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Why the West Coast Is Suddenly Beating the East Coast on Transportation (nytimes.com)

The subways on the East Coast that allowed New York, Washington and Boston to thrive are showing their age and suffering from years of neglect, while cities on the West Coast are moving quickly to expand and improve their networks. From a report: The Los Angeles area, the ultimate car-centric region with its sprawling freeways, approved a sweeping $120 billion plan to build new train routes and upgrade its buses. Seattle has won accolades for its transit system, where 93 percent of riders report being happy with service -- a feat that seems unimaginable in New York, where subway riders regularly simmer with rage on stalled trains. "It's a tale of two systems," said Robert Puentes, the president of the Eno Center for Transportation, a nonpartisan research center in Washington. "These new ones are growing and haven't started to experience the pains of rehabilitation."

In New York, Polly Trottenberg, New York City's transportation commissioner, returned to a laundry list of messes: a subway crisis, buses that move at a snail's pace, the looming shutdown of the L train between Manhattan and Brooklyn, and the rebuilding of the dilapidated Brooklyn-Queens Expressway. "There is a political will to invest in expansion" on the West Coast, Ms. Trottenberg said in an interview, though she noted that New York's system was still the country's largest by far. Its daily subway and bus ridership of nearly 8 million dwarfs Los Angeles's 1.2 million riders. Still, transit systems on the East Coast are losing ridership. New York's subway has not expanded in decades, besides a handful of new stations in Manhattan -- one on the Far West Side and three on the Upper East Side.

273 comments

  1. We have to expand our networks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    Our stupid developers keep building wider cities.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    1. Re:We have to expand our networks by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Our stupid developers keep building wider cities.

      I think that is because of a lack of planned development; not because developers design them that way. Suburban sprawl is not planned by cities... it just happens when cities and counties don't regulate growth.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to mention that you live in San Jose, what is going on?

    3. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The wrath of an IT closet cleaner. This guy suffers from multiple brain disorders.

    4. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Also when cities annex previously independent areas for their tax monies.

    5. Re:We have to expand our networks by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I think that is because of a lack of planned development; not because developers design them that way.

      It's both. Developers want to maximize profit, so they are motivated to spread out looking for cheap lots.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:We have to expand our networks by Ichijo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, it's not a lack of planning, it's really bad planning, and far too much of it. Minimum parking requirements incentivize people to drive everywhere, filling the roads and streets with cars which require more, costly infrastructure which doesn't pay for itself by half.

      The parking lots themselves also pay hardly anything in taxes compared to the businesses and residences that could be put there, and because they are non-destinations, they contribute to longer travel distances between actual destinations A and B. This makes walking and transit infeasible (not that cars are feasible, see above).

      Building codes like height limits, minimum setbacks, and maximum floor area ratios also create sprawl and limit a city's productivity, jobs per acre and tax revenue per acre. So to make up the difference, cities expand out until they can't, and because they never budget for maintenance 30, 40, 50 years down the road, the more they build, the poorer they get!

      So it's a huge, misplanned mess, not an unplanned one.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    7. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 0, Troll

      "Suburban sprawl" happens when reasonable people have had enough with the petty tyrants and control freaks you find ultimately running the dilapidated, homeless infested, crime ridden, overtaxed cities.

      Not everyone wants to live in your stinky, crowed, noisy cities.

      I'll take my ten acres, 2,500 SqFt home, SUVs and 30 min commute anytime over a dinky, expensive apartment within walking distance of work.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    8. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck did I just read?

    9. Re:We have to expand our networks by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Same dealio as "guns are freedom", while police shootings are 10x as frequent as in other developed countries and privacy protections are a hot mess. The US concentrates too much on SYMBOLS of freedom (cars, guns) not ACTUAL freedom.

    10. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 0

      Thankfully, Austin, TX is almost completely boxed in now by surrounding cities.

      They've done like many cities and annexed around major arteries, taxing the shit out of them and shorting services. Essentially, the annexed properties are fucked.

      But TX recently passed a law that would require that neighborhoods on the annexation list have a vote. Most will likely tell Austin to go fuck themselves.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    11. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Annexation has no impact on urban sprawl.

    12. Re:We have to expand our networks by darkwing_bmf · · Score: 1

      NIMBYism also is a factor. If you can't build where the people live then you have to keep building further and further out.

    13. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are not in the suburban sprawl. The suburban sprawl is made up of McMansions built mere feet from each other, with petty tyrants and control freaks running home owners associations.

    14. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 0

      LOL!

      I have seen those. If that's the definition, then yes, fuck that shit.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    15. Re:We have to expand our networks by Drethon · · Score: 2

      Suburban sprawl happens because Americans have been conditioned to exercise their "freedom" to spend countless hours of their lives trapped in little wheeled boxes travelling at the breakneck speed of 5 MPH down long strips of asphalt.

      Or because I don't care much to live in the noisy city when a large country property is available a 20 minute drive from work. Also the freeway here might slow down to 55 a few times when congested. If I wanted an hour long commute, there is a job 50 miles away that I used to contract for. I wouldn't want to live somewhere that took an hour to drive just ten or twenty miles.

    16. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I ma sorry but I don't understand what developers have to do with this! I work in government IT in Palo Alto but I am not a developer.
      --
      Rocketman - Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan - William Shatner Trailer

    17. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans have been conditioned that having a yard is a good thing. We just need to condition them to believe VR in their 10x10 apartment is better.

    18. Re:We have to expand our networks by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 3, Informative

      You left out something:

      The suburban sprawl is made up of McMansions built mere feet from each other yet 5 miles away from the nearest store, with petty tyrants and control freaks running home owners associations.

      Whereas in Stockholm, my flat is within 5-15 minutes walk of several grocery stores, various shops, schools, daycare centres, restaurants, cafés, 2 clinics, at least 2 dentist's offices, a public library, a subway station, a bus station, ...and a big forest preserve containing two lakes.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    19. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seattle is the worst public transit system ever. Fuck seattle.

    20. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not conditioning, having a yard is objectively a good thing for anybody that wants to have children or a dog. A 10x10 apartment is objectively worse, even if that is in meters rather than feet.

      The problem is that we don't really have space for everybody to have these kinds of properties and increasingly it's just the wealthy that can. The same wealthy that turn around and screw over the workers wherever possible and generally make city living unbearable.

    21. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're not going to have decent transit, then you have to have minimum parking requirements. Just taking away people's parking spots doesn't help anything. Just look at Seattle, we have a terrible transit system here. I cannot for the life of my figure out why we're getting praise because our system is terrible. I live literally one bus away from work, but I drive anyways. It takes roughly 30-40 minutes by bus, but between 10-20 minutes to drive. And that's without considering the extra time I'm left sitting around waiting for a bus.

      And that's a best case scenario. My mother has to take multiple buses to get to her job even though just a few years ago, it was one bus and a relatively short walk. It's literally faster for me to take the bus from work, back home and then over to her house if I want to take the bus to visit her.

      And don't get me started on what happens if you want to go between two places that the transit agency didn't specifically intend to connect up.

      It's going to get a bit better in the future, but in the mean time, they're taking away both parking and lanes of traffic without considering how that's going to affect our already terrible traffic and congestion.

    22. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Engineer an condo/apartment building where you don't require a condo board or ridiculously punitive landlords (due to large amounts of noise insulation and smell proofing, along with enough parking) and you'd probably attract people back into the city.

      If I can't have a loud party or watch movies with a loud subwoofer in my own place, I am not going to buy it and I probably won't rent it.

    23. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most likely, because TX really, really wants to be a 3rd world nation, but has civilized parts like Austin and San Antonio threatening to bring them into the 20th century.

      Texas is a shit hole and yet you people try to pretend like it's some sort of beacon of hope.

    24. Re:We have to expand our networks by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      And consumers want to minimize cost for a big comfortable place with their own yard, which also drives consumers further out beyond the city...

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      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    25. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 0

      Texas has to deal with third world invaders every day.

      The majority of crime and poverty can be traced directly to the illegal aliens that are flooding the nation.

      They drive up crime, taxes, and degrade property values.

      BTW, enjoy paying your Fair Share of taxes due to your inability to deduct any of them over $10k.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    26. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm.... seems you missed adding the word 'corruption' in there somewhere.

      The east coast, despite the grandeur of it's growth through the ages, has a corruption problem.
      Simply put, this isn't something that will, or can be solved.

      Amazon putting HQ2 outside DC, only exacerbates the issue, which recent releases of internal company communications, confirm.

    27. Re:We have to expand our networks by slinches · · Score: 1

      Just because Illinois doesn't know how to budget for maintenance, it doesn't mean that the same is true everywhere.

      Yes, sprawl is due to planning, but it isn't inherently bad unless you consider those who have somewhat different priorities bad people. I happen to like living in a place where it's quiet, there's minimal traffic in my immediate neighborhood, I have some land for me and my family to use privately, easy access to open public space, and I can still get to a good job within ~30 minutes. If you want to live in a high-density walkable city, I can understand that and respect your choice. All I ask is that you do the same for me.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    28. Re:We have to expand our networks by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 2

      I have no problem with people spending their hard earned money on whatever housing they choose.

      But what you describe does not scale, so there is no positive point in encouraging it. Beyond a certain point, we have people taking 70 minutes on what used to be a 30 minute commute, and then taxes get raised on everyone to add another freeway lane. But the commute does not get shorter with more lanes, we only get yet more sprawl to clog the same freeways.

      In fact, the infrastructure to support sprawl is subsidized by general tax revenue. But individual little cities often do not care because they expect the state and federal gov't to help them out, and the lifestyle cost is spread around all the nearby cities, not just the one gaining the lion's share of the benefits of growth.

    29. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      people like you end up being the biggest complainers once they discover that their next-wall neighbor likes some other kind of loud music at a time when /you/ are intending to sleep

    30. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liberal cities (but I repeat myself) are growing in numbers with anti-vaxers. Soon an illegal immigrant from a shit-hole nation will bring in something nasty and fuck shit up!

    31. Re:We have to expand our networks by Ichijo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, I will respect your choice to live in a low density neighborhood when you are willing to pay full price for your lifestyle. TxDOT found that it would require a gas tax of $2.22 per gallon. Are you willing to pay that?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    32. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll respect your authoritarian bent to mandate everyone live in high-density neighborhoods when you start valuing the time I spend waiting for public transit properly.

      When the buses only run once every 30 minutes from 8am to 6pm on workdays and once or twice (if at all) on weekends or holidays and take 3x - 6x as long as a car to get to the same destination then I get to charge you about $3.00/mile since that's about what my hourly rate times the time difference is. Deal?

    33. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Guess what...

      It ain't your decision.

      And you can deep six that bullshit about spreading the costs. My little community pays for what we have. We built our own roads, our own schools, etc.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    34. Re:We have to expand our networks by Woeful+Countenance · · Score: 2

      ... having a yard is objectively a good thing ....

      Now that the word "literally" has become meaningless, "objectively" seems to have become the new target to be destroyed. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

      Objective: "having reality independent of the mind .... expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations"

    35. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing this Marxist useful idiot says is insightful, regardless of applied mod points by other dipshits who have waste for brains.

    36. Re:We have to expand our networks by slinches · · Score: 1

      Who says I don't pay full price? Where I live (not Texas), road maintenance is adequately funded from a variety of sources. I pay those taxes and fees like everyone else who lives here.

      You know who definitely doesn't pay full price for their transportation? A public transport rider. The rider fees almost never even pay the operations costs, let alone pay back the infrastructure development.

      So if you want to complain about subsidizing lifestyles, then don't look at me.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    37. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a problem. Up in Canada we have paid as much as $5.67 a gallon for gas. Right now it's $3.87 a gallon. Considering the US price for gas is as low as $1.85 (US), that's means the $2.22 per gallon markup required should be easy to swallow. I'd love to see roads maintained by people like me, the drivers.

      However, the deal is that all bicycle lanes must go unless cyclists want to pay THEIR fair share, too.

    38. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, I will respect your choice to live in a low density neighborhood when you are willing to pay full price for your lifestyle. TxDOT found that it would require a gas tax of $2.22 per gallon. Are you willing to pay that?

      Who isn't willing to pay 2.22 per gallon, we've paid more than 2x that in the past with no problem. I'd be willing to spend up to $13 a gallon to drive.

    39. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent rebuttal

    40. Re:We have to expand our networks by hipp5 · · Score: 1

      I think that is because of a lack of planned development; not because developers design them that way. Suburban sprawl is not planned by cities... it just happens when cities and counties don't regulate growth.

      Actually, it was planned... by the feds. The interstate system was specifically designed to enable communities to sprawl so that it would be harder to nuke the US into oblivion.

      Now, 60 years later, we just think this form of development is normal.

    41. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck getting that in America.

    42. Re:We have to expand our networks by Ichijo · · Score: 2

      road maintenance is adequately funded from a variety of sources.

      Isn't public transport also funded from a variety of sources? What makes the two different?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    43. Re:We have to expand our networks by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      You'll find that the high tax areas in general line up with the ones over paying the federal government.

      It doesn't seem to be fair that a state like NJ that ends up paying a larger proportion of its funding from local taxes is not able to get a little relief for its citizens as they help fund the low tax states.

      https://wallethub.com/edu/stat...

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    44. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool story but unless you live in a commune in the woods, your little community is serviced by a state or federal highway.

    45. Re:We have to expand our networks by slinches · · Score: 1

      Yes, true. It can be spun either way.

      Though, public transit in my city is used by a relatively small minority of the population and represents an outsized proportion of the budget. That means public transport riders generally pay back less of what they use than average.

      Just for reference, the population in the metro area around my city drive over 40 Billion miles each year compared to ~150 Million passenger miles on public transport (i.e. ~0.3% of miles traveled are on public transport). The budget for public transport relative to the total for roads maintenance is hard to pin down, but it's much closer to 50% than 0.3%

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    46. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you're apparently retarded. That's precisely the sense in which I meant objectively.

      Kids and dogs need fresh air and exercise both of which are much more available with a yard. It doesn't even require a lot of maintenance.

    47. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Username checks out, objectively.

    48. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 1

      It doesn't seem fair that someone in New Jersey, with the exact same income as me, ends up paying less federal income taxes because of writing off your higher taxes.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    49. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 1

      By the way...the STATE doesn't pay anything...individuals do.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    50. Re:We have to expand our networks by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Why? you benefit more from federal spending, and on balance you come out ahead even (in general, can't actually speak for your state vs NJ).

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    51. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does he benefit more from federal spending? Assuming he doesn't work directly for the federal government in any capacity. You benefit directly by paying less. "red state subsidy" is a red herring. Those red states try to end those "subsidies" yet that never happens because of democrats.

      Blue states need to fix their own states so people stop leaving them. They need to fix their housing problems and their tax problems instead of forcing the federal government to tax red states more then what those people want. "for their own good" is bullshit.

      Some people don't want the same government services as you and vote with their feet to avoid those taxes. Yet, you think it is your responsibility to force those taxes on people "for their own good" while at the same time hypocritically defend paying lower federal taxes because "I don't actually benefit as much as you do". Here's a thought, end those programs and then "red state subsidy" goes away but that will hurt the poor that you don't care about.

      People like you are why we can't have nice things. You force others to pay for shit you are not willing to pay yourself.

    52. Re:We have to expand our networks by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Add to the cost of the roads the opportunity cost of parking. In other words, if a parking lot brings in $10,000 per year in property taxes to the city, and if a store on the same parcel could bring in $400,000 per year in property and sales taxes, then the opportunity cost of the parking lot is $390,000 per year. The city loses that much by requiring that the parcel be used for parking. Guess who pays the difference in higher taxes? Everyone, including people who don't drive.

      So you see, the cost of infrastructure for cars is truly staggering when you add together ALL of the costs!

      If cars were no longer given favorable tax and regulatory treatment--if the gas tax and other user fees were risen enough to pay for the roads 100% instead of less than half, and if you were no longer guaranteed free, abundant parking at your destination--would you still drive everywhere?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    53. Re:We have to expand our networks by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      And yet, freedom is both symbolic and actual. Police shootings are a symptom, not a reason. Now I'm going to ask for sources: Where are the largest numbers of police shootings? What cities? (I'm sure that they aren't in rural areas much due to population density). What are the demographics of the crimes happening or supposedly happening? (I'm not disagreeing with you , just wondering where your data is coming from).

    54. Re:We have to expand our networks by slinches · · Score: 1

      That's not how opportunity cost works. The city doesn't lose anything from the parking lot unless there's nowhere else to build those stores. In places like the western US, land is not a significant constraint, so the opportunity cost is negligible. Hence why things are more spread out.

      I get it. You don't like cars and cities being designed to accommodate them. That's fine. There are plenty of dense urban cities that are available for you. Go live there and enjoy your lifestyle. Just quit trying to tell everyone who chooses something different that they are wrong for doing so.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    55. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bandit's dome expanded

    56. Re:We have to expand our networks by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      The city doesn't lose anything from the parking lot unless there's nowhere else to build those stores.

      Like in a neighboring city with less oppressive laws?

      You don't like cars and cities being designed to accommodate them.

      You think I don't like cars because I want all forms of transit to be treated equally in the eyes of the government?

      If I were supportive of gender equality, would you say that I'm prejudiced against men? If I wanted racial equality, would you say that I'm anti-white?

      Just quit trying to tell everyone who chooses something different that they are wrong for doing so.

      It's not wrong for people to want to drive everywhere. It's only wrong to force others, especially those who are too poor to drive, to pay more than their fair share for it!

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    57. Re:We have to expand our networks by Can'tNot · · Score: 2

      freedom is both symbolic and actual

      I don't follow this statement. The parent was talking about the difference between idealism and pragmatism - symbols of freedom vs. actual liberty. I.e.: people think that driving car is liberating, so having expansive roadways is symbolic of freedom, but in practice, day-to-day, you spend less time commuting if you use public transit. (In a city with good public transit, provided that transit is accessible to you, more caveats, etc.)

      It is not both symbolic and actual, the point is that those things are distinct. Maybe they're not always distinct, but those cases are not the problem.

    58. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean affordable.

    59. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suburban sprawl happens because Americans have been conditioned to exercise their "freedom" to spend countless hours of their lives trapped in little wheeled boxes travelling at the breakneck speed of 5 MPH down long strips of asphalt.

      Or because I don't care much to live in the noisy city when a large country property is available a 20 minute drive from work. Also the freeway here might slow down to 55 a few times when congested. If I wanted an hour long commute, there is a job 50 miles away that I used to contract for. I wouldn't want to live somewhere that took an hour to drive just ten or twenty miles.

      I grew up in the suburbs and went to college in the city. The more time I spent in the city the more I grew to hate it and commuted in on the train rather than live there and ultimately got my own home in the suburbs after graduation. If by "conditioned" you mean "already spoiled by not being forced to grow up in a crowded, noisy place smelling of piss" then I'm happy to be "conditioned".

    60. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Deserted parcels of arid land in the desert is, "Serviced" by state and local highways.

      You are an idiot.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    61. Re:We have to expand our networks by sycodon · · Score: 1

      See the AC's response. It's dead on.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    62. Re:We have to expand our networks by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      As I already said, I have no problem with people spending their hard earned money on whatever housing they choose.

      That you prefer rural areas to live in is a perfectly fine thing. For you. But it is a solution that does not scale. Your provably wrong answers to big problems are quite unimportant to the topic at hand.

    63. Re:We have to expand our networks by slinches · · Score: 1

      Like in a neighboring city with less oppressive laws?

      Like in vacant land within the city limits, or by the city expanding the limits to include additional unoccupied land. In much of the western US, there is plenty of land left to grow into.

      You think I don't like cars because I want all forms of transit to be treated equally in the eyes of the government?

      I think you don't like cars because you single them out to be "treated equally". Are you also in favor of increasing public transit fares similarly to fully cover the cost of development, operation and maintenance? If so, that's a different argument about how taxes should be structured in general, rather than anything to do with transportation.

      It's not wrong for people to want to drive everywhere. It's only wrong to force others, especially those who are too poor to drive, to pay more than their fair share for it!

      Who is forcing anyone to do anything? There's a different balance in different places depending on the natural constraints/advantages of the land and the desires of the populous. There is no one size fits all solution. Some cities should be dense due to natural features that provide the necessary ingredients for a highly centralized economic engine. Those cities should be built around higher density housing and public transport due to the space inefficiency of cars. Others should be more distributed because there's land available and there isn't a natural economic reason to centralize. This type of city should be built around local, low density neighborhoods interconnected with roads. Then there are places that have a mix of both, a dense urban core with surrounding suburbs and rural areas. These have their own unique challenges around trying to allow people to freely travel between the different areas.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    64. Re:We have to expand our networks by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Like in vacant land within the city limits

      LOL! That land is vacant because the city won't let anything but a small building and a large parking lot be located there!

      Nice try though.

      Are you also in favor of increasing public transit fares similarly to fully cover the cost of development, operation and maintenance?

      Sure, but it's not reasonable to expect that to happen as long as it has to compete with socialism for cars!

      Who is forcing anyone to do anything?

      I already explained that here.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    65. Re:We have to expand our networks by slinches · · Score: 1

      Have you ever been to the western US? Land is vacant here because no one has much use for it yet. There's plenty of unaffiliated space to build dozens more separate cities. Just a year or so ago Bill Gates bought a 40 mi^2 chunk of land to build his own "smart city" out this way.

      Seriously, just look at this:
      https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/images/712129main_8247975848_88635d38a1_o.jpg
      Those dark areas are open land. Some of it is public land that we want to preserve, but much of it is just not yet developed.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    66. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not true that people need a yard for their kids or pets. That's what public parks are for.

      A properly designed city has public answers for these kinds of problems, and they usually involve sharing and are cheaper. Most things like transpo, yards, etc you don't use 24 hrs a day anyway. I mean, how many hours a day does your car sit parked?

      The problem with all of these are the people who leave things in a bad state after use. Public toilets are the perfect example. It needs to be part of the culture for people to leave things in a better state than they found them. Compare public toilets in China vs. Germany. The US, even with this culture, always has that one asshole who pisses on the seat. I saw him once when I was a teenager. I always thought kids did that, but I saw what looked to be a 40 something white male just pissing all over it without a second thought. If I had been older I so would have beat the stew out of that guy...

    67. Re:We have to expand our networks by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      There's plenty of unaffiliated space to build dozens more separate cities.

      Irrelevant. We're talking about the money a city loses with oppressive laws dictating land use. Putting a tax-efficient property in City B doesn't help City A.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    68. Re:We have to expand our networks by slinches · · Score: 1

      It is relevant because cities aren't necessarily a fixed size and can have undeveloped land within the existing borders. You don't seem to get that point. You're also forgetting that adding "tax efficient" property zoning without the population or natural resources to support that use is still going to fail or go undeveloped. Cities don't lose the money they never could have had.

      I'm not saying every city is 100% efficiently utilizing every resource available. What I'm saying is that the optimal city design isn't always high-density.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    69. Re:We have to expand our networks by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      You're also forgetting that adding "tax efficient" property zoning without the population or natural resources to support that use is still going to fail or go undeveloped.

      That doesn't make sense. If you zone for 10 stories and the population or natural resources doesn't support a 10 story building, why can't a developer put a 1 story building there?

      What I'm saying is that the optimal city design isn't always high-density.

      Who said it was?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    70. Re:We have to expand our networks by slinches · · Score: 1

      If you zone for 10 stories and the population or natural resources doesn't support a 10 story building, why can't a developer put a 1 story building there?

      They could unless there was a minimum size requirement.

      Although completely permissive zoning isn't necessarily best either. If an area is zoned for 1 to 10 story buildings, the infrastructure (water, sewer, trash, power) must be planned to support 10 story size building developments. If you plan for that density in one area, then that means other areas must be limited or cannot be served at all if your city is primarily constrained by a resource other than land (e.g. water supply). Either that or you end up in a situation like LA, where growth outstrips the ability to provide necessary services.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    71. Re: We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This reply is backwards. He directly benefits with more jobs, better roads, etc due to the federal govt subsidizing his state. The point is to try to give all citizens equal opportunities via a level playing field. For an example of what happens when you don't do this, look at Germany and Greece. Both are in the EU under the same system but the Greeks who can move to Germany while the Greek economy falls apart. Major brain drain. The Greeks are starting with less - fewer people, worse infrastructure, poor governance, etc. One could even blame a lack of natural resources, not much fresh water, coal, etc. The EU has been spending some on infrastructure in Greece, but it isn't enough to close the gap and threatens the union. Thus, If you want the cultures between the blue and red states to diverge to the point of a disunited states of america, then by all means stop giving federal money to the poor red states.

    72. Re:We have to expand our networks by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      Sorry, what I was trying to say is that 'symbols of freedom are important and actual freedom is important."

    73. Re:We have to expand our networks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      And independent of the mind, having a yard is good for kids and dogs. I think you don't know what subjective means.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    74. Re: We have to expand our networks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      "That's what public parks are for." Only if you like dog and human shit in your public park.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    75. Re:We have to expand our networks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Reasonable departments of transportation have gone to GPS tax per mile schemes.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    76. Re:We have to expand our networks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Why have anybody live in a city? Why can't it just be a manufacturing center with high speed rail access to the country?

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    77. Re:We have to expand our networks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      At the current population density on a planet wide scale, and taking land lost to climate change into account, we have 20 square kilometers per human being to play with.

      Some of that is much harder to live on than the rest, but you could still provide *every single human being on the planet* 2 acres of farmland and have enough left over for 1400 sq foot houses.

      So it seems like it scales just fine to me.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    78. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why have anybody live in a city?

      It's mostly a religion thing. The more people you have living in an area, the easier it is to justify building big churches, which attract more people to live there, justifying even bigger churches, and you get a positive feedback loop.

      Heaven forbid religion designates certain places as sacred. That's another way religion encourages people concentrating together.

      The religious of the past didn't understand how important it is to keep people together. They divided and weakened themselves, while the secularists, atheists, and godless liberal lefty commies took over the cities, becoming stronger.

      Why can't it just be a manufacturing center with high speed rail access to the country?

      Because manufacturing and other businesses don't necessarily find cities attractive places to be in. Unlike religion, manufacturing and businesses have no sacred cows that says they must all be located in close proximity. Businesses will organization whatever which way the market and bottom line tells them. Maybe it would be cities. Maybe it would be something else.

    79. Re:We have to expand our networks by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      At the planet-wide scale have plenty of food, even if politics keeps the calories from getting to everyone who is hungry.

      But at a practical human level, people seem to want to have jobs that do not involve tilling to soil, and those jobs seem to be in or near urban areas. I suppose we can march people off into the rural areas with guns pointed at their backs, but that is not a route I am interested in.

      I want to see what can do to provide reasonable housing options near the jobs, housing that is economically and environmentally affordable. Cities and density and mass transit seem much more auspicious towards those ends than other choices.

      And I emphasize that I am not trying to prevent people from spending their money on housing as they please. But we do not have to continue to encourage and subsidize sprawl by gov't policy -- no point in throwing more good money down that hole.

    80. Re:We have to expand our networks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      And yet rural parishes often have larger church campuses due to having the land available to build on.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    81. Re:We have to expand our networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet rural parishes often have larger church campuses due to having the land available to build on.

      I said church as in the building, not the campus which would include any and all empty land around it.

      Having land to build on but no reason (high population and population density) to build more stuff on it is meaningless.

      In fact, having that big campus but no buildings gives the anti-religious ammunition: "they're wasting space! they hog all the land but don't develop it!"

      But if the local church does develop and build a huge fancy building, they'll get attack from another angle: "that building is way bigger than is needed to house all the locals! They're wasting money!"

      While locally this won't harm the church much, but in the aggregate this harms religion. Ever notice how when some local church you don't know/care about does something bad, the other churches be all like "they got nothing to do with us" "that's not REAL Christianity" "those aren't TRUE Christians"? That's religion dividing and conquering itself.

      Put it another way, spreading out lets the church win local battles, but they lose the war. The appearance is that religion does stupid shit all over the place, stupid shit that even its own followers don't defend, So when the time comes to make important decisions, people are less likely to listen to the church and vote the other way.

    82. Re:We have to expand our networks by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      The original idea of a parish, back when only the very rich owned horses, was so that everybody could walk to church.

      The original idea of a diocese is an area so that a walking Bishop is available within a week (and there used to be penalties to prevent "absentee bishops").

      Unfortunately, most of those laws governing bishops disappeared about 500 years ago.....

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  2. Re:taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes because Los Angeles and California are well-known bastions of conservatives... NOT.

  3. Spending money does not equal sucess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yea, there is a lot of money being spent, but is it working and will people ride? Those are two very different questions.

  4. The big question by mark_reh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Back in the 50s, when the interstate highway system was planned and construction began, did anyone budget for future maintenance? Does anyone consider the long term cost of maintenance when they build roads, bridges, and other infrastructure like subways?

    Those folks in Seattle are happy because the system is new and working fine. I'll bet people in NYC were happy with their system when it was new. Let's see how people in Seattle feel about the system when it is as old as the NYC subway system.

    1. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the first time I've ever heard of people being happy with sound transit.

    2. Re:The big question by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 2, Informative

      >> Back in the 50s, when the interstate highway system...did anyone budget for future maintenance?

      Yes, often.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll_roads_in_the_United_States

    3. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Back in the 50s, when the interstate highway system was planned and construction began, did anyone budget for future maintenance?

      Yes, it's called the federal gas tax. What they didn't do is tie it to inflation. They just expected future congress people to raise the tax, which happened regularly from the 1930s until the 1993.

      Enter the "low low taxes" era of Republicans who cry bloody murder if you try to raise the gas tax, and you get a federal gas tax that hasn't been raised since 1993!
      (Which is just about the start of the rise of the "don't raise my taxes!" Republican myopathy.

    4. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that is why Cdreimer left /. after 20 years and posted 100+ videos in 2018. His trolls are still butthurt that he left them alone with APK.

      The thing to do for him: post more videos :)

    5. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      610 West Loop in Houston is FUCKED! It had the option of being expanded 4x it's original size now when being rebuilt. But Plan B was voted on to keep costs down with only maintenance being performed. Talk about being short-sighted. This is why Houston, TX will forever be choked in growth. If Houston is the overall 'heart', than 610W is the 'aorta' of it.

    6. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seize the means of production, comrade! Boogie-man Republicans are exploiting the proletariat.
      Funny how you fail to mention that in 1993, through 1995, all three branches of government were Democrat controlled.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    7. Re:The big question by pgmrdlm · · Score: 1

      I lean toward basing the gas tax on miles driven and weight of vehicle.

      --
      Anonymous comments are as pathetic as the anonymous "sources" that contaminate gutless journalism from the New York Time
    8. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They did. Then Reagan came and cut funding by "deregulating". We ended up with crony capitalism and everyone complaining about taxes, because all that money went to "defense" instead of infrastructure.

    9. Re:The big question by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Back in the 50s, when the interstate highway system was planned and construction began, did anyone budget for future maintenance? Does anyone consider the long term cost of maintenance when they build roads, bridges, and other infrastructure like subways?

      Those folks in Seattle are happy because the system is new and working fine. I'll bet people in NYC were happy with their system when it was new. Let's see how people in Seattle feel about the system when it is as old as the NYC subway system.

      I bet they did originally, then people wanted tax breaks and pension funding and all the planned money went elsewhere. Kind of like most of my work projects.

    10. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're really saying is that the last time the gas tax was increased was 2 years before the Republicans took control of the Congress.

    11. Re:The big question by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      I believe the aphorism you're looking for is, "Penny-wise and pound-foolish."

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    12. Re:The big question by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Back in the 50s, when the interstate highway system was planned and construction began, did anyone budget for future maintenance?

      Yes, it is part of the Federal tax on fuel ($0.184 gallon). Cars and trucks actually pay more in than they use, with transit (in particular, rail) being heavily subsidized in cost. In Seattle, fares cover about 40% of the cost of the Link light rail, and only 20% of commuter buses. Seems that roads were properly budgeted for, but transit was not.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    13. Re:The big question by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Federal gas taxes were net incomes for roads; transit was big drains. And President Clinton and Obama were both Democrats; of course President Kennedy was a huge tax cutter, cutting more as a percent of the budget than Reagan.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    14. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously. And I've never heard anyone say "I'd rather have this mess of buses than a full city metro system."

    15. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy FUCK, you would match the taxation to the actual wear an individual vehicle inflicts on the road?!?! You're one of those crazy libertarians, aren't you?

    16. Re:The big question by guruevi · · Score: 1

      So increasing the taxes on the low-and-middle classes (the truck drivers) not on the companies employing them?

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    17. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If, as a driver, you feel that transit doesn't help you (assuming to drive in cities) imagine the extra cars that would have to be on the road slowing you down if those people didn't take the .

    18. Re:The big question by Woeful+Countenance · · Score: 1

      Back in the 50s, when the interstate highway system was planned and construction began, did anyone budget for future maintenance?

      In a word, no. The interstate highway system was built for interstate travel, because someone told President-former-General Eisenhower that it would take five days to get a tank across the US in case of invasion. The planners never expected interstates to be used for local commuting. What is now the Kennedy expressway in Chicago was originally designed with the expectation that it would carry 15,000 cars per day by 1980; in fact, it had 45,000 by 1970.

      Obviously, the solution was to add more roads and more lanes. Later, it was discovered that if you make commuting faster, people move farther away, leading to a kind of positive feedback loop.

      Another problem is that politicians are elected in an evolutionary process which leads them to make contradictory promises: promising more services (more roads, better roads, better schools, more police, better health and retirement plans for government employees, etc.) while also promising to lower taxes. Since politicians are elected by voters, and voters are people, and people are astoundingly stupid, this works great, until it doesn't. This was clearly elucidated in an episode of The Simpsons in which Homer was elected garbage commissioner.

    19. Re:The big question by pgmrdlm · · Score: 1

      Truck drivers are already taxed that way. The poor are most likely not putting as many miles on the road.

      NEXT argument from the clueless

      --
      Anonymous comments are as pathetic as the anonymous "sources" that contaminate gutless journalism from the New York Time
    20. Re:The big question by pgmrdlm · · Score: 1



      Lol, naaa. Not a libertarian. I do agree with various goverment programs that they do not.

      I just think what I propose is the fairest way for the tax to operate. The moron that replied below thinks that the poor and truck drivers would bear the brunt of that tax.
      1). Truck drivers would most likely would not be affected. Here is a link to how they pay those taxes now.
      https://cdllife.com/2014/taxes...
      2). The poor paying more due to this. The more money a person has, the more cars they will own. The more vehicle miles driven, meaning the more money paid into the fuel tax. But this idiot didn't take the time to even try to research that out. And because I think he is a moron, I will not direct him to GOVERNMENT sources that actually walk through this.

      --
      Anonymous comments are as pathetic as the anonymous "sources" that contaminate gutless journalism from the New York Time
    21. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cars and trucks pay more in than they use is not surprising because road construction and maintenance for cars and trucks are more than twice as expensive per passenger than busses, passenger rail, and bike paths combined.

    22. Re:The big question by TJ_Phazerhacki · · Score: 1
      Wait, are you excusing the NY Subway because it's older? Because I know that at work, we spend a ton more to maintain the old system that services 8,000 users than the new system that services 1,000. When Seattle has a century-old system on which they've ignored basic maintenance for multiple decades despite the userbase increasing 100-fold, then I'd imagine people would get a bit irritated. Yet, around the globe, systems that are virtually the same age as NY's result in happy riders who cannot say enough good things about them.

      NY is reaping the cost of deferred maintenance, and doing so in about the most visible manner one could design.

      --
      Physics is nothing like religion. If it was, we'd have an easier time trying to raise money!
    23. Re:The big question by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      Not excusing it because it's older, just pointing out that over time everything falls apart, and if it isn't well maintained and upgraded, as is the way with many public works projects (highways, roads, bridges, etc.). The people in NYC should be as happy with their system as the people in Seattle. But I think it's more likely that over time the people in Seattle will come to dislike their system as much as New Yorkers dislike their system than the opposite.

    24. Re:The big question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same points about maintenance costs apply to both freeways and rail transport. Are NYC people really much happier with driving in the traffic there as they are with the subways?

      Look at LA's freeway network, that thing is absolutely ridiculous, with overpasses over overpasses over overpasses. Roads are pretty cheap if they're built on the GROUND, but building a freeway 200 feet in the sky over a suburb is prohibitively expensive. A rail link is much more efficient way of increasing transport capacity in terms of space and money than building more suspended freeways, and those big on/off ramps and interconnects that LA has.

      The money will be there, because merely NOT building more of those "sky-roads" will pay for a ton of rail tracks.

  5. here we go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In for all the "I have a car so public transportation does nothing for me" comments.

    1. Re:here we go by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In for all the "I have a car so public transportation does nothing for me" comments.

      I live in a mid-sized city with very little public transportation (might as well be none)... so it really does do nothing for me. :)

      That said, public transportation helps everyone even car drivers in cities that have functioning public transportation by:
      a) Driving up desirability of location- thus helping your property value
      b) Removing congestion from the streets.
      c) slowing the deterioration of roadways meaning less frequent need to repave and delay your trip in.

      Public Transportation may cost more to run than governments recoup but it's a net win if you figure in all the fringe benefits.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:here we go by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 3, Informative

      a) Driving up desirability of location- thus helping your property value

      One day soon, I'll be laughing at these numbskulls all the way to the bank--literally. Seems the value of my flat in Stockholm has more than doubled in less than ten years, largely due to its proximity to the subway and bus lines...

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    3. Re:here we go by magarity · · Score: 1

      In for all the "I have a car so public transportation does nothing for me" comments.

      Every time I've visited Los Angeles I've seen the light rail trains going down the tracks in the highway median. Zero passengers. So, yes, probably all the readers in that area are going to say they have a car and don't use public transportation.

    4. Re:here we go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That will reverse when urban decay begins to set in.

    5. Re:here we go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't live in LA but I would be willing to bet you that you saw the trains at off-peak travel times.

      I live in Minneapolis, which has excellent public transportation and a well-used train system. However, most of the day, the trains are running nearly empty unless there is an event or it is morning or evening rush hour.

    6. Re:here we go by godrik · · Score: 1

      Well, European cities have grown with public transportation in mind. I have never been to Stockholm, but I assume it is similar to other European cities I have visited. A large backbone of high density, high speed public transit (typically subway and trains), and many more flexible option to cover last mile (typically buses).
      That was made possible by the relative density of European cities at the end of the 19th century. North American cities were typically built assuming people would own car and so the backbone was never really built.

    7. Re:here we go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That said, public transportation helps everyone even car drivers in cities that have functioning public transportation by:
      b) Removing congestion from the streets.

      I'm not sure about this; most of the people I see on public trans don't appear to have the means to own the car they'd want/like and the necessary related costs (insurance, upkeep, gas, etc.).

      Meaning it didn't remove congestion, it actually added to it. Especially here where, without dedicated bus lanes/stop spaces, buses actually stop in traffic lanes to let passengers on and off.

    8. Re:here we go by godrik · · Score: 1

      I bought a house in Charlotte, NC about a year and a half ago. Public transit in this city is terribly under scaled. There are essentially two lightrail lines both going to uptown, one recent from the university, and one older from the rich neighborhood in the south.
      I work for the university, so naturally, I tried to find a location where I could leverage the rail (which had not opened yet at the time). And what found is that the last mile is a real issue in Charlotte. If you are not on the rail path, getting to the rail is difficult. People in the south of the city park and ride to go uptown. And the university has readjusted its local buses to account for the rail. But for all other locations you are essentially on your own to get to the rail.
      So really the rail is useful for the financial worker leaving in the south who park and ride. And for the students to do their evening/night week-end internships uptown.

      I searched for a place on the rail to stop driving my car. And I could not find one at the time that was close enough to a station that I could take the rail, and affordable (even when factoring I could mostly stop driving my car).
      I did not even drive before I moved to the US, so I really tried to be able to use the public transit, I could not find a practical option for me.

    9. Re:here we go by magarity · · Score: 1

      Be it in LA or Minneapolis, empty trains running means your tax dollars hard at work paying the driver and other operations staff as well as wear and tear maintenance.

    10. Re:here we go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Minneapolis, which has excellent public transportation and a well-used train system as long as you happen to live along the main highway or train corridors and work downtown.

      There, FTFY. Unless you live within about 1-2 miles of a Park & Ride or a train stop *and* you happen to work downtown - either of them - public transportation in the Twin Cities area is a complete waste of time. The only time it was ever useful for me in my 25+ years of living here was when I drove to the Hopkins Crossroad P&R on I-394 and caught the express bus into and out of downtown, and even then it was economically a wash.

      I will grant you that the light rail is very nice for getting back and forth from the airport to downtown. The rail from the northwest into downtown is also nice; it's just unfortunate that in order to get from the northwest to the airport you have to walk from train stop to train stop through what is essentially the worst part of downtown.

  6. Here's why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is why the west coast is beating the east coast: It is because the west coast is 50 years behind.

    Let me explain.

    The east coast transportation systems have been around for decades longer than those on the west coast. This means that they are older and require more maintenance.

    But, that's not why they are not doing as well as transportation systems on the west coast.

    For the real reason, let me use the MTA (New York City) as an example. Out of every dollar of gross revenue brought in by the MTA, 116% of it is required to pay current and future retirement benefits to MTA workers. The current benefits are quite a bit lower, which is why they are still cash flow positive, but even only considering current benefits, there is not enough money left over to maintain the system. Baking in the unfunded future benefits creates a debt load that current gross revenue cannot cover, let alone cover it and pay for maintenance and other operating costs.

    Mayor dipshit has no plan for this except to raise taxes on the middle class AGAIN... and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

    1. Re:Here's why by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      MTA isn't controlled by the NYC mayor, unfortunately. It's a huge bureaucracy run by mouthbreathing hayseeds in Albany. Subways would run better if the actual subway system (vs Metro North and LIRR) were severed from state control and run by NYC directly.

  7. Relative utility. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Informative

    You can get around NYC on foot, by bus, or by subway. LA is so sprawled that even 100 more miles of subway won't actually cover much ground. The subway hasn't expanded much, but the area's transit coverage has actually increased since the late 80s. NJ Transit built the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, Montclair connection (enabling weekend service on the Montclair line), and Midtown connection (connecting Hoboken trains to Penn Station). Airtrains to JFK and EWR were built in the past 25 years. PATH is being expanded to EWR.

    1. Re:Relative utility. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      You can get around NYC on foot, by bus, or by subway. LA is so sprawled that even 100 more miles of subway won't actually cover much ground.

      This - exactly. To put numbers on it, the greater New York City area is 302 square miles. And it's basically flat (about 400 feet of elevation change).

      The Los Angeles Metro area is around 4,850 square miles (about 16 times the area) and is quite hilly (Santa Monica mountains reach over 3000 feet) with lots of steep grades (I don't think you can find a grade over 3% in NYC). NYC is geologically stable; the LA Metro area has 27 major fault lines through it.

      Much bigger, much more elevation changes, much more dynamic geology - no one should wonder why a NYC-style solution doesn't work for LA.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    2. Re:Relative utility. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Everything you say is correct except the 3% grade -- Duffy's Hill is 12.6% grade, if only for a few hundred feet.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Fort George Hill is also 12-13%...

      None of these hills are like the mountains in LA, but still not 3%.

    3. Re:Relative utility. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Wow - had no clue that NYC had anything close to a steep incline! Of course, being 1 block long - it's more of a big speed-bump than a hill. But folks out East keep talking about "mountains" that are a few thousand feet high; until it's at least a mile up - it's no mountain!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  8. New versus old by sjbe · · Score: 2

    The Los Angeles area, the ultimate car-centric region with its sprawling freeways, approved a sweeping $120 billion plan to build new train routes and upgrade its buses.

    Ok so they approved a plan. Wake me when they actually have a well functioning mass transit system that actually causes a reduction in the number of cars needed. I'll be especially impressed if they actually do it on time and under budget.

    Seattle has won accolades for its transit system, where 93 percent of riders report being happy with service -- a feat that seems unimaginable in New York, where subway riders regularly simmer with rage on stalled trains.

    Seattle's system is still new. Really new. Sound Transit was commissioned in 1996. Link Light Rail began service in 2009. Etc. I'm sure their system works great compared with mass transit systems many decades older. Maintenance is a harsh mistress. Most transport networks work fairly well when new.

    1. Re:New versus old by crunchygranola · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ok so they approved a plan. Wake me when they actually have a well functioning mass transit system that actually causes a reduction in the number of cars needed. I'll be especially impressed if they actually do it on time and under budget.

      Naah. You'll be happier in your slumber.

      The LA metro system is well functioning (I use it to commute to work, and I use it any time I go downtown - I would never drive there any more).

      And by definition when people from the suburbs take the metro they aren't driving. So, yeah, it does cause a reduction in the number of cars on the freeways and surface streets.

      I know, I know. You'll be now be setting new, higher bars you demand to be cleared for your satisfaction.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    2. Re:New versus old by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      LA Metro works well if you are close to a station and can get to where you need to go with at most one transfer. Metro has 93 operational stations, or roughly one per 50 square miles of LA County. The system would need to increase by an order of magnitude in track miles and stations to be on par with NYC.

    3. Re:New versus old by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      And by definition when people from the suburbs take the metro they aren't driving. So, yeah, it does cause a reduction in the number of cars on the freeways and surface streets.

      Has anyone actually measured a long-term reduction in traffic? The freeways are still packed, so it seems that whenever somebody gets out of their car and gets on [transit], it's bringing up a little bit more room on the roads, and there's somebody out there waiting to use it.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    4. Re:New versus old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seattle's transit system is also terrible. It might be that 93% of the "riders" are happy with it, but that's a self-selecting demographic. Most of us are not riders because the system is unworkable. Even with our traffic problems, my commute is manageable 25-30 minutes by car. By bus, it would be 2-3 hours each way because my choices are to either go through gridlock-choked downtown, or out to the airport and then back toward my work. Either way involves a mile-long walk and multiple buses. If you happen to live and work downtown, it's OK although it was better in the past when the downtown core was a free-ride zone (and affordable to live in). The Link just goes between downtown and the airport so it's mainly a tourist shuttle. Over the years, buses have become more expensive and many routes have been cut to a point where it's just not practical at all. It's cheaper to buy a shitty car than spend (minimum) $5.50 a day for a year anyway.

    5. Re:New versus old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yea metro is great if you dont wanna get your shit stolen like on the blue line.

  9. Cost structures, anyone? by ErikTheRed · · Score: 1

    I see a million of these articles, none of which even mention the obscene amount of unnecessary overhead in many of these systems. The politicians bullshit about there not being enough taxes or fees, but they (and their media lapdogs) ignore the egregious amount of waste involved. A starter....

    https://ny.curbed.com/2017/12/...

    --

    Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
    1. Re:Cost structures, anyone? by magarity · · Score: 1

      The politicians bullshit about there not being enough taxes or fees, but they (and their media lapdogs) ignore the egregious amount of waste involved.

      You seriously didn't already know that New York unions drive the costs of any public works into the stratosphere?

  10. Re:taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because it has been for the last 50 years.

  11. Transport network design is the problem by sjbe · · Score: 2

    In for all the "I have a car so public transportation does nothing for me" comments.

    You have it backwards. It's not that I have a car - it's that public transportation was NOT DESIGNED for me. It's that most cities (including mine) were simply not designed with mass transit in mind and most of them lack the population density to retrofit it now. I live in a suburban area about 20 miles from where I work. There is no economically realistic way to get mass transit from where I live to where I work or to pretty much anywhere else I need to go. The infrastructure was designed for cars and only cars. It was bad planning but we are kind of stuck with it now, at least for the next 50 years. Any plan that would fix this state of affairs is going to cost huge sums and take many decades to implement.

    1. Re:Transport network design is the problem by geoscodin · · Score: 1

      I rode the bus when I lived in Hawaii and it was cheap and convenient. When I moved to Pennsylvania it was less cheap and less convenient, but still did the job fairly well. Now in South Carolina, I don't know how much it costs because it doesn't service my area. Well, almost. I live just off the interstate that runs right downtown. There is even a bus stop right in front of my building. But to use the bus from my home I have to drive 6 miles away from work to board the bus or half way to work to pick up the same line. Even though it goes right through my part of town it doesn't stop. Plus there is no parking there so I'd have to find a place to park and then walk to the bus stop. Now maybe it's my own fault for not fully realizing that the bus doesn't stop in my part of town, but it's that inconvenience that causes me to just jump on the interstate and park in my building's parking lot, even though I hate the traffic.

  12. Unpopular opinion: no more linear parks... by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In NYC there is an attitude of taking routes that would be good for transit and building parks on them. The high line could have been an surface level extension of the 7 line from its current Hudson Yards terminal to the 14st area of Manhattan (and duck into a tunnel from there). Or, allowed LIRR to run to a Lower Manhattan terminal without much tunneling (relieving pressure in overcrowded Penn Station by providing more places in Manhattan to get off).

    There's a similar argument going on in Queens about what to do with the former LIRR Rockaway Beach branch: one side wants a linear park (despite the fact that it runs through Forest Park, which is already pretty big, and through people's back yards who don't want random people walking by all day), another wants to restore it as an an extension of the subway (connecting the Queens Blvd Line to the A train). The route runs through a transit desert in Queens, and in any of the west coast or midwestern cities with budding new rail systems the population centers being connected would be an automatic no-brainer to put transit there.

    1. Re:Unpopular opinion: no more linear parks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should explain what a "linear park" is.

      I've never heard this term before, ever.

    2. Re:Unpopular opinion: no more linear parks... by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      Let me Wikipedia that for you: Linear Park.

    3. Re:Unpopular opinion: no more linear parks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like uh, a park, but like very long and very thin, so sort of uh linear, huh?

      Typically a former rail corridor, converted for pedestrian/cycle use and planted with trees etc.

    4. Re:Unpopular opinion: no more linear parks... by PPH · · Score: 1

      It's the conversion of unused rail rights-of-way to cycling and walking paths. Promoted by legislation giving "rails-to-trails" organization first dibs on available surplus rail property. It is heavily promoted by automotive lobbying groups to stall the growth of new mass transit on these sites.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:Unpopular opinion: no more linear parks... by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      It is heavily promoted by automotive lobbying groups to stall the growth of new mass transit on these sites.

      In all my years of studying transit vs rail trails, I never even considered that one vector of support for the trails was the automotive industry. I thought it was mainly short-sighted local politicians combined with good ol'fashioned NIMBYism, and maybe cyclists (and in my area, snowmobile-ers), but thinking about it none of those groups have any real amounts of lobbying money.

      That is also somewhat supported by what happened with Metro-North's Harlem Line extension - they got funding to re-extend north from Dover Plains, so the railroad went as far north as they could, until they were blocked by an incomplete rail trail which "conveniently" started at the very end of the section of the line that still had rails and only covers random sections totalling 15 miles of the 46 mile discontinued section to Chatham. The trail folk made sure to start and complete the end most likely to get restored to rail use first.

  13. Infrastructure cannot crumble until it's there by mschaffer · · Score: 1

    Until the west coast has their infrastructure installed it cannot crumble to ruins. That's the first fundamental step.

  14. It's easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The left coast is all about socialism. Instead of businesses footing the bill to create these public transportation systems and then make money off of them or not, the left coast forces everyone to pay for the transportation systems whether they use them or not and couldn't care less if they fail to make any profit or not.

    I'm sure all those billionaires that live there have no problem paying for the system even though they will never personally use them.

    1. Re:It's easy by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So exactly like every other form of infrastructure that not everyone uses equally. Deal with it -- it's part of the cost of a modern civilization.

    2. Re:It's easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forget, this is libertarian land, where people with pithy arguments about the inefficiencies of government are entirely exempt from the social contract.

    3. Re:It's easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Said the Californian that loves socialism. You fail to see the use of and or crumbling infrastructure. Public transportation maintenance on the left coast in part is subsidized by the government, which everyone there still supports and pays for... Deal with it.... I sure hope you love paying the highest taxes of any state in the Union... Deal with it.

      All other infrastructure is maintained by a use tax like on gas or diesel. Sill deal with it. I use the roads I pay the use tax in gas. I use public transportation, I pay the real cost of the use of said transportation. Socialism makes everyone pay the use tax instead of the individual paying the real cost... deal with it.

  15. And why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a car (BMW).

    Why exactly would I ride a bus or a train? Please explain...

    1. Re:And why should I care? by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      To avoid a 3 hour traffic jams? I had to drive 7 miles in LA, took 45 minutes. This was during the middle of the day, not rush hour. A subway would have taken a few minutes to travel that distance.

    2. Re:And why should I care? by crow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So that you can do something else with that time.

      So that you can reduce your impact on global climate change.

      So that you don't have to pay for parking, gas, tolls, and maintenance on your car.

      So that you're not stuck in traffic jams.

      Or you could care because it keeps a lot of other drivers off the road making your commute less painful.

      Of course, if you had a Tesla instead of a BMW, many of those reasons wouldn't apply or would be significantly reduced.

    3. Re:And why should I care? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Which is why I ride a motorcycle in the LA area. No traffic (we can lane split like the rest of the world), free parking (all public garages - including the airports - allow for free parking for motorcycles in the slashed sections of parking garages), and cheap.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    4. Re: And why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...to reduce your chances of a roadside car fire

    5. Re:And why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No wonder, I knew you were a dumb faggot but now I see you have no self-preservation instinct either, fittingly. You need to die horribly on the road you bitch.

    6. Re:And why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So that you can do something else with that time.

      So that you can reduce your impact on global climate change.

      So that you don't have to pay for parking, gas, tolls, and maintenance on your car.

      So that you're not stuck in traffic jams.

      Or you could care because it keeps a lot of other drivers off the road making your commute less painful.

      Of course, if you had a Tesla instead of a BMW, many of those reasons wouldn't apply or would be significantly reduced.

      yes because his car would be in the shop and not being driven

    7. Re:And why should I care? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Awww, someone mad they're stuck in traffic as we motorcyclists go by you - legally? Too bad you pay so much more for insurance, upkeep - and original purchase price. Not to mention gas (I get a solid 60 MPG on my bike), free parking, etc. Keep yourself locked up in your box and stew in traffic!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    8. Re:And why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Donorcycles are cool. So many fresh organs for people who need them.

  16. Re:Did anyone else read Subway's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Roast beef is generally not ground up, Ace.

  17. A Brief History of Private Transit by Comboman · · Score: 5, Informative

    For the first half of the twentieth century, a lot of transit systems in the US were private companies. They actually worked fairly well until they started to be bought up by a consortium of General Motors, Firestone and Standard Oil. Efficient trolley tracks were torn up and replaced by buses (which benefited the consortium). Eventually, even the buses were neglected to encourage the purchase of private cars. Local governments had little option but to buy and run the (intentionally) failing transit systems. In short, corporations can't be trusted to serve the public, because someone will always find a way to game the system and make it more profitable to not serve the public. Why do libertarians think they are so god damn brilliant for digging up old ideas that have been tried and failed in the past?

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    1. Re:A Brief History of Private Transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sort of right.
      1) The private transportation owners were mostly going out of business because of cars and the extension of decent roads. Trolleys and etc. were never that popular, especially in colder climates where heated cars were hit-or-miss.

      2) Busses were a god-send for strapped-for-cash transport companies because they could extend their routs on all those new, decent roads without having to buy or lease right-of-way.

      3) Public Transportation has operated at a loss since the introduction of the car/decent roads, but it still needs to be operated. It's part of the whole "public good" thing we like so much, like public schools and clean water.

    2. Re:A Brief History of Private Transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the trolley systems worked so well that they had to build amusement parks to keep ridership up on the weekends so they wouldn't go bust. And they went bust anyway. Sounds like an efficient business plan to me.

    3. Re:A Brief History of Private Transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... can't be trusted to serve the public...

      Of course not - they serve their shareholders. If contracts are carefully constructed, those two may align, but it's not a given. It's also not certain that while they align at the start of the contract, conditions may change by the end of it.

    4. Re:A Brief History of Private Transit by Geof · · Score: 1

      > They actually worked fairly well until they started to be bought up by a consortium of General Motors, Firestone and Standard Oil.

      By then, the street cars were already failing. Downtown-oriented travel patterns (the majority of the population headed there every day to work or shop) resulted in trolley traffic jams. Meanwhile, the operators were losing money because, responding to public pressure, government would not allow them to increase fares to keep up with inflation.

      The solution was widely believed to be subways or els, but interminable debates over funding and whom they should serve delayed development until with the onset of the Great Depression the window of opportunity closed. Over time, people bought cars. Cities responded by building with parking lots, hoping ta attract business downtown but hollowing out instead. Obsessed with the "modern" belief that everyone would drive everywhere (who cares about the young, the old, or houswives!) and supporting white flight from the centres, governments followed with zoning and planning regulations that basically imposed cars (and costs) on everyone.

      The Roger Rabbit story is true, but it doesn't actually explain the failure of public transit in the United States.

      Canada followed a similar path, but less fanatically. Here in Vancouver, public transit ridership has expanded 20% in three years. We have found that if you build high-frequency high-speed transit and zone for high-density development around the stations, the riders will come. I'd personally prefer 5-6 storey low-rises to the dozens of 40+ storey towers in my neighbourhood, but I can't deny that it works, and it's a huge improvement over strip-mall parking-lot land.

    5. Re: A Brief History of Private Transit by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      Before the "car and oil companies destroyed trolleys" tripe gets rolled out yet again, no. They were destroyed at the behest of suburbanites who hated trolleys because they caused accidents & clogged roads.

      Getting rid of trolleys (and curbside parking) is what enabled us to have divided 4 & 6-lane roads with proper left turn lanes in built-up areas without having to demolish every building on one side to make the room.

      The entire reason Miami voters keep wanting Metrorail (elevated heavy rail) expansion is the hope it'll get OTHER drivers off the road without getting in the way of cars. Light rail is nicer for riders than buses, but totally FUCKS UP traffic wherever LRT and cars share pavement.

      The single worst transit project in Miami's history was the South Dade Busway. Instead of building Metrorail south from Dadeland to Cutler Ridge (mostly at-grade, ducking under cross streets every mile or so like the Washington DC Metro's Yellow Line through Arlington), they built a shitty BRT line that literally DOUBLED the time it took to drive from Dadeland to Cutler Ridge along US-1. Pre-Busway, Dade County spent YEARS fine-tuning the traffic light timing along that road. The Busway shot it all straight to hell by invalidating years of optimizations & tweaks in a single shot. It even fucked up cross-traffic by putting right turns on (usually, red) traffic lights as well.

      Transit NEEDS to be grade-separated, or it sucks for everyone (ESPECIALLY the people whose taxes pay for it). At least, wherever it crosses a divided 4/6/8-lane road with traffic lights (2-lane residential roads that only have stop signs to begin with have a bit more room for negotiation)

    6. Re:A Brief History of Private Transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, bullshit. If the buses were in demand, and a consortium running them was neglecting them, then another business would start running their own buses and eat the consortium's lunch.

      Buses declined because we got rich enough to afford private cars, not because of some evil conspiracy. And they'll come back if private cars become expensive again, through congestion charges etc.

  18. California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    California has nice trains because it borrowed a lot of money.
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/18/the-great-california-train-wreck/

    One day in the not so distant future, it will either go bankrupt, or it will divert a large proportion of its tax revenue away from services that help poor citizens (like the police department and forest management) so that they can pay interest and principal on their bonds and pension debt.

    There is no magic here. California borrowed a ton of money to pay for trains that won't be used very much. Soon, they will have the pay the money back.

    1. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      California has nice trains

      HAHAHAHAHAHA.....Oh God.......HAHAHAHAHA........

      Just looking at the Bay Area, but BART, CALTrain. Both are total fucking shitshows
      filled with scum of the earth hood rats, white\asian wannabe hood rats, curry goblins
      that reek of BO and shit, and women who think being surrounded by the dregs
      of society somehow makes them "enlightened".

      ACE is about the only nice bay area transit option, and it's privately owned.

    2. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      divert a large proportion of its tax revenue away from services that help poor citizens (like the police department and forest management)

      Isn't San Diego the city where the police stopped responding unless someone was shot? Story seems to confirm that was the case in 2011, and still mostly the case now.
      As for Fire Management, I think last month speaks for itself.

      So where do they cut to make the payments? Your suggestions have already been done.

    3. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Police help poor citizens? What dream world do you live in?

    4. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by Etcetera · · Score: 1

      divert a large proportion of its tax revenue away from services that help poor citizens (like the police department and forest management)

      Isn't San Diego the city where the police stopped responding unless someone was shot? Story seems to confirm that was the case in 2011, and still mostly the case now.
      As for Fire Management, I think last month speaks for itself.

      So where do they cut to make the payments? Your suggestions have already been done.

      VOSD is a bit slanted when it comes to that. I'd take a look at the average POV of all the various local media to get a better view on things. Basically, no that's not the case.

      Back on topic, San Diego is one of the few West Coast cities that's made its light rail system work and not sink into the red by focusing on commuter corridors, gradual expansion, and using existing right-of-ways. That said, like all CA cities it was not laid out with transit in mind and San Diegans as a whole are not in favor of converting to the types of density that would be necessary to make more transit financially viable. San Diego has a 30-block downtown core, and from there out it's mostly single family detached homes for the entire rest of the urbanized county. I grew up riding public transit because I used it to get to school, but no one who lives here uses it unless they have to or they live directly on the commuter corridor.

      Sadly, no one has quite told the Progressives this. San Diego has been trending from center-right to center/slightly-left; Dems finally have control of the SD City Council, and have forced SANDAG changes that gives the urban areas more say on regional transportation. What have they done? Diverted resources from road maintenance to transit programs, and replaced lanes on the streets with bike lanes in some bizarre belief that ANYONE will commute via bike to work.

      The only reason there hasn't already been a pushback against the effects of this has been Trump's general depressive effect on R turnout and Independents voting for R's. When/if that goes away, the Dems need to get their local planning back inline with reality or there'll be quite the pendulum shift back.

    5. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does one bike in San Diego? I'm here on vacation and I've seen the bike lanes. They seem slightly stupid to me since they are essentially a lane for cars with a cyclist icon painted on them with the thinking "this painted thing will remind drivers that they need to watch for cyclists" (which IME never works.)

      Admittedly, though, I live in a location where I have convenient access to county highways that have car-width shoulders for cyclists that cover hundreds of miles over my county and adjacent counties, so I'm pretty spoiled.

    6. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      The beach cities (Pacific Beach, Ocean Beach) are bikeable. Also, the northern burbs like Oceanside and Encinitas.

    7. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      -1, Cites Washington Times as a credible source of news

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    8. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by Woeful+Countenance · · Score: 1

      One day in the not so distant future, it will either go bankrupt, or it will divert a large proportion of its tax revenue away from services that help poor citizens (like the police department and forest management) so that they can pay interest and principal on their bonds and pension debt.

      If I recall correctly, both New York City and Detroit have declared bankruptcy in the past, but states aren't allowed to declare bankruptcy and aren't allowed deficit spending. And at some point, total debt exceeds any plausible amount of tax revenue. What happens then, I'm not sure.

    9. Re:California Owes more than a Trillion dollars by Etcetera · · Score: 1

      Biking in San Diego is generally done "by choice", either for recreation or sport. The beach communities, downtown, and the few other flat neighborhood regions that exist are really the only locations where it's a reasonable option for anything else (i.e., short term commuting).

  19. As usual, your interpretation is wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Public transit broke down in smaller cities, because capitalism made society productive enough for those denizens to purchase their own personal modes of transportation, namely cars. That's called prosperity.

    If you were right about it, then why didn't those local governments fix refresh and revise the "intentionally" failing transit systems? They didn't, for 2 reasons: Personal cars are better for the majority of America, and governments are insanely inept, because governments are composed of people, and the people who compose governments tend to be dummies, as smart and productive folks never aspire to be bureaucrats.

    Now, to make this more concrete, we're talking about Big Cities on the coasts, and all we see is this: Governments can't maintain long-lived infrastructure, but they can spend excessive resources building something that is impressive in the short-term (if you don't consider the considerable cost).

    Governments are bad investors; governments are bad businesses that won't go bankrupt because they can just decree their income at the point of a gun.

    At least those corporations of which you speak don't directly wield the power of taxation, or the jackboots of men with guns. You want to talk about the dangers of large, violent monopoly? Well, look no further than your precious government.

    1. Re:As usual, your interpretation is wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why didn't those local governments fix refresh and revise the "intentionally" failing transit systems?

      Because by the time they could, it was already too late. The automobile had become a staple of american life, and the streetcar rails were already removed.

      we're talking about Big Cities on the coasts

      I'm talking about Minneapolis.

  20. Re:Did anyone else read Subway's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would you eat a book?

    Of course he would, he ate all his spare haiku poem books and that's why I am unable to get a hard copy.

    He also eats all the IT spare parts when asked to clean the IT closet by his boss.

  21. Seattle and Transportation? What a joke! by GregMmm · · Score: 1

    Only written by someone who knows nothing about Seattle transit. What kind of misleading comment is "Seattle has won accolades for its transit system, where 93 percent of riders report being happy with service" Right all few thousand of them? At the same time, I5 through downtown Seattle has the same chock point it's had for the last 40+ years. Brilliant idea to build a convention center over the freeway, so nothing can be upgraded. The wonderful light rail system is waaaay over budget and cost by far more per mile than any other city. It's just starting to be useful by connecting to SeaTac, but at what is a huge cost. Buses? Stuck on the same roads with the cars. Only nice thing about the bus is someone else has to deal with the traffic. And to top it all off, the Alaska Way viaduct (3 lanes) will be shutting down to be replaced with a new tunnel (2 lanes) with out on and off ramps in the middle.

    Seattle and transportation should only be referenced if they would like to point out what is wrong and how not to do it. I'm sure the vast majority of commuters who try and use the roads would give a slightly lower approval with service. Of course, those evil gas burning cars are what pays for all the mass transit in Seattle.

    Please Note: I'm not against trains and such. I used the bus and MAX train system in Portland and it worked great. I just get pissed when someone writes misleading stories to make it sound like the "West Coast" really knows what they're doing with mass transit. At least the Seattle part doesn't have a clue, they just know how to spend alot of money.

  22. Mass transit is very important by DogDude · · Score: 1

    Mass transit is very important to my family. My spouse and I are professionals, with jobs in different cities. We cannot (won't) live somewhere where there isn't decent mass transit. Spending a large part of our lives sitting in automobiles is not something we'll consider. Right now, we can live in Europe or the NE US. If the West Coast gets some reasonable mass transit, we'd consider living/working there, too.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Mass transit is very important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leaches

    2. Re:Mass transit is very important by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Illiterates.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    3. Re:Mass transit is very important by crgrace · · Score: 1

      San Francisco is decent (not amazing, but decent). My wife and I both use it to commute and to make weekend trips downtown, to the airport and so on.

  23. "not expanded in decades" - wrong by stuff-n-things · · Score: 1

    NYC: 7 train extended to Hudson Yards (http://web.mta.info/capital/no7_alt.html), and Q train extended up the Upper East side (http://web.mta.info/capital/phase2_about_sas.html)

    DC: (or rather VA): Silver Line extension to Dulles International (https://www.restonnow.com/2018/01/18/silver-line-phase-2-construction-is-nearly-76-percent-complete/)

  24. Sort of... by tomhath · · Score: 0

    The Pennsylvania Turnpike (now I-76) collects tolls that were specifically earmarked in the state constitution for maintenance and upgrades of the turnpike system. It worked well for years...until Ed Rendell was governor.

    When he was running for office he swore he wouldn't take money from the rest of the state and send it to Philadelphia but he did anyway, including some accounting shenanigans to divert the turnpike tolls (state police pensions are considered turnpike maintenance aren't they? How else could he fund the big increases he rewarded the unions for their support after raiding the general revenue funds for other purposes?).

  25. $ spent != success and leadership by Kreplock · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was hoping the article might have comparisons of average commute times, distances covered, safety factors, and possibly some other non-intuitive customer concerns. Instead it lists money spent, voting results, years of service, and number of commuters carried. We're not getting important parts of the story.

    1. Re:$ spent != success and leadership by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      We're not getting important parts of the story.

      Those missing bits likely tell a different story,

  26. idiot replies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    kewl story bra

  27. Still about network design by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I rode the bus when I lived in Hawaii and it was cheap and convenient.

    Terrible example. I've spent lots of time in Hawaii. There is only one large city in the state and the geography elsewhere generally forces people to live close together where buses can actually make some sense. Plus owning and driving a car is crazy expensive there (just like most other things).

    When I moved to Pennsylvania it was less cheap and less convenient, but still did the job fairly well.

    I'm guessing you lived in one of the bigger cities if that was the case. I've lived in PA and in most of it bus service is either inconvenient or non-existent. I went to college in Eastern PA and aside from the busses around campus there was very limited bus service around the rest of the metro area (Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton) You basically had to own a car to get anywhere useful in a reasonable amount of time.

    Now maybe it's my own fault for not fully realizing that the bus doesn't stop in my part of town, but it's that inconvenience that causes me to just jump on the interstate and park in my building's parking lot, even though I hate the traffic.

    The problem is that where you live wasn't designed with bus service or any other public transit in mind. Bus service is almost always just an afterthought which works ok but not great in most cities which were designed with cars as primary transport. It doesn't require rails or other fixed infrastructure like trains or trolleys and it can be re-routed relatively easily. Honestly I've never lived in a place where bus transportation was a practical option.

    1. Re:Still about network design by geoscodin · · Score: 1

      Terrible example. I've spent lots of time in Hawaii. There is only one large city in the state and the geography elsewhere generally forces people to live close together where buses can actually make some sense. Plus owning and driving a car is crazy expensive there (just like most other things).

      I didn't intend Hawaii to be the standard. Being an island, there is only so much land, so it can't outgrow its user base. It was just my starting point. I did move 2 cars there from the mainland and quickly sold one because of the expense and lack of need. If you want to talk non-existent, I went to college in rural Alabama and the only buses there were Greyhounds.

      I'm guessing you lived in one of the bigger cities if that was the case. I've lived in PA and in most of it bus service is either inconvenient or non-existent. I went to college in Eastern PA and aside from the busses around campus there was very limited bus service around the rest of the metro area (Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton) You basically had to own a car to get anywhere useful in a reasonable amount of time.

      As far as PA, I lived across the river from Harrisburg. I still had to walk (I enjoy walking) a mile to the bus stop, but it was at a grocery store so I could leave my car in the parking lot when weather wasn't conducive to walking. I was raised on a farm down the turnpike from Pittsburgh and we had no transit there when I left, but I was only 10.

      The problem is that where you live wasn't designed with bus service or any other public transit in mind. Bus service is almost always just an afterthought which works ok but not great in most cities which were designed with cars as primary transport. It doesn't require rails or other fixed infrastructure like trains or trolleys and it can be re-routed relatively easily. Honestly I've never lived in a place where bus transportation was a practical option.

      I've never lived anywhere with above- or below-ground rail, although I have used them during to trips to Atlanta, NYC, and LA. I prefer them to driving into the cities, but as I said I don't use them long-term. I UBER most places now, which does little to help with traffic congestion.

  28. Yeah that's not going to fly by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I've been to the Highline park and it is hugely popular. You may be right it would be better to use those lines for transport, but there's no arguing that people deeply love the Highline park and building of elevated parks like that will (literally) soar... it makes a tone of sense for dens cities since it lets you have a larger park without disrupting traffic while enabling lots more pedestrians in a narrow corridor.

    I honestly think Musk has the right idea here. Leave the surface to people and just build a lot more tunnels cheaply to enable transit between different points in a large city.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Yeah that's not going to fly by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      No doubt it's popular, and its far-west location makes it less useful for transit than it would be if it were more towards the center, which is why there wasn't much resistance.
      The issue with deep tunnels is getting to/from them - long escalators or cramped elevators. The subway stations that can be reached with 2-3 flights of stairs are always better. The only time I've had a pleasant-ish experience with a deep one was Forest Glen DC metro station where they have 6 high speed high capacity elevators to get people from the surface to track level instead of escalators that always break or get clogged up with people standing and not walking.

      The Queens route I mentioned though, there is quite plenty of park already (especially Forest Park) and the nearby Woodhaven Blvd has standing room only buses every 2-3 minutes most hours of the day. Operating costs would plummet if instead of buses there were trains. Any sane city would have made the conversion 10 years ago.

    2. Re:Yeah that's not going to fly by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      How do you account for the fact there are 27 major fault lines in the LA Metro area? And those are just major fault lines; there are literally hundreds of minor fault lines. Additionally, about half the valley and the main metro area are at risk of liquefaction in a strong earthquake. Earthquakes/liquefaction and tunnels don't combine really well...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  29. Self driving electric cars by Dan+East · · Score: 1

    Self driving electric cars are going to make most of this moot before long. Especially when we're talking about the time frames in the comparison between, say NYC Subway (started 110 years ago) and Seattle's more modern transportation system.

    Self driving cars, when fully realized (IE 100% of the vehicles on a roadway are self driving), will be a sight to behold. The density that can be achieved with a networked system of vehicles that communicate one with another is extremely high - they can practically be touching each other. Vehicles can travel faster, merging in and out will be seamless with no slowing of traffic. All vehicles at a traffic light could begin moving at the same moment when the light turns green. The efficiency compared to human drivers will be many times higher. This solves most of the traffic volume issues we see now.

    Vehicles can drop off and pick up passengers, then go park themselves (or give other people rides) in the meantime. That greatly improves the parking situation.

    Elon Musk is working on longer range transportation (hyper loop) that will transport people in the vehicles they are already in at high speed over longer distances. This is more efficient then taking a taxi to a bus stop and a bus to a subway stop, and vice versa. (and please don't claim the solution is to only live and work next to subway or bus stops).

    All of this is more desirable than fixed public transportation (either due to physical limits, like railroad tracks, or routes, like buses).

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Self driving electric cars by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Hyperloop is too narrow to transport existing vehicles. "Loop" may do this, but "Loop" is basically underground personal rapid transit -- subway with trains one car long aka a people mover. Self-driving vehicles won't operate "practically touching each other" or move immediately when a light turns green. Slight differences in braking distances between vehicles would make this impractical, plus system designs would have to account for pedestrians.

    2. Re:Self driving electric cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Self driving electric cars are going to make most of this moot before long.

      Bwahahahah, cars are nowhere near ready to be let loose on their own en masse in traffic, and even if they were, a million cars are still a million cars no matter who's driving them. It doesn't matter that you can pack them tighter, it's like peeing in your pants. It warms you up for the moment, but it's not really a solution.

      If you think a larger volume of vehicles are going to solve any problems, I have a picture to show you. The only thing that so far is proven is that if you increase the capacity for cars is that you get more cars, so you need more roads. And even if you can pack these magic autonomous EVs tighter, you're still so far behind a bus, let alone a train that is't not even funny. In fact it doesn't even measure up as what it is though, a poor, expensive excuse for people who simply doesn't want to acknowledge that everyone constantly going everywhere by car simply isn't feasible.

      Thanks for the laugh though.

    3. Re:Self driving electric cars by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      IOW sort of like a train except about 1000 times more expensive, 100 times more complicated, and 1000 times less efficient.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    4. Re: Self driving electric cars by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      The biggest impact of self-driving cars will be:

      1) 4 daily rush hours instead of one: to work, home (empty) to park for free, to work (empty) to pick up, and to home.

      2) people using city streets as free parking lots by having their car do laps around the block (especially after driving empty from home to work, while waiting for passenger to arrive.

      Some people will pimp out their cars with Uber, but most people won't want their BMW or Mercedes to get destroyed like a public bus & will just send it home empty.

  30. SD-LA-SF by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Here's what's missing -- on the East Coast, you can go from NYC to Boston, DC, Springfield, MA, Harrisburg, Poughkeepsie, Philly, Eastern LI, many parts of NJ, all via frequent commuter or commuter-type rail service. California can't even get LA-SF rail built. There's one train a day that runs via Oakland, doesn't even pass through SF directly.

    1. Re:SD-LA-SF by Etcetera · · Score: 1

      Technically you can take the Coaster in San Diego up to Oceanside, where you can link up with some other service (Metrolink?), but I can't imagine any normal person doing that for work.

      Southern California just doesn't have the density for that kind of regional rail, and in order to make it work financially you'd need to convert the relevant parts to something approaching that. No way that happens any time soon, and probably not ever here in San Diego.

    2. Re:SD-LA-SF by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      As far as SD-LA, there's a direct train -- the Surfliner aka the San Diegan. It actually runs a fair bit north of LA as well, to San Luis Obispo or Santa Barbara. No need to change in Oceanside unless you're taking local commuter trains the whole way.

      Surfliner is an acceptable service, though it really should be electrified between LA and SD. Problem is that train service is nil between SLO and SF, and the "high speed rail" project is turning into a joke -- overpriced and ridden with corruption. Had the state allowed French or Chinese bids, the fucking thing could have been built already.

  31. Unite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I Think USA was ONE country that should strive to get their development as a whole, not by establishing a competition of which "coast" does it better. Useless. Unite instead of Reacting.

    1. Re: Unite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are a big country. Huge. 3rd most populous nation in the world, covering a major part of a continent, with 50 states making up the nation.

      You must understand this when you wonder why we can't seem to just decide on one thing and get it done at once.

  32. Are they really though by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Seattle may be great now, but have you BEEN on a Caltrain recently anywhere around San Francisco? They are rickety and old and not that far behind NYC in a near state of going to fail soon.

    LA may have allocated a ton of money to improve transportation, but it's kind of optimistic to assume it will do anything to help when the can't even get an estimate for high speed rail in CA right within an order of magnitude...

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Are they really though by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      New Federal standards allow basically unmodified European trains in the US -- lighter construction, more emphasis on crash avoidance vs crash safety. Caltrain is one of the first US railroads to be under contract to buy basically stock aluminium Stadler KISS train sets, the same equipment as Swiss Federal Railways uses on large parts of their network. Compared to overweight trains built to the dumb, old US standards, this hardware is amazing.

      https://www.railwayage.com/pas...

    2. Re:Are they really though by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I will grant the train going from SF down south was fine. I'm talking more about the subways under SF, and especially the creaky ancient Oakland to SF line I took a number of times when staying there,

      Although at least it got me there every time, more than I can say for the damn NJ to NYC line I've taken a few times... (well, OK, it got me there - just an hour late).

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    3. Re:Are they really though by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      BART =/= Caltrain.

    4. Re:Are they really though by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Seattle may be great now ...

      As a Seattle transit rider, I do feel somewhat obligated to point out that Seattle (and the greater Puget Sound east corridor) does have some great transit in place now - but, even in Seattle proper, there are areas which are very poorly served. And once you get outside of the city, there's a lot more areas which aren't served than are covered.

      I can take a train into Seattle, and then ride light rail up to UW - but I still have to drive to the train station because bus service around my house is just about nonexistent (admittedly I don't live in King County - they do a somewhat better job with bus coverage).

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    5. Re:Are they really though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THERE WILL ALWAYS BE CONSEQUENCES FOR YOUR LIES AND PROPAGANDA NAZI FAGGOT KEN DOLL

      Filter error: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING. Filter error: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

  33. You're begging the question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Public schools are arguably a total failure (that's why there are private schools), and clean water is not dependent on taxation (and the preponderance of bottled water and private wells proves this).

    Privatize all the things. Taxation corrupts.

    1. Re:You're begging the question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My first Troll sighting of 2019. I'm so excited!

    2. Re:You're begging the question by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      By your reasoning, we should get rid of modern medicine because some patients can't be saved. My great-grandfather died of blood poisoning from a tooth abscess; I'm guessing you'd enjoy sharing his fate?

      TL;DR: Perfect is not the enemy of good.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  34. LA public transportation options by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The LA metro system is well functioning (I use it to commute to work, and I use it any time I go downtown - I would never drive there any more).

    You must be one of the lucky 5 people who actually lives near a station. Doesn't apply to most people in LA as evidenced by their continued overwhelming utilization of automobiles. Approximately 7% of people commute by public transit in LA. Any number greater than zero is good but let's not pretend that it's a hugely significant factor for most of the population. Compare with NYC having around 2/3 of all commuting happening via public transportation.

    And by definition when people from the suburbs take the metro they aren't driving. So, yeah, it does cause a reduction in the number of cars on the freeways and surface streets.

    Curious then that ridership is falling dramatically in the last 5 years and that Seriously, LA's mass transit is barely more than a bus system that nobody rides if they don't have to. The infrastructure was designed around cars and remains so to this day. Changing that is going to cost VAST sums of money and take a long time to take effect in a substantial way because it will require convincing a LOT of people to relocate.

    I know, I know. You'll be now be setting new, higher bars you demand to be cleared for your satisfaction.

    Not at all. You will need to clear the old ones first before I worry about moving any goal posts. The evidence doesn't support your thesis.

    1. Re:LA public transportation options by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Koreatown has 3 stations. Ktown is one of the highest density neighborhoods in Los Angeles. In other words, shut the fuck up, faggot.

  35. Blame Democrat party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The democrat part favers urban thugs and city dwellers over hard working real Americans who live in rural and suburban areas. They funnel trillions of taxpayer dollars STOLEN from hard working Americans and put it into fat cat union beurocrat run wasteful flim flams and shams.

  36. Yes. The automobile is superior. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Minnesotans are practical people who also tend towards socialist ideas.

    Guess what? They chose automobiles.

  37. Park that surrounds a bike trail by tepples · · Score: 1

    I first encountered the term "linear park" when studying the greenways that surround some bicycle trails. For example, the Fort Wayne Rivergreenway is a flood control park that forms the backbone of the city's trail network.

  38. Re:taxes by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    These Eastern Cities that have these Mass Transit systems, are actually still thriving vibrant cities. It is more of an issue of poor leadership where everyone put off doing maintenance and putting a smaller amount of money into fixes and upgrades, and just put it off for the next administration, until it reaches a point it is impossible to fix.

    The supposedly Blue states, like NY have had a GOP controlled leadership up the board. Normally you will only get consistently blue votes for US Senate and Presidential Votes, but when it is broken down to districts, there is much more GOP control. and the GOP doesn't want to spend money on anything. Thinking that if they don't spend the money they won't gain more expenses. Which only lasts for a short period of time.

    The high taxes in these blue states, is due to them having a number of highly consecrated population centers, which needs more government services to keep the people safe and prosperous.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  39. Boston's public transport is shite by newdsfornerds · · Score: 1

    I refuse to use it. It's been a disgraceful hackorama since I can remember. The MBTA union is a large part of the problem. You work 20 years and retire with full pay for the rest of your life.

    --
    Damping absorbs vibrations. Dampening is caused by moisture.
  40. Re:taxes by RenderSeven · · Score: 2

    According to the NY Times detailed report on MTA problems there is plenty of blame for all. I can find absolutely no supporting evidence that "GOP Controlled Boards" are responsible and I trust the left-leaning NYT to have found them if they existed. Yes absolutely the Republican mayor and governor screwed the MTA but so did the Democratic legislatures back their proposals, and the Democratic mayors and governors did no better. Everyone in office treated the MTA as a piggybank and robbed it.

  41. Re:taxes by jellomizer · · Score: 2

    Sorry I was trying to illustrate two points.
    1. Poor leadership is the cause of the problem, not tax rates.
    2. States are actually more diverse then what Cable News lets on.

    The topic was stating that it was because of the Democrats and High Taxes was the cause. However those are not the major factor.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  42. Re: taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem is that everywhere else invested in shitty-tier light rail to maximize the amount of subsidy from the federal government. Lightrail has been an unmitigated disaster everywhere it has been built at grade. Only cities that actually built completely (subway) or mostly grade separated systems are actually getting use.

    Vancouver BC, has the most frequent, most used, and cheapest to run transit system in North America. One of the municipalityâ(TM)s (Surrey) wanted to ruin it by running shitty surface lightrail though the fastest growing section just to make developers happy and their entire council was voted out.

    Smart cities build grade-separated automated rail transport like Honolulu. Stupid cities follow Portland like Houstonâ(TM)s crappy dangerous systems that have hundreds of human-caused accidents per month.

  43. Deep stations can work, but are not Muskian by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    I hesitate to hold out Russia as a positive model for anything, but they have very deep subway stations and the escalators I rode in St Petersburg worked really well, carrying a ton of people (basically one very long escalator down).

    There's at least one other city I've been in (I think in Europe) that also had very good deep subways, though which city it was eludes me...

    However with Musk's tunnels you don't have very deep entry stations. You get in at a station maybe two stories down, and for longer trips the car or bus transfers to deeper tunnels as needed.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Deep stations can work, but are not Muskian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      escalators I rode in St Petersburg worked really well, carrying a ton of people

      So, they could carry about 15 people?

      Impressive.

    2. Re:Deep stations can work, but are not Muskian by tjonnyc999 · · Score: 1

      The subway network in St. Petersburg and Moscow was designed as a massive interconnected bomb shelter; it was further upgraded with blast doors capable of withstanding shockwaves from nuclear weapons, dedicated air filtration systems, etc, etc. The East Coast subway system was built before the Cold War days, and by the time the nuclear threat materialized, the system was so developed that it made no sense to change it.

  44. Real Issue by cstacy · · Score: 1

    The real issue is: Which subway has the most excrement on it?
    The most feces and urine all over the station, in the train cars, and on the seats?

    And how much do you have to walk through when you get off the train?

  45. Re:taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Highly consecrated population centers"?

    I knew NYC was holy ground for the upper class, but I didn't know all evil was banished from there. Maybe that's why their gun control works.

  46. Boston's problems come from the Big Dig. by hey! · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Big Dig was the most expensive mile of road ever constructed. It replaced the 1950s era elevated highway that cut off Boston from its waterfront. Which is nice, but the problem (aside from the astronomical cos) is that it violated the Clean Air Act.

    So the state cut a deal: they'd mandate the extension of the MBTA (the mass transit system for Boston and its suburbs) along with a number of facilities improvements like parking lots. That's nice too, except there was no funding for these things, forcing the MBTA to pay for these improvements out of money that would have gone to maintenance and replacing rolling stock.

    Consequently, the MBTA has some nice new facilities, but their core commuter services are old and breakdown-prone. They're particularly notorious for stranding commuters in extreme cold weather. The MBTA is also saddled with 125 million dollars a year in debt service to pay for stuff it had to build to make the highway possible.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re: Boston's problems come from the Big Dig. by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      The Big Dig was expensive, but that's partly because it involved a lot of untested new technologies developed & used for the first time (ex: freezing muddy land under railroad tracks and using hydraulic jacks to ram tunnels through the soggy mud below... or building an underground freeway big enough to play multiple football games in, side by side, while the elevated freeway above remained in use). Some things worked, some things didn't. But SOMEBODY had to be the first to try. Some of those technologies ended up being useful for other projects, but the r&d cost is still counted entirely against TBD.

    2. Re: Boston's problems come from the Big Dig. by hey! · · Score: 1

      Sure, but the fact that *somebody* has to be first doesn't necessarily justify a project you can't really afford.

      Everything the Big Dig tried to do -- reconnecting the city to its waterfront, extending and improving certain public transit facilities -- was desirable. But that doesn't make the project good engineering, economics, or public policy, because all of those things have to take *cost* into account. Especially opportunity costs.

      If we'd put the same amount of money, roughly 21 billion in todays terms, into public transit, then simply *knocked down* the old elevated highway, not only would that have been better for the city, the whole country would have got more for its contribution. The entire East Coast rail network ends at Boston's South Station. A mile away at North Station is the start of an entirely separate and unconnected network which brings Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and Eastern Canada within reach... of Boston's North End. Crossing that mile with a much cheaper rail tunnel would connect the rest of the US to Northern New England and eastern Canada.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    3. Re: Boston's problems come from the Big Dig. by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      And how would west Boston suburbanites get to the airport? I remember what getting to Logan airport USED to be like pre-Big-Dig. To call it a "total clusterfuck" would be a compliment.

      Sometimes, you just need to do the job right, costs be damned. TBD is an example of "doing it awesomely right".

    4. Re: Boston's problems come from the Big Dig. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They would have taken the subway, like they have been able to do since 1952.

  47. That's a straw man argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only reasoning that is warped appears to be your own.

    1. Re:That's a straw man argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He would have done better with something like, "Modern medicine is arguably a total failure (that's why there are faith healers)." But I still gave him a mod point for a good try.

  48. Re:Seattle and Transportation? What a joke! by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2, Informative

    Only written by someone who knows nothing about Seattle transit. What kind of misleading comment is "Seattle has won accolades for its transit system, where 93 percent of riders report being happy with service" Right all few thousand of them?

    You claim to be familiar with Seattle but obviously aren't. Transit use is popular - and growing. Fewer people drive to work in Seattle than take transit, bike, or walk - and that's been true for a number of years.

    As of February 2018:
    48% of Seattle workers are taking transit
    25.4% are driving solo
    10% car or van pool
    8% walk
    3% bicycle to work
    6% "other"

    Back in February 2013:
    43% of Seattle workers rode either the bus or the train
    34% drove solo
    9% car or van pooled
    6% walked
    4% telecommuted
    3% biked

    I've been taking transit to work in Seattle since 2003 - And absolutely LOVE having light rail to UW (since 2016)!

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  49. Tunnels are safest place during earthquake by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    How do you account for the fact there are 27 major fault lines in the LA Metro area?

    That's EXACTLY why tunnels are the future in places like LA, because they are way safer than surface structures in an earthquake.

    As Musk pointed out, rescue workers were able to get inside Mexico City after the huge earthquake there by using the UNDAMAGED subway lines.

    You could almost imagine a large network of tunnels under a city as a vital emergency services access measure.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Tunnels are safest place during earthquake by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      You're comparing a tunnel against the Viaduct which was condemned in 2001 Seattle earthquake. Now about a tunnel against surface streets? That's more applicable to the LA area.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  50. Re:taxes by RenderSeven · · Score: 1

    Ah, I see that now. Thanks! Agreed!

  51. agreed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've watched people try to make a public transportation commute work in LA for decades. Recently a buddy was on a rant about how, even though the commute literally used the intersection between two of the major bus routes, the lines were so out of sync that the unexpected convenience was minimized. 30 minutes by car during worst case evening rush hour, 2 1/2 hours minimum by bus no matter what.

    LA will only improve when the political will exists to legislate around the automobile or consumer flying car technology arrives from China. The later is standard 18 - 36 months away forever and the former is "only after the big one"

  52. Simple explanation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Liberals actually approve funding for public infrastructure! (And for you conservatives out there: the more they spend on transportation, the more they can skim off in graft!)

  53. When You're At The Bottom by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 0

    The only place to go is up. The west coast is still shit.

  54. That's a lot of little people by Woeful+Countenance · · Score: 1

    "Its daily subway and bus ridership of nearly 8 million dwarfs ...."

  55. Read the article again by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    The lower you are underground the safer you are, because there is less motion. The closer you get to ground level, and then beyond that, the more the waves from earthquakes amplify motion.

    I am not comparing anything, I am explaining how earthquakes work!!!!!!

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  56. Re: taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes. Portland's system sucks. It's faster to walk than to take a streetcar, and driving takes half the time of MAX.

    San Francisco's rail is fine where it's underground, but becomes an unusable nightmare where it runs on surface streets.

  57. Succinct explanation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which I will have to use in my next argument about privacy (since no one in America has the wherewithal to care about it anymore, even though my grade school teacher used to rant about how without privacy the communists will have won...)

    1. Re:Succinct explanation. by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      That's because today the grade school teachers seem to be telling kids the communists should have won so we should be like them.

    2. Re:Succinct explanation. by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I have a friend who is living in a different part of the same state. He defines privacy as: If you can't piss off your front porch, the neighbors are too damn close.

      Needless to day, public transportation in his little corner of the world isn't a concern and nobody is pushing for it there.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  58. Re:taxes by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    The money needed to keep the subway system is getting used for city social spending and other virtue signalling city services.
    No new money is going in and any money created by the subway is getting used to pay for city services not related to the subway.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  59. Re: taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reading this while traveling 70mph under ground on the BART, while everyone else above ground is stuck in traffic. It works, alright!

  60. Re:taxes by wyHunter · · Score: 1

    We're discussing New York City here. Are there any Republicans in office in the five boroughs? I'm guessing more endemic corruption probably did it.

  61. Re:Seattle and Transportation? What a joke! by Fringe · · Score: 1

    I too live in the area - this does not reflect the reality of my cohort in any recent Seattle jobs. I don't believe the survey is accurate, perhaps due to a sampling error. How do you sample for a question like that in a town as judgmental as Seattle?

    I used to be a bus rider to my (previous) Seattle job, until politics resulted in Metro cancelling the always-full "express" route from Kirkland to Seattle through some odd accounting (deciding that the one-way express routes were 40% empty by using a phantom empty return trip), to allow them to justify more routes to "underserved" but not as busy routes for people not commuting to a day job.

    That's ultimately why Seattle can't do mass transit... or clean up downtown, or reduce crime... every decision is cast in intangible and ever-changing social justice terms, with competing interests and ideologies.

  62. Re:Seattle and Transportation? What a joke! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you read the links you provided? Those numbers do not cover Seattle as you imply, they only cover the 200K city center workers.
    Greater Seattle's population is something 3.5 million.

  63. Re: taxes by Dayze!Confused · · Score: 1

    I actually use Portland's system every day. Certainly the street car sort of sucks, not that taking the street car is slow, but when my destination is a 15 minute walk and the next car is 15-30 minutes I just end up walking. The Max on the other hand works wonderfully for me. As a student at PSU I enjoy reading or sleeping on the train for the 40 minutes it takes to get me home. Traffic on the major freeways during commute time can often take longer than that. As a cyclist also I would rather have the rails underground as they can become a mess for bicycles to navigate across.

    --
    "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
  64. Corrupt Politicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    New York state, in particular, keeps electing corrupt politicians who refused to invest in infrastructure but instead mainly serve to line their own pockets and the pockets of their family and friends. Countless NY state legislators have been arrested and convicted.

    But what gets me is why New York keeps electing governor Andrew Cuomo. Cuomo famously launched an anti-corruption task force shortly after he was elected the first time. But then when the anti-corruption task force started investigating people close to the governor, Cuomo shut the anti-corruption task force down!

    New York City gets shitty subways because New York keeps electing shitty politicians like Andrew Cuomo.

  65. Let's Not Race to Praise All That is New by eepok · · Score: 1

    While the West Coast is finally getting its act together and doing its best to go heavier on transit /before/ it begins to mimic the super-high density of New England metropolitan areas, let's not rush to praise all of the novelty in recent transportation news.

    The electric scootershare thing, for example, has been shown to actually make transportation worse. That sub-industry is not taking people out of their cars. It's convincing people who would have otherwise ridden the bus, subway, light rail, a bike, or just walked to pay to stand still. Few people use the scooters according to the law (most states ban them from the sidewalk) and cities are being sued for ADA violations because the cities haven't reacted quickly enough to have the scooters removed when they show up to operate without a business license.

    Moreover, the race to "get big and win" within electric scootershare has encouraged companies to cut corners. As with the "hoverboards" fad, some companies are beginning to source lower and quality batteries so they can charge less and less per ride with fiery results. Similarly, they're using less reinforcing material, so they're breaking after less use. The wise cities are waiting to see who survives the race to the bottom and, if their communities support the inclusion of electric scootershare, how best to implement them locally.

    Cities have been also reluctant to embrace self-driving cars because they don't yet operate with the consistency and adaptability required to gain trust. The whole idea of jumping from pure-human driving to never-human driving is a fantasy. We're going to slowly gain more and more autonomous features in our purchased vehicles before the majority of people begin to actually trust autonomous vehicles enough to fully relinquish control of who (or what) is driving their children to school. Most municipalities do not want to be testing grounds for such nascent technology that a contract must include clauses regarding death.

  66. Population density by sjbe · · Score: 1

    If you want to talk non-existent, I went to college in rural Alabama and the only buses there were Greyhounds.

    That describes most of the US outside of major cities and not very far outside those cities either. The nearest regular bus service to where I currently live is about 15-20 miles away in a local college town. It's actually just as far for me to reach the nearest Amtrak station. It's not like I live out in the Styx either. I can be in my local Nordstroms at an upscale shopping mall in under 20 minutes door to door. It's just that once you leave the major cities the population density drops precipitously so bus service (not to mention trains) rapidly become too expensive to justify.

    I UBER most places now, which does little to help with traffic congestion.

    Not an affordable option for me - you must not travel a huge amount. I drive 30-40K miles per year. Uber is a reasonable option if you don't travel huge distance or are in need of an occasional taxi ride but I drive so much that the cost of the car per mile is easily cheaper to own a car. In my case I now use an EV for most commuting which has saved me a small fortune in gas and maintenance. (probably ~$1500 in the last 6 months)