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Overtime Complaints? China's JD.com Boss Criticizes 'Slackers' (reuters.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the quitting-times dept.

An anonymous reader quotes Reuters: Richard Liu, the founder of Chinese e-commerce giant JD.com Inc, has weighed in on an ongoing debate about the Chinese tech industry's grueling overtime work culture, lamenting that years of growth had increased the number of "slackers" in his firm who are not his "brothers...." Liu, who started the company that would become JD.com in 1998, in the note spoke about how in the firm's earliest days he would set his alarm clock to wake him up every two hours to ensure he could offer his customers 24-hour service -- a step he said was crucial to JD's success...

The '996' work schedule, which refers to a 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. workday, six days a week, has in particular become the target of online debate and protests on some coding platforms, where workers have swapped examples of excessive overtime demands at some firms. Liu said JD did not force its staff to work the "996" or even a "995" overtime schedule. "But every person must have the desire to push oneself to the limit!" he said.
JD disputed reports that the company would be cutting up to 8% of its workforce, but did say "We're getting back to those roots as we seek, develop and reward staff who share the same hunger and values... JD.com is a competitive workplace that rewards initiative and hard work, which is consistent with our entrepreneurial roots."

JD's investors include Walmart and Google.

27 of 180 comments (clear)

  1. China is awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Breathe in that pollution, slaves, and get back to work!

  2. Really! by Mikkeles · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The guy who makes big bucks on the backs of his workers is upset that they want a life. How unexpected!

    --
    Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    1. Re:Really! by Spazmania · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're a hard worker who cares about your work, you will work some overtime. It's inevitable. BUT, if your work routinely can't be completed unless you work overtime then your boss is doing a poor job. He's supposed to hire and retain enough qualified people to do the work and he's suppose to reject work that exceeds his staff's limit.

      That's really hard to do but doing it successfully is why he gets the big bucks. If he's not successful at it, he doesn't deserve the big bucks.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    2. Re: Really! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That caricature exists for a reason. Labor movements in the US lead the country into prosperity. While an individual business owner can benefit in the short term from working his laborers to the bone, the systemically the economy suffers because they are too busy working to buy stuff, eventually get sick, their acquired skills go to waste due to death and sickness, and they're a drain on the healthcare system.

    3. Re:Really! by JMJimmy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Since he wants them to put in the same level of work as him, they should receive an equal reward should they not? Somehow I doubt he'll profit share.

    4. Re:Really! by turbidostato · · Score: 2

      "If you're a hard worker who cares about your work, you will work some overtime. It's inevitable."

      I want to think about myself I do care about my work up to the point to be considered a true professional.

      A true professional respect contracts as they are the true mark of a business relationship.

      A contract has two sides.

      I respect the value of both of them.

      That means, among other things, I don't expect even a dime over what I agreed in contract with my employer, and he should not expect even a minute over what I agreed in contract with my employer. It's not that difficult to understand.

    5. Re:Really! by Spazmania · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I couldn't disagree more. Contracts are about what happens when someone fails. You. Your boss. Someone.

      Success means you never had a discussion about what the contract requires because it was never necessary. You were paid what you expected and more in bonuses and benefits. You were assigned work within your abilities you could reasonably complete. You did the work well, focused on the quality of your work product and how it met the companies needs. You were done when the work was done, not when the clock hit five.

      That's success. Clock-watching is failure. No different than non-trivial amounts of overtime is failure.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    6. Re:Really! by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Are you a boss? Do you supervise other employees? If you don't then you don't know. You underestimate the difficulty of work you haven't performed.

      Me, I tried being the boss a couple of times. It's hard! You can't get qualified people when you need them. You're lucky if you can get qualified people before you need them when it's hard to justify the expense. And you can't keep them. They move on when they're ready.

      Hiring a bunch of juniors is a disaster, especially smart juniors. They don't know what they don't know but enough of them together convince themselves that they do. Easy way to lose your seniors is to hire more juniors than the seniors can ride herd on.

      Meanwhile the big boss never wants to hear that he can't do what he wants to do because you can't hire enough staff to make it happen... not even if you pay more because there just aren't enough competent people in the field looking.

      So here's a lesson: don't tell the other guy how easy his job is. You don't know, he knows you don't know and to him you just look like a fool.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    7. Re:Really! by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Informative

      Work smarter not harder applies to managers too. If you lead by staying late all the time, you're doing it wrong.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    8. Re:Really! by St.Creed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People generally fail to understand that one day they might need you, the next you might need them. What comes around, goes around. So I treat my customers with the courtesy they deserve, and flexibility in hours, as long as they reciprocate. In general I try to work hard enough that they can see results, and have no reason to even think I would shortchange them on hours worked. And that means I don't mind crunch time, but when crunch time is done and deadlines have been achieved successfully, they better not give me any crap about coming in late the week after.

      When they start being anally retentive about time and scheduling without any reason except bureaucratic idiocy, I generally feel that the business relationship is no longer on a footing of respect and equality, wrap up my work and leave. It seldom happens because I make my views on this topic quite clear up front.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    9. Re:Really! by cerberusss · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's success. Clock-watching is failure. No different than non-trivial amounts of overtime is failure.

      That's success in a business sense, perhaps. However, I value success in a family sense. When I leave on time, I get to sit down a bit, then cook for my family. They value this greatly. I've had discussions with a manager, where he would say I'm not a team player. When in actuality, I'm a teamplayer just not for the company profit.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
  3. Push this, pal! by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 3

    But every person must have the desire to push oneself to the limit!

    That's great if you are running your own company where you get to enjoy all the fruits of your labour and then some. But for the vast majority of people, work is not a number one priority. This reminds me of one of those dumb-ass corporate slogans that got handed down from management: "Everyone should work and act like an entrepreneur". My answer: sure, then how about paying me like one?

    I want to be challenged and I like pushing myself to my own intellectual limits, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of hours I put in. Because I also like to be home early and pursue my own interests. How about rewarding people for their individual contribution rather than for keeping a seat warm? Oh I know... measuring output would be hard, a punch clock is installed in minutes.

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  4. If he rewards them like he was rewarded... by clawsoon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If he's willing to rewards the employees who work just as hard as he did by making them a billionaire just like him, I'm all for it!

    Wait, what, you're telling me that he's not?? I'm shocked, truly shocked.

    1. Re:If he rewards them like he was rewarded... by WhatHump · · Score: 2

      Many years ago I worked for a family owned, multi-billion dollar business where the great grandson of the founder was the CEO. There was an economic downturn going on at the time, but he was confident the company could perform not just well, but exceptionally. So he asked all his senior executives to come up with a plan to deliver double digit growth in the coming year (I worked closely with one of those executives to crunch the budget numbers). Of course they said it couldn't be done (most companies were forecasting very small gains, if any), but he did not want to hear such talk. He intimidated them until they found a way - through aggressive cuts, extended work hours and accounting tricks - to make it happen. And sure enough, they did it. And the CEO invited them up to his office to celebrate. The executive I worked with was in a good mood that day, until he returned to his office a couple of hours later. Turns out that the CEO decided that rather than invest some of the profits in the business, he took ALL the profits and bought himself a bunch of race horses. And bragged about it in front of all the executives. True story. Always know who you are working for, and put forward the appropriate effort.

      --
      "Could be worse...could be raining." Igor
  5. Screw that ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Liu said JD did not force its staff to work the "996" or even a "995" overtime schedule. "But every person must have the desire to push oneself to the limit!" he said.

    Sorry, and fuck you to all employers who feel the same.

    You are my employer, I have no interest in pushing myself to the limit to make you rich ... especially since you will not once demonstrate any loyalty to me.

    Companies seem to think we're all going to dedicate our lives and energies to them, but they can and will toss us aside as soon as it's convenient.

    Sorry, no. Fuck you. I'll work my contracted number of hours, and little more. I don't work time I'm not being paid for, and I sure as fuck don't prioritize the company over myself.

    Employers need to understand they get only so much of our lives, and the rest they don't get any of.

    It's not my job to 'invest' in my employer, and I definitely am past feeling like I have to put in extra effort so "we" can succeed ... sorry management succeeds, the stock holders succeed, but some how I don't see a fucking thing out of it.

    Which means I'm not busting my balls to make management get their bonuses, when the rest of us aren't even getting raises to cover the cost of living.

  6. Push oneself to the limit, but not over by iTrawl · · Score: 2

    "But every person must have the desire to push oneself to the limit!"

    Some people might want to go one step further and push themselves over the limit, but they put suicide nets on the limit to prevent that.

    --
    "Everybody's naked underneath" -- The Doctor
  7. pitchforks by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    JD's boss: Shut up plebe! Now lift me up in my palanquin.

    That's what the boss is asking for. Not that I'm a fan of the CCP, but sooner or later the CCP is going to do something about it, not after the goodness of the chairman's heart but to prevent a backslash on the high-value-added service industry (that happens to be effing critical for its end goals of economic growth.)

    Even by China's standards, JD's boss sounds like a damned asshole. It takes a lot of effort to stand out like that.

  8. Judging by how it's in Japan... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In Japan, kids rarely get to see their fathers at all. At best, once a week. At worst, he lives in a different apartment close to work, and work is his family. Especially "successful" ones.

    In China, I figure they'd just save the additional step, and sleep, work and eat right at the factory.

    It's the "being a cog in a machine without hierarchy" mindset, that they wrongly associate with communism. (China is not communist. Because if you look it up, the whole point of communism is self-sufficient communes with no central leadership. *Very* overlapping with US libertarianism.)

    1. Re:Judging by how it's in Japan... by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      In Japan, kids rarely get to see their fathers at all. At best, once a week. At worst, he lives in a different apartment close to work, and work is his family. Especially "successful" ones.

      In China, I figure they'd just save the additional step, and sleep, work and eat right at the factory.

      It's the "being a cog in a machine without hierarchy" mindset, that they wrongly associate with communism. (China is not communist. Because if you look it up, the whole point of communism is self-sufficient communes with no central leadership. *Very* overlapping with US libertarianism.)

      This reminds me of a Japanese family that spent a couple years in my city before returning to Japan. They had two daughters. Unless the father was at work, both parents were with them at all times. Always ready to jump and provide whatever their children needed. Always providing supervision, but without denying them anything that they asked for. Loving, devoted parents, dedicated day and night to their daughters' growth and happiness. And they took an interest in chess while they were here, so the parents were stuck hanging out in coffee shops until late at night. Their eyelids would droop, but they would never complain, or fail to jump and find refreshments when needed. They would not get tired and forget to keep their daughters in view. They would not get weary and forget to smile and explain patiently when their daughters had a weird question.

      Japanese people have a strong sense of honor. If you have a type of job that requires it, you might be expected to make huge sacrifices. However, that tells you nothing about the underlying cultural attitudes and what is considered a sacrifice, or what is considered normative.

      If you think Japanese people value being a cog, you're probably an idiot. If you think Japanese culture is relevant to a discussion of the business culture in China, you're definitely an idiot.

      The average Japanese worker works less hours per year than the average American worker. The reason that they "only have one day off per week; if they're lucky" is that they use a different way of measuring the week. Those types of phrases refer to a "normal week," without any national holidays. The western method of measuring is to average all the weeks. So Americans might have a "5 day work week," and Japanese have a "6 day work week," but the Americans have more work days per year because there are only a few holidays, and the Japanese have a huge number of mandatory holidays. They have "a 6 day work week," but there are relatively fewer full weeks.

      When a Japanese father only sees his kids once a week, he's probably trying to get a promotion because he's worried about paying for his kids' college in the future. Same thing as in the US, except here we have more roads so people can suffer a longer commute and sleep in their own bed, but still not see their kids much. Plus, here the parents can just tell the kids to take out loans; the parents don't have to pay just to make sure the kids can get access.

  9. Workaholics by Solandri · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know several people like this guy. In the case of my friends, they're not exploitative - they're incredibly nice people who pay and treat their employees well. They just happen to be very hard-working and dedicated to their jobs. The most successful one runs a multi-million dollar company. He described his workday to me once and he's basically constantly glued to a screen reading up on any new news that may be relevant to his business sector. Even during meals he'll be reading up on something. He typically goes to sleep past midnight, and wakes up around 4:30. His wife tells me that when they're on vacation, she has to constantly pull tablets and the phones out of his hands because he'll try to sneak in some work, rather than enjoy the vacation and time off. (After she confiscates his phone and locks it in the hotel room safe, he tries to steal his kids' phones so he can do more work.)

    Anyhow, people tend to imagine that everyone else is like themselves. And workaholics tend to assume that everyone else could work as hard as they do, not realizing that most of us aren't blessed to be doing jobs that we love enough to want to spend most of our waking moments doing it.

  10. The problem is not slacking by aepervius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is being paid a commensurate salary compared to the time you spend. I am betting he is not offering far more than the average salary for the time he wants to claim from the live of his worker, in other word, his success was paved over the live and money of his worker.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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    visit randi.org
  11. Unions is the answer to this by sinij · · Score: 3, Insightful

    996 is absolutely something that came from Robber-barons era and it boggles my mind that anyone anywhere in 2019 would tolerate this.

    Richard Liu is a profiteering low-life, and probably deserves negative social credit score for this.

  12. I've said it before by Sqreater · · Score: 5, Funny

    What China needs is a communist revolution against the abusive capitalists.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
    1. Re:I've said it before by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

      They had that. Didn't you get the memo? It was an unmitigated disaster. Peasants got more calories while being occupied by the Japanese. I repeat: the Chinese people were better off under a regime whose motto was "Kill all, burn all, loot all" than communism. No joke.

      "We cast aside our three core ideas - Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism - and that was a mistake. We were taught Marxist revolutionary ideas from 1949 to 1978. We spent thirty years on what we now know was a disaster."
      -- Zhu Zhongming, Shanghai accountant

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  13. Globalization by TJHook3r · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When lazy Westerners don't want to work 80 hour weeks, their jobs are going to be snapped up by willing Chinese or Indians. Race to the bottom :(

  14. He could be right and wrong a the same time by melted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been in the industry for 20 years, and I have not yet seen a programmer that can fit more than a few hours of real, actual, focused work in any given day. The rest is just filler like meetings, bullshitting on slack, goofing off on Reddit or something else. I don't think the Chinese are any different. So most (or all) of this insane overtime likely also consists of filler. Under the definition that you have to spend all 8 hours of your workday actually doing work, we're more or less all "slackers".

    Where he's wrong, though, is I can pretty much guarantee you they're less productive with this schedule than they would be with 40 hours a week. What's more, if they worked 40 hours or even less, they'd likely be more creative as well, and less resentful towards their workplace. Henry Ford established this to be true even for assembly line work a hundred years ago, and this is considerably more complicated and requires orders of magnitude more creativity than assembly line work.

  15. Re:Yeah, no. Only true for small businesses. by St.Creed · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My old boss used to say "if you work overtime, your planning was bad and it's your own damn fault. I never asked you to work overtime, I just asked for a realistic planning." It certainly taught me to plan better.

    --
    Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)