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Elizabeth Warren Calls For a National Right-to-Repair Law for Tractors (vice.com)
Massachusetts Senator and Democratic Presidential hopeful Elizabeth Warren has become the highest profile politician to support right to repair legislation in the United States. From a report: On Wednesday, Warren outlined a sweeping plan to support family farms and diminish the power of corporate agriculture. At the top of the list, she supports a national right-to-repair law for tractors and other agricultural equipment. That means she supports the simple idea that people who own a tractor should be able to repair it without permission from John Deere or any other manufacturer. "Farmers should be able to repair their own equipment or choose between multiple repair shops," Warren said in a Medium post outlining her proposal. "That's why I strongly support a national right-to-repair law that empowers farmers to repair their equipment without going to an authorized agent." For now, Warren's proposal would apply only to farm equipment, not consumer electronics.
[...] Farmers operating John Deere tractors have been fighting against John Deere's repair monopoly for years. Device manufacturers don't want people repairing their own stuff and they've taken pains to make it difficult to do so. Newer John Deere equipment comes loaded with software and firmware that make it impossible for farmers to fix their own equipment. Instead, they have to call an authorized dealer and wait for them to show up -- a fix that's too slow and too costly for a farmer. "The national right-to-repair law should require manufacturers of farm equipment to make diagnostic tools, manuals, and other repair-related resources available to any individual or business, not just their own dealerships and authorized agents," Warren said. "This will not only allow individuals to fix their own equipment -- reducing delays -- but it will also create competition among dealers and independent repair shops, bringing down prices overall." Further reading: Grandson of Legendary John Deere Inventor Calls Out Company On Right To Repair.
[...] Farmers operating John Deere tractors have been fighting against John Deere's repair monopoly for years. Device manufacturers don't want people repairing their own stuff and they've taken pains to make it difficult to do so. Newer John Deere equipment comes loaded with software and firmware that make it impossible for farmers to fix their own equipment. Instead, they have to call an authorized dealer and wait for them to show up -- a fix that's too slow and too costly for a farmer. "The national right-to-repair law should require manufacturers of farm equipment to make diagnostic tools, manuals, and other repair-related resources available to any individual or business, not just their own dealerships and authorized agents," Warren said. "This will not only allow individuals to fix their own equipment -- reducing delays -- but it will also create competition among dealers and independent repair shops, bringing down prices overall." Further reading: Grandson of Legendary John Deere Inventor Calls Out Company On Right To Repair.
I don't think technological progress should be slowed down by right to repair laws. Instead, what would be nice are full blown service manuals that detail how to dismantle, how to probe, a BOM, and so on.
If there was an obligation to make that material easily (though not necessarily freely) available, I think that's all we'd need.
Those who know what they are doing can start their own repair business, or repair items themselves, and those that don't know what they are doing can go to a repair shop.
I mean, this is how life was like at one point. *shrug*
Why the narrow thinking? This is a good idea for many more classes of items.
So the farm lobby has greased her palm but what about the rest of us?
I'd like to be able to own things also. You know out of box admin access to my phone without jailbreaking. I'd like to be able to tell game consoles to do what I want them to do rather than what Sony, MS want them to do.
If I buy a TV I do not want someone else making money off my property by having it show me pop up ads by default.
The real root of this problem is the government's protection of corporations via IP laws.
If IP laws didn't exist, John Deere and anybody else would have no leverage with which to prevent their products from being repaired/altered by a customer or other business.
But of course, like any politician, Warren isn't addressing the root cause.
She just wants to levy another patchwork of thousands of pages of laws and regulations and pretend that fixes the problem when in actuality it'll have a myriad of second and third order effects on the economy in various foreseeable and unforeseeable ways.
Darn it!
Now this very practical bit of needed legislation will become politicized. Republicans will oppose it as a knee jerk reaction and Trump will create an agency or executive order banning all aftermarket repairs.
This is not an anti Republican post. Both sides do this with every thing. As an independent I'm thoroughly sick of it.
Forget tractors!
There needs to be a right to repair Politicians!
Bought a Long Tractor because they were cheap and it was the same one the state of Virginia was using. When it inevitably broke down, he just plain couldn't get the parts to fix it, so it just sat out in the yard for several years, immovable. Not sure if he ever got rid of it.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Just kidding. Sen. Warren's too smart to go sit on a tractor (I hope).
she is still not white enough for you.
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Why doesn't she put forth legislation to that effect? If she waits till elected President, she'll have to convince someone in either chamber of Congress to put the bill forward.
She's not helpless, she needs to step up.
Ken
You do realize that Sanders cannot spend his campaign money on anything except campaigning?
Campaigns are required to report on how they spend their campaign money. I'm too lazy to chase down examples right now, but my observation is that both parties have messed up handling or reporting of campaign money from time to time. They have to fix the problem and possibly pay a fine. But the point is, candidates cannot do whatever they want with campaign money.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
if modern tractors are anything like modern cars they are full of computers. Modern cars require really expensive computer diagnostic equipment that makes it impractical to repair them on your own. What her proposal might do though is open it up to 3rd party repair shops that could do it a lot cheaper than the dealer would.
True. but it is easier finding the error if you have the right interface and software.
After having my type-r at the official dealer 3 times and $2000 later without them actually being able to fix my ac which only worked for 10 minutes after starting the car, I managed to diagnose it in 20 minutes using the repair manual and a the official interface and software myself. (Worm down clutch basic really)
I wonder how long it would have taken them not to fix it. I gave he idiots a detailed description and asked them to drive it for 20 minutes afterwards to test it out.
Iâ(TM)ll just leave the name here for google to index. It was Henrik Larsen Automobiler now called P. Christensen. Overpriced wankers.
L'Idiot
It's probably reasonable for a 3rd party service shop to be able to reflash a component to a known good factory-provided image.
Your point stands, though. These right-to-repair laws need to be written sensibly. There are all sorts of dangerous scenarios if someone is allowed to freely poke around in firmware. And it is perfectly reasonable to insist on some level of training and certification for servicing certain sensitive parts.
The baseline standard should be that a sufficiently trained & certified 3rd party shop should be able to perform the same sorts of common repairs that your own internal service personnel are trained to perform.
The tricky thing to legislate around is security. What if a product has a good reason to implement lockouts for non-standard code or components? The motivation could at least plausibly be for security or safety reasons.
True. but it is easier finding the error if you have the right interface and software.
After having my type-r at the official dealer 3 times and $2000 later without them actually being able to fix my ac which only worked for 10 minutes after starting the car, I managed to diagnose it in 20 minutes using the repair manual and a the official interface and software myself. (Worm down clutch basic really)
I wonder how long it would have taken them not to fix it. I gave he idiots a detailed description and asked them to drive it for 20 minutes afterwards to test it out.
Iâ(TM)ll just leave the name here for google to index. It was Henrik Larsen Automobiler now called P. Christensen. Overpriced wankers.
Lots of shops have limited expertise. They are just parts-changers. It's rough on the consumers.
The article mentioned service manuals were available but did not mention diagnostic tools. There is a big difference between diagnostics and ECU modding/reflashing. Some speed shops do it, like http://www.ivansperformancepro... . I'm planning to do this for one of my rides, but it definitely voids the warranty.
Any politics involving tractors always reminds me of British PM John Major's bizarre "Get Your Tractors Off Our Lawn" speech and makes me smile.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
I like Bernie more because while Warren gets more done she, like a lot of Democrats, is a bit too defeatist. Democrats give up too easy, even when a position is 70-90% popular. Warren's already backed off Medicare for All into a public option. Now, I know what she's up to (a properly implemented public option would quickly out-compete private, for profit insurance programs) but the trouble is the other side isn't negotiating in good faith, and will use cyclic political changes to undermine the law. They did it with Obamacare, where a popular law is currently on the chopping block because it's been systematically undermined.
I want Warren and the whole of the Dems to stop reaching across the isle. Everytime they do the GOP moves a little further right to escape their grasp. That's how we got Trump, and that's how we got to the point where we're talking about turning Social Security into a Welfare Program.
Back in the 90s Newt Gingrich and the GOP came up with "A Contract for America" which when you stripped away the niceties was a plan to block everything the other side did no matter what while advancing the most radical ideas of their party. It completely revitalized the GOP. The Dems need something like that. They need to draw a line in the sand and say "This is who we are, and this is what's right. This is what we're doing". On the plus side most of their positions (Medicare for All, $15/minimum wage, Tuition Free college, childcare, paid family medical leave, public works and infrastructure programs, etc, etc) are overwhelmingly popular.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
He brought the Green New Deal up for a vote.... and the vote to limit the national emergency powers of the President.
Don't remove the restraining bolt or those droids will run off into the hills. There will be no end to the trouble.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Did you seriously just reference a fox story? What next the weekly world news? CNN?
The reality is farmers own their machines less and less. Outside of simple tractors they are too complex and too expensive. Combines today are processing plants on wheels. Pass this and they will just stop selling altogether and only lease.
You want things opened up give manufacturers immunity from liability. Manufacturers don't care about few hundred dollars in service work. The dealer gets most of that anyway. They care about a multi-million dollar lawsuit because some idiot bypassed the safety lock and ground himself into kibble. Jurys don't care about who's really at fault. they just see a poor farmer and a billion dollar company.
The fact is these companies can be fined and sued for things they allow others to do with their product.
Just make an DMCA exemptions so hosting leaked software for repair / restore images is 100% legal.
Something only possible because of laws that discriminate against her racially.
That is like striking someone's hand when they are about to pull the trigger. Sometimes you have to commit a small evil to prevent a greater miscarriage of justice. Our founders did that when they rebelled against England. Granted, the severity is less than either of those two examples but nonetheless she committed a small offense to prevent a great one.
I would think most sane people identify as black women on any forms these days.
Also, it is worth pointing out that technically you can't lie about those things. Race is literally defined as what you identify as legally. That was firmly established because many Hispanic Puerto Ricans identify as white and there aren't actually legitimate definitions for race.
Why the f--- do we no longer have the right to repair something we bought?
What nation wide law was passed that took that right away?
What's next, bread that we aren't allowed to slice?
No brain, no pain.
Not sure when you were a mechanic, but ABS, Airbags, security, etc, etc usually require dealer diagnostic tools to reset warnings. Some stuff can be done with generic ODB tools, but many things can't. Add to that a tractor has a whole lot of hydraulic systems that a car doesn't, and there is a lot of scope for needing to be able to update settings held in the ECU or related control units.
I think you are confusing what they mean by "reprogram" (although plenty of places will do reprogramming of maps on ECUs, it often requires an aftermarked ECU anyway).
I've worked on all this. As I wrote, I do not know what the situation is with regards to tractor diagnostic tool availability from the manufacturer or aftermarket.
Reading live and freeze-frame diagnostics and resetting diagnostic codes is in no way "reprogramming". I think the article author is confused (or is deliberately confusing) the line is between legitimate diagnostic interaction and modding.
Instead, just make it so if a company requires repairs be done through themselves or their authorized dealer chain, then the repairs are free. i.e. If the company wants to insist on exclusivity of repairs for 10 years, then their product basically has to have a 10 year warranty. If they want to insist on exclusivity forever, then the product is warranted forever.
The advantage is that a right to repair law can be challenged on the grounds that it's violating the manufacturer's right to offer its products for sale in whatever fashion it sees fit. If you do it my way, companies can still do what John Deere does with tractors, or Epson does with chipped printer cartridges, or Apple does with iPhones. But if they elect to do it that way, then the purchase essentially becomes a lease - the lessee gets use of the product, but the lessor is responsible for the maintenance and repair costs (not always obvious, but if your leased car breaks down and is too expensive to repair, you can just walk away from the lease and leave the car company to eat the loss on their broken product, not you). And the legal framework for leases is very well established so is unlikely to be overturned by a court challenge.
Basically, don't set up a confrontation between the buyer's right to repair and the seller's right to design a product as they see fit. Instead, channel products which come without restrictions on the owner into purchases, while products where the manufacturer retains control over after possession is transferred to the "buyer" become leases.
Plenty of the parts have DRM on the firmware that prevents them from working in the tractor until an approved person unlocks it. So you can install the new parts all you want, but they won't work until John Deere sends someone out to activate the new parts.
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
Typical: Someone in power shows signs of getting it and the response is to shit all over them. Nice job.
They all 'get it'. They just don't care. Sometimes a few decide to pretend to care thinking it will get them votes. Then when it's time to pay the piper, they reneg.
unless they have a crane or ultra heavy lifting gear not much they can do that's major ..and when it comes to high end drive by wire {joystick} and GPS auto nav why would they wish to re-flash or mess with something i could actually kill someone by mistake
You can design anything you like but you can't necessarily sell it. Specifically products have to comply with the FCC and UL just a name a couple groups of regulations.
An anti-obsolescence law against waste would be very American. And it would strengthen the security of the country. Products do need minimum standards.
David Duke jumped back to Democrat, he hates Donald Trump
[cite needed]
And don't link to fake news sites, please.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Did she suggest or introduce legislation regarding this before announcing her desire to be president?
Hey at least it wasn't a link to breitbart or 8chan.
You know, Fox is respectable fake news.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
She will probably forget about all these ideas fast, should she get elected.
This is why we're screwed. Even when someone from the "other side" comes up with something you really like you cannot bring yourself to say anything positive at all. Enjoy your partisan hellhole.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Story that says differently. AOC stole $1 million out of her campaign and pocketed it for personal use, hasn't been charged.
You're grossly mischaracterizing the Fox News story. Here's what it actually says:
- Saikat Chakrabarti (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez' chief of staff) transferred $885,000 from two PACs to two LLCs he controls.
- Such transfers (even large ones) are not uncommon.
- The PACs claimed the transfers were for "strategic consulting".
- The complaint (and that's all it is right now) alleges that this was an attempt to dodge FEC reporting requirements.
- The complaint was filed by the National Legal and Policy Center, a Virginia-based conservative organization.
So no, AOC did not "steal" money from her campaign and pocket it "for personal use". And it's hardly outrageous that she hasn't been charged, because at this point it's still just a complaint.
Reactions from several former FEC officials appear to be mixed. Chakrabarti has been very forthcoming with explanations of what he did and why. So it doesn't appear he's trying to hide anything.
TL/DR: this looks complicated, but let's not jump to conclusions.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
I work for John Deere, and while there are some controllers that require dealer intervention the vast, vast majority do not. Engine controllers are probably the biggest one, due to emissions regulations. Those regulations effectively require that to be the case. If the engine manufacturer cannot provide certain information, it can result in very large fines.
they have to call an authorized dealer and wait for them to show up -- a fix that's too slow and too costly for a farmer.
Why do they insist on buying John Deere tractors then? Isn't this where the invisible hand of the free market makes consumers prefer tractors that CAN be repaired on site by anyone, and where John Deere goes out of business because it can't sell tractors any more? I'm sure Ford or Massey or Tracto Universal or any of a hundred other tractor manufacturers wouldn't mind the extra business. There's something fishy here if a law is required.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Farmer Bill: Hey, John Deere, my tractor broke down. I need it fixed ASAP as the window for planting in Spring 2019 is closing.
John Deere: Sure, Bill, no problem. We'll get your tractor fixed at no charge - in time for the 2020 planting season.
Farmer Bill: I can't wait that long! If I can't plant my crop in time I'll lose my farm.
John Deere: We're happy to help. If you fork over $25,000 we'll get it fixed by Easter. $65,000 for expedited service if you want it by the weekend. Have a nice day!
Why would you ever take a car to a dealership for non-warranty service?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Oh, please. She's a stopped clock; occasionally right.
While I doubt she'll get far in the primaries, I hope she sticks with the issue -- she might be able to get it to the Democratic party's platform in exchange for her endorsement.
Liberal breaks law, other liberals give pass..
See Somollett in Chicago. One rule for them, another for you.
News at 11.
Anthony Weiner, Al Franken, Rod Blagojevich, John Conyers, and so on ... all were urged to resign by their fellow Democrats.
Ditto for the two guys in Virginia, although they have refused to leave (yet).
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
She's been working for people and against Wall Street for years.
I'm still supporting Bernie in the primaries, because she still thinks capitalism is somehow functional. But she's one of the good ones.
American capitalism is functional. Its just riddled with corruption because the foxes are guarding the henhouse, between the DOJ, SEC, and laws passed by Congress. The fault lies on the voters, because they have the power to remove politicians that are too brazenly deferential towards Wall Street.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
She's already committed to only accepting individual donations. Don't be a mean dunce.
You're simply wrong. When the government talks about reprogramming machines, it does include updating the settings. Don't confuse yourself with arguments about what you believe words are required to mean. Sometimes you have to learn that words mean different things in different situations.
And literally, when you clear a code, you're reprogramming the EEPROM values or something equivalent.
Regarding diagnostic tools, no, you're totally banned from having the tools currently, by manufacturer decree. There is no aftermarket.
The main thing this proposal does is to prevent the manufacturer from interfering with the aftermarket. (which would quickly appear, because these tractors are big business)
due to emissions regulations. Those regulations effectively require that to be the case.
Bullshit spill in the produce section
Well, you have either never seen this happening or you have not realized what was going on. I have seen this numerous times. Anybody that wants power on this level is corrupt and has no honor. No exceptions. So they will investigate what people want to hear, pick a group they think can give them a win and say anything tho please that group.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
It's a smart move for her if she' s running in 2020. I actually find it shocking to see a candidate make an "appeal to the grass roots" move like this.
There's nothing shocking about this. Warren is currently campaigning in Iowa, announced this right to repair for tractors, and also announced a plan to target large agri-business like Tyson. These are all maneuvers to get her in the heads of Iowa caucus members. The caucus tend to result with all but two to four candidates dropping out. She may never bring it up again after Feb 3, 2020.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
I hoped they could fix the problem so I didn’t have to fix it myself. Clearly I was wrong.
I retrospect I also remember that I paid to have my disc brakes in back cleaned as I hadn’t been doing any track days for a while and they hadn’t been exercised enough. When I switched the tires two days later the metal rims that were on the car was rusted and completely stuck. They clearly hadn’t removed them to clean anything.
Blah. Guess I learned my lesson the expensive way.
L'Idiot
She will probably forget about all these ideas fast, should she get elected.
That's being optimistic. She'll forget about it after Feb 3, 2020 with the Iowa caucuses over.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
"Sorry you are so fucking stupid that you don't realize whatever news outlet you use has outright lied to you for two years and I guess you still believe them."
No, I'm just not stupid enough to believe there is one that doesn't lie. The problem with the liberal media post Trump is that they've become more like Fox which has never had problems lying not only through omission but with outright false reporting all along.
Race is an artificial concept determined by self-identification because there is no definition. She didn't lie because you can't lie whatever box you check is what you are legally speaking.
Are you really claiming there is an option out there who hasn't done far worse than this? Seriously is that really the best dirt they can come up with to disparage the woman who spearheaded banking reform and is the reason you don't pay hundreds in overdraft fees because the bank reordered transactions when you really had one overdraft of .56 cents in the actual order you paid that day?
My wife works in finance, she hates Warren as a worker for all the reasons she supports her as a candidate. All those consumer protections in lending she put in. If you aren't filthy rich you should be supporting a Sanders/Warren ticket. Don't let a man making $250k/yr (or whatever senators are up to now) buying a $600k beach house within his means or a woman who supposedly fibbed on a form when she was a kid throw you off. The other options either aren't qualified or definitely have way more dirt in their closets than this.
What matters is how they vote and who they fight for. Not any dirt someone comes up with for a smear campaign no matter what it is. I don't believe either of these are up to anything particularly dirty but even if they were I don't really care. We have executives and politicians pocketing millions and even billions all over the map and we shouldn't throw away people in the system who are actually going to fight for real people just to pick another one of those who is better with laundry.
Basing policies on something you can't even define is immoral not checking a box to get around the immoral policies.
If something is legal to do by oneself, it should always be legal to pay someone else to do it for you.
...
Most stealerships have, at most, one or two competent techs. The rest are cheap (to them).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
It's shocking to me because it seems like every DC politician has forgotten that voters even exist, except to occasionally mock them. A candidate that actually campaigns? That doesn't act like she entitled to the office? It's a refreshing change, to be sure.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Indeed.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Republicans ... be for corruption? Yep. It checks out.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Between gerrymandered districts, incredibly huge amounts of corporate cash going into PACs to run ads and way voter opinion, poor education and the like, is it really only the fault of the voters that the USA is seeing such huge problems.