always create more consumer goods, so that is not a zero sum game. But there is a finite amount of influence over others available (the maximum amount being total control of everyone).
So, influence over others IS a zero-sum game. The more I have, the less you have, and vice versa.
The less money the lower classes have, the more influence the top has over them. It's that simple.
Clinton had one _projected_ balanced budget (if you included SS accounting tricks), but it never happened. Dotcom imploded and the Clinton recession ended the hope, no balanced actual year.
The rest of your post is just idiotic.
What's up with this this graph and this graph, both from The United States federal budget wikipedia article then? Cooked books? Accounting shenanigans? Flat out lying? They fairly clearly show surpluses.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Only because he wouldn't commit. WWII was where he and the government were forced to commit, hence the Depression ended. Before that there was a cycle of "Spend, OK, we don't like spending so let's stop even though the problem hasn't been fixed, OH FUCK, let's try again"
(No, just because Trump and Bush are terrible doesn't mean Obama is good, he looks good compared to those two, but he's one of the most mediocre Presidents in history. There, I said it.)
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Holy fuck, they want PTO and sick days with NO EXPERIENCE? How dare they. Oh wait, every job I've ever worked has offered PTO and sick days to every employee (absent temps) no matter the experience. Maybe don't have a shit benefit policy?
Your ad here. Ask me how!
you're just temporarily inconvenienced millionaires, right?
.com and housing bubbles). They will not.
The boomers didn't have Credit Cards coming out their ears either. They didn't need them.
Next, You're probably going to trot out statistics on bigger homes. Fair enough, but we live in America. Land is cheap. Building homes is cheap. The only thing that isn't cheap is infrastructure (roads, water lines, sewer lines, electric lines, etc, etc). The boomers got that for free. GenX (my Gen) got the tail end of that. Millenials got shafted. If you can afford a home you can afford a big one because that's not where most of the cost is. Home prices are sky rocketing because without the government subsidizing building by doing the hard/expensive part that's what happens.
It's pretty well documented that Millenials make 20% less than boomers. I keep seeing again and again these articles of folks deep in debt and they can't understand why. It comes down to trying to live like their parents did even when their parents shafted them by voting for Trickle down economics just to get some short term tax cuts and maybe "stiggit" to the libs a bit. TFA is just more fuel on that fire.
For me the the question is will the Millenials stop voting for these chumps? Not sure. They tried with Trump, but, well, we can see how that worked out. They're still voting on their gut instead of on policy. Their parents and grandparents got away with that for a variety of external reasons (post WWII boom followed by
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
That is very accurate.
There is so much erroneous crap around the Social Security trust fund.
First, the trust fund really got it's start after the Greenspan Commission finished in 1983. Before that, Social Security basically did not have a trust fund. It was more-or-less spending everything that came in, as designed.
This broke down when GenX was much smaller than the Baby Boomers. There would not be enough money coming in from GenX and what would be called the Millennials to pay for the Boomer's retirement.
The Greenspan Commission's solution was to increase Social Security taxes so that Boomers and GenX built up a large trust fund which would pay for the Boomer's retirement.
The trust fund was never intended to be permanent. It was always supposed to be spent by the time the Boomers die. We're on-track for that, and the fact that the trust fund will be depleted around the time that the Boomers have died off means everything is working to plan.
The trust fund has always been invested in special US Government bonds. There were not new, special bonds created later by some president you hate to "loot" the trust fund. There was never any cash to loot.
The government can not default on only these bonds. If the government defaulted on these bonds, that would make all US government bonds be considered worthless. Because if you break a promise to one bondholder, no other bondholder can trust you to keep your promise to them. Even if Mitch McConnell pinky-swears.
The money is not "gone". It was never a big bank vault full of cash. It has always been invested into special US government bonds.
The debt does not "come due" at some specific point in the future where it all suddenly has to be paid back. Each bond has their own maturity date, and a constant stream of bonds are "coming due" at any particular time.
It was never "your money". Social Security is not a savings plan. You don't have a pile of cash with your name on it. The money you paid went into the pool that paid current retirees (or the trust fund to pay current retirees later). When you retire, people younger than you will be paying you. This is a good thing for the majority of people, because you will be paid significantly more than you paid in, including interest on that money.
No, you can not accomplish the same thing with a 401k with "safe" investments. It will not make enough money, because the return on safe investments is terrible.
We now return to your regularly scheduled lying about Social Security so that you blindly follow attempts to end it.
Clinton had one _projected_ balanced budget (if you included SS accounting tricks), but it never happened.
Nope
But please, keep lying. I'm sure someone will not bother doing a simple google search and believe you.
Let's not forget that when they talk about Millenials having less money -- it's only because of 3-4 things (not this horseshit line about the financial crisis):
1) Houses are under hyperinflation (relative to income) for 2+ decades. -- As far as I can tell mostly because Millenials will pay whatever a house is selling for.
2) College has been under hyperinflation for just under 2 decades. -- As far as I can tell because we were scared into college as a requirement and (most) our parents would pay whatever it was selling for.
3) Cars have gone under significant but not unmanageable inflation for just under 2 decades. -- They're safer and last longer. Financially a draw
4) Short lifespan PC / smartphone / electronics / appliance proliferation (and the need to own more different / specialty electronics). Sure a quality VHS VCR costs $1k in current dollars, but it was meant to last 6+ years, not 6-18 months like the average DVD or Blu-ray player. -- Because keeping up with the Joneses is now about how many different things you have doing pointless tasks in your home rather than general purpose computer + AV receiver + TV that did everything (Echo/Dot/Chromecast/Roomba/Soundbar/Nest/tablet/laptop/gamingPC/smartphone/etc.)
If you want people to buy your stuff, you need people who have the money to buy your stuff.
But...but....then I couldn't buy by 8th mansion!!! You don't expect me to get by on only 7, do you? That is so selfish of you!!
I'm not sure where all the disparagement towards millenials is coming from.
IMO, it's a combination of older people always having "these kids today" complaints, and the Boomers losing power for the first time in their lives.
I would mod you up if I had the points. Thanks for injecting some reality into this misleading discussion.
FDR's SS was at least honest-ish. It was clearly pay-as-you-go. The "reforms" of the 80s and 90s that attempted to make the program appear as though it was pre-funded are just the worst. Social Security is only in the black currently due to "interest" that the federal government pays to itself.... an accounting trick. It will soon be in the red despite this trick - but make no mistake: every dollar that flows in to SS is a dollar that cannot go toward other national priorities. Despite the accounting, the government only has one giant fund and it is zero-sum.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Excellent post. Close to the simplest explanation of this complex idea that I have seen. Here is an article that has some interesting suggestions. It gets a bit in the weeds. But, any fix will need to get a bit convoluted to explain to your average voter. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/h...
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
Did you really think the web page to buy treasury products would somehow demonstrate the lack of a budget surplus?
Or are you under the delusion that you can't run a budget surplus if a deficit exists?
Basically, I'm trying to figure out which flavor of wrong you are.
Then explain how there are more Millennials than GenXers.
It's just taxes to fund a social benefits program. This kind of stuff is not controversial anymore, but politicians need to make the difficult decision of where to either raise new revenue or where to make cuts. Remove the cap on the wage tax and you take care of about 70% of the problem. Raise the age of retirement by a single year more than makes up for the rest. Or, alternatively you could let rich people keep less of their SS income by increasing the tax on it above a certain threshold. The point is, treat it as an ongoing expense and try to balance the income and expenses rather than playing these stupid fucking games with fake trust funds. This just makes the problem worse when the fake trust fund "runs out".
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The mind likes to oversell the small concessions, it's totally okay to fly a weekend to Paris as long as you get a Fairtrade caffe latte with ecological soy milk. A small savings on a big expense, it was expensive but you got it on sale. You walked the stairs so super size that burger, you earned it.
It seems like you're entirely mixing up the groups you're ragging on. Those sound like two entirely different lifestyles.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
And, they want with NO EXPERIENCE, paid time off, sick days bla bla bla.
My god the horror! They want an employer who's not a total asshat. In Europe those rights are enshrined in law. Everyone gets them inexperienced or not.
that failed to show up on their start date, then when WE finally get in contact with them after they accepted a job, they say "oh, I changed my mind, or oh, I got a different job". Didn't even have the COURTESY of calling back.
Well, you sound like a total asshat. That certainly came across in the interview and the job offer with no vacation days. Try not being an asshat to your employees, potential or actual.
Add to that, with NO experience, they want a high salary because they have "massive debt" they are trying to pay off. NOT everyone needs to go to an expensive 4 year university. Trade schools offer a good way to make a living and are IN DEMAND
So why are you interviewing people with expensive 4 year degrees then rather than trade school qualifications?
but a lot of the millennials don't want to work hard,
I cannot imagine why people won't work hard for a low wage for an asshole employer who clearly hates them. It's a total mystery.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
4) Short lifespan PC / smartphone / electronics / appliance proliferation (and the need to own more different / specialty electronics)
short lifespan PC? I think you're a decade out. I remember buying my first proper PC in about 1997. A P133 and I invested in a whopping 72M of RAM which was worth it because it greatly extended the life of it relative to its contemporaries. I kept it for what was bloody ages by the standards of the day. People definitely thought I was very odd for using such a horrendously obsolete machine. I think I stopped using it really in around 2002.
I remember that PC's never lasted 10 years (what a ridiculous notion!) until suddenly they did and it came a bit of a shock. I'm writing this from an 8.5 year old laptop. It's not like my old P133 was at a mere 5 years. It's perfectly servicable and will likely remain so for a while yet.
I still haven't really got used to the idea of PCs wearing out and breaking rather than being chucked in the bin due to rapid obsolescence. I don't know anyone on the PC upgrade treadmill any more.
Smartphones, sure, yes. They're like what PCs were in the 90s. It'll even out for them like it did for PCs as the market matures.
Sure a quality VHS VCR costs $1k in current dollars, but it was meant to last 6+ years, not 6-18 months like the average DVD or Blu-ray player.
$1k for 6 years versus $30 every year or two? The modern way sounds like a massive bargain.
Because keeping up with the Joneses is now about how many different things you have doing pointless tasks in your home rather than general purpose computer + AV receiver + TV that did everything
Outside of a nerd home that sort of thing never existed because it took too much time and knowledge to set up and maintain. It's still how I do things, but that's because I already use my computer a lot, already have the knowledge and have very particular tastes. Though I will note that almost everyone has finally cause up with mplayer after a scant 15 years or so and has a 10 second skip back/forward button on their video players.
Except I do have an e-reader since my general purpose computer doesn't have an e-ink screen and neithre does its battery last for several weeks.
Roomba/
If your general purpose computer can double as a roomba, well, you're doing some serious shit.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Bullshit.
All those fixes assume the bonds in the trust are good assets. We're down to 'print money'. It's about three trillion $US of pure bullshit, that's 15% of GDP.
Our only hope is another currency fucks up even harder and capital flight saves us...I'm looking at you British Pound...You too Euro. We might ride it out on the presses, but someone is getting fucked. It's bad when your hope is other nations have screwed their baby boom retirement even worse.
Also note we're all operating near the peak of the Laffer curve. Raising tax rates will certainly lower revenue for the euros, we might be able to raise ours a little and gain revenue.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
who are trying to keep the working class divided per instructions by their owners; aka the 1%; aka the ruling class.
A ruling class always needs to keep the working class fighting among themselves because if they stop they'll notice the ruling class laughing all the way to the bank. This is also why we have racism.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
at least you get an interview. Nowadays thanks to H1-Bs you won't even get the time of day w/o a degree of some sort. Not everybody's got the chops for a STEM degree. You make due with what you've got when it comes to brains.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
a lot of the Trump faithful decreased withholding following the tax cut. But they don't earn enough for the tax cut to matter. They're in for a rude awakening in April....
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
But that's not entirely true. Social security works for a pre-1950's death and birth rate.
Nowadays there are more people retiring than people entering the workforce, which is unsustainable because, being a government-thing, they can't just adjust the rates based on age (eg younger people pay more because they will require longer payouts) which a private 'insurance' company can do.
There is an even bigger myth that the Social Security plan is a good investment.
The rate you pay in is 6.2% of your income for 47 years. If you retire at 65, you benefit ~18 years from said plan (you pay in 2.5 times longer than you benefit). However, SS pays out an average of ~$16k/year (2.5x less than median income). So really you're taxed 15% of your entire life's income and your "savings account" will have only accrued at a rate slightly better than parking it in a bank savings account.
Even during recessions a well spread rmarket investment on retirement funds accrues at 8-10%. If you have a private retirement fund when you're relatively young, you will know that you can match the social security projections (the 6.2%) at a rate of investment of ~2%.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Forgot to mention: If you're self-employed, your social security "investment" triples but you get the same rate out. So "small business" really pays for everyone's social security and has negative interest rates.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
All those fixes assume the bonds in the trust are good assets.
Re-read my comment. I say "The point is, treat it as an ongoing expense and try to balance the income and expenses rather than playing these stupid fucking games with fake trust funds."
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Calling eliminated candidates back to tell them you're not choosing them is an invitation to a lawsuit. If they're in a protected class they can sue for discrimination. Instead, the correct move is to cut off all contact with no explanation. It sucks, but it's better than being driven out of business by lawsuits.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Millennials and Boomers agree on one thing: GenX should pay for the whole thing. And we will, because they outvote us. Hooray for us!
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
their money tied up in real estate
That's the whole point. The money isn't "tied up" at all. If I buy real estate someone else gets the money and does things with it.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I live in central america. Funny I must have missed this horrible crisis everyone seems to be running from.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The money is not "gone". It was never a big bank vault full of cash. It has always been invested into special US government bonds.
No, it was for some time invested in marketable treasuries. Now it's not.
It was never "your money". Social Security is not a savings plan.
It damn well should be. People should become wealthy.
No, you can not accomplish the same thing with a 401k with "safe" investments. It will not make enough money, because the return on safe investments is terrible.
The return on Social Security is below inflation. You can make about 2% above inflation safely. Far better. You can make about 4% above inflation with a "target retirement date" fund, which have proven themselves well over the past couple of decades.
Regardless, Social Security won't be something you can even subsist on if you're under 50 now, that much is obvious. We need to try something better - something with takes the money away from the sticky fingers of government and makes everyone wealthy.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
If you at least bought that 8th mansion. But instead you're bunkering that money in some bank, hoping that finally you find something worthwhile to "invest" in. Not realizing that a worthwhile investment requires that that investment finds someone to sell to, which requires that this someone not only wants/needs what is offered but also can afford it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The problem is the interest payments on those bonds is 25% of our income approximately a trillion dollars annually.
Right now $8-10 trillion of the national debt is money owed to social security.
We are only paying back interest we are not paying back principal. Once you start down the road of only paying interest the only way out is through a massive influx of non debt cash or bankruptcy.
At some point the usa is going to have to declare bankruptcy as every time we fix the long term problem a republican comes along with tax cuts. Bush jt did it, and Trump has done it.
Republicans saw this problem in the late 90's and forced Clinton into a 10 year tax schedule to shore and fix it. In 2002 bush started his tax cuts and in 2010 12 years later social security became a net drain on the budget and has been growing worse since.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
The only thing wrong with SS is the lack of protection against the money being redirected. SS is YOUR money, and any redirection from that purpose is essentially theft.
That's the ONLY time that I'll actually agree with the crazy "taxes are theft" crowd. SS is a forced retirement account... one that I really don't have a problem with in concept apart from the way people find ways to steal your retirement money for some other purpose. Fix that, make it whole from past theft, and it'd work just fine.
Saying the government shouldn't be able to force people to save some minimal amount for their own future is missing the point of government. Government exists to fix societal problems that wouldn't otherwise be addressed. People won't always just behave themselves? Police, laws, jail. People's houses burn down occasionally? Fire department. Foreign countries attack us? Military. People end up destitute because they suck at planning for the future? SS. All this stuff has to be paid for? Taxes.
For fuck's sake, I'm not entirely sure the country will exist when I hit retirement age
Then you're more interested in being edgy and nihilist than reality.
But shit, I could mean the life-sustaining condition of the landmass
No prediction about climate change renders any of the US uninhabitable by humans. It's a huge problem for agriculture, but humans can still live where specific plants can not.
Or I could mean our entire species
Extinction of an entire species with as many individuals as humans is extremely difficult. Climate change could kill billions, but that still leaves billions alive.
But some people think massive hyperbole is the best way to get people to care about it, so they push it.
"When you retire" is so far off radar I'm struggling to depict the gap.
And the people seeking to destroy Social Security know that and are counting on it. 'Cause you're not going to kill yourself, but you will vote many more times before retirement starts to feel real to you. (And that reality is not necessarily pleasant. It could really feel like you're going to have to work until you die)
But that's not entirely true. Social security works for a pre-1950's death and birth rate.
It also works for the current death and birth rate. The increase in taxes to build up the trust fund has never been rescinded. That increased tax rate makes up for the smaller difference in generational size. Or almost makes up for it. Depends on who's predictions you want to believe about the economy 40-50 years from now.
It will work as long as the following generations are at least a little larger than the previous ones. GenX will probably be fine - Millennials are larger than GenX, and the subsequent generation looks like it will be larger than Millennials. We can't really make any decent predictions about the Millennials since that relies on guessing how many kids will be born to people who are currently toddlers.
Even if the predictions of an eventual shortfall are correct, the fix is pretty damn easy: Raise the cap on the tax. Income inequality means that Social Security taxes no longer apply to a significant percentage of total US income. Raise the cap a bit, and you get back to applying to the same percentage of income.
Nowadays there are more people retiring than people entering the workforce
That would be the entire reason for the Greenspan Commission and the creation of the massive trust fund. Baby boomers are retiring.
It is a lie to pretend that this trend will continue forever. Because the Baby Boom followed by GenX is an anomaly.
There is an even bigger myth that the Social Security plan is a good investment.
What makes it a "good" investment for retirement is it is an extremely safe investment. It's the backstop for when all else has failed. Which means comparing it to the return you could get from a 401k or IRA is not the best idea. Those could utterly fail you if you happen to be unlucky, such as if you retired in 2006.
So what you need to compare it to is the return on a similarly safe investment. Such as...the US bonds the Social Security trust fund invests in.
If you're self-employed, your social security "investment" triples
You're paying both halves of payroll taxes if you're self-employed. If you're paying 3x payroll taxes, you need a better accountant.
You don't need to represent everyone to know what's going on around you.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
No, telling them _why_ you haven't selected them is an invitation to a lawsuit. Just like saying why you're firing someone, unless documented well enough to avoid paying unemployment.
Anybody can sue for anything, protected classes can likely get a shyster on contingency to sue for anything. That's true, but just dropping contact doesn't change that.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
HOLY SHIT you just used an anti-Semitic slur. Slashdot is turning into a racist alt-right website everyday and it's terrifying. This sort of vile hate is being normalized more and more. I can't sleep at night because I'm being reminded that anti-Jewish sentiment is being accepted and normalized every day.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
I am probably replying too early but I HAD to reply after this:
First, the trust fund really got it's start after the Greenspan Commission finished in 1983. Before that, Social Security basically did not have a trust fund. It was more-or-less spending everything that came in, as designed.
No no no no. Up until right around 1980, Social Security was kept as dollars, just sitting there. I was too young to vote or be involved in politics, but I saw the Senators and such discussing this and voting on it. What was said was something like:
We have hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars just sitting here, set aside for Social Security. This money should be put to work instead of just sitting there. Soooooo, they passed a bill to, essentially, buy US Government bonds with those hundreds of billions of dollars. So they did. So now, there are only "promises" in the Social Security account and Social Security payments are made from the General Fund.
A really nifty way to take a few hundred billion dollars. You get the additional benefit of now pointing out that since Social Security payments to individuals are made out of the General Fund, we can all complain about how the old people are costing us money... when the money those older people paid in was already spent! They already paid for their benefits, but now, it is a drag on modern society because the young are now paying for the old since the money that the older people put in (pre 1980) was spent by the Federal Government.
I may have another reply to your voluminous post, but that Social Security statement REALLY riled me up because I remember thinking about what would happen when they changed the system... and it is happening, just as I predicted when I was 11'ish years old.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
ooooooo I was right. There is sooooooo much wrong with your post. I really did reply too soon. Meh. I am not up to arguing with you about this so I will just leave this little morsel here:
It was never "your money". Social Security is not a savings plan.
Odd. It was always my money and always has been. It is listed right there in my check as me having earned it, they just took it out and made it "theirs".
Hm. After a moment's thought, I am fairly well along on the idea that you are a plant or government agent. The information and attitudes that you are conveying are exactly opposite of what reality is: Social Security was established to be like a bank account where you are forced to put money towards taking care of yourself once you are older and unable to work. It was not until around 1980 that they took all of the money that was in Social Security and bought bonds with it so the Federal Government could spend the hundreds of billions dollars just sitting there. Well, once they spent that money, it became possible to turn everything around, like you are now, and claim that the "money was never yours". Ummm, yes it was. Fuck you for fucking over so many people with your greed. A country is NOTHING without its people so the idea of sacrificing older people on the altar of advancing American Exceptionalism around the world is a gross abuse of the people who make the country what it is.
The cart is before the horse on this one. The country can't be important than its people because the country is nothing without its people.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
The dogpiling is to shift attention and blame. The USA is being hollowed out from the inside. There is still a crunchy outer shell, but all of the tasty stuff on the inside is gone. Someone is Bain'ing the United States as a whole. :(
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
We are only paying back interest we are not paying back principal.
False.
Bonds work like this: "You give me $100. In 1 year, I'll give you $105".
There are no "interest payments". It is not a credit card. When a bond comes due, both the interest and principal are paid.
At some point the usa is going to have to declare bankruptcy
Doubtful. We are still able to sell bonds at an extremely low interest rate, and that's not going to suddenly change. (There was a paper claiming there is an inflection point, but the authors of that paper "accidentally" forgot to include all the data they claimed to be using. Including all the data results in no "interest cliff".)
There could be a potential problem if we had to stop issuing bonds in US Dollars. That's what happened to countries like Greece and Spain - the Euro meant they couldn't use monetary policy to make their downturns less painful. But the US is going to issue bonds in US Dollars for the foreseeable future.
We have hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars just sitting here, set aside for Social Security
We did not have hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars just sitting there, because there was not a large trust fund yet. The surpluses (in the years they had them) were fairly small.
So now, there are only "promises" in the Social Security account and Social Security payments are made from the General Fund.
So what? Breaking those promises would cause the economic collapse of the country. It would make 2008 look like a minor event. So they are not going to be broken.
The alternative you strangely think is superior would be to literally have a vault full of cash that returns exactly 0% interest. Which would have made the Boomer-GenX size problem even worse because interest payments could not be used to reduce the Social Security taxes collected.
You get the additional benefit of now pointing out that since Social Security payments to individuals are made out of the General Fund, we can all complain about how the old people are costing us money
You seem to have forgotten about the years before 1983 when Social Security did run a deficit and was paid from a transfer from the General Fund.....and there were no mobs seeking to off grandma.
Odd. It was always my money and always has been. It is listed right there in my check as me having earned it, they just took it out and made it "theirs".
Your quasi-religious belief that "taxation is theft" does not change the basic accounting involved. The money you pay in today gets paid out tomorrow. It can't be "saved for you" if it's already been paid out to someone older.
And, here's the key to getting your head around this: The accounting has always been done this way. Since 1940, the tax money collected from the young was paid to the old.
Your contributions are only tracked to determine how much money you get from young people when you do retire.
Hm. After a moment's thought, I am fairly well along on the idea that you are a plant or government agent.
You've been on the receiving end of a lifetime of propaganda. You're going to have some cognitive dissonance when reality starts intruding on your carefully-astroturfed worldview. But your desire for reality to be different does not change what reality is.
The country can't be important than its people because the country is nothing without its people.
Pssst...."people" is more than you. "People" includes the elderly. That's why we, the people, decided to provide a retirement backstop for them.
Your fixes are 'derp', the underlying numbers don't work.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Explain? It's very straightforward - either increase income or decrease expenditures. This isn't rocket science.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.