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Hawaii Lawmakers Chewing on Ban of Plastic Utensils, Bottles and Food Containers (hawaiinewsnow.com)
Plastic bags are out. Plastic straws are on their way out. Now Hawaii lawmakers want to take things a big step further. From a report: They're considering an outright ban on all sorts of single-use plastics common in the food and beverage industry, from plastic bottles to plastic utensils to plastic containers. Senate Bill 522 has already passed through two committees and is on its way to two more. Supporters say it's an ambitious and broad measure that would position Hawaii as a leader in the nation -- and ensure that Hawaii's oceans have a fighting chance as the global plastic pollution problem worsens. But others worry about the practicality of such a proposal.
It's a great idea so long as they still permit compostables. Compostable plastics are produced from renewable sources, so they even have the potential to be carbon-neutral. They do have to be tested to make sure they only break down into harmless compounds, though. We should be doing this everywhere.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
This is basically foisting a problem largely caused by large-scale manufacturing and the wastes of those processes, onto the consumer. The majority of this kind of waste isn't consumer waste, it's from businesses.
We've had what, 50-60 years now where companies have done whatever they wanted with packaging and we can see the results. The problem is that the financial interests of the polluter (business) don't align with good of society or the financial interests of the public, because ultimately we the tax payer are going to get stuck cleaning up this shit.
no get yourself glasses.
So the islanders would prefer to have their beaches contain hidden shards of glass from broken bottles, than to have to pick up a few discarded pieces of plastic.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Also, the government should never have banned lead-based paint or gasoline. Drunk driving can be handled by private industry putting breathalyzers on the steering wheel if the buyer wants it. The FDA should be abolished.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Lots of compostable, corn-based or other plant-based single use silverware avalible now. It's about 10-15% more expensive, but right now the cost is about $free so,
Paper bags are pretty popular in larger cities, Safeway near my house has tried to introduce thicker plastic bags to meet the "Reusable" mandate by the city, but locals are still requesting paper.
moox. for a new generation.
Plastic utensils are off course overused, but will you make sure both the food and health industry sanitizes whatever other method available properly?
What is the cost of acquiring, operating and inspecting an autoclave system with the volume required for eg. a McDonalds. How will we deal with the massive amounts of trash and green house gasses metal utensils will generate for both more resource intensive production, heavier transportation and proper disposal (as well as people simply throwing them into the landfill-destined garbage)?
Perhaps we need to develop non-plastic, compostable utensils, but the same problem there applies, it gets wet in storage, it starts rotting, you get one in your kids' happy meal, who is liable for the hundreds of people with fungal infections and death if you can even identify the source? I heard fairly recently (not sure if it was local, national or international) about an asian restaurant getting in big trouble for reusing wooden chopsticks and potentially making a bunch of people sick.
These are very hard questions to ask, we've developed massive industries providing massive economic benefits on the back of something as simple as a plastic straw and eating utensils.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
How can some lawmaker there tell Americans what to do?
I always wonder how this really works in the food service industry, beyond the customer-facing stuff. Much of the single-use product in the kitchen is to prevent contamination. It would be great though if Starbucks stopped pouring my iced tea in a disposable plastic cup before pouring that into my reusable cup though.
Hawaii will not be able to pull this off though. They have so little local packaging (or production) of products that they lack any control of what is in the grocery stores. Maybe they can just tax it extra to pay for the rail...
This is correct. Example:
0.001% of the plastic in the ocean is plastic straws
60% is discarded fishing equipment
The neo-liberal reaction was to ban plastic straws. This is pure propaganda, and in their ignorance makes middle class people feel good about themselves.
Normal people (in aggregate) simply don't consume enough of literally anything (including gasoline) to make an impact.
The super-rich cause the vast majority of all environmental degradation. The rich foul the environment, and we have to clean it up when that's even possible.
Everyone could switch to electric cars ... won't make a fucking bit of difference.
Nothing you do as an individual will make any difference.
No consumer choices you make will make any difference.
Nothing we do in aggregate as normal people will be any difference.
We have to rein in the super-rich. They damage our environment and make real democracy impossible. Basically they can't be allowed to exist any more.
There is no problem with plastic. There is only a problem with garbage being dumped at sea. Changing packaging to reduce our standard of living doesn't address the problem of garbage being dumped at sea.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Compostable plastics are produced from renewable sources, so they even have the potential to be carbon-neutral.
There is no requirement that something that is compostable be produced from renewable sources. It can be but it does not have to be. Being compostable just means it can break down safely into compost. And just because something is derived from renewable materials does not automatically mean it is carbon neutral. If the energy inputs to process the material are not carbon neutral then it is unlikely the product itself will be.
They do have to be tested to make sure they only break down into harmless compounds, though.
I think you are conflating biodegradable plastic with compostable. Compostable is a subset of biodegradable. A product can be biodegradable but not break down into usable compost. If it cannot be turned into compost then it isn't compostable.
I remember paper straws. They usually lasted for a whole drink - and remember back then a drink was maybe 12oz at most; not these ridiculous quart size things. And when you got another one, you got a fresh straw. Or one just didn't use a straw.
But let's think about why they're called "straws" in the first place. I don't know expensive it would be to go back to rye - I'm sure the farmers would love it.
All this plastic shit is because it's cheap, you can form it into just about into any shape, and it's light - great for shipping. And then there'sthe convenience factor: use and dispose.
Plastic utensils are off course overused, but will you make sure both the food and health industry sanitizes whatever other method available properly?
Such requirements are already in place. Ever eaten at a non-fast food restaurant? It's a solved problem. A dishwasher is entirely adequate when dealing with "real" utensils.
What is the cost of acquiring, operating and inspecting an autoclave system with the volume required for eg. a McDonalds.
Zero because they don't need one. There are perfectly viable alternatives to plastic utensils. Not to mention that most of their menu does not require cutlery of any description. In case you weren't aware most of their menu is sandwiches and finger food.
How will we deal with the massive amounts of trash and green house gasses metal utensils will generate for both more resource intensive production, heavier transportation and proper disposal (as well as people simply throwing them into the landfill-destined garbage)?
Nobody is going to use disposable metal utensils. Nobody is even proposing that idea.
Perhaps we need to develop non-plastic, compostable utensils
Already done. They exist today.
Most ocean pollution comes from litter in fast-growing coastal cities in Asia, Africa and South America. It would make a lot more sense to deal with litter in emerging markets than to tinker with the kind of waste that goes into rich country waste treatment facilities. I say this as a professional recycler and environmentalist. The "grasping at straws" approach makes people (and journalists) feel like their doing something, which can actually result in "moral licensing".
A better approach is "fair trade recycling offsets", which are patterned after carbon trading. Let plastic utensil makers sell to people who want / need them, but let them offset by collecting as much litter from places like Lagos and Jakarta as they produce. It would mean less command-and-control by government, and reduce a lot more ocean waste.
Gently reply
You should actuallty talk to someone in the industry before spreading FUD. The materials dumped from 50-60 years ago were much more dangerous and hard to break down than the waste produced today (Asbestos, Lead, etc). All the news stories about plastic taking hundreds or thousands of years to degrade is utter nonesense. In modern waste management, waste is composted and reaches extremely high temperatures where plastics readily break down. In fact most of it is turned into energy, since plastic comes from hydrocarbons. That is, of course, all the stuff that isn't recycled, since modern countries have great recycling infrastructure. As for the stuff out in the ocean? It photodegrades rapidly since the ultraviolet light of the sun breaks it apart.
The main problem with plastics is not people in Hawaii or California drinking out of plastic straws. It's third world countries that don't give a damn about the environment, don't recycle, and spew their waste everywhere. In fact most US Corporations do give a damn about product lifecycle because the people who work in, and own those corporations are Americans, and don't want to live in a polluted S***hole. That's why the US doesn't have garbage in the streets and generally has a good handle on waste management.
We tried that. You threw your plastic stuff all over the beach because you had already gotten government out of being a nanny enforcing litter laws.
https://www.usatoday.com/story...
Topping the list of items found polluting our beaches and waterways were 2.4 million cigarette butts, which contain plastic filters. That was followed by 1.7 million food wrappers and 1.6 million plastic water bottles.
Forgot about cigarette butts. And that is one of the major polluters. First world nations may be cutting back on this product, but that is not necessarily the truth in third world nations.
Anonymous comments are as pathetic as the anonymous "sources" that contaminate gutless journalism from the New York Time
Maybe they shouldn't of have and let industry sort it out. If you know its bad for your are you going to buy it? Do you smoke cigarettes?
Maybe instead of regulating the consumer you should go after the actual polluters like the garbage disposal company. But no they aren't corrupt. Its the greedy corporations its the greed of consumers. Can't blame the waste company no that would be wrong to blame them.
If you're white, yes, but:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna919856
Hell, even if you are white:
www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-city-hall-typhus-20190209-story.html
This is a terrible idea. Get government out of being a nanny. Get government out of regulating what a business can do. Its far more clean and convenient to use plastic for eating.
Just for you, and other people like you. Feel free to buy the flour that's 50% powdered chalk.
Or the cinnamon that's 75% red brick dust.
Or meat that's been slaughtered and packaged in unsanitary conditions.
Or milk that's diluted with whatever is cheapest, possibly water pumped up from the sewer system.
Because that's what we got when we didn't have government regulating what businesses could do.
Our Constitution does allow government to do things that are in the interest of or for the benefit of the people. You might try reading it some time. History too.
If you're not loving this America where the government does things for its people, feel free to leave it.
Wood is fine for some things, like coffee stirrers and spoons (in some cases).
Rich countries can develop the clean technologies that will allow developing countries to eventually adopt them.
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Where I live people have been tossing plastic items out the car windows since at least 1980-ish when usage of plastic containers really started getting up to speed. I can also assure you that not one single person has ever went down the side of the road to pick that trash up.
Guess what?
The sides of the road are not ten feet high in plastic bottles.
How can that be?
UV rays break down plastic. Yes they do. And that plastic eventually degrades to the point of being virtually non-existent.
It might take a few years, but it will disappear, I am certain of it.
I've seen similar disturbing images, but an interesting aspect of all the ones I have seen is they involve sea life. Why should people well away from any coast have to cease using plastic straws as well? Straws on land are ugly but they don't seem to attract animals in the same way that harms them (that said, if I say any straws laying on the ground now when out walking I pick them up and throw them out).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Oh wait...
I saw a stat that suggest that as much as 80% of the plastic waste in the ocean is fishing netting. The vast majority of the rest is supposedly from underdeveloped counties. Something like 0.1% of the plastic waste in the ocean is from the U.S. So these laws won't make a difference in the whole scheme of things.
Why not focus on the real problems that will have a real effect?
Are are there alternative motives involved?
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
... only if they stay rich. Venezuela and South Africa were the richest countries on their respective continents.
The typhus problem in LA is directly tied to the homeless problem here. We basically have small pockets of the third world living in the middle of the first, and nobody is really doing much to tackle the root of the problem (treating substance abuse and mental health issues).
Most ocean pollution comes from litter in fast-growing coastal cities in Asia, Africa and South America.
You know, maybe, just maybe Hawaii is most concerned not about plastic in the 350 million odd square kilometers of open ocean, but in the few hundred square kilometers of ocean around the Hawaiian islands.
And guess where most of the plastic just off the Hawaiian coast (you know, the plastic that impacts fishing, beach culture, and via tourism the economy) comes from?
Most plastic doesn't travel that far. Your recycling trading scheme would be utterly useless for cleaning up the waters around Hawaii & makes it obvious that you think of plastic in water in generalized terms & have no understanding of the direct economic benefits that come from having clean coastal waters.
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
This is a stupid idea because Hawaii is not the problem. over 90 % of ocean plastic waste comes form 10 rivers in asia and africa A fraction of a percent of the problem is caused by the first world. Spending all this money trying to scrape the last fraction of a percent out of the first world is really stupid when there are people in the third world literally dumping their plastic trash right into the river. If you want to actually solve a problem focus on the biggest causers of the problem first!
So we're okay with dumping in the oceans as long as it sinks and doesn't float? Never mind the more carbon burned to transport said goods in heavier glass vs plastic? Or are we waiting for cheap clear aluminum to be invented? Scotty?!? :) So your alternative choices are moving back to glass, aluminum, steel, or paper cartons. Obviously you can't put carbonated drinks into paper cartons, so back to glass bottles or cans. As for the rest of the larger items that come in pails or buckets, steel it is. And none of those are better for the environment.
Clearly where the plastic industry fsck'd up, was making it too light. It should sink, and no one would bitch. Out of sight, out of mind.
Litter is the manufacturers responsibility to tidy up. You can be fooled by their "Caveat emptor" like statements if you choose and put litter in the bin, but they are lies no matter what they say. Don't be fooled into 'free' employment as a rubbish collector.
We will simply use more plastic to compensate and we will also ship garbage there. You will take our pollution and you will like it.
No soda, no dish soap, no salad oil, fresh meat, frozen vegetables, fresh vegetables (packaged).... it goes on.
Take a walk down the aisle of a grocery store and see how many food items are packaged in plastic.
Now eliminate all of them from the shelves of the grocery store.
That's what you'll have.
Actually, the problem is that some countries 'recycle' by shipping their plastic to a third world country which 'recycles' the plastic for them.
There is a reason the UK has a problem, China has stopped accepting their plastic waste. Some 'recycling' companies still exploit a loophole by exporting it first to a dutch 'recycling' company, before it is shipped to China.
Or it is sent to another third world country which, o horror, horror, dumps it straight into the rivers and oceans.
The problem might be partially third world countries, but first world countries are not acting any better. They just ship their stuff off to a third world country which will accept their waste for a small payment.
And yet it's not even close to being the first time that was used to promote legislation.
All we have to do is make it illegal, and then everyone will stop doing it!
You go after the suppliers because there are less of them, not because they are the whole problem. You tackle problems in ways that will let you feasibly solve them, not the way in which you'd like to.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
We've had what, 50-60 years now where companies have done whatever they wanted with packaging and we can see the results.
You should actuallty talk to someone in the industry before spreading FUD. The materials dumped from 50-60 years ago were much more dangerous and hard to break down than the waste produced today (Asbestos, Lead, etc).
Asbestos was never a common constituent of disposable packaging. Lead was, and it took legal action to get it out. All you've done here is proven that the industry won't wipe its own ass unless required to do so by law backed up by stiff penalties.
All the news stories about plastic taking hundreds or thousands of years to degrade is utter nonesense. In modern waste management, waste is composted and reaches extremely high temperatures where plastics readily break down.
If only that were germane to the current discussion, you might have a point, but we're talking about unmanaged waste and as such you do not.
The main problem with plastics is not people in Hawaii or California drinking out of plastic straws. It's third world countries that don't give a damn about the environment, don't recycle, and spew their waste everywhere.
The main problem with plastic trash on Hawaiian beaches is people in Hawaii mishandling plastic trash. And plastic from America often gets shipped to third world countries that don't give a damn about the environment, because most of the waste disposal companies don't give a damn about the environment either — provably, or they wouldn't ship it to those places.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"