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Researchers Trick Tesla Autopilot Into Steering Into Oncoming Traffic (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Researchers have devised a simple attack that might cause a Tesla to automatically steer into oncoming traffic under certain conditions. The proof-of-concept exploit works not by hacking into the car's onboard computing system. Instead, it works by using small, inconspicuous stickers that trick the Enhanced Autopilot of a Model S 75 into detecting and then following a change in the current lane. Researchers from Tencent's Keen Security Lab recently reverse-engineered several of Tesla's automated processes to see how they reacted when environmental variables changed. One of the most striking discoveries was a way to cause Autopilot to steer into oncoming traffic. The attack worked by carefully affixing three stickers to the road. The stickers were nearly invisible to drivers, but machine-learning algorithms used by by the Autopilot detected them as a line that indicated the lane was shifting to the left. As a result, Autopilot steered in that direction.

The researchers noted that Autopilot uses a variety of measures to prevent incorrect detections. The measures include the position of road shoulders, lane histories, and the size and distance of various object. [A section of the researchers' 37-page report] showed how researchers could tamper with a Tesla's autowiper system to activate wipers on when rain wasn't falling. Unlike traditional autowiper systems -- which use optical sensors to detect moisture -- Tesla's system uses a suite of cameras that feeds data into an artificial intelligence network to determine when wipers should be turned on. The researchers found that -- in much the way it's easy for small changes in an image to throw off artificial intelligence-based image recognition (for instance, changes that cause an AI system to mistake a panda for a gibbon) -- it wasn't hard to trick Tesla's autowiper feature into thinking rain was falling even when it was not. So far, the researchers have only been able to fool autowiper when they feed images directly into the system. Eventually, they said, it may be possible for attackers to display an "adversarial image" that's displayed on road signs or other cars that do the same thing.
In a statement, Tesla officials said that the vulnerabilities addressed in the report have been fixed via security update in 2017, "followed by another comprehensive security update in 2018, both of which we released before this group reported this research to us." They added: "The rest of the findings are all based on scenarios in which the physical environment around the vehicle is artificially altered to make the automatic windshield wipers or Autopilot system behave differently, which is not a realistic concern given that a driver can easily override Autopilot at any time by using the steering wheel or brakes and should always be prepared to do so and can manually operate the windshield wiper settings at all times."

186 comments

  1. would never work in real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You'd have to be able to predict the future to know exactly where to place the stickers where the assassination victim would head-on the truck coming the other way

    1. Re:would never work in real life by Narcocide · · Score: 1

      Clearly you've never lived anywhere with traffic or freeways.

    2. Re:would never work in real life by kilfarsnar · · Score: 2

      You'd have to be able to predict the future to know exactly where to place the stickers where the assassination victim would head-on the truck coming the other way

      After observing someone for a little while, you can start to predict their movements. Most people operate on a general routine and schedule. You can know their route to work, and approximately when they will get there. Your confederate could be driving the truck. I'm sure there are less elaborate ways to do someone in, however.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    3. Re: would never work in real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had no idea software could exhibit ignorance and hubris

    4. Re: would never work in real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you just place them in an area where almost everyone drives a Tesla like around Google or Facebook HQ.

    5. Re: would never work in real life by michelcolman · · Score: 2

      Just don't place the stickers on both sides or they will still miss each other.

    6. Re: would never work in real life by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Or you just place them in an area where almost everyone drives a Tesla like around Google or Facebook HQ.

      As long as its the people driving them its fine.

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    7. Re:would never work in real life by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      Heading into a concrete wall is also deadly at high enough speed. And that is much easier to do, since walls don't move.

    8. Re:would never work in real life by BKDotCom · · Score: 1
    9. Re: would never work in real life by saloomy · · Score: 1

      This wouldn't work on a freeway since they are generally divided by K-Rail which are too heavy to move without a crane.

      Lane markings are standard and set in a way for a very specific reason. There is a ton of regulations around how they work.

      Plus, even if you got the Tesla onto oncoming traffic, who's to say it wouldn't see the approaching car and ABS itself to a dead stop, which it is supposed to do. Hopefully, the other driver does the same!

    10. Re: would never work in real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously a luser problem. Won'tfix!

    11. Re:would never work in real life by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      it seems like it would work really well along hwy 1 here in CA. plus I don't think someone needs to be a hitman to try this. It just needs to be someone looking for a little anarchy who isn't thinking about consequences. Kids throw stuff off overpasses all the time just to see some shit happen.

      https://www.nytimes.com/1994/0...

      My mom's car was hit by a D battery thrown off an overpass once. She and her passenger saw the kids toss it. I don't think it was assassins.

      I was once driving hwy 45 through northern wisconsin when some kids in the woods rolled a car wheel down a hill at me. again, probably not assassins.

    12. Re:would never work in real life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it was assassins, just not very good ones, it's very expensive to hire assassins you know.

    13. Re:would never work in real life by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Also, this can be used without targeting. Just put some stickers on the road with frequent Tesla traffic, grab some popcorn and watch the mayhem. Bonus points for causing two Teslas to crash into each other.

    14. Re: would never work in real life by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      So the car steers into a concrete barrier and you think that's better, somehow? Sure it may save the people in the oncoming lane but driver sill dead. Also, I doubt even two Tesla S's coming at each other at highway speed would stop in time. That would be something I would have to see to believe.

      --
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  2. Film at 11 by MrLogic17 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, optical illusions fool a driver. They just fund a kind that fools a digital driver. Film at 11

    Because machines "think" very differently from people, the optical illusions will be very different. No surprise there,

    Next we'll get a headline that if you put a number sticker over speed limit signs, human drivers can be tricked into driving at the wrong speed - even though very clearly the stickers have the wrong UV patterns and react to LIDAR clearly in an altered way.

    1. Re:Film at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the fella who was denogginized by an 18 wheeler! Oh wait, you can't, LOL

    2. Re: Film at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was converted from a black person to a white one? Did his credit score go above 400 or something?

    3. Re:Film at 11 by Junta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The difference being a human that sees lane markers leading into active oncoming traffic will decide there are shenigans and not follow.

      It points to a big gap in machine learning strategies in general: Training generally happens focused on positive correlations and not a lot of injection of maliciously designed data. So a well trained model is dumb and just says 'training says always follow lines' and follows it right head on into traffic.

      This is also a sign of likely problems in road construction, where markings are frequently very messed up.

      This is not 'a machine can be fooled like a human', it's a reminder that the machine is still a *lot* dumber than a human.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    4. Re: Film at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was converted from a headed person to a headless one. His credit score is 0 now.

    5. Re:Film at 11 by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      The difference being a human that sees lane markers leading into active oncoming traffic will decide there are shenigans and not follow.

      I've seen lots of drivers do exactly this. That was in Montreal though, so it may be significantly less common elsewhere.

      It points to a big gap in machine learning strategies in general: Training generally happens focused on positive correlations and not a lot of injection of maliciously designed data.

      There's usually lots of negative data in training sets, but you're right, not so much malicious. But the real human-type armour against malicious data is noise and experience. The way these adversarial attacks work is to compute the steepest path gradient away from the right answer and design a pattern that exploits it. By the time a human is allowed to drive, it's brain has sifted through petabytes of noisy imaging data, so most of those quick, easy adversarial paths have been closed through random chance. Some are reinforced though, and we call those optical illusions.

    6. Re:Film at 11 by religionofpeas · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The difference being a human that sees lane markers leading into active oncoming traffic will decide there are shenigans and not follow.

      If there's active traffic, people will avoid it. But there are plenty of times that human drivers get confused by road markings, especially during construction, worn paint, poor lighting, rain, and blinding headlights from oncoming traffic.

    7. Re:Film at 11 by houghi · · Score: 1

      The difference being a human that sees lane markers leading into active oncoming traffic will decide there are shenigans and not follow.

      There are people who will blindly follow their GPS and cause accidents. People who drive into metro/tube lines.People who start driving in the wrong direction of a road and I have, at one moment, taken the wrong side of the road, due to the bad lines during contruction. Ther sun shing in my eyes through the wet road made it unpossible to see the difference between the white lines, removed line, cracks in the road and the yellow lines. So I had to guess and guessed wrong. Luckily only one thing died: my ego.

      The huge difference is not that people or smarter or less smart. The thing is that there are many people out there who would react differently. The majority will do fine, a few won't.

      If the Tesla has an issue, ALL Tesla's have an issue. And that can be bad. However to let ALL the people behave correctly will take much more efford than let the Tesla's ALL react correctly.

      And yes, all machines are dumber than humans. They are better than humans at many individual things. Playing chess, sure. Boxing. No issue. Both? Not so much.

      --
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    8. Re:Film at 11 by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      The difference being a human that sees lane markers leading into active oncoming traffic will decide there are shenigans and not follow.

      Complete bollocks. Care to set up a situation like that and see how many drivers follow the dots blindly?

      --
      No sig today...
    9. Re:Film at 11 by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2

      While it is little consolation to the deceased, I fail to see how placing markers designed to deliberately cause a car wreck is not pre-meditated murder. Someone could easily be lying in wait in the woods with a rifle and shoot drivers, or waiting on overpass to drop bricks. That latter one, sadly, happens with some regularity. Murdering people is pretty easy.

      I am more interested in cases where it gets confused by routine bad situations. Construction is one, although my experience is that the car is telling me to take over when it gets confused or cannot see markings. That said I have not trusted it enough to let it drive through construction on a freeway @85mph, I always take over.

    10. Re:Film at 11 by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      If the Tesla has an issue, ALL Tesla's have an issue.

      And ... one software update can fix them ALL. You can't do that with humans.

      --
      No sig today...
    11. Re:Film at 11 by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      Tell that to the fella who was denogginized by an 18 wheeler! Oh wait, you can't, LOL

      Ask this guy if he was glad to be in a Tesla when he fell asleep at the wheel:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      No sig today...
    12. Re:Film at 11 by slack_justyb · · Score: 1

      it's a reminder that the machine is still a *lot* dumber than a human

      Depends on the classification of dumb. We've all seen massively paradoxical things being done by drivers who were confused by the lane markings. Hell, rubbernecking leads to more crashes as attention is drawn off the road and onto the accident meaning the drive may not see the car in front of them slamming on the brakes. So really depending on how one defines "fooling the driver" one could easily say humans are just as easily fooled by things. The massive difference here is that while evolution of our brain's capacity happens on large time scales, a computer's function can increase drastically within the span of twenty-four months. Additionally, once one system is taught how not to be fooled, all systems learn in immediate fashion how also not to be fooled. Humans, however, have been told to not rubberneck time and time again and yet here we are.

    13. Re:Film at 11 by mysidia · · Score: 1

      If there's active traffic, people will avoid it. But there are plenty of times that human drivers get confused by road markings

      Yes.... But machines are supposed to be BETTER. Before self-driving cars are ready, they must be able to avoid jumping into the same lane as active oncoming traffic while traveling down a road or highway, even if the road markings are confusing or in error.

    14. Re:Film at 11 by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      denogginized

      Love it

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    15. Re:Film at 11 by larryjoe · · Score: 4, Informative

      The difference being a human that sees lane markers leading into active oncoming traffic will decide there are shenigans and not follow.

      Complete bollocks. Care to set up a situation like that and see how many drivers follow the dots blindly?

      Unfortunately this situation occurs quite frequently at road construction sites where new lanes are overlaid over existing lanes. The old and new sets of lane markings make lane localization difficult at times even for humans to know where the true lane lies. Often in these cases, the human will follow the preceding and surrounding traffic in an attempt to avoid collisions, even if the true lane appears to be otherwise.

    16. Re:Film at 11 by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Humans are very good at spotting things that are not really markings, such as spilt paint or ribbons blown into the road. White tape is fairly common in construction and often falls off vehicles.

      A human can spot a long tyre print made from spilt paint and not follow it. A machine... It can, but it needs to be trained and tested.

      What's most interesting here is that Tesla started out claiming Autopilot was amazing, and setting the drive attention detection system to be extremely lax. You could go for many minutes without your hands on the wheel. After a series of accidents, many of them involving similar situations, they reduced that to about 10 seconds.

      They have also cancelled real Full Self Driving, and replaced it with fake Full Self Driving that is actually just some level 2 driver aids which require full attention to operate safely.

      Worst of all they didn't even give these guys the bug bounty.

      --
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    17. Re:Film at 11 by geekymachoman · · Score: 1

      > This is not 'a machine can be fooled like a human', it's a reminder that the machine is still a *lot* dumber than a human.

      And it always will be, until it stops being a machine.

      It's the self preservation instinct that most modern people forget its there that keeps you alive in, among hundreds of other situations, this one too.

      Some of it its genetic .. it's "just there" and science still don't fully understand how. Some of it its learned by constantly falling down, bumping into things, scratching and damaging yourself more significantly (falling from a bicycle etc.),etc. and feeling pain, and realization that you can 'disappear' if you're not careful. (realization of death, accidental or otherwise).

      Cars could not give a fuck if you or it disappears because a sticker tricked it into changing lanes and banging into a road divider. Until it starts giving a fuck about its own life, I'm not trusting it with my life, no matter how many hours of "training" it had.

    18. Re:Film at 11 by larryjoe · · Score: 1

      While it is little consolation to the deceased, I fail to see how placing markers designed to deliberately cause a car wreck is not pre-meditated murder. Someone could easily be lying in wait in the woods with a rifle and shoot drivers, or waiting on overpass to drop bricks.

      While there are fortunately very few people who are demented enough to shoot at people on the highway, there are many cases of mischievous teenagers who toss rocks from overpasses onto unsuspecting drivers. I have no doubt that these teenagers would try the "fool the self-driving car camera" trick after reading about it.

    19. Re:Film at 11 by Mr.+Dollar+Ton · · Score: 2

      Or make them all go berserk. You can't do that with humans, but you surely can with things like OTA updatable Siemens centrifuges or vehicles.

    20. Re:Film at 11 by necro81 · · Score: 1

      I dunno, I think we'd all be better if we skipped all this talk of autonomous driving, and instead started teaching road runners how to drive for us. Things always seem to work just fine for the road runner.

    21. Re:Film at 11 by necro81 · · Score: 1

      Complete bollocks. Care to set up a situation like that and see how many drivers follow the dots blindly?

      There's a coyote and roadrunner joke here I can't quite pin down.

    22. Re:Film at 11 by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      The goal is "better than humans" as tens of thousands die every year, and not "perfect".

      So occasionally someone dies and some kid goes to jail, just like bowling balls to the head.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    23. Re:Film at 11 by lazarus · · Score: 1

      I get your point. But because we live in the age of sensationalist headlines the authors never bothered to tell you that, although it would steer into on-coming traffic, if there WERE actually on-coming traffic it would start blaring at you (loud enough to wake the dead), automatically braking, shaking the wheel, etc. Ask me how I know...

      My personal feeling about autopilot / partial self-driving (owning a car that has it) is that I am not a fan. EVs are awesome, but I think autonomous operation of a vehicle should be reserved for emergency situations (like I'm having a stroke, or I've fallen asleep) in which case it only needs to get me safely to the side of the road and call someone for help.

      --
      I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
    24. Re:Film at 11 by Megol · · Score: 1

      Machines doesn't think as you probably understand which is why this is a problem - the machine can be fooled but doesn't detect that what fools it isn't logical. A human generally detect those cases and adapt to the situation. The problem is the reliance of pseduo-AI pattern matching without the actual AI, the part that would make the machine "think".
      Another problem is the sensitivity of current systems in that small patterns that just would make a human somewhat confused instead is detected as a highly accurate match for something completely different, this have been demonstrated with many types of NN image classifiers with funny examples like a turtle being detected as a weapon: https://www.theverge.com/2017/...

    25. Re:Film at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see how autopilot could handle this type of scenario perfectly in every situation and that seems like it would be a requirement. I have good eye sight but I still get confused at some road constuction areas. You nailed it that you just have to watch everyone else and attempt to follow their pattern... hoping they are doing the right thing or not turning on an offroad.

    26. Re:Film at 11 by ripvlan · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Humans can be fooled - sure. But if the paint has peeled off the roadway, or is covered with snow, or somebody shot holes in the speed limit sign, or something else "out of the ordinary" our brains immediately detect "situation not normal" and we quickly come up with plan B. Computers though apparently stay on plan A until they hit a wall.

      Situation Normal, Situation Normal, Situation Normal .... Deploy Airbags!

      The story was put forward as a security event. I think in the end though that "machine is still a *lot* dumber" holds true. These autopilot systems are novel and point to the future, but have a long long way to go. Exception processing is difficult.

    27. Re:Film at 11 by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Because machines "think" very differently from people, the optical illusions will be very different. No surprise there.

      I'd like to preface this comment with a disclaimer: I am not attacking or insulting you in this comment; you just happen to be exemplar of an point I've made in the past.
      So-called 'machine learning', 'deep learning algorithms', 'neural networks', and everything else they're erroneously calling 'Artificial Intelligence' these day, is completely and totally incapable of 'thinking', 'cognition', 'consciousness', 'sentience', or any other major feature and phenomenon that we associate with actual Intellgence. An insect is more intelligent than even the best that the so-called 'AI' they keep trotting out can manage. Your family pet is more 'intelligent', 'cognitive', and 'self aware' by orders of magnitude than anything humans have been able to write software for. This isn't even an insult against software engineers or 'AI researchers', it's merely a statement of fact.
      We neither have an understanding of how a human (or any other biological brain, for that matter) is capable of what we refer to as 'thinking', nor do we even have the technological capability to understand how that works in a biological brain, because we just plain don't have the instrumentation technology to 'see' a living, working brain in action at the resolution and sensitivity to actually map out all the processes within it to actually map out all of it's functions as a complete, living, working system. Until we're able to do that, they're all just making educated guesses as to how these things work.

      Meanwhile, between the marketing departments of companies that produce these so-called 'AIs', the news media (who have even less of an understanding of it, apparently, than most people), and television, movies, and other media sources, people in general have been given a false, 'science fantasy' impression of this so-called 'AI' technology. I am firmly convinced that there are a shocking number of people who actually believe that their 'self driving car', when they get it, is going to have conversations with them just like talking to another human being -- just like they've seen in TV shows and movies.
      This is the real danger of 'AI': the anthropomorphizing of a half-assed technology, leading to trusting it way, way too much, with things way too important -- like human lives.

      The 'exploit' researchers discovered, as reported in this news story, is something that any human driver -- even a brand-new one with little time behind the wheel -- would not have been fooled by. The only permanent 'fix' for them is 'General AI': an actually cognitive, aware, 'awake' AI, that functions entirely like a human mind -- and that technology is currently out of our reach, and will remain so until there is a major breakthrough in neurological research. The current approach to 'AI' is fundamentally flawed and dangerously limited and will continue to be subject to failures like this one because it cannot now and never will be able to actually 'think'. As such it is not suitable for piloting a vehicle in real-world conditions -- not even if all there was on the roads was 'self driving cars'. There are too many variables even if you remove all humans from the equation -- and that's never going to happen either. Machines are made to serve mankind -- not the other way around. If we have to compromise ourselves in order to make 'self driving cars' viable, the the 'technology' is a failure.

    28. Re:Film at 11 by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      If it could actually 'think' then we wouldn't be having this discussion -- but it is 100% incapable of 'thinking', never will be, therefore it's easily manipulated.

    29. Re:Film at 11 by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Just because humans can be visually fooled sometimes doesn't mean we should turn over our lives to half-assed machines that are actually worse than we are.

    30. Re:Film at 11 by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      The current poor excuse for 'AI' will never be 'better than humans' because it is fundamentally incapable of anything like 'thinking', it's just following complicated 'decision trees'. We have no idea how 'thinking' actually works therefore we cannot build machines that 'think', which is why it fails like this so badly.

    31. Re:Film at 11 by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      It has to be able to actually 'think' in order to do that, and this type of software is completely incapable of 'thinking', it's just following decision trees based on stored data. We have no idea how 'thinking' in a biological brain actually works, and 'learning algorithms' are insufficient.

    32. Re:Film at 11 by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      In short, not ready for prime time.

    33. Re:Film at 11 by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Ask this guy if he was glad to be in a Tesla when he fell asleep at the wheel:

      Another way to look at it: he fell asleep *because* he was in a Tesla. The problem with Teslas is that they are essentially self driving cars, minus the certification of being so (because such a thing doesn't exist yet). Of course people are going to fall asleep, pull out their laptop, watch a movie, and so on.

      That's the realistic future of self driving cars. There never will be a stamp of "fully autonomous", and the driver will always have ultimate responsibility for the operation of the vehicle. They will however reach a point where the autopilot is so good that diverting your attention from the road will be more safe (statistically) than manual driving today.

    34. Re:Film at 11 by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Love it

      Decapitation is hilarious! Let's all joke about their gruesome death, and as a bonus, think about their grieving family and chuckle.

    35. Re:Film at 11 by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      The current poor excuse for 'AI' will never be 'better than humans' because it is fundamentally incapable of anything like 'thinking', it's just following complicated 'decision trees'. We have no idea how 'thinking' actually works therefore we cannot build machines that 'think', which is why it fails like this so badly.

      I don't think 'you' understand what it 'means' to quote something. Tends to make folks put less stock in your ruminations about AI and the nature of human thought.

    36. Re:Film at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well someone's gonna have to fuck that wife and daughter. Why the fuck not me?

    37. Re:Film at 11 by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Oh shut up, who the hell asked you for writing style advice?

    38. Re:Film at 11 by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I agree, and I think people who use stories like this as "oh look, proof self-driving cars will never work" are wrong. But adversarial examples are an issue that should be solved. I don't think it's a terribly difficult solution though. One of the great things about adversarial examples is that you don't even need more training data to get started, just the output of your own adversarial generator.

    39. Re:Film at 11 by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I think humans give themselves way too much credit for their "thinking" ability. The research suggests what we do is nothing like the logical reasoning most of us assume. Mysterious processes tell us the answer and then, if pressed, we justify it to ourselves.

    40. Re: Film at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Put him on a horse and he's the headless horseman.

    41. Re:Film at 11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to set up a situation like that and see how many drivers follow the dots blindly?

      You mean like this?

    42. Re:Film at 11 by mysidia · · Score: 1

      It has to be able to actually 'think' in order to do that, and this type of software is completely incapable of 'thinking',

      No... It doesn't have to "think" to do that, nor would I expect a computer to "think" in the same sense as human thinking.
      I would simply expect the vehicle to detect the path of oncoming traffic, and take any necessary correction to not enter that path in spite of confusing road markings.
      It just means a more-nuanced "decision tree" as you call it.

    43. Re:Film at 11 by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's not surprising.

      However, the problem is that humans do not notice those stickers etc. Anyone can see a modified speed limit sign (yes, officer, the sign said 140km/h instead of the more usual 110km/h, I can show you the recording of my dashcam or we can go and look), but you need special equipment (one that works exactly like the autopilot of Tesla) to know that the road was altered enough to trip up the Tesla. Of course, the self-driving cars from another manufacturer would not operate exactly the same and would probably ignore the Tesla-specific stickers, but be tripped up by another set of stickers.

    44. Re:Film at 11 by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      If I see a sped limit sign that says 400, I'm going to assume it's 40, but someone painted another zero on it. Especially if the road looks like "40" should be the correct speed.

      I guess the machine learning algorithms do not do sanity checks:
      1.Hey, look, a set of wheels followed by another set of wheels with a gap in etween. I can go right trough there. Oh, this was an 18 wheeler and the height was too low.
      2.This seems like the correct direction. Oh wait this was the lane divider.
      3.Looks like there are road works and my lane is redirected to the oncoming lane. OK. Oops, it seems there were cars driving on the oncoming lane.

      Humans can make these mistakes too (not so sure about the first one though), but mostly if they are drunk, high or stupid.

    45. Re:Film at 11 by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Road construction sites, at least where I live, do not just have a single line diverting the traffic to an oncoming lane. They have multiple signs ahead of the construction, then right in front of the construction on your lane (if you didn't divert, you would run into a sign or possibly multiple signs).

      The single line, on the other hand, may remain after the road construction is done and all signs are removed. They do not scrape the temporary lines from the road.

    46. Re:Film at 11 by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Where I live, during road construction, a yellow line is painted to show how you should drive (go to an oncoming lane etc) and a whole bunch of signs get placed on the "normal" lane you are not supposed to drive on, like a fence. So, by trying not to hit the signs, you will drive correctly, the yellow line is just a guide. There are also signs 1-2km before the construction zone, warning you of the construction ahead.

      When the road construction ends, the signs are removed, but the yellow line remains for a while (they do not scrape or wash it off). It seems that Tesla would follow the yellow line anyway and go to the oncoming lane when it is not supposed to.

    47. Re:Film at 11 by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Love it

      Decapitation is hilarious! Let's all joke about their gruesome death, and as a bonus, think about their grieving family and chuckle.

      Maybe you could use that stick up your ass to renogginize the guy?

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    48. Re:Film at 11 by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      My lord. Stop spouting this crap. A human does not get fooled into thinking stickers are lane markers.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    49. Re:Film at 11 by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      If it isn't a terribly difficult solution, how did it make it though the original design?? Seriously, they have these things in the hands of customers, every easy solution should be thought of by now. The answer is that it is not as easy as you might think; they now need to teach their AI the concept of perspective or someone else will just think of a new way to do the stickers that defeats the rules they have in place now and it will keep happening.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    50. Re:Film at 11 by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      A more nuanced decision tree that understands perspective.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    51. Re:Film at 11 by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Clear. Accurate. Concise. Non-hysterical.

      This is one of the few comments I have seen that deserve +6 yet doesn't say anything mind blowing. Well done kind sir.

      Well done indeed.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    52. Re:Film at 11 by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Maybe you could use that stick up your ass to renogginize the guy?

      Lol. Because having empathy about the death of other humans is having a stick up your ass now. I'm fairly comfortable with my opinion on this, but thanks for the commentary.

    53. Re:Film at 11 by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Oh shut up, who the hell asked you for writing style advice?

      There are writing styles, but your superfluous usage of quotes is just incorrect.

    54. Re:Film at 11 by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Not getting laid can really turn a person inside out. Think back to this post when you sitting alone Saturday night looking at pr0n. It might give you a clue how you got there.

    55. Re:Film at 11 by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      This stuff is all very new. People know about adversarial attacks, but they don't necessarily train against them. The Tesla autopilot in particular is very specifically a driver aid, it's not supposed to be foolproof, and isn't subject to any of the rigorous engineering requirements that a non-supervised system would be.

      Training against adversarial attacks doesn't mean training against a particular set of stickers or whatever. It involves hardening the whole system to attacks, like this one, that involve subtle, almost undetectable, alterations to the input.

    56. Re:Film at 11 by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You're kind of a disagreeable human, hey? Or maybe a chatbot that's been listening to Reddit for too long?

    57. Re:Film at 11 by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Basically, yes. Many computer vision systems don't have the background knowledge that we take for granted. There are some interesting papers showing that a lot of the apparent mismatch between human performance and some of these systems can be attributed to background concepts. In one, they designed a game that humans could easily master with no instructions, but their AI system had great difficultly with. It had elements like a pink princess in a pointy hat at the top, and the hero (a blue icon) had to jump up and rescue her. As they removed these stereotypical clues, the human performance degraded, eventually to the level of the AI system. What you describe is along the same lines.

      As for #1, there are lots of videos of trucks hitting overpasses on the Internet. In a few cases people have set up permanent webcams because it happens so often.

    58. Re:Film at 11 by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Being new is not an excuse for being safe. If that was the case, Boeing wouldn't be in deep trouble right now. Why would they give the front two cameras if they're not going to understand the perception of depth that you get from stereoscopic vision? With basic depth perception they could easily tell the difference between lines on a wall and on the road.

      These seem like very basic necessities to driving. For a car that is supposed to have all the hardware for full auto driving, it has worse vision than a lot of people that lose their license for it. Doesn't matter that there is a human in the car, because humans lose attention and it is well known that Tesla's countermeasures don't work.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    59. Re:Film at 11 by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Yea, people can misjudge the height of an overpass by a few cm, that's probably less than 0.5% error. But I do not think that a lot of people tried to drive under an 18 wheeler.

      Asfor the background concepts - yea. People evolved in the real world and the rain can recognize real world objects quite well, usually from any angle (even some of the optical illusions arise from the fact that the brain interprets everything based on the real world and are illusions only because they do not depict the real world).

      Also, since birth, the brain processes petabytes (or more) of data related to how things look and what is "normal" and people, say, have no difficulty recognizing a picture of a cat from a picture of a gun. Even if the gun has a picture of a cat printed on it. On the other hand, an algorithm may decide that all cat pictures have pixels x,y and z that are white, while all gun pictures have pixels a, b and c that are black. And you can change those few pixels to trip up the recognition system while the picture looks exactly the same to a human.

    60. Re:Film at 11 by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      The only permanent 'fix' for them is 'General AI': an actually cognitive, aware, 'awake' AI, that functions entirely like a human mind

      That's where I disagree with you: I think the "mind" of a honeybee (and certainly a rat) would work adequately well.
      Mind you, we are currently at least a decade away from that.

    61. Re:Film at 11 by SirMasterboy · · Score: 1

      Sure, some people will follow the dots blindly. But I bet not ALL people will.

      As for the AI though, ALL the AI will follow the dots because all the AI is the same.

      I don't care if AI is better than the "average" person. It needs to be better than ME before I trust it.

  3. Translation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'Autopilot is not autopilot and should not be relied on.' Self-driving cars will go down in history being as silly as military 'UFOs' from the 1950s.

    1. Re:Translation: by Narcocide · · Score: 0

      The military finally admitted to the UFOs. Do you get any news at all?

    2. Re:Translation: by Sique · · Score: 1

      Autosteering via rails will never be reliable. Scientists have discovered yet another way to derail a train. Railroads will go down in history as silly as mechanical chess players.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    3. Re:Translation: by bobbied · · Score: 2

      The military finally admitted to the UFOs. Do you get any news at all?

      LOL.. Technically maybe, as in "We don't (at this point) know what that was." but not in the sense that aliens have landed. Could have been swamp gas, weather balloons, optical illusions or even a bad acid trip, we don't know, but nobody has any evidence that aliens landed.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    4. Re:Translation: by Narcocide · · Score: 1

      You know very well the remaining unexplained cases were all experimental aircraft. I didn't say anything about aliens.

    5. Re: Translation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The military admitted they could not identify some flying objects? Wow.

    6. Re: Translation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strawmen won't work Tesla shill.

  4. Misleading headline by honestmonkey · · Score: 5, Informative

    They, in fact, did not "steer a Tesla into oncoming traffic", but instead made the software "think" there was a lane line where there was none. The car did go the wrong way (or would have if they'd let it), but there was no traffic. They even said, if there had been cars there, the Tesla likely would have noticed them and not blithely crashed head on.

    --
    Everything you know is wrong, Just forget the words and sing along.
    1. Re:Misleading headline by Shotgun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They even said, if there had been cars there, the Tesla likely would have noticed them and not blithely crashed head on.

      And if the AoA sensor was reading wrong, the pilot likely would have taken control and not let the plane crash. Those "likely" sure are dangerous.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    2. Re:Misleading headline by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

      One does get the impression that people are trying very hard to get us riled up but are running out of ideas to manage it.

    3. Re: Misleading headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hello Mr. Oil Industry

    4. Re:Misleading headline by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      They even said, if there had been cars there, the Tesla likely would have noticed them and not blithely crashed head on.

      Oh, that's nice. So my Tesla will just get duped into crossing over to the wrong side of the road, but will swerve back (in which direction?) when it eventually encounters traffic barreling toward it in what it wrongfully considers to be its lane, while the other cars will be in the process of taking evasive action (in which direction?) due to a car barreling toward them in THEIR lane.

      Yeah, no problem whatsoever.

    5. Re:Misleading headline by bobbied · · Score: 1

      They even said, if there had been cars there, the Tesla likely would have noticed them and not blithely crashed head on.

      And if the AoA sensor was reading wrong, the pilot likely would have taken control and not let the plane crash. Those "likely" sure are dangerous.

      You do know that this issue was a bit more complex than you seem to indicate. Part of the problem with the MAX was the pilots DID intervene, they just didn't understand what was happening and let the aircraft trim itself nose down instead of countering with nose up trim. In short, they *didn't* take control, control of the right thing at least. Both aircraft where 100% flyable, the pilots just had to figure out what was happening and deal with the issue in the time they had. These guys didn't have enough time.

      But it is a cautionary tail for Tesla drivers. You *never* really know when a sensor failure or external conditions will exceed the autopilot's ability to safely drive the car. This means that the driver MUST be paying attention and ready to resume driving at any time. The danger here is that the cognitive delay that naturally happens when you switch from monitoring to manual driving. That delay can translate into a pretty large distance when you are going 70 mph.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    6. Re:Misleading headline by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Well.. I'm not sure that swerving into the oncoming lane is the best option when somebody crosses over into your lane..

      My druthers would be to hit the binders and head for the shoulder and hopefully get the horn sounding... That seems like a better option in general. It may not be the right call all the time, but it seems like the best option in a bad situation.

      Get out of the other car's way, staying on your side of the road, get on the brakes and scrub as much energy off and increase the time before the collision, and see if you can get the other driver's attention. Maybe they will correct in time.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    7. Re:Misleading headline by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      So because technology fails one time we should give up on it?

      Both your example and the one in the article have been addressed at this point. And due to only one or two issues, the technology has been fixed on every model of that vehicle.

      That's the nice thing about technology.

      The second, significant failure in your reasoning is not considering the lives saved with the technology working correctly. While it's not an easy calculation, ignoring the benefit and focusing on the harm can easily lead you to cause more damage if you decide to forego the technology.

      Last, "If the person hadn't decided to drive drunk, they likely wouldn't have caused a crash that killed someone."

      We haven't been able to patch that yet. We have patched the Boeing 737 Max 8 problem along with the Tesla lane-following problem. I would argue that the things we can fix that kill people are far less dangerous than the things we can't (or won't) fix that kill far more people.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    8. Re:Misleading headline by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      Completely agree that's a great approach when we have time to calmly and rationally think it through from the comfort of our armchairs, but in the trenches I'd expect that to break down in somewhat inverse proportion to the amount of reaction time available, experience of the driver, familiarity with the road, etc.

      And that's for human drivers -- when we're debating whether it's ok to have this sort of behavior out of self-driving cars, we need to consider what can be expected to happen when the oncoming traffic is another self-driving car.

    9. Re:Misleading headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fails one time we should give up on it?

      Except it fails every time with a bang.

    10. Re:Misleading headline by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      The problem is you can't correct the planes path by pulling up on the stick. In a Tesla, all you have to do is move the steering wheel.

    11. Re: Misleading headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had invested in oil. But never mind the fact the so-called oil companies diversified many years ago and are now energy companies. You just keep on keeping on with your 70s chants about Big Oil while the smart people laugh at you.

    12. Re:Misleading headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are 100% correct. The title is misleading on purpose I am sure. It should have been...

      Researchers Trick Tesla Autopilot Into Steering Into Oncoming lane

    13. Re: Misleading headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Expecting the driver to 'take over' in the most challenging circumstances after lulling them with hours or days of the vehicle doing it for them. What could possibly go wrong?

    14. Re:Misleading headline by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

      You mean like it wouldn't blithely crash head-on into a concrete divider?

      Ooops.

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    15. Re:Misleading headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They, in fact, did not "steer a Tesla into oncoming traffic", but instead made the software "think" there was a lane line where there was none. The car did go the wrong way (or would have if they'd let it), but there was no traffic. They even said, if there had been cars there, the Tesla likely would have noticed them and not blithely crashed head on.

      That's nice and all, but what about the other driver who is 50 meters away and sees the Tesla swerving all over the road like a drunk driver is at the wheel? Will the other driver panic and potentially cause a crash to avoid the oncoming drunk Tesla auto steering?

    16. Re:Misleading headline by bobbied · · Score: 1

      You do what you practice, in advance or it's anybody's guess what you will do.. I suggest that if you don't have the presence of mind in panic situations that you go out and practice, actually, even if you don't tend to panic, practice. Have somebody randomly declare an emergency and time how long you take to respond correctly. Even mentally walking though these exercises will help prepare you for when it really happens.

      Far too often we run headlong into situations without a plan for when things go wrong. You cannot foresee everything, but failing to plan and practice to make sure your emergency responses are right is just stupid. Do this for things like skidding on slippery roads, panic stops with evasive maneuvering in empty parking lots. Focus on things that increase your chances of getting on the binders faster, but maintaining control. Don't over correct and be smooth. Above all, practice. That way you can know in advance the right thing...

      Think of it as training the neural net between the ears..

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    17. Re:Misleading headline by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Then there were all those cases where the AoA sensor was right and the pilot let the plane drop out of the sky yanking back on their stick with the stall alarm blaring at high volumes as they died.

      Thanks but no thanks. I'll take predictable, programmable, and above all fixable computers over fallible squashy blobs of barely thinking water sacks behind the wheel any day.

      There's a reason the generally excepted error rate for humans is 10% on demand and for a well designed machine it's several orders of magnitude lower. There however is no reason behind the anti machine hysteria.

    18. Re:Misleading headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the TESLA that ran into the firetruck just didn't see the huge red firetruck and crashed into it.
      Got it.

    19. Re:Misleading headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or a firetruck.

    20. Re:Misleading headline by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Also, this can happen on highways with metal lane dividers. More precisely - divert the car to the oncoming lane just before the divider begins and when the Tesla sees an oncoming car, it will have nowhere to go.

  5. True But..... by thereddaikon · · Score: 1

    "The rest of the findings are all based on scenarios in which the physical environment around the vehicle is artificially altered to make the automatic windshield wipers or Autopilot system behave differently, which is not a realistic concern given that a driver can easily override Autopilot at any time by using the steering wheel or brakes and should always be prepared to do so and can manually operate the windshield wiper settings at all times."

    While I agree that it shouldn't be a realistic concern, people are stupid. And there have been a few cases where drivers have relied on autopilot too much and have caused wrecks. I don't think this is Tesla's fault really, people don't understand the different levels of automation although they could probably do a better job of explaining what autopilot does and does not do. The name is appropriate, like real autopilot in an aircraft, the driver has to pay attention and be ready to take control at any time.

    1. Re:True But..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Real airline pilots have tons of training, understand the limits of the systems, and are literally PAID over six figures to do the terribly boring job of monitoring the system. Tesla owners could have zero training, are certainly not privy to the actual system limitations, and are shown tons of marketing indicating the main benefit of autopilot is the ability to NOT pay attention.

      But I can see how they are "basically the same thing".

    2. Re:True But..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see myself buying a Tesla vehicle but I would never touch the autopilot. Basically all its there to do is make drivers complacent. This makes people think it will do it for me and not pay attention to the road and because the tech is no where near ready that's why we are seeing accidents. It's the same thing with several "safety" features that indicate an object is behind or beside your vehicle, They don't always work and when they get some age on them they start to give more and more false positives. That in its self is very nerve racking and will cause people to ignore the warnings or even disable the system because it would cost a fortune to diagnose and repair it. The one thing I do like is the backup cameras, its a definitive I see and know whats there and how to avoid it with out some device trying to think for me. All its doing is extending my vision and that's it.
      The long and short is that most of these so called safety systems that try to think for us and cause more problems than they fix, making people complacent more than they already are. I grew up with vehicles that had seat belts and that's it. We were taught to look and look again before doing any maneuver and use your eyes and ears. I've tried trusting some of these systems like the backup sensors (too many false positives) but the only one I do trust is the camera.

  6. Lidar hacking would be worse by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    Because Tesla uses purely optical cameras, these hacks are visible to human eye, once it has been pointed out, or during accident investigation. Lidar based navigation, if hacked using similar techniques, would not be visible. You would need special lidar forensic equipment to even know the lidar has been fooled.

    Human drivers too would be affected if someone adds fake lane marking. I remember a prankster was arrested for rearranging the traffic cones in a construction zone to create two colliding lanes. There is so much more mayhem that can happen, people might remove stop signs, drop stuff from overpasses, or scatter nails or tacks on the high way....

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Lidar hacking would be worse by dromgodis · · Score: 3, Funny
    2. Re:Lidar hacking would be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is so much more mayhem that can happen, people might remove stop signs, drop stuff from overpasses, or scatter nails or tacks on the high way....

      Indeed, peer reviewers should reject research when it's easy to do better than the article's claim. What's next, "a neural-network to multiply 5-digit numbers in 10ms"?

    3. Re:Lidar hacking would be worse by foxalopex · · Score: 1

      Lidar hacking would actually be more difficult because it's a scanning laser system. They're not used for identifying lane markers but 3D physical objects. You'd almost need something like a holographic plate to trick a Lidar system which isn't going to be that easy to stick to the road and even then it'd basically at best be tricking Lidar to either believe there's a hole or lump in the road that's not there.

    4. Re:Lidar hacking would be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is so much more mayhem that can happen, people might remove stop signs, drop stuff from overpasses, or scatter nails or tacks on the high way....

      business as usual.
      you say might but it does happen already.

  7. My research indicates... by bravehamster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I found that it's super easy to make human drivers crash with a simple $5 laser.

    It's amazing how many of our systems only work with the underlying assumption that we're not actively trying to murder each other at any given moment.

    --
    ---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
    1. Re:My research indicates... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This.

      Arstechnica is an anti Tesla shril (presumably Conde Nast gets lots of advertising dollars from "old" car manufacturers.

    2. Re:My research indicates... by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 0

      I found that it's super easy to make human drivers crash with a simple $5 laser.

      Assuming you're not confessing to a crime, your speculative analogy is a poor one for several reasons, not the least of which is that in order to accurately and consistently distract the human driver with a laser, you're going to have to be sitting there pointing it at them rather than pasting some stickers on the pavement in the dead of night and being nowhere close when something bad happens. People's inclination toward malice/pranks/etc. tends to be inversely proportional to the odds of being caught/punished.

    3. Re:My research indicates... by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      How about dropping a couple of big chunks of concrete on the road, in the dead of night ? When you throw them from a pick-up truck, that's easier than getting out, and carefully applying stickers to the road.

    4. Re:My research indicates... by necro81 · · Score: 2

      It's amazing how many of our systems only work with the underlying assumption that we're not actively trying to murder each other at any given moment.

      Dammit! This is why we can't have nice things.

    5. Re:My research indicates... by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      How about dropping a couple of big chunks of concrete on the road, in the dead of night ? When you throw them from a pick-up truck

      Now you're talking -- that sort of thing would be just as easy for any random person to pull off (because everyone has a pickup truck and is capable of slinging around chunks of concrete big enough to cause cars to swerve around them), would have exactly the same effect on cars and traffic (in that people would of course maintain speed while swerving around them and not return to their own lane afterward), and is just as hard for the average driver to detect and for the average good samaritan to remedy.

    6. Re:My research indicates... by PPH · · Score: 2

      Unless you drop them immediately in front of or on a car, people can see them. In Seattle, dodging potholes and concrete chunks in the roadway is de rigueur.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    7. Re:My research indicates... by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

      Redundant? Really? If that's the best fit you reflexive Tesla apologist mods can find, maybe it's a sign you're trying too hard.

    8. Re:My research indicates... by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 1

      I'm even more amazed that we all place our safety into the hands of total strangers who shouldn't be trusted.

      --
      Greed is the root of all evil.
    9. Re:My research indicates... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well it does not necessarily need to be people acting in bad faith; it's an adversarial attack, aka a pattern intentionally designed to fool the artificial vision by small interferences.

      They do two attacks on the car; one to try and make the car NOT see a lane line that is there, and the other to try to make the car SEE a line that is there.

      The first one largely fails. The car has a very robust lane detection system, so even if you paint over it so it looks wobbly, it detects the lane correctly. It's hard to make the car NOT see a lane short of directly erasing it.

      But on the other hand, it seems it is too eager to recognize a lane. The pattern to make the car recognize a lane that is not there (and thus drive on the wrong lane) is just ... three white dots. You can see the paper and the pattern. It's almost invisible on the photo they put on the paper.

      Now imagine the number of things that could look like three white dots on the floor. Paint that fell from a truck, some leaves or flowers, a couple of dead birds, paper, etc, etc.

      People could find those in real life, crash, and investigators may never be the wiser if somehow the dots were moved, or cleaned after the fact, or just ignored. The dots may be dozens of meters away from the actual crash.

      It doesn't need an actual bad faith actor for it to happen.

  8. Patch Motherfucking Tuedsay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All ready? Patch!

    It's like Telsa pwnage x 10000e2.0000000000000

  9. Engineers by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    Were these engineers contracted out to Boeing to design their MCAS system for the 737max?

    Seriously, the design pattern of a life critical system that makes decisions based on one set of or type of sensor is asinine. Boeing should have had the MCAS's AoA indicator cross checked with velocity, GPS, and engine data. Tesla should have the wiper controls visual sensor crosschecked with a humidifier, and the lane sensor crosschecked with a LIDAR. Isn't this just basic stuff here. I don't consider myself a genius, but this seems fairly obvious.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    1. Re:Engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lane sensor - there is no such sensor - cross checks with LIDAR - LIDAT @ Tesla never objects

    2. Re:Engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, the design pattern of a life critical system that makes decisions based on one set of or type of sensor is asinine. Boeing should have had the MCAS's AoA indicator cross checked with velocity, GPS, and engine data.
      Tesla should have the wiper controls visual sensor crosschecked with a humidifier,

      Why? That sounds overly complicated. Windshield wipers accidentally get flipped on all the time when it isn't raining, and other than an annoying sound I very much doubt anyone was harmed.

      and the lane sensor crosschecked with a LIDAR. Isn't this just basic stuff here.

      It is. That's like saying you should post to slashdot (in a reply to your post to slashdot)
      That's why the test didn't involve traffic, the researchers found the tesla would not drive into incoming traffic this way, because other sensors detect the traffic and it stops.

      I don't consider myself a genius, but this seems fairly obvious.

      I thought "it should do what it is doing" would be obvious too, but you still felt the need to point it out as if it wasn't obvious :P

      But I have to give you props, there are many people who would also miss the obvious, yet still claim to be a genius. IMHO those types can be quite dangerous! It is refreshing to see more reasonable people.
      And i don't mean that sarcastically. Unless you meant it sarcastically, in which case I actually just feel saddened and stupid. I hope you didn't.

  10. Self driving cars will always be dangerous by WCMI92 · · Score: 1

    Computers will never be people. I don't think we WANT them to become that smart. Imagine the moral questions on that.

    --
    Corporatism != Free Market
    1. Re:Self driving cars will always be dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would argue the opposite. Humans are far more accident prone than self-driving cars and the gap will only widen over time. If this is about safety and saving lives, the choice is obvious. Determining liability and how to go about suing each other is secondary to safety.

    2. Re:Self driving cars will always be dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manually driving cars will always be dangerous

      Humans will never be perfect.

    3. Re: Self driving cars will always be dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is little data to pronounce that self driving cars are less error prone. Maybe someday such an assertion will be possible. Not today.

  11. Google Car system better by foxalopex · · Score: 1

    These and other funky glitches are reasons why I wouldn't really want to fully depend on the Tesla system. Google Car on the other hand uses a much larger complement of sensors and a 3D space mapping LIDAR to avoid these issues, unless you're going to go as far as placing a styrofoam lifesized car or panel onto the road which would almost fool real-life drivers as well. Google believes in the concept of making sure the system fully works instead of taking dangerous compromises.

    1. Re: Google Car system better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe so, Tesla / Musk / Rei have set an incredibly low bar.

      However, I would never get into and hate driving near the Google Spy Cars. Everything happening anywhere near and inside the car is recorded, analyzed and stored forever by those evil Google scumbags.

      Tesla will go out of business soon. Their technical failures are of minimal concern. Google is a massive textbook anti-trust violation who will never die and keeps finding news ways to capture, exploit and monetize our privacy.

  12. Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by clawsoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    a driver can easily override Autopilot at any time by using the steering wheel or brakes and should always be prepared to do so

    You're not in control, but you have to be constantly ready to take control. You don't have insight into its mental processes so you never know what it's about to do, but you have to be constantly ready to react to what it just did.

    And people find driving with Autopilot to be less stressful than driving without it? I guess I'm different from most people.

    1. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      And people find driving with Autopilot to be less stressful than driving without it? I guess I'm different from most people.

      Because in most cases the system works fine, and people get complacent.

    2. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      While "autopilot" is engaged, you do have visibility to "what the car sees" on the screen. That tells you what obstacles it sees as well as where it thinks the vehicle lanes are. If they don't seem to make sense to what you see, then it's time to take over.

      Like the "autopilot" in planes, when the cruise control take over, it reduces cognitive load because the driver doesn't need to pay attention to as many things. That translates into less stress and the ability to pay attention for longer.

      If the driver does other things instead, that's really the driver's fault. Though Tesla's marketing isn't really helping on that front, either.

    3. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by apoc.famine · · Score: 2

      While "autopilot" is engaged, you do have visibility to "what the car sees" on the screen. That tells you what obstacles it sees as well as where it thinks the vehicle lanes are. If they don't seem to make sense to what you see, then it's time to take over.

      Like the "autopilot" in planes, when the cruise control take over, it reduces cognitive load because the driver doesn't need to pay attention to as many things. That translates into less stress and the ability to pay attention for longer.

      If the driver does other things instead, that's really the driver's fault. Though Tesla's marketing isn't really helping on that front, either.

      Bumping this up for visibility, because the AC is spot on.

      Everything I've heard from Tesla owners driving moderate to long distances is that it's far less stressful with autopilot. Much less mental fatigue, because there's a lot less you need to do. It's not nothing, but when your car largely stays in its lane, slows for traffic ahead of you, auto-brakes if there's an obstruction, monitors your blind spots, turns on the wipers when it rains, and figures out how far you can go before recharging and suggests convenient charge stations and guides you to them, there's a ton less you need to be thinking about. Watch the road, make sure it's seeing what you're seeing, and it will get you where you want to go.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    4. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find it far more stressful to use adaptive cruise control than it is to use normal cruise control.

      I never *really* know if I'll be slowing up or slowing down soon. I find it very nerve-wracking. Normal cruise control makes perfect sense and I can adapt it as needed.

    5. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well most people who use it juts ignore the "be ready to take control" bit and either space out to pay attention to something else like a book or movie.

    6. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not in control, but you have to be constantly ready to take control. You don't have insight into its mental processes so you never know what it's about to do, but you have to be constantly ready to react to what it just did. And people find driving with Autopilot to be less stressful than driving without it? I guess I'm different from most people.

      My wife's car has an auto follow cruse control. I find driving with it far more relaxing that having to constantly wonder why the idiot in front of me keeps changing speed. Sure I have to make sure the car doesn't run into him, but it never has tried yet. I'm not saying I know steering is the same, but likely it is. When the lanes are crazy looking, you perk up just in case, but mostly you can relax.

    7. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I guess I'm different from most people.

      Probably because you have senseless distrust in electronics. If you're nervous about a computer steering your car, I can't imagine what a wreak you must be on the road with all those other variables you can't control.

    8. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and it's less stressful while running as speed into a parked firetruck.

    9. Re:Like sitting beside a first-time teen driver by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Put me in a room and tell me to push a button when a light comes on and measure the reaction time. If the light comes on every minute or so, my reaction time will be faster than if the light came on every hour, because I would get bored waiting for the light and start thinking or doing other things.

      Watching the car drive itself for an hour and being ready to take over in 1second would be too difficult for me, since I would have got bored and stopped paying attention a long time ago.

      On the other hand, when I have to drive my car manually, I have stuff to do and no not have time to get bored, so my reaction time is faster.

      Driving a car with Autopilot on is like being a driving instructor and the student is a very good driver, but once a month or so decides to drive straight into a lane divider with no warning, so you have to recognize that he is going to do so and that he is not going to stop before the lane divider fast enough so you can take over and stop the car.

  13. People are easy to fool by sjbe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The difference being a human that sees lane markers leading into active oncoming traffic will decide there are shenigans and not follow.

    I guarantee you I can find examples of humans would would be fooled. There are a LOT of humans that are quite easy to mislead and all humans can be mislead sometimes. The only difference is that the tactics that fool a human will usually be different than those that fool a machine but make no mistake that both can be fooled. There are plenty of examples of people very dutifully following the instructions from their GPS into trouble despite it being painfully obvious that the GPS instructions were faulty in some way.

    Your notion that people are harder to fool is not entirely supported by the facts.

    This is not 'a machine can be fooled like a human', it's a reminder that the machine is still a *lot* dumber than a human.

    That depends very much on the human in question. I will be happy to introduce you to some humans I know who should not be permitted to drive on public roads. I'm pretty sure you know some like this as well. Not all humans are "smarter" than machines for driving purposes even today. Your average human almost certainly is a better driver than the current state of the art machine but some machines have already surpassed some humans and they are getting better all the time while human drivers aren't.

    1. Re:People are easy to fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I'm sure you can, idiots will always exist, but I bet you can't find anything that will systemically cause human drivers to.

    2. Re:People are easy to fool by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      Yes, I'm sure you can, idiots will always exist, but I bet you can't find anything that will systemically cause human drivers to

      Accidents caused by idiot drivers are still accidents, and harder to fix.

    3. Re:People are easy to fool by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of examples of people very dutifully following the instructions from their GPS into trouble despite it being painfully obvious that the GPS instructions were faulty in some way.

      Really? That could never happen!

      But seriously, I completely agree. It takes very little to confuse, fool, or distract a human. There is nothing surprising about being able to do that, nor should there be something surprising about being able to do the same to a machine with sensory input. The difference is that you can reprogram the machine to not do that next time. Humans are surprisingly resistant to learning not to do dumb shit, and all it takes is a night with no sleep or a bit of trauma in their lives, and humans tend to become a mess at doing lots of things they formerly did well.

      And it doesn't even require that! Humans have brain malfunctions all the time. We are amazingly bad at driving. I continue to be amazed at how people can get into accidents at stop lights in broad daylight. For another great example, (and some laughs) go find some pictures on the internet of people driving vehicles too tall under things which are too short. Dumptrucks with the beds raised. Excavators with the arms up being pulled on a trailer. Tractor trailers driven under very clearly marked low bridges getting their tops ripped off. Rental trucks stuck in drive-thrus.

      Your average human almost certainly is a better driver than the current state of the art machine but some machines have already surpassed some humans and they are getting better all the time while human drivers aren't.

      Human drivers also have a bell-curve in terms of ability with age. And 10 years from now a 16 year old driver is going to be just as bad as a 16 year old driver now. Self-driving software will have decades or centuries of additional experience at that point, and possibly more. One thing that's important to recognize is that humans learn in series, while software can learn in massive parallel. And when a human dies, we're not yet able to copy the learning in their brain into the brain of a fresh human to pick up where we left off.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    4. Re:People are easy to fool by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      The difference being a human that sees lane markers leading into active oncoming traffic will decide there are shenigans and not follow.

      I guarantee you I can find examples of humans would would be fooled. There are a LOT of humans that are quite easy to mislead and all humans can be mislead sometimes.

      There are a lot of coyotes who get tricked by misleading road markers, too, and run right into a mountain side.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  14. Workzones with lines all over the place may trigge by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Work zones with lines all over the place may trigger this??

  15. Boeing/Tesla by jbmartin6 · · Score: 0

    Things like this lead me to believe we are many decades away from effective self-driving cars. Just look at the Boeing issues recently, which among other things demonstrated the need for easy human override. I don't see much value in a self-steering car where the driver has to keep watching and correct the autopilot on a moment's notice. That's not a realistic expectation.

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    1. Re:Boeing/Tesla by apoc.famine · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm somewhat amazed that you're almost 100% wrong. Both this and the Boeing have a human override, the Tesla far more so than the plane, for good reason. The plane that crashed had the same issue resolved the day before by following the proper steps to address it. Yes, there was a problem with the plane, but it was solvable by the pilots. The failure the next day was threefold, and not just a technical issue. The malfunctioning instrument wasn't fixed, the pilots weren't notified of the issue or the actions of the pilots the day before, and the pilots didn't go through the checklist of procedures to fix the issue.

      Passenger plane pilots are not expected to grab the yoke and make a hard left turn and do a barrel roll. They're expected to calmly walk through their checklists to diagnose and fix issues with the plane. The pilots who did saved the plane and all the people on it, while the pilots who didn't lost the plane and everyone on it. The failure was both technical and training.

      To this article, I really don't know what you're on about.

      In a statement, Tesla officials said that the vulnerabilities addressed in the report have been fixed via security update in 2017, "followed by another comprehensive security update in 2018, both of which we released before this group reported this research to us."

      So because a minor issue was fixed a year or two ago, you don't think we'll have effective self-driving cars in the near future? To me, that suggests the opposite.

      Technological issues get discovered and fixed, and we move on. The alternate is not advancing as a species. You also ignore the good that the technology likely has done and will do in the future, to focus entirely on the harm it briefly did. That's a really short-sighted position to take.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    2. Re:Boeing/Tesla by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

      I'll grant you I'm not the best communicator. In the Boeing example, I used the word "easy" which gives me a little wiggle room. According to the reports, the MCAS system applies a lot of mechanical pressure to the stick in order to help the pilot counteract a stall. manually overcoming that pressure is something of a challenge. Sure, there was a cut out procedure if the pilots realized in time that the MCAS was behind the issue. That's a problematic "if" as the recent disasters demonstrated. How much time did they spend trying to pull the stick back before realizing there was a different sort of issue? Did they have that time in that situation? What if there was some other system at fault and the pilots wasted time cutting out the MCAS? As for self driving cars, the issue in the article is just one of many already found, and no doubt more lie in the future. My point is, as long as we have to have a human trying to stay alert on the wheel (which was Tesla's response) there is no point he may as well just drive the car. An actual sufficiently trustworthy self-driving setup for cars is a long way away as findings like this illustrate. I doubt people would accept an autonomous car which is only slightly safer than a human driver, it would just take one accident with some kids and the things will get pulled.

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    3. Re:Boeing/Tesla by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      The fact that one group of pilots did it right and the other didn't shows that they had the time. The question is if they had the training. That's looking like a part of the issue. Having a single point of failure and selling instrument failure lights as an upgrade seem to be the largest issue.

      But you're still ignoring the fact that the MCAS likely kept a bunch of planes in the sky before an instrument failure brought a couple down. Pointing to it as some horrible idea that humans should never have done is silly if you're counting both the positives and the negatives of the system. Regardless, it's fixed now. And the first fix for this Tesla non-issue was two years ago.

      I doubt people would accept an autonomous car which is only slightly safer than a human driver, it would just take one accident with some kids and the things will get pulled.

      You know tesla has already sold more than 250,000 cars, right? Every day tens of thousands of people are turning on Autopilot and letting the car drive while they try to stay alert on the wheel.

      I don't get why you think monitoring the car requires the same effort as driving. By all accounts it does not. It allows you to offload a ton of mental effort to the car, and your job boils down to, "is the car doing what it's supposed to?". If the answer is yes, you just sit there and enjoy the scenery.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    4. Re: Boeing/Tesla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So instead of driving I now have to constantly monitor a computer to make sure it's doing what it's supposed to do?

      No thanks, I'd rather have control at all times. That way if it fucks up, it's on me.

    5. Re: Boeing/Tesla by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      So instead of driving I now have to constantly monitor a computer to make sure it's doing what it's supposed to do?

      No thanks, I'd rather have control at all times. That way if it fucks up, it's on me.

      Yes, AC, instead of checking your blind spots, your speed, your lane position, adjusting your cruise control for slower cars in front of you, braking for emergencies, calculating when you need to recharge and finding your way to the most convenient and free charger, turning on your windshield wipers when it rains, adjusting the temperature of your batteries to make them as efficient as possible and a whole lot of other things, you instead have to keep a hand on the wheel and check the nav screen every few seconds.

      That sounds like an onerous task, and totally not worth buying a tesla for. You definitely should keep driving your '84 stick-shift chevy. I'm sure you've got far more control of that, and it's nowhere near as mentally taxing to drive for a couple of hours.

      FFS I don't even have a tesla and I can see the benefits. I get that there are drawbacks, but to claim that the self-driving mode is anything other than a major labor savor is crazy. I'd take that in my current car in a heartbeat.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  16. Self driving is an assassin's wet dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cause of death of the new leader who promised to root out corruption: Automatic driving malfunction.

    Case closed! Nothing more to see! That strange wireless device in the wreckage...quietly vanished!

  17. False Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you read the PDF, you will see that the "researchers" went to great length to hack into the CANBus on the Tesla and deliberately feed it false information to get it to see something that wasn't real.

    As anyone with two brain cells understands, something that is programmed to react deterministically to data input can be made to do whatever one wants by feeding it the right data.

    There really and truly is nothing to see here as this "trickery" required a somewhat monumental engineering effort to pull off.

    1. Re:False Summary by ledow · · Score: 1

      "A separate section of the report showed how the researchersâ"exploiting a now-patched root-privileged access vulnerability in Autopilot ECU (or APE)â"were able to use a game pad to remotely control a car. That vulnerability was fixed in Tesla's 2018.24 firmware release."

      Fact:

      By hacking the web browser in your car, a random third-party can cause your car to steer in any direction the attacker likes using a toy joystick.

      No matter WHAT the theoretical example, that shouldn't even be possible.

      This is not about kids playing Roadrunner... this is about, say, someone wanting to assassinate a Tesla driver and doing so by making them browse a web page on their Tesla (which I'm sure could be as easy as "access our webpage to find the satnav postcode", and then more sophiscated attacks on the browser).

      You browse the wrong website. Then months later, for a laugh, the person in control of the *direction your car travels at 70mph* steers you off the road and kills you.

      What should raise alarm bells is that the two systems - however disparately coded - are WIRED TOGETHER. Sure, this headline from the same article is researchers feeding crafted data, but it's a proof of concept. The underlying security layer violation is the real issue.

      This is *exactly* what people have been designing against for decades, by making it literally impossible. Tesla just threw that all away and tried to pretend they're still secure.

      As an aside, my Ford Sync messed up the other day while I was driving. Turned out I had filesystem corruption on the microSD that it reads MP3s off. The whole entertainment system went funny, rebooted, froze, jammed, etc. constantly until I diagnosed and resolved the issue. However, all driving functions were 100% unaffected. The only things that were affeceted were music, satnav and aircon (which did shutdown, crash and go do-lally too).

      Now these guys have just proven that the steering, the guidance, the cameras, etc. are accessible on the same security level as the web browser in the car. In any similar example (which in my case was as simple as a dodgy SD card) with a Tesla... that could easily kill you.

      In a maliciously-targeted attack, it could also do so without almost no trace whatsoever.

      These guys didn't go bridging the CANBus to the web browser, they didn't go soldering on new connectors, they used what was there and exploited a vulnerability in the web browser to steer the damn car without any driver interaction.

      If that doesn't say "deathtrap" to you, I don't think you understand the situation and have been believing too much Musk-preaching and headlines.

  18. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    The sooner self-driving cars are outlawed the better. Deploy it.

  19. Sure by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    A plastic bag over a stop-sign should work too and it would get the non-Tesla drivers as well.
    Also continuing the middle line into the abyss and hiding the original line that goes around.
    Putting a fake stop-sign on the middle of the highway should be fun too.

    No need to be a 'researcher' for stuff like that.

    1. Re:Sure by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Putting a fake stop-sign on the middle of the highway should be fun too.

      Or painting a fake tunnel on a rock.

    2. Re:Sure by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      Putting a fake stop-sign on the middle of the highway should be fun too.

      Or painting a fake tunnel on a rock.

      The great thing about painted tunnels is that birds can go through them but predators cannot.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    3. Re:Sure by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      The great thing about painted tunnels is that birds can go through them but predators cannot

      Provided you use ACME paint, of course.

    4. Re:Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about predatory birds?

    5. Re:Sure by Nkwe · · Score: 1

      A plastic bag over a stop-sign should work too and it would get the non-Tesla drivers as well.

      Would it? I suspect it could trip up a bad driver, but any decent driver should be able handle the situation safely.

      When I approach an uncontrolled intersection (one without a traffic light or a stop sign / other signage) I look for cross traffic and be prepared to stop. Part of my evaluation as to if an intersection is uncontrolled or not is to look at both the signage intended for me AND the signage intended for the cross traffic. If I don't have a stop sign and the cross traffic doesn't have a stop sign, then the intersection is uncontrolled and I have be prepared to follow the rules for an uncontrolled intersection (which here means be prepared to stop; first at the intersection has a right of way; in the case of a tie the person on the right has priority.)

      If I were to note that there was a plastic bag over a sign where a stop sign would typically be, I would either think "construction" or "prank" - and I would look around for other indications of construction to evaluate this. Either way I would be considering if I need to treat the intersection specially or as uncontrolled.

      Of course if I am driving on a major arterial where there is not likely to be a stop sign (traffic lights would be expected), I am not looking for covered up stop signs and I am not examining the signage for minor cross streets and driveways, but I am looking for vehicles approaching from the side that don't appear to be stopping.

      I assume that good drivers think and drive this way. I get that bad drivers may not pay attention and or follow this thought process and that bad drivers tend to be the cause of accidents. The question I have is if the Tesla system (or any automated driving system for that matter) is sophisticated enough to perform this level of "thought" in a weird situation such as a plastic bag over a stop sign. I suspect that the answer is "no" and that would put such systems in the "bad driver" category in my opinion.

  20. Too much faith there, buddy by Bobrick · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "...not a realistic concern given that a driver can easily override Autopilot at any time by using the steering wheel or brakes and should always be prepared to do so and can manually..."

    Oh yeah, I'm sure the majority of people can be trusted to remain ready at all times to take over the system called "Autopilot"... Most would assume they can just fall asleep and the thing will magically drive itself. People are dumb, crash reports at 11.

  21. A bad street sign is all it takes by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Yes, I'm sure you can, idiots will always exist, but I bet you can't find anything that will systemically cause human drivers to.

    Want to bet? All it takes is a badly labeled street sign in the right place and most humans will be fooled at least once. Naturally the failure modes for humans are different from machines but we have 40,000 deaths from auto accidents each year that prove that humans aren't especially safe or reliable drivers.

    Furthermore you are aware that software can be upgraded, right? Every machine can learn from the errors of every other machine. You can make a machine less idiotic - humans not so much. When Tesla or some other auto maker finds a bug it is quite possible to push the fix out to every car and completely eliminate that error mode going forward. Humans do nearly so easily learn from the mistakes other drivers. Some in fact are quite obstinate about not changing. See the resistance by many to wearing seat belts.

    1. Re:A bad street sign is all it takes by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      I'd rather deal with accidents caused by humans than the horror and tragedy of humans being killed because some machine fucked up and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it from happening -- then there's nobody to even blame because a machine did it, you can't even point at a person and say "it's their fault".

    2. Re:A bad street sign is all it takes by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      I'd rather deal with accidents caused by humans than the horror and tragedy of humans being killed because some machine fucked up and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it from happening -- then there's nobody to even blame because a machine did it, you can't even point at a person and say "it's their fault".

      The only thing that matters if the number of lives saved. If self driving cars don't achieve significant gains in that area it'll be a non-starter and you will never have to experience that "horror".

      As for the state of the art, there's no question. It's the driver's responsibility, whether the car was on autopilot or not. Autopilot is an assist only. The driver is expected to remain alert and ready to take over at any moment. So do not worry, you'll have someone to blame, and that'll make the death of a loved one all the more tolerable.

    3. Re:A bad street sign is all it takes by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      I'll never have to 'experience the horror' of dying because of a SDC fuck-up because I'll never set foot in one, ever, or advise anyone else to either for that matter.

    4. Re:A bad street sign is all it takes by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      That is great until someone hacks Tesla or some other car manufacturer and uploads a "modified" firmware to all cars. It would cause much more damage than a simple bomb in a public place.

    5. Re:A bad street sign is all it takes by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      I'll never have to 'experience the horror' of dying because of a SDC fuck-up because I'll never set foot in one, ever, or advise anyone else to either for that matter.

      How's that "going" to protect you now? I suspect the person in the Tesla is going to be the one that comes away "with" the least injuries.

  22. If Tesla was run by someone other than Musk? by LostMyAccount · · Score: 1

    Would stuff like autopilot be considered less controversial?

    I'd guess it would get promoted by the company as something other than quite such an autonomous self-driving platform.

    Volvo (and I'm sure others, I've only been exposed to Volvo's system personally) has what amounts to a nearly self-driving system -- distance sensing cruise, lane centering, you very nearly don't need to "drive" to drive, yet there's not nearly the constant promotion/hostility to their system and other similar ones.

    Even my lowly Subaru has really good optical distance sensing cruise and lane keeping (but not centering) assist and lane departure warnings.

    My old Volvo's radar-based distance sensing cruise actually proved quite useful in a couple of bad snowstorms -- it could see the car in front of me better than I could.

  23. Re: Workzones with lines all over the place may tr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    True, but what idiot keeps autopilot engaged in a work zone? Oh, right. Idiot to he named in future news report. #cantfixstupid

  24. Re:Workzones with lines all over the place may tri by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

    In my state we have a "no cell phone use in work zones" law, and giant signs before all work zones notifying drivers. I'd bet that the same will happen with self-driving cars as they become more popular. And like the no-phones law, most people will obey it, some won't and will get fined, some won't and will get into accidents and fined, and some will get into accidents and injure someone else and get fined and potentially also get jail time.

    --
    Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  25. Human drivers aren't great by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Yes.... But machines are supposed to be BETTER.

    They may be someday. They already are better than some human drivers. There are some people who really should not be allowed to drive and many people drive impaired/distracted with some regularity. Currently your hypothetical average human driver is probably still better than even the best machine driver but the machine's are getting better and human drivers are not. Eventually it seems probable that machine drivers will be safer than most (or all) human drivers. Exactly when that happens is unclear but within my lifetime seems reasonable.

    Before self-driving cars are ready, they must be able to avoid jumping into the same lane as active oncoming traffic while traveling down a road or highway, even if the road markings are confusing or in error.

    Umm, you do know that humans routinely are involved in head on collisions (about 10% of all fatal accidents are head on) and people voluntarily jump into the oncoming traffic lanes all the time for various reasons. Humans are also routinely confused by bad road markings - even good drivers. You seem to be under the delusion that humans do a good job avoiding these problems when the data clearly shows that humans are really quite bad at it to the tune of about 40,000 deaths per year in the US alone.

    1. Re:Human drivers aren't great by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      They may be some day? They should be before the PUBLIC IS USING THEM!

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  26. self-driving with no controls? or taxis? will do w by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    self-driving with no controls? or taxis? will do what in work zones then?

  27. Shouldn't be surprised by DrXym · · Score: 1

    Computers suck at processing analog inputs. It wouldn't be hard to spoof a car with minimal effort especially something a primitive autonomous vehicle. Not that other autonomous vehicles will fair any better. Assuming they ever appear on the roads without drivers (not for a long time), people will make sport of griefing them - gum on sensors, traffic cones on their roofs, boxes laid in front of them, graffiti tags etc. Even without the griefing it won't be surprising if they become so frequently stuck, blocking traffic that suddenly they won't see like a good idea at all.

  28. money will make you happy by fluffythedestroyer · · Score: 1

    I don't think that giving money like the author suggest will make him happy and will fix everything. I think its more of a social, family, real life issue problems than anything else here.

  29. HEY MISS MASH, YOU FLAMING DOUCHE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not artificial intelligence. Humanity would benefit if you drank several CCs of strychnine!

  30. Re:Workzones with lines all over the place may tri by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More likely is they will have an official "'NO AUTOPILOT ZONE" sign with distinctive markings and some RFID that signals the vehicle, which in turn signals that driver that AP is being disengaged. The sign probably isn't even needed.

    From an engineering perspective, that's much more robust than leaving it to chance and hoping either the driver obeys or the software detects it, and much easier than teaching the car to "determine a work zone area in widely-varying, arbitrary contexts"

  31. Doesn't add up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't the same thing be said about teenagers stealing a stop sign? If you actually put stickers in the road to steer a car into oncoming traffic, you are a murderer.

  32. Right-hand drive by Bandraginus · · Score: 1

    The stickers were nearly invisible to drivers, but machine-learning algorithms used by by the Autopilot detected them as a line that indicated the lane was shifting to the left. As a result, Autopilot steered in that direction.

    Hah! Jokes on you, Tencent researchers! I live in Australia.