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Windows Refund Day update
We've been locked out of the offices that Microsoft promised would be open today. Rick Moen: says... Its been a huge success... the message has been heard everywhere... there were TONS of reporters... from Chris DiBona: it was disappointed but unsuprised that the elevators to the 9th floor where Microsoft resides... were disabled. He was seen later telling reporters that if this one piece of the license was bogus, then the whole thing was worthless and that this means that people should feel free to copy and distribute Microsoft products to the world. He also noted that he would not wish this fate on any of his friends.
Wish I was there!
Now we are going to see Linux users advocating software piracy all over the 6 o'clock news. This is supposed to make Microsoft look bad, not us.
This must be the by far coolest (to use that by M$ worn out term) the Open Source community has ever done! (well Linux's pretty nice too I guess:).
But this! What a show. I loove it!
/Patrik Sweden
Sigh..
Look, folks.. if software doesn't have a license, it reverts back under copyright law. This means NO ONE BUT THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR IS ENTITLED TO USE IT.
If EULA is illegal or voided, then NO ONE BUT MICROSOFT can use it until a new license is put into place.
Besides, don't most licenses contain lines stating that the license may be changed without warning?
Magnwa
Maybe they shouldn't have picked a holiday for this thing...
oh, its not like people weren't pirating Win95 up until now. Myself, I wanted to use the new FAT32 features of OSR2, but since I wasn't allowed to buy it (it was only bundled with preinstalled PCs), they didn't leave me with any choice. I guess MS would consider that piracy though.
They should have passed out some pirated Back Street Boys and Spice Girls mp3s for the final touch.
It made it onto CNN's Headline News.. Congrats I guess.
Strangely enough under British law, a contract is void unless the terms and conditions are presented before any money changes hands. Since most software contains the license (aka terms and conditions of use) inside the box virtually all software licenses in the uk are void and once you've bought it it's yours to do what you want with.
It's one of those things that has never and will never be tried in court. The software companies don't want to draw attention to it and it's not worth the expense for the average software user to take the likes of MS to court.
By the way, this doesn't apply to you guys in charge of buying software for a company - if you're making repeat purchases it's assumed you know the terms and conditions already, since you probably opened a box or two along the way. It just applies to the little guys
Down with the wankers who criticize his character for using slashdot as the biggest banner of all in promoting themes.org.
Hey, while you're at it.. why not go visit themes.org?
Blah.
Obviously, suggesting that people give away copies of their Microsoft products is a BAD idea.
Much better ones include jumping on the Lets Sue Microsoft bandwagon (We should have a National Sue Microsoft day) or asking the FTC to investigate Microsoft in conjunction with their OEMs for consumer fraud. A class action suit naming Microsoft and their various OEMs who have refused to honor the EULA should be a slam-dunk as long as Microsoft doesn't use the Chewbacca Defense.
Elevators are controlled by Windows NT. It crashed, elevators don't work. Too bad.
:)
If the license is bogus, you have exactly the same rights as you would with any other copyrighted work. As the owner of the copy of the work you have a lot of rights that the license tries to circumvent (but you may not make copies, altho fair use is still valid).
However, what is more interesting is that if the license is bogus, you arent signing away any right to sue the pants off them for lost or destroyed work through the malfunction of their worthless products, and you are entitled to ordinary consumer rights, such as an expected usefulness of the product, etc.
You cannot change a license without warning. The original license remains in place. Despite some license writers wetdreams, there is such a thing as contract law.
just take the stairs.
so why should they start now?
It's from a South Park episode starring Johnny Cochrane..really a classic piece of courtroom humor.
WATCH South Park more often. One episode deals with Chef suing, then being countersued for someone stealing his old song.
The Chewbacca defense is a cunning tactic used
to confuse the jury...
Hey!... MAYBE that's what they're [MS] is doing in Washington D.C. w/ the DOJ....
...Things that make you go hmmmmmm......
a south park reference where a record company hires johnny cochran to sue chef for plagarizing a song. johnny used the chewbacca defense (which had nothing to do with his case) to distract attention away from the matter at hand. watch south park to see.
...given the nature (and first name) of our current President.
Looks like M$ has raised the drawbridge, so to speak. Better storm the stairs to get your money back..
In Febuary, there are several dead presidents (of the U.S.) have birthdays, significantly President Washingtion (as in General, and the first U.S. president) and Abraham Lincoln (16th President, freed the slaves and was Pres. during the Civil War). So rather than have a Washington Day and a Lincoln Day they get amalgamated into Presidents' Day. A celebration of the office, not of the occupant. :)
(insert appropriate cigar joke here)
Let's see.. I must pay for some software I won't use from some company in some other country when I want to buy a PC from any major vendor? get real! No way in hell I'll even spend a penny on MS software even if that means going to the mac 1st. Thank god vendors here pirate the stuff they put on their systems so you don't have to pay for lame software you won't ever use.
-Unix/Linux user since 1976
If you've had a problem being locked out go to this site (Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Complaint Form). Good luck
Mr. Gates, tear down that wall!
it's the cold war all over again and MS is the evil empire
They are losing their anti-trust case, no I take that back. They are getting their collective butts kicked by the government in grand fashion. (Rich Grey of GMSV and SJMercury said that the last time the US Government inflicted this much pain on somebody there were blown up Iraqi tanks scattered about...)
They are losing hype to linux, the new darling of the media and IT world. These are rare times that a high quality product has the media support, I'm loving it. I'm so used to crap being pushed by ZD et al.
A bunch of geeks want their money back because they are using linux. Doesn't matter what their purpose or cause it, an army of geeks is scarry. I'd lock the doors and bust out the
Sun is winning the java suit, MS is pulling their java plug and betting on some new 'COOL' technology. Funniest thing is there is an internal war over COOL. (Start from scratch or "fix up C++" (the fools just don't get it, do thay?)) Java's not a winner but MS is doing their damndest to make it look like one.
Win2000 isn't going to be ready. Most slashdoters probably won't agree with me but x (as in ten) is looking very killer, I could really get used to a linux and macosx world. I'd love to see linux and apple replacing NT.
They don't have a 64bit OS and Intel seems to be dropping the ball with the Piii enough that merced might start to look interesting. Probably not, but I'm not sure what the hell intel is thinking releasing the piii, it's like they are pulling an MS or something. AMD must be scaring the heck out of them. Back to MS: It hasn't started yet but the 64bit talk will begin before too long and this puts MS in an interesting position because over the last 8 years they've been able to say "NT is the future, we've got it waiting for when you're ready" but MS will be behind the times in popular opinion in the 64bit world. All the lemmings know is that 64bits is twice as many as 32bits.
Heck, NBC isn't even the top rated network anymore.. It looks like they are getting ready to kill some of those Thursday shows that used to be so popular.
Just wait to they start to feel it in the stock, that's when the pressure will really get turned up... Their developers are going to be jumping ship like it was the titanic.
In the Foster city one, the elevators worked, they would just not stop on the 9th floor. When people went to the 10th and 8th floors, they found the stairs locked. Later the elevators were locked down completely.
After 20:00 pst, check out the sheet handed out.
Are you surprised that MiKKrosoft lied? These people lie under oath for gods sake!
It gets better: when I booted my Dell laptop, the first thing that came up was a screen that said, in part, ``Type 'Y' to indicate that you have read all of the software licenses and agree to their terms.''
h tm
However, according to http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/licensing/matrix.
Windows 98 OEM (which came preloaded on the aforementioned laptop) does not come with a paper copy of the EULA.
Nope, rethink that.
I payed MS money for the software. Either they were ripping me off by selling me something worthless (illegial in most states), or they were selling me ownership of windows (I wish!), or they were giving me the right to use it.
This has Class Action Lawsuit written all over it.
Is there a lawyer out there willing to file one on
behalf of those wanting a refund?
> In this way, Microsoft is stamping out
> competition in the OS market. For this they
> should be punished.
Ideally, perhaps, but by law it's only when they
leverage the monopoly in one area into another.
I.E., IE leveraged on top of their OS.
Big deal. So MS locked their doors for a day to keep the rebel kids from doing something stupid. Like anything is going to happen from this little party. Msoft is still laughing. You need to do something that has some impact. Not a one day linux party/seige...
give me a break kiddies
more later- I need to reboot my win machine again
"
Dear Valued Customer,
Microsoft welcomes you to its local sales office today. We are always available to answer any questions you might have about Microsoft products and technologies.
[...]
Fundamentally, you, the consumer, have a choice of operating systems and PCs. You can purchase a PC with a non-Microsoft operating system or a PC with no operating system preinstalled at all. In fact, more than 200,000 PC makers worldwide will allow you to choose which exact components you want on your PC, from processor to video card to operating system software. According to the LINUX.ORG Web site, more than 60 OEMs in 14 countries offer PCs with LINUX preinstalled. The choice is yours, and we hope that you, like millions of other customers around the world have done, choose Microsoft operating system products to run your PC and enhance your computing experience"
[...]
So, I bite. Anyone care to guess where this "200,000 PC makers" figure came from?
--- eli@prometheus-music.com
I'd like to buy a laptop with no OS installed please. Can you point me in the right direction?
Before replying, please note that I don't want
something where the VAR I'm buying it from has
paid the MS tax and removed the OS, but I want
something virgin that has never had an OS before,
and nobody has paid the tax on it.
If you can find said laptop manufacturer, there are plenty of people who would like to have a word with you, since nobody at the Refund Day could think of one. Even VAResearch basically gets laptops (I think NEC was mentioned) and uninstalls the OS that's on them. The hardware mfr's just won't ship laptops with anything else, period.
There's no fire-marshal requirement that you be able to get ON to a particular floor, only that in an emergency, you have the ability to get OFF that floor.
Driving up very early, the first thing I saw was a sign for "Linux Press Coverage". When I approached the garage to park, the rent a cop asked me if I was there for the Microsoft event, I told him ,no I pointed to the sign and told him I was there for the Linux event. He replied "You mean the Microsoft event". Microsoft tried thier best to stage the event.
After making a march on the parking lot, Microsoft representatives greeted the protestors warmly. Rumor had it they were looking for recruits.
It seems the elevators malfunctioned just when the unwitting Microsft customers wanted to visit the Microsoft office, worse yet the stairs were locked too.
But the protestors were there to prove a point and did, well sort of... We'll see if the EULA is changed, or if unit pricing is abondoned.
PoP
I don't get it..!!?? Shouldn't we be going after OEM instead of MS..??
Microsoft cannot enter a third party into an agreement without their expressed approval.
OEM's are not told, given agreements to sign, or otherwise notified that they are being assigned a contractual obligation by the EULA. In fact, OEM's cannot even SEE the EULA, because it is hidden inside shrink-wrap.
So, the OEM doesn't HAVE a contractual obligation, despite what Microsoft may like to think or write on paper. I know. I used to BE an OEM/VAR. I installed many an installation of DOS/Windows/Etc. with not a single notification that MS wanted me to be responsible for bearing the brunt of the cost. Ya know what? I don't bear the brunt of it. I never, as an OEM, agreed to the EULA, and heck I never even SAW it.
What it really proved today is that the EULA is a completely worthless piece of paper (because the OEM's have not committed to abide by the agreement), which is fine, because now it puts Windows products strictly under copyright law, which allows for "usability of product" cases, etc., which is good for the consumer, since they'll be able to sue for damages when products malfunction, etc.
Yes, the 'contract' says that you must contact the vendor. Been there, done that, and most vendors say that THEY HAVE A CONTRACT WITH MS THAT FORBIDS REFUNDS. The contract is between MS and You, not You and the vendor. When you can't go through the vendor, then you have only once choice. MS is violating their end of the 'contract' plain and simple.
It seems to me that there is a lawsuit in there somewhere. If Microsoft and the vendor are unwilling to give a refund, then there is a breach of contract somewhere.
It is probably illegal for Microsoft to require the vendors to supply refunds unless the vendors signed an agreement saying they would. Since this caught most everyone by surprise, the vendors probably never signed such an agreement.
If the vendors signed such an agreement, then you can sue them. If not, you can sue Microsoft.
If Microsoft and the vendor refuse to honor their own EULA, you could probably make a good case that their EULA's are not valid contracts and you can ignore them.
I'm sure glad I didn't take their job offer, I bet it sucks working for a company that it is taking it like a prison bitch from all sides.
.06 and build a bunker if they were coming after me!
I'm sure they're glad you are too... an illiterate fool such as yourself would be of no use. Can't even spell the word "scary".
They are losing their anti-trust case, no I take that back. They are getting their collective butts kicked by the government in grand fashion. (Rich Grey of GMSV and SJMercury said that the last time the US Government inflicted this much pain on somebody there were blown up Iraqi tanks scattered about...)
I'll agree they're getting ripped on the case. But I'd hardly quote anything from sjmercury as a reliable resource. Owned, and puppeted by KPCB.
They are losing hype to linux, the new darling of the media and IT world. These are rare times that a high quality product has the media support, I'm loving it. I'm so used to crap being pushed by ZD et al.
Blah blah blah... Hype shmype. I'm waiting for the first trokan horse to rip some CTO a new one. Tee hee!!!
A bunch of geeks want their money back because they are using linux. Doesn't matter what their purpose or cause it, an army of geeks is scarry. I'd lock the doors and bust out the
They can simply hide behind the aspect of the EULA that all the lunix morons seem to fail to grasp, that the EULA is an agreement between the distributor of the PC and the end user.
Win2000 isn't going to be ready. Most slashdoters probably won't agree with me but x (as in ten) is looking very killer, I could really get used to a linux and macosx world. I'd love to see linux and apple replacing NT.
HAHAHAHAHAHA... Go over to ars-technica and read the rip... I mean REVIEW of OSUX. SMP scales well, but not above 1 proc. Remote boot one machine, and 30% of the server's time is usurped until the MacPOS on the end has finished booting. No domain model, no shared security (need to have all users replicated across all machines.)
OSX99 = WNT 89(EXCEPT WORSE)!!!
They don't have a 64bit OS and Intel seems to be dropping the ball with the Piii enough that merced might start to look interesting. Probably not, but I'm not sure what the hell intel is thinking releasing the piii, it's like they are pulling an MS or something. AMD must be scaring the heck out of them. Back to MS: It hasn't started yet but the 64bit talk will begin before too long and this puts MS in an interesting position because over the last 8 years they've been able to say "NT is the future, we've got it waiting for when you're ready" but MS will be behind the times in popular opinion in the 64bit world. All the lemmings know is that 64bits is twice as many as 32bits.
Microsoft has repeatedly announced a 64 bit version of NT. Where the hell have YOU been?
I get the feeling that you're another teeny-bopper Lunix luser who doesn't know what the fsck he's talking about. Get a clue.
If there's a fire, I think most folks would be interested in getting to the GROUND floor. And while I'm not absolutely completely positively 100% certain about this, I'd be willing to bet money that the fire marshal would agree with me about this. I'm sure you could continue on down the stairwell to any other floor; it's quite rare that you would actually have to _enter_ the 9th floor in order to escape.
-posting anonymously because I forgot who I am
OK, say that some people on floor 9 passed out in a fire by inhaling smoke. Now, what is helping the firefighters most: an unlocked door or one which they have to kick in first?
;)
(Oh, I forgot. Let those bastards have it!!!
I _knew_ you could.
VAResearch,VAResearch,VAResearch,VAResearch,VARese arch,VAResearch,VAResearch,...
Give me ONE example of a homebuilt PC costing more than a clone (Dell, CPQ, CrapWay) equivalent.
If you can, I can point you to a retailer who is REAMING you on parts.
Even a verbal contracts require a real human being representing the other party to be present when presenting you with any sort of contract. Shrink wrap licenses, just like "click to agree to license" buttons in install apps, are legally meaningless. If you get busted for piracy, it's because legislators passed anti-piracy laws which you broke- it has nothing to do with the EULA. The EULA is a total waste of paper and ink.
Either you work for Microsoft as a Product Evangelist, or the wool has been completely pulled over your blind eyes.
If you bothered to follow the history of people contacting OEMs about getting a refund, you would know that the responses of all of these OEMs have been that their agreement with Microsoft does not allow them to sell their systems with anything BUT a Microsoft operating system on them.
Wake up, dammmit.
hmmmm....
Either you work for Microsoft as a Product Evangelist, or the wool has been completely pulled over your blind eyes.
If you bothered to follow the history of people contacting OEMs about getting a refund, you would know that the responses of all of these OEMs have been that their agreement with Microsoft does not allow them to sell their systems with anything BUT a Microsoft operating system on them.
Wake up, dammmit.
--there is no message here
People don't prefer windoze, they are not aware
that alternatives exist. Why is this? Because
most people buy computers through a large
OEM like Compaq, Dell, etc. Mostly for the
security this offers them in an area they don't
feel completely comfortable in(computers). Now when the distribution channel to the majority of
consumers is totally restricted to one (bad)
choice we have what is known as a monopoly.
Please try to look at the whole picture instead
of making ridiculous statements.
I drive an old piece of crap car as do at least
50% of the population. I certainly don't prefer
this over a Corvette, but your attempt at logic
dictates that Auto manufacturers stop making new
cars. I hope you can see how silly your words are.
Of course I'm sure Bill pays you to spout that
crap.
Well said.
MS will be getting what they deserve,
and there will be no mercy spared.
The big bully is soon gonna get it's *ss kicked.
I've got my brass knuckles ready....
So I sign a contract with party A, and suddenly I've got all these obligations to somebody else who isn't even mentioned? You're an idiot. If I have an agreement with the vendor, then Microsoft can't hassle me for violating my contract with Microsoft, because I don't HAVE a contract with Microsoft.
Get a grip.
Not only did you completely fail to rebut any of HardCase's points, you've also proven to us that you're a reactionary juvenile.
When you can stop yelling "moron," and open your mind, please get back to us.
You're right: They're using the chew-their-own-arm-off defense.
QUIT USING THE FUCKING !=
ITS FUCKING OLD! GET OVER IT!
"Microsoft has repeatedly announced a 64 bit version of NT. Where the hell have YOU been?"
Announced != Delivered.
But what of the people that do IT for a living? I have a hard enough time trying to support 60+ local users, along with things like Spewlett-Bastard printers that jam up at the drop of a hat. There are not enough hours in the day to support a place of this size (not huge), and build the computers. It only takes a half-hour, I know, but I have so many "half-hour" projects to do right now, it would take a couple weeks to do them all, and more keep coming.
Mothers/Fathers: Don't let your kids become Sys Admins.
I have 2 Thinkpads 560. Both are running Linux.
They came with Windows 95. I have tried calling
a few numbers but have not been able to get in
touch with a human. Does anybody have any phone
number or the name of a person to call?
I have already setup a homepage for this effort.
Please visit : http://homestead.dejanews.com/user.atif5 5/index.html
atif55@yahoo.com
Will the 3rd Monday become "Microsoft Refund Day"?
He would say, "Oh Bill, let's do it again!", like other Big Business Republicans of yore, who defended the monopolists.
And you wonder why no one will take you seriously...
This is IMHO the best episode of South Park. I *LOVE* it. Does anybody know where I can download the movie of this episode? I've been searching everywhere and I couldn't find it. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE if you know where to get it, send me an email
eugene@happypenguin.dyn.ez-ip.net
no, KPCB is a VC firm. SJM is owned by Knight-Ridder. You seem rather confused.
That refers to being found unenforcable by a *court*, not to being unacceptable to one of the parties. If I don't accept the EULA, there is no contract. Therefore, neither MS nor the OEM has a right to my money. Nonethelesss, they have my money and are reticent to return it. What they gave me in exchange for the money is this software. If they don't think they owe me money, the only option left is that I purchased the software as an artifact and have all the comon rights of ownership. Of course, I could refuse that too, but that would be the next step of the progression.
That's awesome! So Microsoft herds all their customers to the top garage floor like lemmings? :-)
:-)
Yeah, I was there. It was a bit eerie as Microsoft lead the crowd up several ramps to the top of the garage complex. It reminded me of the game Lemmings. "Ok, now everbody walk off the cliff!"
Do you also work for the same PR firm that was advising the House Managers? Dude this was a PR disaster for Mircosoft no matter how much spin people like you try to put on it. These guys got the kind of press attention that companies and political parties pay MILLIONS OF DOLLARS for little or nothing.
No! To get off topic here, MS is not responsible for anything whether the license stated it or not.
Just because MS software failed to keep the lifts operational does -not- mean that MS software failures can make them accountable.
Remember, all the IT higher ups want somebody to blame if something goes wrong. Thats why they choose MS in the first place. "So they have somebody to blame."
So now we have the big court case thats been in the headlines for about a year now about the Navy suing MS because MS caused a battleship to go dead in the water.... Dohh!!!
You did go to the wrong place. the EULA itself says to go to the place of purchase. I dont think anyone picked up their laptop at MS headquarters did they?
Here are some URLs for major media coverage of the event. Interestingly, no one seems to have mentioned the Microsoft lockout. I suggest making a stink about this. Our story is MS locked us out; theirs is free iced tea. Unfortunately, nothing on CNN today.
o gy/story.html?s=v/ap/19990215/tc/windows_p rotest_3.html
d _279000/279926.stm
AP
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ap/technol
BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsi
The Articles of Confederation were a sham. The first President was the glorious general George Washington. Anybody saying anything else is a commie fuck.
Judge: And how could you decline the EULA without first reading it and knowing the terms?
Defendant: Because I've seen it posted and its always the same.
Judge: And now you know for a fact that it hasn't been changed without even seeing it?
Gallery: He's a witch! Burn him!!!
Judge: How do we tell if he's a witch?
Gallery: He turned me into a newt.
Judge: A newt?
Gallery: Well, I got better.
Judge: Is a witches OS easy to install?
Gallery: No, Its hard to install!
Judge: So how do we tell if he's using a witches OS?
Gallery: Burn him!
Judge: Can he be easily installed?
Gallery: No! Install him on a PDP11! Anything thats hard to install is a witch!!!
Judge: What also is hard to install?
Gallery: Hmmm, Large refrigerators? Car stereos? MS windows?
Arthur: A good credit rating!
Judge: So, if he is as hard to install as a good credit rating, then he's a....
Gallery: A witch. A witch!!! Burn him!!!!!!
Get a fscking clue.
HAH !
... who will compete against it, and how much competition it will face. It also decides when it wants to listen to its customers. Since there's no other game in town, if you don't like it, tough.
I knew it !
When faced with PC users demanding fair treatment, Micro$oft decides to bar the doors.
Does anyone see a pattern here ?
An arrogant monopoly who decides
Maybe the real issue is whether the EULA is really just an elaborate fraud.
Perhaps a class action lawsuit could help determine if this is the case.
Couldn't they climb the stairs? Or were they locked off too?
Well, actually, if it was the fifth floor in flames, I might look for some floor in between. Maybe you MS guys figure a single solution for every problem, (reboot), is cool, but in real life I would like some more alternatives.
We can see how well MS programmers think out their code from your "hazard" thinking here. "Just code it and let it fly, if it works it works"
Why don't we approach the OEM's and ask if we
can approach Microsoft on their behalf for
the refund. Ask them how they plan to get the
refund out of MS and tell them that they have
the support of the consumers.. and we can be
there to watch it.
By all accounts, the over-hyped Refund Day seems to have been a bust. Too few people, too little time (the whole thing lasted less than a couple of hours), and the only thing to have come out of it is that we have branded to have given ourselves a license to pirate software. Talk about bad publicity.
I know the issue is with Microsoft's bullish attitude and tatics with computer vendors, but, there is another market.
Auction.yahaoo.com is free to the seller, and buyer. Windows 98 OEM is selling for about $89.00 to $100.00+. Win 95 OEM about $40.00.
eBay.com charges the seller for the listing, but has a big market and lots of users.
I have been bidding $40.00 for Win 98 OEM and beaten out every time.
Don't you think Microsoft's market research dept. knows about and monitors this secondary market?
I doubt if there is enough OEM copies out in "alternate OS land" to glut the market and drive the price down.
I would really like to see it happen, because I don't intend to pay Bill for more buggy software.
Take advantage of the secondary market and make a better return, than Bill or his partners are willing to pay.
There are even offers of CDR copies on eBay, so the piracy thing is being done, with much lower prices, and fewer takers.
Contact all those corporate ITs and offer to unload the Win 98 OS, which come preloaded only to be discarded for Win NT or Unix. Glut the market and lower the price. That will hurt Bill's feeling. You might even make a profit being a middle man.
Now listen here, my good mate. To answer only your first argument, MS only has 19 billion in ready cash reserves. What if every tin horn, OS alternative wannabe, asks for a refund? What about all the thousands of legitimate requests for a refund?
That would set MS back about close to a hundred thousand dollars! Now where is this poor little rich company going to come up with cash like that? C'mon, we dont ask criminals to pay back their ill gotten booty do we? We just put em in prison. Why should we ask more of a legitimate company like MicroSucks.
Well, Solaris, HP, and Linux all have 64 bit OS's already out there and running. Only MS is playing catchup by screaming that "its coming." I think maybe you just go back to your playground and sit in the sandbox for a while and wonder why you are such an idiot.
Sorry to be so harsh on an MS newbie. MS stooges is sooooo stupid! -- Yosemitie Sam
I work for a one of the aforementioned "vendors" that do not offer refunds. Two weeks ago I alerted my supervisors and advanced services lab to the upcoming refund day. They escalated this problem to the people who negotiate with Microsoft. Microsoft illegally refuses to even give a policy by which the vendors can refund an unused product. The vendors cannot pass those costs onto consumers and the vendors cannot offer refunds for someone else's product. If GM offered a refund for passenger side airbags "bundled" with their cars and told consumers that they could receive refunds from the dealers if the consumers did not use the product, GM would still have to negotiate a refund policy with those dealers.
Microsoft is breaking the law.
>A victory? Sure...a great publicity victory for Microsoft...and a significant step backward for the legitimacy of Linux and open software.
Some people work for a living. =)
Jon
> So, the only thing they can do in this moment
> is to hide in their offices and try level best
> to keep such matters low key
Or maybe they just didn't want a crowd rushing in and catching them faking^H^H^H^H^H^Hproducing another video.
You are a M$ ass kisser. Your words are so pathetic, even worse than Fred Moody's. Are you paid by M$ to write this. Be somebody of your own, not somebody of M$. I suspect you have M$ shares, otherwise what is your problem of getting refunds. We don't agree with M$ EULA, so we want our money back as mentioned in EULA. What is your problem against it?
So if you were on the 10th floor, and there was a fire.. you're supposed to go to the roof?
10th floor -> 9th floor was locked too.
Probably would have been better if the speaker had left it at "This invalidates the EULA," and let people draw their own conclusions.
... just don't need one more password to remember)
I don't see how this makes the Linux community look bad at all.
That's probably 'cause you're an honest guy and don't spend your days devising devious devices to screw people. Don't forget how much money Microsoft spends on lawyers and PR flacks. If they can find a way to make this look bad, they will. Remember, perception is reality!
Matt Gushee
Oshamanbe, Hokkaido
(see, I'm not an anonymous coward
As someone who was ACTUALLY there today for Windows Refund Day, let me just say that I am really saddened to see such ridiculous and completely wrong stuff posted here. Somehow I had always thought that Linux people and especially /. people had a clue. I will not make that mistake again. Cya
But you can still 'transfer' an OEM-license to another computer, that's one of the things the EULA prohibits...
Afaik, M$ claims that an OEM license belongs to the computer, not the user !
Like the real world, there is a cause and effect for everything. The EULA is the effect of some previous cause.
This is according to which law of Thermodynamics?
You make it sound as if the whole thing were the inevitable consequence of bad behaviour by users. Come off it, buddy! Microsoft chose to write a EULA, and to write it the way they did. They chose terms that would give themselves as many rights, and users as few, as they felt they could get away with.
Microsoft chooses to see every customer as a potential enemy. It's an understandable attitude, but by no means the only option -- and I suspect this attitude, much more than the dubious quality of their products, that will destroy Microsoft in the long run (boo-hoo!).
Do I hear someone saying, "That's the way business works. You just can't trust people these days." Uh-huh. Ever heard of L.L. Bean's? Of course you have. And if you've ever bought anything from them, you know they'll take it back if you're not satisfied. Any time. No questions asked. "The customer is always right." It still works, only too many businesses these days don't know it because they get too much expert advice from lawyers and accountants.
So please, spare us your psuedo-scientific analysis. Microsoft does what it does because Bill Gates made it that way.
Matt Gushee
(who would rather be called "Anonymous Coward" than submit to this bureaucratic password nonsense)
Oshamanbe, Hokkaido, Japan
I think that this event CAN be a step in the right direction -- if we keep our heads straight! In attempting to return Win98 to Microsoft, the movement got some press and expressed the desire to NOT use Windows.
... well ... contradictory at best. No further comment necessary, I think.
... Let's do things the RIGHT way and lets give people a good impression of the average Linux user.
Microsoft was within the EULA in denying refund to those who attended; They are not customers of MS, but customers of the OEM. Many of the OEM's have entered into this agreement to purchase a copy of Win98 for EVERY computer they make where they cannot return unpurchased copies, and the return policy needs to be settled with the OEM's.
I think that attempting to return Win98 to Microsoft and then threatening to pirate it, as some have done, is
Another observation -- it's not that we Linux users are short of options when it comes to getting our hands on computers that are NOT packaged with Win98; You can build your own system from components, or you can purchase a machine through one of the many vendors of pre-built linux systems.
What we are asking for here is the support of the MAJOR computer manufacturers; IBM (who has already started in this direction), Micron, Dell, Toshiba, Compaq, etc. I think we should tell THEM (as we are their customers, and not Microsoft customers) that we want to use Linux, but we also have superior confidence in their hardware. We need to give them a _reason_ to provide Linux systems alongside their Windows systems.
That reason needs to be intelligent, insightful power-users rather than underfed, opinionated hacker-pirates -- especially while under the scrutiny of the press. Being known as 'anti-windows' is a poor image; 'pro-linux' would be a more beneficial projection.
In persuing this end, I think the most appropriate route would be to express interest in purchasing a Linux system from a particular manufacturer and convincing them that there are MANY people who would buy such a system, rather than just buying a Windows machine and then hounding the OEM for months.
So people... let's not crucify anyone, let's not take any scalps... (ok its a recurring dream of mine to see a Bill scalp hanging on Linus' living room wall, but that's just a personal fetish, take no notice)
k?
Why don't each individual go to your equivalent of the small claims court against the vendor. If he gets enough claims it will be cheaper to settle than spend the money and time in court
> He [Clinton] is a liar and a pot smoking draft dodging chauvenist. :->
Are you saying that he is different that the
other president s ?
>I hope he isbrought up on charges when he is out of office and goes to prison.
You can go to prison for adultery in USA ?
And they call it "free country" , the hypocrits...
Now that the Windows Refund Effort has gotten lots
of publicity, I suggest that everyone who thinks
they might buy a Notebook computer in the next
5-10 years do the following:
Go to the feedback page at your favorite vendor,
such as IBM, Compaq, Dell, Gateway. Or better
yet, call them. Or both.
Tell them you want to buy one of their notebook
computers. Tell them that you saw on the evening news last night that it is your right to be able to return the Windows software that comes with the notebook. Ask them what the procedure is to return the software.
These vendors will have to do *something* if there
is this kind of publicity and customer demand.
The vendors are the only ones in a position
to pressure Microsoft where it hurts.
There's a name for what M$ is doing. It's
called fraud. The only reason they can get
away with it, is that they have more lawyers
than programmers. Contact your state's
Attourney Generals office. They can take on
M$ on behalf of consumers in the whole state.
(unless you live in South Carolina). Also,
you can try your local TV station (except the
NBC affiliate). Some of them have a consumer
affairs feature on the nightly news, and M$
is fairly news worthy lately.
It appears that the Dell machine is an IDE system, the LHS machine is SCSI. I'd also go so far as to make sure the LHS price is current, since they indicate at the bottom of the page that prices do change...
You guys made the cover of wired.com. That makes for some good PR. Keep it up!
a-fredst@microsoft.com
talk about weak analogies! that one is extremely flaccid. tell you what, if we put linux on everyone's computer, eric raymond would have to be sure to define "crash" in his _hacker's dictionary_, because people would start forgetting what it used to mean...
If people can't read, it is none of your problems. Are you trying to literate the world?
OS/2 (or I could be using Linux or Be right now), but that's only because I took proper steps to INSURE that. I think only 10-20% of computer owners are actually saavy enough to do this. Why is it that if you want a machine without Windows pre-installed, you have to either go to one of the niche dealers (which most beginning customers won't do, due to lack of information) or put one together by hand? That's like walking up to all of the car dealers in town, telling them what you want, and all of them replying: "Hey, if you want this specific model of car, then you can drive 50 miles to a dealer that specializes in that model or put it together yourself!"
That isn't choice. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
Choice in the operating systems market would be me getting my mother to call Dell and having Dell walk my mother through the purchase of a machine down to having her pick the 3-4 OSes they happen to be installing at the time. (And no, before you use VA Research ala Microsoft using BeOS in it's defense, let me just say that VA Research, for all it's potential is NOT Dell and isn't Gateway either)
I'll believe there is choice in this market when does finally happen, and not one minute before.
My last hardware upgrade (a new motherboard) was a nightmare. Linux booted up without a hitch. I only needed to turn on VIA busmastering and ATX poweroff support, but that was not necessary to get a running system. Windoze on the other hand went ape shit when it found my new motherboard. It decided it wanted new drivers for my PCI bus. These drivers came on a cdrom with the motherboard, and my cdrom drive is attached to (you guessed it) a PCI SCSI card. Can you say catch-22? I eventually had to reboot to Linux and copy all the drivers to my hard drive before I could even get Windoze to boot. I fscking hate plug-and-pray. The only reason '95 is still on my hard drive is for games, but at the rate Wine is going that reason may soon vanish and my world will be a much happier place for it.
Cost savings is part of the reason MS has been so sucessful in strongarming the OEM's into exclusive contracts. The OEM's are trying to keep costs to a minimum becuase their market is so competitive. They would rather make a deal with the devil^H^H^H^H^H MS for a deep discount on Windows rather than have to pay retail price for it and have to pass that cost on to the consumer, thus losing their competitive edge. Until these exclusive licenses are ruled illegal, this practice will continue and MS will have the OEM's on a short leash.
Heh.. well, IIRC, there's a little bit of a joke here -- People were supposed to get back a few Presidents (a.k.a. Dollars) on Presidents' day.. Made sense to me ;-)
But yeah, it's kind of bad to have it on a holiday..
You mean they locked off the single floor?!?! I have serious questions about that..
I hope you were goofing off when you wrote that.. "Lunix"?!? "arguement"? "thes"?
Oh well, probably shouldn't have said anything..
Interesting, never knew of this. Obligatory links: 1, 2.
Note that Hanson was President of the United States in Congress Assembled", not "President of the United States", the current office.
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Subject:
[svlug] Other report posted on freebsd list
Date:
15 Feb 1999 23:59:26 GMT
From:
marc_news@merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
Organization:
Private Linux Box proudly running a modified RedHat Linux 5.2
To:
svlug@svlug.org
-----------------------------------------------
From: Gregory Sutter
To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, announce@bafug.org
Subject: Windows Refund Day: Bay Area Report
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:14:38 -0800
FreeBSD folk,
This report is being written from the CoffeeNet, where we've all met
after the event in Foster City. We didn't exactly "storm the Gates",
but both the Linux and FreeBSD communities turned out in force,
accompanied by a couple of others (I saw a Sun and an SCO person).
We got to the parking garage where the Microsoft "welcome table" was
set up. There were Microsoft-sponsored refreshments and a lot of
press, including many major stations.
A few of us grabbed some press members with cameras and headed for
the main entrance. We arrived and were greeted by a friendly
Microsoft security guard, who told us that we were not allowed to go
up to the ninth floor (where the Microsoft offices are). When the
press members began questioning her, she called another person, who
apparently called security, because they showed up long before any
Microsoft representative would talk to us.
I was interviewed by several press members at this time, right from
the lobby of the Microsoft office. Several others had arrived by this
time and we were becoming more forceful in our attempts to get to the
Microsoft Office. People began getting on the elevators, only to find
that they had been locked down so that nobody could visit the ninth
floor. those going to the tenth and using the stairs found that the
stair doors were locked from the inside as well, so nobody actually got
into the office. (Later, they locked the elevators down completely.)
After twenty minutes or so of increased numbers of refund attempters, a
person claiming to be a Microsoft representative appeared. While
several of us attempted to get some straight answers out of him, he
would only give us the typical Microsoft doubletalk. He handed out a
sheet explaining Microsoft's statement on the refund policy[1] and would
only echo what was contained on that paper. Although several tried, we
were unable to get him to admit even that this was Microsoft policy and
not just a random statement.
Around this time, the rest of the group arrived and the press began
seriously interviewing everyone. I saw Eric Raymond and many others
being questioned repeatedly on the purpose of the gathering and whether
Microsoft had issued a statement. There was a _lot_ of mass media
presence at the event, and Microsoft's attempts to stonewall us at the
door didn't impress anyone. I look forward to the news reports tonight
and tomorrow.
Toward the end, we all just stood in the courtyard and kibitzed before
finally breaking up around 1:45 to return to our regularly scheduled
activities (and a fine gathering at the CoffeeNet). Gregory Sutter,
reporting for OSS News[2], signing off.
[1] For the full document, see
after 20:00 PST today.
[2] and Daemon News.
Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced.
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052
-----------------------------------------------
Marc
--
"Microsoft is to software what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking"
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ (friendly to non IE browsers)
Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key and other contact information
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echo "unsubscribe svlug" | mail majordomo@svlug.org
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
see http://www.svlug.org/mdstuff/lists.shtml for posting guidelines.
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
If you care to research the issue, this is known as the "resale doctrine" of copyright. Licensed software is arguably not a sale of copyrighted materials (the software is covered by copyright, but you have merely licensed, not bought it). Pick a fight with a lawyer or go look at misc.int-property or Findlaw for more information.
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Glass, steel, fake-looking (but real) landscaping.
yick.
I want to die peacefully in my sleep as my grandfather did...
Actually, it's "Presidents' Day"... note, plural Presidents. The specific Presidents referenced are George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, who both had birthdays in February. Both centuries dead, and thus obviously longer ruling, and both generally considered among the "great" American Presidents.
I think our _current_ President's day was a few days ago, when the lynch mob failed to get the votes they needed for conviction...
do not wish to force to pay for it!
In my case, I need to keep my copy, but the language in a contract can be deemed unenforceable if the conditions are onerous.
See those signs, saying your lost belongings are strictly your responsibility? Depending where you are a good lawyer can turn that disclaimer into a joke.
Moreover, since we are talking of law, for which I suspect you hold the same level of expertise as I: None! Consider where auto manufacturers had similar contracts, that were thrown out, because there was too great of an asymmetry of power between the writer and the buyer. You may have gone to law school, but like our esteemed congress representatives in the House and Senate have demonstrated, (despite most being trained as lawyers) ignorance of the law. The contract writer may not hold the power entirely in their hands, no matter how clever their words may be. That will be for a higher court to determine, rather than either I or you may deem as the correct Opinion.
If you can order ten thousand hard drives, you can get Compaq prices too.
Otherwise, forget it. You're crazy if you think you can buy in single digits and get within 30 percent of the bulk rate.
That's business: you seem not to be aware of it. Have you bought any electronic part in quantities over a hundred, even? I have- your wonderful retailer might be THREE TIMES the bulk price depending on the exact part.
Sorry: DIY costs significantly more.
Posted by BobDole:
Microsoft is between a rock and a hard place.
They can't force someone to accept the EULA. And they can't make someone pay for the software if they don't accept the EULA. If they do not give the refunds, they are commiting breech of contract and liable to not only civil lawsuit for the cost of the product, legal costs, and punitive damages, but also it provides more food for the DOJ because then they would be forcing people to choose Windoze.
Posted by Mr. Assembly:
You know this just shows why software "licences" or EULAs (end user license agreements) are such a big scam. Its an excuse for big companies to sue somebody for putting an extra copy on a server somewhere, but yet they don't intend to keep their end of the so called "agreement". If I were these people knocking on the door today, I would see if Microshaft knows how to say the words "class action". Maybe they would have a harder time locking the doors to a proccess server.
You know, do these guys even know that they have a really bad PR problem on their hands? Do they even care????
Posted by Mr. Assembly:
It could be like that beer commercial during the superbowl. If you ran out of toilet paper you could always grab the EULA..........
If you'd actually been following this story, you'd have known that.
That is precisely the catch-22 that people are protesting, in case you hadn't noticed. MS says it's not their problem because you have to take it to the vendor. The vendor says it's not their problem because MS won't compensate them for the returned product.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
The point was valid though. If MS can't hold up its end of the EULA, then the user should not be responsible for holding up his end either. To say anthing else is hypocracy.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I think you are missing the point to why 99.999% of the people buy computers. It isn't to spend countless sleepless hours tweaking /etc files or poring through video card and monitor docs to make sure settings will work under X Windoze. It isn't because they want to make sure they are using kernel version 2.0.2.1.3.44.5.2.3.44.5... by recompiling their kernel every other day. It isn't to use vi/emacs/gcc/gdb to write their own check balancing program from scratch in C because current offerings have some obscure bug that can't be fixed because the former developers got bored with the project. It isn't because they want to go out and learn obscure markup commands in LaTeX to help their kids write a report for school or update their resume.
Hrm.
I got one question.
What in the hell does this entire message have to do with Free Choice, or paying for something that you didn't ask for?
Frankly I could give a shit if you like NT more or not, although I would question your choice in forums to discuss such a thing.
-Erik-
So, please try your best to explain what choices are being suppressed by your lack of getting a refund? I don't think the refund has anything to do with choice; it reeks of mob rules from a group of people who are used to everything being free of charge.
Here we go with another car analogy... (Screen fades like a pool of water and whooping sound ensues..)
Ok. You just bought a ford from the dealership. Ford's, they run basically on Unleaded Gasoline. Some of them are nice cars, some of them suck rocks.
But, Ford Motor Co. uses dealerships to sell their stock.
Now, imagine going into a Ford Dealership and finding out that you have to purchase this special attachment to your gas tank to use FORD brand gas, and there's no way to get out of it, unless you want to buy a different car. And, it is common knowledge that most cars run better on unleaded gas than on FORD brand gas.
But, there are only Ford Gas Stations around. So, if you buy a chevy, honda, diahatsu (sp) or whatever, you might as well start storing your gasoline in your tank, because you sure as hell aren't going to find it outside of specialty areas.
Hopefully this made the point. This has little or nothing to do with Linux, Be, OS/2, or whatever, it has to do with the fact that people would like the choice that they deserve. Windows (or the FORD gas adapter, with the gas being binaries/whatnot) is the only thing that's keeping itself in business. There are no technological advantages to using windows, nor are there really any "ease of use" issues that are truthfully prevalent in windows that do not exist anywhere else.
Other operating systems have installers. I'd say a good 90% of Windows being a force period in the market has to do with 3 things:
1) Monopolistic Power (ie, bundling with PC's)
2) Binary Compatibility
3) Name (that of being the only one that most people know)
When people see, hear, and speak about a subject, when they only know one answer or topic of discussion, the actual discussion of hte topic itself is moot because there is nothing to discuss. Hence if there is only Windows, there is only Windows to discuss and alternatives are ignored due to the fact of ignorance.
-Erik-
had lotsa fun walkin n talkin and waving to the passing cars, and up in SF, lotsa good free food...i had nothing to returnto M$, but had lotsa fun joking etc.
Cheers
ZC
---------------------------------
HotsOS home http://hotsos.8m.com/
Linux users advocating software piracy is not something I'd like to see on the news. In this case, however, I think people will see it for what it is: a sign of frustration that Microsoft refuses to honor (or tell OEMs to honor) what is practically the single responsibility taken on by Microsoft and it's distributors in the EULA. If they can't even honor this one point in the EULA, why should they expect anyone else to honor their responsibilities under the EULA?
IMO Microsoft is every bit as bad as the biggest software pirates out there. Neither one of them will live up to their responsibilities. It just looks worse when Microsoft does it because it's hypocritical as well as immoral, irresponsible, and illegal. By refusing to honor their agreement to give refunds to those people who do not want the software and refuse to agree to the EULA, Microsoft is stealing from those people. They can't sit on their high horse and tell the world how software piracy is theft while they are doing the same thing to us. They wrote the damn EULA, they should live up to it.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
>Ok, not to be tha nit picker here, but it was
... you're wrong.
> Han that said "Let the Wookie win" to C3PO
Oops
I guess I get to be the nitpicker.
C3PO complains to Han about Chewbacca's anger at losing.
Han says (in essence) that Wookies have been known to pull people's arms out of their sockets when that happens.
C3PO says to R2: "I suggest a different strategy - let the Wookie win".
C3PO: "Let the Wookie win."
(As in - Microsoft looses, it'll do the electronic equiv. of rip people's arms off)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
At least in the copy of the NT 4.0 EULA I have handy, the words are:
(Emphasis added.)
So, don't go to MS, go to wherever you bought the system from.
MS never wants to deal with you, only with your money.
I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one. -- desert rain on http://www.dailykos.com/user/
You're right that if the EULA is invalid, people would only have the default permissions that copyright law grants them -- that is, none. However, they don't have that permission, nor a lot of other permissions, under the EULA.
People would still have the legal right to use the software, however.
-russ
That's true. The problem is that you've paid Microsoft for the privilege of using the software. If you can't use the software for whatever reason (such as not agreeing to the license), they have to give you a refund.
If MS forces you to pay the money, even if you don't agree to the license, then the contract is coerced. That means that the contract is no longer valid.
You are correct in that copyright still applies. However, the provisions in the EULA go way beyond copyright; the provisions include things like no disassembly, no reverse-engineering, can only use on the computer you bought it with, etc. And nothing in copyright law says that, once you've bought and paid for a copy and possess it, that you can't use it. You can't copy it, of course, but you can use it on a single machine. And decompile it, and disassemble it, and reverse-engineer it, and remove it from one computer and reinstall it on another, etc.
They called a month ago when arranging this thing. The offices were supposed to be open. Plus, MS has known about this event (and the timing of it) for at least a couple of weeks-- they have had official and unofficial reponses. You figure they could have mentioned it then, if the hours had changed.
Nope. They are just hiding. Scared of bad press-- so they figure no press is better.
I'd imagine that the vast majority of these people already tried contacting their vendors. If the vendor won't do it, then it's only logical to go one step above the ladder. What you're saying is that the salesperson who sold you the product won't help you, so now you're SOL. No point in trying to go to his superior. Since this seems to be a problem that spans companies who are all selling MS OSs, I'd say a class action lawsuit is well founded. But then again, IANAL... but I'd also bet that YANALE. Here's my view of the situation. MS wrote the license, the EULA is an agreement between the user and MS.
It would seem to me that MS would be able to handle some freaking frefunds. I mean what percentage of people will actually want a refund? 1 or 2% maybe? Hell it would be virtually 0 if their contracts with OEM's weren't so restrictive.
--
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
Well from what I understand, the dorks all went to their local Microsoft office instead of the OEM that sold them the PC with Windows pre-installed, which is what they have to do to get a refund.
So no, they didn't get money back. Why? They were barking up the wrong side of the tree. It WAS the right tree, however.
Just thought I'd point out, Userfriendly.org's comic today is about Refund Day kind of... I thought it was funny anyways.
You make it sound much easier than it really is. There does not exist a single vendor of laptops that will sell you a new laptop without Windows.
Even VA Research laptops come with Windows, although it is not installed by default.
John, you are sadly mistaken if you think that people can easily buy computers without Windows. For instance, there is no x86 laptop vendor in the world who will sell you a new laptop without Windows. Even VA Research laptops come bundled with Windows.
Your suggestion that people can avoid Windows by building their own computers also does not apply to laptops. It is simply not possible to build a laptop from parts.
If you can point me to a single vendor who will, from the start, sell me an Intel x86-based laptop without making me buy Windows, then I will concede your point. Until then, you must accept the fact that there is currently no choice available in this market.
Actually, instaed of advocating piracy of the windows software, one must remember that there are two sides of every contract. Microsoft has said in the EULA that if you weren't going to agreee to the EULA, then you sohuld take it back foe a refund. This implies that Microsoft should have made provisions for those who were going to request a refund. This was THEIR side of the deal. You upheld your side by trying to get the aforementioned refund due you by not using, or having any desire so to use their software (and who can blame you?). Therefore it up to them to keep up their side of that deal as was proposed, written and placed in the EULA by microsoft. Further, this failure of microsoft to follow up on it's side of the EULA then (I could be wrong, but I dinnae think so) this constitutes Breach of Contract on the part of microsoft.
Can we say "Class Action Lawsuit" boys and girls?
Sure, I knew you could.
just my two shillings worth
-- Wiccan Army, 13th Airborne Division "We will not fly silently into the night"
Well, We at our little store allow for free choice of an operating system and don't tie you down to Windows. So now we need to find the other 199,999 PC makers are
-- Wiccan Army, 13th Airborne Division "We will not fly silently into the night"
Well, I don't know if this is what it sounds like but if:
Is this really a holiday about a damn politician? A live and even a currently ruling one???
Wow, I can see them try something like that here (Sweden). A day for Göran Persson hahahaha, he wouldn't dare to set his foot in the country for 30 years, and I wouldn't want to be them the next elections...
And the places of purchase more often than not say "no" to the refund- which the contract plainly indicates is supposed to happen.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I was unable to attend this event and would really like to see some narrated pictures. Please? :)
This was significant, not in the fact that they wanted to just get their money back but in the fact that they were sick and tired of having a program they didn't want pushed on them.
Their next step probably will be vendors (boycotts?) and will probably have the same reaction.
As for it being a holiday, Microsoft told callers they would be open. They probably just bailed out when they realized what may happen.
I wish I was there, but I couldn't be. Too bad. But to those who where there, think of what it was like. Linux has often been called David to Microsoft Goliath. This was in essence a slingshot forward.
And about this hurting Linux and Open Source? Forget that. It is too strong now, and this was just people who wanted to return something that they didn't use.
If you were given a glass of water every time you asked for an empty glass, wouldn't you be upset it you wanted the glass for juice or pop or whatever?
(Usually I come up with good analogies, but today I'm not.)
So don't give the masses who don't want the included software any trouble.
Hey, since some are suggesting that the EULA is between the OEM and the end user, then how could Microsoft uphold the anti-piracy aspects of the EULA? Shouldn't the OEMs be responsible for that as well?
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Presidents' Day came about when Nixon combined Washington's birthday (originally the 11th, now the 22nd after the 11-day calender adjustment) with Abraham Lincoln's (the 12th) to be on the 3rd Monday of February, and it now commemorates all *past* presidents, living or dead.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Every major OEM (Dell, Gateway, etc) licenses Windows on a *per-platform* basis, not *per-computer*. What that means is that the copy of Windows you are getting was licensed by Microsoft as part of every copy of Windows on that particular model of computer.
;-) Then if you wanted to fight, you'd have to bring an anti-trust suit against the OEM for bundling the software with the hardware (note that Microsoft would not be liable for this, pricing schemes notwithstanding, unless their license with the OEM specifically stated they could *not* remove the software prior to sale).
This does *not* mean the copy of Windows was free. What it does mean is that the real value will be the cost of the OEM's license divided by the number of computers of that model the OEM has installed the software onto. So you shouldn't expect to get very much (unless it's a new model with a small production size), but since money was never the real motivation here, you can give all the affected OEMs a big headache when you demand to know how much your license was worth.
IANAL here, but the most secure way of getting a refund would probably be to find out before hand how much the individual license would be sold for (by the OEM) if it were listed seperately from the computer; because otherwise, the OEM can just argue that the license had no value by itself and therefore you would receive a refund of nothing (although you could probably make them accept the unused software at their expense, and print you a check for $0.00
Perhaps this scenario is even better for the movement than people getting $90 bucks back, because it would highlight Microsoft's licensing schemes with OEMs (which could be considered exclusionary, or predatory pricing) and would also highlight the OEMs' bundling practices. It also sets up MS and numerous big OEMs for a class-action anti-trust suit (has there every been such a thing?) with a much more solid argument than anything having to do with Internet Explorer bundling. Here, the bundling is clear because hardware and software are obviously seperate products.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
I'm not talking about damages resulting from copyright infringement, I'm talking about damages resulting from violation of the EULA. You yourself said that the license with the end user is between end user and OEM. Therefore any violations of the license must be managed by the OEM and not Microsoft (unless you purchases a shrink-wrapped edition). Not just copying [which would be a violation of copyright], but reverse-engineering, transferring to another computer (not a violation of copyright as long as one copy exists), etc, etc. Microsoft can only ensure that the OEM is not violating *it's* license between it and Microsoft.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
So, how many crashes have you had today?
fish and pipes
Microsoft has to stand by their license. If they won't abide by it, then they should face appropriate legal penalties.
Boy, this should knock some wind out of the already-sputtering M$ defense in the DOJ suit. Reading all of the horror stories of people trying to get a refund, there's only one word to describe the OEM-Microsoft relationship: MONOPOLY. M$ can't sit there and say they don't hold a monopoly when every major OEM is REQUIRED to sell systems with windoze installed, regardless of what the consumer wants/needs. That's bad business, folks, and I dearly hope M$ pays the price... BIG TIME.
Adam "Fogie" Fogler -- Professional Paid College Student
I was able to catch the early news coverage of refund day on three of the four local television stations. The fourth station (KTVU channel 2) does not have an early news show. All three stations that I saw had good stories on the event, with interviews with the various participants. All of the stations highlighted Linux as an alternative to Windows, and all of them pronounced Linux correctly. All three stations had at least soundbytes from Eric Raymond, and from a Microsoft PR flack. None of the three portrayed the Linux advocates as weidos, crazies, or anything else derogatory. and none were particularly nice to Microsoft either. There were lots of pictures of penguins on t-shirts and signs. It was really great to see all this publicity!
1 999/02/15-refund_kronv.rm
In terms of quality and accuracy, I would have to rate the local CBS affiliate the highest - Channel 5, KPIX. They made the exact issue of why people want the rebate, why people use Linux, and the EULA allows them to ask for a refund. They also did a better job of explaining how the OEMs and Microsoft pass the problem back and forth between each other. They also had the best balance between the Microsoft spokesman and the various Refund day people. A transcript of their report is at:
http://www.kpix.com/news/newswiz/mon630.htm
This link may only work on 2/15 - I could not find a date-specific link.
Channel 4, KRON, the local NBC affiliate, did a pretty good job, with better coverage of the actual event. They were the only ones showing the Microsoft people not letting people in the elevator going up to their office. They also had the longest story, with the most interviews. One of the news anchors, Suzanne Shaw, explained after the story ended that Linux was started by Linus, that it is available free, and that "nobody owns it." She actually sounded like a Linux user. Their story is available on the web at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ramhurl.cgi?file=
KGO - Channel 7, the ABC affiliate, did what I thought was the worst story - among other things they spelled Eric Raymond's name wrong - Eric Ramen!!! They also did not make it clear exactly why people would expect a refund, or how the EULA was involved. All in all, it wasn't a bad report, just the weakest of the three. As far as I can tell, video or text for this story is not available on their website
I was really impressed by the amount of coverage the story got from all three stations. I'm looking forward to 10pm, where the local Independent / Fox affiliate has their news hour. They are the most popular local news broadcast, and do very good coverage of local news stories.
Cheers
Eric
You said ...
`Any company is free not to do business with M$, and then they do not have to pay their "tax."'
Simply put it isn't that simple.
From what I understood, the root of the problem is that OEMs are strong armed into taking an all or nothing approach to bundling Windows, with any given line of machines they sell. With Windows at 90% of market (I don't remember the source of that figure, I think it's based on M$ licence sales) it is impossible for that OEM to sell two OSes one of which is non-MS, on any line. It dosn't take a marketing genius to figure that selling X machines on a given line, without Windows, could only be justified by guarenteed 50% of the sales(assuming the mark-up is the same) plus enough sales to offset the additional cost of buying unused licences for each of those machines. Again it dosn't take a MBA to figure out that any new, potentially competitive, (non-Windows) OS will have to overcome the burden of going from zero or close to zero users, to enough users to buy at least, say 80% of the computers, in a given line.
How would you suggest that a development team go about making an OS that is can beat the long term viability arguement(FUD) and robust enough to lure away enough people from M$ to take over 80 percent or more of any computer line? The only people capable of installing and using a brand new OS with a high number of new features and configurability are the geeks. Many uses of computers in the market require a high level of dependibility that M$ can't (or won't) deliver, so those businesses look away from M$ for solutions. The risk of direct punishment from is M$ is lessened because of the DOJ case, and many OEMs are in brave fashion. Risking server lines now is a bit like a desperate cry for help on the part of the OEMs to geeks and the business. If the DOJ case ends tommorow and there still is a M$ after the dust settles, they will be looking to punish deviants. The server lines offered now are a testement to the sheer numbers of Linux users and the desperation of companies like Dell and Compaq to be able to make their own rules.
The installation of any OS is a hard battle for most people to overcome. The masses don't know enough to know who to trust, so they go to the big OEM's to protect them. The day all OEM's are allowed to sell low end systems to the masses (under five hundred dollars) with a non-M$ OS preinstalled with M$ adding a total financial burden of 0 dollars to the cost, is the day you see M$ actually have to compete.
end rant code block*/
Hear is a relevent definition, see one of many mobster movies for useage.
rack'et, n.[probably echoic.]
3. (a) an obtaining of money illegally, as by bootlegging, fraud, or, especially, threats of violence;(b) any dishonest scheme or practice;
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
I forgot to point out that you can, of course, simply resell the software if you have not agreed to a license forbidding this.
I have a OEM copy of Blows 95 still in shrink wrap, but I'm still too busy drinking ... maybe whne I recover later this week I'll return it
support gun control: take guns from cops
Even though YOU'VE never had a problem with the brakes on your 1994 (whatever)mobile car even though millions of others have had theirs fail while on the road does not mean shouldn't issue a recall. Furthermore, you would PROBABLY want to take your car in too even though you haven't had a problem, right? I know I would.
--- "The problem is not that the world is full of fools, it's that lightning isn't being distributed correctly." -- Mar
Besides, don't most licenses contain lines stating that the license may be changed without warning?
So they can change the license under you to "you now owe us everything you have ever owned, currently own, and ever will own. You consent to being shot if you so much as murmur disagreement."
Or not.
No corporate lawyer worth a streetsweeper's salary would let their boss sign a blank cheque that big.
Isn't there a fire code in that city?!?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Microsoft has repeatedly announced a 64 bit version of NT. Where the hell have YOU been?
Yes, we all know about Microsoft's sterling record in living up to preannounced enhancements of NT. Can you say Cairo? Good, I knew you could.
So after 1995, it really was the free market that kept out would be competitors, right? Wrong. MS restructured its agreements with OEMs such that rather then charging for Windows 9x per-CPU, they charge a licensing fee per "model." If Toshiba were to install BeOS on a 650CT, they'd still have to pay a license fee for Windows 9x. To avoid paying the license fee they'd have to introduce a new model, which means silk screening and manuals, which just isn't worth it for a niche market. But it gets better. Besides tying the license fee to a model number, the discount is also dependent on a high percentage (I don't know the number) of all systems they sell shipping with an MS OS. There is no incentive on the OEMs part to expand their offerings in alternative OSes, because they would lose their licensing discount in their primary market if the alternatives were even marginally successful. The large OEMs are finally starting to offer Linux on their servers. The only reason they can do this is because of relatively low volume of servers, higher margins, and the high cost of Windows NT server. I don't think you'll be seeing BeOS, Linux or FreeBSD on Dell's low-end machines, at least not without MS getting it's cut. MS has its hands tied with the antitrust case, but if they win the case, you can expect that MS will start turning the economic thumb screws again.
I'm amused by your comment about MS's practice of forcing products on OEMs so they can get Windows as "for the most part stopped." In what way has it stopped? MS told Gateway that it could not ship Netscape as the primary browser (with its icon on the desktop instead of IE's icon). I have no problem with the browser being part of the desktop, but there is no technical reason that prevents IE from being part of the desktop and Netscape being you're default web browser on the desktop. Are you going to tell me that Gateway had a choice? Sure, they could have chosen to go out of business.
Have you read you're EULA for any MS applications? The EULA states that you are only licensed to run the application on an approved MS OS. It doesn't say they won't support the application on non-MS OSes (which would make sense), it says you are not allowed to run the application on other platforms. There aren't any non-MS OSes that can run MS Office, but MS has made it illegal just in case. The list of abuses of the market and thier customers goes on and on.
MS has no interest in the free market, they throw up roadblocks at every turn. Those of us who don't want any of our money going to MS's war chest have every right to be pissed off and to want our money back.
--
This signature left intentionally blank.
Somebody outa report them to the Fire Marshall! Hahaha
Ahem. Many of us here are programmers by trade. Being a programmer, one tends to appreciate efficiency. Obviously, the use of '!=' is more efficient than equivalent english phrases such as, "is not" or "does not equal". Since such conventions are generally understood, it makes perfect sense to utilize them in inter-geek communication.
Now, I'd strenously recommend you seek some form of anger-management counselling. If something as small as != gets you that riled up, you've got some serious issues to deal with.
Have a nice day.
"What do you mean, invalid parameters? 9000Gigs of RAM and it can't answer a simple question!" -- Earthworm Jim
Although we're certainly not Dell, Compaq, Gateway, etc., etc., we're a long way from a garage operation.
I have all ideas VA won't fit in Larry's garage, either. We're both doing very well without pushing MS products.
Dell started in a dorm room, so what's the stigma there?
There are alternative OS shops that sell and support Linux.
Former Inmate, VA Linux Sanitarium
My company has Linux laptops for sale. That's all we do. No Windows or anything else on them.
Nick
LSG
So in order to avoid the Windows tax, you go to linux-hw?
PS450WS100, 450MHz P2, 128M, 4.5G $2873.
Dell Dimension, 450MHz P2, 12.9G, 17", Zip $1799.
The Dell talks about heaps of software, multimedia (CD, sound, gfx) and so on. I'm missing something here; why is the PS over $1000 more expensive for 8G less disk space and probably a 14" monitor instead of 17"? Admittedly, I didn't spend more than a couple of minutes looking, but neither is your average business bod who is even considering switching. The $$$ count alone kills the linux-hw option for anyone without more cash than sense.
Okay so it works with Linux but that's not enough of an incentive for me to stop buying Dells and dropping Win98 - paid for or otherwise - in the round file. Seems you can "pay" for Windows, or "!!!!!!___P-A-Y___!!!!!!" for Linux. Linux-hw obviously charges a "bad at maths" tax.
What about those who are in need of a bit more integrated machine such as a notebook? While it's nice having access to OEM notebook parts, I know that not everyone has such access. Most retailers won't carry parts so that consumers to build their own notebooks because they are aware of all the warranty risks involved. We need to find a nice, high quality notebook manufacturer who is willing to sell a tested, bare machine.
Now why would we want to do that? We have Linux, after all....
Sounds to me that Microsoft was afraid that Linux (or others, of course) users were going to harass them in their offices or cause damage. I wonder if thats unfounded.... At least they were prepared, thats a plus!
hmm
Suddenly, the hairy finger of a familiar monkey tapped me on the shoulder. It was time.--G. T.
I wish people would take the time to read the EULA before they start talking about Class Action or any other types of Law Suits. The people they should be talking to are Toshiba, IBM, Dell or whomever they bought their PC from. Sure marching on good ol' MS sounds better but it isn't the right thing to do. The end result of all this hubbub will be that a few Linux users will get embarassed in court when a judge tells them they have filed against the wrong company and throws it out...
Seeking the refund is futile if you don't goto the right people in the first place.
It goes something like this.. johnny cochrane is talking about endor, the ewok's and chewbacca and then says:
Why am I talking about Chewbacca when a man's life is on the line?
Why? I'll tell you why. I don't know. It doesn't make sense. If Chewbacca does not make sense you must acquit. Here look at the monkey.
I find the results of the Bay Area protest interesting in contrast with the Irvine event. Here, about ten people showed up, half of who had OSs to refund (myself included) and half of who were curious. In Irvine, we were ushered onto the elevator by an ultra-efficient security detail and sped to the 18th floor of the plush high rise.
We were given free snacks and sodas and presented with a piece of paper with Microsoft's well-known position: It's between you and the OEM. A couple of Microsoft folks who were borderline-friendly stuck around to answer questions. There was no statement made other than the handout.
The Irvine Company, who is Microsoft's landlord, handled the protest with the smooth competence for which Donald Bren and friends are known. They had only one request: No pictures on their grounds. Fortunately, I was able to sneak in a few. The Microsoft folks must have been listening, since they initially allowed pictures in their offices, but later prohibited them. My camera is a Canon XL1 MiniDV camcorder; it looks a great deal like units used by professional newspeople. I think I scared them, but I would have rather gotten better pictures.
Unfortunately, I'm having some unexpected technical problems; pictures will be posted tomorrow morning. I'll post the URL in the appropriate thread.
D
Boy, reading this really gives me the warm
fuzzy feeling about Microsoft. The same kind of
warm fuzzy feeling one get's when a bottle of
hot sauce is rammed up your rear end, that is.
This could have been THE big chance of MS to
improve their public image and reaffirm to Win-
Users everywhere that MS is still there to back
them up. They could have performed the refund as
an act of good faith and goodwill to both the
public at large and the DOJ.
But no. Like the tight a**'d, customer screwing
brute that they are, MS decides to lock out the
very movement which could have helped them. I mean,
come on. All these people wanted was a measly
$50 or so check from the company. Is that so
damn hard to provide? Probably. And if so, then
they have real problems. As right now, MS is
in the realm of "can-do-no-right".
EULA's are contracts between two or more parties.
As the EULA is worded, the parties are the
producer(MS), the end-user(US), and the place of
purchase(Wherever you bought the software).
In the words of the EULA, the refund has to come
from the supplier. Be it the store, the shop
where the computer was bought, or wherever. If they
don't honour the EULA contract, then the users
should contact the producer of the EULA of the
software. In this case, MS.
They made the crappy software. They wrote the
EULA. They are the one's who enter into contracts
with VAR's and OEM's where a refund is not possible.
It sounds like they want to sell software and
put into place a scheme where no refund is possible.
If this is true, they are violating consumer rights.
They are violating their contractual agreements.
This also means that they are liable for their
product since they don't honour their side of
the agreement, we don't have to honour ours.
Did Windows crash and cost you money? Did a
security hole in your WinOS allow people to steal
your credit card numbers? Personal info? Allow
people to crash you from afar?
I think it's time to give back to MS what they
have given to us for so god damn long.
What goes around comes around, and it is high
time that MS got a taste of the shit that they
have been pouring down our throats for who knows
how long.
Don't pirate their software. Why would you want
to violate federal law AND spread windows? If any
thing, write letters to your representatives in
the house. In the senate. Write letters to the
better business beurouas. Let the people in
official positions know what shit we are going
through.
But don't pirate. Pirating is NOT the way to go. They were
unlawful in their conduct, we shouldn't have to
sink to their level.
MS turned their backs on the license agreement.
They should realise the legal entailments of that
action. And people who have lost countless hours
worth of work and customers because the system
crashed, should be compensated for their losses.
Money isn't the important factor. It is basic
responsibility. A contract which was accepted in
good faith between parties. A contract which has
not only not been honoured, but one which has
been encapsulated in a system of contracts where
a refund is either improbable or incredibly hard
to obtain through normal means.
Money isn't the goal. But money is one of the few
things the company in question understands. And if
that is the only method of redressment, then that
is what should be reclaimed.
Just my two cents.
My apologies for the emotionally tinged post. but just hearing about their about turn face at such a public event and their disgraceful actions at a time when they should be attentive to the customers is a disgrace to any business.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
Build your own computers. Install whichever OS YOU
want to install and run!
VAR's and OEM's suffer because of their contracts.
And as so many people have pointed out, it is because
many people want WINOS that the OEM's stock it.
While I believe that to be false, I also believe
that people should have the full rights to chose.
If that means building your own computer, then why
the hell not? you get to chose the parts and better
yet, you get to see which parts work for Linux and
buy accordingly.
OEM's need us. Not the otherway around. When they
wise up to the growing need of alternative OS's in
the market, then it may be worthwhile to go back.
But for those who can, why not make your own
computer and avoid windows completely?
Why pay them to wait for a refund when you can
avoid them completely and not ever have to shed
a penny in their direction?
I speak from personal experience as I've not
bought a prepackaged computer system in my life.
My systems being built from from parts of my
chosing and the OS of my choice. (Linux).
If you don't know how or lack knowledge of building
computers, take that $50-$100 that you would have
spent on Windows and spend it on a good book.
Read and learn. Then go and buy the parts to build
your system. Avoid companies who FORCE you to
buy a Windows system.
Crashes aren't appealing or sexy. They cost money
and detracts from the enjoyment of entertainment.
Lost term papers due to a crash sucks. Frozen systems
during an art project bites. Knowing you actually
paid for this faulty software is sad, but knowing
you could have avoided all this is when it really stings.
Learn and build your own. Free yourself from
another limited system running a limited OS.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
I meant the people who support Windows and
Microsoft. There are such people. MS could have
done some damage control of their public image
during this event through a show of goodwill
towards people who were seeking a refund and
at least make a token effort to strengthen the
loyalty of people who ARE still using Windows,
to quell the fears of those who work for MS and
to show to the media that MS is strong enough
to pay to refund would be's, that their EULA
stands and is worth the paper it is printed on.
Instead, MS has squandered their chances on a
cheap attempt to brush aside a "weak" attempt at
a refund. In doing so, they have not only added
fuel to the big bad image already associated with
them, but weakened the belief that Windows users
had in MS.
So no, I was not referring to the trust and public
image held by the refunders, but rather, by the
IT's and businesses, the home users and VAR's who
are paying attention to such an event. I refer to
their sense of belief, public image, and trust in
MS. What little trust remains, that is.
My apologies for not having been clear as to which
group of people I was referring to.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
I agree completely! There should be more people
who are integrating alternative OS's such as
Linux into the Notebook systems.
More importantly, I think it is vital to have
more OEM type parts available for would-be
laptop builders.
I too have looked for parts to assemble my own
laptop, but have found that what little parts
which are supplied are not enough to build a whole
laptop. This in itself is a problem as well.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Once again, a remainder that there are indeed many perspectives and that it is easy for one, such as myself, to get stuck only seeing from one angle.
However, while quite a few of the users requesting refunds are probably doing it more for fun than for a cause, there are some issues here which should be addressed. Namely, the validity of EULA's and contracts which seem to be at odds. The difficulty of legitimate users from really obtaining a refund.
I can appreciate the fact that you are having a good time with windows. I too used to have a relatively good time. But as time went on, the crashes got worse and the frequency of the crashes increased. I kept my system clean and powered down cleanly. But in the end, the system basically chokes itself to death.
My main reason for switching OS's was reliability. Something I couldn't find in Windows. Games are great under Windows, but to be honest, with the new wave of games being offered for Linux, I really don't see the reason for my even bothering with Windows anymore. That's just my point of view and my personal method of doing things.
But while the level of orderliness for the refund participants was not of the highest level, the repeated refusals on the part of the OEM/VAR with MS as the excuse and the defensive nature of company's responses to requests for legitimate refunds has likewise been disorderly and I would imagine, abrupt, leaving the refundee with no place to turn.
It may not be a big issue in the general populace, but it is a big issue in the world of non-windows users. Much like it wasn't of much concern to people in England in regards to the revolts about a simple thing like tax, it comes down to one simple thing.
People who aren't going to use the OS or benefit from it are paying for it. That there is a structure in place which allows for little or no deviation from this form of taxation.
I can't and really won't bother refunding. I'm one of those people in the masses who's used windows, didn't like it, and have decided to move on to better things. But at the same time, knowing that if I ever decide to buy who systems and knowing I get charged extra because of the OS, it is something of pride and principal. And in the case of mass manufacturing, profit.
It is like buying bugs which come prepackaged with a bottle of soda. But it is a type of soda you really don't like because it makes you sick. But all the mugs out there come with it prepackaged. Clerks look at you funny when you ask for just the mug without the soda. They tell you to just buy it and toss the soda if you don't want it or to return the whole package and go shop elsewhere.
It is ifuriating and in many senses, there is a feeling of prejudice. Of belittlement. And that feeling and attitude is not appreciated.
I myself want a laptop. But I don't want the pre-bundled OS. Nor would I want a laptop specifically hardware tied to an OS I don't want.
It is as simple as saying I want to buy a mug without soda. Without paying for the extra soda because unlike the Coke Cola drinkers, Pepsi drinkers won't benefit from the tax.
Btw, on my campus, that is the case. There is no coke cola on campus, only pepsi. This is due to contractual agreements which force all shops on campus to sell only pepsi and pepsi related drinks.
Many Coke Cola drinkers want Coke.. but are stuck with Pepsi, paying for a Pepsi drink which doesn't help them or their Coke Cola.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.
Pirating Windows software is like scratching a
poison ivy rash. It feels good for a moment, but
causes the rash to spread.
I honestly and truly believe that software piracy
is responsible for Microsoft's stranglehold on
the OS market - what proportion of small offices
bought one copy of Windows 3.1, then went ahead
and copied it to all of their office PC's, despite
the license limitation? How many of the employees of said small offices "borrowed" the same windows disks to take them home and install them?
And...how many would have done so if they'd been FORCED to PAY full price for a license for each use? A much smaller proportion, I suspect. Now, all of those pirates are stuck in a metaphorical rut. Every new Microsoft release gets bought (because the One Copy doesn't cost that much, and 'the boss' isn't familiar with the problems, and merely assumes that the 'new version will fix everything'.). Everyone in the office who's pirated the software has to also pirate the New Product so that they can use the files produced on the one legally licensed machine. The cycle repeats itself, the problem spreads....
All I have to say is I hope Microsoft's anti-piracy crusade succeeds wildly...when it comes down to "pay up or get rid of Windows", hopefully a few people will think, and choose the latter option...
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
Wow, Your right, I fragged that one...
*bows to superior knowledge*
Uh, oops?
Zanthor
It is not software piracy of the EULA is invalid, correct?
I think your concern is misguided. If someone cannot get a refund per the EULA, and they have not agreed to the EULA, then they are not bound by it.
This is about taking accountablility and responsibility for one's own agreement, not piracy.
If Micorsoft forfeits the EULA, then nobody is in violation of it.
If someone pays for the software, but cannot get a refund, they should be entitled to do whatever they want to do with it, if they have made a good faith effort at returning it per the EULA.
If you call that Piracy, then I would be proud to see the Linux community promoting just that. Nothing matters to anyone until it effects the wallet. All the yelling, screaming, and protesting in the world will not do a damn thing, but if MS thinks the invalidation of the EULA will effect licensing fees, you can bet they will take notice.
I don't see how this makes the Linux community look bad at all.
Forcing someone to adhere to their portion of an agreement, under the penalty of rendering that agreement invalid, is not something anyone should be ashamed of.
I'm sure someone must have reverse engineered some parts of Winblows by now. Even a lump of cole as big as that must have a couple of little diamonds worth extracting in it.
Spotted on the M$ website...
"Many of our employees have never written a line of code."
Hey, if no one but Microsoft used their crap, it wouldn't bother me whatsoever.
You don't have a choice? What OS are you using right now to read this?
I'm not sure what the logic is with this supposed lack of choice. Unless you put your computer together from scratch, you bought it from some vendor. Did you buy it knowing a priori that it would come with Windows? If this was so distasteful, why didn't you exercise your choice and a) buy from a vendor that doesn't sell computers with Windows such as VA Research or b) put your own computer together?
So, please try your best to explain what choices are being suppressed by your lack of getting a refund? I don't think the refund has anything to do with choice; it reeks of mob rules from a group of people who are used to everything being free of charge.
So, how many crashes have you had today?
None.
Registry's fine.
No phantom devices detected (I've never heard of this).
Last hardware upgrade was an Intel video capture card. I've even used a beta device driver for my graphics card before with no trouble.
I do quite a bit of programming for work and for my dissertation research. For work, I do ANSI and Windows specific programming. For my dissertation, after trying Java and not happy with the performance of Swing, I switch back to MFC. Some of my programs write and read from the registry, particularly my dissertation research. I also am writing COM components which must be registered. Still, no problems. My next project is to get a second PC for some distributed COM programming tests. After I learn how it works, I don't expect problems.
I, for one, am glad that I was not there. While I don't particularly like the way that Microsoft writes and markets its software, I also don't ally myself with buffoons.
That's right, buffoons. Microsoft clearly and correctly made the point that if you bought Windows 9x bundled with a computer, then you must contact the vendor to arrange for a refund. Microsoft is not the vendor!
Did you buy your computer from Dell? Gateway? Micron? Toshiba? Sony? Those are vendors! Those are the companies that you need to contact.
And whomever said that if one part of the license was invalid meant that the license as a whole is invalid is not only wrong, but had the gall to follow up his demonstration of ignorance with advocation of software piracy. What a moron! Do we get to look forward to free/open software supporters being lumped together with software pirates?
All in all, I think that "refund day" was nothing more than a juvenile publicity stunt that was doomed to failure. The very idea of scheduling the stunt for a US federal holiday virtually guaranteed that the Microsoft offices would be closed.
A victory? Sure...a great publicity victory for Microsoft...and a significant step backward for the legitimacy of Linux and open software.
Thanks guys...for nothing.
Not so. Absolutely not so. The EULA informs you that you must contact your vendor for instructions on returning the product for a refund.
So here's the rub. What happens if the vendor says, "Look, we bundled the copy of Windows with your system and we're not going to unbundle it. Send the whole computer back."
What do you do? It strikes me that you have one of three choices. You send the computer back and buy one from a company that offers you a choice (VA, Penguin, etc.), you keep the computer and throw Windows off in a corner somewhere, or you keep complaining to the vendor until you either get the answer that you want, you get tired of complaining, or you realize that you are fighting a futile battle.
I worked for one of the big computer companies that sells Microsoft products. The policy was that if you didn't want Windows, then you could return the computer. That fit the letter of the EULA. Those were the instructions to be followed if you wanted to return Windows...box up the computer and return the whole works for a refund.
None of these vendors have refused to honor their obligations. They just haven't done things your way. Welcome to the real world. Sometimes you don't get your way.
Sheesh. Can you read?
It won't be posted until 20:00 pst. That's 8:00pm. Duh. It's 4:40pm pst right now.
Dude. You really are SAD.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/02/biztech/ articles/16windows.html
Just by coincidence (naaaw!) tonight, my Moby Database box (PII 300, 256 MB RAM, 30 gig of disk) running NT 4 SP 3 refused to reboot with the lovely classic C000021A Fatal Error.
Eschewing the idiotic Microsoft "Lack of Knowledge" Base instructions (run Dr. Watson [on a non-bootable machine, duh] and then process everything through the Debug Symbols [dub cubed]), I plugged in the backup disk drive I have ready for just such occasions and was running again in three minutes. When I reinstall it will probably be my last EVER Windows install on my stuff (can't prevent clients from having me do it, though).
--------
Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
It's amazing how obnoxious some slashdotters are out there. If you want to make a comment make it a constructive one instead of blurting out moron or stupid.
I for one am really elated at the events today. Alternative OS have gotten their word out and we got M$ attention. Even though few or nobody got their money back we can all agree we got what we wanted, (FREE PUBLICITY)
I contacted my vendor.
For some "moronic" reason they insist on returning the entire computer. How blind are they to the EULA? It clearly doesn't mention the HARDWARE!
The license is for OS not the computer.
They actually believe a computer can run without windows on it!
FUCK YOU COMPAQ,CANADA!
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
It's amazing how obnoxious some slashdotters are out there. If you want to make a comment make it a constructive one instead of blurting out moron or stupid.
I for one am really elated at the events today. Alternative OS have gotten their word out and we got M$ attention. Even though few or nobody got their money back we can all agree we got what we wanted, (FREE PUBLICITY)
I contacted my vendor.
For some "moronic" reason they insist on returning the entire computer. How blind are they to the EULA? It clearly doesn't mention the HARDWARE!
The license is for OS not the computer.
They actually believe a computer can run without windows on it!
Jesus christ I read that my vendor was going to honor the EULA and even ship computers with linux. Well not in C-A-N-A-D-A.
FUCK YOU COMPAQ,CANADA!
-sorry
johnnnyboy != resist.
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
Uh, did you try the STAIRS?
The problem is that when we (Penguin Computing) approached Toshiba and all major manufacturers, they were unaware of the problem. Nina More, the Toshiba CA field manager, which covers all the CompUSAs, Fry's, etc in this state, said she has rarely heard a cry for refund...in fact she never heard of Bennett's refund in Australia!
More attention should be given to the manufacturers because when under enough consumer pressure, they can choose not to sign unfair agreements with Microsoft or in turn initiate trade lawsuits.
More Microsoft Refund Day attendees should talk to Nina Moore and realize it's easier to work with her then Microsoft. Why complain to Microsoft...has Microsoft ever given in to anything...not any market pressure, not consumer rights groups, nor the government.
In so far as Microsoft, let them screw the government and the government will eventually screw with them. Why get involved? I think we all understand how Microsoft plays the game, we should not choose to participate?
For consumers and open source advocates, I believe it's more worthwhile educating more evolved companies. The postings regarding how the manufacturers haven't budge is absolutely false. I make computing systems for a living and talk to these people everyday, and they really are unaware of the market for Linux or the requests for refunds.
If you have bought a notebook from Toshiba or any of the manufacturers, please let them know. If you e-mail me, I will provide you with instructions on contacting them.
Allison Huynh
Educating the Manufacturers
This looks even funnier than it really is when u read it from a linux box :)
Well there are pro's and cons. Yes, it gave Micro$oft and excuse to say they were closed. However, we were previously told that they would be open. Holidays are generally slower news days giving less competition for TV time or inches in the paper. Plus this is the first weekday after the impeachment trial. People have allegedly been saying that they are sick of this trial and sick of all of the coverage. Although I don't think it will be over for awhile, I do think that on this first weekday after the trial the news shows on CNBC, CNN, and MSNBC(well maybe not MSNBC althougth they did have an interview with Linus) will make an honest effort to cover something else. Tomorrow it will be back to the normal of the parsing Slick Willies words.
It's probably about the same as working for any local cable company in a monopoly district like mine Time Warner Cable of Oakland County Michigan. It also must be bad working for Northwest Airlines in Detroit Metro Airport where Northwest controls over 80% of the flights. Not surprisingly they get a lot of antagonism from their costumers on a daily basis as we pay by far the highest rates in the country. You know this LITTLE and I do mean little American Airlines strike. Here the Northwest Strike was 10 times bigger than the AMR strike in NY. Were talking it was the top story for about 3 months as we had essentially no other opion. That's just one of problems you have to face when you are a monopoly. Whenever something goes wrong, people have the right to question it and think that it was just because they have a monopoly. The only people who can hold a major position without having it keep them up every night are usually the hard core corporate republican backers, like head of the consumer affairs for Northwest Airlines at Metro is a heavy Republican backer and she's woman. Not surprisingly she has been the most chastized person in the state this past year. I have done more than my part.
Although the lifts were dissabled to the floor isn't it possible for Microsoft to say that they weren't functioning properly and are not responsible?
However, if in fact they have forfit they're license agreement on one count, does this mean it is forfit on all counts? ie. other microsoft software products.
-mortein
Microsoft headquarters in Silicon Valley is currently in Foster City, just a few miles north of the gleaming green towers of Oracle. They occupy the now infamous 9th floor of an office building in between the world headquarters for Visa.
I showed up around 10:30 AM on my own and found it very quiet with only signs pointing the way to the "Linux Event" (sic) (a nice piece of Microsoft spin). I found my way up to the top floor of the parking garage where the press was assembled listening to a Microsoft spokesman explaining how customers have plenty of choice in their OS and the popularity of Windows is only due to its high quality. At this point only me and a handful of other people had shown up for the demonstration and we quickly found ourselves being interviewed by the press. I talked to 3 reporters.
A little after noon the main contingent arrived to demand their refunds. Led by Eric Raymond (dressed as a Jedi Knight!), they marched through the parking garage up to the top floor in an orderly fashion. Several placards were carried ("I don't do Windows", "No Taxation without Open Source", "Pro-Choice"), and penguins were plentiful. I should emphasize that the BSD people had a strong presence at the demonstration.
For the next half-hour, there was much interviewing by the press and a debate between Eric Raymond and the sole Microsoft spokesman (as far as I know, he was the only Microsoft employee that anybody saw). Finally, several attempts were made to gain access to the Microsoft office to demand a refund.
After finding the parking garage entrance barred, we walked down to the courtyard of the building in an attempt to take the elevator. I had used that same elevator to get to the fourth floor to gain access to the top of the parking garage (an entrance later blocked). 7 people at a time, accompanied by the press, attempted to gain access to the ninth floor. The elevator was working, but was programmed not to stop at the ninth floor. After several attempts, eventually the police blocked the courtyard and at 1:45 PM we marched away (voluntarily) with not one refund handed out.
All in all, about a few hundred supporters of the Free/Open Source Community showed up with perhaps around thirty people actually demanding refunds. There were at least twenty members of the press, both print and media and I talked to reporters from AP, Wall Street Journal and the San Jose Mercury News. They struck me as skeptical of Microsoft and sympathetic, but I was not very clear on how much they understood the philosophy of the Free/Open Source Community. But they seemed very willing to let me try to explain it to them. Microsoft stuck to its party line of that you have to get your refund from your OEM or the store from where you purchased it.
I would call the event a success. There was plenty of press, a lot of high (but peaceful) spirits and Microsoft's arrogant stonewalling did not impress anyone (no sign of a counter-demonstration by the way).
No one got their refunds, but I think an important point was made. I would have advised Microsoft to give people their refunds. Only a tiny percentage of people would ever demand a refund and the good publicity would more than make up for the loss of revenue. Of course, the issue was never money. Neither the people demanding refunds, nor the OEM's refusing them are worried about the money involved. The people who want their refunds do not want to pay for something they are not using on principle. The OEM's, for now, do want to anger Microsoft. And, Microsoft seems afraid that what would be a trickle today could be a flood tomorrow.
Jees, would have thought they (M$) could afford more than just the 9th. floor...
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
What surprises me is that I have not seen one argument in this whole refund thing that makes clear how not only users are caught in a catch 22
but also the vendors. Clearly MS made contracts
with these vendors wherin they are obliged to sell windows with theire hardware. If they would refund
the software MS can hold them to the contract. Thats why most of them ask back the whole computer. Is that legal??????
If there are many OEMs who will sell you a computer without a Windows license (as opposed to selling you it without Windows but still charging you for it), you should have no problem providing us a list of URLs.
I find microsofts tactics in this matter appauling. I cant believe they wont refund money that is guarnteed in the licence. If you can honestly say you said "no i dont agree" to the licencing agreement then you are deserving of a refund. I agree with OctobrX in that if they wont honor their part of the agreement, why should we honor ours. It has been shown time and time again that microsoft is all about money, and could care less about customer satisfaction. So I say down with M$ and that, we should feel free to distrubite their software, until they decide to honor their end of the agreement...just dont get caught!
Spanky is really my cat's name...
Mabye if you learned how to read you could see that I said if you didnt accept "all" of the license. As for your lame attempt to dicredit my intelligence, just shows that you are the ignorant one who really has no argument. I mean really are you working for microsoft or something? I sure hope their payin you well, cause their brainwashin your ass!!!!!
Spanky is really my cat's name...
No the monopoly is about Microsoft forcing Office, Money, IE, or other MS software onto OEM systems just because they have Windows (and that is the *only* way they can get Windows). This practice is wrong, and for the most part has been stopped. But if you can only find OEMs offering Windows, that is not necessarily a monopoly (not by Microsoft's doing anyway). Microsoft doesn't own the hardware, OEMs do not buy the computers from Microsoft for resale. The OEMs are free to install any OS they want. Tell me, when does Microsoft come in and say "DELL... YOU HAVE TO INSTALL WINDOWS!"? What leverage do they have? What can they withhold from Dell if Dell chooses NOT to install Windows? Windows IS the leverage, if companies don't want it the leverage (and therefore the monopoly) vanishes. If Dell (or whoever) doesn't want to install Windows they won't. So obviously we have to move on to something else here. Like, oh I don't know... maybe Dell has figured out that Windows users is where their bread-and-butter comes from?!? And for this reason they will continue to offer Windows. The people you need to complain to here are the OEMs not Microsoft. What, Microsoft is supposed to shut down their whole company because YOU don't like Microsoft products? Hah! They're just doing business wherever they can, can't blame them for that, talk to the OEMs.
The market will follow the demand. If there are no OEMs/VARs offering Linux-installed systems, it is because there isn't enough demand to support operation (and yes, I know there are companies offering Linux, it is just to make a point). The same holds true for companies offering raw systems (without an OS), if there was enough demand for this the companies would be out there.
Damn the world for not bending over backwards for *your* demands? Wake up and do you own bending.
Where do you get off critizing people for typos? Who care? And what the fuck is a "trokan horse"?