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Vinyl and Cassette Sales Continued To Grow Last Year (fortune.com)

Albums sold on vinyl and cassette both saw a growth in sales according to BuzzAngle Music's End-Year Report profiling U.S. music industry consumption for 2018. From a report: Vinyl sales grew by just shy of 12% from 8.6 to 9.7 million sales, while cassette sales grew by almost 19% from 99,400 to 118,200 copies sold in the US, The Verge reported. Sixty-six percent of those vinyl sales were of albums that are more than three years old and feature classic bands like The Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, and Pink Floyd, reported BuzzAngle. Cassettes saw popularity in newer releases. CDs on the other hand have declined by 18.5% in popularity leading to a total decline in physical album sales of over 15%, reported The Verge. Meanwhile, audio streaming saw an increase of 41.8%, the largest of all music consumption.

272 comments

  1. Old People Don't Know No Better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can hear a difference.

    1. Re: Old People Don't Know No Better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steve is cheating on you.

    2. Re: Old People Don't Know No Better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steve is quaking in his grave because he saw a spider and thinks there must be thousands more. Leave him be

  2. Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Some people get their hiss and crackle that way. I choose fire and snakes to accompany my digital music.

    1. Re:Hiss and crackle by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      Your tapes and records are in shitty shape if you hear hiss and crackle. The best part about analog music? No DRM and no bit rot.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    2. Re:Hiss and crackle by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      its worse than bit rot. bit rot implies you had once a perfect copy; and in that case, you could have copied it to HD and others for backup.

      vinyl and analog cassette NEVER let you get a perfect copy. each and every time you play it, it gets worse and different (both). can't avoid it unless you optically scan the LP; and no way to avoid degrading tapes (they stretch, have drop-outs, no redundancy, bleed-thru, HF loss, etc).

      I have no idea what you are talking about. I grew up with that stuff, glad its gone, I do audio for a hobby and digital is the only way to go.

      analog is for hipsters OR for those who have exceptional analog systems, and that's really rare, today.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:Hiss and crackle by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1
      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    4. Re:Hiss and crackle by Master+Moose · · Score: 1

      Although, If not cared for.. Actual rot is a possibility

      I remember grabbing a bunch of casettes out of what I thought was good storage. The tape looked like week old white-bread sandwiches

      --
      . . .gone when the morning comes
    5. Re:Hiss and crackle by fustakrakich · · Score: 3, Interesting

      no bit rot

      Yeah, the shit just wears out, which is much better...

      Vinyl and film I can understand, but magnetic medium just doesn't hold up. I don't understand why anybody would want a cassette tape. When are we going to bring back floppy disks? Or zip disks, there ya go... or better yet, punch cards and ladies in long skirts and high heels changing the reels of tape

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    6. Re:Hiss and crackle by mschuyler · · Score: 2

      There is extensive "bit rot" every time a needle scrapes through a groove and leaves a cloud of bits streaming behind it.

      --
      How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
    7. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tapes always had hiss and for a majority of people it was very prominent. The one's you bought at K-mart only used Dolby B NR, and most people didn't have Dolby NR on their tape decks, to poke just one hole in your "tape condition = noise level" horseshit theories.

    8. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I have no idea what you are talking about. I grew up with that stuff, glad its gone, I do audio for a hobby and digital is the only way to go.

      analog is for hipsters OR for those who have exceptional analog systems, and that's really rare, today.

      I listen to vinyl songs on youtube. They sound much better than the HQ CD version on youtube. The bass is clear on vinyl, and other instruments are also clear and separated better. Vinyl is an audiophile medium, whereas CDs are for people don't appreciate the finer details.

    9. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice subtle trolling ðYf

    10. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I literally want to know nothing about it. There. I said it. Now go away

    11. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Records have a high noise floor, essentially a hiss, and they don't last forever either.

      Cassettes are trash. I'm unclear how anybody could recommend them with a straight face.

      Even the oldest pressed CDs shouldn't suffer from bit rot yet, though I suppose some might be starting to. Since they are also DRM free, you can preserve the data with backups.

    12. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's nothing to do with the medium, it's entirely to do with the mastering.

    13. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Taking their cue, I made a cassette of a Youtube recording of an album and it was even betterer.

    14. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree on the cassettes.. They has pretty much always sucked! I still have a bunch and like old video tapes they have degraded in quality.. Now floppy disks rule! My 40 year old Atari 800 and 810 disk drive still read and play old ass floppies that are from the mid 80's and earlier. I booted up Ultima 4 on the Atari which I had not played since 1985!

    15. Re:Hiss and crackle by AmazingRuss · · Score: 1

      Just the deafening squeal of tape rot

    16. Re:Hiss and crackle by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      What SNR is your tape and turntable? And the ripped WAV files from CDs don't have DRM unless you choose to add your own...

      --
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    17. Re: Hiss and crackle by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1, Funny

      You want to know why music streamed over the Internet sounds better? It's because of the tubes. Everyone knows that audio sounds better through tubes, and that's all the Internet is. Tubes.

      --
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    18. Re:Hiss and crackle by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      I've been combing the aisles in Goodwill an
      d pawn shops for years, hunting for every r
      elated item I could find. And when the 8 t
      rack comes back, I'm going to make a killing!

      --
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    19. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This does not sound or look as good as that non-tube technology but this is still clear enough to make out the words

    20. Re: Hiss and crackle by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The only time I've seen it recently is for novelty value. A band hands out albums on cassette, and everyone says, "hey cool! I remember these!" I haven't been able to find anyone who claims they like the audio better.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    21. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well of course; we know it isn't like a big truck!

    22. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Should be easy to overlay hiss/crackle on a digital copy, if someone wants to add that to their player. I think it would be kind of cool to introduce some nostalgia.

    23. Re:Hiss and crackle by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      This is and other things.

      I can some what understand the love for vinyl. It has some redeeming value. The covers are big enough to put art on and the sound does appeal to some members of society.

      Cassette tapes? They are the worse medium for music devised by man. All the worse of vinyl without any of the art work. Tape stretches and breaks for almost no reason. Sounds like crap after a few plays too.

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    24. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just regular rot.

    25. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cassette tapes? They are the worse medium for music devised by man.

      No, 8-track tapes were even worse. Ugh.

      The original wax-based records were lousy too but at least they had the excuse that they were still figuring the technology out. There was no excuse for 8-track.

    26. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cassettes actually sounded decent with a minimum three band equalizer and a volume level loud enough to overpower any bias signal hiss. Listened through quality speakers, not just small portable stereo headphones (e.g., "Walkman" style) sounded better than LP. Dolby B noise reduction actually made the midrange sound a bit muffled, but they meant well to almost eliminate the hiss. I never had equipment with Dolby C or the rarer Dolby S type NR. Unequalized, they sounded thin and lifeless, lacking in treble and bass response. "Mega bass" or "Super Bass" features alone on some portable stereos often made the audio have too much low end without adding any high frequency response. Minimum EQ bands 100 Hz, 1 kHz, 10 kHz. Don't overboost the 100 Hz, not always necessary to max out 10 kHz (and in fact cassettes with notes they used Dolby HX Pro called for reducing treble response on non-Dolby equipment).

      CD wasn't perfect to start with either: 1980's to early 1990's CDs sound like they messed up the EQ curve, with insufficient bass unless boosted by tone controls or an EQ, and flast treble as thin as an LP through a cheaper kid-style turntable. "Loudness war" remastered makes it louder without quality, but a quality remastered CD doesn't require such a drastic volume increase to compensate for the issue that the recording is too soft and too thin sounding.

      Lossy compression was even over-marketed: 128kbps MP3 was never really "CD quality". Bass breakup on synth type bass sounds is duly noted even at 128kbps Constant Bit Rate MP3.

    27. Re:Hiss and crackle by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      AC The selling point back in the day was to invest in ever better metal and playback equipment.
      Buy into premium quality recordings.
      Noise reduction :)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    28. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "analog is for hipsters OR for those who have exceptional analog systems, and that's really rare, today"

      How about for those of us that play guitar?

      "I do audio for a hobby"

      You should probably quit right now given your infinitely-narrow views. Digital fucking SUCKS for live instruments, old-timer. Get with reality.

    29. Re:Hiss and crackle by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I use cassettes to listen to music in my car and on a portable player primarily.

      I already have a lot of cassettes - recording them to CDs (though CDs are bigger than cassettes, so it would be less convenient) or other digital formats would take a long time. It is easier to record the new CD I bought to a cassette so I can listen to it in my car.
      Also, some music (quite a lot on my country) was only released on a cassette, so if I want it, I have to buy (or copy) that cassette.
      I tried connecting my phone to the tape deck and playing mp3s. The problem was that I was too tempted to skips songs etc that it distracted me (I would select the next song at an intersection, not notice that the light is already green etc). With a tape, I just put it in and I listen to it until the end of side B. Also, connecting the phone, starting the player program is an additional thing to do when I start the car.
      I also tried minidiscs - better than using the phone and actually quite good for longer driving (let's say more than 45 minutes), also, it is easier to record from a PC to a minidisc. However, the need to connect an additional device is still there, so it's annoying for shorter trips and since I have more tapes than MDs it would be more inconvenient to replace the tape deck in my car with a MD player.

    30. Re: Hiss and crackle by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I can't play a record in my car, even if there were record players that did not skip on a slightly bumpy road, they would probably wear out the records pretty fast.

      And if I connect my phone to the car, then instead of just driving and listening I am tempted to play with the phone trying to select the next song at every opportunity (red light, stopping for a pedestrian etc).

      With a tape, I just put it in and listen until the end of side B.

    31. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The context of "vinyl and cassette" is audio REPRODUCTION for which digital is almost always far superior.

      Nobody is suggesting that analog is undesirable for music CREATION.

      Your outrage is misplaced.

    32. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The S/N ratio is worse for cassette and vinyl than for CD. The exception might be Dolby S, which few cassette decks support and for which there are about seventeen prerecorded cassettes.

    33. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Digital fucking SUCKS for live instruments

      Not sure what that means...for generating tones, or for mixing/amplifying?

      I have a number of digital pedals for my guitar, and they definitely do NOT suck!

    34. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Overrated" is for posts that have ALREADY BEEN MODDED UP, stupid fucking crackhead mods!!

    35. Re:Hiss and crackle by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Cassette tapes? They are the worse medium for music devised by man.

      Well no that's unfair. They were better than what went before. They were compact, the tape was pretty well protected, recordable and you could fit 120 minutes into a single tape. This allowed you to actually carry quite a lot of music with you. 1 or two tapes would see you through two bus journeys and whichever lessons you could listen to music in without getting caught...

      At the time they were about the best choice.

      Though I only bought a few albums on tape, mostly I copied them from CDs or friends to my own tapes.

      Tape stretches and breaks for almost no reason.

      Yeah but it wasn't that bad. Even the rather failure prone D120s would last a fair while. The somewhat thicker tape that music was sold on generally lasted better than that. I basically listened to everything on D120.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    36. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what is the impact of these technologies on remastering and on recording live music? Are analog recordings applicable to either of these?

    37. Re:Hiss and crackle by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Your tapes and records are in shitty shape if you hear hiss and crackle. The best part about analog music? No DRM and no bit rot.

      Tapes suffer from degradation all the time and records get worn out just by playing them.

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    38. Re:Hiss and crackle by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      I listen to vinyl songs on youtube.

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    39. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sound engineers are smart and never whine so much they get ejected from the studio.

    40. Re:Hiss and crackle by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Yeah but it wasn't that bad. Even the rather failure prone D120s would last a fair while. The somewhat thicker tape that music was sold on generally lasted better than that. I basically listened to everything on D120.

      Part of the problem is people don't realise there were a whole bunch of different types of cassette tapes because they all looked the same and went in the same players, of which there were also different types. Most people had bad tapes on bad players so the experience was bad.

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    41. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_turntable

    42. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your tapes and records are in shitty shape if you hear hiss and crackle.

      Your ears are shitty if you don't realize tapes and vinyl sound like crap.

      In the end, it makes no difference to me. I honestly think that if music we're more enjoyable today, people wouldn't be trying to roll back the sound quality so much to find something that makes it interesting.

    43. Re:Hiss and crackle by war4peace · · Score: 1

      no bit rot.

      Tape aging is much, much worse.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    44. Re:Hiss and crackle by war4peace · · Score: 1

      The narrowness is strong in this one...

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    45. Re:Hiss and crackle by Zobeid · · Score: 1

      I always buy new rock music on vinyl, because new CD releases are always afflicted with crushing dynamic range compression. Yes, CD beats vinyl handily if both are mastered properly, but where are you going to get a properly mastered CD these days? A CD that's sonically crushed will sound like crap when new, and it will sound like crap forever. I find that any rock CD pressed after 1999 (more or less) is probably bad.

      New LP releases are typically mastered "okay", not with as much dynamic range as they often had in the 1980s for example, but perfectly listenable. How we arrived at this point, I can't understand, but that's what record companies are shipping.

    46. Re:Hiss and crackle by Zobeid · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes. This. CDs can sound incredibly good if they're mastered right, but that's something record producers no longer have any interest in. Basically any rock or pop CD from about 2000 onward is going to sound crummy. Also, any recording from earlier than that if it has been remastered. When I see REMASTERED on a CD label, I mentally translate that as SPECIAL EBOLA EDITION.

    47. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always buy new rock music on vinyl, because new CD releases are always afflicted with crushing dynamic range compression. Yes, CD beats vinyl handily if both are mastered properly, but where are you going to get a properly mastered CD these days? A CD that's sonically crushed will sound like crap when new, and it will sound like crap forever. I find that any rock CD pressed after 1999 (more or less) is probably bad.

      New LP releases are typically mastered "okay", not with as much dynamic range as they often had in the 1980s for example, but perfectly listenable. How we arrived at this point, I can't understand, but that's what record companies are shipping.

      What you've noticed is known as the Loudness War. To sum up the situation, it's driven by marketing. The linked article has a nice write-up of the history and progression including examples.

    48. Re:Hiss and crackle by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      That's why a lot of people buying vinyl rip immediately to their computer. Then apply some noise reduction and click/pop removal. They want the better mastering on the vinyl edition but the convenience of digital, with the best possible sound quality.

      It's a shame laser turntables didn't catch on. I know at least one piracy group uses one, and there is one manufacturer in Japan that still makes them. They are the only way to listen that doesn't degrade the record every time.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    49. Re:Hiss and crackle by Bert64 · · Score: 2

      Given that youtube is a digital medium, you're saying that an analog medium converted to digital is better than a directly digital medium? This can only occur if the original digital version was extremely poorly done in the first place. You could take a digital rip from youtube and burn it to cd and it would sound identical to how it did on youtube, so the cd itself isnt the problem - it's how the audio was processed prior to being put onto cd.

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    50. Re: Hiss and crackle by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Most modern cars have a button on the steering wheel to let you skip to the next track etc, very easy and doesn't distract you from the act of driving.

      What i hate are cars where for "safety reasons" they won't let you access certain functions like setting a destination for the navigation system while the car is moving, even if those functions are being used by a passenger.

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    51. Re: Hiss and crackle by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Lending original media is a bad idea, just make copies on demand.
      When i was a kid i was always encouraged to make copies of any tapes or floppy discs i bought, and then play the copies and if the media got damaged just make another copy. Kids destroy things.

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    52. Re:Hiss and crackle by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like your phone was poorly integrated into the car, probably through one of those cassette adapters (which themselves introduce a lot of hiss)...
      On most modern cars you can skip songs using a button on the steering wheel, and you can fit a lot more songs on a modern phone than you can on a very large stack of tapes so you also avoid the distraction of changing or turning over tapes. Some cars also have a button which invokes voice control on the phone, so you can verbally command it to change song etc.

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    53. Re:Hiss and crackle by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Your tapes and records are in shitty shape if you hear hiss and crackle

      I do not miss the days of having to be super careful removing a record from a sleeve, blowing the dust off it as carefully as possible, being super careful putting it on the turn table, and then, delicately trying to drop the needle on the thing in the one area of the record you're allowed to be slightly rough.

      Tapes... yeah, they're amazing, they hold music perfectly except if you play them. Then if you play them you have something like a 5% chance of hearing a crunching noise, the music slowing down, then stopping. Then 5 minutes of trying to pick the tape out of the rollers near the magnetic head. Hopefully it didn't break. Whether it did or not, the sound quality on that crumpled tape is now... no longer optimal.

      But yes, both vinyl and tape are great at holding pristine, slightly lower than CD for the same mastered recording, recordings, as long as you don't, you know, play them.

      Whereas, yes, you're right, CDs sometimes have bit rot. What is this DRM you speak of? They don't have it on proper audio CDs, and the few attempts there have been to put DRM on CDs didn't work and didn't stop anyone from making bit-for-bit copies. So in practice, there's no DRM.

      --
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    54. Re:Hiss and crackle by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      What, are you unaware of the 192kHz, lossless, 32 bit sampled, audio codec used on YouTube? It's the only way to listen to YouTube, but do make sure your amplifier uses genuine wooden knobs, for the best listening experience of course.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    55. Re:Hiss and crackle by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      analog is for hipsters OR for those who have exceptional analog systems

      And those who find that some of the only decent masters were exclusive to vinyl and tape while the mass produced CD got trashed in the name of loudness.

    56. Re:Hiss and crackle by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Vinyl and film I can understand

      I don't. Vinyl suffers most of the same problems as cassettes - they degrade each time you play them. Don't get me wrong, vinyl is bad but cassettes kick it up a few notches, but essentially normal handling of vinyl's likely to cause damage.

      Film? Mostly a terrible medium. Over time the chemicals degrade and colors start to disappear. You've probably noticed this already with your grandparent's photo collection - many of those "black and white" photos have a lot of red in them, and appear to be over exposed? Well, those ones were actually color. On the moving pictures front, I have 16mm and Super 8 movie projectors, and film to go with them - most of the media I have for both is heavily tinted red. Film also burns, which sucks.

      It's hard to believe, but optical discs, especially after most of the bit rot issues were solved, are probably the best electronic storage mediums we've come up with so far. Which is not good because even those aren't as good (not even in the same ballpark) as dark marks made on acid free paper, and I don't need to tell you how fragile that stuff is. The best we can do is hope we continue to act like monks from the middle ages and keep copying content from one medium to another.

      --
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    57. Re:Hiss and crackle by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      On most modern cars you can skip songs using a button on the steering wheel, and you can fit a lot more songs on a modern phone than you can on a very large stack of tapes so you also avoid the distraction of changing or turning over tapes.

      Great, now instead of going somewhere, I'll be sitting looking over my whole list of a hundred or more songs trying to figure out which song I want to listen to. When I do, I play it, and resume looking at the list for the next song.

      Or I can put a tape in and stop thinking about the song sequence - my choice was already made at home when I took that particular tape to bring to my car.

    58. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so the cd itself isnt the problem - it's how the audio was processed prior to being put onto cd.

      Yes, the way analog sound from the artist/instruments is mangled and compressed before being stored in CDs is likely the culprit. I wonder how a 96kHz sample rate, 24-bit sampled CD without any processing would sound. Probably better than vinyl.

      But, as it is, music from CDs is muddy and distorted compared to vinyl. Until someone investigates this with an open mind, we won't know the exact cause of the differences.

      Here's an example of high quality vinyl recording on youtube. Bet it sounds better than any CD version if you have good headphones or hifi speakers:

      https://www.youtube.com/user/M...

    59. Re:Hiss and crackle by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      A big reason cassette tape is still going is content! There's stuff on tape that's not available on CD. It's that simple.

      Also, magnetic tape is used for computer backup. So no it's not strictly analog. Jackass.

    60. Re:Hiss and crackle by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Exactly get the earlier release.

    61. Re:Hiss and crackle by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      its worse than bit rot. bit rot implies you had once a perfect copy; and in that case, you could have copied it to HD and others for backup.

      vinyl and analog cassette NEVER let you get a perfect copy. each and every time you play it, it gets worse and different (both). can't avoid it unless you optically scan the LP; and no way to avoid degrading tapes (they stretch, have drop-outs, no redundancy, bleed-thru, HF loss, etc).

      I have no idea what you are talking about. I grew up with that stuff, glad its gone, I do audio for a hobby and digital is the only way to go.

      analog is for hipsters OR for those who have exceptional analog systems, and that's really rare, today.

      I imagine 90% of vinyl record sales are to people with beards. And no record player.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    62. Re:Hiss and crackle by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      "Walkman" style

      You have identified the main reason for the continuing existence of cassettes: hipsters need something to play in their ironically retro Sony Walkman.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    63. Re:Hiss and crackle by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      Punch cards do have a lot of downsides, but they are (or can be) an extremely durable storage media. if you made them with archival paper and stored them properly, they could still be viable thousands of years later.

      Granted, you'd need a small warehouse just to store the data for one Blu-Ray DVD, but it's a small price to pay to ensure that your great-great-great grandchildren can watch a high quality copy of the Emoji movie.

    64. Re: Hiss and crackle by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Is that the homeopathy of audio production? Copy from tape to tape to tape to tape to increase the quality?

      --
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    65. Re:Hiss and crackle by mrfaithful · · Score: 1

      I think a large part of it is people just want physical things. They've had nearly 2 decades of digital delivery and they realise they've got nothing tangible. They aren't giving up on digital entirely, they just want to "feel" the thing, put it into a player, move a stylus, clunk a big mechanical play button... And for all the poor sound quality of cassette tapes, is it really worse than spotify?

    66. Re:Hiss and crackle by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

      "They were better than what went before

      Well yeah, cassettes were your only option if you wanted portable music back in the day, but I can't see why they're making a comeback now. Digital media is better in every way, unless you really like tape hiss.

      --
      Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    67. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It may sound like noise to you, but it retains the imprint of the original signal.

    68. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just buy CDs. Digital AND no DRM.

    69. Re:Hiss and crackle by eepok · · Score: 1

      This is not entirely false. My wife and I bought a small suitcase record player and an assortment of non-remastered Christmas music albums in November. There's an authenticity in the imperfections that we both value. The wife is still combing through local record shops trying to find some 1940s big band because she grew up watching that era's musicals.

      The player also has its own Li-on battery & speakers, serves as a Bluetooth speaker, and can play directly from a USB drive. It's a modern, stow-able record player.

    70. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Analog recorders cannot suffer bit rot by definition.

    71. Re:Hiss and crackle by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      Portability, you say?

      I could have sworn, that Reginald, our ridiculously rich neighbor hauled around a trailer on his rig with various orchestras and bands depending on his mood. And for jogging or biking, he used a Radio Flyer wagon to haul around a smaller jazz band or barbershop quartet.

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
    72. Re:Hiss and crackle by jwhyche · · Score: 2

      And for all the poor sound quality of cassette tapes, is it really worse than spotify?

      Well this statement pretty much invalidates the rest of your argument, but I'll bite anyway.

      No, it's not a large part of people wanting physical things. Most people understand the difference between buying something digital and buying vinyl/CD's. Just as most of them understand the issue with buying something with DRM or no DRM. An no, they are not giving up on streaming or even buying mp3 online. Sales of independant artist mp3 from thier own websites are going up and, like it or not, streaming is the future of music.

      There are two kinds of people that buy new vinyl. Millinals with more money than sense, or sometimes no sense and less money, and hippies.

      Hippies I have some sympathy for. Most are trying to relieve some old memories that only the hiss, pop, and poor quality sound that only worn vinyl and a well lit bong can bring to the table. Millinals on the other hand are just stupid about it. They think that vinyl is all cool because its "retro," not realizing that a big vinyl collection is only "cool" to some old ass hippies.

      After a few months most millinals wake up and realize that paying $40 for some rehashed vinyl from Hot Topic isn't worth the cost. The vinyl collection starts to collect dust in the corner then eventually gets donated or tossed in the bin. Hippies on the other hand tend to be smarter about their vinyl collecting. They realize that Hottopic isn't the place to buy old records and instead seek out used record stores and garage sales. Where they can pickup a used vinyl for $5 a record from a used record store, or $5 for some millinals whole vinyl collection at a yard sale.

      Millinals! Keeping hottopic in business and old hippies in music since 1990 something.

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    73. Re: Hiss and crackle by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The tubes act like a worldwide Klipsch horn.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    74. Re: Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The less music you listen to, the better it sounds.

    75. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell me more about this setup where your vinyl player is hooked up to the same set of speakers YouTube's audio is routed to.

      Or are you comparing your dedicated stereo's speakers with your computer speakers? You're not much of an audiophile if you're trying to convince anyone that's fair comparison.

    76. Re:Hiss and crackle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool story bro, unfortunately we're talking about cassettes re-emerging in popularity. Comparing cassettes with "what came before" (in their time) is pointless when the comparison is being made with what's available today. They might've had a good reason for existing in 1982, but not so much 35+ years later.

      > > Tape stretches and breaks for almost no reason.
      > Yeah but it wasn't that bad

      WTF's "not that bad" about tape **breaking**? That means they're no longer usable. At all. What are you saying could be worse for a tape?

    77. Re:Hiss and crackle by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      Cassette tapes? They are the worse medium for music devised by man.

      Really?

      Worse than wax cylinders?!?

    78. Re:Hiss and crackle by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you're using some extremely basic dumbphone that has no capability to create playlists, or to automatically play the next song (or a random one) when the previous one finishes...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    79. Re:Hiss and crackle by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Vinyl and film I can understand, but magnetic medium just doesn't hold up. I don't understand why anybody would want a cassette tape.

      From the music podcasts I listen to dealing with people 20 years younger than myself, it is pretty much just a way to support the artists. They get a physical object for their money which comes with a digital download key that they use. The cassette tape goes on a shelf, never listened to.

  3. Re:Traitor Drumpf must hang! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    I'd wager you could lay off 50% of the entire federal government and nobody would even notice.

  4. Wow... talk about useless data manipulation... by Mnemennth · · Score: 1

    This entire pointless article revolves around "markets" so small compared to the "music industry" as to entirely be composed of "data" within the margin for error which would be discarded anyways. :facepalm:

    mnem
    "It's hard work being this cynical; but I have a lot of Karma to burn off."

  5. Did you know by BLToday · · Score: 3, Funny

    “Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If these trends continues... AAY!"

    1. Re:Did you know by chaotixx · · Score: 1

      Uh, your fish are dead.

  6. Music "Industry" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The music industry is more than just "artists" represented by major labels - special emphasis on "artists" with quotes. If you scroll down to the list, they are music that you've heard countless of times.

    There's just so much more music, compared to the selected few that you hear in mainstream radio. You'd find much more interesting music on college radio, small independent bands and artists that are more bold, more experimental more raw. They perform with more energy/emotion.

    I know of independent artists that were actually selling more CDs in recent years that before. Maybe it's the growth of the band/artists that attributed to the growth, but the demographic listeners tends to be ones that value holding something tangible, and knowing that their purchase supports the artists they love instead of streaming, which pays next to nothing - i.e., hundredths of a cent per stream.

    For about $13 -which is CDBaby's suggested default price, you'd get a CD shipped to you. Back in the day (say 90s) CDs were about the same, maybe a few dollars more. If you account for inflation, owning CDs actually don't cost much.

  7. I remember the old days by MpVpRb · · Score: 1

    Audio reproduction started out shitty and steadily improved
    Each advance was a real technological advancement that made music sound better
    Then, everything changed
    People started to value convenience over quality. MP3s on shitty earbuds became the standard
    Others were seduced by nostalgia for old, crappy sounding media
    Hopefully, people of the future will continue the quest for audio quality

    1. Re:I remember the old days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People started to value convenience over quality. MP3s on shitty earbuds became the standard

      In fairness, low-grade cassettes played on cheap, shitty Walkman knock-offs using horrible, cheap foam-covered headphones were the point where convenience overcame quality. Early MP3s were, of course, horribly low quality, but they were just a logical successor to the low quality portable cassette players.

    2. Re:I remember the old days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sony Walkman itself really only supported IEC Type 1 tape. So did many of the similar designs by other manufacturers (e.g., Aiwa, Sanyo). No such buttons or implied capability for IEC Type II and especially not Metal tape. Same with most portable "boom boxes" or smaller form factor "bookshelf stereos". Home tape decks with capabilities for varying quality tapes built into a single tape head had specific button modes for Normal (Type 1), Chromium Oxide (CrO2, Type II), and Metal type tapes. That said, I never once actually saw Metal tape for sale, maybe only in the recording studios as master tape? Standard store bought C60, C90, or the rarer C120 was generally IEC Type 1, it was harder to find Type II and provided no benefit in a Type I only tape player. No special markings on "record store" album cassettes or cassette singles meant they were probably still pre-recorded IEC Type 1. It make sense to choose Type I for universal playback compatibility even if Type II had lesser bias hiss in suppported equipment.

    3. Re:I remember the old days by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

      You forgot how crappy sound systems were in the old days. Today even cheap digital systems can often outperform the best equipment in an old time studio. Now when you get to analog components you might have a point, although there have been huge advances there too.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    4. Re:I remember the old days by dwywit · · Score: 2

      "Today even cheap digital systems can often outperform the best equipment in an old time studio"

      Err, no. You're quite wrong, there.

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    5. Re:I remember the old days by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You forgot how crappy sound systems were in the old days. Today even cheap digital systems can often outperform the best equipment in an old time studio.

      But especially hi-fi systems and speakers. Those things were just not very good.

      A modern cheapass class D amp outperforms probably 99% of systems if not more from that era. It's hard to build high power analog with high linearity, low crssover low distortion etc. Like really hard.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    6. Re:I remember the old days by _merlin · · Score: 1

      But it's well-established. Look at something basic like a Yamaha A-S301. A class D amp isn't going to get close to that. But that's something recent. What if you go back 20 years? A Yamaha AX-392 from 20 years ago doesn't perform as well as the A-S301, but it's still going to beat a class D amp. Going back further, anything from Pioneer, Yamaha or Sony from the "power wars" in the '80s is going to outperform a class D amp, and a lot of cheaper home theater amps as well (jamming a lot of amps into one box means they're all going to be compromised). We've got over 30 years of knowing how to build a good amp.

    7. Re: I remember the old days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All you had to do to get metal tapes was to go to a record store. Mine had a complete selection of Denon. But who wanted to pay for the things?

    8. Re: I remember the old days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Itâ(TM)s audio ffs, not millimeter wave microwave. Designing good audio circuits for audio is trivial.

    9. Re:I remember the old days by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      People started to value convenience over quality. MP3s on shitty earbuds became the standard

      Sorry but by the time this started happening music was compress, manufactured and generally devoid of any quality or dynamic range. People moved to convenience because they found it didn't make shit sound any worse than it already did.

      But let's face it, we all know the only real way to get good sound it to play Guitar Hero: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    10. Re:I remember the old days by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      A modern cheapass class D amp outperforms probably 99% of systems if not more from that era.

      If by 99% you mean 99% of produce units then I agree. Even in the old days garbage systems existed. If you mean 99% of models designed you would be very VERY wrong. Cheaparse class D has nothing on even midrange amplifiers from the 80s.

      It's hard to build high power analog with high linearity, low crssover low distortion etc. Like really hard.

      No it's really easy. Compared to a class D amplifier it is incredibly trivial by comparison. The problem was Class-A amplifiers were inefficient and thus good ones at any considerable power doubled as space heaters and served to anchor the house to the ground during a hurricane.

      Now making a classic amplifier like you described that fits in the palm of your hand, THAT is hard. However the reality is people didn't need high power. Not in the past, not now. The fascination with marketing power was a curious quirk and some of the best amplifiers every released fall in the sub 100W category which was more than enough to make the neighbours call the police on you.

    11. Re:I remember the old days by bjb_admin · · Score: 1

      I also found that the portable players rarely ever had Dolby B (or even better C) which would really help with hiss. I managed to find a Dolby B, Chrome tape compatible unit back in the 80s which I used until it was stolen.

    12. Re:I remember the old days by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      If by 99% you mean 99% of produce units then I agree. Even in the old days garbage systems existed.

      Of course and a modern low end system will knock the old ones into a cocked hat.

      Cheaparse class D has nothing on even midrange amplifiers from the 80s.

      Well I guess it depends how cheap is cheap and how midrange is midrange. You can get something much, much cheaper now wich will easily perform as well.

      No it's really easy.

      No it's really not.

      Compared to a class D amplifier it is incredibly trivial by comparison.

      What? No. You can buy Class D chips off the shelf. To "design2 a class D amp, you slap one on the board. You don't have to worry about PSR because it does that. You don't even have to worry about the signal level analog stuff because it's digital in. Pick one to match thee specs. The folks at Texas and Linear and a bunch of Chinese manufacturers actually know their stuff pretty well.

      There's no need to do faffrey with heatsinks, low noise fans, analog signal levels, noise floors and etc. Someone has already done all that hard work and put it in a chip. You don't need to make a high power low ripple PSU because you're drawing less power and the chips do supply rejection for you.

      Excluding the PSU, it's one chip and a few passives. It doesn't get much easier.

      And if you really wanted to make one yourself? Just buy a small Coretx-M0 with an I2S bus and bitbang the PWM or sigma-delta directly and hook 5 GPIOs to 4 power MOSFETS. DPAK and a nice ground plane will suffice for thermals. Modern MOSFETS are fucking incredible.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    13. Re:I remember the old days by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Keep the class A turned up to 11 and they make no more heat than any other amp.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    14. Re:I remember the old days by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      No it's really not.

      Yes it is. Designing what you suggested is literally something every electrical engineer needs to do as part of their degree, often it's a simple second year course before you get into the complicated nature of switching characteristics (such as class-D amplifiers) that are reserved for advanced parts of the degree.

      What? No. You can buy Class D chips off the shelf.

      Oh I thought you were designing amplifiers. I didn't know you thought they magically appeared. Speaking of, you can happily buy normal linear amplifiers off the shelf as well, throw a MOSFET on the output along with a current source, apply feedback over the entire thing and presto, even with your "you can buy it off the shelf" you're still simpler and more trivial than doing anything Class D.

      The folks at Texas and Linear and a bunch of Chinese manufacturers actually know their stuff pretty well.

      Oh I agree. But I'm not sure you know the heritage or what the "Linear" part of Linear semiconductors actually refers to.

      There's no need to do faffrey with heatsinks

      Doing a heatsink calculation is easier than solving ohms law, but then your original requirement didn't say I wasn't allowed to use heatsinks, that's moving the goalposts.

      low noise fans

      You've done it wrong.

      Excluding the PSU, it's one chip and a few passives.

      You didn't design a class-D amplifier. You bought one off the shelf. You can do the same with with any other.

      Just buy a small Coretx-M0 with an I2S bus and bitbang the PWM or sigma-delta directly and hook 5 GPIOs to 4 power MOSFETS.

      Holy crap that's complicated. No thanks. Analogue is much easier, especially when you have modern MOSFETs which you can slap a long tail paid on the input, throw a CCS on the output and a small voltage bias in between and achieve exactly what you want.

      See easy! Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean it isn't trivial.

    15. Re:I remember the old days by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Keep the class A turned up to 11 and they make no more heat than any other amp.

      If you want to get technical at the point where they make no more heat than any other amp they would no longer be Class A ;-)

      Mind you, your bleeding ears won't care about the sudden increase in distortion as you drop into Class B.

    16. Re:I remember the old days by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Yes it is. Designing what you suggested is literally something every electrical engineer needs to do as part of their degree, often it's a simple second year course before you get into the complicated nature of switching characteristics (such as class-D amplifiers) that are reserved for advanced parts of the degree.

      You're confusing a bunch of things. It's easy to design a class A amplifier of some sort. The entire topic of the conversation is about high quality audio power amplifiers. A BJT a and a couple of resistors make a class A amp. It is not however simple or easy to design a high quality audio amplifier like that.

      It's laughable that you think that because switching can be complex and reserved for the later part of a degree that it's complex to use. Many people can buy an arduino and a motor shiled of some sort and drive motors at variable speeds. You don't need to be in an EE degree to do that.

      Let me reiterate since you missed it first time: to make a class D audio amp, you buy a class D audio amp chip, and stick it to a board. Wire up the output pins to your speakers. Wire the input pins to your audio source. Wire up the power supply to the power supply. Scatter passives around according to the datasheet. Done.

      Maybe an Atmel chip of some sort if you want to poke at the I2C bus. Maybe not. Depends on the chip you buy.

      Oh I agree. But I'm not sure you know the heritage or what the "Linear" part of Linear semiconductors actually refers to.

      Completely irrelevant.

      Doing a heatsink calculation is easier than solving ohms law, but then your original requirement didn't say I wasn't allowed to use heatsinks, that's moving the goalposts.

      YOU said it was simple, so I'm not moving the goalposts. Now you're saying you need to do faffing with heatsinks and calculations with them and you say that's easier that shoving a COTS class D chip on a board? A 30W class D AMP will dissipate less than 2 Watts at most, little enough that you can simply sink it into the board. With a class A you're looking at sinking maybe 90W which is much less trivial.

      So sure you can use a heatsink, neither of us claimed it was out of the question but do not deny that using one is harder than not doing so.

      You've done it wrong.

      I guess it isn't easy then! Easy means little room to make it wrong. You can shift 90W without fans but that's getting into a non trivial design. We could pick a different part of the power envelope if you prefer.

      You didn't design a class-D amplifier. You bought one off the shelf. You can do the same with with any other.

      Whoever said from scratch? Now you're moving the goalposts. We were talking about products not some idealised design exercise, the products in question being audio amplifiers. You don't make a product, especially a low cost one, these days by designing everything completely from scratch.

      If you're going to build and sell an audio amp, chances are you'll pick a class D chip off the shelf and slap it on a board. Depending on the chip, that will give you anything form decent performance to actually really good performance and likely very much better than anything at even 5x the prrice from before really good, cheap class D chips came off the lines.

      Just buy a small Coretx-M0 with an I2S bus and bitbang the PWM or sigma-delta directly and hook 5 GPIOs to 4 power MOSFETS.

      No, old man, no it's not. But it's what you might do if you wanted to do it by hand rather than simply get a chip like a normal engineer.

      See easy! Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean it isn't trivial.

      Quite. You don't realise how easy it is, so you assume it's hard because you don't understand it. A lot of perfectly good electrical engineering these days is coupling together digital blocks on an I2C or SPI bus. It lacks a certain something perhaps, but the parts ar of amazing spec and it's really fast to design not to mention cheap to make.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    17. Re:I remember the old days by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I'm not confusing anything. Create a simple Class-A amp, parallel the output stages, apply global feedback and you do have high quality. I don't know why you think it needs to be complex. Designing a power amplifier capable of driving loads of current into 4ohm with low THD and ~100MHz bandwidth is *trivial*. You're making this something it's not.

      It's laughable that you think that because switching can be complex and reserved for the later part of a degree that it's complex to use.

      I didn't say it's complex because it's reserved for a later part of the degree. It's complex because it's complex. The signal path is complex the design is complex. Just because you outsourced the design effort to TI doesn't make it any less complex. Someone still designed a complicated modulation scheme with feedback and filtering that puts even the most complicated amplifier impedance interactions to shame.

      Whoever said from scratch?

      I've heard of moving goalposts. But you could at least keep them in the same stadium.

      Quite. You don't realise how easy it is

      Oh no I do. You don't realise just how difficult it is to make a switching system work well across the audio bandwidth. Don't worry though, actual high end companies know which is why they design a unique amplifier for each driver on their speakers with different switching characteristics, different filtering, different feedback loops etc. The fact that you think Class-D is easy while Class-A is difficult to make sound good just shows you have no clue what so ever about Audio design.

      You think 4-6 discrete components will give you a high linearity amp?

      I didn't say 4-6 discrete components. In fact there's more components than that in just a long-tailed pair input stage, and more in a decent CCS. It's quite clear you have no idea what you're talking about if you somehow think I said 4-6 component, or for some reason think that what I listed isn't the fundamental setup of every amplifier even you fancy $15k monoblocks.

      You also forgot your heatsinks

      I did nothing of the sort. You never specified small or cool in your original design criteria.

      and haven't paid any attention to avoid coupling of noise into the analogue signal

      I don't think you know what that means, and if you're talking about high PSRR typical designs based on the blocks I mentioned will quite happily have >90dB PSRR which is also why when you rip apart a Class A amplifier you won't find a voltage regulator anywhere. A simple CRC filter and the resulting system noise is happily down in the irrelevant regime.

      I did. And my output is much more linear than yours.

      hahahhahaahah. Wonderful. A claim based on no knowledge what so ever.

      Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to Bestbuy to "design myself" an amplifier.

    18. Re:I remember the old days by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I've heard of moving goalposts. But you could at least keep them in the same stadium.

      Quite, so I'd appreciate it if you came back to the same stadium that I started it. It's hilarious that you're accusing me of moving the goalposts when you're the one banging on about designing from scratch. Here's a very brief summary of the post histrory:

      What I originally said was this:

      A modern cheapass class D amp outperforms probably 99% of systems if not more from that era.

      in the context of the comment:

      You forgot how crappy sound systems were in the old days.

      Now you're insisting that we can only discuss designing amplifiers entirely from scratch? WTF how on earth does that have any bearing on sound systems. A clue: it doesn't. This whole "desgning from scratch" thing is something you brought to the thread. If you're building a sound system and designing everything from scratch the chances are you're doing it wrong.

      And speaking of moving the goalposts:

      Don't worry though, actual high end companies know which is why they design a unique amplifier for each driver on their speakers with different switching characteristics, different filtering, different feedback loops etc.

      How is restricting the discussion to only the very highest of the high end remorely relevant to my original statement about the 99% of systems?

      Basically you've taken a of mine about sound common systems, disagreed and to "win", you're sticking to designing only the very highest end systems from discretes. In other words the only arguments you can make are utterly irrelevant to my original claim.

      I didn't say 4-6 discrete components.

      You said "simple". You semeed to say shoving a long tailed pair on the input to biased complementary MOSFETs on the output. You can do tht crapily in 4-6 components. But you said simply, right? You kept on saying it, in fact, so I assumed you meant it. To build a good analogue amp is as you're demonstrating, not simple.

      In fact there's more components than that in just a long-tailed pair input stage, and more in a decent CCS. It's quite clear you have no idea what you're talking about if you somehow think I said 4-6 component, or for some reason think that what I listed isn't the fundamental setup of every amplifier even you fancy $15k monoblocks.

      Shows how little you know if you think it's fundamental to every amp. You can go from I2S to PWM or delta-sigma without every touching an analogue component. Why pick up noise in an analogue state when you can go digital right to the filter just before the speaker?

      I did nothing of the sort. You never specified small or cool in your original design criteria.

      Now you're just desparate. I did not specify small or cool, but if you're building a class A, then it's so inefficient that you have to put the heat somewhere. And you forgot to talk about the heatsinks which YOU will need in order for your design to work without literally burning itself up.

      But apparently all this is "simple" while a software sigma-selta modulator is complex. Right-o

      I don't think you know what that means, and if you're talking about high PSRR typical designs based on the blocks I mentioned will quite happily have >90dB PSRR which is also why when you rip apart a Class A amplifier you won't find a voltage regulator anywhere. A simple CRC filter and the resulting system noise is happily down in the irrelevant regime.

      Now you need to design a CRC filter o the PSU? Your simple design is getting really rather complex, I must say. I think I'll stick with a chip from TI.

      Oh no I do. You don't realise just how difficult it is to make a switching system work well across the audio bandwidth.

      3HMz is sufficient. That's not especially onerous. It's not like youre into transmission lines, ferrite magic and 4 terminal transistors.

      Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to Bestbuy to "design myself" an amplifier.

      If you're designing an amp from discretes when one from best buy meets your customer's spec then you're doing a crappy job as an engineer.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  8. My investment portfolio by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    I should have invested in mustache wax, fair-trade coffee, and LPs.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  9. Why? by AndyKron · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You can also buy "raw water" for $20 a gallon, but that doesn't mean it's better. Old records suck and cassettes are even worse. Tube amps suck too. I've lived with all of them. It's cool for a retro experience, but that's about it.

    1. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A good tube amplifier should probably sound the same as a good amplifier using field-effect transistors. Honestly any amplifier of any kind that doesn't sound the same as the others is probably not a good amplifier.

      Speakers and headphones (microphones too) all perform so badly that an amplifier would need to be unusually bad to hear any difference other than the noise floor.

    2. Re:Why? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      A computer company can "curated platform" of digital music it sold and later finds sinful for political reasons.
      Having music digitally on a computer is at the whim of a computer brand, DRM and politics.
      Cassette, vinyl, CD, DVD decades later is still good news for fans.
      Even fans may not be able to buy/find early limited music DVD's decades later.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:Why? by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

      A good tube amplifier should probably sound the same as a good amplifier using field-effect transistors.

      You know that the electrodes in tubes get contaminated and evaporate, right? And no two tubes respond exactly the same. It is possible that the nonlinearities sound good to your ears, or you have a whole lot of unintended low pass filtering built into your tube amp, plus some unintended resonances, and you kind of like the modified product. I on the other hand, prefer to hear sound reproduced exactly as it was recorded.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    4. Re:Why? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You know that the electrodes in tubes get contaminated and evaporate, right? And no two tubes respond exactly the same.

      No two FETs respond the same, either. The closest you get is the matched pair discretes you get on the input stages of high end measurement equipment. The good amplifiers all used a high gain configuration with negative feedback so the response is as linear as you can get.

      It is possible that the nonlinearities sound good to your ears, or you have a whole lot of unintended low pass filtering built into your tube amp, plus some unintended resonances, and you kind of like the modified product.

      Yep that's basically the tube sound.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:Why? by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      A good tube amplifier should probably sound the same as a good amplifier using field-effect transistors. Honestly any amplifier of any kind that doesn't sound the same as the others is probably not a good amplifier.

      Guitar amps would be the exception.
      But I don't really consider them as amplifiers, more like musical instruments.

    6. Re:Why? by turp182 · · Score: 1

      Marshall stack tube amps and speakers never sucked, even a 2x12 setup.

      They defined the sound of guitars from the 70s through the 90s.

      Ah the memories, of my hearing...

      We were playing with an early 90s Boss distortion pedal this weekend, it was fun to hook up the electric/acoustic to (and the bass).

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
    7. Re:Why? by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      You have no idea what you're talking about. Can you elaborate on "electrodes" being "contaminated"? Are you referring to cathode poisoning? That only happens in circuits where the tube is in cutoff for extended periods (like in digital circuits). Also extending your logic, no two opamps respond exactly the same either. How low in ppm do you want to get here?

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    8. Re:Why? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You can also buy "raw water" for $20 a gallon, but that doesn't mean it's better.

      Better than what? "better" is a comparative term. You need to compare it to something else. RAW water isn't good for you to drink, but as someone who has just recovered from a gut infection from a trip to a 3rd world country I would have greatly appreciated having RAW water instead of whatever was used to wash or clean the things I ate that got me sick.

      Records suck compared to CD. Technically they do in every way. However we have a lot of evidence that vinyl goes through a different mastering process than a traditional CD, and in this process it can result in a superior sound and thus in specific circumstances be "better". Not better technically, but better in the only way that matters.

    9. Re:Why? by ichimunki · · Score: 1

      Having listened to only digital music stored in computer files for about a decade or so now, I can tell you without doubt that I have no concerns whatsoever that my "computer brand" is going to interfere with my ongoing access to the music files I have. They are largely encoded in a format that isn't even encumbered by patent anymore, let alone intrinsic DRM. Exact copies of the files are stored offline in spare HDs and online in "cloud" backup services.

      I'm sure there are streaming services that will rent you music that has DRM to prevent easy ripping of the streams... but I guess if I'm going to pay for music, I'll stick to buying no-DRM, available-offline MP3s. Anyway, you really should compare streaming services with radio/broadcast, not with buying physical media.

      Compare my digital files to the cassettes, vinyl, and CDs I own which are single point of failure and are probably degrading or warping as we speak. And if the house burns down, bye bye physical media... but the digital files are safe in TWO separate offsite locations at minimal cost.

      --
      I do not have a signature
    10. Re:Why? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      A tube is inherently linear in its operating range. Semiconductors are not.

      The key word is 'heterodyne'. Amplifiers build from linear components don't need to filter those out. Which is what makes tube amps _potentially_ better. Devil is in the details.

      Have an EE explain.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  10. Always an idiot who doesnt want to get vaccinated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just like there is always an idiot who thinks its smarter to have a vinyl or a cassette.

    I guess, if you like frisbees and using that good ole fashion walkman; but I'll pass. I prefer FLACs and ripping my music straight from streams. kthx tho

  11. Come on you lot, do your bit by youngone · · Score: 1

    Didn't I read that home taping was killing music?
    That was years ago, and the awful rubbish still hasn't gone away yet.
    Seriously guys, get your acts together.

  12. Mindfulness ,doing something with purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Perhaps kids are learning that listening to an album is pretty damned awesome.

    1. Re:Mindfulness ,doing something with purpose by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2, Funny

      Perhaps kids are learning that listening to an album is pretty damned awesome.

      No, you remember that in 1973 it was pretty damned awesome to be young and in the arms of your old girlfriend as you listened to that album, baked on whatever pills you had bought in the street that morning.

      There is no way your grandkids will ever be able to reproduce that experience. They are visiting you at Retirecrest listening to the album through your carefully coddled and patched McIntosh amp, but all they see is a drooling old guy with a recording that hisses and pops. That 1973 experience was yours and yours alone.

    2. Re:Mindfulness ,doing something with purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is true and depressing :(

    3. Re: Mindfulness ,doing something with purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There there :(

    4. Re:Mindfulness ,doing something with purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly the same with Space Nuttery. That 1973 novel with the aliens and their omnipotent technology was not a prediction for the future, it was just a daydream. Talking about colonizing space today and all we see is a drooling old guy talking about 1960s space fantasies.

    5. Re:Mindfulness ,doing something with purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I listen to you and all I hear is an unimaginative old fart that thinks clearly possible dreams like colonizing space are impossible.

  13. There is in truth much beauty by Excelcia · · Score: 2

    Cassette tape, I would have to agree with you there. There is no real redeeming feature to cassette besides nostalgia. But vinyl, well, there is another story.

    Take good care of your albums and they will reward you with rich, warm, pop-free sound for a lifetime. Eventually some dust gets on them, either a fine layer of white glue or some good light cleaners, or both will take care of that. I have a 1963 Philips Capella Reverbio B7X43A, one of the last tube radios and one of the only tube radios to have FM stereo reception in addition to stereo on the line in. I have enough spare tubes to last a lifetime, and when my turntable plays through it it's like a spiritual experience. The warmth and beauty of that has to be experienced. And sure, I've rigged it for bluetooth. Respectfully, though, because there is no way I will make any permanent mods to this work of art. But still I can play my phone through it. And, like everyone else, I'll pump MP3s (or preferably OGGs) through it, because perceptual compression really is good technology and while you are listening to a bunch of MP3's then at the time it seems good enough. When you are munching on popcorn, you hardly worry that it's not prime rib.

    But I would be devastated if I had to munch popcorn for the rest of my life. A direct-to-vinyl recording on my turntable put through my tube sound system is a perfectly cooked prime rib dinner with delicate au jus and a fine wine. It's an experience. Bach's Little Fugue in G Minor done this way still makes my heart beat faster.

    1. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I 100% guarantee that if I took a high fidelity digital recording, and pressed it to vinyl, you'd never know the difference.

    2. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Excelcia · · Score: 2

      With a sufficiently high sampling rate and a sufficient number of bits per sample, you'd might be right. Though there are still ways to tell the difference, especially on tracks that have any waveform that are close to a fundamental harmonic of the sampling rate. You can actually hear the sampling beat frequencies injected into the music and distortion. At those harmonics, sine waves of certain frequencies can be sampled into square waves. Square waves are a mix of a large number of harmonics, so overall it sounds like someone is running a ring modulator on the sound as those frequencies go in and out of phase with the sampling rate. But at extremely high sampling rates, you're right, it may be impossible to tell the difference.

      At the current standard of 48KHz, where at the upper frequencies you are getting 2-4 samples per wavelength, I guarantee you that you're 100% wrong. I can tell the difference between a direct-to-vinyl analog recording and a digital one with an accuracy approaching unity and I'm not the only one. For those with a good ear, it's like the audible difference between artificial vanilla and natural vanilla (incidentally, did you know that "vanilla" only became a synonym for "plain" after the invention of artificial vanilla?).

    3. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Tough+Love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      there are still ways to tell the difference, especially on tracks that have any waveform that are close to a fundamental harmonic of the sampling rate. You can actually hear the sampling beat frequencies injected into the music and distortion

      So you have not heard of Nyquist frequency or sinc filtering. If you can actually hear beat frequencies than your hardware (software?) is misdesigned. It can be mathematically proven that you can't hear such beat frequencies in a properly engineered system. Of course I realize I am telling this to someone who *believes* in vinyl, so it probably fell on deaf ears.

      Anyway, I can guarantee that you are wrong about the other guy being wrong. This is science.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    4. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sufficient bit depth is 16 bits and sampling rate 44. 1kHz. Time and again people have been shown not to be able to distinguish between 16 and 24 bits or 44.1 or 96kHz. Correctly mastered, a CD has better S/N ratio than vinyl, so if you prefer a well mastered record over a well mastered CD then you prefer a less pristine sound. And that's fine, as you could set up a Raspberry Pi to run a CD through to add some distortion.

    5. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P. S. The ultimate test is actually to take a well mastered vinyl record, record it, and burn that to CD, as that will include the distortions that vinyl has. I bet $100 that you cannot, in a double blind trial, assuming the recording was done correctly, you cannot tell the difference.

    6. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Anyway, I can guarantee that you are wrong about the other guy being wrong. This is science.

      Perhaps, but audiophiles arguing over meaningless specifications long predates the digital era. Science and facts never stopped a good measurebation session.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    7. Re: There is in truth much beauty by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      That's not how digital sampling works. Not at all. Those "square waves" you see are not square waves, they are a defect in the way your computer software displays the waveform on screen.

      This video explains it in detail: https://youtu.be/cIQ9IXSUzuM

      TL;DW is that a "square wave" at 2 samples per wavelength comes out as a perfect sine wave at half the sampling frequency, also known as he Nyquist frequency.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Excelcia · · Score: 1

      That's exactly how digital sampling works. It's just not the apparent way it worked in that video because he took a single simple sine wave. It reproduced on the other side because the D->A in question plotted a smooth curve through all the sampled points. Fair enough, this is one way to do D->A. But now repeat the gentleman's experiment but with the input as a square wave. At many samples per frequency, the square wave will be approximated. The higher you get to that "half the sampling frequency", with the same D->A that was used in the video, the closer the input square wave will start to produce an output sine wave. Which means you are losing all the harmonics.

      Also, the issue with beat frequencies near but not on a fundamental harmonic of the sampling frequency are not addressed in that video at all. This is a real effect and one you can see on your computer. Pump out a square wave from a function generator at 11995 Hz and record it through your computer sampling at 48 KHz, or output a 11023 Hz signal recorded at 44.1 KHz. Take the recording and look at it on Audacity and you'll see the harmonic distortion and the sampling beat. Play the recording and you'll hear it.

      This is why people can hear the difference. Complex sound gets smoothed out. Beat frequencies and harmonic distortion gets added.

    9. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But now repeat the gentleman's experiment but with the input as a square wave. At many samples per frequency, the square wave will be approximated. The higher you get to that "half the sampling frequency", with the same D->A that was used in the video, the closer the input square wave will start to produce an output sine wave. Which means you are losing all the harmonics.

      Dude,did you even watch the fuckin' video??

    10. Re: There is in truth much beauty by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It can't work that way in any properly designed system, because a waveform more square than the sinewave would exceed the limits of the low pass filter. In practice the filters are imperfect of course, but any decent one won't look much different.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    11. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know you can't tell a 10kHz sine wave from a 10kHz square wave anyway, right?

      Square waves contain only odd harmonics. The next audible harmonic of a 10kHz square wave is at 30kHz, way beyond your hearing range.

      The highest-frequency square wave that will sound something like a square wave will be around 7kHz and that's pushing it.

    12. Re: There is in truth much beauty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Complex sound gets smoothed out.

      Not if the signal doesn't contain any energy above 20kHz. All that gets "smoothed out" is harmonics you can't hear anyway. That's what band-limiting is.

  14. Cassettes? Really? by mark-t · · Score: 2

    The *only* advantage that cassettes *ever* had over vinyl is that they were more portable... but you took a very discernible loss in quality as a price for that convenience.

    Today, you can store countless songs on a portable music player no larger than a single cassette, and at *VASTLY* higher quality than cassettes themselves are capable of. Vinyl, at least, has a redeeming characteristic over digital storage in that it is at least pure analog, and perhaps for some people, it might carry that appeal. Certainly there is no significant lack of quality in vinyl, at least not until the needle has worn the record down through very extensive repeated playing. But cassettes, while also analog, are so far inferior in quality to even today's lossy mp3 sound storage, that there is no reason I can imagine that people today would actually still prefer them.

  15. No DRM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is because there is no DRM locking those media?

    CYA

  16. People don't understand what digital music is by Solandri · · Score: 5, Informative

    The problem is that people think digital results in a different waveform than the original analog waveform. They can't understand how you can go from a stairstep digital signal to a smooth analog signal, and incorrectly conclude that something must be lost when you store music digitally. Yes something is lost, but it's only frequencies higher than Nyquist - half the sampling frequency, which is carefully chosen so the only frequencies lost are those beyond your hearing range (and weren't captured in the original analog recording anyway).

    Monty Montgomery demonstrated this in a video using an analog wave generator, an analog spectrum analyzer, an analog oscilliscope, and A/D and D/A converters. At 20 kHz, the stairstep digital waveform is an awful mess, but after conversion back to analog it's still a perfectly smooth sine wave.

    The mistake people make is thinking that the digital signal is a series of stairsteps. It's not stairsteps, it's just the corners of each stairstep. The sound's value is only defined at each corner. In between the corners, it's undefined. And it turns out that there is only one analog waveform which can be drawn through every one of those corners, yet contain no frequencies higher than Nyquist. So the digital sample of the waveform can perfectly recreate the original analog waveform (within the chose frequency limit).

    Vinyl is the music equivalent of homeopathy.

    1. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by imnotanumber · · Score: 5, Funny

      Vinyl is the music equivalent of homeopathy.

      Well. Not quite... homeopathy would be a track with only the cracks and other noises and then you would imagine that the music is playing.

    2. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Vinyl is the music equivalent of homeopathy.

      Or the data processing equivalent of typewriters.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    3. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Heavy Metal style music disproves the Nyquist stuff elegantly. Just because you can't hear it distinctly, doesn't mean it wasn't part of the overall sound quality. Overtones, harmonics, etc. Look, use a Metallica album on tape (or your favorite high volume/distortion using metal band). Listen to it. Use in the same album on CD. The distorted guitars sound cleaner, thinner, some of the aggressive quality has been thinned out and cleaned away. At the same time, the digital version causes ear fatigue for long term high volume listening. The cassette can be listened to at a maximum volume before clipping occurs without such ear fatigue. 16-bit/44 kHz is a brick wall quality to a CD (even those mastered at 24-bit before being pressed to CD), and all parts of the waveform ultimately have to be discrete values.

      Then there's any interpolation or lack of interpolation by a Digital to Audio Converter... pure digital is just a bitstream and has to be converted to audio. Oversampling vs. something as cheap as a 1-bit DAC.

      Digital was best for electronic music that used those types of waveforms anyway. No need to CONVERT what is already a sine, sawtooth, square, etc. wave except for multiple layers and overtones... and the high frequency response of digital lets those analog dial high frequency effects of combining Q with Resonance sound up to the maximum capabilities of the headphones or speakers.

    4. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Vinyl is the music equivalent of homeopathy.

      Well. Not quite... homeopathy would be a track with only the cracks and other noises and then you would imagine that the music is playing.

      So 4'33" then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3

    5. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by 4wdloop · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, you're up to something but you're barking the wrong tree. It is not magic, but for some a highly sophisticated technology is indistinguishable from magic.

      The 'digital' part of the audio systems has nothing to do with quality, and the Solandri's description is rather accurate, if not too technical for slash dot. In fact analog audio systems have rather limited frequency range and dynamic range, much more so than digital ones. Yes overdriven digital system will create nasty artifacts while analog ones would distort like heavy metal amps...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      However, usually in customer digital systems the compression of audio is removing a lot of information from the original and sometimes also introduces audible artifacts.

      So it's not 'digital' that evil but 'mp3'.

      --
      4wdloop
    6. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      No, you idiot. Literally everything you can hear can be represented digitally, all the audible overtones, harmonics, etc. You ears are not oscilloscopes. The filter that limits the bandwidth and the transfer to the frequency domain happens before the sound reaches a single neuron. Analog audio types are the anti-vaxxers of the audio world.

    7. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Tough+Love · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      If you're a heavy metal fan you probably can't hear much of anything anyway, so no worries.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    8. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by dwywit · · Score: 1

      "So it's not 'digital' that evil but 'mp3'."

      Hear, hear!

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    9. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Digital was best for electronic music that used those types of waveforms anyway. No need to CONVERT what is already a sine, sawtooth, square, etc. wave except for multiple layers and overtones...

      The shape of the input signal is irrelevant. ALL audio waveforms can be represented equally well with a digital signal, as long as you sample over 2x the highest frequency in the signal.

      Fourier proved that the complex waveform and the additive mix of component sine waves are mathematically equivalent, i.e. time domain and frequency domain are two different ways of representing the EXACT SAME signal.

      You REALLY need to watch Monty's Digital Show & Tell video!

    10. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have a look at these vintage speakers, among any others: Pioneer CS-88A. They were around with the earlier tube based receivers with integrated pre and main amps (e.g., Pioneer SX6000 series), and they aren't crap speakers.

      https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/pioneer/cs-88a.shtml

      Take the grills off and see the individual drivers. Even if the mids are starting to crack in the surrounds, it does not destroy the midrange response. Look at specs of the frequency response, even the power handling. You almost don't need a subwoofer with these speakers if they will hit down to 25 Hz, though I wouldn't overstress them for home theater usage rather than musical usage. And, if the mids and highs are too muted to the listener when running the speakers flat (as opposed to using tone controls or an equalizer), there is even a two way active crossover on the back of each speaker that allows for High Decrease/Norm/Increase and Mid Decrease/Norm/Increase.

      Punchy low bass is possible for those songs that have it, but it doesn't sound boomy or late like some ported speakers because they are sealed. Mids and highs are not fatiguing. That's using them as floor speakers, even though they aren't tower speakers, and a good strong speaker stand could get them off the floor for even better sound.

    11. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, my Metallica tape has the SECRET SAUCE, man!
      Nothing will ever beat it, EVAR!!

    12. Re: People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Black album sounds fucked on all mediums at high frequencies. Justice too.

    13. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by DrXym · · Score: 1

      The really stupid part is that all modern vinyl and cassettes would be produced from digital masters anyway, but not before undergoing range compression for noise reduction and to stop records skipping.

    14. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Antialias. If you do not have a very good interpolation mechanism you will never get the exact same waveform output after an analog (source) -> digital (storage) -> analog (reproduction) conversion.

    15. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      ... At the same time, the digital version causes ear fatigue for long term high volume listening. The cassette can be listened to at a maximum volume before clipping occurs without such ear fatigue....

      Nah, pretty sure that's just metallica.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    16. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Great, but the problem with all this is that it assumes that the limit to human hearing is 20kHz.

      Now you will say well yes it is, and a standard hearing test will agree. However a standard hearing test uses single frequencies, something no human ear heard till the invention of the tuning fork in 1711.

      So given the loss of harmonics to primary frequencies that can be heard, it is entirely possible that 20kHz is not enough.

      However given that compact cassettes roll off around 15kHz and vinyl is similar to a CD it's all bollocks.

      What I can say is that the quality that you can achieve today with a comparatively cheap system, blows away anything using either a turntable or compact cassettes even today. Anyone with a nostaglia for the hiss, cracks, rumble and wow/flutter is a deranged imbecile.

    17. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Nyquist's theorem only deals with the sampling rate, and assumes a few idealizations about the other factors. For starters, sampling at 16 bits means you only have 65536 discrete signal levels, so you get quantization noise. It's technically worse than analog noise as it's not random. Also, Nyquist assumes pointlike sampling, whereas real sampling always integrates over some finite time.

      Of course, engineers know these things and take them into account. But Nyquist alone doesn't explain why you should record at 24 bits instead of 16 or 8.

      BTW, you can also reduce quantization noise by using higher sampling rates: doubling the rate gives you effectively one more bit of resolution. This is why some systems can be 1-bit with insanely high sampling rates.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    18. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Zobeid · · Score: 1

      Your observations are right, but your explanation is wrong. You even named Metallica as an example, which is a dead giveaway, as they were notorious for releasing CDs with all the dynamic range crushed out of them. They don't sound bad because "digital", they sound bad because some recording engineer turned the compression dial to 11.

    19. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're a cunt.

    20. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > For starters, sampling at 16 bits means you only have 65536 discrete signal levels, so you get quantization noise.

      And at 16 bits it's effectively inaudible. WAY lower noise floor than vinyl or even 2" mastering tape.

      Not to mention most modern music is recorded and mixed at 24 bits or higher, there is more than enough dynamic range headroom.

      > It's technically worse than analog noise as it's not random.

      Dithering noise shaping fixes that. It hasn't been an issue for 20+ years. But feel free to find some new criticisms.

    21. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you need to take a digital photograph and keep blowing it up sometime, then do the same thing with a vector drawing.

    22. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I think you need to take a digital photograph and keep blowing it up sometime, then do the same thing with a vector drawing.

      Actually, digital audio is more like a vector drawing.

      Take a circle, measure the x,y of the center point and the x,y of any point on the circle. You can now reproduce that circle perfectly every time.

    23. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quantization noise just isn't an issue. If you measure the noise floor in bits, the very best analog open-reel tape systems used in recording studios was just 13 bits, and that's WITH the very best noise reduction technology. Why use 24 bits when mixing? Because while it isn't needed, stupid engineers feel better about using it.

    24. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      If you're a heavy metal fan you probably can't hear much of anything anyway, so no worries.

      Whoops, a heavy metal fan had mod points.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    25. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      most modern music is recorded and mixed at 24 bits or higher, there is more than enough dynamic range headroom. .. feel free to find some new criticisms.

      I agree. I do criticize statements like this from the original post:

      So the digital sample of the waveform can perfectly recreate the original analog waveform (within the chose frequency limit).

      The OP only talks about the Nyquist limit without any consideration to bit depth or quantization. If it were only about the Nyquist frequency, CDs would only need 1-bit converters at 44.1 kHz, rather than 16-bit.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    26. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, but the problem with all this is that it assumes that the limit to human hearing is 20kHz.

      It is. Nobody has ever demonstrated better than 20kHz perception without the high frequencies being EXTREMELY loud.

      Unless you can show me some science to rebut it (not including tricks like bone conduction)?

    27. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's all about the mastering of the last 25 years. Everything sounds horrible on CD and no one has invented a de-compressor plugin for music players.

    28. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not just frequency response! Waveforms have phase information. As frequencies approach nyquist, the sampled phase becomes more and more distorted. At the nyquist limit, there are only 2 possible phases for your reconstituted sine wave. That's why we use softer low pass filters instead of the ringy brick-wall filters that they used in the early days of CDs. Why do you think DVDs use 48KHz sampling rate instead of your 40KHz? It's NOT because people need inaudible 23KHz tones in the soundtrack.

      And sure, some people have exceptional hearing. If you reasonably quantified "exceptionally loud", you may find people who could take on your challenge, no bone conduction needed. But hearing actual music or natural sounds with high frequency content and phase information, not a hearing test.

    29. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. One word: oversampling.

      At even a 4x oversampling rate, the Nyquist frequency will be at 88.2kHz and you won't find any useful audio signal information there.

      I swear, you audiofreaks keep bringing up the same tired issues year after year, as if they weren't solved by engineers decades ago...

    30. Re:People don't understand what digital music is by imidan · · Score: 1

      I have a turntable and a box of vinyl records. I don't own these things because I have some delusion about sound quality, digital sampling, "warmer tone", or whatever. I just sometimes enjoy the physical ritual of putting a record on. There's a little light illuminating some bumps on the platter that show what speed it's running at. There's a light on the tone arm so you can see where the needle is. There's a little analog noise from dust and imperfections. It's fun.

      I also have a catalog of music in mp3 format. It's easy, it's portable, and it works just fine. That's how I usually consume music.

      My parents have a house with a modern forced-air heating system. It can keep the house at a pretty constant temperature automatically. But they still sometimes light a fire in the fireplace, just because it's fun.

  17. Re:Cassettes? Really? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 4, Funny

    Cassettes more portable? I guess you never experienced the glory of a turntable in your dash...

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  18. Is this hispters or old people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this hispters or old people who don't understand digital music, but are seeing the old Vinyl online?

    1. Re: Is this hispters or old people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe that is called blowing smoke when that method works to copy music

    2. Re:Is this hispters or old people? by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Older than hipsters, the top hits look like retired baby boomer stuff. But not all of it, some of it looks like grandkids of baby boomers. Who probably get disks and players as presents from their grandparents.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  19. But iPods don't play cassettes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I still buy CD's. Owning something physical gives me control over what I do with it (lend it, rip it, sell it, trade it). I do rip it right away though and add it to my terabytes of music on hard drive but I find more satisfaction looking at the artwork, credits and lyrics on printed paper. I like to hold physical objects rather than have my purchases reside in a cloud that can be turned off or deleted on someone else's whim. My car still has a factory 6 disc changer in it too and I love it. The steering wheel controls things with ease. I have a bluetooth puck and a terabyte memory card in my cellphone (with a headphone jack because that is a critical feature for me) but I much prefer listening to CD's. I have boxes of tapes too though but I haven't opened them in years. CD was the pinnacle of quality for me.

  20. Fake CDs by tepples · · Score: 2

    And the ripped WAV files from CDs don't have DRM unless you choose to add your own

    Unless you have a nonconforming disc passed off as a CD instead of a CD.

    1. Re:Fake CDs by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      In which case the "analog hole" with a $50 sound card still gives you lower SNR/THD+N than a turntable or cassette - and eliminates the DRM.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    2. Re:Fake CDs by dryeo · · Score: 2

      I accidentally bought a couple of those at the thrift store. Ripped fine, though they did take a bit longer due to jitter. That might have just been scratches. But then I don't run Windows and if I did, I'd have autoplay turned off. They're just multi-session.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  21. Re: Cassettes? Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can make pretty good music on a 4-track recorder which is completely different than an 8-track cassette - the tracks play independently and you can mix just under an hour of music. Using Dolby 3.1 you can actually remove all hiss if you wish. Anyone else ever buy a 4-track? I have one at home I considered bringing to work

  22. How do you know you're talking to an Audiophile... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't worry, they will bring it up, and all their equipment, for only the first hour or 2.

  23. Renaissance fair by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

    Renaissance fairs are big in Europe. Everybody dresses like The Gap is 400 years in the future and there is no such thing as medical science. I understand they have a lot of fun.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    1. Re: Renaissance fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is fun dancing around the maypole yes lol

    2. Re:Renaissance fair by DrXym · · Score: 2

      Renaissance fairs are big in Europe? I think you'll find that they're mostly a US phenomenon.

    3. Re:Renaissance fair by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Renaissance fairs are big in Europe? I think you'll find that they're mostly a US phenomenon.

      You'd be wrong. And the wonderful part about renaissance fairs in Europe is that we have actual medieval towns in which to hold them. It's quite a different experience having a renaissance fair in a football field in a US city vs in the Abbey of Echternach in Luxembourg.

    4. Re:Renaissance fair by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      My former home town has a medieval castle right by the center, and it gives a nice sense of history to the whole place. I don't need a cosplay to get that feeling. I guess it's different in a more modern environment, which is why I'd imagine such fairs are more common in the US.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    5. Re:Renaissance fair by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, you're completely right. As in not even slightly. Possibly because Europe has many genuine festivals going back hundreds of years to bother with make pretend cosplay bullshit ones. And that includes the one you cite ffs.

  24. MySpace has millions of artists by raymorris · · Score: 2

    MySpace alone has millions of artists.
    Apparently 99% of people don't want to look for good music, they want the record companies to find a few decent songs for for them. I guess that's why they only pay attention to the 0.01% of music that is handled by major labels. That and maybe the production quality.

  25. Re:Cassettes? Really? by skam240 · · Score: 0

    I love your ignorant sig. How about "Every government on earth: Regulation of business, gun control, national healthcare"

    The Nazis had a large military too. Does that mean those who favor large militaries are Nazis? The also had public schools and roads.

    Dumbass...

    --
    I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
  26. Re:Cassettes? Really? by mark-t · · Score: 1

    Absolutely.

    The weight of even the lightest (and cheaply made) vinyl records are about 80 to 90 grams, and more typically closer to about 150grams., while an audio cassette is only about 40 grams.

    So yes, definitely more portable.

  27. For all it's faults..... by WolfgangVL · · Score: 1

    A cassette tape will never install a rootkit on your tapedeck.
    They will never be able to take your cassette tapes away from you due to some rights-holder asshattery.
    A cassette tape doesn't care what region your playing it in.
    Cool old cars have tape decks.
    Creedence is supposed to have those hiss and pop sounds.
    Tapes come with cool album art, lryics, and hidden messages.
    Tapes work offline.
    Tapes don't report your listening habits, location, duration, sexual preference and political affiliation so some corporation.
    Grampa knows how tapes work.
    Whole albums can be had for less than what you paid for coffee this morning.
    Cassette tape cases are great places to hide your joints and ludes from your square parents.
    A stack of classic rock tapes looks cooler than and hard drive.
    Cassette tapes can go up in value.

    (Full disclosure: All my music is 128k mp3s ripped from my personal cd collection, or downloaded back before Metallica showed the media how. It's a shame, but it turns out the audiophile skill tree is locked out once your character completes the "War in Afghanistan" limited edition expansion pack.)

    --
    You are being ripped off every second of every day, so that advertisers can help rip you off even more tomorrow.
    1. Re:For all it's faults..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A cassette tape will never install a rootkit on your tapedeck.
      Neither will a standard Red Book audio CD.

      They will never be able to take your cassette tapes away from you due to some rights-holder asshattery.
      Neither will they with a standard Red Book audio CD.

      A cassette tape doesn't care what region your playing it in.
      Neither does a standard Red Book audio CD.

      Cool old cars have tape decks.
      My cool old car has a CD changer.

      Creedence is supposed to have those hiss and pop sounds.
      If so, they put it on the master so it should show up on your standard Red Book audio CD.

      Tapes come with cool album art, lryics, and hidden messages.
      So does a standard Red Book audio CD.

      Tapes work offline.
      So does a standard Red Book audio CD.

      Tapes don't report your listening habits, location, duration, sexual preference and political affiliation so some corporation.
      Neither will a standard Red Book audio CD.

      Fuck it, this is too much work... romanticize all you want, just keep it to yourself!

    2. Re:For all it's faults..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A cassette tape will never install a rootkit on your tapedeck.
      They will never be able to take your cassette tapes away from you due to some rights-holder asshattery.
      A cassette tape doesn't care what region your playing it in.
      Cool old cars have tape decks.
      Creedence is supposed to have those hiss and pop sounds.
      Tapes come with cool album art, lryics, and hidden messages.
      Tapes work offline.
      Tapes don't report your listening habits, location, duration, sexual preference and political affiliation so some corporation.
      Grampa knows how tapes work.
      Whole albums can be had for less than what you paid for coffee this morning.
      Cassette tape cases are great places to hide your joints and ludes from your square parents.
      A stack of classic rock tapes looks cooler than and hard drive.
      Cassette tapes can go up in value.

      Home taping is killing music.

    3. Re:For all it's faults..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would all be fucking awesome if "Standard Red Book Audio CD" was something you'd see on the packaging and had strict regulations on truth in labeling, but when you buy a CD there's really no way to know how much the publishers have fucked with it until you take it home and find out the hard way.

      At least with a cassette you're guaranteed that it's just a cassette.

    4. Re:For all it's faults..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      99.99% of the CDs you can buy will meet the Red Book standard and play just fine.

      (Yes, I made that number up, because effectively NO commercial CDs available today have been "fucked with" formatwise, but for safety's sake we can't say 100%)

    5. Re:For all it's faults..... by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      Thank you Sony, Philips and the Digital Audio Disc Committee; for your sponsored post about the "Red Book" audio CD format.

      It would be nice in the future though, if you posted a disclaimer outlining that this is a sponsored post, otherwise you're just astroturfing.

    6. Re:For all it's faults..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever, ya wingnut.

    7. Re:For all it's faults..... by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      Whatever, ya wingnut.

      Whatever you say, you AC corporate shill, you.

    8. Re:For all it's faults..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is everything a conspiracy theory to you??

      I don't work for ANY media company, just pointing out that all the "advantages" of tape equally apply to CDs, except for size. And with modern laser technology, a CD could be made 1/4 the size and hold just as much. Oh, and you can randomly access tracks as well!

      Brain-dead wingnut...

    9. Re:For all it's faults..... by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      I don't work for ANY media company...

      Well, that *totally* explains you posting corporate ads as AC! ... my bad.

    10. Re:For all it's faults..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just talking about a 30-year-old standard media format is a "corporate ad"??

      You're a fucking moron.

  28. Kurt Godel, and Archilies by aberglas · · Score: 5, Informative

    But, as the Tortoise points out to Archilies, if the play back device is of sufficiently high fidelity then a cassette could be constructed that will produce resonances that will cause it to self destruct. And no matter how hard Archilies tries to fix his machine, the Tortoise can always produce a new machine destroying tape.

    Has something to do with Godel. And possibly Bach and Escher.

    1. Re:Kurt Godel, and Archilies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hats off to you, sir.

  29. So did globuli and essential oils by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People are idiots.

    1. Re: So did globuli and essential oils by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah? Who? Who is an idiot?

    2. Re: So did globuli and essential oils by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People.

  30. Re: Always an idiot who doesnt want to get vaccina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are useful for fighting zombies.

  31. Masochists by DrXym · · Score: 2

    I wonder if people buy these shitty inferior sound formats just so they can waste a lot of money on the equipment and cables needed to make it sound acceptable.

    1. Re: Masochists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. We do.

    2. Re:Masochists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It never sounds anything but acceptable. Its more to tell their so-called friends that they just 'dont see a need to throw out all the expensive analog equipment they purchased 2 years ago just to get on some shitty bandwagon of digital. Pffbt. Plebes.'

    3. Re:Masochists by drewlake2000 · · Score: 1

      As hearing ability drops off with age, a formula could be created to model the increase in wages and the decrease in hearing. Talking out of my arse, but I would guess that by the time you could afford the kit to faithfully reproduce the sound ones hearing has degraded enough for it not to matter.

    4. Re: Masochists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how do they measure fair pay for voice talent when they redirect these audio tapes?

    5. Re:Masochists by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      On the other side of the equation, selling vinyl and cassette makes a great business, because they cannot be copied exactly like CDs. So it's no wonder it's something the music industry would try in order to stay afloat. But I wonder how well this particular hipster fad fares with the increasing awareness of plastic waste issues.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    6. Re:Masochists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We buy it because it seems to anger you so much.

    7. Re:Masochists by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      No. People buy shitty inferior sound formats because record industries have decided to fuck up the releases on technically superior formats rendering the shitty inferior ones as the better product.

      I was actually quite happy when the industry ignored vinyl, however recently there's more interest in that, expect the industry to fuck up this format now too. And then there's the recently industry trend of vinyl only special editions with never before released tracks.

    8. Re:Masochists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure about that since you can just have a PC hooked up to your stereo and record anything you want to .wav files and convert to any format you want. Has to be done in real time and you can do editing/noise reduction, but still very practical for duplication.

    9. Re:Masochists by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Not anger, amusement. And if you're stupid enough to do it then knock yourself out.

  32. Re:Traitor Drumpf must hang! by stealth_finger · · Score: 0

    This country is too great to have treasonous frauds shutting it down on a bullshit-supported whim. It's time to deal with the coward-in-chief, once and for all. Make America GREAT Again, GET RID OF THE TRAITOR.

    Isn't that what your second amendment is for?

    --
    Wanna buy a shirt?
    https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
  33. I'm still waiting for the VHS revival by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least then everybody will be able to see that the analog fetishists are nuts.

    1. Re:I'm still waiting for the VHS revival by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Low resolution or not, VHS didn't fucking destroy/pixelate reds or induce weird interlacing effects like alot of poorly mastered DVDs.

    2. Re:I'm still waiting for the VHS revival by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for demolishing my hopes...

      I'm still waiting for the VHS revival. At least then most people will be able to see that the analog fetishists are nuts.

    3. Re:I'm still waiting for the VHS revival by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your snark doesn't invalidate what I said.

    4. Re:I'm still waiting for the VHS revival by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Arguing with someone who insinuates that VHS has redeeming qualities compared to DVD is just as pointless as explaining digital audio to an "audiophile", but here we go. VHS has even lower color resolution than a DVD with color subsampling. Feast your eyes on the trainwreck that is VHS: "NTSC VHS is roughly equivalent to 333×480 pixels luma and 40×480 chroma resolutions (333×480 pixels=159,840 pixels or 0.16MP (1/6 of a MegaPixel)).,[34] while PAL VHS offers the equivalent of about 335×576 pixels luma and 40×240 chroma (the vertical chroma resolution of PAL is limited by the PAL color delay line mechanism)."

  34. DRM isn't just crypto by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Your tapes and records are in shitty shape if you hear hiss and crackle.

    I have new for you. ALL tapes sooner or later get in shitty shape. I'm old enough to predate the CD so I grew up with this tech. Pretty much all tapes and records end up in bad shape if you play them a meaningful number of times.

    The best part about analog music? No DRM and no bit rot.

    That hiss and crackle IS a form of bit rot. It's data being lost through the waveform being deformed.

    Also your notion that there was no DRM is not quite true. There is no practical way to make a perfect copy of a tape or vinyl record and making copies requires equipment and physical media. This is de-facto a form of DRM via inconvenience and cost. Just because it isn't based in cryptography doesn't change the fact that it makes making copies prohibitively difficult. Copying a tape or vinyl record is essentially no different than playing it through speakers and then recording the playing. You get a copy but it's not a perfect copy.

    1. Re:DRM isn't just crypto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also your notion that there was no DRM is not quite true. There is no practical way to make a perfect copy of a tape or vinyl record and making copies requires equipment and physical media. This is de-facto a form of DRM via inconvenience and cost.

      DRM is more than just copy protection, though. It also restricts how you use the product. Plus it's digital; that's what the 'D' stands for.

    2. Re:DRM isn't just crypto by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      DRM is intentionally designed not just to prevent copying but also restrict your other legitimate uses of the product.
      The extra difficulties involved in making a decent quality copy of an analog source are an inherent property of the medium.

      The difference is the intent.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  35. Decay and wear by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Vinyl and film I can understand, but magnetic medium just doesn't hold up.

    Vinyl and film don't last either. Anyone who thinks they last hasn't actually worked with them enough to know that fact. You play vinyl records by putting a very sharp needle on a very soft bit of plastic. Expecting the record to not wear/scratch/deform/etc with repeated playings is delusional. Film degrades over time and has to periodically be transferred to new medium. Otherwise it will eventually decay and be lost. Countless films from years gone by have been lost when the film decayed.

    I don't understand why anybody would want a cassette tape.

    The answer is mostly one of a few reasons. 1) People who have a cassette tape player and tapes and who are happy with it and don't want to change. Similar reasoning to people sticking with obsolete PCs that get a job done even when better options are available. I have a few people who work for me who listen to some old audio tapes to this day. 2) Hipsters. 3) People trying to get data from old cassettes. 4) There are always a few people who stubbornly refuse to move on from any given technology.

    That said, cassette tapes SUCK and need to die in a fire sooner rather than later. If you actually are a hipster buying one in a pathetic attempt to be ironically hip then you need to die in the same fire...

    1. Re:Decay and wear by Jetstream · · Score: 1

      Part of it's just the history for those of us who "came of age" in the 70s & 80s. I remember getting my first cassette waaay back in the 70s. (I want to say it was Alan Parsons "I Robot". Might be Captain & Tennielle, but I'd never admit to that.) And it was so much fun over the years making mix-tapes, once that became an option with dual cassette decks/boxes. Yeah, they had that annoying tendency to go bad. But they're just so ingrained in memories of growing up that I kinda miss them. And I swore I never go to those ugly, disgusting CDs!

      ... Which of course, I eventually did. Today, I've pretty much reluctantly disposed of most of my cassettes, now that I've been able to replace them either with CDs or with mp3s, with which I can make back-up copies so much more easily.

  36. Loudness Wars by Zobeid · · Score: 1

    Vinyl is not the music equivalent of homeopathy. Vinyl is a way to sidestep the loudness wars and get recordings that aren't afflicted with horrible dynamic range compression. Pop and rock CDs from roughly 2000 onward have generally been sonically crushed and sound like garbage. LP releases, for the most part, don't. That's the decision of the record companies and their recording engineers, and you'd have to ask them for the explanation of why it's done that way, because I don't know. I just have to deal with the results, and that means always buying new releases on vinyl.

  37. Tapes suck by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I can't play a record in my car, even if there were record players that did not skip on a slightly bumpy road, they would probably wear out the records pretty fast.

    I can't play a tape in my car either. Hasn't been a car made with a tape player as standard equipment in quite a while. Last car made with a tape player as standard equipment was sold back in 2010.

    And if I connect my phone to the car, then instead of just driving and listening I am tempted to play with the phone trying to select the next song at every opportunity (red light, stopping for a pedestrian etc).

    If this is your argument in favor of tapes, it's a terrible argument. If you think people didn't play with their tape decks (fast forwarding) to skip to their favorite bits you haven't driven in a car with a tape deck. People played with their tape decks while driving ALL THE TIME.

    With a tape, I just put it in and listen until the end of side B.

    And then put a gun in your mouth at the next stop light out of boredom. Plus you have to keep a library of tapes in your car unless you are a psycho who likes listening to the same thing endlessly. No thanks. I lived through the cassette era growing up and have no desire to repeat.

    1. Re:Tapes suck by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      My car is older and it has a slot for a tape deck or radio.

      If this is your argument in favor of tapes, it's a terrible argument. If you think people didn't play with their tape decks (fast forwarding) to skip to their favorite bits you haven't driven in a car with a tape deck. People played with their tape decks while driving ALL THE TIME.

      Well, maybe other did, but I do not. I very rarely rewind a tape to listen to a song a second time, that's it. When I can select a song to play from a list (be it on a phone or PC), I tend to spend too much time thinking what should I play next. When I play a tape, I listen to it from start of side A to the end of side B.

      Plus you have to keep a library of tapes in your car unless you are a psycho who likes listening to the same thing endlessly.

      What I do is decide what tape I want to listen to and then take it to my car. When I finish listening to that tape, I get another one. If I plan on driving for longer than one tape plays, I take two or three tapes to cover the driving time.

    2. Re:Tapes suck by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      I can't play a tape in my car either. Hasn't been a car made with a tape player as standard equipment in quite a while. Last car made with a tape player as standard equipment was sold back in 2010.

      Eh, hook up a bluetooth adapter to your walkman.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    3. Re:Tapes suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Eh, hook up a bluetooth adapter to your walkman.

      Be sure it's good old ANALOG Bluetooth, though!

    4. Re:Tapes suck by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      They make bluetooth dongles that hook up to the headphone jack, or any analog audio input.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    5. Re:Tapes suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>> Eh, hook up a bluetooth adapter to your walkman.
      >> Be sure it's good old ANALOG Bluetooth, though!
      > They make bluetooth dongles that hook up to the headphone jack, or any analog audio input.

      Whoosh!

  38. An actual tape user? by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I use cassettes to listen to music in my car and on a portable player primarily.

    I'm sorry. That must be an awful existence.

    You are aware that you can connect digital music players via adapters to play through a tape deck without having the awful experience of actually using tapes, right?

    I already have a lot of cassettes - recording them to CDs (though CDs are bigger than cassettes, so it would be less convenient) or other digital formats would take a long time. It is easier to record the new CD I bought to a cassette so I can listen to it in my car.

    What's even easier is to rip a new CD to your smartphone and then use that to listen to it. FAR less hassle than recording a CD to a fricken cassette tape.

    I tried connecting my phone to the tape deck and playing mp3s. The problem was that I was too tempted to skips songs etc that it distracted me (I would select the next song at an intersection, not notice that the light is already green etc). With a tape, I just put it in and I listen to it until the end of side B. Also, connecting the phone, starting the player program is an additional thing to do when I start the car.

    Seriously? You be you but if this is your reasoning understand you are many standard deviations away from normal. If you are that easily distracted I worry you probably shouldn't be driving a car in the first place. Plus I've never met anyone who didn't try to fast forward tapes while driving or fiddle distractedly with changing tapes.

    1. Re:An actual tape user? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cunt

    2. Re:An actual tape user? by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I do not need an adapter, I modded my tape deck to have a line input. I sometimes connect my minidisc player to that.

      What's even easier is to rip a new CD to your smartphone and then use that to listen to it. FAR less hassle than recording a CD to a fricken cassette tape.

      Here's the problem. I have maybe 200 cassettes. If I want to get rid of the tape deck in my car and replace it with a digital player, I would have to record all of those cassettes to a digital format. It would take at least 200 hours to do that (then I would need to name the files, maybe split them by song which would take more time).
      OTOH, it takes about an hour to record a new CD to a tape.

      Plus I've never met anyone who didn't try to fast forward tapes while driving or fiddle distractedly with changing tapes.

      I sometimes rewind a tape to listen to a song a second time. When I have a convenient way to select a song from a list, I tend to think too much about it and take more time than the song plays for. I sometimes do that at home - instead of listening to music and doing something somewhat useful, I listen to music and browse directories for the next song.

      If I am driving somewhere far away, I take multiple tapes, but I only change the tape when the current one finishes playing and since I only take enough tapes to last the trip, I do not need to think too much about the next tape.

    3. Re:An actual tape user? by thepigwanker · · Score: 1

      I modded my tape deck to have a line input. I sometimes connect my minidisc player to that.

      I finally got rid of my minidiscs last year. I had two stereo decks and four (working) portable players, but I hadn't listened to any of them in years. It was really hard to give them up but they just weren't sparking joy anymore, I guess. I later caught a homeless guy smashing one of decks against the pavement in my alley (I think he wanted the metal frame for recycling) and the violence of the act was absolutely stunning for me...like watching someone kick a puppy.

      (I'm sorry I know this is really off-topic but I haven't had anyone I can talk to about this that would understand.)

    4. Re:An actual tape user? by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      You should have sold them ior given them away to someone who would appreciate them. It makes me sad when I see working equipment thrown out.

  39. Suckers, Birthrates, Units of time by Chas · · Score: 1

    It's all very easy to explain.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  40. This is just noise by RoloDMonkey · · Score: 2

    Twelve percent growth sounds impressive, but this is like a penny stock having a 50% change in price. It is just noise. In the heydays of vinyl there were individual albums that could sell 9 million copies in one year. Heck, even Billy Ocean sold 2 million copies of "Suddenly": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    --
    Long live the Speaker Bracelet
    Rolo D. Monkey
    1. Re:This is just noise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely correct. 118k cassettes sold? That's less than 7 sold per state per day. That's so small it barely even registers as niche.

  41. Confirmation bias by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Take good care of your albums and they will reward you with rich, warm, pop-free sound for a lifetime.

    Not if you actually play them they won't. You are putting a sharp metal needle on a soft plastic record. Even with the best possible care you will inevitably damage the vinyl record merely by playing it even if nothing else goes wrong which is seldom the case. If you think you can avoid this you haven't actually lived with vinyl records or played them with any regularity.

    Eventually some dust gets on them, either a fine layer of white glue or some good light cleaners, or both will take care of that.

    Eventually? Try almost immediately. Dust is everywhere. And dust will be the least of your problems in the long run. Any time you have a media which relies on physical contact it is going to wear and be damaged over time. Vinyl records are no exception to physics.

    I have enough spare tubes to last a lifetime, and when my turntable plays through it it's like a spiritual experience. The warmth and beauty of that has to be experienced.

    I am very dubious your claim would survive a double blind study. And if a turntable playing is a spiritual experience for you then you need to get out more. Sorry, that's a little harsh but you sound like every lunatic audiophile I've ever run into who goes nattering on about "warmth" and "fidelity" and other nonsense that they want to believe they can hear out of confirmation bias. If you love listening to vinyl records on some good old equipment then you be you. But forgive me if I don't share the same appreciation for the "experience".

    1. Re:Confirmation bias by Jahoda · · Score: 1

      And if a turntable playing is a spiritual experience for you then you need to get out more. Sorry, that's a little harsh but you sound like every lunatic audiophile

      I know one thing's for sure, people who insult the hobbies of others, telling them they need to get out more and are lunatics ALWAYS are the people whose compelling arguments I take seriously. Thanks for contributing today.

  42. Good Enough by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Each advance was a real technological advancement that made music sound better

    That's because we were starting from nothing. Eventually we got to Good Enough and there was no reason to progress further.

    People started to value convenience over quality. MP3s on shitty earbuds became the standard

    It's adorable you think people used cassette tapes or vinyl records because of their quality. They used them because they were the ONLY realistic options at the time. The moment CDs came out people dumped vinyl records and cassettes like they had the plague. Vinyl records and cassettes are huge pains in the ass. The moment MP3s were available they did the same to CDs. Why? The new formats were FAR more convenient and the quality was Good Enough. For those who care high quality records were and still are available.

    Hopefully, people of the future will continue the quest for audio quality,

    No need. We have awesome technology for high quality audio WHEN WE NEED IT. Most of the time we don't. Most people just want to listen to a beat they like in reasonable fidelity and in a convenient format. If they really need a high quality recording then there are ways to get that. Your argument is like claiming everyone should walk around with a $5,000 DSLR camera instead of their smartphone camera even when they don't actually need or want the extra capabilities, bulk, and cost.

  43. The allure of vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dismissing portability for a minute, vinyl in particular is still going strong because of many of the other features beyond good sound quality. Yes, I'm older and grew up with 8-track tapes (horrible) in my teens and then vinyl and cassettes once I was able to afford more than just a boom box for the 8-tracks. I still have a large collection of vinyl and cassettes as well as over 900 CDs. I took good care of them and most of them still sound very good today after 50 years.

    I have a couple of decent stereo setups and honestly both CD's and vinyl sound great, cassettes are definitely a step down. The real reason that I buy vinyl these days is for the packaging. Not only are the album covers full size, but you can actually read the lyrics and other liner notes. I don't know how many times I've had to get out a magnifying glass just to read the text on CD inserts which is so frustrating.

    After spending an hour listening to XTC's wonderful, corrected polarity re-release of their Skylarking LP in the deluxe package and taking a leisurely read through the enclosed 16 page booklet and beautiful artwork, I don't really ever want to get out that magnifying glass again. The package also included a CD of the album. The album was remastered on 2 vinyl 45 RPM discs. They specifically address this choice in the liner notes saying that in order to bring out the bass sound that was missing in the original release, they made it on 45 RPM to allow plenty of groove space. There is a real difference as I listened to both the LP and the CD.

    In addition, many vinyl releases today actually come with MP3 downloads or even a CD of the album included. So you are getting at least two formats with an LP purchase. If you are not interested in the packaging, buy the CD. If you want the full experience the artist intended you to have. Buy the LP.

  44. Better than it sounds .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cassette tapes replaced LP records and 8-track tapes. CDs didn't exist for a few years and CD players were hundreds of dollars for the first few years. Also, no cars had CD players for 10-15 yrs, so if you wanted music in a vehicle, it was 8-track or cassettes.

    Dolby noise reduction was available for most cassettes. Then "B" and "C". Those solutions worked great (at the time) for forwards and backwards compatibility. Players with no noise reduction played the tapes fine. In a noisy car (5L mustang with the top down), the hiss didn't matter. ;) The engine growl rocked with some Van Halen.

    Then DBX encoding became affordable, but tapes encoded with it didn't playback well at all on non-DBX decks. I ended up putting in a dbx decoder in my vehicles to get the best available sound. DBX was 2x better than DolbyC which was 2x better than DolbyB.

    A good transfer to dbx cassette is just as good as a CD audio in terms of quality for most ears. It is certainly better than 128-bit mp3 encodes.

    As for tapes breaking. In all my years, decades listening to cassette tapes, I've only has 2 break. Tapes of varying quality were available, but if you bought quality tapes, and didn't leave them in the sun, in a car, in summer, for months, they just never failed. I have/had a case that holds 24 cassettes that I'd bring in and out to the car.

    I probably own 500+ commercial cassettes and 500 "recording" cassettes. Most were converted to digital files in the 1990s, including my Flash Gordon movie soundtrack tape. ;) Flash - aaaah.....

  45. What a JOKE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow. 12% to a total of less than 10 million. This number is so small that you have to laugh. How many 'albums' are sold for an album to go gold? Or platinum?

    In the late 1970's this number would be considered death as this would account for the top 5 albums alone.

    Just 5 albums this number would account to when the music buying population was a fraction of what it is today. These mediums are not just dead but stupid. The music is digitally recorded, converted to analog media, then played most cases on a digital sound system. There is no superior sound. There is just wow, flutter, rumble, scratches, and other annoying effects which is why digital became what it is today, a crappy produced sound with now highs and all bass and synthesized voices that sound like a McDonald's Happy Meal toy.

  46. Use a playlist by sjbe · · Score: 1

    My car is older and it has a slot for a tape deck or radio.

    I'm passingly curious what you plan to do when it dies...

    When I can select a song to play from a list (be it on a phone or PC), I tend to spend too much time thinking what should I play next.

    All phones and PCs these days have playlists which you can listen to in order just like a tape if you want. Nothing forces you to fiddle with them. Also they have voice interfaces so you don't even have to take your eyes off the road while driving to use them. I understand using constraints to deal with a bad habit though so if it works for you who am I to judge?

    What I do is decide what tape I want to listen to and then take it to my car.

    So make a playlist and then play it. Same effect with less hassle. Use an iPod shuffle or similar if you don't trust yourself to not fiddle with it.

    1. Re:Use a playlist by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I'm passingly curious what you plan to do when it dies...

      Let's say my car gets destroyed by a terrorist etc and is not repairable. Well, I'd just buy another old car (for other reasons, not just the radio slot). If the law prevented me from doing that, I'd probably mount a small tape deck (or a car tape deck) under the dash of a car that does not have the proper slot.
      I have a lot of tapes and most of them are either pre-recorded or recorded from radio or a record, so, if I wanted that music in a digital format, I would have to record from that tape to digital.

      Nothing forces you to fiddle with them.

      Nothing external. But if I can change the song or a playlist with a press of a button, I may be very tempted to do so. If I absolutely had to use digital, I would probably buy a bunch of flash drives and use them like tapes.

      Also, for me, picking a tape from a set of four (say I'm driving for a few hours), removing it from the case and inserting it into the tape deck is easier and less distracting than going trough menus. I can remove the tape from its case, remove the old tape from the deck, place it on the passenger seat, insert the new tape into the deck while still looking at the road.
      I can even choose a tape while still looking at the road - I just bring it in front of me to see which one it is. Since I selected those 4 tapes from my collection, I already know what's on them, so I do not have to read anything - especially if the tapes are pre-recorded or of different brands and look really different.

      On the other hand, if I had to navigate menus to find the next playlist or song, that would take much more concentration than with tapes.

      If I am driving short distances (and it usually is 10-15 minutes), connecting/disconnecting the phone or other device when I enter/leave the car gets annoying.

      I actually tried connecting my phone, it's OK, but less convenient than a tape.

  47. Souvenirs by Schnapple · · Score: 1

    I missed this yesterday so probably no one will read thus but anyway...

    It's always amusing to see a story like this on Slashdot because it just drives the crowd on here fucking nuts. A largely superior form of listening to music exists and yet people are buying more and more music on an ancient medium.

    I'm sure there are people who believe vinyl sounds absolutely better. I used to be one of them. Over the many years since I've been in high school and had that belief I've learned a lot about technology, sound engineering (just a pinch), music mastering, and so forth to realize that the notion that vinyl is better is not an absolute thing at all. It has the potential to sound better in certain circumstances, usually involving an expensive turntable, but overall it mostly just potentially sounds different, not necessarily better.

    But for most people, I don't think that's the reason they're buying vinyl. Today, if you're buying physical music in any format you're basically buying a souvenir.

    Consider a CD. What's the difference between buying a CD in the store and burning one from MP3 files? Cover art, liner notes, silk screening on the disc and some amount of added audio fidelity. The fidelity is not insignificant but really when you're buying a CD you're buying something you could almost make yourself from downloaded files (regardless of how you got the files).

    And that's before you consider the fact that if you're buying a CD you probably also want it on MP3 and you'll have to rip it yourself with an optical drive you're increasingly unlikely to have.

    A vinyl record, on the other hand, is not something you can make yourself. And there's a decent chance it comes with an MP3 download code. And even if it doesn't, it's a big, huge tangible thing that done correctly can be a work of art. The vinyl can be colored, or using funky patterns, or translucent. It can have things like etched holograms in it, or weird tricks like the ones Jack White pulls where he has alternate intro tracks based on where your needle falls or hidden songs in the space on the label. It's just neat.

    Plus digital music has done lots of great things but it's true, digital music devalues music. An album comes out, you listen to it once, you say "cool" and then you hit shuffle on your whole collection and you listen to the songs as they occasionally pop up. Listening to CDs was more atomic - you would tend to listen to one CD in your car over and over, or however many your home or car disc changer could handle. A vinyl record though, that's a commitment. You have to decide you want to listen to pretty much the entire side of an album. If you want to listen to a double album you have to get up and flip or change the record three times. If you want to listen to the Hamilton soundtrack you have to get up or flip the record seven times. This is why a lot of the vinyl that sells well to this day are things like Dark Side of the Moon where it's more album oriented than song/single oriented. And a lot of you reading this probably think this is stupid but a lot of us think it's neat. If vinyl continues to grow in popularity we might see a return to the album oriented rock it popularized.

    But yeah if you're buying physical music you're buying a souvenir. And it looks like more and more people figure if they're going to buy music, might as well buy a souvenir. Something with big, cool album art and a tangible experience. The rest of the public is fine with music services like Spotify and Apple Music. So the CDs are leaving stores, the vinyl isn't, and although a small handful of people with breathlessly fight to the death to argue that vinyl is superior in some form or fashion the simple reality is that digital music and streaming services aren't going anywhere.

    So let the vinyl weirdos like me have our fun.

    1. Re:Souvenirs by VeryFluffyBunny · · Score: 1

      A vinyl record, on the other hand, is not something you can make yourself.

      Speak for yourself. If you're not willing to shell out for your own gear to "roll your own" vinyl, you're a cheapskate. I lovingly hand-press my vinyl records & hand screen-print the sleeves for that authentic artisanal effect & personal satisfaction of owning a well-crafted album/single work of art. This means I don't actually have any time to listen to them but that doesn't matter -- At least I know they'll sound authentic.

      --
      Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
  48. Not to be pedantic (oh who am I kidding?)... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    ...but there's no such thing as a 45 RPM LP. LP stands for "long playing", because dropping the RPMs from 45 to 33 1/3 allowed them to put more music on a disc.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    1. Re:Not to be pedantic (oh who am I kidding?)... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct. I should have said the reissue was done in a newly remastered 12" 45 RPM format that allows for wider grooves to provide for more bass response. Pedantic is a nice underused word.

  49. Cassette?!! by VeryFluffyBunny · · Score: 2

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Even if you're used to listening to low-fi Youtube bootleg recordings on a cheap phone via $5 drugstore earbuds, cassette's gotta sound really bad. Why? Why would anyone wanna pay money for that?

    --
    Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
  50. Not just digital by Socguy · · Score: 1

    I get the vinyl sales. The record is iconic and the box art is a key part of the package of 'owing' a record. A vinyl copy is a physical thing. I can see how a true collector would insist on the vinyl copy for their shelf along with a digital one for their devices. With the unlimited streaming services, all you're doing is renting. Besides, I would think that purchasing the vinyl record at a concert will do more to support your favorite band than just streaming.

    Does vinyl sound better? I won't touch that one with a 10 foot poll. I'll let the audiophiles and philosophers grind on that one for the next infinity.

    As for cassettes... I don't see a need for these things to come back. They were garbage when they were in their hayday and they're garbage now. Perhaps a nostaga wave from the 80's kids... I hope to see these things die out quickly again.

    1. Re:Not just digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great point. Bands these days are selling vinyl at their merch tables and you can pick up some interesting things you can't buy in a store. Here's an example that I was glad to pick up at a concert. https://www.discogs.com/Off-Live-At-930-Club/master/583109 (vinyl only, no download available unless you steal it)

    2. Re:Not just digital by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      Does vinyl sound better? I won't touch that one with a 10 foot poll. I'll let the audiophiles and philosophers grind on that one for the next infinity.

      Why though? This is a settled question: it can't.

    3. Re:Not just digital by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does vinyl sound better? I won't touch that one with a 10 foot poll. I'll let the audiophiles and philosophers grind on that one for the next infinity.

      Why though? This is a settled question: it can't.

      "Better" is entirely subjective, so even if the specs are measurably worse, some people may like the sound better anyway.

  51. dynamic range compression: sometimes you want it by Rozzin · · Score: 1

    CDs can sound incredibly good if they're mastered right, but that's something record producers no longer have any interest in. Basically any rock or pop CD from about 2000 onward is going to sound crummy. Also, any recording from earlier than that if it has been remastered. When I see REMASTERED on a CD label, I mentally translate that as SPECIAL EBOLA EDITION.

    It depends: there are some listening-environments in which the dynamic-range compression is actually desirable--basically anywhere with a high noise floor; if you in a machine shop, for example....

    There are plenty of less extreme examples, though: any public space where people are going to be having conversations; or driving in a car on the highway....

    If you're trying to listen to music with high dynamic range and you have to overcome the ambient noise of the environment, then you need to turn the music up in order to hear the quiet parts and the loud parts end up blasting you; these are the situations when you end up either constantly re-adjusting the volume (doing the range-compression manually) or using some sort of noise-cancelling or isolating headphones/earphones/canalphones (which can create their own issues: sometimes you *want* to be able to still hear your environment *as* you're enjoy your music).

    Parents who want to listen to something without waking their napping kids but without having to wear headphones also go for dynamic-range compression (either built into the audio, or done manually via repeated tweaking of the volume-control, or through a playback-system that includes an automatic dynamic-range compressor or "volume limiter").

    On the other side, if you were for example in a restaurant or something where they played `background' music with high dynamic range, you'd be more likely to get frustrated with alternately having to yell over the louder parts when the music jumped into the foreground (or having other people yell over it) and having the quiet parts that would be enjoyable be completely drowned out by the chatter of the crowd (many of whom probably increased their own volume to talk over the loud parts and then failed to turn themselves back down...).

    --
    -rozzin.
  52. Re:Traitor Drumpf must hang! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make America GREAT Again, GET RID OF THE TRAITOR.

    We did that when we elected Trump.

  53. Re:dynamic range compression: sometimes you want i by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parents who want to listen to something without waking their napping kids but without having to wear headphones also go for dynamic-range compression (either built into the audio, or done manually via repeated tweaking of the volume-control, or through a playback-system that includes an automatic dynamic-range compressor or "volume limiter")

    .

    I seem to recall my stereo receiver from 1983 had a feature like this. I think they called it a "loudness button."