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US Geological Survey Unable To Provide Indonesia Tsunami Data Due To Government Shutdown (huffingtonpost.com.au)
An underwater landslide caused by activity from the Anak Krakatau volcano is being blamed for a tsunami that struck Indonesia late Saturday, killing at least 222 people and injuring more than 800 others. Normally, the U.S. Geological Survey would report on such events and provide any necessary data it had to the public. But it can't due to America's partial government shutdown, which began Saturday after President Donald Trump refused to sign legislation that didn't include funding for his southern border wall. From a report: The USGS website is dormant as of Sunday, except for a notice at the top. "Due to a lapse in appropriations, the majority of USGS websites may not be up to date and may not reflect current conditions," the note reads. "Websites displaying real-time data, such as Earthquake and Water and information needed for public health and safety will be updated with limited support." According to the government shutdown contingency plan, the USGS will retain just 75 of its estimated 8,032 employees, or 0.9 percent. "The USGS will suspend the majority of its activities with the exception of those functions to protect life and property," the plan states. The document also claims that 450 employees will be "on call" for natural disasters, but it's unclear if that process has been enacted, as the USGS website says the agency is not "able to respond to inquiries until appropriations are enacted."
It's a shame that this far right tantrum us wasting money and will keep government employees from being paid on time. Furloughed workers will get back pay for them not to work during the shutdown. The shutdown will probably extend into January, and employees who are working will have their paycheck delayed. Meanwhile, many very useful but non-essential services aren't being provided at all. Shame on the far right.
During Gov shutdowns the departments still get their funding and everyone is salaried anyway. We all took it as an excellent excuse to not go into work and still get paid.
This happened several times over the last two administrations. New boss is same as the old boss and some extra paid time off has always been welcomed.
Trump would gladly sign legislation if Senate democrats cared one whit about border security. For some inexplicable reason they've done a full 180 on it over the past decade (Obama, Hillary and Biden all voted for a border fence) and now they propose to have no Southern border at all because "who's gonna pick my cotton" reasons. I get why they are doing this. Once legalized, illegals overwhelmingly vote Dem. There are some 15 million of them in the country already, and margins are razor thin in a lot of cases, so legalizing even a substantial fraction of illegals means permanent voting majority. But as a US citizen and taxpayer, I abhor this logic, and will do everything I can so they can't pull it off. This is bullshit, pure and simple. I demand a protected Southern border, now.
Lock him up
I don't know if people post this in jest, but on a serious note, Trump will win the 2020 election. That's just the way the historic dice rolled.
Unless he crashes the economy or gets impeached. But both of those are extremely unlikely.
It’s too late for that. He may be impeached during his second term though.
-- Cheers!
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It's amazing that you're an even more worthless piece of shit than Trump is. I honestly didn't think there were that many around, given that it's so low of a bar.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Why aren't the Trump-loving libertarians opposing this on the fact that it will be the US taxpayer paying for the wall when their dear leader promised them the Mexicans would pay for it?
Could it be libertarians are just a bunch of hypocritical cunts?
Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
You mean that when US citizens buy Mexican goods they would pay a tax? In which case you really do need to understand something: those people who are paying are not from Mexico. They are what is known as "Americans". For clarity: people from the USA.
This is NOT anywhere near "Mexico is paying for the wall". It is "Trump wants a tax on US citizens so the US can pay for a wall".
Regardless of whether you blame Trump or the DNC for the shutdown, what astounds me is that it is permitted to happen at all.
The solution to this would be to enact some legislation that automatically funds major departments at (say) 95% of the previously agreed budget until a new budget is agreed.
Even if that is not acceptable, some employees are expected to work without a paycheck - again legislation should be enacted that 'essential' employees (e.g. emergency services) are automatically funded.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I just wonder why it is the job of the American taxpayer to pay for, provide and manage Indonesia's tsunami warning system. We are thanks to both parties in Washington 22 trillion in debt and that is growing out of control.
;)
Just my 2 cents
We hear you and are trying to fuck off, but the Democrats, as usual, are throwing fits because we're reducing the number of brown people we bomb daily.
WHY would you fund something that from the cost/benefit perspective surely must be one of the dumbest ideas any US government has ever had?
Ezekiel 23:20
That's a blatant lie. The republican controlled states borrow more money than they give and are home to the poorest people. It's the reverse for democrat controlled states.
You guys can't even tell a good lie anymore.
Hey guess what? If it were not for Trump the government would still be fully up (only.a tiny part is really shut down) - at the same time it is ALSO true that if even ten Democrats agreed to fund the wall, the government would be fully up as well.
Fund the wall? The same wall that he promised that the Mexicans would pay for? That wouldn't cost taxpayers anything? What a nice way to keep your campaign promises. But then again, he has never been much for keeping any kinds of promises has he?
Why would any sane human being (Democrats, Republicans or whatever) agree to fund one mans lunatic vanity project? Show me a 20-foot wall and I will show you a 21-foot ladder. That wall is not going to help very much, other than be a huge waste of taxpayer money and pocket lining for opportunist (or worse, corrupt) construction companies.
Pretty much the most intelligent comment on here, and some twit still downmodded it to -1.
Speaking of the unstoppable juggernaut of government, aren't you a bit worried about it trying to piss away billions of your dollars on something known not to work? I mean China built a wall far bigger and better than the one Trump wants, and that wasn't very effective...
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
He doesn't have to be personally impeached, just have members of his immediate family sent to jail with charges pending for him the moment he steps down.
That the Democrats are keeping quiet doesn't mean they don't have anyone. It just means that they took the advice to never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake, and don't see any value in providing opportunities for the Republicans to start smearing their candidates early.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The Democrats and Republicans had a spending bill ready to go - which included $1.6 billion for border security (including fencing).
Trump got goaded by Fox News and other right wing multi-millionaire professional political trolls, and is throwing this temper tantrum.
That spineless lying sack of shit Mitch McConnell stood there and just said that it's between the Democrats and Trump - 100% bullshit.
If Mitch had and balls he'd stand up to Trump and with the bill that he already agreed to pass with the Democrats, just ram the fucker through.
But no, McConnell and all the Republicans in Washington are cowardly lying pieces of shit that put party before country.
The Republican party has lost all honor, credibility and all sense of duty.
Fuck them forever! Bring back the Federalists!
The only way he'll get elected is if the Democrats are stupid enough to run a left-wing loon like Bernie or Warren. My bet is on impeachment though. If Mueller turns up enough naughty things, and Republicans in Congress feel he's too toxic, he's toast.
Democrats forced The first and one term Bush to raise taxes to pay for Iraq war. Lost re-election and more importantly the Republican Party headed far right refusing to compromise. Trump swooped in as a change of guard felt worth a risk by many and others apathetic soured they all suck. Careful what you wish for coz unintended consequences. One of numerous speculations. This is Government at work part of the process. For propaganda Congress could offer to match Mexicoâ(TM)s contributions toward a wall ;) though for a win Make it a firewall instead.
Japan nearby with similar fears of tsunamis having coined the term offers studies as well. This is a well known risk to many but since hard to predict and costly to monitor we take our chances.
AC everyone wins by not having it automated.
A local scientist in some 3rd, 4th world nations wants a better job and some US supported budget. A nice SUV grant and decades of work?
Roads, a new lab, computers, sites to collect from, networking. Trips to and from remote sties. Payments for the travel.
Thats jobs and a real income for generations that will be thankful to the USA.
Thats not going to happen with an automated system from the USA.
The CIA likes to have US "experts" move around nations like Indonesia under the plausible cover of new support work for US "science".
The spare parts and upgrades. Thats parts and services to fly into Indonesia and then have work done. Often and with US "tax payers" paying for work for international science.
The movement of US equipment around Indonesia is more money. Pilots, trucks. Support to get the science done.
The US embassy likes the interaction with US backed science and to show the USA helping in different parts of Indonesia - Hearts and minds.
A nice trip out to a different part of Indonesia by US embassy workers. CIA and real diplomats selling US science and tech.
US scientists get to add "international" work to their list of things they have done. That they can go to another nation and do science with another nations scientists.
Jobs back in the USA to export all that science and tech equipment. That can lobby for human scientists who need to be doing work with science in a a lot of other nations.
US tax payers will pay for their exports so its always a lot of 3rd and 4th world nations that need more US equipment.
Everyone is "winning" by not doing an automated system direct from the USA.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
But that "tiny part that is shut down" should not include emergency notification of global disasters. Imagine if the 2004 megatsunami had occurred during a US shutdown? The Indian Ocian had no Pacific-style warning system of its own.
Think of the wall this way, it would give up any excuse and force a comprehensive reform in immigration. This not only restores the rule of law to immigration (itself immeasurable important) it forces the quasi-slave state the US is creating in having non-citizens with rights only given by "hey, we'll look the other way for now" to go into a legal, defined, protected status.
'Cause Team America: World Police, that's why.
PS Is the CIA still illegally fighting the House of Saud's war of conquest in Yemen for them during the shutdown or is starving Yemeni children critical to national security?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Maybe you are not skilled or poorly skilled in Google Foo but it is widely accepted that it isn't a complete waste.
I didn't say it was net negative, budget-wise, just that there are surely much better investments for taxpayers. If, for example, avoidance of lost revenue is to be pursued here, as the article seems to suggest, what about stopping gutting the IRS instead? Taking the numbers from that article of yours at face value (which doesn't even seem to suggest any operational cost for the project, or did I misread it?), the wall is peanuts compared to the uncollected taxes.
Ezekiel 23:20
What?? The Great Wall of China was TREMENDOUSLY effective, shielding the country from the horsemen of the north for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before it was allowed to crumble to such an extent that the Mongols were able to just ride through the gaps.
(Emphasis mine)
How can you allege that using the term "historic" to refer to events that haven't happened yet can possibly result in anybody but people who believe in time travelers ever taking you seriously?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Walls work, cutting illegal immigration by 99%. Provided it's done right, and you actually extend the length of the border (which the Great Wall in China does not).
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Okay... I'm going to play devil's advocate here... but allow me to present what I think may be a twisted logic reasoning that could show how Mexicans are ultimately paying for the wall.
The tariffs will increase costs for Americans, true... but this increased cost could, in general, translate to reduced demand for imports, which in turn would force the nations from which the tariffs are being applied to have to lay off workers that produce those goods, thereby indirectly harming that nation's economy.
That's the best guess I can take at this... and I expect there's problems with it, but I imagine that those problems are probably based on a reality about foreign trade that Trump, for whatever reason, simply doesn't happen to believe in.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The Republicans control both houses of Congress (until the 3rd), and there is a Republican President. The two houses did come together and put together a bill to continue funding the government into the new year, when there would be a new Congress to take over. Unfortunately, the President (a Republican, note) said loud and clear that he would not sign it.
Paul Ryan (another Republican) could have sent the bill to the floor anyway for a vote, but decided not to. Note that he easily had the votes to override a Presidential veto (the Democrats were in favor of the bill) but he did not want to challenge the President. This is either easier or harder to understand in light of his impending retirement depending on what you think of his character.
If you think this is the Democrats flexing their muscles, you have an entirely unrealistic view of that party's competence and skill.
This is the Legislative branch ceding too much power to the Executive branch and then refusing to stand up to a populist strong-man.
And "Criminal charges of manslaughter"? Are you serious? You do know that the government shutdown did not cause the tsunami, right?
Sure, because every Mexican and Central American has $300-500 for a 31 foot ladder and is going to hike it in with them.
Nobody, save the people like you, tring to strawman your ass off, EVER claimed that a wall would "solve illegal immigration".
It's about presenting a clear deterrent to overland immigration. Which then allows us to make the most of our manpower and monetary resources combatting other forms of illegal economic migration.
But we can't really do that when we don't ACTUALLY control our own border.
But please, go back to pretending you actually understand the situation.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
True, it worked there, but Trump doesn't seem to be proposing that style of wall. Certainly the budget is only to build it, and the wall in Israel is guarded which is an on-going cost. It's less than 150 miles long, where as the US one will need to be 2000 miles long.
It's hard to come up with a figure for guarding a 2000 mile long wall on difficult terrain.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
There is no cut in manpower for CBP in the budget; a wall makes it easier to patrol (a defined barrier with a clear path along it). And whilst our barrier would be ~3 times as long, we have ~40 times the population and spending to allow for it. If it works - it works. It's just a matter of political willpower.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Historically if the incumbent runs again they tend to win. Also, however, historically a party does not win more than 2 terms in a row. So it is quite likely that, if he does win again, the Democrats will win in 2024.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
It is a political hit piece, nothing more. As for Indonesia, it is just bad timing that things happened while someone was 'on vacation', it should also be a lesson.
The only historical thing about it what you are saying is that Trump is *LIKELY* to win... which is a far fry from suggesting that he *will* win as being some kind of historically validated fact.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I see only two problems with it.
The first is that I don't really think the wall will stop/significantly impair illegal immigration. People will find a way. When I was a pipe-layer all of our laborers were illegal immigrants. Most of them did not walk across the desert to get here. Some even came by plane.
The second is that if it did work, it would create tremendous economic disruption as we would have a huge labor shortage at the bottom of the economy. Just how much are you willing to pay for a pound of tomatoes? Of course the market would adjust (over time) but there's a period where production is drastically reduced. That's a problem. As wages get driven up in that adjustment (and THAT ripples through the entire economy) your corporate profits decline. That's another problem.
As an alternative, why not just DO the comprehensive immigration reform? You still get some market disruption, but it's WAY more limited in both scale and scope.
There was a war fought, oh, around 1776. It was about the last person to go tell Americans to bend a knee.
Americans have no kings, not you, not Alien Boy, none.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Approximately 420,000 federal employees continued to work through the shutdown. The handful of employees needed to handle this certainly could have been deemed "essential" as well under the circumstances.
This is just a cynical political decision to suspend a high-visibility, low-cost service to try to pressure the shutdown to end, exactly like the cynical political decision to barricade national monuments (and even disable the corresponding websites) during the 2013 shutdown.
China's wall didn't work very well because far too many of the gate keepers were corrupt and took bribes to let the barbarians through. Hadrian's wall worked because the men in charge weren't corrupt. It's not a matter of picking the wrong men, either, it's a matter of culture. Chinese officials were expected to feather their own nests, although it was sometimes used as an excuse to bring somebody down who had fallen from favor. Roman officials (especially military officials) were expected to administer the law objectively, without consulting their own interests, and any corruption was swiftly and severely punished.
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FWIW, I think the economy is about to crash. The US has entered every new decade for the last 100 years in a recession or depression, within 1 or two years plus or minus. We're one year out and we have shaky market news following a strong bull run.
Although a lot of the underlying metrics look good, I have my doubts, especially in the employment numbers. A lot of the "employed" today are underemployed at traditional jobs or are working in parts of the gig economy that do not provide high standards of living. I have only very recently started to see signs of competition for labor driving wage growth.
I hope I'm wrong, though.
Well, figure out w way to do planetary science that benefits only Americans, and make sure that's a better deal for us than sharing knowledge with the rest of the world would be.
The US is a global economic and military power. If you think we do this kind of shit out of pure altruism, that's rather naive. Science is a real part of our soft power around the world, and a bargain compared to what we spend on hard power.
Our global scientific might not only benefits us directly economically, it brings the best minds in the world to us and gives our voice a weight far in excess of the 4% of the world's population we represent. True, we represent about a quarter of world GDP, but that gives the other 96% of the world plenty of incentive to take us down a peg.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
If only science spending actually *was* bankrupting the US economy...
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Technology has changed. Cameras and sensors got cheap. Drones got cheap.
Better analytics mean we know that the value of a wall at controlling the border is less than other alternatives. Texas sent the national guard to police the border at a cost of $120k per illegal immigrant caught. Statistically we know those illegals would have caused less trouble than their native counterparts, so we know we didn't save any money on crime prevention. We could have given every American put out of work a full, 4 year ride to college with money to support their families for the cost of keeping those illegals out.
And while we're on the subject, if you want to keep illegals out there's a much, much better solution: STOP DESTABILIZING THEIR GODDAMNED COUNTRIES FOR CHEAP FRUIT AND OIL.
Yeah, yeah, I know I shouldn't shout, but come'on. In Brazil our CIA just executed a plan to kick a progressive chief executive out of her position and put a far right one in it's place. This isn't conspiracy, it's pretty well documented we were involved. You don't think that's going to have consequences? Why did we do it? Oil. She would have spend the oil profits on her country, and we can't have that.
If you want to stop the flow of "migrant caravans" you have to stop screwing with Mexico and South America's economies. Yes, that means the price of oil will go up ever so slightly, and it means you're going to have to vote for left wing candidates who oppose CIA intervention for the sake of American Mega Corps. For some that's maybe too bitter a pill to swallow. But if you actually want your jobs back (or maybe just a "whiter" America, yes, for some people that's the goal and it's naive to pretend it's not) that's how you do it.
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thereby indirectly harming that nation's economy.
So if I want you to give me $100, instead I fund the $100 myself, call your boss and get you fired in a way that costs you money, it's somehow the same as you paying me $100?
That's not playing devils advocate, that is failing primary school level logic.
I admitted that the logic was twisted...
Of course it's stupid, but try convincing Trump of that.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Or in other words, "Fake News"".
"which began Saturday after President Donald Trump refused to sign legislation that didn't include funding for his southern border wall."
President Trump cannot sign legislation that hasn't been approved by both houses of Congress, and the "McConnell/Schumer Shutdown" is the result of the SENATE's failure to pass the budget. Schumer is adamant that there will be no border wall, and McConnell is content to let Schemer continue to hold the budget hostage. Americans by and large WANT a border wall; that was Trump's biggest promise, and he was elected on that promise.
However, the lack of USGS support isn't hampering Indonesia's efforts at all; it's merely the only thing anybody can think of to cite as the "catastrophic effects" of a partial shutdown of 25% of the US Federal government.
"Has fact checking become so hard that even the reporters, looking at you msmash, are unwilling to do their job and perpetuate the fake news target? "
Why yes, yes it has.
... or shut it the heck down.
Period. As a legal immigrant that came on O1 visa I hate the lazy asses who crawled into the first world from their shitholes as "fiances" or crawled under the fence.
From the other hand. Every single foreigner who decided "screw this shit, I am going to America" immediately becomes a spiritual American in many ways more American that people born here. He is courageous, he is enterprising enough to deserve a shot at the pursuit of happiness, to climb to that city on the hill.
That does not mean of course that we should just grant this shot to every single guy who is willing to move to US.
That's why we need a balance in the immigration. The selection. Selection means control. Illegal immigration is unchecked and uncontrolled. Mara Salvatrucha is a very real threat to American way of life.
SO:
Wall or GTFO.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
The Brirish did. The IRA are now in government doing good rather than killing people.
The Colombian people rejected peace and are now locked in a death struggle. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Don't be an idiot and learn.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
As I read this it seems like all they are missing from USGS is post incident reporting. I'm not saying that is unimportant, but there wasn't going to be any tsunami warning from USGS anyway. This was a non-tectonic landslide in a confined region. It's much like the September wave, I think: small, fast, and local.
They actually HAVE a local warning system for exactly this type of event, but it has been poorly managed and funded.
My point is that because the USGS is able to see all damaging seismic events worldwide, we have a duty to warn other people about something that we can see. It's like being first at a car wreck. It's not your fault and not your problem, but it's human nature to be helpful if you can.
If we didn't without a valid excuse, you anti-American lefties would be the first to whine about it.
My math skills say the Republicans currently have majorities in both the House and Senate. Or are you using some new math no one knows about.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Quite frankly I was a middle of the road person, but I am heavily leaning more towards repub lately with how childish the dems are being.
I feel ya.. I didn't use to have an opinion one way or the other on trannies and homosexuals, but after the left kept trying to cram their ideology down my throat with the most extreme examples, I have become decidedly more "right". I couldn't have cared less if two guys (or gals) got married. But when the left started telling me that a human with a penis and tits was a woman... Yeah, I don't think so.
You do realize that the only source of ladders isn't the $300-500 ones from the hardware store right? It is one of humanity's oldest inventions. Also ladders are not one-time use items.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Er what? The word "Khan" means ruler because the Great Wall wasn't effective.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
He doesn't have to be personally impeached, just have members of his immediate family sent to jail with charges pending for him the moment he steps down.
Why is it you people don't get this: All Trump has to do, legally, is resign 20 minutes before his term ends. Pence would be sworn in as President and then he can pardon Trump for any and all crimes he may or may not have committed. I'm not saying this is "right" or "wrong". I'm saying it's legal, it's constitutional, and I'm saying he's not going to jail. The only place Trump sits in jail is in delusional liberal fantasies. I don't know if 20 minutes would be enough time, that's a bit of exaggeration on my part, but certainly a single day would suffice.
What's really sad is that you all (left and right) are a bunch of fucking morons. Not a single person, in this whole discussion, has mentioned what is actually shutting the government down.
We have run out of fucking money.. ALL OF IT IS GONE.
Trump is using this to his advantage (or so he thinks), but POLITICIANS have spent every last dime we have, including everything we have borrowed so far. There is none left.
For the government to continue to operate fully we have to BORROW MORE FUCKING MONEY.
Every goddamn year, without end, we borrow MORE AND MORE AND MORE.
No, Clinton didn't have a fucking surplus. He had a situation where more came in than was needed for operations, and some was used to pay DOWN the debt, but the debt was never eliminated. Shady accounting tricks don't equal reality.
Both sides DEMOCRAT and REPUBLICAN are bankrupting this country. We either get it under control now or we never ever will.
Fuck you all
Sure but how does that help the Republicans win the election? All it does is help Trump, and practically guarantees that their next candidate is fucked.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Schumer NEVER offered $25 billion for the wall. NOT EVER. The closest he ever came was when Chuck (in his own words) ""In exchange for strong DACA protections, I reluctantly put the border wall on the table for discussion," - NOTE: he did NOT offer anything other than DISCUSSION. this was the typical Democrat faux-border-secutiry deal just like the one they made with Reagan in 1986. No actual substance and no actual border security were proposed by Schumer.
Schumer has repeatedly said NO MONEY for the wall - EVER.
TRUMP OFFERED TO LEGALIZE MORE DACA KIDS THAN THE DEMOCRATS REQUESTED IN EXCHANGE FOR WALL FUNDING, and Pelosi and Schumer walked away. This offer risked angering Trump's own supporters as even the liberals at NBC admitted.
I suppose because the Impact was in Indonesia and the Indonesians were not paying for services to protect their own citizens lives. Live in an earthquake zone and it is up to 'YOUR' government to provide proper detection and warning services. Why the fuck would this be the US governments fault or Trumps fault. In fact Trump could turn around and say see "Indonesia getting a free ride on US taxpayer provided services". I wouldn't normally bother with this but 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' is just getting too ludicrous not to take the piss out of.
Like all the fake left Hollywood peaceniks complaining about Trump removing invading US forces from Syria, they are an actually invading army, not invited, no UN approval and no approval from the US congress or senate, the peaceniks screaming for more war because Trump did not want more want. If Trump wants it not matter what, the Trump Derangement Syndrome freaks oppose it (the fake left actually far right tools of the establishment). US main stream media has become a joke, a parody of itself.
How to make Mexico pay for the wall, create a fund and to put money in that fund, start charging the Mexican government for all illegal immigrants returned, from the point of arrest on, the cost to secure is a US government choice, cost there in after, the failure of the Mexican government responsibility to secure it's border and control it's citizens. So from the point of arrest on, cost of detaining the illegal immigrant, court costs, medical expenses and cost of return to Mexico, all totalled up and the bill sent to Mexico, when Mexico pays, that money used to pay for the Wall. So the wall will save the US government money and the Mexican government money.
The Mexican government should not get a free ride for failing to control it's borders, all illegal immigrants costs to the US taxpayer by Mexican citizens, should be paid for by the Mexican government, that is entirely reasonable and entirely doable. This should be a globally applied rule, all illegal immigrants costs should be billed back to the country of origin, they can always bill the individual when they get back and recover the money.
The citizens of every country in the world, have the right to choose who they will and will not let into their country, and the right to recover costs from kicking out illegal attempts to gain entry and exploit the hard work, services to the community and taxes of citizens, not just current generations but past generations who strove to create a better future for the next generation of citizens in their country. That is entirely fair and reasonable.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
My math skills say the Republicans currently have majorities in both the House and Senate. Or are you using some new math no one knows about.
There's a piece of Senate math you don't know about.
It takes 60%, not 50%+, to break a filibuster. (Down from 75%, down from "you can't break it until the other side ALL falls asleep at once".)
There are some issues where a filibuster is not allowed. Appropriation bills are explicitly NOT one of them.
The Republicans could exercise the "Nuclear Option" and change the rules. But they don't want to do that, because it would be used against them the next time THEY are in the minority.
Right now they've got 51 senators plus the Vice president's tie-breaker. So if they could get it to a vote it would pass. But they're nowhere near the 60 they'd need to bring it to a vote. They need 9 Democrats.
They picked up a couple in the midterms, but are still nowhere near 60. Meanwhile the Democrats picked up a bunch in the house and will have a majority there. So waiting for next year is a bad idea.
Trump promised, when signing last year's appropriation, to not do that again this year. He's sticking to that, at least so far. So 17% of the government gets a paid vacation until 6 senate Democrats vote for wall funding, the clock run out on this congress (which is being held in session by another of the presidential powers), or Trump flinches.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Yeah right...blame that on the government shutdown. Let's stop being "the world's police" for flipping everything and let other countries fend for themselves a while!
The wall wasn't effective because it stopped short. It stopped in Jiayuguan, about smack-dab in the original borders of the Mongol Empire. Kublai Kahn simply had to ride around the end of it... And in modern times, we see - as I linked above - walls work. Even for determined illegal aliens.
Er what? The Jiayuguan great wall was built AFTER the Mongol led Yuan dynasty ended. The Mongols didn't have to ride around it as they had already conquered China by then. What you say is either a complete and utter lie or you have no sense of history of the great wall.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
The pass was used by the Mongols, and that is why it didn't work.
You know we can research and debunk your lies.
Genghis Khan (1162 - 1227), the founder of the Mongol Empire, was the only one who breached the Great Wall of China in its 2,700-year-history. In his lifetime, Genghis Khan led his Mongolian army to break through the Great Wall not only once, but several times at Wusha Fortress, Juyongguan, Zijingguan, and Tongguan, etc. These successes were a big help in overthrowing of the Jin Dynasty (1115 - 1234 AD) and founding of the Yuan Dynasty (1271 - 1368 AD).
But you keep wanting to ignore the fact (even Politifact confirms) that a wall works in Israel. You know, modern times, not people on horses... Why do you deny the fact that a wall cuts illegal entry by 99%?
Again, a quick search says you're wrong.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Part of me would like to see the shutdown last exactly as long as it would take to balance the budget and pay off the national debt. What an interesting experiment THAT would be.... Of course, that can't happen (for pretty obvious reasons).
I really do wish we had a Constitutional Amendment that required a balanced budget or it just cuts all spending across the board, automatically, until it is balanced. Of course, that does nothing for the $21 *TRILLION* debt (which cost us $310 BILLION to service in 2018 alone, $2.6 TRILLION over the last 10 years), but at least it is a start. In the mean time, raise taxes, stop spending (my preference), or some combination of both!
I never said the existing wall was the only wall. That's a straw man argument. What was said was that it wasn't effective. Indeed the Mongols were not the only ones that invaded China from the north during that time. One factor in these conquests was the wall itself had been expensive to build and maintain and weaken the Han empire.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Israel has a wall across its entire border. It works. China had one across part of its border. It didn't work. Israel is modern times. China's wall was ancient times. Walls work.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
e.g. the right wing of the Democratic party opposes it. The actual left wing of the Democratic party is in favor of it so long as we use diplomacy to protect the Kurds from a Genocide.
If you want change you need the actual left. That's the Bernie Bros, the Justice Democrats and the folks running "Our Revolution".
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Yep. I'm sure that you're going to have a mom & her little kids shimmying 30 feet up a rope.
Again, this is not about deterring every last illegal economic migrant on the planet.
It's about upping the barrier of entry from "I'll just walk on over..." to "Shit! I have to climb that?"
And no you do NOT need "guards everywhere".
The wall prevents you from needing guards putting ye olde Mark 1 Eyeball on every last inch of the border.
So you have patrol zones, which border patrols pass multiple times a day.
And yes, you still need the wall. You need a physical deterrent.
Because a group of 10 or so border guards could, conceivably, be overwhelmed.
I don't know why the hell this is so hard for some people to grok.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Israel's wall was never the point. You brought that in when it was clear that you were utterly wrong about the Great Wall.
But to address your point about "modern" walls, how many times was the Berlin Wall breached? That was an extremely guarded section of wall that was only a few miles long. Yet people breached it. Now you think that somehow a 2,000 mile will be easier to protect? [sarcasm] If only no one ever invents vehicles that go above or under a wall. Also as long as people can't use water based vehicles to go around the wall then the wall will be extremely effective.[/sarcasm]
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
And I don't think you quite understand what's involved in actually trying to climb a 30 foot tall structure that's designed to be an impediment to passage.
You wanna disagree? Fine.
Likely it's neither as easy as you're saying, nor quite so hard as I'm saying.
Either way, the effect on immigration will be non-zero.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Go check. I started with the Israeli wall...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Go check [slashdot.org]. I started with the Israeli wall...
You know we can scroll up right?
Speaking of the unstoppable juggernaut of government, aren't you a bit worried about it trying to piss away billions of your dollars on something known not to work? I mean China built a wall far bigger and better than the one Trump wants, and that wasn't very effective...
The other poster started with the Great Wall. You brought in another wall without addressing the first point.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
A 2000 year old, incomplete wall doesn't quite apply to modern times, does it?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
But you were absolutely wrong on every point on it. But speaking of modern walls, how effective was the Berlin Wall? I've already linked where the wall in Israel has been less than effective. That's in addition to the tunnels they find all the time.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
The Berlin wall was amazingly effective. VERY few people actually escaped over it, compared to the number who it held back. Likewise, the Israeli wall works 99% of the time. That's quite effective. Or do you demand 100%, and since NOTHING can give that, we might as well just open everything up completely?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
You can tell I have my own reasons for keeping a list like that, one of which is that the USGS just can't be trusted to be up.
The data is international anyway. It's part of the international network for monitoring compliance with nuclear test ban treaties. So any one of those sites should be able to get you everything you need.
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