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What It's Like To Work Inside Apple's 'Black Site' (bloomberg.com)

An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a Bloomberg report: Apple's new campus in Cupertino, California, is a symbol of how the company views itself as an employer: simultaneously inspiring its workers with its magnificent scale while coddling them with its four-story cafe and 100,000-square-foot fitness center. But one group of Apple contractors finds another building, six miles away on Hammerwood Avenue in Sunnyvale, to be a more apt symbol. This building is as bland as the main Apple campus is striking. From the outside, there appears to be a reception area, but it's unstaffed, which makes sense given that people working in this satellite office -- mostly employees of Apple contractors working on Apple Maps -- use the back door. Workers say managers instructed them to walk several blocks away before calling for a ride home. Several people who worked here say it's widely referred to within Apple as a "black site," as in a covert ops facility.

Inside the building, say former workers, they came to expect the vending machines to be understocked, and to have to wait in line to use the men's bathrooms. Architectural surprise and delight wasn't a priority here; after all, the contract workers at Hammerwood almost all leave after their assignments of 12 to 15 months are up. It's not uncommon for workers not to make it that long. According to 14 current and former contractors employed by Apex Systems, a firm that staffs the building as well as other Apple mapping offices, they operated under the constant threat of termination. "It was made pretty plain to us that we were at-will employees and they would fire us at any time," says one former Hammerwood contractor, who, like most of the workers interviewed for this story, spoke on condition of anonymity because he signed a nondisclosure agreement with Apex. "There was a culture of fear among the contractors which I got infected by and probably spread."
Apex manages the workers it hires -- not Apple. "Following an inquiry from Bloomberg News, the company says, it conducted a surprise audit of the Hammerwood facility and found a work environment consistent with other Apple locations," reports Bloomberg.

"Like we do with other suppliers, we will work with Apex to review their management systems, including recruiting and termination protocols, to ensure the terms and conditions of employment are transparent and clearly communicated to workers in advance," an Apple spokesperson says in a statement.

81 comments

  1. The Powerbook G5 is in there somewhere by xack · · Score: 2

    Along with other horrific Apple experiments.

    1. Re:The Powerbook G5 is in there somewhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes, like the unreleased G4 Sphere.

    2. Re:The Powerbook G5 is in there somewhere by sheramil · · Score: 1

      Anyone else reminded of the Black Cube building in Greg Bear's "Blood Music"? I don't want to speculate further in case I inadvertently give the impression I know what They're doing, and They make me disappear.

    3. Re:The Powerbook G5 is in there somewhere by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      That was actually a long awaited product. If Apple was able to get that made, it would had been the first mass produced 64bit laptop. But it seems the Power PC development started to seriously lag behind Intel. So I would expect the other Black Experiment was the the OS X for Intel Platform. Which seemed to be something that Apple was keeping on the back burner just in case they needed to switch CPU's which they did.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    4. Re:The Powerbook G5 is in there somewhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll speculate: Apple's 'black site' is developing noobots.

    5. Re:The Powerbook G5 is in there somewhere by chrism238 · · Score: 1

      I'm reminded of the black NeXt cube.

    6. Re:The Powerbook G5 is in there somewhere by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the land of Mordor. I can imagine fire and the smell of brimstone everywhere, and the big eye peering into all.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    7. Re:The Powerbook G5 is in there somewhere by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That was actually a long awaited product. If Apple was able to get that made, it would had been the first mass produced 64bit laptop. But it seems the Power PC development started to seriously lag behind Intel.

      That's not quite accurate. They were behind in the mobile space, but not in the desktop space. The first Intel-based machine that could match the Quad G5's floating-point performance wasn't released until five or six years after the last PowerPC-based Mac was built. The main reason for the Intel transition was that IBM and Freescale (formerly Motorola) didn't really care about what Apple needed, whereas Intel was willing to go out of their way to get the contract.

      Freescale and IBM weren't willing to do much custom work for Apple. To them, Apple was a minor customer, and they basically wanted Apple to buy whatever parts they were making, off-the-shelf, as they came. None of their existing products were competitive choices for laptops, so that was a non-starter.

      Freescale knew how to build low-power devices, but their main goal was to build low-power devices for gaming consoles, with lots of special-purpose GPU-like hardware, but only mediocre G3-class or slower CPUs that couldn't compete in the real world. Apple obviously couldn't use those in laptops. And Freescale also built some chips for automotive use, but those were even less capable, and even less competitive with Intel's offerings.

      IBM wanted to build more powerful hardware, because their goal was to put Power*-architecture hardware into every server in the world. Unfortunately, they had neither the technical knowledge nor the inclination to build devices with lower power budgets, because after all, why would anybody care about how much power a server uses? It stays plugged into a wall outlet all day. That would have been fine for Apple's desktops, but Apple knew that the future of personal computing was mobile, and that continuing to let their laptop offerings fall further and further behind would be a losing strategy.

      So Apple basically had two choices for remaining on PowerPC: Build their own CPUs or get something from P.A. Semi. Unfortunately P.A. Semi didn't ship the PA6T-1682M until 2007, by which time Apple had already fully moved to Intel. If P.A. had been able to deliver their hardware a couple of years sooner, there's a decent chance that Apple would be on PowerPC, including the iPhone, rather than a mixture of Intel and ARM. (Then again, some aspects of PowerPC performance were so abysmal (some combination of Mach messaging speed and Objective-C runtime optimization) that they might have moved anyway. Hard to say.

      On the flip side, when Apple bought P.A. Semi in 2008, they got a group of people who managed to achieve G5 performance in a mobile-capable package, and that talent is likely a big part of the reason why Apple's ARM chips are staying so far out ahead of the pack.

      Either way, the Freescale/IBM situation stood in stark contrast with Intel. From talking to people who were involved just above the hardware team, Intel's engineers were absolutely thrilled to work with Apple, and to improve their chips as part of that effort. For decades, their hardware had basically only been used by Windows and Linux, neither of which really were trying to push the envelope in terms of what the hardware could do. Apple, by contrast, kept asking them for new hardware features (debug counters, timers, etc.) to help them improve performance and battery life on the platform as a whole. It was an entirely different dynamic.

      So basically, the reason for the Intel transition was that IBM and Freescale weren't willing to spend the effort to keep PowerPC viable as a mobile device architecture, and as a result, Apple switched to a company that was willing to build usable laptop chips.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  2. They're all like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ever since the big Microsoft lawsuit, the entire industry has made it a point to treat contractors like plantation-workers lest the IRS determine them to be employees and make the companies pay taxes and offer normal employee benefits like a modicum of health care or time off. The more abuse they heap upon contractors, the more the guys in management positions feel like they're doing their jobs and keeping the riff raff out.

    1. Re: They're all like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I worked for apex on a Microsoft contract about a decade ago. They never tell you that the position is temporary. After 6 months, I remember other engineers mention that any tickets to the help desk may take longer, because they've all been replaced, "because apex does that sometimes to save costs". The help desk was also apex, so I thought was it suspicious, but didn't think much of it at the time, or that I might have the same fate. Anyways, at my 12 month mark, my badge didn't work to get into the building. I called my lead, and he escorted me in, thinking it was another mistake made to the physical security system. A few weeks prior, our site manager had been locked in a very small solid back room (which contained all the most expensive parts) for a few hours, as he was allowed access in, but not out (that would also be a fire safety issue). Anyways, so I worked half that day, until physical security said my access was removed and had to escort me out. My lead had no idea, told me to sit, and that security can wait, and was red in face pissed off. After he made a few calls, apparently there was a budget decision to hire replacements at half my pay($20\h to $10\h). Our project was almost complete with phase 1 (deployment), and phase 2 didn't need as much expertise(just maintenance). I got a better job, but wish I knew ahead of time

    2. Re: They're all like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $20/hr ??

      Am I hearing this right ???

      They pay you $20/hr over there ???

      In Australia IT people won't even get out of bed for less than $50/hr....

      A decent IT contractor is on anything from $650-$1400/day depending on skillset.

      You guys get screwed.

    3. Re:They're all like that by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      Workers sometimes want to be contractors so they can cheat on their taxes, work part time and/or go on extended vacations. Corporations want contractors so they can fire them easily, and they don't show up on payrolls the same way (and do not have the scrutiny employees have, which often involve analyzing their degrees and university backgrounds, and rolling that up as high as the board of directors). I am not sure, in all cases, that contractors are cheaper to employ though. Perhaps apple can drive a harder bargain because the people in question might think they'll get a full time position? I don't know.

      In most places I've worked in recent years contractors had to be given a minimum "time off" (unpaid, no badge) every so many months. They were OK with it because the up front cash was better than they'd get anywhere else and more than covered the gap. It still strikes me as an end-run around employment law that only works because both parties want it to. It usually requires a third party whistleblower to stop.

      The right solution is probably not compatible with our laws and mindset. As far as I'm concerned employment should be a time for money transaction, "benefits" should be a government provided system, paid for by taxes, possibly enhanced by personal wealth. The difference between an employee and a contractor should simply be the size of the vehicle they show up with. Unfortunately we are in the position we are in due to conflicting ideologies allowing the wealthy to attempt to maintain a slave system.

    4. Re: They're all like that by Dru+Nemeton · · Score: 1

      Have you purchased US-based IT equipment in AU lately? Should kind of make you wonder who's getting screwed, eh? : P

    5. Re: They're all like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it is a temp agency, however, on the first day they said, after a year you'll get converted to VMC. Except for me that didn't happen.

    6. Re: They're all like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who does that ?

      All the good stuff is Chinese these days.

      Anyway, your point has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

    7. Re: They're all like that by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Except that if you believe the statements from our government (statements that they can't back up with any evidence), all the Chinese stuff is compromised and feeding all your data back to the Communists.

    8. Re: They're all like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is.

      But ours is factory p0wned too. Likewise anything from Russia, the Euro-peon Union, Israel, Korea, etc etc.

    9. Re: They're all like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But consider the honor of bring near the great Tim and to be in the holy land of Apple... Actually Apple should charge their workers for the priviledge of working for them

  3. What's the story here? by froggyjojodaddy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    - An Apple contractor has a building that isn't as spiffy as the main Apple HQ?
    - Do Managers tell staff to walk a few blocks because it's in an area where it's difficult for taxis to get to?
    - Contractors for Apple don't get treated the same as actual Apple staff?
    The article makes it sounds like there's something nefarious or dodgy going on but doesn't provide any real detail.

    1. Re:What's the story here? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... An Apple contractor has a building that isn't as spiffy as the main Apple HQ? ..

      "not as spiffy" seems to be an attempt to downplay the working conditions. As such, your message has confirmed how bad they are.

    2. Re:What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't know, from my stand point it looks pretty shitty honestly. At my company, contractors are treated more or less identically to full employees. I think the full difference between treatment is that where full employees get to charge to overhead for the company picnic and holiday party, though contractors are invited, they must do it on their own time. Beyond that, they work at the same facility, they're allowed to use all on site amenities, etc. The major difference is term of employment, and even that is minor at best. Some contractors have been there longer than I have. I know most of them have been offered full time positions, but for whatever reason they prefer contract positions.

    3. Re:What's the story here? by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Not nefarious but still kinda dodgy. Apple like the idea that their employees are working in collaboration in this big building. While a lot of the work that gets done happens in a run down building.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    4. Re:What's the story here? by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 2

      - An Apple contractor has a building that isn't as spiffy as the main Apple HQ?

      - Do Managers tell staff to walk a few blocks because it's in an area where it's difficult for taxis to get to?

      - Contractors for Apple don't get treated the same as actual Apple staff?

      The article makes it sounds like there's something nefarious or dodgy going on but doesn't provide any real detail.

      But ... but ... it's mysterious! Nobody knows where this secret building, "six miles away on Hammerwood Avenue in Sunnyvale," is!!

    5. Re:What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A contractor. Not Apple.

      You seemed to have missed that point. I wonder why.

    6. Re:What's the story here? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ...AA contractor. Not Apple.. ...

      I didn't miss that point at all. Using contractors is a way Apple keeps costs low while being able to point to all the happy workers in its doughnut. It's like outsourcing to China, but in the US.

    7. Re:What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - An Apple contractor has a building that isn't as spiffy as the main Apple HQ?

      - Do Managers tell staff to walk a few blocks because it's in an area where it's difficult for taxis to get to?

      - Contractors for Apple don't get treated the same as actual Apple staff?

      The article makes it sounds like there's something nefarious or dodgy going on but doesn't provide any real detail.

      Exactly.

      And it seems that the real culprit here is the Contractor, Apex. But Slashdot knows that if you put the word "Apple" in a Slashdot headline, the Clicks go WAY up...

    8. Re:What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...AA contractor. Not Apple.. ...

      I didn't miss that point at all. Using contractors is a way Apple keeps costs low while being able to point to all the happy workers in its doughnut. It's like outsourcing to China, but in the US.

      But, curiously enough, there was no "expose" of Microsoft, who apparently has been using Apex, too.

      https://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=13387418&cid=58109084

      Wonder why?

    9. Re: What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If apple wants to brag about how many American jobs they help support, it's fair to criticize how poor those jobs are.

      https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/01/component-manufacturing-drives-apple-us-job-creation/

    10. Re:What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The story is simply Apple's true (rotten) heart revealed. A glossy for the front door display cabinet and all the dirt and tricks at arms-length. A bit like a 5-star hotel: grand entrance but if you are playing a gig you crawl up the back sewers to get in, see the uncarpeted floors, open wiring and the real walls behind the public/guest fascades.

    11. Re:What's the story here? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      As I heard it from an ex-manager, the donut building is for the high revenue generating divisions; itunes, iphones, etc. The Mac and OSX people will be in other buildings. I'm not sure what they're going to do with the old campus, but given that they already lease a large number of office buildings in the area it would make sense to move those workers back to there.

    12. Re:What's the story here? by aybiss · · Score: 1

      I hear they have a lot of problems there with vampires.

      --
      It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
    13. Re: What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/01/component-manufacturing-drives-apple-us-job-creation/

      Apple is bragging about how many jobs they support in the USA, it is fair to criticize those American jobs.

    14. Re:What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... An Apple contractor has a building that isn't as spiffy as the main Apple HQ? ..

      "not as spiffy" seems to be an attempt to downplay the working conditions. As such, your message has confirmed how bad they are.

      Feels before reals, yall.

    15. Re:What's the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, All of the young "pretty" people that get absolutely nothing done work at the spiffy building.
      The people working at the "Black site" are old farts the get stuff done! We're not pretty.

  4. And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Having worked as a consultant and contractor myself (not for Apple). It always bugs me how I was treated like a second hand employee. Yes, I got paid more then the normal employees, but that is to cover the risk of being dropped at any time, and for me to find new business.

    Contractors are often hired to work on "Career ending" projects, where a failure would cost your job and reputation (However working via a consulting firm, the individual gets isolated, as the firm takes the blame, and then just gets their licensed renew after the problem settles down). These jobs are often very complex, where a lot of things can go wrong.

    That all said, there is often animosity towards the contractors. Which makes working cross departments difficult in general difficult, and often being blocked from accessing the companies soft employee benefits, such as the cafeteria, or the gym, in essence all these features designed to help improve productivity and moral. Means the contractors now are further hindered because they can access features to help improve their productivity and moral. Because being charged $250 an hour, you don't want to be caught at the Ping-Pong table, getting some exercise while you are thinking about how to solve the next problem.

    Hearing that Apple Maps is primarily done by the contractors, I can see why it is a mess, not because of the lack of skill from these contractors, but because of the conditions they are working in. Granted what we hear isn't bad, but it is isolated from the Apple culture, so the Apple (lack of a better term) soul isn't there.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Contractors are often hired to work on "Career ending" projects, where a failure would cost your job and reputation (However working via a consulting firm, the individual gets isolated, as the firm takes the blame, and then just gets their licensed renew after the problem settles down). These jobs are often very complex, where a lot of things can go wrong.

      Question: Why are we doing "Impossible, Career-ending, high-risk" projects?
      Answer: Because they are highly lucrative. Otherwise, there's no point.

      Question: How do you take the risk out of a project?
      Answer: By planning it out. You do the R&D, Proof of Concept Studies, Project Scope and Decomposition review, and Market analysis on the hard pieces first. Employee's have no issue doing proof of concept work on a side project if you need specialist work done, and if not, you hire a real hacker who can polymorph themselves into whatevery ou need. There is no end of proof of concept work.

      Question: Why are you using contracting staff on highly lucrative difficult projects?
      Answer: Who has the employee under a NDA and Non-Compete? If sure as heck won't be you. It'll be the contracting firm. Who will sell your employee's to the highest bidder, and that will be your competition.

      That doesn't pass the smell test bud. Someone's feeding you a trof of BS and you're happily eating out of it.

    2. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple doesn't owe you anything. You agreed to take a job at a set rate. The end. Whining about gym access? And you wonder why no one takes your generation seriously?

    3. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, those damn baby boomers!

    4. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by ctilsie242 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In some cases, contractors don't make that much more than the FTEs. I have seen places where management deliberately pits contractors versus the FTEs, where the FTEs are told that their jobs can be replaced at any time by the contractors, and the contractors are told how awesome the cool benefits the FTEs get, like the gym and such... which they will never get to see unless they become FTEs.

      In my experience, in general you are never told how long your gig will be. Of course, when your gig ends, you will never be told face to face. Your badge just stops working in the door, and your stuff on your desk is either packed up and at the front desk... or is likely at a local pawn shop. If lucky, you might be asked to drive to the contractor office, just for them to demand your badge and stuff there.

      Your best defense as a contractor? Five things:

      First, you make sure your "fuck you" fund is kept at at least a year's salary. This is NOT an IRA, and not a savings. This is a fund whose goal is to keep your rent/mortgage paid, food on the table, your vehicle out of repossession, and you relatively sane. This way, when you get laid off, you can take time and get a "real" job, and not wind up taking another contract job out of desperation.

      The second thing: As a contractor, always keep your LinkedIn profile up to date, your resume up to date, keep contacts going, go to various business events, keep a GitHub public repository full of goodies that show your stuff, and keep a job hunt going at a low level. That way, when some company has a good FTE position, you can leave the craziness of the contractor world behind for some stability.

      The third thing: Get some certificates. Tech co-workers don't care, but showing you have a Sec+ helps you for government work. A RHCE, MCSE, or CCIE will get you past the HR firewall in most companies.

      The fourth thing: You generally don't get any vacation time. Make sure you have a vacation fund where you can just take some time off. This will keep you from burning out. Burnout is common as a contractor, and it will kill your career.

      The fifth thing: Start looking for a FTE job eventually, or else you get branded as a "contractor only" person. Someone to be hired and fired and who isn't worth paying a full time salary too. Having contract jobs, especially if they are short term, is bad for the resume after a while, as you get viewed as disposable, or the first person on the list to get the axe.

    5. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      First, you make sure your "fuck you" fund is kept at at least a year's salary.

      This makes all the difference. It's not just a security for when you get laid off; it also enables you to take the initiative to quit yourself, not when you finally reach the point where you really cannot take it anymore, but way before that. Hence the name of that fund. When I quit my job and started contracting, I made myself a promise that I would never again work for asshole bosses, and I built up my "fuck you" fund so I could keep that promise. It allows me to pick the assignments I like, and quit those that somehow changed into awful ones. It has also changed my attitude towards work, in a positive sense, to the benefit of myself and of my clients.

      Seriously, start saving and do this.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    6. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      You seem to be in some sort of idealistic world. Real life is makes this more complex.

      Question: Why are we doing "Impossible, Career-ending, high-risk" projects?
      Answer: Because they are highly lucrative. Otherwise, there's no point.

      Not necessarily highly lucrative, often it is just a whim of some executive at the time. The idea itself may be stupid, and all the department managers have found a way to say we cannot do it. So they bring in a contractor to do the job, because no one else is willing to touch it with a 100ft pool.

      Question: How do you take the risk out of a project?
      Answer: By planning it out. You do the R&D, Proof of Concept Studies, Project Scope and Decomposition review, and Market analysis on the hard pieces first. Employee's have no issue doing proof of concept work on a side project if you need specialist work done, and if not, you hire a real hacker who can polymorph themselves into whatevery ou need. There is no end of proof of concept work.

      I have taken MBA Classes that tell me that is what we should do... However I never worked at a company willing to put up the money for R&D and proof of concept. The company would like to fine someone specialized in such area, then have their staff tinkering with a new concept. Because tinkering isn't profitable. Now granted the Contractor may not be any more specialized, but at least his consulting firm will sell them as such. Getting this real hacker, is usually tough to find one professional enough to work with the company, they tend to be too much of a loose cannon (they are exceptions).

      Question: Why are you using contracting staff on highly lucrative difficult projects?
      Answer: Who has the employee under a NDA and Non-Compete? If sure as heck won't be you. It'll be the contracting firm. Who will sell your employee's to the highest bidder, and that will be your competition.

      Working as a contractor, we are there to take the blame for failure. While most of the staff I have worked with work very hard to prevent failure, sometimes we are just given a dud job, that there isn't a good way to make it a success, because it was a stupid idea. For example (luckily we actually refused such a product) there was a customer wanted us to write a program that scans their hard drive of scanned legal documents, try to extract the date of the document from OCR, then decide if it is good to delete them or not.
      The potential customer, figured this would save him time in his job, and didn't realize the difference between searching for an OCR data, vs having automatic rule based on its search. Especially deleting legal documents. As a consultant we are use to take the blame, but the company wasn't big enough to take the blame of such a cluster idea of a project, where having groups of lawyers suing us, just didn't make it possible.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    7. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by epine · · Score: 1

      Your badge just stops working in the door, and your stuff on your desk is either packed up and at the front desk ... or is likely at a local pawn shop.

      Those in the full time business of making shit flow downhill (like it needed any additional help) typically colour within the lines very carefully.

      It's not good business to wind up in small claims court playing the visible role of a heartless Ebenezer. Colouring carefully between the legal lines is the best way to remain in the black in the shitflow business over the long haul. (The at-will American employment regime poses no real incentive to a ruthless management culture in the arena of gratuitous abuse; 90% of what you want to do is entirely legal.)

      Thus I take these kinds of sharecropping stories with a giant grain of salt. Yeah, there's always one asshole in the barrel (possibly compensated as badly as you are) who goes above and beyond, but this is hardly the norm.

    8. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      It isn't about being owed anything, it is just an impractical use of consultants, to tread them a second hand employees, while they work on important jobs as well.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    9. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My experience as a contractor has been very different from yours. Sure, I'm brought in on hard problems, but because it is felt I can solve them, not because the company is looking for a scapegoat when I fail. But I will admit that, when I'm on contract, I minimize any type of socializing at work - at $250/hr and up I try and give full value - so while there is necessarily a distance from company employees, I would not qualify it as animosity.

    10. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, the contract work I've done in Raleigh, NC has paid less that the full-time positions. When the market is down, it is sometimes all you can get, and they lure you in with the contract-to-hire lie. I let Cisco drag me through that for three years. Had the full-time guys telling me that contractors weren't as good, because they weren't "dedicated". He was a little sheepish when I explicitly gave him the low down on what it was like to be cannon fodder for layoffs when you were trying to support a family. After three years, I interviewed for a position that came open, and I was told that I was not smart enough to work there. I was gone a week later.

      I will not talk to a company that wants to play the contract-to-hire game now. My life is to short to be wasting time with that bullshit. If I do sign up for a contract gig, it will just be a holdover and I'll be looking for a way out the entire time.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    11. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have just described Aerospace contracting to a T.

      There are dozens (if not hundreds) of tiny little 50-200 person companies at completely nondescript buildings. Mine doesn't even have the name on the building. If you search for the company on Google, it's a "PC Repair business".

      I have no real co-workers. Just people co-working in the same space. Everything is hush-hush NDA but it's not really a big secret or even something you'd want to know.

      When you roll the Military in it goes up by a power of 10x. There are only 8 people that know what I'm working on. We're all contractors of contractors of contractors of contractors. I don't even know who the final product is for.

      Normally I have people to bounce ideas off of, now I have complete autonomy over every decision (which I hate).

      It does keep lunch conversations off of work, since none of us can actually talk about who we're even working for.

      I work through one person

      AC for obvious reasons.

    12. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure about that? I can give you a ton of stories about bad managers, and unprofessional actions they pull, just because they can.

      Not like anyone is going to sue, because the arbitration agreement supersedes small claims court, and an employer lawsuit will guarantee the contractor is blacklisted never to be hired again. You have no clue how the court system is biased against the little guy, especially with how much insulation there is between the contractor, employee, and client.

      Get off the high horse. It sounds like you have never been a contractor, nor have dealt with the heaps of abuse on you due to power-hungry assholes who know they can have you out the door with a single call to building security, with zero change of any retaliation or consequences on their part. I'm sure you have not worked with managers who had posters with badge pictures of all the contractors they have fired, because they consider that "street cred". However, it exists, and is very common because there are no consequences for doing so.

    13. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Counterpoint. I'm a contractor right now. I like being left out of the office politics. Actually, several of the people I work with are friends I've worked with for over a decade. If they have some office party or event I can't go do, does it bother me? Not in the least! I just ask how it was and smile and stuff. And, if you are a good contractor, no project should be considered a career ender. You're building a different kind of personal reputation. Your reputation is the guy who gets shit done, even (especially) when no one else can or will.

    14. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      It can vary a lot depending upon the company. I 've seen contractors hired to work on the spiffy new projects so that employees weren't taken off of the dull routine maintenance of older projects. Often I see contractors hired (often friends of friends of a manager) because they're easier to get on the books than to get a full time employee even though the actual cost might be greater. Sometimes and it frustrated me that there would be underqualified people screwing up projects despite never having gone through the normal interview process; and I'd be cleaning up after them because my time was less valuable than giving some basic training about how to check in code properly. In some places though the contractors were good, integrated into a team instead of being in a silo, and treated like anyone else.

    15. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Politics affects this too. And naivete. One thing contracting houses do is marketing. They sound great on paper and they can start as soon as you want. Only after the check clears it's sometimes not working out like you hoped.

    16. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily highly lucrative, often it is just a whim of some executive at the time. The idea itself may be stupid, and all the department managers have found a way to say we cannot do it. So they bring in a contractor to do the job, because no one else is willing to touch it with a 100ft pool.

      I've seen where a department is really bad with a certain task or is spending too much money doing it. So the idea is that money can be saved by contracting it out to a different company. Then you take the department that's not doing very well at the task and put them in charge of coordinating with the third party. Then it starts to screw up. Ie, the department wasn't very good at the task because they were still acting like a startup and never got around to having requirements and creating specifications before the work starts. So now they don't have suitable documentation to give to the outside company so that they can do a good job. It ended up being more expensive and taking more time overall.

      Yet it all started with the naive idea of "we can save money if we let someone else do the task". Never mind that once it failed someone attempted it a second time a year later...

      Question: How do you take the risk out of a project?
      Answer: By planning it out. You do the R&D, Proof of Concept Studies, Project Scope and Decomposition review, and Market analysis on the hard pieces first.

      And that's the hard part. This I think is what separates a company that acts like a startup and one that acts like it wants to do a proper job for the long term. In the middle is the painful growing process that most companies have to get past.

      What I see funny is when a contracting agency (manufacturer, designer, etc) is hired to do the new projects rather than use them for the existing products that just need to be maintained. Especially if you go overseas you end up with more workers who aren't as good but for less cost. Probably this comes from the mistake of seeing all workers as identical.

    17. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      From a contracting agency, the contractors usually make less or similar money to a full time employee. And not just from overseas agencies but the local US based agencies too. The high fee per worker that agencies charge doesn't all go to the worker. If you want to make good money as a contractor then you should probably be independent, otherwise if you're forking over huge chunks of your fee to an agency then you may as well have been a full time employee instead.

    18. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's one thing if you're getting most of that $250 per hour, vs you getting a normal salary via a 3rd party agency.

      You're a freelancer? Your agency just takes 10% as a management fee? You're probably getting 90% of that charge out.

      You're an employee of an agency, and the agency is a contractor to the company? I suspect you're getting closer to 30% of that charge out. You personally end up in a worst-of-both-worlds situation.

    19. Re:And we wonder why Apple Maps has problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If executives are cutting projects on a whim at the behest of their department and other department managers, who are paid good money to know what is and is not possible, then you and I both know who needs to be replaced.

      As a company gets bigger, it eventually hires a group of people who, literally, do nothing but stand around all day learning. I was born with ~150-160 IQ, so in my city of ~10 million, there are somewhere between 10-100 people as intelligent as I am; those people are a little bit smarter, harder to find, and the executive management uses them to determine if technology investments are a good idea. They are an R&D Skunkworks and rapid prototyping conclave all in one. Any project decomposition needs to have a "These bits are hard, we need to do an R&D to tune them" and if the R&D is too expensive, it becomes a project risk.

      If the contractor exists to take blame for failure, you are working in a small enough of an organization to still think the blame game is a good idea to play. It is not. Only grifters play the blame game, and that's part of how they screw you. Once they have you convinced the world is full of idiots only they can tame, then they can tell you which idiots to hire, and when those idiots fleece you well.

      You can tell an awful lot about the health of an organization based upon how people talk to one another.

  5. The treatment of contract workers isn't new... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Treating contractors like dogshit isn't new. In the 1990s, there was a tech support company that hired a contract place to do the same. Contract workers were fired and frog-marched out the door by security because their piece of shit phone's ACD status briefly flashed something the PHBs didn't understand, so they thought the worker was "hacking". Other people got fired for being a second over break (yes, a second.) The contract place had a philosophy of "no mercy" because they thought that firing people left and right ensured everyone else complied.

    Contracting can make OK pay, but usually it isn't worth it. The main reason why people do it, is desperation. It takes 5-8 months to get hired on properly by a normal firm, and if someone is out of a job, they don't have that long, while Apex can get them on the job in 2-3 weeks.

    Disclaimer: I've never worked for Apex, but the places are all the same pretty much.

  6. Black site... by roboti_spaghetti · · Score: 0

    Given California's new equity uprising I fully expected this article to be about Apples' new all black people HQ, no whitey bois allowed .... because you know, it's only fair

  7. Minor typo... ? by zarmanto · · Score: 1

    ... According to 14 current and former contractors employed by Apex Systems, a firm that staffs the building as well as other Apple mapping offices ...

    Correction: a firm that formerly staffed various offices for Apple; considering how Apex has so severely mishandled things as to make their employees angry enough to "let the cat out of the bag," I'm sure Apple will be exercising one of their small-print termination clauses in the contract with Apex, forthwith.

    I mean, come on; pretty much everybody knows that the only way to keep a "black ops" under wraps is to make sure that all of the participants are loyal to a fault and have a strong vested interest in the success of that op. The only (legal) way that corporations can ensure that is by offering lucrative financial incentives and a positive overall work experience to the employees... whereas it sounds a lot like Apex managed to offer every disincentive in the book. YUUUUGE fail.

  8. Facts of Contracting Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless the firm you are working for is a partnership and in business to find you business, Your employer is disposable. You are disposable.

    You are never a specialist, if you are you'd know it and people would be seeking you out.

    The manager who brings in contractors either wants very narrowly defined, simplistic work to be done inwhich place you are screwing your career over by staying there, or they think the labor market has a glut of skills and wants to screw everyone over they possibly can by hiring you at under market rates, at which point you are the rube, the mark, and the sucker.

    They want disposable human capital; they want guaraunteed turnover; they don't want to pay benefits, retirement, or anything else. By doing more for less, you are screwing yourself and everyone else over because the management, genuinely, doesn't understand what it takes to do the work right.

    Therefor, your employers job is to screw you over, and therefor your job is to screw over your employer as hard as is possible.

    You do the work you are assigned, with the barest minimum thought to not waste your time, and any surplus time you find yourself having, you don't report it to the management but instead spend it wisely learning or studying. I had a sub-sub-sub contracted (Literally 3 people saw my paycheck before I did) helpdesk job once where I scripted 4/5ths of the position; made studying for certs and college much easier. I would get in at 5AM, do my tickets by 8AM, Study until 2PM, Go to class at 3PM, Be home by 7PM, and in bed early to repeat the next day. I did not tell management how I did my job, they only knew I could solve things nobody else could. That gig lasted 2 years, and ended with staff fleeing a sinking insourcing ship. I got out just as I got my degree.

    A contracting job is something you use as leverage to get a better gig or contract which you eventually leverage into Full time work. Do not stay at a contracting gig because you are afraid of losing said contracting gig, it will end sooner than you think, and often more spectacularily than you can imagine depending on the grifting architecture at work. Never, ever stay the full length of the contract.

    If you feel trapped, remind your manager that if their management is telling them to lie to you, they are probably lieing to them, so why would you not lie to them and tell them whatever they think they want to hear?

    If they insist or get obstinant, remind them, this is America. We did away with slavery 20 years ago. Anyone who thinks that's a good idea needs to be reminded of the ratio of guns to people in this country.

    1. Re:Facts of Contracting Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is America. We did away with slavery 20 years ago.

      I agree with your post, but are you sure about this part? I think that figure overestimates the reality by a few years...

    2. Re:Facts of Contracting Work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you quantify an economic collapse?

      Fertility rate and average livespan are two great measures.

      A fertility rate of 2.1 births per women is replacement. 1.2 is where the USSR got during its collapse. The US is currently at 1.72 and falling, europe is not far behind. Average lifespan in the US is dropping.

      1 in 2 newborn men today will not have children and will not get married. That's 60 to 100 million men by around 2023. It's so bad latino's coming across the border are not having kids.

      Once a good chunk of those men hit over 40, they're going to reflect on the screwing they got, and they're going to realize they very little interest in self-preservation, but tremendous interest in exacting justice on their own terms. And remember, we're a country that believes in jury trials. Juries used to nullify charges on "they needed a killin" in texas right up to the 90's.

      What is going on today will not last.

  9. Bigger company = more mediocrity by Quakeulf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This follows the rule of equilibrium in thermodynamics. Always have something in contrast to even out the rest. It comes naturally, and is why I would rather go out kicking and screaming than work for big tech.

  10. managers instructed them to walk several blocks aw by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    managers instructed them to walk several blocks away so any thing that happens is coved under works comp and hourly people need to clock out after that walk as well.

  11. Piece of cake compared to ... by Qbertino · · Score: 2

    ... assembling iPhones somewhere in WangTang where killing yourself seems to be an attractive option.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:Piece of cake compared to ... by mina3000 · · Score: 0

      The fifth thing: Start looking for a FTE job eventually, or else you get branded as a "contractor only" person. Someone to be hired and fired and who isn't worth paying a full time salary too. Having contract jobs, especially if they are short term, is bad for the resume after a while, as you get viewed as disposable, or the first person on the list to get the axe. https://ovo.fyi/brazzers/ https://ovo.fyi/youporn/ https://ovo.fyi/xhamster/

    2. Re:Piece of cake compared to ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... assembling iPhones somewhere in WangTang where killing yourself seems to be an attractive option.

      They simply fail to consider the honor bestowed upon them, that they may be allowed to touch holy artifacts such as Apple devices. Do they not realise their important part of keeping the wheels of the holy Apple church spinning? They even get payed to handle these sacred artifacts!

  12. my experience differs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every black site I ever worked at I made sure to park close to the door and never carry much cash

    1. Re: my experience differs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Word.

  13. Surprised at at-will? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is the least believable bit here. Private industry in the US is almost exclusively at-will. Why would you ever expect anything else?

  14. While not an Apple employee/contractor... by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

    I have been in two of their “black sites” for other projects, and it is funny that Lyft’s maps have the building code addresses. I was really surprised when standing next door that it knew its code already. Just funny how hard people sometimes work to keep obvious secrets hidden.

    (Hint— look for the security guards with logo jackets.)

    1. Re:While not an Apple employee/contractor... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have actually worked in one of black sites although as employee. It was nothing like the article describes. Yes, the building is unmarked and there was no receptionist, but that where the similarities end. Vending machines were stocked just fine and there was all kinds of milk in the fridge. There is a lot of secrecy but this is general Apple trait, not some conspiracy to exploit workers. Apple is a very large company so there are all kinds of groups and projects. Some better, some worse. I think this article is just a pure clickbait. I think in general Apple is pretty good company to work for, provided you end up in the right project It could be however not so great if you land in the wrong one. Pretty much like any other large company.

  15. Apple's "Site B" eh? by JudgeFurious · · Score: 1

    "Isla Sorna" is what they should call it.

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
  16. If Apple really wanted to... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    ... they could just put the treatment of contract employees into the contracts that are signed with their contractors, and enforce those contracts. Apple's lawyers wrote the Terms of Service and Privacy contracts that customers automatically agree to. Have you ever read those contracts? I'm sure those same Apple lawyers could write up contractor contracts that specify, to similar detail as the Terms of Service, just how the employees of those contractors should be treated. imo, the fact that we see less than Apple-like working conditions at these "black sites" means that Apple is aware of the conditions and allows the conditions. Think about it, would a contractor want to go up against Apple's legal department?

  17. Whining contractors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love my job as a contractor - company jobs bored me, and I earn much more now. It's simple, either both parties agree a number of months in the contract, or both can terminate at any moment. What's the problem? That's the job, and I get paid accordingly. If you whine like an employee, you are not getting it, that's exactly what the client isn't buying. As a contractor, lawyer, notary, etc. you expect to work a number of hours in a year, which is less than your available hours. You set the price so you get essentially paid for your available hours, you not only sell the working ours but your availability as a whole. Some years will be better, some worse, so you make sure to build a monetary buffer in those good years.

  18. Fixing Apple's statement by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    FTS: Apex manages the workers it hires -- not Apple. "Following an inquiry from Bloomberg News, the company says, it conducted a surprise audit of the Hammerwood facility and found a work environment consistent with other Apple locations," reports Bloomberg.

    "Like we do with other suppliers, we will work with Apex to review their management systems, including recruiting and termination protocols, to ensure the terms and conditions of employment are transparent and clearly communicated to workers in advance," an Apple spokesperson says in a statement.

    Translation: This work site is just as shitty as all our others, and the fact that employees are booted without provocation or notice has been clearly communicated.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  19. "Let's remove the screen" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Let's remove the screen"
    Heads bob in agreement.
    "Visual output is so 2018. What users should want is an olfactory output from their iFablets."
    "Fabulous, sir! Genius! Remove a medium of logical discourse for a purely visceral and emotional one. Brilliant!"

    "Siri: President Trump"
    *fffttpppbbbbht*
    "Siri: Green New Deal"
    *blanket human attraction pheremones*
    "Working as intended"

  20. Your company chooses risk by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At my company, contractors are treated more or less identically to full employees.

    And that's how contractors win lawsuits to get full benefits.

    Given the legal climate Apple is smart to take a hands-off approach to contractors and let conditions be totally managed by this other company,

    I know most of them have been offered full time positions, but for whatever reason they prefer contract positions.

    (A) This may be in violation of contracts they have signed with the contracting firm they are working through.

    (B) Being a contractor in a large company is nice because you are more sheltered from political intrigue.

    (C) You can often figure out how to give yourself equivalent benefits company workers get for less than they are paying, combine that with a higher contractor salary and converting to an employee can mean quite an earnings hit.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Your company chooses risk by Frobnicator · · Score: 1

      And that's how contractors win lawsuits to get full benefits.

      ^^^ That right there.

      It tends to go in waves, where companies try to go "everybody is a contractor", followed by a wave of companies (and sometimes specific executives) facing tax fraud for misclassifying workers.

      I've known some company executives who went to prison for it about eight years ago, they had a reputation for abusing their workers. The punishment was well deserved. Looking up the news article, that company owner was found personally liable for a half million dollars in restitution, six months in prison for tax fraud, and a 5-year probation with a restriction from handling money for other people. The company was sold at auction to help repay workers.

      Apple has money so they could afford the lawsuit and settlement. When they've got enough money it's just a cost of doing business. But even so, stories like this mean it is time for another wave to hit.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
  21. only pathetic morons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Work for apple