Toyota Will Share 23,740 Hybrid Vehicle Patents For Free (reuters.com)

An anonymous reader quotes Reuters: Japan's Toyota Motor Corp will offer free access to its hybrid-vehicle patents through 2030, it said on Wednesday, seeking to expand use of the lower-emission technology even as the global industry shifts toward fully electric cars. The pledge by one of the world's biggest automakers to share its closely guarded patents, the second time it has opened up a technology, is aimed at driving industry uptake of hybrids and fending off the challenge of all-battery electric vehicles (EVs).

Toyota said it would grant licenses on nearly 24,000 patents on technologies used in its Prius, the world's first mass-produced "green" car, and offer to supply competitors with components including motors, power converters and batteries used in its lower-emissions vehicles... Toyota's move to unlock its patents underlines its belief that hybrids are an effective alternative to all-battery EVs, given a fuel efficiency roughly double that of gasoline cars, lower cost and that they do not need charging infrastructure. Toyota vehicles account for more than 80 percent of the global hybrid vehicle market. "Toyota has realized that they made a mistake by protecting their hybrid technology for years. This prevented diffusion" said Janet Lewis, head of Asia transportation research at Macquarie Securities.

"Toyota on its own can't get key technology accepted, but if other companies use it, that offers the best chance of expansion," she added.
The article notes statistics from LMC Automotive that hybrid vehicles "account for around 3 percent of all vehicles sold globally, eclipsing the roughly 1.5 percent share of all-battery EVs."

Shigeki Terashi, Executive Vice President of Toyota, said, "we believe that now is the time for cooperation."

Comments

Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, this seems extremely generous. Perhaps a little too generous. What's the catch here?

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[AlanObject]

Most hybrid technology is obsolete. A lot of those patents have to do with things like power switching and control and distributing torque among multiple providers on a drive train. Most of that disappears in an EV vehicle.

So I guess someone figured pitching that IP portfolio to the wind would have greater PR benefit than trying to protect and maintain it.

The car I drive, a Ford Escape Hybrid was succeeded in the Ford product line with an all ICE version of itself. No more Hybrid available. The ICE version ended up getting within 10% of the fuel economy of the Hybrid it replaced and you don't have the battery cost problems.

Although you do get better fuel efficiency with a hybrid it always has been a very marginal and temporary proposition. The only reason they have had the success they have had is because nobody had been willing to do with Musk had done, which was to 1) single-handedly multiply the global production of LiON batteries and 2) invest in improving them for EV use.

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed!

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree too! It reminded me of an IT janitor sharing his videos for free although they are quite obsolete and boring.

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

So I guess someone figured pitching that IP portfolio to the wind would have greater PR benefit than trying to protect and maintain it.

To stay on the safe side, better protect your copyrights than risk losing them.

Re: Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

But ... The content of the "closely guarded patents" is already public, unless they broke the rules by not disclosing enough information for someone "skilled in the art" to actually use it.

So what are they really giving up? Trade secrets related to use of the patents? That wasn't mentioned.

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[twisteddk]

It's not the first time they have done this.... They released the patents for the engine the Auris is using a few years ago too. That was like... at least 10.000 patents as I remember it.

There is a strong incentive to get everyone to use the same technology as themselves, This is an easy way to get the companies not already invested in Hybrid tech, to start a partnership with Toyota, by having them use toyota tech.... Same as when google gives you 200$ worth of free adds... for google sites.

It's a totally viable business model.

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[houstonbofh]

The first benefit is economies of scale. If everyone is using the same type of battery, there will be lots of producers of the batteries then need for their cars, and the cost will be lower. The second benefit is if everyone standardizes on their design, they are now the de-facto market leader. So when they come out with a new thing, everyone adopts that thing. See the item above for why this is good. PR and status. It looks good and defines them as the leader. So if you want a hybrid, do you want a Toyota or someone copying Toyota? Last, they are also agreeing to sell components. This means they get to sell a lot of parts. That helps all the points above, and makes them some money on cars they did not build. Win, WIN! And this means there can be rapid innovation they can use without having to take risks themselves. If someone builds an amazing sport touring car, for example, and they provided the design and parts, how hard do you think it would be to have a new Lexus model?

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anytime a company gives away patent tech, the stuff they are offering is broken, incomplete, or very obsolete. Or trying to take over the market. As for Toyota, my last experience of their lemon has resulted in a total ban of all their brands from my driveway. If the darned Leaf was made by a better company like Mazda or Honda instead of Nissan, and had more range (newer models are getting better), they might see a sale. I'm still holding out with my ICE until where I live has more infrastructure and open payment methods - not just via a dumbphone app for a specific charger.

Re: Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize that Toyota owned a share of Tesla in the beginning? In fact when they sold it it got me thinking what did they see

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

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Re: Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Use a better ascii generator dude.... can't make out what that shit is.

Re: Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[arglebargle_xiv]

It's easy, it's rows of orcs and dragons, and the odd Ancient Dragon and Yeti, lining up in front of staves to kill your character, who seems to have cast Invisibility because I can't see an '@' anywhere.

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[angel'o'sphere]

This is an easy way to get the companies not already invested in Hybrid tech, to start a partnership with Toyota, by having them use toyota tech.
I would assume that a good deal of those patents can be useful in pure EVs, too.

Re:Wow. What will the stock holders going to say?

[skids]

A year or two ago I would have pointed out that depending on your driving patterns, hybrids will get much
more than +10% on fuel in some situations, even though ICEs have improved. And I waould have
said that a plug-in hybrid would be a good option.

Not anymore. My Prius's head gasket was going (350k on it) so I looked around and hands down it was far
too affordable to get a pure EV and never again have to take it in for an oil change, spark plug replacement,
tune-up, or major ICE-related surgery... which accounted for the majority of mechanical issues.

Getting rid of that burden is worth enough to me that I would have bought it without the tax subsidy. Plus I
was willing to pay thousands to get a circuit dug out to the garage in a house I don't even own.

Now I never have to freeze my ass off at a gas pump again.

(Don't get me wrong, I think the level of technology that has allowed us to make ICEs as reliable as they
are is nothing short of amazing... it's just time to admit the technology approaches obsolescence.)

Self interest

[AmiMoJo]

They are doing this to try to prolong the production of hybrid vehicles before everyone moves over to EVs. You can see it in their advertising too, attacking EVs directly with nonsense like "self charging hybrids" (aka fossil burners, the last efficient and most polluting way to generate electricity).

They missed the boat on EVs and now all the patents are divided up between Nissan/Renault, Hyundai/Kia and the Chinese. Europe has some too, mostly around the CCS standard that was invented because it's not CHAdeMO.

It's actually a huge crisis in Japan. Their automotive industry is heavily invested in hybrid tech and needs to pivot hard, but mostly lacks experience and patent portfolios. Also they spent a lot of money on hybrid R&D which looks like it will only be valuable for another decade or two tops so before the bulk of sales are EV.

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

Regular people can at least afford Hybrids, most EVs are out of the average person's reach and increasingly so as the tax breaks and subsidies end.

Re:Self interest

[Nkwe]

Few are buying EVs douche. And those that buy them are regretting the decision.

You are misinformed. But hilarious as always to harass and demean you.

I bought an EV and I am not regretting that decision. I don't know if I am representative or not, but your statement seems to imply that all who purchase EVs regret the decision. Perhaps you are the one who is misinformed.

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

How long have you had the EV?

Few people regret decisions immediately after they make them and a lot of people will rationalize their decisions well after the fact to make up for their poor decision making.

Will you still like your EV in a year? Two? Three? Most people hold on to cars for several years, they aren't like cell phones that people replace every year or two. Which is important to remember, because the battery tech EVs use is the same battery tech cell phones use. Know how your phone's battery life starts to tank after the first year? Guess what's also going to happen to your EV's range... and keep in mind, just like modern phones, you can't just replace the EV's battery. It's also essentially "glued in."

Re:Self interest

[Immerman]

I disagree. Batteries are a huge fraction of the cost of an electric vehicle, and will remain so for the foreseeable future, making them far too expensive for most people to consider. But, reduce the all-electric range from 300 miles to 30, and you can still handle 90% of most people's usage, while reducing the battery cost by 90%. Add in a small high-efficiency 30kW generator (about twice the highway cruising power consumption by an EV), and you eliminate range anxiety, charging inconvenience, etc. That makes EVs practical and affordable for far more people, while potentially reducing greenhouse gas emissions anywhere that coal provides a large fraction of grid power.

That said, that's not how Toyota's hybrid system works,as it still relies on a horribly inefficient variable-power ICE mechanically coupled to the road for the much of its acceleration, which seems to me to largely defeat the point. Still, many of their patents may be applicable to more impressive systems.

Re:Self interest

[TRRosen]

40% growth with new sales records every year hardly represents few people buying EVs.

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

A little over a year ago a guy did a youtube video analyzing the price of the Tesla 3. At the higher price and without counting tax rebates the 5 year total cost of ownership (purchase plus 5 years of maint and fueling, minus resale value) was slightly more than a Honda civic (the poster child economical car). This is backed up by other people that have related, for example, cost of charging one year driving 10,000 miles (ie gasoline $1850/year became electric $450/year). So I think the $35k model with the current $3750 tax rebate is well within reach for anyone who A) can afford any new car, B) have some way to recharge economically and drive less than 200 miles/day, and C) analyze the facts and figures beyond sticker price and first payment amount.

ps, leaf is lower priced at $30k, but less advanced battery means problems fast charging for long trips or emergencies. Tesla will take a hit when their tax credit runs out and others haven't, but I think Tesla is likely to leave them so far behind they collapse, for example Hundai Kona EV.

pps, the maint cost analysis of the 3 was a little funny, because instead of mentioning tires/alignment, it mentioned main costs were windshield wipers and key fob battery replacement.

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

Chevy Volt's hybrid design ate Toyota for lunch. Even Mazda's iPower hybrid function (power accessories off of battery/electric engine rather than ICE) gives a 5+mpg boost to their already fuel-sipping skyactiv engine, giving you a full size car with the fuel consumption of a prius. Toyota is shaking in their boots.

captcha: broiling

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

I’ve had my EV for about a year now. EV’s are so much more responsive. It’s like a precision tool. I have zero regrets and would never go back to gas. I have a full “tank” every morning and never have to waste time stopping at gas stations for my daily commute. A net gain in time I can use for other activities. Thanks to OTA updates, the car gets regular upgrades even a year after purchase. What gas cars on the road can you say this about? None. I 3 my EV.

Re: Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, too bad GM cars are pieces of shit. Just like Tesla. You will still be driving your Toyota for 200000 miles. Do not forget the energy costs of building the damn cars.

Re: Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

It does not cost $1850 in gas to run a Honda Civic 10000 miles. My gas guzzler? Yes. The civic getting twice my mileage? Not even close.

If you are going to make a math based argument do the math.

Re:Self interest

[JaredOfEuropa]

Several studies put the useful life of Tesla batteries at around 500k miles, at which point it'll have 80% of its original capacity. There are quite a few Teslas here with 150-300k km on the clock, and the batteries in those cars confirm those numbers. Some are a bit worse: taxi vehicles that are mostly charged on fast chargers which affects battery life, but in general it appears that battery life is hardly going to be an issue. Not before the car racks up the kind of mileage at which regular ICE cars will long be retired.

The few people driving EVs I know all love 'em. And their next cars will also be EVs.

Re:Self interest

[DogDude]

Thanks to OTA updates, the car gets regular upgrades even a year after purchase

I won't buy a car that needs "updates". Anything that needs software updates needs them because it was written badly to begin with.

Re:Self interest

[JaredOfEuropa]

The way things are going with EVs, we're seeing prices come down and range coming up, to the point where these cars become affordable and serve 99% of drivers' needs. You wouldn't get a range extender for that 1% of edge cases, in those cases you'd just rent a long range car.

Removing weight and cost by removing batteries and reducing the range from, say, 500km to 150km, and adding a range extender might make for an interesting business case. In that case the battery range might cover only 80% of your trips, but the range extender would cover the full remaining 20%. The question is: will such a car be around the same price and weight as a full EV one?

Re: Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

This is facts. Why is it modded down?

Hmmmm. Someone has an agenda.

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, I bought a 2012 Chevy Volt and love the car. A far more lux hybrid than a Prius to be sure, great gas mileage when you use gas (rarely, even here in the mountains), about the same as a cheap buzzy econobox, but this is the opposite kind of feel in a car - this one's quiet and fun to drive, as well as having quick response.
The real issue with hybrids is that they cost too much, having two drivetrains in essence....you do get what you pay for - should I decide on a cross country road trip right now, I could just hop in and go, no worries, and no hanging around charge stations - or looking for them.
For my errand loop, which is right around 30 miles (things are far apart here) - it's all battery.
And that's from my solar system - it's never been on the grid.
My lifetime mileage is "only" 161 mpg. My last few years is 253 since I'm no longer breaking in the gasoline engine.
Did I mention great fun to drive? It only gives up .02 g in corners to the 2010 Camaro I traded in...

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

Owning a Volt and having driven one of my employee Prius, you really have that right - it's like comparing a beetle to a rolls. Too bad they cost too much to build and Chevy is dropping them.
Because the Volt is FAR from a piece of junk - mine must have been made on the day all the supervisors were on the line with their jobs on the line too - no other make has beaten it for fit and finish and no squeaks/rattles/noises.

Re: Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

Facts raped Kendall behind the garage. Facts put it in Kendalls ass and made Kendall scream facts. Kendall is now afraid of the facts, surely they will fuck him harder next time.

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

It was great on day one. I would have been happy without OTA. Updates aren't needed but they are a perk that allows the car to stay current and improve even years after purchase. They allow a car manufacturer to fix things without expensive recalls and release new features. How can you say this is a bad thing for consumer or manufacturer?

Re:Self interest

[SoftwareArtist]

Batteries are a huge fraction of the cost of an electric vehicle, and will remain so for the foreseeable future, making them far too expensive for most people to consider.

Not true. Even the pessimists expect EVs to reach price parity in about 5-7 years, and some industry executives expect it to happen much sooner. And that's just the upfront cost. Take into account the lower fuel and maintenance costs for EVs, as well as government incentives, and we already passed the point several years ago where EVs have a lower total cost of ownership in some places.

Re: Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

The honda civic and the 10000 miles were two different, but parallel analysis. Please read more carefully ("other people"). The point being that it costs much less to drive an EV than it does a gasoline car, at or near the average annual driving amount, and many people have made parallel analysis. So just because an EV costs much more to buy, doesn't mean that it's more expensive to own, contrary to the refuted claim that EV's are too expensive for average people. If a model 3 EV isn't affordable for an 'average person', than neither is a honda civic.

Re:Self interest

[jonwil]

Why aren't we seeing more plug-in series hybrids in the style of the Chevrolet Volt? Just build an EV with a smaller battery pack and stick a small ICE powered generator under the hood to charge it when the battery runs out (have no connections between the ICE and the wheels and have the ICE and generator paired so the ICE will run at peak efficiency and use the least fuel possible)

Re:Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

40% growth with new sales records every year hardly represents few people buying EVs.

Percentages only give you a partial picture. You also need absolute numbers to understand how the market is doing. How many EV are sold each year ? If you go from 10 EV to 20EV that's a 100% increase but you're still selling 20 cars total.

Re:Self interest

[AmiMoJo]

At the rate battery prices are falling that won't be true for much longer. It will quickly get to the point where having a complex combustion engine and drivetrain is more expensive to build and maintain, let alone an even more complex hybrid one.

To give an example the Leaf originally came out in 2010 with a 24kWh battery. Now they are releasing the 62kWh model, so more than 2.5x as much range, and it's about the same price accounting for inflation. Nissan are actually not doing so well on the battery manufacturing front either, others are way ahead of them in cost/kWh.

Re: Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

What does a hybrid drivetrain defeat the point of? The point is efficiency, and cost, and hybrids are a good middle ground of high efficiency and not nearly as high cost as an EV. These are all different cars in other ways, I'm just picking these metrics to make a point. Go find other cars if you want, it won't change hybrid's relative position. The savings in fuel economy for any of these take about the whole lifetime of the car to pay for the increased up front cost unless you are looking at some serious miles and high fuel costs. The point of an EV shouldn't be to have an EV at all costs, it has to be other factors.

Ice Corolla $19,500 30 something mpg # the only one anyone actually saves money on...
Hybrid Prius $23,000 50-60mpg
Elec Leaf $30,000 100-120 mpge
Elec+gen Volt $33,500 40-50 mpg on generator, 100ish mpge electric with 53 mile range
Elec Bolt MSRP $36,600 120 mpge

Re: Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the point in spending like $10g more than your employee on a car and bragging about how better it is? We should hope it is, geez, good for you.

Re: Self interest

[Anonymous Coward]

You just said Mazda and full-sized car, I LoLed.

Re:Self interest

[apoc.famine]

Because that's two complicated systems to have issues with, and two inefficient systems because they are both small. Efficiency generally scales with size. Burning gas in a small engine to power a generator is about the least efficient way to generate power. I wouldn't be surprised if a coal power plant is more efficient.

On top of that, the efficiency of such a system is so low that the engine can't make sufficient electricity to run the motors. This means that the engine also needs to have a transmission and turn the wheels, when there's not enough power for the electric motors to do it. That's more complexity and more weight, and it does nothing to make the car more efficient, flexible, or cheaper.

What's wrong with replacing all that crap with some batteries and some electric motors? Unless you're planning a non-stop 5+ hr road trip, EVs already work just fine.

Re:Self interest

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Batteries could beat ICE cars in F segment, ultra high luxury back in 2012.

It took E segment in 2014-2015 time frame. Just luxury level

It is cost effective in TCO metric already for the D segment, 40K - 50 K.

It is on the verge of taking over C segment 25K to 35K. You can expect the bottom to fall out of the ICE car market. Leading to all sorts of non linear effects.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019...

Re:Self interest

[Waccoon]

For the last 20 years, I was wondering if any car manufacturers would start using turbine generators to supplant a small battery. Turbines are terribly inefficient under variable load, but are among the best engines at full load. They're also compact enough so they could be optional, given we already live in a culture where cars are designed to accept multiple engine options. With the proliferation of turbos everywhere, I can't imagine that turbine generators would be anywhere near as expensive as they were decades ago.

Re:Self interest

[angel'o'sphere]

I disagree. Batteries are a huge fraction of the cost of an electric vehicle, and will remain so for the foreseeable future, making them far too expensive for most people to consider.
Yeah, but hardly as expensive as all the fuel you would burn otherwise.

Re:Self interest

[dehachel12]

tesla sold about as many cars as porsche in 2018.

Re:Self interest

[ukoda]

Yes, that is how hybrids should have been done from day one and is the proper way to do a hybrid. Not the over engineered under performing mess that most hybrids are.

The irony is with batteries halving in price every decade the use case for hybrids, even done properly the way you suggest, is rapidly disappearing. They would have merit in the market today but in 5 to 10 years they will be meh! and in 10 to 20 years they will be WTF?

Re:Self interest

[Immerman]

We're not going to get gasoline cars off the streets until the price of a second-hand EV or hybrid with years of life still in it falls below a few thousand dollars. Since batteries are the limiting factor with that, that means very small batteries until such time as battery production increases at least a thousandfold, and prices fall substantially. With current battery technology, I don't think that can happen.

Re:Self interest

[Immerman]

Two problems with that - battery production can't begin to supply all the batteries needed to let everyone buy EV vehicles instead of gas. Doesn't matter what the price is if you can't meet market demand - and the expected result is that the price will remain high.

And then there's the second-hand market. A large percentage of the population can't afford more than $1000 or so for a car. Add in the cost of replacing an old worn-out high-capacity battery... it's going to be really hard getting anywhere near that.

Re:Self interest

[Immerman]

True, at least assuming we can keep the cost of electricity down as demand skyrockets. But that only matters to people who can afford the up-front cost of an EV. And if we're talking the extreme second-hand market, which dominates the vehicle market for the lower classes, that means an EV with a viable range has to be available for a few thousand dollars. If batteries didn't wear out, or could be replaced cheaply, that wouldn't be an issue. That's not the current reality though.

Re:Self interest

[SoftwareArtist]

We'll find out soon enough who's right. Let's check back in five years and compare notes. Here are my predictions.

Battery prices will have continued to fall rapidly. Battery cells will be at or below the $100/kWh level (adjusted for inflation of course).

Worldwide EV sales will have continued to grow rapidly. At least 3x as many EVs will be sold in 2023 as in 2018, probably a lot more.

Sales of EVs will have surpassed sales of hybrids.

Post your own predictions, then put a note in your calendar to post again five years from today and we can see who's right.

Re:Self interest

[parkinglot777]

How about not everyone owns a single home? Where would you be able to charge your plug-in when you are living in a condo or townhouse? Especially when your parking is an assigned spot because you do not own it? Please don't tell me that you can wired the power down from your unit which is a couple stories up. The plug-in system is not for everyone, so it shouldn't be forced to be standard.

Re:Self interest

[Immerman]

The overwhelming problem is that the automobile market is dominated by used cars - and batteries wear out. Even if the price falls to $100/kWh, you're talking $8500 to replace the batteries on a $1000 used car.

Re:Self interest

[SoftwareArtist]

The estimated lifespans for modern EV batteries can be as high as 1 million miles. See the second table under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.... Most EV batteries will outlast the cars they're in. And where are you getting that $1000 figure from? The average sales price of a used car is about $20,000.

Re:Self interest

[Immerman]

I had not realized the lifespan had improved so drastically over the last decade - assuming of course that time proves the estimates valid. I'm dubious, considering the reduction in range that many people have reported with current EVs after only a few years. Notably missing from your cited table is any reference to how large a capacity reduction is considered "still viable" by those estimates. A 50% reduction in something that has only a moderately good range to begin with makes it a far less attractive option, especially to someone who can only afford a single vehicle, and can't afford to rent an alternative when they travel long distances.

Precious few people making minimum wage are going to be spending $20,000 on a car - even $2,000 is a major expense to someone who only makes $10,000 per year, and 25% of the U.S. population makes less than $20,000 per year. Assuming we really want to solve this problem, and we don't just ban gasoline vehicles and say F the poor, we need to be thinking seriously about how well the extreme second-hand market is going to serve them.

"oops"

[Anonymous Coward]

we fucked up by going all-in on hybrids not all-electric. nobody will license these, we'll be forced to abandon them by market moves in the next decade anyway.. lets' just give away this failed tech.

but, fact is.. someone WILL add a petrol-powered generator of some sort to an all-electric.. and it WILL be better, cheaper, and simpler than toyota's existing products.

Re:"oops"

[mccalli]

Been one for a while - the BMW i3 Range Extender. The extender is a petrol generator which recharges the battery. Means you get about 80 miles range on pure electricity, 135 miles if you include the generator and then of course you can just go into a garage and fill up the generator to immediately start adding more.

Re:"oops"

[Immerman]

> someone WILL add a petrol-powered generator of some sort to an all-electric
You just described a series hybrid, which is my favorite class of hybrids as well - all the benefits of all-electric for limited-range day-to-day driving, without the high battery-driven price tag, and along with the range and refueling convenience of a gas vehicle for longer trips. And none of the terrible efficiency of the variable-power petrol engines used in normal or parallel-hybrid vehicles (such as Toyota's).

The old automakers trying hard to block Tesla

[Nocturrne]

It is really amazing how much time and money the old automakers are willing to spend to try to interfere with Tesla's success. They should stop screwing around and focus on EVs. The American automakers are even worse - we should not have saved them during the financial crisis. Let natural selection do it's job.

Re: The old automakers trying hard to block Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla success? At asking billions of tax payer dollars and tweeting lies to illegally manipulate the stock price?

Maybe as you say we should have let Musk just use his own money and go out of business.

Fucking fanboi idiots spewing ridiculous childish conspiracy nonsense every time anything even remotely close to Musk comes up.

Toyota nor any other major car maker has anything to fear from a company that makes fewer cars in a year than they do between sneezes run by a childish sociopath.

Re: The old automakers trying hard to block Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

Tesla: ohh we shipped 6700 cars this quarter.

Toyota: you serious bro?

Timing

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlike copyrights, patents actually expire before being retroactively extended. They only last about twenty years. The original Prius was released twenty years ago, so any patents that covered it have already expired (unless they were submarine patents) and any that cover the 2nd gen Prius would be about to expire real soon now. So Toyota has very little to lose here - were talking the last three to five years or so of a patent that has already been in force for a decade and a half.

Absolutely a token measure. But if it gets them some good PR and maybe lets them sell some parts to a partner, it's a win, I guess.

Not the 1st green car

[Anonymous Coward]

The Prius was not the 1st mass produced "green" car. Honda Insight beat it.

Re: Not the 1st green car

[vakuona]

The Prius was not the 1st mass produced "green" car. Honda Insight beat it.

The Prius was a full 2 years before the Insight. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...

100 patents per simple part

[Anonymous Coward]

Theyâ(TM)ve got so many patents to go nowhere ;)
Itâ(TM)s interesting, perhaps, if they were successful, they would have got perhaps only 237 patents.

Toyota has 23,740 patents?

[dk20]

Nothing wrong with the current system when you have almost 24,000 patents on a car?

Do they have a patent on their patent generation system?

Re:Toyota has 23,740 patents?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there even 24000 parts in that fucking car?

Re:Toyota has 23,740 patents?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there even 24000 parts in that fucking car?

They make a lot more hybrids than just the Prius.

Re:Toyota has 23,740 patents?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there even 24000 parts in that fucking car?

You can have a patent on a process, and a patent on a part that executes that process.

Re:Toyota has 23,740 patents?

[hankwang]

Patents are country-specific; a single patentable idea can become 150-ish patents for world-wide coverage. This number could represent as few as 160 unique patentable ideas.

Trucks

[virtig01]

"Everyone" is not moving to EVs. The top 3 selling vehicles in the US are pickup trucks. Will they become EVs? Not any time soon. Hybrids? Likely.

Re:Trucks

[AmiMoJo]

Many EU countries have already set a date for the end of fossil car sales. China is pushing EVs harder than anyone, and is a major market for Japanese cars. It's really only the US that is lagging a bit, but even there the writing is on the wall with electric pick-ups due in the next year or two.

The future isn't hybrid, it's just a stop-gap and as soon as long range EVs creep into the sub $15k market fossil cars won't make economic sense for most people. Considering we have gone from a 250 mile range car cost $80k to under $40k in about 6-7 years, and the rate of change is accelerating, that won't be long.

Re: Trucks

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a reason there was a brexit.

No one wants to be at the whim of a governing body that the people don't elect.

Re: Trucks

[Cmdln Daco]

"Setting a date" is an easy thing for politicians to do. The UK "set a date" for Brexit.

Re:Trucks

[SoftwareArtist]

"Everyone" is not moving to EVs. The top 3 selling vehicles in the US are pickup trucks.

What's the connection? Electric works just as well for pickups as anything else. Lots of electric pickups are due to come out in the next year or two.

Re: Trucks

[Anonymous Coward]

those are not EU wide rules, just many countries within the EU.

What exactly are those April 22 elections for?

Re:Trucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla's pickup should be here maybe late 2021 or early 2022.

Re:Trucks

[Anonymous Coward]

there are many fewer trucks to choose from than there are car models. Thus car sales are spread out much more. The fact that EV's haven't topped trucks yet means nothing. Model Y is going to be a huge change though.

Re: Trucks

[bn-7bc]

Well brexit has not hsppemed yet it might by friday tho

Re:Trucks

[apoc.famine]

as soon as long range EVs creep into the sub $15k market fossil cars won't make economic sense for most people.

The five year TCO of the Model 3 LR is currently about the same as a loaded Toyota Camry. Not only is that damn impressive, I'd put some real money on it coming in lower for the next 5-10 years as well, given all of the things it won't need replaced, and all the maintenance it won't need.

While that's still in the low-to-mid $40k range, Kelly Blue Book says the average price of a new car in the US is $36k.

We're already at the point where EVs are probably making economical sense for almost half of new car buyers. The biggest barriers right now are likely experience with the platform and a Level 2 charger set up at home. That's a $2k requirement if you want to charge a half-empty car overnight. Personally, I'm budgeting for it in the next 2 years, since even with that cost, EVs are just too inexpensive from a TCO standpoint not to shift to.

In 5-10 years, there are going to be a lot of second-generation used EVs selling for under $20k. That's when the real explosion takes over, I'm guessing.

Re:Trucks

[rtb61]

You of course will not be buying another fossil fueler either. Like you, already own one, still lots of life left in it and the longer I wait the cheaper electrics will be but bugger, the much worse the resale becomes, like hopping from one bare foot to the other in hot sand, such is life ;D.

Will my next car be an EV, absolutely, eventually I will have to start doing some trade in evaluations. See how bad the resale is on my fossil fueller compared to how low EV prices are getting, likely for the same model vehicle, Mitsubishi Outlander, the old fossil fueller versus a new electric not the current hybrid though.

And they are working on battery tech

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet they expect to shortly have 50x battery capacity? Maybe they are playing both sides

"According to Nikkei Asian Review, the total amount of battery capacity from the new venture will be 50 times greater than what Toyota now uses for its standard hybrid vehicles. The expectation is that such an expanded capacity will dramatically reduce the per unit cost of the batteries."

I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[Kernel Kurtz]

.....one day. No range issues. No worries about finding plugs or any need to even consider charge levels. No concerns about -35C affecting battery performance in the winter.

About zero percent chance I would buy an EV anytime soon, but hey if you like them have at it. Variety is good.

Still fully expect my next car to be a shiny new ICE powered one regardless. Not much for performance oriented hybrids in my price range. Yet.

Re:I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[thegarbz]

No range issues. No worries about finding plugs or any need to even consider charge levels. No concerns about -35C affecting battery performance in the winter.

You describe how I feel about EVs. No range issues. No worries about petrol stations since I can run an extension chord from literally any place I'm parked at. No concerns about -35C freezing my fuel lines, my car is always ready to go with full charge.

About zero percent chance I would buy an EV anytime soon

One day you'll realise the boogeyman is just a story you were told as a child so you would behave.

Re:I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[Anonymous Coward]

.....one day. No range issues. No worries about finding plugs or any need to even consider charge levels. No concerns about -35C affecting battery performance in the winter.

read up on the Tesla Model 3 performance specs, we're already there.

325 miles range (using legit EPA accounting), 0.3 sec 0-60 mph, super low center of gravity for great handling, auto land keeping and adaptive cruise control, bit of a gimmick but it will (slowly) self drive from its parking spot at the mall and pick you up a the door, best safety rating of any sedan on the road, you recharge every night so start each day will a full tank of electrons so range is not an issue for 95% of your trips and when it is the interstate system is pretty much blanketed with Supercharger stops now if you are in the US, and those will recharge at a range-rate approaching 1000 mph, that will give you 75 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging. Go to the restrooms and grab a cup of coffee and you're good for another few hours of driving.
Over the air software updates are continuously improving the specs, last week alone they increased the range by about 10 miles due to improved tweaks to the controller software.

They cost a bit but long term TCO is significantly lower than ICE due to order of magnitude lower due to several orders of magnitude fewer moving parts and simpler drivetrain and engine control systems, not to mention cheaper to fuel. The forums report people using the Model S as taxis with over 1 million miles of them and only 10% degradation in battery life. The are outselling the Mercs and BMW 3 series ICEs for a reason. Best selling car in Norway, and I hear their winters can be cold, all 8 months of it. Unlike the Leafs and most other EVs the Tesla has a water cooled & heated thermal control system in the battery pack which keeps the range up in the winter and extends the life of the pack in summer, charging, and hard accelerations.

So dismiss all this if you like, but do yourself a favor and take one for a test drive before you sign for your next car. If for nothing else than the fun of experiencing supercar levels of torque from a standing start.

Re:I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[Kernel Kurtz]

No worries about petrol stations since I can run an extension chord from literally any place I'm parked at.

Haha. That will scale well.

Back when I drove a plow I had a huge collection of extension cords from people who thought the same. No EVs in those days, just dumb people with block heaters.

Re:I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[AmiMoJo]

I would never buy another fossil car. Doesn't start in -35C either, when the EV is just fine and nicely pre-heated from my phone.

Too much hassle filling it up all the time, and looking for gas stations when electricity is absolutely everywhere. Why go out of my way when I can just charge at the destination if I need to? No standing around in the cold pumping gas for long cold minutes either, I can go to the bathroom or dine in comfort while it's charging.

Noisy, smelly, it doesn't get a full tank of gas every morning and the gas itself is really expensive. Plus I enjoy blowing slow ICE cars away as they strain and grind to get moving.

Also my remote off-grid cabin in the mountains only has solar panels. I tried caching gas up there but a bear pissed in the can.

Re:I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[apoc.famine]

Also my remote off-grid cabin in the mountains only has solar panels. I tried caching gas up there but a bear pissed in the can.

That makes me wonder how many years until a natural disaster strikes and the only cars driving around a week later are EVs from households who have invested in solar.

It's kind-of stunning to realize that if you're a real doomsday prepper or other fend-for-myself sort of person that an EV and some solar panels would give you total freedom of your own transportation. The Tesla X with a trailer hitch and a trailer with a pop-up solar panel and inverter, and at the worst you're stuck somewhere for a few days for the weather to clear. At best, all the gas stations can be gone three years ago, and you can still drive on whatever roads still exist.

The GPS and self-driving might not be as good in that situation, however.

Re: I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[Anonymous Coward]

I want a plug-in hybrid. Some days, I could drive without the ICE kicking on between nightly charges. But if I have to drive from Houston to Dallas, well, the ICE has got my back once the battery depletes.

Re:I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[Kernel Kurtz]

Also my remote off-grid cabin in the mountains only has solar panels.

You are totally the first person I think of when I envision the typical consumer.

Re:I would absolutely buy a hybrid

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to be missing the fact that most solar installations are grid tied, and thus will shut down once the power grid goes out. Sure some 'emergency re-wiring' could take place but most will be left unused.

The number of panels required to effectively charge an EV would be somewhat unpractical to use in a drive/setup and charge cycle.

In a doomsday situation, the 'best fuel' will likely be diesel (or some other heating oil/veggie oil equivalent). You could also run alcohol or wood gas... if you can find a motor with a carb.

Patent misunderstanding here

[bagofbeans]

Toyota Will Share 23,740 Hybrid Vehicle Patents For Free

closely guarded patents

For "share", surely it's actually "license for free", like IÂC.

But "closely guarded" is nonsense. Patents are published for goodness sake.

That's not quite right

[SuperKendall]

They missed the boat on EVs

That's not really true though, what is happening is that the boat they are on, is hydrogen fuel cells for EV.

That is taking a long time to come to fruition, so I agree they want to see people using hybrid vehicles for a while yet to prolong the time until the market switches to full EV - so they can get more hydrogen station in place.

If that transition works they will actually be in better shape as hydrogen cell EV's in use are a lot more like cars people are used to. You can fill up essentially instantly instead of sitting for supercharger times waiting for a top-off. In order for every car to be electric, it has to be the case that a good number of them are hydrogen powered...

Re:That's not quite right

[AmiMoJo]

Hydrogen cars will never be mass market. They need a huge amount of infrastructure putting in, the fuel is still expensive and difficult to produce cleanly, and they aren't as convenient or cheap to run as EVs.

Re:That's not quite right

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Hydrogen is a scam run by the oil companies. It's their ace in the hole. Most hydrogen is derived from fossil fuels, natural gas reforming.

Means what?

[Anubis IV]

Toyota's move to unlock its patents underlines its belief that hybrids are an effective alternative to all-battery EVs, given a fuel efficiency roughly double that of gasoline cars, lower cost and that they do not need charging infrastructure.

Sounds to me like it underlines their belief that hybrids have no place in a future made almost entirely of EVs, so they've done the math and realized that there's no sense in clinging to patents that don't have a future. Better to cash in now by giving the patents away and making some money on the component/part purchases they'll receive during the shrinking window in which those patents remain relevant.

Re: Means what?

[Anonymous Coward]

You read that sentence totally wrong. And whoever modded you up are idiots who read it wrong as well. They are talking about hybrids at the end, not EVs.

Re: Means what?

[Anubis IV]

You read that sentence totally wrong. And whoever modded you up are idiots who read it wrong as well. They are talking about hybrids at the end, not EVs.

I read that sentence exactly the same way you did: as referring to hybrids, not EVs. What of it? Despite agreeing with you on the interpretation of that phrase, I stand by everything I said and I don't know how or why you would have jumped to the incorrect conclusion you did. After all, the interpretation of that clause has no material impact on anything I said in the first place.

Re:Means what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess Telsa thinks that EVs have no place in a automobile future then https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

Re:Means what?

[Anubis IV]

It's almost as if you're unaware that two entities might do the same thing for very different reasons. In some ways, their two problems are polar opposites of each other's, yet opening their portfolios made sense in both cases.

Toyota's problem was that they were sitting on technology and tooling that had an increasingly bleak outlook. Rather than clinging to it pointlessly as it brings in less and less profit, they opted to open it up so that they could increase profits before the window passes them by. Doing so may even stretch out the length of time before those parts become obsolete, thus helping them maximize profits even more. It was a smart business move.

Tesla's problem was that they were sitting on technology that had an increasingly bright outlook, but they lacked the ability to capitalize on it effectively due to their small stature within the industry. Their first-mover advantage afforded them an ever-shrinking window in which to establish themselves as a major player before significant competition arrived, so they opted to open up their patents in order to spur the sort of growth that would establish them while that opportunity was still around. That meant sacrificing short-term profits in exchange for spurring long-term growth. It was a smart business move.

Re: What EV boat?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no market for electric boats.

Or did you metaphorically mean the sinking ship that is Tesla? That boat? The sociopathic CEO Tesla? The kept alive with tax payer money Tesla? The lied to zillions of customers multiple times Tesla? The violate SEC regulations Tesla? The higher market cap than Ford (a real company) but produce a tiny fraction of the cars as Ford Tesla? The drug addicted sleeps on the tent factory floor CEO Tesla? The running out of queued up pre-order suckers Tesla?

That boat?

Patents expiring soon anyway

[Kohath]

The Prius came out in Japan in 1997. Patents last for 20 years. The value of these patents is in steep decline already.

Re:Patents expiring soon anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

"Expiring soon"? Wouldn't it be already expired then?

Re:Patents expiring soon anyway

[Kohath]

There are thousands of them. They don't all expire on the same day.

Re:Patents expiring soon anyway

[SlaveToTheGrind]

The summary says Toyota is offering free access through 2030, so I suspect a material part of the portfolio extends past that. It's not like there has been zero technological advancement since the first Prius.

Re:Patents expiring soon anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

You can already freely access them on the USPTO website. All patents are free to access in the United States from the date they publish.

I think what is meant here is that they can be used without obtaining an explicit license from Toyota.

Re:Patents expiring soon anyway

[parkinglot777]

Here is the link to all the patents listed to assignee 'Toyota'. There are 29,770 patents, and there are many that are granted not that long ago (10 million number). Here is another link that are specified with the word 'hybrid' in the patent title. There are 792 patents. Similarly, there are many patents that are granted not long ago too.

Re:Patents expiring soon anyway

[Kohath]

But you would have to guess that many valuable hybrid patents have expired or will expire soon.

Desperation

[DrXym]

Toyota are seeing electric vehicles eat into their market so they are doing everything they can to sow confusion and doubt and generally delay the inevitable. Recent examples would be their foray into hydrogen powered vehicles and marketing their hybrids as "self charging" - a bullshit weasel term that applies to every car including combustion ones.

I expect this announcement on patents is part of that strategy. The irony is that Toyota used to be ahead of the curve but they sat on their ass for too long and now are actively opposing the change that they helped pioneer.

Re: Desperation

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for contributing to the conversation!

Hydrogen fuel cells

[DogDude]

Actually, it wasn't so much hybrids that Toyota bet on, but hydrogen fuel cells. They're a super good idea, maybe better than batteries, but it looks like batteries have the inertia.

Re:Hydrogen fuel cells

[Anonymous Coward]

Hydrogen fuelcells are stupid. We know the capability of hydrogen, there is little room for improvement and it needs lots of room to be used in a car. Additionally, it's more dangerous than fuel and it world require a massive infrastructure and lots of energy to produce/distribute (dangerous transports). Only good thing about hydrogen is that the emission that come out of a car is clean, but with current methods it's not viable to produce (neither for the environment or moneywise). Also with hydrogen we would just switch one controlled substance for another, while electricity can be produced by anyone.

Batteries increase in capacity every year and make much more sense in most future cars.

That's fantastic!

[Anonymous Coward]

80% capacity after 500K miles? Sounds great! Now, if they can just get past those sticky issues of Tesla's crashing and burning, maybe they could last long enough to get to that 500K miles...

It also wouldn't hurt to add a manually actuated emergency brake and manual door opening levers for those times when the electronics and/or software goes wrong. Just sayin'...

Re:That's fantastic!

[JaredOfEuropa]

Now, if they can just get past those sticky issues of Tesla's crashing

It also wouldn't hurt to add a manually actuated emergency brake and manual door opening levers for those times when the electronics and/or software goes wrong [zerohedge.com]

Issues which have bugger all to do with the fact that it's an EV. Also, you should seriously consider to find better sources than Zerohedge. As for the burning Teslas, that's only a handful.

Many cars are retired because of expensive issues related to the (petrol) engine or drive train. Though there are some other issues common to both types of cars: rust, suspension issues, broken climate control, or electric gremlins that are hard to catch and expensive to fix. And some parts are unique to EVs, such as the drive battery which should last a long long time. There's the battery conditioning stuff (heater/cooler) that could be a magnet for trouble, as well as the charger and drive circuits. The motors themselves generally aren't that expensive to replace. Hard to say what will give out first, as there aren't many older high milage EVs on the road yet. But perhaps EVs will actually last longer.

Re:That's fantastic!

[Anonymous Coward]

Zerohedge is a much more reliable source of information than Russiagate mainstream fake news sources. I am proud to use Zerohedge as my source and have no intention of changing that, thank you very much...

The low to virtually no maintenance of an EV is something that really excites me about them, but the present safety issues prevent me from jumping in on buying one. Fix those issues please, Tesla. I'm a software engineer by trade, and I KNOW not to trust software/electronics as heavily as the current crop of Teslatta do.

Re:That's fantastic!

[angel'o'sphere]

Unless there is a construction problem, electric engines last basically for ever. I could however imagine that in a car you need lubrication for the bearings and thats it.

Are there even ...

[PPH]

... 23,740 parts in a Prius?

The catch? Possibly patents expiring soon?

[drnb]

Wow. What will the stock holders going to say? Wow, this seems extremely generous. Perhaps a little too generous. What's the catch here?

Perhaps the stockholders are likely to say "good job at getting marketing value out of expiring or otherwise obsolete patents"?

The Prius launched 22 years ago. Some patents are likely older than that. Patents only last 20 years.

Besides expiration we also have patents that have been worked around via a different approach to a problem, patents covering a now obsolete approach, etc. The "marketing value" of sharing these patents may very well be greater than "commercial value" of the patent itself.

Re:The catch? Possibly patents expiring soon?

[parkinglot777]

Why guessing when you can do a quick check on the USPTO site?

Here is the link to all the patents listed that 'assigned to Toyota'. There are 29,770 patents, and there are many that are granted not that long ago (10 million number). Here is another link that are specified with the word 'hybrid' in the patent title. There are 792 patents. Similarly, there are many patents that are granted not long ago too.

Re:The catch? Possibly patents expiring soon?

[drnb]

Again, patents also lose their value through non-infringing workarounds and the underlying technology (hybrids in this case, overshadowed by new EVs) loosing market appeal.

These, and aging, have likely devalued many of their patents. Again, we are likely seeing a PR move, one that gets the greater value from these patents.

Many hybrid owners wish they could afford Tesla

[drnb]

Few are buying EVs ...

Yes, because manufacturing cannot keep up with demand so the EV market can get away with only shipping higher end luxury vehicles. Most of my hybrid owning friends have expressed the sentiment that they wish they could afford a Tesla.

Getting update different from "needing" update

[drnb]

Thanks to OTA updates, the car gets regular upgrades even a year after purchase I won't buy a car that needs "updates". Anything that needs software updates needs them because it was written badly to begin with.

Getting updates and "needing" updates are two very different things. As for the current software in your car, it is probably not better written than EV vehicle software, you merely are stuck with what you have and can't get an update. Or you only get an upgrade when the severity of the problem reaches the "recall" level. Small problem fixes or product improvements not available to you, but are available to the EV owners whose system were built to be more easily updated.

hybrids over EV

[harvey the nerd]

As long as Toyota maximizes its ICE engine efficiency, hybrids can beat EVs on overall system efficiency. In the Arctic EV will suck anyway (battery performance AND passenger heating) and hybrids have great range today.

Re:hybrids over EV

[Anonymous Coward]

If ICE cars are so good compared to EV's in the arctic areas, why are Tesla's and the Leaf the sales skyrocketing in Norway? Gas in northern regions (Like most other things) is super expensive. I believe Norwegians pay about double the price we pay here in Toronto.

Re:hybrids over EV

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking idiot. Buying an EV in Norway saves you $8000 per year in taxes. That's not operating costs, that is hard, cash subsidy because you bought an EV. Basically in 4 years, Norway will pay the cost of an ICE for you buy an EV. It's not because they are better - it's because they are fucking cheap compared, due to the tax subsidies.

Re: hybrids over EV

[Anonymous Coward]

Or an EV can just keep its batteries warm at all times in colder climates, and keep them cool at all times in hotter climates. Oh wait, Tesla already does both.

Re:hybrids over EV

[harvey the nerd]

Fucking idiot, electricity costs double, triple etc up to $0.50 or $0.75 per kwh in some Arctic areas and fuel is more reasonably priced or taxed. If you learn to speak and eat Norwegian, be my guest.

Re: hybrids over EV

[harvey the nerd]

So even less range with a trickle drain for heat.

wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

long term EV cost is lower due to lack of moving parts, no oil changes, no transmission work, no mufflers, no exhaust, no cats, no head gaskets, no rear main seal, etc etc.

charging is not inconvenient - its at your house.

costs are coming down. 100 $/kwh is the goal, so a 100kwh battery could cost 10 grand, and last 200,000 miles.

superchargers are doing about 115 KW on the model 3, they will be at 250kw soon, which is enough to charge you in less than 1/2 hour. it is not going to be inconvenient for long in a lot of places. also Tesla can make money on the charging - ICE cars do not make a profit on their gas tanks.

range anxiety is a myth for most people.

this also ignores the social cost of air pollution - which causes lung cancer and dementia. (look it up). if those costs were passed to ICE cars they would be super expensive. and if gasoline goes to 4 or 5 $/gal its even worse.

the EV youtubers have proven all of this already - by doing it and recording the evidence.

Re:wrong.

[Immerman]

Long-term cost savings don't matter to someone who can't afford the up-front price. We can't get gas cars off the street until the poor have a viable alternative. And 15+ year old second hand EVs are almost certainly going to need batteries replaced to be a viable option.

Corrections

[SuperKendall]

Hydrogen cars will never be mass market.

They will eventually far overtake traditional battery cars.

They need a huge amount of infrastructure putting in

Incorrect because you can easily convert gas stations, and "recharge" time is minutes like gas today.

VASTLY more difficult is putting in the infrastructure required to support ALL cars being electric. Tesla superchargers work today only because Teslas are somewhat rare compared to other cars. But there are already reports of them getting full. you may have to wait an hour before you are charged up enough to carry on. Not going to work at full scale.

That is why the future is inevitably hydrogen, because if it's not it means a majority go vehicles are still metro cars, and I just can't see that being the long term truth.

the fuel is still expensive and difficult to produce cleanly

Why are you wasting time talking about what is, not what will be in ten years?

they aren't as convenient or cheap to run as EVs.

With a much faster recharge time they are way more convenient than an EV, and eventually hydrogen will be cheap enough the costs will be similar. Even currently that Toyota car I liked to included 15k worth of hydrogen with the car for free, so it's the same price to owners as a supercharger for most Tesla drivers.

Re:Corrections

[AmiMoJo]

You don't need that many superchargers. Most charging will be at home or at work on AC.

Re:Corrections

[bn-7bc]

Onceweget cold fusion up and running at scale we can justbsplit water, I just wonder what we will do with all that extra oxygen hmm

Re:Corrections

[LynnwoodRooster]

So we just shift the cost of the brand new infrastructure to homes and businesses, then. Rather than utilizing the existing infrastructure that is geared around supporting vehicles (gas stations).

Re:Corrections

[Socguy]

Well SK, you may as well run out and buy your Fuel Cell car then. Over the past 10 years auto companies have managed to get a whopping 4800 of them on to the road, (though limited California for some reason.) I mean Tesla is selling that many M3s in a month but they're sure to go bankrupt any time now and I'm sure that nobody else is foolish enough to follow Tesla down that dead end road.

If you're looking for suggestions, the most popular is the Toyota Mirai. It's got a blazing fast 0-60 time of 9.4 seconds, which is 0.1s faster than a Volvo 164 (which blazed into the market in 1969!) It goes up to 310 miles on a single tank of hydrogen which coincidentally is exactly the same distance that the Tesla M3 LR goes but that car uses batteries, YUK!

Because your battery powered H2 car uses hydrogen to recharge it's pack, you get the privilege of laughing at those silly M3 owner who plug their cars in overnight when while they sleep, because every few days before you go to bed you get to drive to a hydrogen pump, and once there, you can fill your empty tank in about 6 minutes for the low, low cost of about $100 USD. (Pro tip: make sure you move next to a high pressure hydrogen pump as the low pressure ones can only fill you half way and that would make your $60,000 car only good for a commute of 75 miles away from said pump...). But hey, that's the price you pay for Hydrogen: Super high energy by weight but crazy low by volume. Anyway, that will change soon with all the new hydrogen infrastructure being installed. So far we've been building them out at the fantastic rate of 2-4 pumps per year nationwide over the past decade and at a cost of (usually) less than $2M per pump to install I'm sure that will accelerate soon.

Re:Corrections

[angel'o'sphere]

You seem to live close to the gas station, and don't mind the smell and the traffic? And you have no trouble to adjust your drive paths according to your gas level?

Re:Corrections

[angel'o'sphere]

I just wonder what we will do with all that extra oxygen hmm
Oh, nothing. Why would we worry? It recombines with H2 in a fuel cell ... to water.

Re:Corrections

[LynnwoodRooster]

I live about 3 blocks from one... In the US the vast majority of roads are NOT major roads, they do not have stores and stations on them, unlike most of urban Europe. And I don't have to adjust my route based upon gas level, as there are literally over 160,000 gas stations in the US. There's one everywhere. Unlike charging stations (which do not exist at my office, and only at a couple places in my town).

Re:Corrections

[thegarbz]

They will eventually far overtake traditional battery cars.

Based on what? The SuperKendall decree?

Incorrect because you can easily convert gas stations, and "recharge" time is minutes like gas today.

No you can't. Safe handling of hydrogen is orders of magnitude different from petrol stations. It would be easier to build entirely new stations than attempt to convert petrol stations for this purpose.

VASTLY more difficult is putting in the infrastructure required to support ALL cars being electric.

What infrastructure? My electric car has never been attached to any infrastructure that isn't available at every single house in the country.

That is why the future is inevitably hydrogen

Because you don't understand infrastructure, EVs, or Hydrogen as demonstrated? Not a good argument man, not a good argument at all.

With a much faster recharge time they are way more convenient than an EV

I don't understand. Why do you need to charge quickly? Are you proposing people go to some kind of a station and actually get out and put something in their vehicles like we did in the bad old days of petrol? Why not just get a car that's always 100% good to go.

Wait ... You're doing long trips right? Are you suggesting you do a 3+ hour trip without taking at least a 20min break for the safety of the driver? You reckless git, why would you put your family and the families of others in danger like that. Just down a bottle of vodka before you get in the car why don't you.

Re:Corrections

[AmiMoJo]

The cost is just adding a socket. It's pretty minimal and quickly pays for itself.

Re:Corrections

[LynnwoodRooster]

No, it's quite a bit more than that. It's a 220V, 50A (or higher) circuit. Talk to an electrician - it's going to run $500+, minimum. And that is if you have the service for it. You want a 20 kW charging system? Hope you have a 200A service - and that it's less than 50% used. Because 20 kW means 100A @ 220V. So you may have to double the panel (and mains) to your home. And everyone's home. For typically $5,000 or more. That's much more than just a socket.

Oh, and you and your neighbors need that too? Well, then the electrical to your small group of 10 homes, all running off of a 200 kVA distribution transformer? Yeah. not going to work. You now need to increase the size of the distribution transformers. Checked the price of for installation of a new 500 kVA distribution transformer? Whoops, there's another $3000 per person. Quite a bit more than "just a socket".

It's far from just a socket, it's an entire infrastructure once you move from "I'm the EV on the block" to "most cars on the block want EVs". And don't even think about parking structures at an office with a few thousand cars - now we need to pull in literally tens of MW of excess capacity - wiring, distribution transformers and more - so that each parking spot is now $10,000 or more.

Just adding a socket? Hardly. And $10,000+ buys a LOT of miles of gasoline for your typical hybrid...

Re:Corrections

[AmiMoJo]

You can charge from 110V, no problem. But yeah, 220V and higher current is nice. I had 240V/32A at home. 50A is excessive, most cars can only pull 32A anyway.

$500 sounds about right for a nice one. Of course companies will get them installed anyway for their own fleet vehicles, and over time the costs will continue to fall and all new buildings will have them.

It's not like upgrading gas stations is free either. How much do you think a hydrogen pump and storage system costs?

Re:Corrections

[LynnwoodRooster]

You completely blew off anyone with a 100A service. And ignored the cost of final distribution transformer limitations for small groups of homes. And wiring up hundreds or thousands of parking spots. Because you cannot admit you didn't think about the impact of taking something that is expensive and rare and beyond what existing infrastructure was designed to support at a big level - and then calculate what it costs to grow it to that big level.

Go ahead, think about the cost of doubling the power capacity of everyone in your neighborhood. Not just the panels. Not just the socket internally. Not just the local distribution transformers. Upgraded main HV lines to carry at least 2X the current (that cable is not cheap - it's about $4/foot in massive quantities). Bigger substations as well. It's the entire infrastructure that gets doubled or tripled in size. And that comes right back on top of the consumer, most of it immediately (panels, dist transformers, internal wiring).

As far as gas station upgrades, it's typically passed on to some of the consumers. When stations upgrade now, they tend to make it out of non-gasoline sales (since most make little to no profit selling gas). There's a reason those candy bars are $1.29, and a car wash is $13 - to pay for infrastructure upgrades. But gas - being a commodity - is still pretty cheap. Same thing will happen when hydrogen is sold at the station - the initial cost will be borne by the business and parceled out so some of the consumers - but not as a surcharge to the fuel itself.

So which is better? Hitting every consumer up-front with all those costs? Or letting a business bear the brunt of the up-front cost and spreading the payments out over multiple years?

Re:Corrections

[ukoda]

How about we come back in 10 years and read you words. Hydrogen was just a stupid distraction to hold off investment in real EVs. Unfortunately that horse has now bolted, why would people piss around with a complicated hydrogen solution when there is a simple solution that works well and is available now?

Re:Corrections

[ukoda]

Yep, just like we shifted from going the video rental store to streaming at home. When I had an EV I smiled every trip home when I passed the gas station realising I would never need to waste time in that queue again.

Re:Corrections

[AmiMoJo]

Have you looked at places like Norway? They seem to be installing that infrastructure without too much hassle. Car parks with charge points in every bay, a bit of smarts to limit the max simultaneous current.

Part of the secret is that a lot of charging happens at night, when utilization is otherwise very low.

Still, I suppose we should feel sorry for those electricity companies faced with having to upgrade their networks just so they can deliver more of their product. Take all that business away from gas stations for the foreseable future surely isn't worth investing in infrastructure upgrades for.

Re:Corrections

[LynnwoodRooster]

Norway has the population of the greater Miami, FL area. It also has massive electricity production thanks to hydro. The US does not. Guess what - solutions for one country don't often translate to another.

As far as charging at night - you and your neighbors are all charging at night. Demand at night just eclipsed that during the day. Oops. And do you REALLY want to have 300A potential draw off of your 200A breaker panel and distribution transformer? On the hope that it won't all be used at the same time? Really?

Pie in the sky mentality. Simplistic, really. No clue what would be needed. And those electric companies are typically utilities paid for by consumers - who would have to fork over the money. But hey, you're rich, you can afford an EV, screw everyone else, right?

Re:Corrections

[AmiMoJo]

So basically the problem is a sub-standard power grid and CEOs who can't see beyond next quarter.

If I were king I'd make sure the consumers didn't pay for it, that's for sure.

Re:Corrections

[LynnwoodRooster]

When Manhattan was laid out (in the mid 1800s), I don't think the foresaw millions of people in vehicles, do you? Should they just wipe out 70% of the buildings so they can widen the roads? Likewise the electric grid - when it was installed, 20 kW per home was an outrageous amount of power, given refrigerators were still pretty new, TV was in its infancy, and there weren't microwaves, hair dryers, computers, etc. A solid 2 kW was a massive amount for a home - 10 lightbulbs and a fridge simultaneously was a big power draw - who would ever use up 20 kW?

But no, don't think of that. Blame your public utility for putting in a substandard grid. They should have KNOWN there would be a need to triple the infrastructure. And they should pay for 100% of anything YOU choose to use. Because it's Never Your Fault, right?

Bottom line: you're flat out wrong. It's not "just a socket". And if you would ever actually admit that, you'd realize the push to EVs for everyone right now is a fallacy - it can't physically happen without trillions of dollars of infrastructure - paid by the utility customers. At least with hydrogen you have individual business who live by servicing cars taking the lead in rolling out the infrastructure, which itself is limited to just their store - not the entire nation.

Re:Corrections

[AmiMoJo]

In the UK we had to save copper by, for example, using ring main in homes. It's not like we went nuts installing extra capacity for the sake of it.

It's a solvable problem, that's the point. Everywhere has challenges, e.g. in the UK we need massive on-street infrastructure projects. Sound countries have started putting that in already. Upgrades were required, of course. But when you consider the long term, i.e. beyond next year's bonus, it's obvious that getting to be the vendor people rely on to run their cars is going to be extremely lucrative for decade after decade after decade.

Re:Corrections

[LynnwoodRooster]

It's a solvable problem, that's the point.

It's a problem that doesn't even have to exist. That's the point. Hydrogen fuel cells eliminate this problem altogether, and solve many others (such as range issues, need for chargers all over, etc). Rewiring your home, adding chargers outside for people who do not have garages, etc. all go away with fuel cells. A 5 minute stop at a filling station any time you need/want it is simple. And you don't have to completely rebuild the infrastructure in your nation.

Re:Corrections

[AmiMoJo]

For all the problems they solve they create new ones, particularly the problem of mass producing hydrogen in a clean and sustainable way. Plus the cars themselves are much more mechanically complex.

Look at LPG. Hardly anyone has it, despite it costing half what petrol does and it being fairly easy to convert existing cars to it. Alternative fuels have been tried and they failed.

Re:Corrections

[LynnwoodRooster]

LPG has less than half the energy density of gasoline, so you don't really gain any cost benefits. Sure, the fuel is half price, but you need twice as much. Hydrogen can be produced if you have electricity and water - both of which are readily available.

So why do you want to force a complete reworking of the entire electrical grid? Why you fascination with spending trillions and forcing people to spend thousands and thousands for something that is not needed?

Re:Corrections

[AmiMoJo]

You only need about 20% more autogas to go a given distance, not double. The energy density is around 50-60% that of petrol, but it's converted more efficiently into motion.

If you think the cost of supporting EVs on the electrical grid is trillions (presumably of dollars) you have no idea. Anyway it doesn't matter what you think, it will happen any the grid will have to cope with it, like it or not.

Many EU countries have already set a date

[Anonymous Coward]

Many EU countries have already set a date for the end of fossil car sales *WHICH WILL BE REPEATEDLY PUSHED BACK*

Not to be out done ...

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

... The National Association of Buggy Whip Manufacturers completely removed membership fees, and has announced a brand new apprentice ship program to train new workers who just have pay the tuition fees.

Re: Wow. What will the stock holders going to say

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not recall any roguelikes that use "8" as monster.

The Prius was introduced in 1997.

[Ihlosi]

Barring any "patent continuation" shenanigans, any patents covering its technology should have expired two years ago at the latest.

Free obsolete technology

[Anonymous Coward]

That should read "Toyota to give royalty-free access to self-charging hybrid-vehicle patents".
I wonder if they're also giving out pet rocks & "Baby on Board" signs?