Slashdot Mirror
Why Your Server Should be Running Linux
Peter Neves writes
"
There is a Linux story on the very front page of the MSNBC Technology Section, "the front slide" as they call it, on why Linux should be the OS running your server. While the story gives a technical overview on the features and performance of several distributions in comparison to NT, the summary says that Linux is not capable of "Competing with the 800 pound Gorilla" of the MS Marketing and distribtution channels. "
Seems to me this is just more of Microsoft trying to prove they don't have a monopoly. Oh and as a response to the previous lunatic/troll... I run NT Server too, and it does crash. Its an improvement on 95/98 to be sure, but it still a pretty lame OS. The only thing I have to give it credit for is its memory management. The rest is terrible. What kind of gimpy server OS has to restart every time you change something?
Hey Rob, did you accidently lose my posting again. hehehe
At least we now know who the real troll is.
That's RIGHT!! NT is big, fat, ugly and HAIRY?? that's why it's so slow and that's also why M$ takes years to fix bugs while linux does the same thing (IF THERE IS A BUG) in few hours!
By the way who cares what M$ thinks about Linux! All that matters is what real Linux users think.
Since I've started using Linux I've never looked back to Windows again. I can't even compare them. Linux is THE OS. I can configure MY LINUX to be AS I WANT IT TO BE!!
So CUT the crap!
Windows users CAN'T OR DON'T think cause M$ is doing all the thinking for them. that's why all you hear from Win users is : (bah linux sucks cause it's not user friendly)! EXACTLEY you make your linux as friendly as YOU WANT IT TO BE!
NT stands for : New Trouble!
It seems rather ironic that on a news service like slashdot that runs articles about Open Source and Free Software that Free Speech is not protected. The deleted flame, although it was a flame, is just another form of censorship... just my two cents,,,
come on, give me a break
NT whomps on Linux so bad it's not even funny
I remember running Linux way back in 96 and it was crap
I have a hard time believing it's improved much since then
besides, that test was run with the Linux boxes not running X, so of course that helped speed up performance
DUH!
face the facts, Unix is a dead and dying OS
it'll never be anything worth looking at
besides, the world uses NT so until Linux gets some good apps that will be compatable with NT's...forget it
I seem to also recall that NT handles threads better and also multitasks better than Linux
plus NT security is way beyond Linux's
how many NT exploits are there? no where near as many as Linux
geez, next you'll be arguing MacOS is gonna steal back it's share of the market
I tried loging in remotely but I forgot to set up the telnet software. I really work for microsoft. I was paid by ms to show that windows really does have competition and slashdot is a copyright owned by microsoft that was designed to make average day folks like myself look like we all like linux and that NT is about ready to lose all of its market share. We at slashdot would like to thank all of you for making slashdot.org a great and popular website. We at ms would like to offer you a discount for NT server. We are offering the discount for making this great experiment at slashdot.org a sucess. I have been promoted to work on the main microsoft's web site as an assistant administrator for mspress. I hope to see you all their. Thank you!
lets ee how long it takes before this previous post mysteriously disapears. Also the resutls were rigged because they were paid by redhat, Intel, oracle and IBM. Zdnet can not be trusted no matter whic side of the os wars you are on. I use sql server on over 3000 clients and I have had any problems at all.
You are absolutely right - rob has every right to do so - I just seems interesting that someone that seems so for open source movement censors his own website so that only one opion is allowed. It sorta like saying those who havn't found the way don't exist.
Heheh...That's funny stuff! LOL!
-Anonymous Loser
Wow. So realistic, and eloquent too! This is an impressive example of the best things that the internet has to offer, allowing everyone to communicate! That's incredible, how eloquently you stated your intellectual rage at the fact that your post had been moderated to -2! People like you make me hope for the future of the human race.
NT's memory management sucks rocks. I suffer horrible things at the hands of this monster day in and day out at a client's office, and I can't tell you how refreshing it is to return in the evening to the responsiveness of Linux. It's like a cool drink in the midst of the desert.
Did anyone notice the line:
"Windows NT is a product of Microsoft, which is a partner in MNSBC"
Is this the MicroNation Software Broadcast Channel?
Not particularly relevant, but kinda funny late at night.
as I post this, the Linux story on MSNBC is rated at 6.07 on a 7 scale, and is currently the 4th highest recommended story on MSNBC. If enough of us vote 7 (and vote 1 for the other top stories) we can push the Linux story to #1 on MSNBC. Eat that Bill Gates.
Why does Rob censor just about anything including complaints about his censoring, but refuses to touch the nationalistic/ rascist postings that frequently go on here at /.? (You should lower your threshold if you wish to see this posting after it gets moderated shortly.)
I was hearing complaints about censorship for a while so I decided to see what all the fuss is about. With a few clicks (well 20 clicks) I set my threshold WAY DOWN to -20. What I saw didn't at all impress me. I'm glad I don't have to wade through that stuff unless I CHOOSE to. 'Choice' is the key word here.
All of us are busy and the editors are right to exercise their judgement to save us valuable time.
To summarize:
1. They have a right to do so (its their property).
2. Some of us appreciate it.
3. You can see the 'censored' posts
If you don't like it you can go to an 'uncensored'/unmoderated site or better yet set your threshold to -20 or something so you can see
everything.
Maybe as a compromise the site can show more prominently how to change your threshold. Its not hard but some people may not realize there is something like this.
I for one, would not like to read through unmoderated comments about GNU, GNOME, Jon Katz, RMS, ESR, MacOS and other flame inspiring topics.
I have a life!
Windows NT kicks Linux's butt! Here's hoping that MS marketing kicks it into high gear and hands Linux a quick, painless death.
Did you post this article on your gameboy? Slashdot can do more than 40 characters/line. Maybe it's one of those NT quirks.
...on ZDTV have been talking enthusiastically about Linux for quite a long time now, recommending it at every turn. And just the other day I heard one of them first blast MMX and then say that he would *never*, for the obvious reasons, buy an Intel P3 (and Intel is practically a sister company to MS). Seems to me that Ziff-Davis' is just being honest.
After they got their butts kicked by DOJ lawyers, Microsoft will try just about anything to salvage their case in the antitrust lawsuit...
This is almost as funny as Phillip Morris running anti-smoking ads.
the linux kernels have come along way since 1996
and alot more hardware has been supported since 1996 "alot"... i don't see fair judgement in your reasoning
i used NT in 1996 and it sucked, it was buggy as hell, locked up and was a memory hog it was a peice of bloated "#?%^" i wanna fit in with the rest of the unix world m$ wanna be os..
its pretty ignorant to judge something that you don't use...
What's with the ad for being able to run Linux software on Windows 2000? Wow... Combining Windows' famous stability with Linux's broad commercial software base. Can you say "Worst of both worlds"? Most of the really _good_ software for Linux is already available for NT or open source anyways so why not just port it native? If you wanted the benefits of Linux you'd be running Linux, right? I must just be reading this wrong.
Windows CE Technoyuppies = MSNBC
The difference between NT and Linux ?
Well...jerking off and having the real deal...
qubit
I don't understand. If I were Bill Gates I would realize how easy it would be to be not only rich, but a cultural hero as well. I would insist on quality programming and still make $100 billion. It shouldn't be this hard. Do you have to produce crap to succeed in the business world?
MSNBC is running NT...
In my computer room, theres 35+ boxes running either Linux or NetBSD. Theres 1 box running NT WS 4.0. The only time the *nix boxes die is when our nitrous huffing programmers write bad code...but the NT box has to be rebooted at least twice a week because of memory leaks in the OS.
Also, A year or two ago...I replaced NT with Linux on a file server (straight HD change...no hardware upgrades). People kept asking me which SP I installed on NT to make it run so fast. I just told them it was the GNU Service Pack.
Sad sad sad sad sad.
And people wonder why online polls aren't worth the paper they're not printed on.
Almost all the sites that I have seen that are based on Microsoft technologies have some serious technical problems.
The kinds of problems I have seen are bad rendering under Netscape, miniscule font sizes and dialog boxes under Netscape, poor graphics layout, poor scaling to different screen resolution, poor response times, VB/SQL runtime errors (with VB/SQL error messages thrown at the user), etc.
In fact, many of those problems occur on Microsoft's own site. Microsoft's sites serve an excellent marketing purpose--as a warning to others.
Even with the best RAD tools, I don't see how anyone can put together and test five high quality sites per month. But, perhaps, because you are only getting paid $100/h (which is pretty low as far as consulting goes), demands on your quality aren't very high either.
Try clicking on the FreeBSD link on Netcraft and
reading what it says....
Reading through the comments below the article, several of the NT fans use the argument that "hardware is now cheap but development time is expensive, therefore NT is more cost effective because applications can be developed faster with GUI tools than with a UNIX/Perl environment".
(NT typically requires a lot more hardware to match the performance of UNIX)
I've ran into this argument myself. What's a good defense?
Asian teen porn aside, the evil operating system and the amount its proliferatred computers is probably what allows you to write your aging mother an e-mail and expect a reply. Or hook up to your DSL/Cable line, probably mainly populated with highschoolers running win9x and Quake II.
Anyway, just thought I'd chip in. I'm no fan of M$, but every effect they've had is not bad. The internet's a total mess, and I like it that way.
I believe the traditional expansion of "NT" is "New Terminology." :)
#2 is a problem NOW. Video cards anyone?
Good thing the only admins around here who know what they're talking about are the AIX admins...
Let me first say that I find this a good article about Linux.
However it won't be surprise to me if Microsoft is behind the posting of this article, just to show the judge that they have competitors.
Still more are needed (now the difference only 0.3 points.
Also remember to vote Linus at
http://www.linuxcare.com/ for the next leader of the free world!
I've done IS work in a creative department with Mac and PC clients and NT and Linux Servers. I always found it odd that each time I had to make network Changes to either 95 clients or the NT boxes I always had to reboot. While on the Linux box, and even ALL of the Mac's, I could have their network setting changed without being rebooting. I guess this is MS idea of progress: A platform that Can't stay runinng 24/7/365.
This is just the kind of artical I needed to show my boss to convice him there is something out there other than Windows NT when it comes to servers.....
Looking at this page from IE pops up a box which includes the checkbox item:
[ ] Always trust information from MSNBC...
And then there was the Amiga and more.
IBM saved us from IBM by making the PC an open
standard. But if it wasn't the PC it would be
another OPEN standard. There were PLENTY.
MS has made no contributoins to computing,
plain amd simple.
People wanted computers for watever reasons,
its is NOT the marketing that convinced them
it is the GEEKS that spread the virus...
Did you get a clue today ?
Yes, the other day there was a long rant about something not related to Britain including several very long threads including insults about Britain. One title that comes to mind is "Britain - a wonderful third world country". And a few days before that, the same type of rant went on about France. None of this seemed to be "moderated" as you like to put it. (If you missed these threads go back and find the article yourself.)
I find it suspicious that on this website that is dedicated to "Free software as in Free Speech, not free beer." posts about free speech are "moderated" where nationalist ranting is openly condoned. Is the principle of free software somehow more important than the principle of free speech?
As you may also have noted the title of the the first post is "Is Rob a rascist?" not "Rob is a rascist". Thus asking a question based on what he chooses to moderate on this site, not stating that he is a rascist. If he is offended, he should choose what he moderates better or choose not to moderate at all.
And you should be more careful defending policies that you have no control of.
Thanks for brightening up my day. We all need to laugh once in a while, it is good medicine.
NT whomps on Linux so bad it's not even funny
Oh no, you're wrong, this statement is not just funny, it is hilarious. Obviously, you didn't even read the MSNBC article, but then you insist on making such generalizations. Keep up the good work, I need more laughter in my day.
besides, that test was run with the Linux boxes not running X, so of course that helped speed up performance DUH!
Your lack of knowledge about servers is amazing, and funny. I never run X on any of my servers, yet I'm always able to administer them, from wherever the hell I feel like. Why would I run X on one of my servers? I'm laughing just at the thought of that question.
besides, the world uses NT so until Linux gets some good apps that will be compatable with NT's...forget it
Hmmm, what is the most popular MTA on the Internet? How about web server? What about DNS, you know, the system that lets you type in a domain name and then converts it to an IP address so you can go to www.slashdot.org. In fact, I'm pretty sure MS/NT is just trying to catch up to what unix systems have offered for years. If we didn't have unix and had to depend solely on MS, imagine where the Internet would be today. But you probably think MS invented the Internet, don't you?
I seem to also recall that NT handles threads better and also multitasks better than Linux
I don't have any info on the threads, so please post some more information about NT vs Linux threading. As far as multitasking, on the same hardware with the same memory resources, this just ain't true. NT is a dog at multitasking compared to Linux. If you want to run more than a few apps/servers at the same time, better shell out some money for a huge memory upgrade. And even then, hope that one of the apps doesn't block the whole system waiting for some resource.
As you alluded to before, you can't remove the GUI from NT, but you can from Linux. You claim this is an unfair advantage. You're partially correct, it is an advantage, but it ain't unfair. Now maybe the NT GUI is what makes NT so much slower than Linux? Then remove the damn GUI! Oh wait, you can't. If this really is an unfair advantage, then instead of telling us that we should add a GUI to our Linux server, you should be complaining to MS to get rid of the GUI bloat on the NT servers. You wouldn't tell Michael Jordan that he had to play with one arm tied behind his back because it is unfair that the other players aren't as good?
plus NT security is way beyond Linux's how many NT exploits are there? no where near as many as Linux
Please stop, you're making my sides hurt. I'm not saying that Linux doesn't have exploits, but they don't stay around nearly as long as NT's. As for volume of exploits, you must not follow any of the NT bug tracking lists or sites on the Internet. It boggles the mind why anyone would even consider using NT for anything even remotely secure.
As the IS manager for a small school (in México), i'm pretty worried about the fact that every time MS launchs some new software i need to look for ways to upgrade my hardware to keep the pace and stay competitive against the bigger schools of may city. Two years ago i began to experiment with linux and found very little aplications for the kind of work we do: teaching people to use the computer as a tool for their diary job. Linux was, as far as i saw, a server and scientist OS.
Recently the things have changed and there are many office suites and very economic and powerful, so there are some reasons (economics apart) to change to Linux. Besides the server side of Linux for my intranet, now i can place it on the machines for the students and in the desktop of my office.
Oh! and thanks MS for being too lazy, the educational market _is_ the future (remember the first days of unix?), and, at least on my city, you can count with about 1300 potential customers less (in the current generation)
(sorry about my english;)
I checked out other stories on MSNBC, and every story about Microsoft was negative:
Microsoft trial judge loses patience
Hackers find Windows NT hole
MS squeezed PC makers to favor IE
trial coverage is pretty balanced
also, with all the Ziff-Davis stories, I wonder if te site should be called ZDNBC.
BUY A GUN. SHOOT YOUR BOSS! HE IS A SINNER! HE IS IN LEAUGE WITH SATAN! HE MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO CORUPPT THE INNOCENT WITH HIS VILE SATANIC VICES!
OBEY THE WORD OF GOD, MY SON, AND YOU SHALL FIND PARADISE!
Sigh...I'm an SA for a company we have an ancient Data General unix box, an a/s400, a linux box for web/mail service and 5 nt servers spread over three states. Don't even start that bull that you NT doesnt crash or need a restart once a week. I have all the NT boxes set to restart every week automagically and if on of them doesnt, it gets outta sync with the domain. I guess numbnutts who wrote the post im replying too doesnt have to explain to 50 users(who are 2/3 time zones ahead) first thing monday morning why the cant get their network resources and havent been able for HOURS. Must be nice being a consultant...no responsiblites. Since youre so good at bullshitting people and yourself you really should go into sales...you'll make more money.
Microsoft says: "where do you want to go today"
IT person says: "I'd like to be home in time for dinner"
As Linux user and active citizen in Our community, I often wonder why others are so focused on getting rid of MS.
:-)
;-)
We simply don't depend on them. Some would say that we only have reached the our current level because of MS and others (the competition, that is). I tend to say this is true: as long as they keep shooting themselves in their feet, we will prosper because of that
Most flamers flame MS because they, as almost all religious people do, need a model of explanation. Scape goat falls in this category too.
My thesis is that MS gets flamed simply because it's easy and some feels, for strange reasons, it's the right thing to do.
Then again: people like to watch Ricki Lake, Jerry Springer, read tabloids, watch sports and do other "collective intelligence decreasing activities". I don't say this is wrong. I just say that I don't participate...
I tend to agree with mr. Linus Torvalds when he says that "I don't think Microsoft is evil in itself; I just think they make really
crappy operating systems.".
My oppinion is that they are people as well. Be polite, reasonable and respectfull to them on every occasion.
This is Our way to do these things.
If people won't use Linux or the like, it will eventually become **their** problem.
Best regards,
Steen
PS
I signed up for a login, but never got a password... ("even tried multi")
hahahaha.. I suppose whoever wrote that mail did it to fire up those who don't recognize irony when they see it ;-) ;-)
I could probably pick it apart bit by bit, but I'm not falling for this, so nyah
That could be the only explanation for sneakily making Linux look good, even if it does look useful in the court case. Because Linux is the sure death of MS's control of the operating system. Not because Linux us such as great product, but because Linus represents OS technology as a public commodity.
...... isn't choice what it's all about?
Linux is not a product, per say. It is the publicly available, common core technology that can be, and is, being molded into OS's ranging from the super-computer (Beowulf) clusters to slimmed versions running on Pilots and matchbook sized web servers. The popular commercial distributions (Red Hat, Caldera, Suse, etc) are linux for the server computer (Web, printer, file, mail servers, fireboxs, etc). This is the OS model that has setoff the firestorm of industry players seeking a viable alternative to MS-NT in the enterprise market. And, of course, this is exactly where MS is most vulnerable right now.
However, none of this has anything to do with MS's monopoly on desktop cliants, and on standalone home computers of the consumer market.
That we will see towards the end of this year. It will be yet another molding of the Linux core into another distribution, another targeted OS product. It will look very much like Windows98, it will install and run all of your existing Windows programs, including MS Office. And it will be brought to you by Corel, with the blessing of OSS community.
There will be a considerable amount of bitching about native Linux apps being better, but hey
It's a matter of pride. Pride in work, and a fundamental respect for the profession and what computing means to the world. The dislike of Microsoft stems from a very real concern that technological progress is increasingly becoming the domain of only those who can afford the extremely costly membership dues.
In the free source world, code talks. Linux is written by people who solve the kind of problems you are talking about every single day, the only difference is that they do it with tools anyone can get and learn, not just those who happen to have the money to pay some jerk like you $100 an hour. In new-age lingo, it is a form of enlightenment. Those secretaries who don't understand the difference between "grep" and the "Find File" gui tool are only ignorant because "the man" has decided for them what is user friendly. An entire generation of poorly funded but extremely intelligent free software users are growing up now with a large superset of the skills needed to operate any Windows/Mac machine today, rest assured the notion of "user friendly" will change radically when they come into their own.
Here's a couple for you, Quote Boy:
"Spade! with which Wilkinson hath tilled his lands,
And shaped these pleasant walks by Emont's side,
Thou art a tool of honour in my hands;
I press thee, through the yielding soil, with pride." - William Wordsworth
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi
Uhm...the same sort of pro-Linux press coverage is appearing in Net technical journals elsewhere.
I suggest reading www.linuxtoday.org and hit the update button several times throughout the day.
If you seriously believe that all are controlled by M$ - then I suggest you've been watching the X-Files WAY to long...
Michael Haas - too lazy to log in.
Not stable, not scalable. ;-) Too bad the money lost due to down time was waaay over $20k.
You might save some money in the short run but you'll regret it in the long run. I read a story where some company picked $5000 Dell box with NT for a web server over $20000 Sun box. Well, after 3 month they ended up buying the sun box
also consider this:
scripting (what if you need to update 10000 user records? How long would it take with point-and-click?)
remote administration
check out www.unix-vs-nt.org
I saw at least one guy who signed "MSCE & CNE"
Just for the record, there's no such thing as a MS Certified Engineer. The correct term is "Microsoft Certified System Engineer" (MCSE).
How do I know this? I am one. I also support Linux, NetWare, Solaris, and other crap. I still get a chuckle when someone tells me that their studying for their "MSCE", or even worse, you see it on a resume.
Linux: 386DX/16M/500M/~$50
NT : Pentium/64M/1G/~$800
Does Microsoft really believe throwing more code and more hours of work at the problem are really going to solve anything?
I believe eventually Windows NT/2000/whatever will reach a critical mass and, like a supermassive star at the end of its lifespan, will collapse into a black hole - sucking all its apps into oblivion in the process.
That is the reason why my server rely on linux
"...It takes 8,000,000 lines of code to make Windows run, but only 8 to crash it."
#include
#include
int main() {
char *ram;
ram = realloc(NULL, 1024);
for( ; ; ) { ram = realloc(NULL, sizeof(ram) + 1024); ram = memset((void*)&ram, 0, sizeof(ram));}
return 0;
}
All those tools cost money for NT. They're commodities that come with a standard install with Linux.
If people can learn to drive a car, why don't they learn to use a real computer system, like UNIX? There's less effort involved, IMHO.
I seem to also recall that NT handles threads better and also multitasks better than Linux Ok I want you to try this. On you precious NT machine, format a floppy, copy to a zip drive, start decrypting some DES, and at the same time start playing an MP3 all on a Intel Pentium 233. If you were listening to Marry Poppins you might only get the supra and the doshes. Now do the same thing on linux, with or without X, and I bet even on a linux kernel WAY back from 1996 it would do a hell of a lot better job then the NT. You know what it is like to go from UNIX to NT? It is like going from a backco-operater to a leif blower. I was 11 years old in 1996 and I could recognized the superiority of linux. face the facts, Unix is a dead and dying OS it'll never be anything worth looking at Facts? You wouldn't know anything about facts, everything you wrote is either not true or incredibly twisted. The hell UNIX is a dead and dying OS, Linux is the fastest growing OS and has actually helped other UNIX OS's like Solaris, BSD, SCO, and others come to light. Even my 10 year old brother uses linux. Every server in my house runs a POSIX compliant OS. plus NT security is way beyond Linux's how many NT exploits are there? no where near as many as Linux I almost started crying when I read this! If you know what your doing you can turn rh into a very secure system. Sure there are lots of exploits, but they are simple to fix. NT on the other hand, is far beyond repair. It is so simple to break into a NT machine it isn't funny. First of all it is very simple to send a windows user a trojan hourse, which is not so simple on UNIX because when you use IRC or ICQ on UNIX, you don't have super-user access to the machine (or at least you shouldn't). Ever heard of M$ file and print sharing? Most crackers fall asleep cracking that. Lets compare cracking Post Office for NT to qmail for UNIX. Has qmail ever been cracked? No. Has Post Office ever been cracked? Yes. So to translate what I have said above into something you can understand, UNIX's security is far superior to NT's. You PC weenies should really try keeping stuff to yourself. --Sean
I constantly get NT admins who claim the same reliability that I have (I'm an MCSE and MCNE) with Novell and Linux.
Of course, they neglect to mention that they shut down their servers every week or month (gotta prevent those memory leaks that were present and KNOWN prior to SP4). How did YOU deal with them?
Oh, I see. Our definitions of 'stable' are quite different. I mean that I don't have to worry about the server running for a year or more. You mean that someone has to physically shut down the box to recover the memory that NT leaked. Don't try saying that it didn't leak. It's been documented in the service pack.
Now, once THAT issue is addressed, let's look at the others. I can make an NT box EXTREMELY stable (withing the rebooting guidelines mentioned above). What I CANNOT do is ENSURE that this same box will be stable AFTER the next service pack is installed. Or after the next Office upgrade is installed. Or after the next IE upgrade is forced upon me.
That is why I say NT is not stable. I've gone through these arguments too many times with too many clueless people (recently it was Fred Langa over at informationweek.com). You can make all the claims you want about how Linux will be less stable as it supports more functions. But the facts contradict you. Linux has not LOST stability in the progression from 1.0 to 2.2.0, has it? Yet it has GAINED numerous functions and support for varied peripherals.
Yet NT has LOST stability from 3.51 to 4.0.
Seems like you're a little to MS-centric. Look at what we EXPECT our Linux (and Novell) boxes to do and how often we EXPECT them to crash (never). Then compare that to how often you NEED to service the NT boxes under your control. Why don't you count when you have a client reboot their server, too?
Do you want to talk support? I have NEVER been told by Novell to re-install the OS. I have been told that MANY times by MS support.
Now you can talk about how MS support is farmed out to people who don't know the products.
But the situation doesn't change.
Can you guarantee that the Y2K patches you'll be installing on production NT boxes WON'T impact their operations?
:)
Didn't think so.
He could have entitled the article:
"THIS IS A TROLL"
and you all would have still replied to it. Suckers.
Are you serious? Is this your honest reply? Do you actually believe these things?
/. , quite contrary to this nationalist rantings are occurring on /. Do you understand the difference between the two?
/. as being okay because a large number of people including Rob, think they are okay and good (has Rob ever stated this or are you putting words in his mouth)? Is anything that a large number of people support right? A vast number of Germans supported the Nazis. Was this right? A vast number of Americans supported the Vietnam War. Was this right? Although you may be too young to realize it, nationalistic fervor led two the two world wars of this century and the millions slaughtered therein. A large number of people believing something does not make something right. In stating your case as such, you are identifying a large number of /. users as nationalist bigots, thereby undermining the credibility of /. and /. users on the whole. Is this your goal?
/. for the moderating of posts (and not just the mood and prejudice of the moderator at the present time.)
/. I obviously do so as AC. I can not lower my threshold this way. Even if I did, I would then have to go through the process of lowering my threshold, then log in every time I use the site. Why is my privacy important when it comes to companies like Intel or M$, but not /.? Also, why are there moderated posts rated so far in the negative numbers that no one in their right mind would lower their threshold so far? Also, is this process clear to a new user? Perhaps, a simplification of the process is in order, perhaps similar to the "switch to flat mode option" such as "switch to unmoderated option". And even this is not clearly evident to a new user. Is it easier for you to avoid such posts as "Mac Sux" or for the rest of us to have to log on and lower our thresholds to -20 to read something that we might find interesting but the moderator finds irrelavent?
/. is a public site run as an intellectual forum, if he openly invites people in to state their opinions, he should not moderate them when they do. If I allow you into my house to state your opinion, but I don't like it am I right to tell you that you can talk but only in the bathroom where no one can here you? If he wants to close down the site or make registration mandatory, that I agree is his right - and then I and many more people will stop visiting this site. I actually like /. and the open trade of opinions, I feel as if it would be a better site without the moderation - it is my attempt to improve the site. As for your opinion that I go elsewhere is in direct opposition to your previous statement telling me that you do not need control over other's property. You have just made the attempt to do so. Do you realize your contradiction?
/. while censorship is not.
First, nationalist rantings are not being debated on
Second, on the same point are you trying to defend the nationalistic rantings on
Since you did not agree with my original post, I changed it to suit your tastes. However, any sociologist or psychologist will tell you that the same hate and fear that flame nationalism also flame rascism. If there is nationalism residing on this site, you can be assured rascism is lurking underneath the surface. And to use the same logic as you, Are you an egg? This makes as much sense as you asking if I molest children. I made the original post based on what is and what is not censored on this site? That is, censorship related items are and nationalistic rantings are not. Once again if Rob does not want people to ask such
questions, he should not moderate as he does. As Rob, has unlimited power to censor my posts as he see fits, I will also assume a certain right to make provocative statements to draw people's attention to the fact that this is a moderated site. I will stop doing so when a. the moderation stops or b. there is a simpler, anonymous process to lower the threshold to see all posts despite their ranking and it is demonstrated that a common, fair policy exists on
Now back to the topic, you totally avoided any arguments as to free speech, so I will respond to what you you wrote. Telling me to lower my threshold is simply unacceptable, when I log on to
As for it being Rob's server and me being able to go elsewhere, this sounds suspiciously like the little kid saying if he can't play first base, he will take his ball and go home. It also sounds like those who out of ignorance say (And also repeated frequently during the Vietnam War) "If you don't love America, you can leave." We here in America, take free speech as a constitutional right. Our country has fought wars to ensure this right and other such rights. If Rob is to exist within this cultural frame and to be seen as a fair administator of this site, he should do his best to follow the rules of our society as a whole. If not, he brings himself into question.
It is obvious you have little concern for the truth or free speech.
You have already:
1. stated that nationalism rantings are a valid topic for
2. have made no valid arguments for moderation beyond "Rob can do what he wants, go away."
3. have totally avoided the issue of free speech (especially in regards to a site so concerned with free software)
You have spoken for Rob when he should have spoken for himself, and you have done a shabby job of it, at that.
Also, this is a thread about censorship not about Anonymous Cowards. Try to address the topic and my arguments and do less name calling. If you wish to address me by a name, try Ed. That is Mr. Ed to you, Slappy.
Steven,
I understand how you would like the story to only be voted a "7" if it is a great story.
I also understand why Linux advocates would vote "7" in any case. The top 10 vote list says, "Would you recommend this story to other viewers?" Certainly Linux users would highly recommend a story that casts Linux in a positive light. Quite frankly, I didn't read the whole MSNBC article, because I had seen it earlier on a different website (good article, by the way). I still voted it a "7" because I highly recommend the story.
As far as knocking down the ranking of other stories on MSNBC, that is a bit manipulative. (but it did appear to work, story now at #2)
mrlefty
(can't get a mailback regestration for some reason)
What's your point?
Windows95 and Windows NT were developed with the help of Unix Workstations. Hotmail (owned by Microsoft) is still run by Sun's even though they did try to convert. It's not like Microsoft itself isn't guilty of this. I would bet money that Microsoft uses Oracle to track their finances, I doubt if they use Access.
www.jokewallpaper.com
Though not nearly in the same league, Quake/Quake2 servers do the same thing.
.pak so NT only caches the smaller files and has a better chance of returning the resources.
The data (.pak) files where the maps, etc for the base game are 100MB+. Whenever the game loads a new map, NT tries to cache more of that 100MB+ file until it runs out of resources.
You have to extract all the files out of the
Folks,
;)
This is obviously an "NT Admin" with an MSCE. They are "special". They are Real Smart.
BWA-HA-HA-HA.
Ok, seriously. I've noticed that NT Admins are always very defensive and pouty. If YOU had to keep that POS running, and you knew there were better alternatives, you'd be that way too.
I always feel sorry for them. They strut and try to act like they know what they are doing. But face it, they don't know a router from a mouse usually - unless there is an icon for it under "Common Administrative Tasks"
Steve
In MS's limited way, you sort of can do this with roaming profiles. Of course, "your desktop" there is defined as, "All the icons you have" not the different window managers and all, Linux has.
2;)new pentium350 only 7,000$
You're not too far off. Where I work, we pay about $5000 for an IBM P2/400.
Wow, he even confused 'their' with 'there'. I guess it really *is* Rob!
Trouble!"
I stand corrected!
I had thought it meant (even prior to its first release) as: N(ot) T(here) (Yet).
I went into this thread so I could mention the people who were thinking about computers on every desk and a global network that would connect them. I guess mdxi got there first.
*But* you shouldn't pigeonhole this latest wave of marketroid hype and asian teen porn as being entirely bad. We do have computers on practically every desk, and thanks to many, many different individuals and companies, including people as revered as lick and bob taylor to people/companies as universally slammed as gates and AOL.
As for signal/noise ratios... that's a function of the people, not the technology. Slashdot has a sometimes poor ratio itself, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Without Microsoft, you're right, the internet would probably still be a place of intelligent discourse, but, the number of people using it would be far fewer. I think that was a good tradeoff.
Can you say "syndrop?"
Mmmm, FUD.
Shutting up now, sir.
"Complete package" like Web server, six different editors...
Apache::ASP, perhaps.
New technology...macro viruses, you mean?
Gold Bar, WA...hmm, 36 miles from Redmond...
"Lazy programmer's version" meaning that you don't have to pay $600 for the compiler?
Yes, 400-1400 users are just so easy to simulate in a lab environment.
Posted by AnnoyingMouseCoward:
Nope, at least not yet ( coming soon, unfortunatly ).
However, I have pushed Win3.1/Win95 ( read: lose3.1/lose95 ) memory with the same effect.
From lose95 onwards, Loseows is supposed to include a virtual memory manager with garbage collection when your apps terminate ( bwahahaha! - yes, this is normally in capitals to express humor. Lowercase is used to express borebom. ).
In actual fact, this does not appear to be the case. Loseows95 and higher doesn't clean up all un-allocated resources at program termination. The result is a steady "leak" of system resouces until the machine crashes. Has anybody else had this problem?
Note : my own area of experience is in data-communications ( which push Loseows to the limit ). Is there a problem in that stupid damn "OpenComm()" command that's supposed to set up a send/recieve queue that anyone else has hit? The memory allocated is supposed to be freed when you issue "CloseComm()", but I have my doubts on that point.
Posted by AnnoyingMouseCoward:
Actually, no. As someone who has previously e-mailed Rob Malda over the issue of censorship, I can categorically state that
1). If you have a genuine grip and you are prepared to point it out to Rob, he will normally fix it.
2). If your just a lame AC who doesn't have the conviction to put your name to your words, he will ignore you.
Grow up *jerk*. If you don't have the guts to put your name to your words, then your just whining. Get a valid nick and maybe then we might pay attention to you ( but not before then ).
Posted by AnnoyingMouseCoward:
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
You poor idiot. You mean you can actually stomach all that stupid SQLConnect() and SQLSetColumns() lameness without throwing up?
Gosh dude, you really aught to apply to "Madam Toni's house of Discipline and Bondage" for a discount rate. Your sure deserve it! If nothing else, youll get a *free* spanking!
As to your post "disappearing", not likely. It's just too funny for the moderators to do that. If you want to go through life with a sign over your head that says "I'm a Masocist, please hit me!", well, you asked for it, you got it.
Ever tried images.altavista.com?
Try searching for say, "Lizard" then click on one of the images, and see MS IIS choke!
J.
ahem... sorry for the shouting.
If you've got an idiot non-technical boss telling you what technology to use, get another job!
There are plenty if IT jobs where you don't have to put up with this BS. There's no excuse for whining about something so easily fixed. Someday, the corporate world will recognize that they need to trust good it professionals, rather than hiring the same old point-click-and-reboot joe losers.
I find it amusing that this article was served by an ASP.
"YOUR server should run Linux!" they say. Notice that they make no claims about their own servers.
--
--
I noticed
It's getting about time to leave everywhere
So we reprint an article from zd, then claim that this is proof that linux is a threat to close off our case. I'm curious how different the press would be without that case going on. The question is, how to we take advantage of this. I'm hoping for lots of new code, better installs, and a more unified interface. Of course all of this will happen, but it needs to happen before the anti-publicity hits (bound to happen after the case is over and after lots of inexperienced people with a large voice discover they don't understand it).
Actually wouldn't it be "daemon"? Since, in the original posters mind, Rob is forever lurking in the background waiting to censor anything that AC's post.
Actually, I think we could usa a bit *more* moderation here. I hate wading through pages and pages of off-topic flamewars and rantings.
Of course, that includes this post doesn't it? Doh! Please moderate this post too, Rob. =)
1) MSNBC posting a ZDNet article that
2) We've seen 3 times now (although it IS a good article), which
3) is very good for Linux.
This article has actually been posted here on Slashdot before, and was originally written something like a month or more ago.
However, it is as true now as it was then, and perhaps even more so, with the 2.2.x kernel release. Even if it's not new news, it being posted on the front of MSNBC's tech section is new. And very, very good. Linux is the way of the future.
-- Toph
"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you. Then you win." - Gandhi
Topher
I don't know if I am too critical but I am really sick of reading news articles that make different distributions seem like completly different operating systems. No matter the distribution you use you can get/use any GUI, database, office product, web browser/server, devel tools.
Linux will run on (almost) anything. Can't we for once see a news site have an article that doesn't take sides on a distribution. Once you get past the package management, its *ALL* the same damn thing!
The only reason MSNBC has that article on their news site is to try and make the DoJ/Judge think they don't have a monopoly. It would be better for the DoJ/Judge to drop the case and let nature (Linux, BSD, SUN, IBM, etc) take care of itself.
Lastly why do they always have to inflate the minimum requirements to run Linux? Linux runs on my 386SX with 2mb ram, no harddrive, no video card or serial ports. And every damned news site always says 'Minimum requirement: 386DX 16 MB ram'!
Okay enought ranting from me, someone else?
1000 points for putting the image of Snoopy flying around on his doghouse. Nice relief from the monotany of work.
I am one exam away from becoming a mcse and these test have questions that have nothing to do with real world situations but rather insignificant phrases memorized int he NT server resource kit or silly word games. The test are very hard and now are adaptive, meaning that they test only asks you questions you can't answer. For some reason ms thinks this makes better support professionals. I am retakind the internet informaiton server exam v.4 and it is rediculous. They judge the test by how many mouse clicks I make in the mmc or "microsoft managemnet console". I was even asked to create a virtual directory and was not told what to name it (one character off or mouse click and oops its WRONG AND YOU DON"T KNOW IT!). I also have to pass 5 other exams for a total of six to even become an mcse. ITs a 6 month thing. With novel its jsut 3 exams and I think its onyl 2 with linux but I could be wrong.
If thats not even more rediculous microsoft wants to make the minimum requirements for an mcse up to 9 exams and expect the students to pay up to 12,000-16,000$ to take classes and 900 for all the exams. I want to shoot them! Microsoft thinks it can do whatever it likes just because thewy claim to own 80% of the server market. They may not treat us like rats. I want to administer and support computers and not go back to a university type class so I can learn how many mouse clicks or answer microsoft specific questions.
"Never stick an electrical appliance down your pants." -Tim Allen
I think slashdot serves up a half million pages a day to what, 50k, 100k (please up the number if i'm wrong :) users with a bloody freakin lot of perl and generated stuff.
On about the same hardware AFAIK.
And you can set up a site w/MySQL and SlashEngine pretty quick. A friend of mine once made a presentation on linux to a bunch of execs. He took a bare machine and had a web server up and running in 5 minutes flat.
I saw at least one guy who signed "MSCE & CNE"
:)
That's "MicroSoft Certefied Engineer & Certified NetWare Engineer".
Linux actively destroys the diplomas this guy spent good money to buy. That wasn't very nice now was it
-------------------
SCORES
-------------------
The Server:
Linux 1 NT 0
coming soon to pay per view:
THE DESKTOP
can MS's interface from 1995 stand up to the latest from all over the world? Can the debate between KDE and GNOME finally solve the real question: Which is better, C or C++? What the hell crazy name will Miguel come up with for GNOME 1.0?
Frankly i can't decide, i like them both. I figure I'll make a final decision on what's most key: games and coolness of themes.
> Without M$ "in-your-face" marketing this would
> not have happend. The benefits of this
> proliferation are enormus (and I don't have
> either the time or space here to count them
> all). I'm going to sum it up in one word.
> Internet. Without ready access to computers that
> are "user friendly" (sorry for the buzz word!!!)
> we don't get all this communications stuff that
> makes up the "Information Age".
No internet without Microsoft, eh? I think not. Unix (and its precursors) built the internet starting in the late 1950s. Microsoft didn't even catch on until a few years ago, they were too busy working on "Bob" because computers still weren't stupid enough for them. Hundreds of thousands of morons using IE to download asian teen porn did not create "all this communications stuff that makes up the Information Age".
However, without Microsoft, the internet *would* probably still be a place of intelligent discourse and high signal/noise ratios.
*sigh*
--
Posted with Mozilla
Someone mentioned not running X in ZDNet's discussion, too. I don't understand what the complaint is. You're comparing them under real-life conditions, and Linux servers rarely run X in real-life conditions. OTOH, you can't turn off NT's graphics under real-life situations.
Come on, give me a break NT whomps on Linux so bad it's not even funny I remember running Linux way back in 96 and it was crap I have a hard time believing it's improved much since then besides, that test was run with the Linux boxes not running X, so of course that helped speed up performance DUH!
This is actually funny. In a sick, sad sorta way. You "remember Linux "way back" in 96" eh? Hmm, you don't think that with 3 years and...oh a couple hundred thousand hours of coding and debuggin it's gotten BETTER?
Unlike NT (Never Trustworthy), Linux has been CONSTANTLY under revision. There isn't a day that goes by that new code is added to the Linux legacy.
Unlike you, many of us don't REQUIRE a fulltime dummified P&C interface. And if turning it off helps improve performance of the machine while I'm not working on it, or even if I am, I'm ALL FOR IT. Pointing it out as a "cheat" is idiotic. It's a feature of the OS. The GUI is merely an app run on the system, not the system itself. Inevitably this IS going to mean more speed for the CLI. You're just peeved because you cannot turn off your butt-ugly NT interface.
Face the facts, Unix is a dead and dying OS it'll never be anything worth looking at besides, the world uses NT so until Linux gets some good apps that will be compatable with NT's...forget it
Unixen have been getting proclaimed "dead and dying" for YEARS. MS declared it so at one time. Now they're hustling to get NT certified as Unix. I'll believe Unix/Linux dead when I see it. Not because some kid who has trouble understanding what to do at a DOS prompt says so.
The world uses NT? Even "I" am not THAT widely travelled that I can make that claim! Do a check of how many of the webservers on the internet are using some form of Apache or CERN or NCSA or other unixen-based webservers. The number FAR exceeds the pitiful market share that NT holds.
I seem to also recall that NT handles threads better and also multitasks better than Linux plus NT security is way beyond Linux's how many NT exploits are there? no where near as many as Linux
You SEEM to recall? Or you DO recall? Just because some mental defective's mind barfs out pseudofacts doesn't mean it's so. Do some RESEARCH and find out. Also, threading, while a nice addition, isn't necessary to achieve peak performance in Linux. You saw it for yourself in an article posted on a site owned by MS itself. Linux as a server runs at LEAST 200% better than an equivallent (what a misnomer) NT machine. Also, Linux can wring every last ounce of performance out of a machine that would otherwise choke on NT.
Nowhere near as many NT exploits? MAYBE. Last time I checked the Symantec Antivirus Research Site there were several tens of THOUSANDS of bugs, exploits, and virii available to foul an already foul operating system.
In addition how many of the exploits in NT are fixed within 24-48 HOURS of notice. DAMN FEW (read ALMOST NONE). How many are fixed within a week? A month? A year?
How many of them are just hushed up in hopes that nobody finds them? Try MOST.
Now let's see. How is NT superior to Unixen?
You know? You're right. NT MUST be superior.
.....Yeah, and Bill Gates might fly if we chucked him off the highest building we could find near Redmond.
geez, next you'll be arguing MacOS is gonna steal back it's share of the market
We're talking facts here. Not fantasies.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Man, this has been posted to /. like three times, I guess due to it's being carried by three different web sites. But, it's a good article.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Just take "useable" from "unstable" and "NT" is what is leftover
-- heard somewhere on usenet
support gun control: take guns from cops
heh, I wrote that to be a devil's advocate. I must admit that if you can't install linux then you have no business being a net admin. But sometimes you want the same look-and-feel no matter where you go. That's why many are standardizing on MS products.
---
don't refer to the gimp and NT in the same sentence!
---
Someone besides me please check this page
http://www.msnbc.com/news/195260.asp
and tell me if box halfway down the page isn't using pictures of Tux as bullets.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Point #1:
I want a file/print server.
Point #2:
Ah yes. That's good. Get your client to pay out the ass for a crappy server OS. Then, after you're gone, they have problems and come crying to you. Smart move. I hope it makes you look good in the eyes of your contractors and not like someone who's trying to scam them.
Point #3:
Use PHP. It is flat out better than ASP. And since your intelligence is only "marginal", you could even start out with the ASP2PHP converter.
Point #4:
A machine w/ a P6-200 and 96MB of RAM using Linux 2.2.2, Apache & mod_php, and the same SQL server setup you've described was set up by your most humble narrator in less than a day for a fraction of the cost for my employer.
Point #5:
They pay you too much.
Have a nice day.
--Simon Breakwater
A hacker is a machine for turning caffeine into code.
-- A hacker is a machine for turning caffeine into code. G: GU d-(--) s:- a--- C++++(++)$ UL++(+++) P+(++) L++(+++)
...Nice Try.
--
This signature left intentionally blank.
I only dabble with web servers so I can't speak with a great deal of knowledge on the subject. I have seen a plenty of web sites created with PHP, mod_perl and Zope that seem pretty cool, although it may have taken longer for them to be developed, I don't know. But IBM is porting Web Sphere to Linux, a port of Cold Fusion is on the way and other vendors are porting tools to Linux practically everyday now. Therefore, my second point is that as far as RAD development is concerned, I don't imagine that NT will have much of an advantage in the future, assuming that it has an advantage now.
The mere fact that you can run a Linux without a GUI gives a major performance boost as a server. Although I only dabble with web servers, I know operating systems. I started my career supporting a proprietary, multitasking operating system (CTOS) in the early 80s. I've written transport layers on top of DOS, multithreading toolkits for DOS and Windows 3.1 and device drivers for ISC Unix, Linux and (shudder) NT. I can say without any reservation that NT is incredibly inefficient. The number of "objects" that you need to pass around in a device driver is absurd, not to mention all the painful abstractions and IRQ layers that you need to worry about. The funny aspect is that all the inefficiencies do nothing to improve the stability of the OS. As a matter of fact, a bug in a device driver is guaranteed to BSOD the system. In Linux, there is at least a chance that a bad sound driver won't crash the entire system. Point number three, a Linux server will almost always be faster and more stable than an NT server.
Now although you set up NT boxes for your clients that "never crash", what do you do something does go wrong? I'm assuming it's the client's fault, maybe they installed the latest Internet Explorer service pack and now their server is unstable (this really happened to me). For an NT machine, you drive to the client site and start mucking in the registry, checking DLL versions and pointing and clicking the night away. If they don't have a good disaster recover mechanism in place (including backing up the registry), you back up your software, format the hard drive, and reinstall everything from the ground up. What do you do with a Linux box? Well first of all, the latest web browser won't make a Linux server unstable (it may crash X, but it won't crash the system). But things can go wrong and when they do, you secure shell in, and go through a similar (but in my opinion, less painful) process. You can even reboot using a different kernel if you need to. All the while you're in your pajamas listening to your favorite CDs. Only if a Linux server is completely hosed do you need to be physically present. So the fourth point is that Linux is easier to support.
Finally, scalability. If the customer's machine is under powered and needs to be upgraded, Linux scales better. On Alpha and UltraSparc hardware, Linux is 64-bit. IBM will be supporting Linux on RS/6000s in the very near future. Besides that, any solution you develop for Linux will easily port to any UNIX out there in case they really need a Sun Enterprise server with a ridiculous number of processors or an HP 9000. The customer with the NT solution is screwed until Merced and NT 6.0 (2005?) ship. Trust me, they won't be happy. Point five and game goes to Linux.
Can you say Freedom? I hope you can.
P.S. I just reread this and it seems a bit pompous. I didn't mean it to be, it must be that I watched "Pride and Prejudice" last night. Oh well, I'm too lazy to rewrite it.
--
This signature left intentionally blank.
... the guy with the hotmail email address saying how much Linux sucks. I thought Hotmail was running on Linux... at least before Micro$oft bought it? Maybe not. Anyone know?
I seem to remember someone here posting that his Linux machine's uptime exceeded the Windows NT 4 release date.. ie, at the time of the posting, his Linux machine had been running since before NT4 hit the market..
If that aint customer satisfaction, I dunno what is.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
Has it been such a secret that Linux is a powerful server? That NT is inferior to Linux? No.
I think it was the second Halloween document that tried to compare Linux to other Unixes and block it off as Merely a server OS, i.e. strictly not for the Desktop.
MS could be trying to hype the server side of Linux to keep it from the desktop.
"Servers are big and scary; Windows isn't."
..Yeah, right.
NT == Neandarthal Technology
I saw this great homepage once, linked off
of the window manager's page (http://www.plig.org/xwinman/). It was an enlightenment screen shot, in one of the windows there was a graphical image of what (at first) looked like the NT logo, with that Redmond 95 font and the crossed wires and all. But upon closer inspection, there were two cavemen trying to start a fire.
...And I can't find the link anymore. I'm so sad.
-- If you met me, you probably wouldn't remember me. I'm pretty hard to remember.
make, gdb, gcc, profile, etc., and a good shell are much more flexible, especially for large projects. It should be taught in school. :^D
gvim is a very nice text editor if you take the time to learn it... all Linux really needs is time for the toolkits to develop good GUI-building apps and a few good books to be written and real programmers will start to realize what a clean and efficient tool you have, especially when you have access to ALL the code
.
Can you supply concrete documentation on any of this, or is this just a 1:00am thing?
> 3) Patent every bit of functionality out from under it (this kills all unix as a side effect).
Not like Unix OS's haven't accrued hundreds of patents. Hell, NT probably "violates" some. Good for MS if they do, software patents suck.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I rather imagine a lot of your work indeed involves going ON-SITE to fix NT servers because they have no remote accessability without "Remote Admin by SchmoeCorp" that only works with SchmoeCorp's client of course, and of course has to be installed physically, creating a nice bootstrap problem.
It *IS* the tools that suck. NT on the whole is probably comparable with many commercial Unixen, but when you have to use blunt tools like User Manager and Server Manager, or when you have to go moving around the whole registry then remotely load a corrupted hive (which NT does its damndest to make inconvenient), that you really start itching to put a bullet through the thing.
What is it about NT that makes otherwise perfectly good SA's so incompetent that they can't keep it running? Some kinda distortion vortex?
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
> (1) Telnet tools for adminning NT (add-on).
Add on. And laughably unstable. It comes with warnings plastered all over it telling you how beta it is. God forbid they should try sshd. Fact: I cannot reinstall an NT machine over the network and telnet in to reconfigure it. This is SOP where I work, where we reinstall regularly because it guarantees standard configuration (every bit of user data is on NFS servers -- yes I hate NFS too)
> (2) Web based tools for adminning NT (built-in).
Not my area. I'm guessing regedit isn't one of those though. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> (3) Windows-based remote tools for adminning NT.
Unbundled. Defeats the purpose of standard admin tools.
> I'm just saying that I personally don't have as much pain with NT as you all have. I don't know why.
You've never had to limp over to the server room on a sprained ankle and bruised kneecap again and again to reboot the server because el bossman doesn't spring for remote admin tools? Remember this "it works out of the box, nothing extra needed" mentality is what sells NT in the first place, so most installations do NOT have all these wonderful third party tools. Or in the case of the telnetd, they're simply too unstable.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Microsoft couldn't begin to match something like slashdot and a userbase so fanatically loyal it makes Apple look mild. Many of the flamers here will grow up and settle down, but they'll *still* be loyal to Linux. Linux gets so much press coverage, one issue of Sun Weekly had more articles on Linux than Sun. If that's not visibility and mindshare, I don't know what is.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
WinCE is correctly pronounced WINCE. Just thought you should know that. (I got peals of laughter calling it "wince" in the office once, but I always pronounce acronyms as a word so it seemed obvious to me....)
;)
Aptly named too.
_Deirdre
I guess I'm just stupid
Yes, you are.
Good whore makes more per hour then you do.
Fucking with ugly, smelly drag dealers.
Ability to make money off something does not imply it is a good technology.
When Linux wins, you will be doing 10 projects per month.
Of course you are just bragging. Stupid troll.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
Our group converted to Linux from NT. How would they reverse it?
Ahh, why I bother to answer to morons.
Slow day
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
Send me the design spec
Send you? What's your E-mail? Where did you install your bug-free solutions? Are you sure they will just upgrade your solution to Win2K and it will just work? Liar. Moron.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
-- Maybe you forgot it is case sensitive?
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
no what? You did not forget, or it is not case sensitive.. ;( )
Man, you have too much free time I see, for all your bragging. (well, I have an excuse, my code is running in the background... third month of this debugging hell
BTW, my NT boxes do not crush as well. Besides that horrible memory leak in SP4, but it was fixed, thank you MS. Until users decide to go and add/change anything. Then there applications screw up system libraries all over the place - and there is no fucking way, short of a clean uninstall/reinstall to fix the mess. Then it works again tip top, indeed. Sheesh. Ease of use, mother fuckers. Yeah, once my thesis is over I can go and earn some money for what I am volunteered here to do...(NT desktop and application support for a research group) - if I can not find a respectable job of course.. People pay for this crap. It is still crap.
You asked for a database application example that NT cannot handle. Take a look at our stuff. (I am not with this directly, my friends are). If you say NT can handle that in any form - you are a bloody liar, who have no clue what he is talking about. Of course Linux is far from it as well, Solaris is used on mainframe level hardware. But Linux makes a good client.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
no what? You did not forget, or it is not case sensitive.. ;( )
Man, you have too much free time I see, for all your bragging. (well, I have an excuse, my code is running in the background... third month of this debugging hell
BTW, my NT boxes do not crush as well. Besides that horrible memory leak in SP4, but it was fixed, thank you MS. Until users decide to go and add/change anything. Then there applications screw up system libraries all over the place - and there is no fucking way, short of a clean uninstall/reinstall to fix the mess. Then it works again tip top, indeed. Sheesh. Ease of use, mother fuckers. Yeah, once my thesis is over I can go and earn some money for what I am volunteered here to do...(NT desktop and application support for a research group) - if I can not find a respectable job of course.. People pay for this crap. It is still crap.
You asked for a database application example that NT cannot handle. Take a look at our stuff. (I am not with this directly, my friends are). If you say NT can handle that in any form - you are a bloody liar, who have no clue what he is talking about. Of course Linux is far from it as well, Solaris is used on mainframe level hardware. But Linux makes a good client.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
You're being paranoid. I've been stomping on Microsoft products, when they deserve it, and praising non-Microsoft products, when they deserve it, for more than decade in the Ziff mags and other places.
Sometimes Microsoft does something right--sue me I haven't seen anything in the same time zone as PowerPoint in years and although I keep trying the alternatives I always find Excel winning me back. But, when it comes to operating system fundamentals, give me Linux or BSD/OS any day of the week.
Linux is getting solid praise in my book because it deserves it and that's all there is to it. Fair warning, if things start going wrong, we'll report that too.
Steven, Senior Technology Editor, Sm@rt Reseller
>> next you'll be arguing MacOS is gonna steal back it's share of the market
Check out the Apple sales numbers lately?
The Mac is back.
Steven, Senior Technology Editor, Sm@rt Reseller
Vote high for the story just to make it #1. If you think it's a great story, that's wonderful, if you don't, don't give it a 7.
Thank you. The author.
Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols
Senior Technology Editor, Sm@rt Reseller
http://www.zdnet.com/sr
...why zdnet is suddenly running "isn't linux cool" articles? Is it just me, or do they seem to have suddenly 'changed' their minds about a lot of this stuff? Could it be that microsoft had a little 'chat' with them and suggested it might simply be time to start painting 'that other OS' as a serious contender until the DOJ trial is over?
Hopefully, I'm just being paranoid...
CraigL->Thx();
Be Developer ID: 5852
I had this vision...
The 800 lb ( 360 kg ) gorilla perched on top of a building, with little biplanes flying around shooting at it. The likes of Linus and Alan at the stick, and hell, Snoopy ( aka the Red Baron ) too. All shooting at it with their latest 2.2 super-lazer-blasters. The gorilla swinging wildly, in all directions obviously dazed and stunned by the suddennes and fericity of the attack. And then, in the middle of a swing its eyes suddenly flash blue and the other arm forgets to hold on.... down it falls off the Empire State building...
CraigL->Thx();
Be Developer ID: 5852
I used to work in an industry that pushed computers to their limits- - Geographical Information Systems. The demands of processing spatial datasets are incredible in terms of memory, disk and CPU usage. We're talking about trying to analyse datasets in the order of 100MB+.
My experiences with NT4 sp3 have been largely negative. While the Intel CPUs make light work of computation, if the application uses too much virtual memory the operating system goes into a kind of "seizure mode", even when the application is closed. It seldom recovers necessitating a reboot. I've observed this phenomenon with quite a few NT4 machines. On occasion, running out of VM will crash the machine entirely. I don't understand why closing an application shouldn't cause it's resources to be realeased fairly quickly in NT. I certainly never had this sort of problem running the same software, doing the same sorts of tasks on Solaris and Digital UNIX boxes.
The machines were (in those days, top-spec) IBM things with Pentium Pro 200, 128MB RAM and SCSI hard disks.
And another thing, try running a few Notepad, Calculator or Wordpad processes (say, 2 of each). These are seemingly light weight apps. Now, look at the task manager.
These are just a user's observations who hasn't looked at the technical design of NT's memory manager - just used it, hard. And, yes, the cost advantage of choosing Wintel for our new machines was hard to argue especially as the rest of the office was a Wintel environment with a peanut sys admin. Sad, really.
-t.
GNU Service Pack. I like that. I should install the GNU service pack on our systems at school. We are running a poorly configured netware server. Our "admin" doesn't know shit for netware and refuses to learn because "netware is dead". He's waiting till nt5/doze2000/whatever comes out because it will have disk quota support. I've tried to tell him 5000 times that Linux uses resources more effeciently; that samba runs faster than NT; that it does disk quotas NOW. Of course he's in the process of getting his MCSE and refuses to admit that NT is anything less than great. Actually now he will admit nt4 sucks rocks, but that's only cuz nt5 "is right around the corner." It's really sad to see such alegience to an OS that is made by a company that has no alegience to it's customers. What was really funny was to see him coming to me when he needed some email accounts setup. He didn't have m$ exchange server (or whatever it is) setup and he needed them done that day. In about 15 minutes i had created the accounts on the linux server I run and everyone was happy. Oh well, atleast it's nice to know that the revolution is taking place and that it WILL be televised.
-matt
This is hilarious. Whether MSNBS says
Linux can compete or not, it is bad for
Microsoft. After MS paid $$$ to make Linux
look like competition, MSNBC wants to do
something nice for them and stabs them
in the back instead. These are funny times.
We geeks love Linux so much and revel in bashing Microsoft --- all the while this activity is creating what MS wants to see. With IBM, HP, Oracle and all the big boys jumping on the bandwagon, the only thing left for MS to sway is the press. Once the press is swayed (really it's there now) the public will once again side with Microsoft.
I don't find it coincidence that these articles appear on news orginazations such as MSNBC. If Linux were really a threat, those articles would never get posted. A true threat would do more damage to the business. (would you talk yourself OUT of a dineer date with a pretty girl by telling her about some guy over in the corner?) As it is.....MS can post them and say "see...we are being objective....we report favorably on the competition when it warranted". Key word here is competition. Was competition in any articles prior to the Halloween document?
Rant over...hehe
Hotmail runs a combination of Solaris and FreeBSD. They attempted a (mandated by MS) switch to NT soon after they were bought out by MS. After a couple of days of problems, and despite the best efforts of both the Hotmail and MS senior staffs, they switched back to Solaris and FreeBSD and have not attempted a switch again. This was a major black mark on MS's records, and one that has come back to haunt them every time they want to play in the enterprise world. NT just isn't capable of handling high demand, high volume applications. Worse than that, it appears that the reason why is due to fundamental design flaws down to the lowest levels of the kernel design.
NT5/W2K is supposed to be an almost complete rewrite, so it may improve a little, but I personally find it hard to believe that they can overcome NT's scalability and performance problems without seriously compromising backward compatibility with previous versions.
If MS is trying to prove that they don't have a monopoly by boosting the image of the competetion (I even read a positive article about Boies on Slate.com!), they're doing a very bad job. No one has ever suggested that Microsoft has a monopoly in the server market. It's the desktop market that matters, and I haven't seen any mainstream media (especially ones owned by MS) saying that Linux is a worthwhile desktop OS replacement.
No, there's no censorship, just moderation. Slashdot has the best "censorship" system I've ever seen. If a moderator dislikes a post, he/she (well, he) makes it have a lower score. Thus you have to lower your threshold to see it. If you want, permanently set your threshold to -2 and you'll see it all. I just checked at -2 to see what you guys were complaining about, and the post was still there, for people like me, but it and the "1st post" post were downgraded, so that I didn't have to wade through them on my way to real, intelligent discussion. I really appreciate it. Remember, it's not censorship if you can still see it!
Good points. I was about to say that tech people would be the market for NT, not Joe User, but your example of your boss corrected me. But Microsofct isn't on trial for a server monopoly, becuase they don't have one. I'd be mighty impressed if they're preemptively boosting competitors for a trial they might face 5 years down the road!
Well, from what I remember, Mac OSX will pretty much be a "Unix" compatible machine, it will be incorporating a lot of the NeXT technologies, with the Mac OS GUI running on top of a new kernal (based on Mach like NeXTStep?).
I am not sure of the details, but from what I recall reading about Apple's plans, within a year or so their OS will be very much Unix like, albiet with a Mac GUI sitting on top of it.
What I suspect this means is that for most Mac users they will notice little difference, apart from much better multiprocessing, but if you need it (like on a server) much of the unix like functions will be there (perhaps even a command line?)
-- Join us in Chicago May 1-4th for MeshForum -- writer, historian, tech geek, entrepreneur, internet junky since '91 --
...it is easy enough for the common "end user". That and the apps have to have been rubbed in their face. Unfortunatly "easy enough" is the cause of M$ stuff being bloatware.
And as easy as it is to slam Gates/Microsoft I respect 2 things about it.
#1) Gates had a vision of a computer in every home. Without M$ "in-your-face" marketing this would not have happend. The benefits of this proliferation are enormus (and I don't have either the time or space here to count them all). I'm going to sum it up in one word. Internet. Without ready access to computers that are "user friendly" (sorry for the buzz word!!!) we don't get all this communications stuff that makes up the "Information Age".
#2) Gates has put the monopoly power of M$ to good use at least once. He has forced hardware standardization on some parts of the computer industry. And frankly, if I didn't want to go with standardized hardware I'd have gotten an Amiga in '91 instead of a clone.
(Disclaimer: I am NOT a Microsheep) Do I hope that the DOJ trial breaks or regulates M$? You bet I do!!! IMHO the best possible result is for M$'s OS division to be split into a different company than the HW and Apps divisions.
My point in all the above is that Linux might become a mainstream server in the readily forseeable future, but unless it takes on some of the attributes of Windoze it will probably never make it to mainstream desktops.
Dissenting opinions welcome!
David
"Like fire and fusion, government is a dangerous servant and a terrible master."~RAH
Netcraft says Hotmail is running FreeBSD.
cpeterso
I'm assuming this is a sick joke, NT could wish it was half as Linux. Obviously you havn't checked it out lately to see what an awesome OS it is..
First of all, who only wants a file and print
server? Second, I don't know why I'm able to
set up NT boxes for clients that never crash
and never bottleneck. I don't know why I'm able
to write Active Server Pages applications
running against SQL server that support 400
simultaneous users on a Pentium II/300 with
128 megs of ram. I don't know why I'm able to
start-to-finish 5 of these projects every month.
I don't know why someone of marginal intelligence
such as myself is able to charge $100 an hour
to do this. I guess I'm just stupid.
Can you say RAD people? I know that you can.
Yes, a good portion of my money is earned by going around and fixing crashed NT servers and putting out other fires. Other people's fires, not mine. The stuff I write, the servers I install, do not break. I'm starting to understand more and more the "Linux complaint." You guys are not upset at Microsoft technology per se. You're upset at poor execution of computer science techniques.
..........
/etc/log and chmod -r a3.log, and you won't have a problem. Okay boss, now you just have to remember to grep the quicken file using \n as the third replacable parameter..."
You express frustration at Microsoft because YOU and YOU alone have had difficulty in getting it to operate without crashing. How much luck do you think you would have had with Linux with no help from the community?
I've been working professionally with Windows NT since version 3.1, I started in 1993. I quit having the kinds of problems you guys are having when version 3.5 "Daytona" came out. Daytona was the same core technology as 4.0 without the 95 user interface. 4.0 suffered a stability problem, in that it took the general vendor population 2 years to write bug free drivers.
It has *always* been possible to have a crash-free NT environment if you have good drivers. It has *never* been possible to avoid a BSOD with crappy drivers.
The one design goal that NT strives for, and beats linux in, is usability by the general public, not just us geeks. See, guys, there's this strange beast called Business. Business, insanely, wants to retain the maximum value in their previous investments (call 'em nutty).
Consider this: Client comes to you and says they want a super-cool way-new ultra-sophisticated app, oh, and by the way, can you make it work seamlessly with the Novell 3 and 4 servers, oh, and can you have the data be accessible by the boss who likes to use Quicken, oh, and can you pull the data file off the mainframe, oh, and are my secretaries gonna have to ask me 95,000 questions about how to use the mouse and launch programs, and oh,
You say, "sure boss. Lemme just fetch Linux, and the mainframe access program written by Joe Shmega at U. Berkeley, and the Quicken Conversion program maintained by Bill Frickenfrack out of Stockholm, and the Novell access program written by the Cult of the Dead Skunk. Okay secrataries, now remember, when the log device grows to maximum, start a console and go to
It' just ain't gonna happen. Go try it.
(1) Linux will start to win in an economic sense when/if they start bringing this wonderful awesome stability down to the point where the secretaries and the pointy-haired bosses can understand it, or at least think they can.
(2) Once Linux tries to achieve this goal, they're gonna hit the same bug/bloat/goofiness wall that Microsoft has. Contrary to your 9000-pound brains, it is *harder* to write easier-to-use software for us metric morons than it is to write it for yourself, the genius.
Now, ain't a thing inherently wrong with Linux. I just want you guys to recognize ain't a thing inherently wrong with Microsoft programs. There is *everything* wrong with poor usage of any tool. If you guys would spent 10% the energy bitching at piss-poor PEOPLE instead of lashing out at something that just happened to give YOU trouble, things would get better.
-
"A poor craftsman blames the tools."
-
"A man says to the universe, 'Sir, I exist!'
The Universe replies, 'I am aware of that fact.'
'However, it has not instilled in me a sense of obligation.'"
(Stephen Crane)
peace out you freaks
love ya
P.S. - Send me the design spec for any database application for it you want, and I'll email you back exact intructions on how to implement a bug-free Microsoft solution that I could build in about one day.
P.P.S. - it is quite easy to charge more than $100 an hour if you only bill 17-22 hours per week, because you're not really billing for all your time. I bill 45 hours per week, every week, for the last 18 months.
The screen savers are awesome and they can cover what they want and they cover all OS's. On Fridays they do a alternitive os to windows tip. Throughout the week they cover all OS's. And ZD's publications can cover what they want. So be nicer!!
msnbc should do a story on airtoons i think.
-taber