Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Decade-Long Study: Measles Vaccine Doesn't Cause Autism, Even in High-Risk Kids (reuters.com)

Posted by msmash on from the case-closed dept.

The measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine isn't associated with an increased risk of autism even among kids who are at high risk because they have a sibling with the disorder, a Danish study suggests. From a report: Concerns about a potential link between the MMR vaccine and autism have persisted for two decades, since a controversial and ultimately retracted 1998 paper claimed there was a direct connection. Even though subsequent studies haven't tied inoculation to autism, fear about the risk has weighed on parents so much in several communities across Europe and the U.S. that vaccination rates have been too low to prevent a spate of measles outbreaks.

In the current study, researchers examined data on 657,461 children. During this time, 6,517 kids were diagnosed with autism. Kids who got the MMR vaccine were seven percent less likely to develop autism than children who didn't get vaccinated, researchers report in the Annals of Internal Medicine. "Parents should not skip the vaccine out of fear for autism," said lead study author Dr. Anders Hviid of the Statens Serum Institut in Copenhagen, Denmark. "The dangers of not vaccinating includes a resurgence in measles which we are seeing signs of today in the form of outbreaks," Hviid said by email.

55 of 358 comments (clear)

  1. But don't worry by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The idiots will find a new reason to avoid vaccinations. If anything fails, the study will be dismissed as fake from the pharma industry.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:But don't worry by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But they don't have a right to endanger other people. If you don't want your kids vaccinated, they shouldn't be allowed in public schools (or heck, probably most private ones), or anywhere else where other children or immune-compromised people congregate. Your freedom to be a complete moron and endanger your own children should not extend to giving you the liberty to cause harm to others.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:But don't worry by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      I can overgeneralize too.
      This is unlike the idiots and politicians that claim, that Climate Change is a Hoax, that the Earth is actually flat, and evolution is the work of the Devil. Oh, and unrestricted capitalism to an already corrupt corporate environment is a "good thing" to the nation.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:But don't worry by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's not the reason socialism fails. Socialism fails because it rewards non-achievers the same as the achievers.

      When non-achievers get the same rewards as the achievers then everybody stops making an effort. It starts at mediocrity and goes downhill from there.

      --
      No sig today...
    4. Re: But don't worry by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Informative

      Except those that can't be. We rely upon 90%+ of people to be vaccinated to protect the minority who, for specific reasons cannot be. For chrissakes, this isn't news. We've known about the notion of herd immunity for well over a century. This is as established a branch of science as one can get.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re: But don't worry by jeff4747 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They can only get each vaccine when they are old enough, and many vaccines require multiple doses spread out over years. Eventually they'll be fully vaccinated, but eventually isn't today.

      Also, vaccines are about 95% effective. We rely on herd immunity to protect the roughly 5% where the vaccine does not "take". My kids may be the unlucky 5% for some particular disease that an anti-vaxxer's snowflake gives them.

    6. Re:But don't worry by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Nope. I'm not. I'm ready to use the power of the state to keep those kids out of schools or anywhere else where they can cause harm. I don't advocate removing parents' rights as guardians of their children, but I'm fully on board for making those parents feel the consequences of their actions.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:But don't worry by gnick · · Score: 5, Funny

      There is very convincing evidence linking childhood vaccinations with irreversible cases of adulthood.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    8. Re: But don't worry by gtall · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If I recall correctly, kids cannot get the measles vaccine until they are about 1 yr. old. Until they get it, they are relatively unprotected.

    9. Re:But don't worry by jeff4747 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not the reason socialism fails. Socialism fails because it rewards non-achievers the same as the achievers.

      Please point to an actual "socialist" country that actually rewards everyone the same.

      That's not a "no true Scottsman" about socialism. It's demonstrating that your theory lacks evidence.

    10. Re:But don't worry by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Who's going to tell that to the socialist parties in Europe who have been part of the governments in most of those countries for the better part of the years since WW2?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re: But don't worry by jeff4747 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Herd immunity isnt âoescienceâ

      Uh...yeah, it is. It's a major part of the sciences of biology and public health, backed by experiments. That's why we know what percentage of a population has to be vaccinated for herd immunity to be effective.

    12. Re:But don't worry by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Looks like it worked out for Austria. The socialist party was pretty much constantly part of the government since WW2 and Vienna (the capital) has had a socialist mayor since WW2 and has been topping Mercer's highest quality of living for the past years (i.e. since Mercer's been doing it).

      And looking down the list of cities, I get to see Austria, Switzerland, New Zealand, Germany, Canada, Denmark, Netherlands, .... you have to go down to place 30 to find the first US city. Which is San Francisco. I may be wrong, but I don't see a single US city from a traditionally Republican run state in the first 50 at all.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    13. Re:But don't worry by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Not if that endangers other children.

      Or do I have the right to raise my kid to be a murderous psychopath if I so please? Yes, he'll cap your spawn when he gets the chance, but don't I have the right to raise my kids the way I see fit?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    14. Re: But don't worry by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The math is well understood. Vaccines aren't 100% effective, so you need a certain large fraction of the population immunized so new outbreaks die off faster than they spread. And for the unvaccinated this still applies even if it was 100% effective.

      This study shows there is no valid health concern. Rather than worry about profiteering drug companies charging a few tens of dollars, worry about profiteering talking heads disdaining vaccines charging tens of dollars for their book on TV and the Internet.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    15. Re:But don't worry by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      No, I'm saying there are certain people who CANNOT be vaccinated, and when herd immunity has been achieved, those people are protected because everyone else around them has been vaccinated.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    16. Re:But don't worry by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      DNC doesn't have a right to fight a border wall. When 49,000 US citizens are violently attacked by illegals every year, a wall is common sense, sanctuary cities need to be punished for protecting criminals.

      In 2013 there were 73,505 firearm related injuries and 33,636 deaths. GOP doesn't have a right to fight gun control. When 107,000 US citizens are violently attacked with firearms every year, gun control is common sense.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    17. Re:But don't worry by tomknight · · Score: 2

      Thanks for the second article/link, it really helps this sort of discussion.

      As you've bothered to cite it I dare say you've read it though and agree with it. The last paragraph was particularly helpful. It starts with:

      "Given the effectiveness of the MMR vaccine in eliminating both measles and rubella, and the highly infectious nature of these diseases, high vaccination coverage is essential. The diseases that the vaccines are preventing are not benign and vaccination can eliminate many of the serious sequelae of these infections"

      --
      Oh arse
    18. Re:But don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If I made a survey of cities based upon freedom of activity, low tax burden and lack of government restriction and oversight not one of those cities would make the list. I know in which group I would rather live.

      Let's have a think about cities that qualify on the basis of your list, shall we?
      Aden; Mogadishu; Kinshasa; Ashgabat; Lagos; Dhaka; Tripoli -- all of them have a low tax burden, lack government restrictions and oversight, and allow you great freedom of activity. Why, they are even freer than your very own top US cities: after all, it's much easier to find yourself a child prostitute in one of these cities than in Houston, and you can act with impunity.

      So why don't you fuck off to Kinshasa and live there for a year and wank on to the locals about the benefits of no government interference? They could do with a laugh, in between being shot at by militias.

    19. Re:But don't worry by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      2nd amendment, read it.

      I have, and also own 4 handguns, a shotgun, and 2 rifles. In literally the 1st 3 words of the Amendment are the words "well regulated". There are multiple common sense and reasonable controls that could be put on firearm ownership without infringing on the ability to own firearms, as I have laid out in Slashdot numerous times. Mandatory initial and recurring training provided by local governments (funded by a nominal tax on ammunition and of course the NRA-surely they of all people gladly would support training firearm owners in proper firearm storage, handling, operation, and relevant laws, yes?) would be a great start. More rigorous reporting and administration of background checks. And in an important but tangential action, substantive improvements to mental health treatment in the US.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    20. Re:But don't worry by Nidi62 · · Score: 3

      2nd amendment, read it.

      I have, and also own 4 handguns, a shotgun, and 2 rifles. In literally the 1st 3 words of the Amendment are the words "well regulated".

      That's not what "well regulated" meant in 1791.... but we'll also be hypocrites and use the modern day meaning of "arms".

      Well, in 1791 that meant everyone would show up with their own guns at the town square every couple weeks and go through military drills, which revolves back to my argument that regular firearm training should be a mandatory component of firearm ownership.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    21. Re:But don't worry by sarkeizen · · Score: 2

      How the outbreak in Disney was not a wild strain.

      Are you trolling? Disneyland outbreak was genotype B3. http://outbreaknewstoday.com/p...

      Since I know pro-vaxxers won't do any research on their own, rather relying on the supposed experts to tell you what to believe, here is a link for you. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]

      Yeah, someone got genotype A measles unsurprising considering the billions of shots that have been given. The idea that this could be responsible for outbreaks involved a catastrophic misunderstanding of science. See even if you shed genotype A. It's still vaccine strain, the likely case for someone who encounters it in sufficient quantity is - vaccination.

      Another link for the unbelievers. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]

      This simply looks at post hoc ER visits. Not actual events.

    22. Re:But don't worry by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And we have no politicians in the US advocating for Venezuelan style socialism. We do have some wanting more socialist policies similar to that in Scandinavia. The mass hysteria on the right against some prominent politicians is just silly; No one is abolishing capitalism, no one is banning hamburgers, and no one has an agenda to make your children gay. For every delusional person you can point to on the left there is also a delusional person you can point to on the right.

      The New Deal was essentially a socialist policy and it pulled us out of the Great Depression when the prior solutions had been failing. Social Security and Medicare are socialist policies backed by a large majority in the US (and yes, they need some fixing).

      The problem is that we've got a political system based upon divisiveness today. Everyone politician is anti something, usually anti-the-other-side. Finding common ground is considered a traitorous act. Compromise is a dirty word. But a mere thirty years ago it was still considered a good thing to reach across the aisle, and moderates were seen as the intelligent voices who made things work.

    23. Re:But don't worry by F.Ultra · · Score: 2

      As you well know, those countries are only socialist if some one in the US want's to point to something bad in said country, when they want to point to something good then they are capitalistic with "some socialist programs".

    24. Re:But don't worry by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      New Deal happened earlier, and did alleviate much of the great depression. WWII came after and accelerated the US into being an economic superpower, but the great depression was essentially over before we entered the war. There was the overlap period, where we still had the depression, we weren't in the war, but Europe was at war, so this certainly had an effect. But you cannot discount the New Deal as not helping.

    25. Re:But don't worry by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      Gun control does not equal gun confiscation or elimination.

      It does, however, equal "infringement", which the 2nd amendment is pretty clear is a "shall not".

      The words "well regulated" are adjectives that apply to the militia, not to the right to keep and bear arms. It also appears in a clause that is descriptive and not proscriptive. I.e., it gives one reason for an inalienable right, which being inalienable, actually requires no reason at all. Would you accept a requirement that you provide some reason why police cannot come search your house at any time they wish (4th amendment)? Or do you need to give the reason why you don't want to answer questions that might incriminate you (5th)?

      We already have gun control. For example, any time I want to buy a gun my name goes to the FBI for a background check and (I am assured) does not go onto a list of gun owners. "I am assured" by the people who would be keeping the list, of course.

      It would be honest to call for "more gun control", but everyone who calls for more controls tries to pretend we have none at all now.

  2. I mean, NO SHIT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Morons who don't vaccinate their kids should be dealt with by Child Protective Services.

    1. Re:I mean, NO SHIT by bobbied · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Morons who don't vaccinate their kids should be dealt with by Child Protective Services.

      Well... I agree they are generally morons, but I'm a bit leery of sending CPS into haul the kids away for this. It's a bit too close to jackboots and brown shirts for my tastes and CPS tends to be a bit heavy handed at times to start with. Let's not give them another reason to come calling at your house and take your kids first and ask questions later.

      I do support laws just short of making vaccinations mandatory, but there are long standing and closely held religious beliefs that preclude the use of vaccines (along with a host of other medical procedures). So let's make it nearly impossible to get public services, attend public schools or attend government sponsored gatherings of children without vaccines having been given as recommended, except if there are valid and documented medical reasons which make vaccinations inappropriate. IF your religious belief precludes your kids from vaccines, fine, but you don't get to put them in public school, obtain welfare benefits, or use other public services until you vaccinate them (or get the medical waver)...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:I mean, NO SHIT by gtall · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "religious beliefs that preclude the use of vaccines" And just what might those religious beliefs be? Non-belief in modern science and medicine? Belief that kids are parents' property to do unto as they please? Belief in endangering the rest of the pop. that doesn't share those beliefs? Religious beliefs my ass, those holders are deluded if those beliefs constitute religious beliefs. I don't recall any the Bible or the Koran admonishing followers to shun modern medicine of whatever age they live in.

    3. Re:I mean, NO SHIT by Talderas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not based on religious views. The Amish and Mennonite religions don't have doctrine against vaccines.

      Christine Science is a faith which follows prayer/faith healing. Their opposition to vaccines is part of a general rejection of modern medicine and that is an important distinction to keep in mind. No amount of efficacy or safety of vaccines is going to budge the doctrine on faith healing religions, compare that against other religions where objections were based on an erroneous belief of the use of blood in vaccines (Jehova's Witness) or based on beliefs that fetal tissue was used. These religions revised their doctrinal stance on vaccines when evidence was presented to them because they accept modern medicine.

      These sects also happen to form a vast minority of the anti-vax movement population and its pretty easy to let them keep their religious exemption because the total population we're speaking of is unlikely to be a risk to herd immunity. There does need to be stricter guidelines on the usage of religious exemptions. Parents are abusing them and treating them equivalent to philosophical objections when they have no faith or belong to a faith that doesn't have doctrinal objection.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  3. Does this help? by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    Will this convince anyone? It seems anti-vaxxers have already decided to make up their mind independent of scientific studies.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  4. Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation by TimothyHollins · · Score: 5, Informative

    Like parents who don't vaccinate do so because they are noticing signs of autism and sometimes they are right. Or something else entirely. In either case, you can't claim both that there is no link and that vaccine cuts down on autism. If authors really wanted to claim no link, they should have said that the difference is below statistical noise at their sample size.

    No, they didn't want to draw those conclusions since there were confounding factors.

    From TFA:

    "Another drawback is the potential for some kids to have undiagnosed autism before getting the MMR vaccine, which could make the MMR vaccine appear linked to autism when it really isn’t connected, the study authors note. It’s also possible that the onset of autism symptoms might lead parents to skip the vaccine. "

    They don't feel confident noting a correlation since the numbers are within the margin of error. What can safely be concluded is that there is no increase in autism in the vaccinated group.

  5. Great but by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · · Score: 2

    As with every other bias this study won't convince most of the anti-vaxers because they've already formed a strong belief and they will only accept the "information" which furthers their irrational point of view which is lacking any reasoning and is not based on facts.

    1. Re:Great but by bobbied · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They have their ONE study, performed by a now discredited doctor who lost his medical license for his lack of ethical research techniques and lack of effective peer reviews. The study has been condemned as wrong for decades, but you can bet they will quote from that one....

      In the mean time, 120,000 kids a year die around the world from the illness prevented by the MMR vaccine.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  6. Make childhoods disease great again by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Informative

    Reminder: Donald Trump is an anti-vaxxer.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/...

    The wife of Bill Shine, Trump's communications chief of staff, is also an anti-vaxxer.

    https://www.usnews.com/news/po...

    Rand Paul is an anti-vaxxer.

    https://thehill.com/policy/hea...

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Make childhoods disease great again by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fine collection of terminally stupid people you have there. With followers of the same nature.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Make childhoods disease great again by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Ad hominem attacks is exactly why I don't bother discussing vaccinations with many people.

      And the little fact that you are utterly stupid and will get a lot of push-back have nothing to do with it? Keep lying to yourself.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  7. Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable? by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Traditional, long time used vaccines have a proven track record. However, to suggest vaccines are 100% safe isn't honest. For as misguided as many anti-vaxxors are, they're not completely wrong. There are real, documented safety issues with some vaccines.

    If vaccines are so safe, then why are vaccine manufactures NOT liable.

    Because the government, while acknowledging that vaccines are not 100% safe, still mandates vaccinations with some exceptions. Because getting vaccines is mandatory and there are known but rare side effects it makes sense that government bears the liability, not the manufacturers, and has paid out well over 1 billion dollars in claims for injury due to vaccine (do you know what the highest payout rate is? Tetanus).

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  8. Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation by bobbied · · Score: 4, Informative

    This has been studied many times in the last decade or two. Always with the same result....

    What they are saying is there is no INCREASED risk of autism in kids who got the MMR vaccine and those who didn't. They are saying that correlation does not imply causation and in this case, MMR didn't cause autism. They are, however, acknowledging that the onset of autism happens to coincide with the giving of MMR vaccine. This is because autism is diagnosed at about the same time as it becomes apparent in the developmental delays about the same time as the vaccine is given. They are debunking the logic error used by the antivaxx dogma to push their mistake.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  9. You don't say... by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Incidentally, the original "study" (long since found to be scientific fraud) the anti-vaxxers like to use for their "arguments" did not claim that either. It claimed that a specific competing product had that flaw but their own did not. Hence there never actually was a study that claimed that in general measles vaccination cause autism.

    But anti-vaxxers do not live in this reality. They cannot recognize a fact when it stares them in the face.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:You don't say... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Wakefield wasn't an anti-vaxxer originally. He wanted the MMR banned so his competing vaccine would rake in cash. When that didn't work and he smelled money from anti-vaxxers, he jumped on their bandwagon and started selling them snake oil.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  10. Turns out cars, trains & airplanes dangerous, by Kevoco · · Score: 2

    We should definitely just walk around

  11. Re:Learn something by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Informative

    The problem is a lot of people are looking for 100% safe. Nothing is 100% safe, it never will be.

    The direction towards progress is choosing the options that are safer then the options.
    So the problems you get with a Vaccine is in general much less then the problems you have without it. Sometime when I get my Work Mandated Flu shot, I feel a little ill for a week. But that is still better then actually getting the Flu, and spreading it to people who may not be able to get the Flu shot (Immune system problems).

    Vaccines work by telling your body there is a dangerous infection in your body. So your body creates Antibodies to fight it. This puts extra stress on your body, but if you are of relatively good health you can deal with it. And that stress will do less harm then the stress of an actual infection.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  12. You know what's frustrating? by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    we've got talented people researching nonsense like this where the answer is already well known because we figured that out in the clinical trials before the vaccine went into use.

    My mom, God rest her, was an anti-vaxxer and a nurse. A well trained Research Nurse for Pete's sake. This isn't anything new.

    I'd like to figure out why the anti-vaxxer crowd believes this crap. Not the ones selling books and movies, those guys are in it for the money. I mean the rank and file. They're not just stupid. Heck, a lot of them have college degrees. If anything that's what we need to research, how do you get so many people to believe something so wrong?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:You know what's frustrating? by sheramil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd like to figure out why the anti-vaxxer crowd believes this crap. Not the ones selling books and movies, those guys are in it for the money. I mean the rank and file. They're not just stupid.

      First, i thought we'd all agreed to stop calling them "anti-vaxxers" and to start calling them "pro-plague-ers". Second, they can either believe there's something wrong with their genetics, or they can believe it was something that was done to them by Big Pharma. Guess which option is more attractive, to hell with the evidence?

    2. Re:You know what's frustrating? by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Conspiracies resonate. That's what it boils down to. Couple the notion that anti-vax is about a conspiracy to harm your child with the extreme fear you get of anything hurting your child during your first child's early years (I found the anxiety almost crippling myself - never enough to refuse to vaccinate on the other hand, and I found myself being furious with one of my wife's friends who started promoting this bullshit to her), and you have a bomb of doubt and uncertainty primed and ready to go off.

      I think in some ways it's more surprising it's not more popular than, say, the ludicrous Benghazi or Birth Certificate type conspiracies, because there's no personal investment in either of those two. It doesn't matter if Obama had been an alien from another planet, it was never going to affect me personally. But a conspiracy of giant corporations and the government wanting to hurt my kid just so they can make more money? (Especially in an environment in which this has happened before - such as with tobacco.) I can see why someone would start to seriously worry about the truth of that, and let that worry take them over.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:You know what's frustrating? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My mom, God rest her, was an anti-vaxxer and a nurse. A well trained Research Nurse for Pete's sake. This isn't anything new. I'd like to figure out why the anti-vaxxer crowd believes this crap. Not the ones selling books and movies, those guys are in it for the money. I mean the rank and file. They're not just stupid. Heck, a lot of them have college degrees. If anything that's what we need to research, how do you get so many people to believe something so wrong?

      I wish I knew as well. It's not, IMHO, a function of education but fear and guilt that drives the anti-vaxers and gets people caught up in it. I knew and educated couple whose daughter was autistic. They blamed in on vaccines since she was diagnosed right after she was vaccinated. Trying to explain that correlation does not imply causation and that autism symptoms tend to be first noticed around the age kids get vaccinated was useless; all it did was cement their belief they were right. I would guess they did not want to believe they rolled the genetic dice and lost; they also believed their daughter would be cured if only the school system did what they wanted. I understand their anguish what I found bad was the mom would hand out anti-vax pamphlets to parents of young kids she saw at the bus stop "So they would not have the same thing happen to them." She did not like it when someone points out she is full of shit.

      Wanting to believe something else was at fault, and not nature, is a powerful force. Add in the guilt form thinking you did something to harm your child is also a powerful motivator to strike back at the cause of the problem, even if it is not really the cause. Then you have celebrities that push your opinion and thus reenforce it; because by God if they are celebrities they have to be right and everyone knows the common man or women is smarter than some pointy headed intellectual .that has no common sense and is spending too much time in an ivory tower to see what is really happening.

      Sometimes education can be a detriment, as you see patterns that aren't there because you are used to seeing patterns and drawing conclusions; and may have a world view where a giant vaccine conspiracy by big pharma makes sense. I've also run into plenty of highly educated idiots as well.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    4. Re:You know what's frustrating? by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

      The follow up to this is that countries (still today) that lack clean water, clean food and clean living conditions still get diseases that vaccines supposedly cure.

      This'll really blow your mind. States (or areas/populations within states) that lack access to clean water, food, and living conditions also lack the medical infrastructure necessary to enact state-wide vaccination programs. Shocking, I know.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    5. Re:You know what's frustrating? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2

      Data is why I won't vaccinate. Do some research, real deep research and look at the actual data.

      I have.

      Yes, improving sanitation goes a long way toward preventing plagues. The ancient Romans knew this. Medieval Europe somehow forgot it, and caused the evolution of nearly every major plague in their filthy living conditions. The cities of Medieval Europe were the real Pandora's Box, unleashing the horrors of disease on the planet that had never been seen before. No other population on Earth had as much contact with their own feces and with animal feces as Medieval Europeans did for centuries.

      So the Dark Ages happened, and can't be undone. The diseases now exist. Vaccination is how we have been slowly slowly clawing our way back to the pre-Medieval state of the microscopic world. With aggressive vaccination we finally eradicated smallpox. We can't beat influenza anytime soon but we can beat rubella, mumps, and measles. And we will do it with vaccination, the same as with smallpox. Sanitation is NOT enough for all the airborne diseases. Vaccination is required.

      You have data, but lack the intelligence to understand the data. You are attempting to do science, because you have formulated a hypothesis, but you are failing because you are unable to understand that your hypothesis existed long before you were born, was tested, and was found incorrect. If your hypothesis was correct, we would still have smallpox in the world today. We do not.

      Obligatory personal attack: you're a moron.

  13. Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable? by shilly · · Score: 2

    No-one claims they're 100% safe. Not the government, not medics, and not the manufacturers. They specifically warn of a bunch of risks, on package inserts that look like this: https://www.fda.gov/downloads/...

    And they're given a liability carve-out because they're at risk of strategic lawsuits designed to shut them down, orchestrated by a coalition of the dumb and the fuckers.

  14. Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation by gweihir · · Score: 2

    Indeed. The finding of no positive correlation has larger significance because the numbers are skewed to imply the negative correlation. But since the other finding is within the margin of error, they just comment on possible explanation, but do not state them as results. This is an exceptionally important difference, even if it seems to fly right over many people's heads.

    So:
    1. Vaccination does cause autism: Strong, reliable negative finding. This does not happen.
    2. Non-vaccination does cause autism: Weak indication, within margin of error, may have other explanation and the scientist offer a few potential ones

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  15. Re:If So Safe, Why Are Vaccine Makers NOT Liable? by Gilgaron · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The carve out is because vaccines are necessary for the public health, expensive to research, low margin, and you get to sell them to your customers a handful of times at most. Basic vaccine research is already mostly financed by the government since otherwise pharma is financially better off researching new kinds of Viagra or opioids instead of vaccines.

  16. Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation by gweihir · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fighting epidemics is not totalitarianism. It is species survival. It justifies killing people if nothing else is available to stem the tide. If some people think they can endanger society as a whole, force has to be applied to stop their behavior. This is not nice, but necessary. If you do not get that, you have no place in society.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  17. Re:Seven percent less likely means correlation by gtall · · Score: 2

    omfglearntoplay: Doctor, I have this lump, it's growing larger.

    Doctor: Hmmm...that's looks serious, we need a biopsy (takes sample)

    Weeks later:

    omfglearntoplay: Well Doctor?

    Doctor: I'm afraid I have bad news. You have ear lobe cancer.

    omfglearntoplay: Well, cut off then.

    Doctor: Won't help, it's already metastasized, you are going do die unless you undergo chemo-therapy.

    omfglearntoplay: No, I do not believe modern medicines.

    Doctor: Ummm...could you please tell me your next of kin (address, tele. ph., etc), I'd like to know where I should send the bills should you croak before you pay them.

  18. Re:Learn something by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nobody pretends there are no side effects from vaccines. Vaccination is a matter of chances. How likely is it to catch a disease? How likely are lasting effects? And how likely are lasting effects from the vaccine?

    And there are VERY few cases of vaccines that are offered to the public AT ALL where that chance balance doesn't tip heavily towards "you're a fucking moron if you refuse vaccination".

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.