State of Emergency Declared in Washington State Over Measles Outbreak (cbsnews.com)

Lets be antivax! by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 08:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

What could possibly go wrong?

Re:Lets be antivax! by ShanghaiBill · 2019-01-26 08:50 · Score: 1, Troll

Intelligence is heritable, so if they are anti-vaxxers or their direct descendants, we may want to give them an IQ test before we treat them. It may be better to let natural selection run its course. We'll all be better off in the long run.
Clark County is directly across the Columbia River from Portland, so we may be able to purge the entire metro area of idiots.
Re:Lets be antivax! by jpaine619 · 2019-01-26 08:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

The problem with your theory is that you can get a disease, that you have been vaccinated for, if you're hit with a huge amount of the infectious agent. i.e. If you sit down next to someone who's leaking measles all over the place (coughing, sneezing, etc) it may overwhelm your immune system and you could get get sick.
Vaccines work best when everyone gets them.
Re: Lets be antivax! by Saithe · 2019-01-26 09:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

You do know that the flu vaccine is efficient, right? It's just not efficient against all three strands of the flu and they try to guess which one will be the dominant one each year. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes not, but at least there's a chance of protection.
Re: Lets be antivax! by Hognoxious · 2019-01-26 09:58 · Score: 1, Troll

You could destroy a whole society in a couple generations with some well placed fallacies that go viral

Indeed. Look what happened to the Romans. Hardest bastards in the world, then Constantine went all batshit and in next to no time they turned into wops and become a laughing stock.

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Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re: Lets be antivax! by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 09:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

HPV vaccine you twat.
Re:Lets be antivax! by BitterOak · 2019-01-26 10:01 · Score: 1

The problem with your theory is that you can get a disease, that you have been vaccinated for, if you're hit with a huge amount of the infectious agent. i.e. If you sit down next to someone who's leaking measles all over the place
You've kind of answered your own question here. If the intelligent people refrain from sitting down next to someone who is "leaking measles all over the place" then the Darwinian principle would still hold.

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If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Re: Lets be antivax! by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 10:12 · Score: 1

please forgive them, they're a dumfuk 'merican.
Re:Lets be antivax! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2019-01-26 10:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

Lets be antivax! What could possibly go wrong?
VMS sales, for example?

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Ezekiel 23:20
Re:Lets be antivax! by goose-incarnated · 2019-01-26 10:32 · Score: 1, Troll

Creating educational echo chambers hasn't generally been a good idea - take Upper Padville for an example.
You'll just get the anti-vaxxers going over and shooting all the others for not being prawpur chrurstyurns.
Aren't many of the celebrity anti-vaxxers from the left and/or secular side of the political spectrum?

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I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Re:Lets be antivax! by malkavian · 2019-01-26 11:07 · Score: 2

You realise that it's infectious in its incubation period, before people get symptomatic, right?
Re:Lets be antivax! by goose-incarnated · 2019-01-26 11:08 · Score: 1

Aren't many of the celebrity anti-vaxxers from the left and/or secular side of the political spectrum?
Yeah. Anne Coulter, total commie.
"Many" doesn't mean "all", it means "many". In fact, the outbreak right now is in the middle of a majority left population.

--
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Re:Lets be antivax! by cheesybagel · 2019-01-26 11:28 · Score: 1

This is just nature weeding out dumb people. Please move along.
I still remember people in my grandparent's age telling me their horror stories of experiences either they or former (read dead) members of their family had with measles.
Re: Lets be antivax! by cheesybagel · 2019-01-26 11:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

Dude. The flu vaccine is efficient. Why do you think the doctors and nurses take them themselves every single year? The problem is the flu virus mutates rapidly and there are several strains of the virus, unlike other viruses, so the protection it provides is limited in time until the flu virus mutates again. It also needs to be produced months in advance (it takes time to prepare it).
Re: Lets be antivax! by cheesybagel · 2019-01-26 11:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

I wouldn't say so. The part of the Empire he personally oversaw managed to last another 500 years. Which is more than the USA has been in existence so far.
Re: Lets be antivax! by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 12:13 · Score: 1

Those toxic additives do serve a purpose. They keep the virus preserved and trigger an immune response. That's how your immune systems knows to go fight it. A weakened virus by itself would just fall apart without any help from the immune system, or worse it would just infect the person.
Re:Lets be antivax! by sjames · 2019-01-26 12:15 · Score: 1

If that condition was visually apparent, it could sort of work, but it isn't.
Re: Lets be antivax! by Mspangler · 2019-01-26 12:41 · Score: 1, Informative

Odd, I had the measles, as did my brother. It knocked me on my butt for about five days, and at half-speed for another five. And not even close to life threatening. Niether of us even saw a doctor because it wasn't necessary since they can't cure a virus anyway.
The caveat I'll admit to is that our ancestors are from the North German Plain. Measles has been endemic there since Caucasians got there. If I was Native American the results might have been worse. I don't know if their genes have been sufficiently selected for for enhanced virus killing functionality.
Re: Lets be antivax! by careysub · 2019-01-26 12:44 · Score: 4, Informative

This site cites five different pollsters all indicating that antivaxx sentiment rates are evenly split between parties.
Anyone here trying to make this into a right/left issue is pushing a false agenda.
So no, not majority left (unless you are pinning your claim on the fact that Republicans are in a minority.

--
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
Re: Lets be antivax! by Dayze!Confused · 2019-01-26 12:46 · Score: 3, Interesting

You're describing Clark County, the conservative sinkhole across the river from liberal Portland.

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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
Re: Lets be antivax! by careysub · 2019-01-26 12:50 · Score: 1

Your father needs to go to a different doctor, who is not an incompetent "pill doctor". He needs to have a "medication reset" wherein only the underlying life or health-threatening medical condition (if any) is treated with medication.

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Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
Re:Lets be antivax! by clovis · 2019-01-26 12:54 · Score: 4, Informative

The problem with your theory is that you can get a disease, that you have been vaccinated for, if you're hit with a huge amount of the infectious agent. i.e. If you sit down next to someone who's leaking measles all over the place
You've kind of answered your own question here. If the intelligent people refrain from sitting down next to someone who is "leaking measles all over the place" then the Darwinian principle would still hold.
It's not necessary to sit next to a measles infected person, or even be near a measles infected person to get infected.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/ab...
"Also, measles virus can live for up to two hours in an airspace where the infected person coughed or sneezed. If other people breathe the contaminated air or touch the infected surface, then touch their eyes, noses, or mouths, they can become infected. Measles is so contagious that if one person has it, 90% of the people close to that person who are not immune will also become infected.
Infected people can spread measles to others from four days before through four days after the rash appears."
Re: Lets be antivax! by Applehu+Akbar · 2019-01-26 13:14 · Score: 1

That's the experience of most people who got measles, which includes myself. There was no vaccine for it in 1956. But because the disease has a number of horrible side effects in some patients, we don't want anyone to catch it now that a vaccine exists.
Re:Lets be antivax! by meglon · 2019-01-26 13:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

No. Clark county is fairly split, but is currently leaning republican, with all the elected officials being republicans except their prosecuting attorney and treasurer. At the very least do 20 seconds of research before typing.

But lets be a bit clearer... when people say anti-vaxxer they immediately think of the dipshits who don't get their kids the measles or TDaP vaccines. They don't think about all the fundamentalist religious freaks who refuse to get the HPV vaccine for their kids... obviously opting to have their kids die in the excruciating agony from several completely preventable diseases, instead of saving their lives because "sex bad, mkay," and they somehow think their kids will all turn into prostitutes and porn stars if they did get the vaccine.... which i think just shows how little they think of their own parenting skills.

So, no, anti-vaxxers aren't predominately left-wing.... but all of them, left or right, are predominantly stupid.

--
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Re: Lets be antivax! by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 14:21 · Score: 1

Because they are FORCED to take them, retard.
Re:Lets be antivax! by Cinnamon+Beige · 2019-01-26 15:22 · Score: 1

The problem with your theory is that you can get a disease, that you have been vaccinated for, if you're hit with a huge amount of the infectious agent. i.e. If you sit down next to someone who's leaking measles all over the place (coughing, sneezing, etc) it may overwhelm your immune system and you could get get sick.
Vaccines work best when everyone gets them.
Actually, it's typically not an 'overwhelmed your immune system' issue usually as much as 'the vaccine did not take,' or possibly 'guess what was among the germ definitions your immune system has decided to clean out!'
The only useful thing I know of that we have learned from the antivaxxer movement is that some vaccines we thought provided lifelong protection such as the measles vaccine don't actually do that: they actually provide what, if herd immunity is achieved, is effectively lifelong protection because the immune system 'remembers' long enough to get you through the period where you're most likely to get it. We might not have necessarily needed them to learn this, though, so the only thing they did is make it easier to identify the problem by sacrificing their children's futures.
However, none of this makes it okay because the morbidity and mortality isn't limited to the antivaxxers themselves, because the odds are low that any of them are personally unvaccinated--I doubt that their kids consented to be victims of a very risky experiment that almost certainly would have never made it past an ethics review anyway.
Re:Lets be antivax! by Hognoxious · 2019-01-26 18:09 · Score: 1

I swear the germs do that on purpose. Sneaky little bastards.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re: Lets be antivax! by ceoyoyo · 2019-01-26 19:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is an absolutely perfectly example of the adage "the plural of anecdote is not data."
Measles has a death rate of around 2 per 1000, higher in very young children and adults. The serious complication rate (like permanent hearing damage) is a bit higher. It's absolutely unsurprising that in your sample of two, neither of you died. But if measles was endemic in a country of, say, a third of a billion people... that's a lot of fatalities.
Re: Lets be antivax! by rl117 · 2019-01-26 21:51 · Score: 2

"proven to contain". No. That's a really weird conspiracy-theory stance. No. They are *known* to contain various substances because they have a *purpose*, and were specifically added to serve that purpose. Some are to act as a preservative (e.g. thimerosal--a form or mercury). Others are to act as an adjuvant (e.g. aluminium). Adjuvants stimulate an inflammatory response which causes the immune system to notice and react to the virus part of the vaccine, and develop a proper immune response. Without it, the vaccine would not work, or would work very poorly.
The tiny amounts of e.g. mercury and aluminium in a vaccine are of little consequence. Most of the mercury will be excreted over weeks-months, and it was only present in microgram quantities in any case.
As for your father's medication, this has zero bearing on vaccines and it completely irrelevant.
Re: Lets be antivax! by thsths · 2019-01-26 22:55 · Score: 1

Indeed. Antivaxers are an anti-intellectual movement (anti-enlightenment, if you want to put it into historical context), mixed in with some anti-authoritarian sentiments, and they come from all parts of the spectrum.
Re: Lets be antivax! by drinkypoo · 2019-01-27 02:04 · Score: 1

"Why do you think the doctors and nurses take them themselves every single year?"
Because it is a condition of employment.
"The problem is the flu virus mutates rapidly and there are several strains of the virus, unlike other viruses, so the protection it provides is limited in time until the flu virus mutates again."
So close, yet so fail. You started out great, then petered out. The problem is the flu virus mutates rapidly and there are several strains of the virus, and the companies making the vaccines sometimes target the wrong strain(s) ... But when they do, they don't tell you so, and instead they continue marketing the vaccine as if it would be useful. So every year, you have to dig through news articles to find out whether they got it right to determine whether there is actually any point to getting it. It's understandable that they would get it wrong sometimes, but it is outright fraud when they sell you vaccinations targeting the wrong strains under the claims that flu vaccinations save lives. Sure they do, but not those ones! But they advertise them exactly the same as the ones that will. It's crap like that which reduces public faith in vaccination.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re: Lets be antivax! by drinkypoo · 2019-01-27 02:10 · Score: 1

" Most of the mercury will be excreted over weeks-months, and it was only present in microgram quantities in any case."
Mercury is bioaccumulative, so there is no safe dosage. The argument over thimerosal is whether it breaks down into a form that can be absorbed or not. AFAICT that is still being questioned. In the USA, it is used only in multi-use vials, so you can avoid it by going to the doctor for injections instead of getting them from a queue. It HAS been used in schools, even past the date at which it wasn't meant to have been given to children any more, which reduces public trust in vaccination systems.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re: Lets be antivax! by thegarbz · 2019-01-27 02:56 · Score: 1

Because it is a condition of employment.
And yet I know many formerly employed, retired and career changed doctors and nurses who continue to take them every year. Mind you so do I, so does my wife, so does everyone with half a brain and access to a free medical system.

But when they do, they don't tell you so, and instead they continue marketing the vaccine as if it would be useful.

False. Targeting the wrong strain is something that you only find out after the fact. The information is openly published, and people who are extremely late in the season are advised to get the shot anyway simply because it still immunises you against the non-predominant strain of the season.
Don't go looking for conspiracies where there are none.

but it is outright fraud when they sell you vaccinations targeting the wrong strains under the claims that flu vaccinations save lives. Sure they do, but not those ones!
That is a dumb comment. It's like calling fraud the fact that you're dying of lung cancer after getting your HPV vaccine. You have still been vaccinated against a strain of flu, that flu still had the potential to impact you significantly. The fact that you get a different viral infection is a strawman so big it borders on a mental disorder.

But they advertise them exactly the same as the ones that will.
These companies have open positions for prophets who can predict the future. Do you wish to apply for the role?
Re: Lets be antivax! by drinkypoo · 2019-01-27 02:57 · Score: 1

False. Targeting the wrong strain is something that you only find out after the fact.
After it's been made, but before flu season hits, actually. Try reading the news.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Lets be antivax! by jpaine619 · 2019-01-27 20:57 · Score: 1

Actually, it's typically not an 'overwhelmed your immune system' issue usually as much as 'the vaccine did not take,' or possibly 'guess what was among the germ definitions your immune system has decided to clean out!'
I'm not going to claim I'm any sort of a vaccine expert, but that seems to conflict with some of the literature I've read. It's certainly not applicable to every disease, but I do recall reading more than one paper which indicated that, even with vaccination, if one receives a viral load that is sufficiently large, it is possible to still get the disease.. One's immune system is simply overwhelmed.
Without vaccination the world would still have small pox.. More correctly, without very aggressive vaccination the world would still have small pox. If memory serves, in many areas small pox vaccination was absolutely mandatory, at least when cases of the disease had occurred nearby.
If we had allowed morons to decide, for themselves, the question of vaccination, I have no doubt it would still be present in the world. I do concur with many others that we should be constantly refining vaccinations to ensure that they aren't causing any long term side effects.
Re:Lets be antivax! by jpaine619 · 2019-01-27 21:02 · Score: 1

You've kind of answered your own question here. If the intelligent people refrain from sitting down next to someone who is "leaking measles all over the place" then the Darwinian principle would still hold.
Really? You think you can always spot people carrying a disease? I suggest you read about Typhoid Mary. That broad infected at least 51 people with Typhus, even though she showed absolutely no symptoms of the disease (she was a carrier). She was a cook and leaked typhus bacteria all over the food she was handling. She was held in isolation for 3 decades to prevent further infections to the public and then she died.
Re:Lets be antivax! by jpaine619 · 2019-01-27 21:08 · Score: 1

Measles is so contagious that if one person has it, 90% of the people close to that person who are not immune will also become infected.
Infected people can spread measles to others from four days before through four days after the rash appears."
And this is why I don't support the anti-vaxxer movement. I think I'm pretty damn conservative... personal freedom and all that jazz.. But I don't think I support the rights of people to walk through common areas leaking a virus that will persist in the air for hours and hours. Especially something so infectious that the hit rate is 90% (as you mentioned). We have the technology to prevent these infections.. People who deliberately make themselves a haven for the virus/bacteria and then want to spread that shit all over the place... yeah.. NO!.
I suspect that researchers would classify this as a type of "tragedy of the commons" where anti-vaxxers hope/assume that everyone else is inoculated so they can skate on the defenses of others.. That's bullshit, IMHO.
Re: Lets be antivax! by meglon · 2019-01-27 21:09 · Score: 1

The bible doesn't say using a computer is permissible, therefore using a computer is not permissible. Yet, here you are..... why do you hate god so much?

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Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Re: Lets be antivax! by jpaine619 · 2019-01-27 21:09 · Score: 1

Don't recall the bible saying the internet is permissible.. Nor electricity.. So.. yeah, you need to get off the interwebs. :)
Re: Lets be antivax! by stealth_finger · 2019-01-27 22:35 · Score: 2

Ask Roald Dahl's daughter about it https://www.indy100.com/articl...

Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it.

Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.

'Are you feeling all right?' I asked her. 'I feel all sleepy,' she said.

In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.

The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her.

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Re:Lets be antivax! by Cinnamon+Beige · 2019-01-28 02:56 · Score: 1

Actually, it's typically not an 'overwhelmed your immune system' issue usually as much as 'the vaccine did not take,' or possibly 'guess what was among the germ definitions your immune system has decided to clean out!'
I'm not going to claim I'm any sort of a vaccine expert, but that seems to conflict with some of the literature I've read. It's certainly not applicable to every disease, but I do recall reading more than one paper which indicated that, even with vaccination, if one receives a viral load that is sufficiently large, it is possible to still get the disease.. One's immune system is simply overwhelmed.
I was reading through lit from the CDC and medical journals, and been reading relatively recent work as well because while immunology isn't my field, it's close enough to some of what I am interested in that I do keep vaguely up with it. The immune system's also one of the few places where you've got a reasonable chance of making new discoveries of interest to people outside of your tiny niche--which includes the minor fact that its memory cells aren't immortal and all of them will clear out given a sufficiently long period of time (and disuse) & this seems to actually be a no-exceptions thing.
I didn't run across much talk of sufficient viral load overwhelming--but that given how much that takes, I would expect it unlikely to happen at exposure unless somebody's immune system is has been compromised...or they're doing something incredibly stupid like using a broth culture of the virus as a nasal wash. Or the immunity to the virus in question has already started fading, which is precisely what happens when the immune system is 'forgetting' a pathogen. It's not an all-at-once thing, like deleting a file from a computer, but caused by the memory cells that carry the data dying off...which they all do, if you live long enough. But good news, it'll work as a reminder and you can expect a faster recovery than if you weren't ever vaccinated.
Anyway. You do not need everybody immune to attain herd immunity...but you pretty much need pretty much all of the population who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated if you want to achieve it, because once you're through the percentage of people who cannot be vaccinated and those in whom the vaccination failed to take...there's very little space for antivaxxers and their woo. I do suspect, though, that morons' poor understanding of the reality of how this all works is a major reason for so little public discussion on duration of immunity and vaccine failures--I know that poor understanding has outright killed several HIV vaccines that had reached the point where they could have gone into human testing. (None of the candidates would have covered all strains, and it was pretty certain that you could expect somebody would manage to catch HIV via risky sex practices conducted under the belief they were majykally protected by the vaccine-talisman and successfully sue you for their own stupidity. I have not seen any good explanations for why, perhaps, we might want to ensure people have a realistic understanding of what vaccines are and aren't instead of ignoring and even occasionally encouraging them being confused with talismans against disease.)
Re: Lets be antivax! by r1348 · 2019-01-28 07:04 · Score: 1

By natural selection of the fittest, like other species.
Yes, higher intelligence gave Homo Sapiens advantages over other Homo species, including the capacity of having culture-driven intelligence instead of genetic intelligence (which would have taken a much longer time to evolve us to where we stand now).
Now, considering that we're all Homo Sapiens now, and we possess equal biological capacity for intelligence, one must reckon that what we call lack of intelligence is almost universally a lack of education, within the parameters of the human culture one individuals grows in. Therefore the progeny of uneducated individuals are still perfectly capable of being intelligent, if they receive a proper education. So suppressing the possibility to reproduce of "unintelligent" people is not only useless, but potentially damaging to the species at large, as it inevitably restricts the genetic pool.
Of course, one might be tempted to embrace the easy eugenetical solution (which solves nothing) as tackling the issues that lead to certain individuals (usually poor) to be also uneducated is a much bigger task. One obvious example of those who embraced this theory is the Nazis, but it manages to sneak in even in left-leaning thought circles, take the movie Idiocracy as an example.
Re:Lets be antivax! by jpaine619 · 2019-01-28 18:57 · Score: 1

Well, it is possible I'm simply mis-remembering what I read. I don't deny that possibility. It had to have been something I just came across, as most medical stuff isn't particularly interesting to me so I don't actively seek it out. I may read it if it catches me eye...
A thought did occur to me while reading your response; some vaccines aren't given to children until a certain age, unless things have changed recently. I recall taking my son in for some of his shots around the age of 2 (23 years ago, so....). That's certainly a consideration vis-a-vis the anti-vaxxers who can be dragging that crap around and manage to get babies sick before they even have the chance to be vaccinated.
Anyways, it seems we both agree that the anti-vaccine crowd are mostly ignorant, mislead, or morons. Take your pick :)
Re: Lets be antivax! by Carewolf · 2019-01-29 01:40 · Score: 1

You do know that the flu vaccine is efficient, right? It's just not efficient against all three strands of the flu and they try to guess which one will be the dominant one each year. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes not, but at least there's a chance of protection.
It is not even effective against a single major strain, but often only againt the exact mutation it has that year, because the flu is constantly changing to avoid our immune systems to become permanentiy immune to the flu, and the vaccines haven't found a truly effective way of getting around that yet.

Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by nospam007 · 2019-01-26 08:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

It would be a good beginning.
The bitch has thousands on her conscience.

Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by guruevi · 2019-01-26 09:25 · Score: 2

Vaccinations are available in the entire country. The problem is that state schools don't make vaccination a requirement everywhere because 'discrimination'.

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Re:Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 09:40 · Score: 5, Informative

Gee. You think that measles is minor? How about a little more information for you.
1990 - 630,000 deaths due to measles
2011 - 158,000 deaths due to measles
Due to vaccinations, measles for the first time in 2018 had under 100,000 deaths. In fact, it's possible that we can eradicate measles (smallpox was the first virus to be eradicated). But the anti-vax crowd are to put it politely idiots.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Bruce+Perens · 2019-01-26 10:05 · Score: 2

Moron AC wrote:

vaccinated kids getting autism
It is an unfortunate fact of our society that you need a license to cut hair, and not to be a parent.

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Bruce Perens.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Narcocide · 2019-01-26 10:20 · Score: 1

True that. My mom wouldn't have been able to get a license for either one.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 10:32 · Score: 5, Informative

Most kids are vaccinated (thankfully), so of course most children who develop autism have also been vaccinated. There is no difference in the autism rates of vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There is no correlation. And no medically plausible causal link.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/vaccines-and-autism/
Re:Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by nmb3000 · 2019-01-26 10:45 · Score: 4, Interesting

Put Jenny McCarthy in jail
It would be a good beginning.
Perhaps, but an even better beginning would be to start introducing legislation making certain vaccinations mandatory. Failure to comply should be a heavy fine or tax to help pay for bullshit like this. Continued failure to comply is direct child endangerment and society takes children away from parents for things like that. Oh, and manslaughter charges for any parents whose unvaccinated children are involved in the deaths of someone else, just to make sure the asshats know we're serious.
We need to stop tolerating irrational stupidity in this country under the guise of "freedom" or "religion". This is a public safety matter.

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"What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by MightyYar · 2019-01-26 11:24 · Score: 2

Rarely is measles fatal.
Only because people rarely get measles. The mortality rate is between 0.1 and 10%, depending on the country. Maybe 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10 is "rare" to you, but it seems pretty tragic to me when it is so preventable.

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W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 11:31 · Score: 1

"being autistic like the 1 in 59 that does get vaccinated"
And what about the 1 in 59 that does NOT get vaccinated?
If the rate is the same for both, there is no problem.
The rate IS the same for both.
There is NO problem.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by cheesybagel · 2019-01-26 11:46 · Score: 1

Hah. I remember talking with people in my grandparents age. I basically got that like for every 5-8 kid family, 1 or 2 died from measles before they were 5, and like 1 or 2 died from the flu before they were 2. Those do not seem like good numbers for me.
Especially when you consider both the effects of having measles and the fact that even today there is no actual cure for it. Either your body fights the disease or you die if you get infected. The only good option is vaccination.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by sjames · 2019-01-26 12:29 · Score: 1

If there was aa causal link between vaxination and autism, you would have a point, but there isn't.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Dayze!Confused · 2019-01-26 12:56 · Score: 1

Stating a single statistic doesn't give a full picture. What is the rate of autism in non-vaccinated children? Then we would have something to compare. If the rate is the same then it sort of disproves your point.

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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Dayze!Confused · 2019-01-26 13:03 · Score: 4, Informative

The statistic of 1 in 60 is for ALL children, vaccinated or not. A study done on 95,000 children, 15,000 of which were not vaccinated shows no link. There were actually more in the non-vaccinated group, but theorized that is due to parents who notice signs of autism before vaccination begins and then delay vaccinations due to fear that vaccines cause autism.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/s...

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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by careysub · 2019-01-26 13:05 · Score: 1

Hah. I remember talking with people in my grandparents age. I basically got that like for every 5-8 kid family, 1 or 2 died from measles before they were 5, and like 1 or 2 died from the flu before they were 2. Those do not seem like good numbers for me.
Especially when you consider both the effects of having measles and the fact that even today there is no actual cure for it. Either your body fights the disease or you die if you get infected. The only good option is vaccination.
LOL. 1 or 2 dead out of 5-8? Even wikipedia lists measles death rate at 0.2% of those infected. And people wonder why anti-vaxxers feel like they're being lied to by pro-vaxxers, and distrust their advice.
He is citing figures from a few generations ago O Ignorant AC.
A death rate of 1 in 500 is the death rate now with modern medicine, historically it was 10% or greater. But let's take that number which is making you "LOL", 0.2%.
There are about 4 million babies born in the U.S. each year. Without vaccination about 8,000 would be dying every year even with the best medicine, and tens of thousands would have crippling injuries. Laughing really, really loud now? And among those who can't use the vaccine because they are immune-compromised the death rate is about 1 in 3 even today, and put at risk by anti-vaxxers. Hey, killing 1/3 of the vulnerable because of your conspiracy theories. That's a real knee-slapper! Bet your busting a gut over that!

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Re:Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 13:19 · Score: 1

It's called survivorship bias. Few, if any, old deaf or blind people are posting on Slashdot.
I'm an old person, and I remember that measles (and mumps) used to be the main cause for blindness and deafness, as well as poor eyesight and partial hearing loss.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Applehu+Akbar · 2019-01-26 13:23 · Score: 1

...1 in 60 vaccinated kids getting autism...
Which is no different from the number of unvaccinated kids who get autism.
Autism was first described as a medical condition in 1943. Before that, no records were kept on who was autistic. They were simply people who were "eccentric" enough to occupy jobs that nobody else was suited for.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by dgatwood · 2019-01-26 13:25 · Score: 1

Rate of autism in vaccinated kids: 1 per 59, which is 17 per 1000. Compare for yourself.
Rate of autism in unvaccinated kids: 1 in 59.
Done.

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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by _Sharp'r_ · 2019-01-26 13:34 · Score: 1

The problem with your comparison is that the real issue is needing a license to cut hair, not parenting. The license only exists as a way to reduce competition in hair cutting, transferring resources from people who need haircuts (most everyone) to people who jumped through the hair cutting hoops (a small group with a lot of interest in keeping licensing requirements going), with a sizeable dead-weight loss to the economy from the wasted resources involved in getting the license and in less efficient hair cutting occurring along the way. In some States, the requirements for braiding hair are higher than those for becoming an EMT. How much sense does that make?
As for parental licenses, allowing the government to have the power to determine who gets to reproduce and who doesn't is quite the totalitarian power grab. Sure you want to put that kind of additional power to run your life in the hands of either local corrupt officials, or federal authorities like Trump and Pelosi? How about we start with something smaller and less important, like licenses to be allowed to speak about political issues, first? (Note, for the record I am opposed to that as well.)

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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by phantomfive · 2019-01-26 13:47 · Score: 1

Unvaccinated kids get autism, too. At the same rate as vaccinated kids, surprise!

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Re:Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by nmb3000 · 2019-01-26 14:13 · Score: 1

We? We?? Or do you mean a government thug doing the dirty work on your behalf? People like you who make these demands do so because you lack the spine to do anything yourself.
And how exactly would I take this matter into my own hands? Hide in movie theaters and prick kids with vaccination needles in the dark while they watch the latest brain-draining driven from Disney or Marvel?
And I sicken you? Ha.

Oh, and if a vaccination causes a reaction and a child is left crippled, or dead, who is going to accept responsibility for that?
Sorry, but this doesn't happen.. Outside of unhealthy people (immunocompromised or with existing alergies), common vaccines such as MMR and the flu are unequivocally safe. Even in the 0.0002% chance of an unknown allergy causing an anaphylaxis response, it doesn't always result in death or even any permanent condition. You have a better chance of being killed by a seat belt after your car went underwater, and most people are fine with seat belt laws.

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Re:Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 14:20 · Score: 1

I rarely get the flu, and when I do, I recover in a couple of days
You have never had the flu.
Re:Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by h33t+l4x0r · 2019-01-26 16:00 · Score: 1

Prisons are crowded enough without making it illegal to have dumb opinions.
Also, people who take medical advice from a playboy playmate over that of their doctor are just as much to blame.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 17:50 · Score: 1

There is a correlation, but not like anti-vaxxers think. People on the autistic spectrum are over represented in STEM fields, including medical research.
Autism causes vaccines!
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2019-01-26 21:04 · Score: 1

Those that got measles are certainly going to be at risk for other things...because they have stupid parents.

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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2019-01-26 21:05 · Score: 1

Gosh you would make a good scientist because nobody thought to look at that!

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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2019-01-26 21:08 · Score: 1

Most likely it is probably higher because such parents would be on the lookout for it above the average. It would be similar to the "Hollywood cluster" of autistic kids...as fed by moneyed people demanding diagnoses that match their expectations of this difficult to diagnose (especially border cases) disease.

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Re:Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2019-01-26 21:17 · Score: 1

She has retracted her position, and the Jenny McCarthy Death Clock has stopped counting needless deaths under her name, but the toll goes on.

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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by rl117 · 2019-01-26 21:58 · Score: 1

Likewise in the UK. For the first ones in primary school, a parent could accompany us. The girl who went in before me screamed her head off at the needle, so I was thankful for that at the time! Later ones like TB were done at secondary school.
Unless you're going to have a severe reaction to the vaccine, I don't think there are many valid medical reasons to opt out. None of the people my age, from any religious or cultural background were exempted. Everyone just got it routinely, and no one really thought much of it. It seems like it was at least two decades later before vaccines became "controversial" thanks to that idiot Wakefield, and most especially the media for whipping up the storm which followed. I count them all culpable for profiting from the deaths and misery resulting from their poor journalism.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by rl117 · 2019-01-26 22:17 · Score: 2

The death rate from measles in an unvaccinated and unchallenged population is just under 1 person in 2 (~48%). This for example would be the Americas or Pacific islands prior to contact with the West. The only reason it's less today is because of two factors. Firstly, evolution. In the West, where measles was endemic, we are genetically selected for tolerance to it. Same as for certain influenza strains, the black death, and other historical nasties. Why? Because all the other people are *dead*. We are the survivors who have the genetics to cope with it. Secondly, vaccination. If you get infected in the West, and you are unvaccinated, you benefit from everyone around you being vaccinated. The disease can't spread as far or as fast. Infections aren't as severe, you aren't being exposed to the same quantity of the virus or as many strains of it. You're in a protective bubble which isn't even visible. It's called "herd immunity", because the population as a whole benefits from the immunity as a result of vaccination, even if the vaccination rate is not 100%.
Death rates from measles in the West had come down to 1/200 (UK) - 1/500 (US) before the introduction of vaccination programmes. This was largely down to improvements in overall living standards (primarily nutrition) and medical care in the early-mid 20th century. Today, even those numbers are a memory. Today, we are complacent because we have forgotten how awful a killer measles can be. Aside from the deaths, also consider the chance of permanent brain damage, permanent hearing loss or partial loss, or other permanent damage to the body. It's not just a few itchy spots for a week, it's a deadly serious infection.
"Anti-vaxxers" aren't being lied to. They are simply profoundly ignorant about the disease and the risks involved. They are only safe today to make their stupid choices because everyone else gets vaccinated. Once a critical number opt out of being vaccinated, and herd immunity is compromised, then measles epidemics will return. This story is one of several, and it will continue to get worse until we sort out the issues with people not being vaccinated.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by rl117 · 2019-01-26 22:24 · Score: 1

I should also add for the first point that you also get a significant benefit of maternal antibodies, and if your mother had measles you will also gain protection this way as well. If your mother never had it or a related infection, and has no protective antibodies, you'll also be at a very increased risk. This is another factor why the death rate can get up to 1/2 in addition to the genetic aspect, and why the death rate is reduced in Western populations where measles has been historically endemic. We all have measles antibodies, and this typically reduces the severity of any infection.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by thegarbz · 2019-01-27 02:59 · Score: 1

Rate of autism in vaccinated kids: 1 per 59, which is 17 per 1000. Compare for yourself.
Yeah but the rate of ACs with severe mental retardation is close to 100% and your comment just pushed that even closer.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by dgatwood · 2019-01-27 18:44 · Score: 1

ROFL. Keep telling yourself that. Although the term autism did not exist until the early 20th century, there are records of autistic children in Russia back to the 16th century.

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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by houghi · 2019-01-28 01:03 · Score: 1

Also: If they do not understand the science part, why do parents rather have a dead kid than an autistic one?

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Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by _Sharp'r_ · 2019-01-28 11:13 · Score: 1

It takes 372 days of training on average to get a hair cutting license, compared to 33 days for an EMT.
You're really arguing that's needed? You could also just not go back to anyone who gives you a bad haircut, or even just read their reviews online....

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The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
Re: Put Jenny McCarthy in jail by MightyYar · 2019-01-29 08:24 · Score: 1

MMR is out of patent and is not particularly profitable, so you'll need to do better in the "motive" department.
A vaccine is superior to a treatment because it can prevent the disease altogether.
Your proposal would mean deliberately withholding vaccine and exposing people to disease for experimentation - this would be unethical.

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Re:30 in 7.4 million by ShanghaiBill · 2019-01-26 08:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

30 cases in 26 days in a State of 7.4 million people is a state of emergency?

Exactly. It would make so much more sense to wait, and let the situation spiral out of control before acting.

Impetus by jargonburn · 2019-01-26 08:57 · Score: 2

Hopefully, the energy from this outcry can be harnessed to push for better education about vaccines in areas where superstition and ignorance have lead to such a circumstance.

Re:Right wing religious nuts by PPH · 2019-01-26 09:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

Actually, Clark County is in the middle of Washington's opium country. Don't trust those vaccinations made by 'the man'. But hand me the needle with some unknown mixture of heroin and Fentanyl.

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Have gnu, will travel.

Re:Vaccinations are bad by mspohr · 2019-01-26 09:03 · Score: 5, Informative

Vaccines haven't contained mercury for many years. Fake news.
Vaccines don't cause autism. This has been extensively studies and debunked. Fake news.

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Re:Mix the anti vax idiots with by mspohr · 2019-01-26 09:04 · Score: 2, Informative

Immigrants are much more likely to have been vaccinated than the ignorant antivaxers in Washington state.

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Re:Mix the anti vax idiots with by ShanghaiBill · 2019-01-26 09:05 · Score: 5, Informative

the 10's of thousands of medical unknowns flowing across our open southern border and it is no wonder measles, tb and such are making a real come back

Measles vaccination rate in America: 92%
Measles vaccination rate in Mexico: 96%

Measles vaccination rates by country

Also, you may want to look at a map. Clark County, Washington is a long way from the southern border.

Clark County is a prosperous suburb of Portland, and not many poor Mexicans can afford to live there. It is only 4% Hispanic, and they are not causing this problem.

Re:30 in 7.4 million by Dutch+Gun · 2019-01-26 09:08 · Score: 5, Informative

Regarding your supposition that those ill were unimmunized... yep, spot on.

Age
1 to 10 years: 21 cases
11 to 18 years: nine cases
19 to 29 years: one case

Immunization status
Unverified: four cases
Unimmunized: 27 cases

Souce: Clark County website.

TL;DR: The whole outbreak appears to have been rather preventable, but you apparently can't immunize against stupidity and willful ignorance.

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Re:Mix the anti vax idiots with by coastwalker · 2019-01-26 09:14 · Score: 1

Migration across that boarder has not been this low since 1971. The measles outbreak is clearly due to low takeup of vacination.

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Re:Right wing religious nuts by ShanghaiBill · 2019-01-26 09:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

This outbreak is happening in liberal suburbs of Portland.

Anti-vaxxers do not follow the normal pattern of political polarization. Instead, it is common among extremists in either direction. Left-wing anti-vaxxers believe vaccinations are a corporate conspiracy. Right-wing anti-vaxxers believe vaccinations are a government conspiracy. Moderates on both sides vaccinate their kids.

Want to Ignore It by crow · 2019-01-26 09:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

I just want to ignore the whole thing. If someone who chose not to get vaccinated gets sick, just give them some healing crystals and leave them alone.

But unfortunately, not everyone who gets sick will be by choice. The vaccines aren't 100%, so some people may get sick even with immunization. Some infants are too young to get vaccinated, and they can easily die if they get sick. Some people have medical conditions that prevent immunization, and they are also at serious risk.

So much as I would like to ignore the sick and tell them "I told you so," we just can't do that. Also, it's not fair to not take care of kids just because their parents are stupid.

It's time to say get a vaccine or don't go to public schools. The only exceptions should be kids with compromised immune systems that can't be vaccinated. If parents don't like it, they can save the schools money and homeschool.

Re:Want to Ignore It by crow · 2019-01-26 10:01 · Score: 1

What do California, West Virginia, and Mississippi have in common? They're the states that do not give any non-medical exemptions for vaccination. So it's well-established that we don't have to grant exemptions. It's time to stop.
Re:Want to Ignore It by radarskiy · 2019-01-26 10:40 · Score: 1

"If someone who chose not to get vaccinated gets sick,"
The kids who will get sick didn't get to chose whether they get vaccinated. Their parents, on the other hand, were vaccinated years ago and are fine other than being homicidal maniacs.
Re:Want to Ignore It by bsolar · 2019-01-26 10:52 · Score: 2

It's time to say get a vaccine or don't go to public schools. The only exceptions should be kids with compromised immune systems that can't be vaccinated. If parents don't like it, they can save the schools money and homeschool.
School is not the only place where children interact, not to mention vaccination is not only relevant to children.
The question is whether unvaccinated people are a serious danger to the public health. The scientific consensus is yes, so vaccination has to be mandatory (except for medical reasons of course). Public health considerations must trump any personal freedom considerations.
Re:Want to Ignore It by mapkinase · 2019-01-26 14:14 · Score: 1

>But unfortunately, not everyone who gets sick will be by choice. The vaccines aren't 100%, so some people may get sick even with immunization
If this happens, it happens.
from the other hand, I googled this:
> What percentage of the population should be vaccinated to avoid outbreaks?
>In order to prevent an outbreak, at least four out of those five people, or 80 percent of the population in general, should be immune
Interesting that 80% is just slightly above 77%.
The whole thing is about nothing. Let the people be.

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Re:Want to Ignore It by DethLok · 2019-01-26 22:01 · Score: 1

Yep.
No jab no play.
https://www2.health.vic.gov.au...
And that's just one of the six states of Australia, most others have a similar scheme.
Re:Want to Ignore It by DethLok · 2019-01-26 22:13 · Score: 1

and there is this, also:
https://www.mydr.com.au/kids-t...
Strayan's understand vaccination.
And if you don't, well, your kids die.
Re:Want to Ignore It by PCM2 · 2019-01-27 11:44 · Score: 1

It's time to say get a vaccine or don't go to public schools. The only exceptions should be kids with compromised immune systems that can't be vaccinated. If parents don't like it, they can save the schools money and homeschool.
It's very likely that the same population that chooses not to vaccinate their kids also tends to home school.

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Re:Right wing religious nuts by serviscope_minor · 2019-01-26 09:20 · Score: 2

It's fine when people on the wings agree for the same reasons: some things are just obvious. If people on the wings agree with each other for radically different reasons (and disagree with the middle) that's a pretty good indication they're being massive dumbasses.

See also Brexit.

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SJW n. One who posts facts.

Re:Right wing religious nuts by guruevi · 2019-01-26 09:27 · Score: 2

>50% of people voted for Brexit. Calling people stupid because they have a certain political view, is in itself stupid.

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Please consider the immuno-compromised. by Bruce+Perens · 2019-01-26 09:28 · Score: 5, Informative

A family we're friendly with have the most wonderful daughter, who went through a brain tumor and had chemotherapy until her brain was developed enough to use focused radiation to get rid of the thing. She's fine now, but for years she was immuno-compromised. An un-vaccinated child in school could have been a disease vector leading to her death.

People all around you have chemo, get autologous bone marrow transplants and spend a week with no immune system, etc. During that, your unwillingness to vaccinate can kill them. Not that killing your own kid is any nicer. Please get your family all of their shots.

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Bruce Perens.

Re:Please consider the immuno-compromised. by guruevi · 2019-01-26 09:48 · Score: 1

I'm fine with people not getting vaccines but then the State should also not be required to admit them to a school unless there is a valid reason and a panel of independent doctors can provide proof to that effect.

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Re:Please consider the immuno-compromised. by Bruce+Perens · 2019-01-26 10:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

School is one thing, but there are many venues where two children can come into contact. There isn't really a legitimate reason not to vaccinate. Not any substantial religious reason - people are smart enough to make them kosher and halal, not that you are eating them in the first place. And the various conspiracy theorists have blood on their hands.

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Bruce Perens.
Re:Please consider the immuno-compromised. by mhotchin · 2019-01-26 13:38 · Score: 2

You have to remember that the people deciding not to vaccinate are, in fact, complete sociopaths. A common 'rebuttal' to your line of reasoning is "I will not set my child on fire in order to keep your child warm." Yep, they actually think that the vanishingly small chance of an adverse reaction outweighs the substantial chance that measles would be a *death sentence* for cancer patients - the death rate among cancer patients catching measles is about 50%.
Re:Please consider the immuno-compromised. by ceoyoyo · 2019-01-26 19:25 · Score: 1

No no, he's on to something. People have a right to choose.
People who choose not to get vaccinated should just forfeit the right to use public resources. Like schools and hospitals. And streets, sidewalks, public right of ways, etc. Maybe put up some plastic sheeting to keep their germs contained too. You could even have some kind of sign to indicate the situation. This one is kind of pretty: https://goo.gl/images/iV5tXV
Re: Please consider the immuno-compromised. by ceoyoyo · 2019-01-27 04:45 · Score: 1

Seems reasonable, yes. I don't know how Americans work it, but in Canada famers who can show a vehicle is for use mostly on their own property don't have to pay fuel tax, which supports road infrastructure. You could arrange something similar for the unvaccinated. They'd only have to pay for things like water, sewer, defence... nothing that they wouldn't use as they were confined to their own property.

30 cases among 474,643 people by Futurepower(R) · 2019-01-26 09:28 · Score: 1

There are 474,643 people in Clark County.

The governor is not communicating perfectly, but he is helping people understand the need for immunization.

Will someone let these parents know that by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 09:29 · Score: 1

they are lucky that their kids weren't hit with some really nasty...like polio.

Why some people doubt the 200+ years of science and technology behind vaccinations is beyond me. In two centuries, vaccines have been successfully used on numerous occasions to eradicate diseases (like polio) from the US and to limit or control other diseases (like measles).

Frankly, if these parents do not trust vaccinations, then why bother sending their children to make use of other modern medical facilities?

Re:Will someone let these parents know that by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 10:12 · Score: 1

Because they haven't seen a case of polio in their lifetime.
So they don't even know about the hellish times we had before with all these diseases.
All they think is "some pornstar said my kid has autism because of vaccines".
That means they can blame someone else instead of their own eggs being past their sell by date.

Use single-dose vaccines. by Futurepower(R) · 2019-01-26 09:30 · Score: 1

Only multi-dose vaccines contain Mercury. You can use single-dose vaccines.

Re:Use single-dose vaccines. by sjames · 2019-01-26 14:12 · Score: 1

Further, the form in thimerosal is eliminated in urine. The forms that are concerning bio-accumulate.
Re:Use single-dose vaccines. by meglon · 2019-01-26 14:17 · Score: 1

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesaf...

Measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccines do not and never did contain thimerosal.
Varicella (chickenpox), inactivated polio (IPV), and pneumococcal conjugate vaccines have also never contained thimerosal.
Influenza (flu) vaccines are currently available in both thimerosal-containing (for multi-dose vaccine vials) and thimerosal-free versions.

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Re:Vaccine and Autism Link Is Rare But Does Happen by Shikaku · 2019-01-26 10:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

The first word of that URL after the domain completely invalidates what you just said. Also, frankly, fuck you because you are hurting people indirectly by trying to convince them that vaccines are bad when they save a lot more lives then they could ever hurt, in all of history, ever possible.

Not just debunked - **PROVEN** to be fraudulent by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 10:09 · Score: 5, Informative

Andrew Wakefield et al concocted a scheme based on "litigation based testing":

Clear evidence of falsification of data should now close the door on this damaging vaccine scare ... Who perpetrated this fraud? There is no doubt that it was Wakefield. Is it possible that he was wrong, but not dishonest: that he was so incompetent that he was unable to fairly describe the project, or to report even one of the 12 children's cases accurately? No. A great deal of thought and effort must have gone into drafting the paper to achieve the results he wanted: the discrepancies all led in one direction; misreporting was gross. Moreover, although the scale of the GMC's 217 day hearing precluded additional charges focused directly on the fraud, the panel found him guilty of dishonesty concerning the study's admissions criteria, its funding by the Legal Aid Board, and his statements about it afterwards.

and

In a BMJ follow-up article on 11 January 2011,[24] Deer said that based upon documents he obtained under Freedom of information legislation, Wakefield—in partnership with the father of one of the boys in the study—had planned to launch a venture on the back of an MMR vaccination scare that would profit from new medical tests and "litigation driven testing"

Yep - the "father" of the "vaccines cause autism" HOAX seems to have agreed to split the profits with the families of the children in his "study".

How much were those projected profits?

Well, now that you asked:

the $43 million predicted yearly profits would come from marketing kits for "diagnosing patients with autism" and that "the initial market for the diagnostic will be litigation-driven testing of patients with AE [autistic enterocolitis, an unproven condition concocted by Wakefield] from both the UK and the US"

Finally:

In October 2012, research published in PNAS, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, identified Wakefield's 1998 paper as the most cited retracted scientific paper, with 758 citations, and gave the "reason for retraction" as "fraud".

The Lancet article that Wakefield used to start this scam has been retracted.

Better suggestion by Roger+W+Moore · 2019-01-26 10:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

A more fitting action would be to send her to the affected county to care for the infected where she can see firsthand how bad measles really is. I'd offer her the vaccine before she goes too - it's amazing how many people actually believe in science when their survival is on the line regardless of what they may say publicly.

Ultimately that might undo some of the damage she has caused, far more so than simply putting her in jail.

Re: Right wing religious nuts by PPH · 2019-01-26 10:14 · Score: 1

positive thinking

I'm allergic to that.

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Have gnu, will travel.

Willful ignorance, not stupidity by Roger+W+Moore · 2019-01-26 10:21 · Score: 1

you apparently can't immunize against stupidity and willful ignorance

We immunize against stupidity through education. Like any immunization, it's not 100% effective but it provides herd immunity since educated friends and family also help you avoid stupid mistakes. Willful ignorance is the real problem.

Re:Willful ignorance, not stupidity by Roger+W+Moore · 2019-01-26 18:06 · Score: 1

No, we cure ignorance through education. Education cannot cure stupidity but, by learning from others what to do in certain situations, you can be immunized against its effects in those situations.

Re:30 in 7.4 million by radarskiy · 2019-01-26 10:24 · Score: 2

"30 cases in 26 days in a State of 7.4 million people is a state of emergency?"

In 2017, there were 120 recorded cases in USA.
In 2018, there were 349 recorded cases in USA.

So yes, 30 cases in 26 days in one county is a dramatic increase.

Re:Vaccinations are bad by quantaman · 2019-01-26 10:27 · Score: 5, Informative

They contain mercury which is a neurotoxin.

Water contains hydrogen, which is an explosive.

Fortunately, chemistry doesn't work like that or smokers would die of explosions instead of lung cancer.

They also cause autism.

There is zero evidence to this.

And thiomersal was removed from most vaccines, not because there was any evidence it was harmful, it's just what the conspiracy theorists and antivax con-artists latched onto so the CDC asked manufactures to remove them. Of course the CDC missed the point, the antivaxxers went after thiomersal not because they have any evidence, they were just against vaccines and it was the easiest target.

Removing thiomersal didn't cause them to trust vaccines, it just caused them to switch to a harder to remove target.

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Re:Mix the anti vax idiots with by quantaman · 2019-01-26 10:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

the 10's of thousands of medical unknowns flowing across our open southern border and it is no wonder measles, tb and such are making a real come back

Measles vaccination rate in America: 92%
Measles vaccination rate in Mexico: 96%

Measles vaccination rates by country

Also, you may want to look at a map. Clark County, Washington is a long way from the southern border.

Clark County is a prosperous suburb of Portland, and not many poor Mexicans can afford to live there. It is only 4% Hispanic, and they are not causing this problem.

LOL, Mexicans literally have to worry about sick Americans bringing diseases into their country!

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Scared of Mercury? Okay, avoid Mercury in vaccines by Futurepower(R) · 2019-01-26 10:34 · Score: 1

What you said seems correct to me. But...

People who are scared of Mercury can have vaccines without Mercury.

Maybe we should not eat tuna.

Re:30 in 7.4 million by radarskiy · 2019-01-26 10:35 · Score: 1

"you apparently can't immunize against stupidity and willful ignorance"

The worst of it is the stupid parents are all immunized; it's the kids that are going to die.

Re:Vaccine and Autism Link Is Rare But Does Happen by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 10:57 · Score: 1

Dude. A little research, please. Like, check it out on Snopes at least:

"Zimmerman, a scientist with serious credentials who was once a government expert on vaccines, believes that narrow circumstances might exist in which the combination of pre-existing mitochondrial dysfunction and vaccination could trigger ASD. This view is not held by many scientists, and from a scientific-evidence standpoint it remains speculative. The 2018 deposition given by Zimmerman regarding the 2007 sequence of events during omnibus proceedings was compelled by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., an anti-vaccine activist with a dubious commitment to scientific accuracy, and Rolf Hazlehurst, a litigant in one of the omnibus cases.

"Finally, it bears mentioning that Dr. Zimmerman supports vaccination. “As a pediatric neurologist and member of the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Neurology Society, the American Academy of Neurology and the American Neurological Association, I strongly support the importance of vaccines for all children,” he wrote in his statement:"

https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/01/21/witness-view-vaccines-autism/

Re:Vaccinations are bad by malkavian · 2019-01-26 11:11 · Score: 1

Hmm.. I think the flu shots still contain thiomersal, which has an organic derivative of mercury in it, but that's no problem. If you worried about the individual atoms that comprised a molecule, instead of its molecular traits, you'd never have salt (which is essential to humans), as it would both explode and poison you with the sodium and the chlorine that makes it up.
Thiomersal is safe as a molecule.

Make it a criminal offense by stevent1965 · 2019-01-26 11:19 · Score: 1, Interesting

The best I can say about so-called anti-vaxxers is that they are ignorant and uneducated. But I'll give them the benefit of doubt. Perhaps some do hold religious or moral objections to vaccinations. Well and good. But there should be consequences associated with behavior that affects society in general. Think of drunk driving laws. If a child who has not been vaccinated contracts a disease the vaccine could prevent, the parent(s) should be prosecuted for criminal endangerment. In fact, it should be as automatic as failing a sobriety test. If your kid gets measles and has not been vaccinated, you should face fines and possible jail time, increasing with successive occurrences. Please don't toss out the red herring of health care access. Lack of it does not apply to early childhood vaccines.

Re:Make it a criminal offense by serviscope_minor · 2019-01-26 23:21 · Score: 1

Perhaps some do hold religious or moral objections to vaccinations.
That doesn't make it any better. Freedom of religion doesn't include the right of human sacrafice. In general personal freedom does not extend to causing harm to others.
Well and good. But there should be consequences associated with behavior that affects society in general. Think of drunk driving laws. If a child who has not been vaccinated contracts a disease the vaccine could prevent, the parent(s) should be prosecuted for criminal endangerment. In fact, it should be as automatic as failing a sobriety test.
That would be a start but it doesn't cover all the cases where the idiots infect some poor sod and it's impossible to figure out who was the particular vector.
It's illegal to shoot into a crowd even if you manage ot not hit anyone, after all. I don't think religios or moral values should get people off the hook of reckless endangerment even if you can't prove a specific instance of harm beyond reasonable doubt.

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SJW n. One who posts facts.
Re:Make it a criminal offense by stevent1965 · 2019-01-27 04:11 · Score: 1

I agree it's almost impossible to prove who was infectious and spread the disease. But it's incontrovertible that if someone has not been vaccinated and does contract the disease, they are culpable. If they've been vaccinated and still get sick, that's just bad luck, but not criminally irresponsible.

Re:Right wing religious nuts by malkavian · 2019-01-26 11:19 · Score: 1

34% of people voted for Brexit. About 32% voted against it. The rest hadn't a clue what it actually was they were supposed to be voting for (the options given were no change, or magical unicorns that crap gold and make all your problems disappear).
That's why lots are disgruntled, as it's not really a representative number, considering abstentions. Certainly not a good figure to base changing the direction of an entire nation on.

And some people have political views that make absolutely no rational sense (which is how politicians get in that make no rational sense). I heartily approve calling them out on that and saying bluntly that they make no rational sense.
All sides of the political spectrum have these kinds of people in, because they can be charming at times.

Re:30 in 7.4 million by burtosis · 2019-01-26 11:19 · Score: 1

You can't immunize babies for measles under one year of age, and a very small subset of the population with compromised immune systems. Further not every last person who gets the mmr vaccine develops the same level of immunity. All of these people have thier lives riding on the people who have no valid excuse to help prevent them from becoming ill and suffering possible permemant damage or death. Even people who survive, especially children, can be affected years later called subacute sclerosing panencephalitis or SSPE. You get an incurable brain infection, seizures, deteriorating function, and then (so far) a 100% chance of death. It's not even as uncommon as once thought. So even survivors don't have a rosy future.

Re:Vaccine and Autism Link Is Rare But Does Happen by jouassou · 2019-01-26 11:27 · Score: 1

If you want a real way to prevent autism: make sure pregnant mothers get enough vitamin D. Seriously.

Remember the good old days by NerdENerd · 2019-01-26 11:43 · Score: 1

when child mortality was 66%, only one in three children got to see their 5th birthday? The problem is that these idiots are not old enough to remember polo and iron lungs.

Re:Illegals by NerdENerd · 2019-01-26 11:44 · Score: 1

It is the anti vaxxer tards, not the illegals.

Out of sight out of mind... by burtosis · 2019-01-26 11:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

Americans have it easy today. Women don't die in child birth in any significant numbers. You don't need to have 6 babies to see 3 reach thier teenage years. Almost no one gets horrible diseases that kill, cripple, disfigure, and often cause unending pain for the remainder of your life. When every person either had family or friends that they watched contract horrible diseases like polio, they were scared shitless of suffering the same fate. When the first vaccines came out, people lined up around the block and people fought shortages to keep up with demand. It was hailed as a miracle, and people couldn't believe they might finally be free of these unimaginable afflictions plaguing humanity.

Nowadays, with vaccinations keeping these diseases under control, very few have had a family member who has been crippled, had a lifelong friend die, or even seen the afflicted in person. They lack the imagination necessary to place themselves in this world lost to medical progress and have become complacent, ignorant, and lazy with regard to the seriousness of the situation. It's absolutely disgusting.

Re:Out of sight out of mind... by HiThere · 2019-01-26 12:23 · Score: 1

Don't worry. As one antibiotic after another is rendered useless by overuse, we'll be back in a situation similar to the in a few decades.
Well, that is a worst case projection...no, a worst case projection has it next year, but that one's really unlikely. But the best case of we keep coming up with working antibiotics that don't have horrendous side effects, isn't very likely either.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Out of sight out of mind... by burtosis · 2019-01-26 12:40 · Score: 1

This is a different but serious problem to antivaxxers. The majority of antibiotic resistance comes from agricultural practices. Animals are fed antibiotics even when healthy so that even more can be crammed into smaller spaces, and increase yields slightly. Short of a weapons grade bioengineering lab, this ranks among the fastest ways to reduce the effectiveness of antibiotics. If you want to help the best ways are to let your politicans know, and to purchase meats that are antibiotic free. Oftentimes these antibiotic free meats don't even cost more at the grocery store.
Re:Out of sight out of mind... by phantomfive · 2019-01-26 13:54 · Score: 1

When the first vaccines came out, people lined up around the block and people fought shortages to keep up with demand. It was hailed as a miracle, and people couldn't believe they might finally be free of these unimaginable afflictions plaguing humanity.
Unsurprisingly, there were anti-vaxers at the beginning, too. They were afraid they would actually get the disease from the vaccine.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:Out of sight out of mind... by HiThere · 2019-01-26 17:31 · Score: 1

Whether it's a different problem or a part of the same problem depends on how you frame the problem. If you frame it as "People believing fakes and frauds rather than actual experts in the field" then it's the same problem. I.e. people are afraid that their kids aren't being treated correctly, so they get worried and look for an answer outside of the officially correct channels. If the officially correct channels lied less often this would be more unreasonable.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Out of sight out of mind... by rl117 · 2019-01-26 22:56 · Score: 1

And, to be fair, they aren't entirely wrong about that. Since the vaccine *is* the virus, in an inert or attenuated form, there is a small possibility of that happening. You are getting a low grade infection, or at the very least a response to something mimicking an infection. So if your immune system is compromised, or there's a problem with a particular vaccine batch, you could be put at risk.
Overall, the benefits outweigh the risks, and today we have very good quality control, so the argument is not very convincing. But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand; there is some valid science behind it.

Re:30 in 7.4 million by cheesybagel · 2019-01-26 12:06 · Score: 1

It is an easily transmittable virus. That is the problem if you don't control it early on.

Re:30 in 7.4 million by cheesybagel · 2019-01-26 12:06 · Score: 1

Also those WHO stats include vaccinated people that's why the rates are so low. But try telling anti-vaxxers that.

You can totally immunize against stupidity by rsilvergun · 2019-01-26 12:10 · Score: 1, Informative

that's what compulsory education is for. What's hard to immunize against is propaganda. There's a big anti-science movement in America being pushed by corporate interests that don't want to pay for things like public health.

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Overreacting? But... by HiThere · 2019-01-26 12:19 · Score: 1

To me this seems like overreacting, as measles did me no permanent harm. My ancestors were exposed to measles from way back. Other groups of people have found it fatal. Even in my group (North-Western Europeans) measles has been associated with massive increases in still-births and deformed births. And I'm not sure just how non-fatal it was. That I lived through it and my ancestors did, doesn't say how many didn't, even as recently as one generation back.

I suspect what should be done is strict quarantine with strong enforcement and forbidding any non-vaccinated child from going to school. But perhaps the governor didn't have an option to do that, and *could* declare a state of emergency.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Re:Right wing religious nuts by serviscope_minor · 2019-01-26 12:20 · Score: 1

>50% of people voted for Brexit.

No, 50% of those who voted. Thing is there's quite a few people now who were ineleligible to vote at the time who are now of voting age and they're not happy.

And you know, the referendum wasn't binding. Binding referendums have much tighter rules and if it was binding it would have to be rerun because of fraud by the leave side. Trying to claim there's some sort of mandate is a real subversion of democracy.

There's a reason that binding referendums have tight rules. The leave camp blatantly lied and they're trying to pretend that's OK.

Calling people stupid because they have a certain political view, is in itself stupid.

Some people have the "political view" that I should be murdered, so yeah fuck you.

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SJW n. One who posts facts.

Re:Vaccinations are bad by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-26 12:39 · Score: 1

Alright, you fucking moron, Thimerosal contains mercury, but guess what? Table salt contains chlorine! And it's even worse than that: water contains the extremely explosive gas HYDROGEN! Why are you worried about Thimerosal when salt and water contain chemicals that can LITERALLY KILL YOU?

Besides, if you actually read the shit you linked to, you'd find out that all of the standard vaccines for kids in the US and EU haven't contained Thimerosal for 14+ years now. How do you explain the autism now, bitch?

Re:Vaccinations are bad by jythie · 2019-01-26 12:42 · Score: 1

Ahm.. that very link states that Thiomersal was removed from childhood vaccines decades ago.

Thanks, anti-vaxx shitheads by JustAnotherOldGuy · 2019-01-26 12:50 · Score: 1

Lets have a big round of applause for the anti-vaxx shitheads who've managed to help bring back a dreadful and deadly disease through their own ignorance and stupidity.

So yeah, don't listen to 99.99999999% of all epidemiologists, doctors, and researchers, instead listen to a known genius like Jenny McCarthy, a washed up MTV dating game hostess.

Her film 'career' (cough) in such amazing works such as Diamonds, Scream 3, and Santa Baby means that she surely knows better than all those egghead scientists. I mean really, have you seen the way they dress? Lab coats are soooo utilitarian.

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LOL? by Latent+Heat · 2019-01-26 12:55 · Score: 1

What's so funny, dude?

Yes, the people of Mexico should have a proper level of concern if there is an outbreak of illness among their northern neighbors that could affect them.

Re:LOL? by quantaman · 2019-01-26 13:26 · Score: 3, Informative

What's so funny, dude?
Yes, the people of Mexico should have a proper level of concern if there is an outbreak of illness among their northern neighbors that could affect them.
It's funny because of all the racist rhetoric in the US about "dirty Mexicans" bringing in diseases.
And yes, it's perfectly appropriate to "LOL" about serious issues.
What's inappropriate is laughing at the suffering of others or using humour to disguise offensive views.
But using humour to point out a particular racist argument is flawed? That's perfectly legit.

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I stole this Sig

Get Child protective services on the case by Applehu+Akbar · 2019-01-26 13:03 · Score: 1

I would like to see refusing to vaccinate your kids defined as child abuse. CPS rates you as an unfit parent and takes your kids away.

Re:Right wing religious nuts by Dayze!Confused · 2019-01-26 13:13 · Score: 3, Informative

Those aren't mutually exclusive. Clark County is SW Washington's conservative sinkhole.

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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]

Re:30 in 7.4 million by careysub · 2019-01-26 13:14 · Score: 2

30 cases in 26 days in a State of 7.4 million people is a state of emergency?

Well the fire was confined initially to just a pot on the stove, but that was very localized, so we didn't feel it required any immediate action. Then once the cabinets above the stove caught fire, it still seemed really localized, do we thought we should just wait and see. Once we forced out of the kitchen entirely we decided to call the fire department, if it still continued to spread. Well once the living room drapes went up, we thought that emergency action probably was needed, and we did call the fire department, after we finished eating lunch on the lawn.

What couldn't they save our house? Effing gubbmint incompetents.

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Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj

Re:Right wing religious nuts by Dayze!Confused · 2019-01-26 13:19 · Score: 2

The outbreak is in Clark County, the conservative sinkhole of SW Washington and the Portland Metro area. It is across the Columbia River, in a different state. They are also responsible for not allowing a new bridge to be built across the Columbia because there would be tolls on the bridge to pay for it, just like there were for the original bridge.

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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]

Re:Mix the anti vax idiots with by careysub · 2019-01-26 13:21 · Score: 1

And most vague unsupported general claims about statistics are just BS.

Your move.

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Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj

I just noticed something by Applehu+Akbar · 2019-01-26 13:28 · Score: 1

All of the antivax cranks in this thread are ACs. What does this say about their willingness to debate?

Re:I just noticed something by Shikaku · 2019-01-26 14:21 · Score: 1

I think they are paid informants trying to stir the pot by putting out propaganda that is ultimately harmful. It works because, well, look at the article, it won't even touch 99% of the people but if it kills 1% it's still a victory because the targeted people died to that propaganda.
Re:I just noticed something by drinkypoo · 2019-01-27 02:13 · Score: 1

"No ... what does it say about the climate of fear amongst health professionals who want to speak out?"
Literally nothing, since you can retain your anonymity on slashdot by using a throwaway email account, and a pseudonym.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:I just noticed something by Applehu+Akbar · 2019-01-27 07:21 · Score: 1

Spotted the antivaxer! If I were a millennial, how could I have had measles in 1956? In actual fact, my fiftieth birthday was the exact day that Hale-Bopp reached its maximum brightness.

Re:Right wing religious nuts by _Sharp'r_ · 2019-01-26 13:39 · Score: 1

Well, since nobody in the UK was allowed to join the EU as presently constituted (as opposed to a much more limited precursor institution), it seems that it's a one vote for not being in it compared to 0 to be in it.

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The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.

Re:Right wing religious nuts by _Sharp'r_ · 2019-01-26 13:41 · Score: 1

Sheesh... "allowed to vote to join"....

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The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.

Re:Right wing religious nuts by _Sharp'r_ · 2019-01-26 13:46 · Score: 1

Sorry, but Clark County is populated mostly by people who prefer Democrats, including voting for Democrats 52% to 48% in the last election. You are misinformed, probably because they may not be quite as left-wing progressive as other nearby urban areas, although that doesn't make them a conservative bastion.

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The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.

Re:Vaccinations are bad by meglon · 2019-01-26 14:13 · Score: 1

.... you'd never have salt .... as it would both explode and poison you....

My doctor sure as hell makes it seem that that's going to be the end result of my salt consumption.