Slashdot Mirror
Web Salvation: Running To The Internet Tour
Using the Net and the Web, and thanks to Slashdot and its readers, I skirted around the mass-marketing conventional wisdoms of modern publishing with my new book. So the story continues with "Web Salvation: The Running To The Internet" tour. Since it started here, it's only right that it continue here. If you care to, follow along from the inside of a new-media driven, intensely-interactive kind of rolling book tour. You can follow the sked, even e-mail the publicist. Part One:
Washington - I never love the Web more than when I visit its antithesis: this arrogant, top-down, incestuous city. Something in the drinking water here makes people angry, crazy, self-righteous, combative.
Kicking off the "Web Salvation: Running To The Internet Tour" on C-SPAN this week early Monday morning, the callers were all abuzz about yet another hateful D.C. tell-all book, this one by George Stephanopolous about how The President who employed him for year after year is unfit for office.
The first caller on "Washington Journal," from Omaha, asks me about a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. Years of Web writing have prepared me for this. "It's not really my turf," I say, as the host, Brian Lamb, nods impassively. Interactive TV, which Lam has practiced by taking calls from all over the country on his public service network from the day he started, is much like being on the Web: you get flamed but you shrug and move on. We're on the air for more than an hour.
The second caller, Sean, from New York City, signals me that he's a Slashdot regular by saying he's read my work on the Web and that my writing is "slashing." This is confirmed by Sean's subsequent e-mail. "It was cool seeing you on TV," he wrote. "I've flamed you on Slashdot, but seeing you there, well, it was cool....So I called."
It was cool, like being a member of a secret society. And effective - the Random House publicist calls to say we've shot back up onto the Amazon Top 50.
Three weeks ago, I made minor publishing and Web history by launching my new book "Running to The Mountain" on Slashdot, which excerpted a chapter about spirituality and technology. I've been contributing columns to Slashdot for the past six months, drawn by the site and the free software movement, something I've been waiting for much of my life. But I never imagined my book would debut there.
I'm what publishers call a "mid-list" author. They don't really like writers like me. Nor do they quite know what to do with us, because we rarely sell enough copies to justify their time, especially as they consolidate and get bigger and sell to giant chains. I've published seven previous books, and none has earned much for either the publisher or me. I was getting broker, and they were getting stingier. Something had to give, and the odds were it was going to be me.
At a booksellers' convention in Boston last fall, a Random House sales rep took me aside and let me know, sotto voce, that the sales force "didn't get my book." It was a friendly warning, and a chilling one. And I understood it. My book was weird - part spiritual exploration, part adventure, part memoir, part essay. I didn't have a five-word explanation that somebody could read at a sales conference. And even then, months ago, the business was buzzing about Monica.
The translation: Random House wasn't going to print many copies of my book. Maybe they'd print 5000 or so. The chain stories would each order one or two copies, stick them back in Men's Studies or Memoirs (publishers pay for the displays up front), and that would be the end of it. And that is precisely what happened.
You hear a lot about the sales force in publishing these days. Writers call them SFFH - Sales Forces from Hell. Modern-day avengers, its members hunt down mid-list writers, read through their wretched sales histories, and root them out. We are, like welfare recipients, considered a shiftless and dependent bunch no longer worthy of subsidy. Increasingly, we're also like refugees, fleeing from one publishing house to the next, panicked about our contracts and our prospects. This may be just, and nobody's forcing us to pick this line of work, but the idea is that if we don't figure out how to sell more books, we're done.
So I knew I was running out of time. But for me, the Web is almost a religion, an inevitable place to turn. I fell in love with it the moment I went online eight years ago. I've made my closest friends online, done some of my best writing there, exchanted e-mails with a zillion people, and watched in wonder as the modern equivalent of the discovery of fire erupted under my nose. I decided the Web could save me by allowing me to reach my audience directly. It offered a chance to test the validity of all the BS I've been writing about it for years.
So I gave first serial rights to my book to Slashdot - for free. My publisher chuckled. A site about a computer operating system called Linux inhabited by computer geeks? With a Penguin for a symbol? Cute. Futile. So up it went on Slashdot, home mostly to young programmers, coders, Webheads, Web designers, and OSS and Linux users -- a book about a middle-aged man heading off to a mountaintop with his dogs and a pile of Thomas Merton books, to ponder life after 50.
And guess what? Hundreds of Linux geeks bought it. The book rocketed up Amazon's bestseller list in hours, making it all the way to number 22. My publisher went into shock. A site called what? How many books? The Sales Force was in disarray.
Interestingly, among the book-buyers were many who had been roasting me alive in public forums for being a Linux klutz, a wuss and a Microsoft Word user. (Don't worry, I'll never out you). Some actually read it, some gave it to their parents, and - one or two scanned it, compressed it into e-mail files and gave it away for free. The book went into a second printing and then, this week, a third.
So my faith in the Web is repaid. More importantly, there may be a new way for writers to survive the Sales Forces. Before the publication date, I'd spent weeks e-mailing websites that might conceivably be interested - dog sites (my two yellow Labradors are featured prominently in the book), Thomas Merton sites (the Trappist Monk who inspired my journey) and any other site that might reviewthe book or link to a review or to Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble.
Luck helped: I got a great review on USA Today on the very day the excerpt appeared, as well as praise from the LA Times, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Men's Journal, Elle and New Age Journal. (For a negative review, go to Salon.com, where a critic accused me of being an upper middle-class, non-spiritual wuss).
Now I'm heading off on a two-week inter-active book tour. The Barnes and Noble website will link to the tour, and Slashdot will link to Amazon and Barnesandnoble.com. And thanks to the World Wide Web, I'm just where I want to be: on the barricades, a guerrilla writer loose in the wilds of the Net. There's going to be an auction for the paperback rights. The book is selling, so the Sales Force can't make me go away. And the Web has endless possibilities, so maybe I never have to.
Using the Web (Slashdot made it possible), I sold the book around them. My publisher has no clear idea of what's happened, other than to declare it profound. Other writers are calling daily to ask how to do this. Get on the Web, I tell them, and the force will be with you.
But probably not the Sales Force. Bewildered and unsettled, it's making all the right noises, but I can't help getting the sense that it is impatient to get on with the big celebrity books, the kind they do get and print tens of thousands of copies of. If not for the Web, and especially if not for Slashdot, I would have already been long gone.
Instead, I'll be filing book-tour I'm going to filing book- tour reports over the next couple of weeks as I visit Boston, San Francisco, Seattle, New York and other cities to flog "Running to The Mountain." Slashdot readers sure don't need to buy the book - you've already done your much-appreciated part. But if you want a peek at the insides of a modern book tour, then come along. The book's publicist, a champion both of the Web and of "Running to The Mountain" and, now a good friend as well, has graciously agreed to include his e-mail in case anybody has any questions about publishing, how media and books work, or anything else (sure, you can pitch book ideas to him, too, heh-heh). His name is Brian McClendon, and his e-mail is bmclendon@randomhouse.com.
Below is my tour schedule, including print as well as electronic media publicity. This scheduled is only accurate to date, and subject to plenty of change, and probably additional places. If you're in town, please come by, and ID yourself by making a "slash" gesture across your throat. Otherwise, you can catch me on TV and radio, critique my questions and answers, and follow along. jonkatz@slashdot.org
The Running To The Internet Tour:
Author: Jon Katz Title: RUNNING TO THE MOUNTAIN: A JOURNEY OF FAITH AND CHANGE
Pub Date:03/01/99 Price:$20.00 ISBN:0-679-45678-3
03/15/99 Run American Way Magazine National/NATIONAL - Review
03/16/99 Live 10:00AM WBUR-FM/"The Connection" Boston/NEW ENGLAND - Radio
Syndication
>03/22/99 Capitola Book Cafe Capitola/SAN FRANCISCO/NORTHERN
CALIFORNIA - Talk & Signing
03/22/99 Tape 05:00PM ZDTV/"News" National/NATIONAL - TV
03/22/99 04:00PM ZDTV/"Silicon Spin" National/NATIONAL - TV
03/23/99 12:00PM Stacey's
to waste it reading another Katz article. Ya know, one of the marks of a good writer is the ability to make one's point clearly and succinctly in as few words as possible, e.g. O'Henry...
d00dz, katz sux but i r00l
Jon Katz can't spell - and he's a writer?
Rob is getting rich by posting this guy's stuff - you have been warned.
This is not "News for Nerds" - why is it here?
Katz is such a wannabe - go away, Jon, until you've written your own kernel.
NOT ONE OF US! NOT ONE OF US!
Not too valuable to post this worthless post though, is it?
Why bother even putting the time in to BITCH about the Katz's writing, if you dont like it, dont even OPEN it. Easy enough. Its called a right to free speech.
But your time isn't so valuable that you would bother replying to the article?
tardmonkey.
fukin jon
...Katz is just using slashdot to get a foot in the door with publishers. Congrats Rob, you've been played like a schoolgirl's violin...
Can you say "Constructive criticism?" I didn't think you could...
it's my belief that you're a pathetic whiny tardmonkey with nothing better to do than bitch at jon katz. *thhhhhbhthhh*.
it was my right and duty to inform you of that.
You might learn something from the above post: how to make a point (you don't), and be brief about it (you aren't).
spamming every sucker that ever looked at slagdot?
Replying to the article, in fact took far less time than reading it would have. Perhaps the signal to noise ratio in /. would be improved if it were the other way around.
Replying to the article, in fact took far less time than reading it would have. Perhaps the signal to noise ratio in /. would be improved if it were the other way around. And I have been rooting for Katz and urging others to cut him some slack, but to my recollection he's written only one article worth reading.
You have a right to flame. Katz has a write to post.
END OF FUCKING TRANSMISSION.
How much money do you suppose Katz is making from sales of this book? What are the chances that any of it goes (in the form of donations) to /.?
I'm also not so sure what all the fuss is about. Magazines have been including chapters from upcoming books for years. Why is it that when a website does it it's a new 'paradigm'?
I didn't read your reply to the previous post, but I'm sure it's stuffed of with inaccuracies and hearsay. You're a waste of an IP address.
enough already
Since apparently simple turnabout is fair play...
it's my belief that you're a pathetic whiny tadmonkey with nothing better todo than batch at 'anonymous coward' *thhhhhbbhhhhhhh*
sm00ch
You know what? This definitely works.
So he's not a programmer.
So he's not even technically very adept.
He's still in the business of putting out
information.
He makes it known that it's available, and you
know what? It becomes a matter of interest.
It certainly shakes hell out of the established
rules for publishing houses.
And all you idiots who whine that he should
write a kernel/filesystem/graphical tool first
to earn his place here, he has, in his own way,
and in proving just the power of easily
disseminated information to a bunch of blue-nosed
publishers and their type he does more for the
freedom of information revolution than 99% of you
morons have ever done.
lern to spell
A few points to be addressed:
/.
1. Slashdot is getting rich from this.
No. I do not see a Slashdot IPO anytime in the near future, do you. It's not like running this site is free either. If y'all flamers were running this site, would you refuse money and run it solely out of your own pocket? Hey, maybe we should kill the banner ads, too.
The solution is simple. If you don't want slashdot to get any money from evil capitalists, make a contribution. Slashdot could be funded through contributions.
2. Katz is an evil capitalist who is exploiting Slashdot.
It seems pretty clear that the highly profit-driven publishing industry is on the way to eliminating non-profitable writers(believe me I know. I have first-hand experience with this)
Slashdot and the like have the ability to revive a sector of the publish industry which is on its way to extinction otherwise. You should be happy about this.
3. Katz doesn't belong on
Oh come ON! There is so much stuff on here that is sooooo much less relevant than Katz. Just because he doesn't write in flame-laden MTV sound-bytes doesn't mean it isn't interesting or useful.
4. I hate Katz/Rob is evil/Slashdot is dead/everyone who doesn't use linux sucks/ GNOME is for wankers/ Katz is stupid/ I hate Katz/ I don't want to read any more Katz.
If slashdot sucks, then don't read it. The code for this site is freely available. Go make your own Slashdot.
"There he goes...One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high-powered mutant never intended for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
you mispelled 'lern'.
dummie#%!@*)%#@*)!* *@!!P2#@%
His book is free?
I thought he did this to make money, you know, sell books.
guess I should read more carefully.
None of the criticism is constructive. it's the same rambling bullshit that gets cut and pasted everytime there is a Katz article.
How much of your salary do you donate to Slashdot?
Hypocritical monkey.
I am sorry to ask a probable FAQ, but why
is Katz allowed to post his "news" to Slashdot
at all? After all, the content of what he writes
has nothing to do with Slashdot thematics.
PS: I am not trying to say that there is no free speech, but why put stuff which does not belong
to news onto news frontpage?
it all sucks
HOW MANY FLAMES PER MINIUTE CAN THE SERVER TAKE?
You have two choices:
1. Kick yourself in the head repeatedly
2. Give 75% of your salary to GNU/FSF/Slashdot
Or, alternatively, you could stop whining about people making money, because all you are making is monkey.
because you are a meaniehead.
and you have a potty mouth%@#
Here we have another useless Bad Monkey post.
What's the point of allowing comments if all you're going to accept is "yay!", "me too", and "that's cool"?
I mean, fer christ's sake, just because some people aren't very articulate at expressing displeasure with something you're going to say that nobody should express displeasure?
"If you don't like Katz, don't read him" makes little sense to me. I don't like a lot of the things my elected officials do, but I'm sure as hell going to pay attention to what's going on. (weak analogy, but my mind is elsewhere)
Maybe I can see the true light and feel a need to inform others of the evil of what's going on. Sure, I could be wrong about this, but I really don't see what's so amazing about Katz using a popular website to sell his book. I also don't see how anyone is benefitting from this, save Katz. Please, correct me...show me the way to Katz idolatry.
mispelled the word 'clever'.
;wank
Think first, post later. I don't make a dime from Slashdot. Katz has managed to get a book that wasn't going to sell much at all to go into multiple printings. Big (and I mean fucking huge) difference.
Moronic monkey.
I like reading Katz's stuff. Why? He's not an alpha-geek, (in fact, he's not a geek at all, IMO), he doesn't espouse especially technical material, and he's not a OSS/Linux fanatic...
/. he didn't even mention linux in the last crap he posted, I don't have time for this"
:P
...I read it because he's a *REAL PERSON*. A real person who deigns to make an effort to spend time with the Übergeeks, in an attempt to truly understand them and find the middle ground--the synthesis that must exist if we are to prevent society as we know it from permanently collapsing into a schism between end-users and a cabal of wizards.
"d00d man, this bites, katz sux he doesnt belong on
News flash: YOU are not a real person.
--Jogar
oh wait.
hwee!
so fuck you$!@
oh wait.
no, i'm not british.
nevermind!
"...stuffed of with inaccuracies..."?????
Perhaps, kind sir, you meant "stuffed full..." as in "You are so stuffed full of bullshit, your eyes are brown. And so is your post!"
And if you click on that little link up there, you will discover, much to your suprise and befuddlement, that this was not the first post, it was in fact the fourth, posted a full 6 minutes after the first. Of course, this means the moderators must be slipping, as they downgraded the first 3 threads, but not this one!
Eyeing Mr. Katz for several moments, then speaking in a slow drawl: "You're not from around these parts, are ya, stranger?"
cout"\nEnglish is too confusing try writing a book in C"
But, you don't understand... it's not that I don't want to read Katz... it's that I want him to write something worth reading! He's done it before, so I know he must be capable of it. But usually he just seems to throw half-formed ideas up here to get feedback, or to engage in shameless self promotion. How is he to know which articles suck and which don't if I don't tell him? By the way: Katz, this article sucked. There you have it.
With the new customize feature I never have to read these articles anymore. I logged out though so I could see what I missed and came here to post right away.
Moderate me plaes.
Basically, Jon has done something big, Slashdot helped him do it. He has thanked us. You are jealous. Simple enough.
Monkey boy, go home.
You missed the point in all your replies to the money issue. It's not about making money, it's about making money by pretending to be doing everyone a big favor.
he he, i forgot the ";"
guess i can't even write C
-A real person who deigns to make an effort to spend time with the Übergeeks, in an attempt to truly understand them and find the middle ground-
Or is he a real person who's trying to make a buck by pretending to be your friend and then turning around and selling you his crap when you least expect it?
What's wrong with attacking Katz? If I think he's doing bad things, why can't I share that opinion?
Give me a break. Just skip the article if you don't want to read it. Save your damn time. Or better yet, log in and filter Katz out.
get a grip damnit!
have some self respect.
Hey, maybe we should kill the banner ads, too.
Entirely unnecessary for those of us who use The Internet Junkbuster...:)
honk twice if you love margarine!
that is c++ idiot
I am going to filter everything but jon katz. I didnt even read this article, I jsut read the comments. They are so funny.
This is my 5th post
I am going to filter everything but jon katz. I didnt even read this article, I jsut read the comments. They are so funny.
This is my 5th post
Umm... hands up every flamer who read Katz's landmark book "Media Rants"... hands up every flamer who is an internationally published author.
The narrow-mindedness of some of the people who frequent this site is appalling. Elitism is very sinister in a supposedly open environment. These "get off slashdot" posts sound very much like "get out of my treehouse, I built it and you don't know the secret handshake" kind of five-year-old bull. Katz has earned the right to be a respected commentator on digital socio-politics. The fact that an author such as Katz has become excited about open source is cause for celebration, not snot-ball wars. I have and will continue to read every Katz post on Slashdot.
I love you! Please make mad monkey love to me!
so are you.. neener neener neener
You need to stop telling people what they need.
Hey, Chris, what have you done lately?
honk honk honk
I've seen endless posts about how, in the music industry, artists need to break free from the grips of the RIAA, in order to increase the amount they earn from their own work. MP3 becomes an option, and suddenly, many artists find a new venue to make their work directly available to their fans.
Here comes Katz, who openly admits to being a "midlist" author, searching for a way around the traditional publishing establishment. Katz has succeeded. It is a significant victory, and it could very well signal the beginning of a movement similar that of MP3 artists.
If nothing else, he deserves credit for this.
Hell you do not seem to understand writers motivations. Writer does not care if you hate him, or if you love him as long as you read what he writes, and no matter what you spout yourself you obviously read jon, because otherwise you would not be posting your venom here, so actually you are making Jon's day, even though he probably likes people who like him better he likes you too, because you just make his "readership" so much bigger, and that is what every writer pines for. Anyway just as another writer I though you might benefit from my opionion/explanation, but you probably won't, but as long as you keep on reading we writers will not mind.....there is no negative publicity or readership. :>>--
/. would be pushing the state of the art once again. BTW thanks for the great site I love it, and it is as necessary to my life as userfriendly.org is...... :>>--
P.S.: TO ROB it would be very useful if you put in feature, which would allow spellchecking of ones posts. I know this will be a CPU hog, but it could be the new job for the old server, and since not everyone would use it I think the old one could handle it if it was all that it did. Hope to see it in future, even if it is little unrealistic to expect it soon, but I predict that tons of people would love it, and it would be something that none of the other sites have, so
Some days access to /. is so slow from where I am connecting that I do not post, and merely read, as I do not have that much time to wait for things to load, but luckily the upstream provider seems to have improved the bandwidth, so it is no longer such a problem, of course it could be the new server, but the problem for me was for the whole net, so I know it was connection, and not the server...anyway.....just some more noise to addd...let you try to filter it out...you will never succeed. :>>--
So how many worthwhile articles have you written?? :>>--
yeah I hear you :>>--
Spelling is a dying proffesion, and if you are not sure perhaps running it through a spell checker first would also help reduce the noise about who spells how, and why, when it is merely a typo, or something as simple as that, but most people just will not take time to use external spellchecker, because that would take too long, and be too much of a bother (I do not use any either, and all the typos are my own, since I hit submit one I finish typing, since I do not have time to proofread, and correct everything, since this is only a discussion, and not a paper, column, or a book, where such an effort would be worthwhile, whereas most of these comments, might not be worth the time spent typing them, so there is no incentive to go out of ones way to actually make sure all is gramatically correct, when your post will be history and frogotten within few hours.), so that is why I suggested that Rob puts in the spellchecker, so people could spellcheck their post, since that would not only make them 'easier' to read, but would give them time to think about it, and even people not using the preview would use it, and have time to cool of, or at least flame with the correct spelling. Anyway I look forward to such a feature, but I do not hold my breath. (It would be a waste of time, and air anyway, and would achieve nothing.) :>>--
Yeah! It takes out the "less than" characters. The quotation-mark-style includes aren't legal in ANSI C as they are in ISO/ANSI C++. Thus my #include "less than"stdio.h"greater than" got eaten, as did my cout "less than" "less than" string1; statements in the preceding post.
for(;;);, who ought to use "preview" more
It is very well posible, but I would rather be responsible for war and peace, then for Plonk!
Just my two cents...I have a pride, and a writers worth is measured by the weight of his work...just ask Isaac Asimov....if you could anyway.
:>>--
It's just that it's not all that new. I downloaded a book a couple of years ago that a guy had put on the net. He was bucking the publishing establishment and putting it out there himself. It was even in pdf format with cool graphics and all that jazz. He didn't even try to get me to buy anything, he was just getting his thoughts out. And it was a real book, not some random ramblings of a net maniac (definitely not saying that's what Katz is, just that this guy seemed just as professional if not more than Katz).
They are not slipping, but they have more than one story to moderate, and they have a life besides, and the posts keep comming in at breakneck speed, since this is slashdot, so even the commenst are affected by its effect...overload galore. :>>--
What a novel idea skipping something you do not like. That is what I do, and it works so well, that I do not have to bother to log in and filter anything, because I want to know what I am skipping, even if I spent only a second or two on it. Anyway just do as you are told, and do not complain. As always beware ye who enters hear, since there could be another story/comment you hate, and there is not much you can do except for ignoring it. :>>--
But not at all surprising, since as you all know spouting once opinions is the ultimate vanity, which even I cannot escape, but at least I know how it works, and do not have any pretensions about it as some other misguided souls do. :>>--
I'm not sure who you're trying to speak for when you say "us". I don't know about you, but Katz has done something for me by writing some things that have been interesting to read, bringing attention to slashdot and Linux, and offering information about publishing.
As for the fame of Katz vs. ESR, (1) who cares, (2) outside a very small circle, Katz is immensely more famous.
But there is less of it each day, so one hopes that one dies before it is all gone. :>>--
Maybe idolatry was a little strong. I get that way when I get offended. It seems that whenever anyone tries to bring up something critical of Katz they get jumped on. They don't get argued against, they get jumped on. Granted, there is a lot of flame bait out there, but I think it's just as bad on the pro-Katz side. I think there some people are ignoring the fact that Katz came in here and wrote some cool articles about the culture that's going on, and then (IMHO) plugged his book and made a bunch of cash off the people who liked what he had written earlier. Maybe it's not a fact, maybe it's just how I see things, but it's pissing me off that I can't bring this up without someone shouting 'don't read it then' or 'quit flaming katz because you suck'
deep breath. Ahh. Thanks, I feel better now.
I think Katz is the only marketroid that do not make us mad. Only a little bit (and that's 'cause he likes /. ).
Hell give him a chance! Becoming a nerd is long, and tedious process, and at least he is on the right direction toward the ultimate goal. We will convert them all eventually. :>>--
What a beutiful definition of _____ , I wish I did it. The space intentionally left blank, so that the parties it relates to can take their good old time to figure it out. :>>--
:)
HINT: SLOW
Maybe it's just me, but I feel a little used. I was under the opinion that he would be writing op-ed pieces for slashdot. I thought that was cool. Now he seems to be writing ads for his book. Would have been nice to know that's what this was about from the get-go, that's all.
I could not agree more. It is a capital crime to trash a book without reading it, and it should not be allowed, especially by some people of dubious respect as book critics. As some of you might know Nabakovs Lolita was banned in US and UK as pornography for years by people who never even saw the book. Needless to say it is nothing near such, and it is one of the greatest work of English literature, and these days a lot of other literary works are measured against it, and yet a few numb nuts almost killed it, but only the caliber of the book saved it from oblivion, and allowed it to conquer the censorsahip, and become a classic. While Jons book might never make it that far it has notheless already proven itself to be more than ghood enough, and that is what he was reporting to us. It wasn't about him selling book on /., but about the net promoting a midlist book, which the publishing establishment would love to go away, because they are trying to convince themselves that the midlist books are no longer needed, and would love to get rid of them together, but net might just save the midlist, and its authors, and it might even usher a renaisance of the midlist, since now all the members of the particular niche for such book can be easily, and expediently reached, and if more books, succeed in that, then the big publishers will be forced to re-evaluate their dubious strategy, and even - gasp - admit that they were wrong. So just know you read it here first. The midlist is making comeback, and slashdot is one of the few parties responsible for it. Second I do not give a damn for you whiners that complain that Rob might actually make some money. Do you actually know how much connectivity like slahdots costs, and how hard is to actually to even break even in this business? So why should not he make money when he provides a service, which we all clamor for and love? Even RMS does not mind people making money from software. He just wants free software, and documentation for such. He does not mind books like Jon writes, because those are different from the documentation which he belives should be free. So he does not mind Rob actually trying to pay for slashdot, or Jon actually trying to make living from writting. So you should not mind either, or just leave slashdot, and not use it anymore, since obviously you belive you could do better without spending any money.
:>>--
Of course you get more enjoyment out of writting the long-winded, self-centered drivel when you use the right tools to do it, so here I go, and I thing, I will let it drool a bit longer, just cause I enjoy it so much. :>>--
Simple yes, but jealous people are your worst enemies, but they do produce a lot of hits, and that is what drives the banner ads, which pays for the bandwidth for /., so you should not mind, and they cannot help to help as long as they utilize slashdot, so let them drool their drivel, and if you do not care for it just adjust your treshold. Cudos to Jon for letting poeple ton actually read the stuff for free. If I like something enough I will buy the dead-tree version as I enjoy reading long things in that meadium better, and it is still a bit more protable than a computer with a connection. :>>--
It is very rera to see actual constructive criticism anywhere, but people who do not by their own admission even bother to read the stuff cannot even pretend to offer constructive criticism. And if a criticism is constructive it can still easily be mistaken for hate, or jealousy, so for the most part it is a never ending vicious cycle. Personally I think Jon is doing a better a job than a lot more people, so we should rather be criticizing people who are not even up to his level, that way we can actually achieve something. :>>--
BTW: Criticizing somedoby trying to make a revolution in the publishing business is realy counter-contructive, since the only other alternative is complete control by soul-less corporation, which does not give a damn about anyone, or anything, and I will take jon aver that any day. (It was the reason the Free Source movement itself succeeded. (Free Source is a compromise I use. RMS wants it to be called free software, and Eric S. wants it to be Open Source. So I just call it Free Source, which tells it like it is, and does not imply something that it isn't like the other two have a tendency to do. Free Source is GPLed software, and some-other licenses might qualify for the monicer as well, but I have not looked at any closely enoufh to be sure, so for now please use it only for GPL software if you choose to do so at all. Thank You for reading my mindless drivel this far, hope it was worth it.))
Really if you are such a net guru, then you also have the right to go ahead write your own books, and columns, and start your own slashdot, which would be made easy by the fact that /. is GPLed, but even if you do all this I doubt you will be succesful. Jon has already that at least some of us (including Rob I guess) are interested in his drivel, whereas most likely no one is interested in yours. So just go ahead, and try, and we will see how far you will get, and many readers will you manage to actually get. Come back when your following is bigger then Jons, but until then just leave the subject alone. You have my most sincerest doubts. :>>--
Thanks for performing your duty in deflating this clown. :>>--
Except for the testinfg ones, which were trying to kill the new server, when Rob was still testing it. :>>--
Public service announcement: If you don't like it indented just go flat.
So just let us all get us on with our business, because I have the right to put in these silly rresponses to both of the above. :>>--
That is the paradigm shifting difference we are talking about. We have a change to shake the world of big publishing to its roots, and i for one quake with anticipation of that happening. It will be fun, and they had it long time in coming, so now is the time. Ain't payback a bitch. :>>--
I do not below to the one side, or to the other. i just enjoy reading my own drivel on slahdot, while possibly enlightening a few souls on both sides of the conflict along the way, but even if I fail at that I do not mind, because I got all of this of my chest, and I can now happylly go on. I will not be bothered, since I tried to educate the extremist, and if they fail to see the writting on the wall then it is their fault, and not mine, so my conscience is clear, and the next time I can just laugh, but I will most likely try again, since I belivbe in giving people a chnace, even though PT Barnum didn't belive in giving a moron an even break. :>>--
About as many as the amount of de-flamers---actually flamers usually have just infatile little comments, so they do not kill as much bandwidth as some more deeper, and more inspired articles, which this does not claim to be either. This is just prolonged drivel, and I am justly proud of that. :>>--
God, I feel horny.
I would not consider myself a juvenile freak you seem to alude to but I just do not like to log in anywhere, because for the most part it is more trouble than its worth, and I already have enough mkpasswd generated passwords to remember, and I do not need another, and since I go here from all sorts of place saving the password would not be an option either. besides all of the above I do enjoy being AC, and I will post as such unless I can write my own articles, when there would be enough reason for me to actually have an account, but as long as rob doesn't give me such privilidges I will just be a humble AC, and enjoy it as much as I can. :>>--
Actually he has done a lot for us. he has given us a topic to discuss, and flame each other over. Without him we would just be sitting here on our asses bored, and completely drained of all energy, but thankss to him we can flame each other over such non-issues as what he has done for us lately. I think he brought me a lot of enjoyment, even if I never had read a book of his, and I might just read one as a thanks for all the distraction he has caused. If you flamed anybody in this discussion, then you have to thank him for allowing him to give you the opportunity to do so. So there ya go. More than what you done, since some of the flames weren't even entertaining as some of them tend to be. :>>--
That could be about as good as RMS singing the free software song, which is attrocious. People should stick to what they do best. For RMS it is free source software, and evengelizing the free software movement, and for Katz it is writting, and neither of them should venture into something, where their talent is lacking, and we already know RMS can't sing, even if he can play the flute passably well. :>>--
Good for you, now go and spew your juices somewhere else. :>>--
As you well point out the man is out after the midlist. I thought spider robinson was so much more successfull then to have to feel the wrath of the midlist cutters. Just shows how much I know. Still I envy him for actually being able to be published. It is more difficult then most of the flamers think, because they have never tried themselves. :>>--
If you ask me one of the biggest problem with society today is narrow-mindness. I have respect for anyone who comments on socio-political issues. It may not contribute to the Linux community directly but it does contribute to the net community. I mean we are in a state of huge cultural change and all the people that think that these topics are waste of time are still living in the late 80's. We need people like Katz to discuss changing cultural attiudes and to bridge the gap between people on the front line of net cutlural development and the mainstream society, without him people are going to look at Linux geeks and say "what a bunch of assholes, I'm not tocuhing linux even if it is a better OS because linux geeks are elitist arrogant assholes" Now I know this post was a bit further from Katz's normal fair, but it is something that is consuming alot of his personal time at the moment and something he feels the need to comment on. I have not problem with that.
Wow... lots of people must have really boring lives and jobs.
you can d/l a bunch of small pieces
from most distribs, slackware,redhat,debian
if you have a 'basic' linux working then u can
just install them on top.
Click here! You will never want to leave!!!!
Interestingly, among the book-buyers were many who had been roasting me alive in public forums for being a Linux klutz, a wuss and a Microsoft Word user.
And how exactly did he reach this conclusion? I have yet to see a "I used to hate Katz, but I just bought his book" post. I for one, will not be suckered into his scam.
It is truly unfortunate that you consider "Fukin Jon" making a point. While picking on grammar and spelling errors is usually a rather pointless effort, I'm not ready to say the same about asking people to say something with at least a hint of intelligence and articulateness.
Ben
biy@andrew.cmu.edu
Have you noticed how many he uses the word "I"? Me, me, me. A ran to the mountain, sold it to a sucker web site, and made the moolah.
In other words, less than nothing.
alt.fan.longest-thread
heh.
He is obviously using /. to advertise his new book. Its the second time I have seen him do it.
What's earned him the right? Well, he was one of the first people to right about these issues on the web, ever read Wired's "Netizen" in the good old days? His web-column was anthologised into a book in about 1996. Probably not a first, but certainly an achievement and a recognition of the value of his commentary.
As for "jumping on the band wagon", I was reading Katz's work years ago.
As for Katz being a hack, please note that is a _completely unsubstantiated_ subjective analysis, based on the loosest appreciation of his work. My _personal_ opinion is that he's really good. I enjoy reading his stuff. Whether or not he's the _best_ man for the job I cannot say, but it's a good thing that someone like him, _is_ writing about this stuff on Slashdot.
As for the USA Today comment, I've never in my life ever even _seen_ a copy of USA Today, I love the way you assume I'm an American. FYI, I'm a South African. (that's an aside)
... is not:
1) "he is not one of us"
2) "he does not know how to use linux"
3) "he is not a geek"
4) "he is a geek"
It is just that he never really says anything. His essays remind me of the 5-10 pages of fluff I would write way back in high school AP English, and then later in all of my humanities classes in college. 10 pages of long words and about one paragraph of actual (plagarized) content.
I never disagree with him because he never takes a stand on anything.
I never agree with him because he never takes a stand on anything.
He just rambles on and on about how the web "empowers him" and how the linux world "empowers him" and how the free flow of information "empowers us all".
ESR and RMS and Bill G. may have their weaknesses, but at least they seem to HAVE an ideology.
Jon: Here's hoping you find one.
i was really tired. i hadn't slept for about two days, or not much really. and i had this big computer science project to do, on sierpinsky triangles. Anyway, I was stuck at school doing it and it just wasn't happening, so I decided to read Katz's whole article because I was frustrated and I ended up flaming this juuri guy for no real reason but he kept responding so I kept going, and posted lots of dumb crap and it ended up looking like all the other crap on slashdot except that it was a lot longer. kindof like one of katz's posts. and then i realized that more people flame people flaming people flaming katz than his articles are actually long, size wise. but then i had to go the mac lab to finish my program and i finally got it done by 8pm and went home and ate a couple of vegetarian hotdogs and sourkraut and some rice and that green juice you can buy for $1.40 at cumberland farms. I doubt you care but that's the story behind this whole thread.
whee!$$!
The aNonymous Dork or something.andstuff.
im dum.
Oh yeah, just a side note -- currently this thread represents about 14.7% of the total comments posted to the initial slashdot post.
No prob
bob.
whee!
teh anyonyuomus dork
%@#*
But others should check out the posts about his book and his writing career and speaking engagements. It's just respectable journalism to not put him in that position- he _cannot_ play that role honorably, because it's not for him to play- except that currently, he's the one who plays it, and it is most inappropriate, and hardly fair to Jon, because he gets criticised ruthlessly for being very excited about very selfish things that he has a perfect right to be excited about.
From a purely journalistic standpoint, you're right. A journalist who reports the news should not be making it at the same time.
But I don't see Katz' role now as much a journalist as a writer. Even as a journalist, he doesn't produce news stories...he produces a regular column, which is simply a forum for him to relate his own experiences and opinions.
One of the things that makes this experience so unique is that it broke so many of the crusty, pre-conceived notions about what people will buy and the means of distribution. I think it's cool that Katz took the time to share this experience - if anything, it's a tribute to Slashdot.
I HAT EYOU JUIRRI YOU BASTREIUD!Q@!!
poohead
nuke france.
teh anynemuos dorrk
From the Genus Ed., a card at random:
Geography: What U.S. state has an annual gumbo festival with a 4000 g. pot?
(Lousiana)
Entertainment: Who recorded the 1952 hit single "Cry"?
(Johnnie Ray)
History: Who visited his Gunganstown, Ireland, relatives in 1963?
(JFK)
Arts & Literature: What Leon Uris book compelled Joseph Heller change his title from Catch-18 to Catch-22?
(Mila 18)
Science & Nature: What was first marketed as Gayetty's Medicated Paper?
(toilet paper)
Sports & Leisure: What cities were the start and finish of the first intercontinental auto race in 1908?
(NY and Paris)
Sigh, I didn't get any of those right. There are pretty trivial. Except for the S&L one, I guess
Ah, but the content of the writing has everything to do with good, professional work. Good, solid writing is good, solid writing whether it's written on a Linux box, a Mac, an IBM Selectric, or scratched in the mud with a fraggin' stick. Similarly, long-winded, self-centered drivel is long-winded, self-centered drivel no matter what it's written with...
CmdrTaco is a free agent, and he's entitled to do all he likes for you. I myself have given you some harsh feedback which I've no idea if you listened to it or not- and I was free to do so or withhold such criticism. I can give you input, I can give you validation by writing fan letters, I can argue with other slashdotters over you and increase the size of your threads.
What have you done for _us_ lately?
This is one-sided. If you're going to be a leech, go away and leave us alone. If you want to be worth our respect, use that Boomer brain and figure out some way to promote US! We don't care about your success- that's _your_ problem. We don't care about your personal goals- you used to talk about overcoming Linux, and we cared about the Linux, not about your process of overcoming. _Everybody_ struggles with new things and has to make an effort. _Everybody_ cares about something or other (even if it's the act of not caring). It's boring.
Show us what you can damned well _do_. I realise this is harder than self-aggrandizement but it's all that matters.
What, what have you done for us lately? What have you even tried to do? There's no sin in failing to contribute to society. There's no sin in fleeing to a mountain with your dogs and opting out of the many struggles of the present day. People have been doing it since way before the '60s, it was boring then, it was noisy and boring in the '60s and it is boring now. The insult is not in the cowardice of hiding behind the walls of the self and the ego, but in behaving like it's _our_ job to help you further yourself.
You, Jon, need to reconsider what you do with your storyposting access to Slashdot. Granted, many stories are silly or just fun, and there's no crime in that- but it is wrong to use such a gift for self-aggrandizement unless you can also throw in something that helps _us_ in the bargain. So you're doing a book tour- great! I told you myself that you should, that it was a hell of an angle to work: I'm a writer, not as successful (enough to know you're not making piles of cash even now, that argument is silly), and you _should_ hit the talk shows. But once you're there, Jon, what will you do? What will you say? In all your talk of self-discovery, where is the slightest detail that will help the world or us or the damned dogs you took with you or anyone but Jon Katz? You need to find an answer for that.
And I'll tell you why: in self-aggrandizing terms (we are whimsical animals and self-aggrandizing is natural and good). You need to find an answer because having one will make you more famous. Vain writers full of themselves are boring. If you come off boring and pompous you'll never see the talk shows again. On the other hand- if you can work an angle outside the self, make _it_ famous if you understand me, why then, you come along for the ride! Look at ESR, him and his Jedi costume. Imagine how you'd sell if you were _that_ colorful. Now look again- ESR has an _angle_, it's not just a cult of personality. He has a theme, a cause. What is your cause, Jon? The answer to that will make the difference between fame and obscurity- and it all comes down to the simple question: yes, we've done much for you, but what can you do for us? That's the story, that's the angle, that's what could set you apart from a thousand geriatric hippie writers trawling the dregs of the B list. Ponder this well, grasshopper- last time I spoke to you I said to go on talk shows and that's working- so will this work if you are big enough to do it. Hopefully you can pick up a bit of wry affection from this vicious genX 13er hacker writer speaking to you across what sometimes seems an insurmountable gap. _Work_ this one- I won't say 'look deep into yourself' because what will you find there? Nothing more special than any human who cares. Look outside yourself- look to what you do, and ask yourself, what beyond my feelings, my heart and soul, can I give?
Because, Jon, I can tell you from the breakdown lane of the information superhighway and from a spot pulling people out of the gutters of life, that giving the heart and soul just isn't enough. The day ends, and you've done nothing to help anyone- find ways to _try_ and build somebody, something, up, rather than building your heart and soul up to a state of useless radiance and enlightenment. You don't have to succeed, but you do have to try.
I've spent a lot of time writing and writing to try and reach you and cast a light on you. That's my privilege- I could not care, which is also my privilege, I could cut you dead instead of trying to understand or counsel. Instead, I choose to try and reach you, in stark contrast to your usual flamer.
What have you done for _us_ today?
Bitched at Katz, and signed my name to it ;) and you?
The question is, is he going to try and widen the crack so other people can get through, using the temporary soapbox he gets through this publicity, or is he gonna decide it's because _he_ is some kind of wonderful philosopher, and not do a damn thing to express publically the capacity of the net to bring one person's views or art to the attention of many?
But... upon reflection, that isn't even the issue, is it? Much of this would seem different if Katz submitted articles to editors who then could post them or not, and I think some of his excesses would be minimized. He's basically abusing his editor privileges, if you want to put it that way- there's nothing so intrinsically wrong about his articles besides the occasional MS Word garbled quotes, but hell, not even Sengan would post articles just to sell something... much less use the capacity to put Slashdot articles online, to hype his own product. Editors are for guarding objectivity, and Jon Katz has stumbled badly in this regard. He should have let others post the news of his series of appearances- and, for that matter, the news of his book.
It is possible that those articles would not have seemed on-topic enough to another editor. But Jon, by virtue of trying to get a Linux box, gained write access, and now that he has it, there is no more about his linux box, and he presents infomercials on his book, and speculations about sexbots.
I admit that would sell books and keep his section of Slashdot read, but it would be better if someone else had the decision to post his stuff or not.
Hell, I write, and do essays on Linux and open source, and in fact I have written GPLed software, and you don't see _me_ demanding that I must be allowed to have write access to Slashdot. I'm just suggesting that Jon Katz should _not_. He can't wear a book publicist hat and a Slashdot editor hat at the same time. It just doesn't work- it's wrong- one does not _mix_ roles in that way. I trust CmdrTaco's objectivity- hell, I trust Sengan's objectivity a lot more than Jon Katz's, because although Sengan is very opinionated and has even slanted stories, the stories he posted were not _about_ _him_.
It's not reasonable to expect Katz to be an objective editor about his own stuff, and indeed he's not. He should be allowed to be an editor on stories he finds that are not _about_ _him_, even sexbots- why not? But others should check out the posts about his book and his writing career and speaking engagements. It's just respectable journalism to not put him in that position- he _cannot_ play that role honorably, because it's not for him to play- except that currently, he's the one who plays it, and it is most inappropriate, and hardly fair to Jon, because he gets criticised ruthlessly for being very excited about very selfish things that he has a perfect right to be excited about...
Posted by The Mongolian Barbecue:
Everyone who contributed to the negative thought density here should be embarressed
What's with the repeated gas inflated drivel this week?
My time is too valuable...
/. so you can get first post.
Yeah, right. You don't have enough time to read, but you do have enough time to sit there reloading
According to O'Henry this next line is the most amazing literary work ever:
Plonk!
OK, I'll disagree that he's unfit for office. Not that he didn't screw up big time, but considering he's been accused of everything including murder it's amazing he could function at all.
Nothing wrong with what's-his-name writing about it though.
Personally, I voted for him because he WAS a pot-smoking skirt-chasing draft-dodger. He'd be the last guy to push the big red button because there's always a new waitress at the local donut shop.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
just a quick question.. did you use macintosh or linux to write that post? im not critizing, im just asking which one he used, to see if linux can be used fluently to produce good writings for professional use. my guess would be that it was written on a mac, but of course, who knows, maybe he used linux. it would be nice, but not nessessary. :)
--
scott miga
i think you mis-understood my question. my question was that to see which he used, mac or linux. i wanted to know because then it would tell me if professional work could be produced in linux or if he had to use a mac. the question had nothing to do with the content of his writing per say.
--
scott miga
heh, i understand that as well, im just finding out if linux can have the user produce good "peices" of work.. in a professional way using tools in linux.. im not talking about the style or kind of writing. :)
--
scott miga
yes, something to that effect.. :)
--
scott miga
amen.. the solution is right there.. rob cant do any more than what he did with author muting.
--
scott miga
Regarding 'the web' you write that you 'fell in love with it the moment I went online eight years ago'. That's pretty cool. How was that NexT box you were using? Because in 1991, the only OS that had a 'web browser' per se was NexT.
This is one of my pet peeves. I hear it all the time that so-and-so web designer (usually the guy who grabs MS Front Page demo and puts up a sign) has been publishing web pages 'for well over ten years now' or that they've been 'online' since 1962 or some such crap. While I do admit that one can be 'online' without being 'on the web' (whereas most AOhell people think that online=web) and that online can even mean, yes, dare I say, NOT on the internet. Wow.. what a revalation... but I digress..
Mr Katz, I'm interested in hearing when you first know about the WWW. Myself, I was learning about 'hypertext' from a fellow student who was doing a paper on the topic back in 1992. I was, at the time, using email, USEnet, IRC and this coolest of cool things, gopher. The WWW as we've come to know it didn't really hit it's stride until 1992, or even 1993, following the release of Mosiac in February 1993. Even still, the web (port 80)was only 1% of all the NSF Backbone traffic by September of that same year.
Mr. Katz, you know better than to try and impress US with numbers and pissing contests. Don't bullshit us. Now I remember why I stopped reading your posts. They don't speak for _me_ or the people I work with. They don't speak for the people I know in this industry.
I would also be VERY careful telling people that the 'secret signal' is also a symbol for you getting your throat slit. That's just plain stupid. I can see where the media would take THAT.
LArry King: So what's with this secret symbol I hear about, all these geeks wanting to kill you?
Katz: Well Larry, I told them to do it and damned if I wasn't surprised when that crazy guy actually came up behind me and slit my own throat, but hell, I don't think the artificial voice box is too bad, do you?
Well... I suppose I should just go back to editing this web page of mine that I've had for ten years now, and maybe I'll call Al Gore to ask for some advice on this routing problem....
Here's your nickel Katz, go get a clue.
-- There is no sig line, only Zuul.
anyone notice the difference in tone between these comments and the comments on ESR's article below? One can be lead to deduce a lot of things from this about Slashdot, the respective authors, etc. but Jon... RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
I don't want to hear about how /. promoted your book! Post something substantive or go advertise somewhere else!
Yeesh!
--
As long as each individual is facing the TV tube alone, formal freedom poses no threat to privilege.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
What's the matter with Stephanopolus writing about Clinton and why he's unfit for office? Does anyone actually disagree with George on this? George should know, he knows Clinton better than anyone else here. Don't blame George for following his conscious - I would abandon my boss if he was a louse, too. No need to go down with the Titanic.
I look at ALL THE FLAME'S, the "JOHN KATZ IS AN IDIOT" messages and shake my head... CT just posted a neat little thing that allows you to CUSTOMIZE what you see... IF YOU CAN'T STAND JOHN KATZ... THEN REGISTER... CREATE A CUSTOM PAGE THAT ELIMIATES HIM!!! (Yes.. I was shouting!)
Regarding 'the web' you write that you 'fell in love with it the moment I went online eight years
ago'. That's pretty cool. How was that NexT box you were using? Because in 1991, the only OS that
had a 'web browser' per se was NexT.
Oh, grow up! Being "online" is not the same thing as the Web. I've been "online" and using Internet for over 15 years. I started when I got a high-speed modem (1200bps) and a serial card for my Apple II. I had an account at a University...
...richie
...richie - It is a good day to code.
Good point. Now if he recorded a few songs and released them as mp3's...;-)
Unless your name is Linus Torvalds (and he has said that he doesn't read /., so you're not) you have no right to say something like that. What have you in your brillence written.
If you truely think that Rob is getting rich by posting Katz's stuff, then you are an idiot.
Good thing your beliefs don't mean crap to me, or to reality...
I think your time is overvalued.
I started with nothing and I still have most of it.
So much for the new changes to Slashdot. I'm still seeing this Katz article despite checking of Katz on the exclude list.
More than one, actually.
/.
/. and look forward to your future efforts.
First, you are an engaging, entertaining writer, and I enjoy reading your contributions to
Second, you have the ability, through your contributions to this site, to spark some of the most heated, polarized "debates" I've seen here. That may not be a talent you treasure, but you sure do possess plenty of it.
I can only hope that you give appropriate weight to the commentary expressed in these forums - which is to say, that you give more weight to the people who are actually willing to sign their names than to the ubiquitous Anonymous Cowards who, either through poor muscle coordination or poor impulse control, seem unable to avoid clicking those links which will take them to stories that they know in advance they will not enjoy.
If only I had the time to read every story that appeared under my mouse...
I am glad that you contribute to
I was reading through this to find some sort of meaning and point to all of this.
The only things this long post seemed to say are the following:
1. Thank you Slashdot readers! I was going to be a washed up writer, but I stumbled upon you guys and you gave me a chance!
2. If you see me on TV, let me know you're a slashdot reader, so I can slum with you guys and feel like I belong somewhere.
3. Since some of you bought my book, and the rest of you probably won't, I'll be nice and let you get at the text.
4. If you want to see the real live me in person, come and see me! I love seeing the little people that are my fans.
Maybe I'm just cynical. Shrug.
No offense, Katz, but you seem a little full of yourself.
What does the operating system have to do with the content of his writing?
OK... Sure J.K. is the one directly benefitting from this, and when you look at it none-too-closely, he may appear to be getting something for nothing, or something for having done very little, but try and see the bigger picture.
/.? Well, I dunno... I like hearing about the changes which technology (esp. the internet) is having on the world, and that's part of what /. is about, isn't it? Sure, it's not a new microprocessor or some new piece of nanotechnology, but it's a new process (even if it seemed obvious to you before he did, he's proved it's possible now, to the likes of publishers, proof is worth more than spouting a couple of ideas). In many ways, the internet is about challenging the way we look at things today, from the way we shop to the way we converse with one another, this is just another example...
In 'doing what he's done', Katz has proven that to sell a book you don't necessarily have to go through the conventional motions. He went against the grain, did something a little unusual, something in fact that nobody has really done before. And sure, the result is a bit of money in his pocket, he bloody well deserves it! He took a risk and it paid off, that's what life's about.
Now that the risk has paid off for someone, others are sure to follow. He's proved that the conventional avenues for book advertising aren't the be all and end all, and that book publishers should open their eyes a little.
So who benefits? Well, potentially thousands of authors and aspiring authors who would have otherwise gone unpublished, or as Katz says himself, who would have been forced out of publication by sales people only choosing to print a few thousand copies. It's possible then that as a result of that, thousands of people across the world will hear about and read a book which they would not have otherwise read, and some might even enjoy them (And here I don't just mean Katz's one!).
Imagine a situation where you find yourself writing a book, wouldn't you find it useful to know that this sort of thing was possible?
Does this sort of thing belong on
You don't even have to like Katz to see the potential knock-on effect this will have. And even if it doesn't, it'll still be interesting to watch.
Why bother even putting the time in to BITCH about the BITCHING about the Katz's writing, if you dont like it, dont even OPEN it. Easy enough. Its called a right to free speech.
Oh well.
I'm sure the Katz flames will continue despite the new filtering features. A certain % of people seem to enjoy it...so they will always read and always complain. Probably best to ignore them.
'conspiracy to take over the world. Years of Web writing have prepared me for this. "It's not really my turf," I say, as the host, Brian Lamb, nods impassively.'
F /...
I have years of "Web writing" too! John that makes me a NET.GURU just like you! In fact isn't this your first real taste of net writing. A place where people actually give feedback on an almost instant basis on how annoying your drivel is?
Again this article provides nothing to slashdot except more used disk space. However instead of simply ignoring it as many suggest (including Rob) it is my right and my duty to defend my beliefs. One of those beliefs is that you are a huge detriment to the "slashdot community" and should be firmly cut off before you drag it down anymore.
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
Since apparently simple turnabout is fair play...
F /...
"it's my belief that you're a pathetic whiny tadmonkey with nothing better todo than batch at 'juuri' *thhhhhbbhhhhhhh*"
sm00ch
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
Too many )'s.
F /...
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
u mus be jon kats in disguize
F /...
ur klever trix kant fool me
ps jon is it troo u r a foundin member of MoD?
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
shutup brit
F /...
go back to mesopotamia
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
bahahahahahahaehaehaEHEAHAEH
F /...
"Katz has earned the right to be a respected commentator on digital socio-politics."
Okay. How? What has he done that has "earned" him the right?
I can't believe the "narrow-mindedness" of all these Katz jumping bandwagon fodder. No matter how banal the drivel Katz dishes out these people come to his aide and rescue.
Every argument for Katz centers around the "are you an international known and respected author?" or some other equally invalid critic. Katz isn't a respected author. He is a hack. I swear you people must think USA Today is filled with incredible detailed and accurate reporting.
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
Hey it is USENET all over again!@#!@ So in the long time tradition of such famed groups as alt.pud and alt.lamprey I give you a translation for the above post:
F /...
ME TOO!@)#$(*!)@#*%$)!@*#$*!@#$*!@#*
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
I wonder how well Rob has tested his display routine with insanely fun and creative threads like this one!@#$!)@*#$&*!$*F /...
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
u dumb
F /...
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
I have no clue what the above thread is about. I have much better things to do with my time. But it is by far the most indented thread I've seen on /.
I've been around for almost two years. Granted, I don't usually read the comments on ones that have more than, say... 250 or so. But I've never come across one that went all the way across in 1024x768 until now. Kinda lame that this thread is about absolutely nothing, isn't it?
I can't remember exactly when it got out of hand (although I suspect it was as a result of the initial "hey! people are flaming me because of what I wrote, and I'm now going to write about how the slings and arrows are all part of this wonderful anarchistic culture that we have, and it doesn't really hurt, but sometimes it does when it's a pointless ad hominem thing), but the levels of nesting have now become totally surreal as far as I'm concerned.
Tip: When some people self-refer (Muhammad Ali, the Muppets, Douglas Hofstadter, Beastie Boys) it's really clever. Others just come off as annoying (Monica Lewinsky, House of Pain, Al Gore, ...). Figure out which side you're going to fall on before you do it.
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
Hah! You forgot to include stdio.h!
/Nick, with tongue firmly in cheek
.
This sig is false.
But could you please shut up and stop screaming around that the web (/.) made it possible. Sure it did, but to most techies that is not interesting. I think you should publish this on a site dedicated to sales (of books). I think this time you've choosen the wrong audience.
Marco Schramp
That's the point, I think. He's just showing us how technology GOES on changing the world, even some things we take for given...
I don't think he's playing unfair.
(forgive me for bad syntax/etc., I'm italian) /. effect) with a big italian publishing house, and I found JK article VERY interesting in demonstrating how a good book can survive marketing/sales tyranny.
His post is the analogous to the Open Source vs commercial debate. It clearly demonstrates the influence and MARKET power of geeks sites/culture/etc.
A friend of mine had a similar experience as JonK (apart from the
This-Is-An-Example-Of-Jon-Katz's Dept.
as opposed to:
cmdrtaco-or-sengan-or-hemos-do-it-this-way dept.
In any case, the discussion ensuing this article (which, by the way, was a pretty good article—it's interesting to see Katz's view of the publishing industry) has exceeded that of the recent article we all known and love in terms of pure entertainment quality. If Katz's last article were mental masturbation, then the comments for this article are mental exhibitionism. It's most annoying because this is actually a good article. Granted, it's somewhat offtopic, but what is /. but a place to post offtopic comments and articles?
This is almost as fun as the newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email back in the days of the New Jersey Swearing-Harasser, John McGrath, The Church of Forrest Dayton, the Pakistani Spammer, and the girl wanker (AKA Johnboy Junior). <sigh> Those where the days. That was all around the time when we killed Cyberpromo...
Cheers,
Joshua.
--jon. Postel is dead. May we all mourn his, and our, loss.
God, I never realized how much nicer
Thank you, Cmdr!!!!!
Bravery, Kindness, Clarity, Honesty, Compassion, Generosity
...Nothing interesting here. Just move along...
i would have hoped that a thread this long would have contained at least one intelligent comment.
but then again i'm not about to volunteer one- my last post involved declaring my feelings for jello. go figure.
i dunno if you've ever tried it, but its not very exciting. i'm sick of windows, and i figured it was time to learn linux, so i built a machine out of some spare parts lying around the house, hooked it up to my pathetic little lan, and started downloading. and if you're reading this and you know of a way of salvaging a redhat ftp install that got disconnected, i'd appreciate it.
There is more to life than computers, rather more to computers than installing software and yapping about hardware. I realize there are a lot of flamers, but shit. if you dont like reading Katz, why the hell did you click the link and post a comment.
It's not a book I would've normally bought, but
i found it pretty interesting. TO KATZ: i'de like to know if you kept the cabin or sold it before the books sales took off.
now to the flamerz: dont like it, dont read it. you waste more time relentlssy ripping on this guy.
-Z
I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going.
Geez. Litin up peeple. Spellin onlee cownts at werk and skewl.
Besides. Its just like the clipper chip and PIII arguements. If you dont like it, dont use it, so in other words, if you dont like Katz, dont read his posts.
I like what he writes.
-Z
I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going.
All those Katz haters accusing /. of "taking the money and run" are missing the point.
/. Most of the readers here are pro OSS, anti-MS, programmers, sys-admins and all around technical bit heads. There are many who dismiss us, consider us rebels (or what not) who only care about renegade software and breaking away from conformity (according to industry thinking at the least).
/. gets some of the proceeds (any book when linked of /. ...it's on the front page for Christ's sake) and they're adult enough to make their own decisions.
My read (heh...get it?) on this posting is another revelation of the true power of the Internet and of the readers of
But we have the ability to be movers and shakers outside of what others perceive as our isolated world. Amazon.com, publishing and media in this example. That's the point.
Of course I could be way off base, and I'm sometimes a rambler, but it's just my $0.02.
// Flame on
Everyone who bought the book knows that
And bitching cause the 'filters' aren't working. You mean the hyperlinked "Jon Katz" text brandishing the begining of the front page excerpt doesn't tip you off? You clicked to it, read it and posted to it. It's a weak excuse.
// Flame off
Why don't you Anonymous Cowards go away until _YOU'VE_ written your own kernel.
StylishPants.Org - Home of everything that's interesting, and nothing that's not.
Hey I resent dat!!
... and, while I am not terribly impressed with :^)
Katz's insights into life and the world ("sexbots"
was a piece of thoughtless drivel), I don't mind
seeing one author's experiences with the
publishing industry. Who knows, maybe it'll
come in useful someday when I write a
book and need to know how to hype it on the
Internet.
I'm surprised no one has responded to this statement yet...
/. has and can wield in our society...
/. was able to boost Jon Katz to some sort of respectability, and to push sales.
/. and of geeks and nerds everywhere!
It bespeaks of the huge power and force that
While people are free to disagree on what is important or not, it is very powerful that
Sure, hate Katz for what he did, but it means in a concerted effort, we could pick and choose any random work, any random title, any random author, and guarantee them in the top 25 best sellers. Its a sign of the power of
AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
I have something to say to the byte-counting flame idiots out there:
If you haven't purchased the book, you wouldn't know that a number of years ago, Diane Sawyer ranked below Katz in signifance in the national media -- she had to ask HIM for what she wanted. 99.99% of you will never know how difficult it is to get a book published in the first place -- Katz has several. But not only does this guy takes the time to work with Rob here on Slashdot, he answers e-mails to people like me he whom he has never met, and he puts his ideas out in front of us for consideration on a regular basis, only to get trashed for the effort.
I paid $14.95 to Amazon for my copy of the book-- so, figuring that most authors get around 10% royalties on their books, then if Katz sold -- hundreds -- of books to Slashdot readers, he's made a few hundred bucks on us at best. But Slashdot could not buy the kind of notice from the big booksellers that Katz brought here for under (and I'll admit this is a guess) $50K-$60.
So here's what I'd like to say, and I don't care how often I get flamed on this thread for saying it: To all you juvenile delinquents in front of keyboards who have nothing better to do than post (mostly anonymous) coward notes attacking Mr. Katz every time he offers thoughts or commentary on Slashdot, I have one thing to say:
Either get yourselves logins, use the new slashdot features to exclude Katz' articles... or shut up, will ya!
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
Notice that I said "most" AC's/ I also note that you didn't use any profanity, didn't play attack freak, or anything else which I would refer to as being 'juvenile'. For which I thank you and to the others, I say, learn from this fellow.
By the way, if you allow your system to receive cookies, you don't have to login. Slashdot is programmed to look for the cookie. A person can always log out and still be AC.
Something like having your cookie or eating it too? (Lame attempt at humor...)
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
Yeah, but he can spell
You use the term us far too liberally. I personally don't give a damn whether or not Katz has done anything for OSS, Linux, or anything else ... he's a writer, and if you like or dislike what he writes that is your opinion.
... as long as we're slinging advice all over each other.
What has Katz done for us lately? He wrote a book, something which the barely-literate haxors and irc twits would have a difficult time doing. He wrote several books, which contributed to the literary environment of the US in one way or another. He wrote (peripherally, maybe) about technology, and issues surrounding technology, which is a subject rarely broached by anyone who doesn't have SCI-FI stamped on their books. Whether or not you like his writing, I don't see how you can discount the contributions of any writer who will try to publish "geek-friendly" material.
Oh, yeah, and maybe take a little less holier-than-thou attitude in your posts
My filter isn't working!@!!@ I filtered out Jon Katz only, and he's still here!!!
ARGH, GO AWAY JON KATZ!
Cry.
Wonderful? This is the message I got:
Mediocre authors, listen up. Need to sell a book, any book, regardless of quality? Just buddy up to a web site with a large following. The site's readers will buy your book just because they recognize your name. Even the ones that think you're a jerk. They may like it, they may not, but at least they're buying!
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is very wonderful. Are we discerning individuals or indiscriminate name whores? I am not commenting on Katz's writing. I haven't read any of his work aside from the few articles I've seen on /. (To be honest, I haven't made it all the way through one of them.) I do know that, if all I have to look forward to from Jon Katz is a sales pitch (followed by a gloat session), I will definitely be filtering his articles. I'd think that someone who loves "the Web" as much as Katz claims to would be more disheartened about its increasing function as the mother of all advertising scams.
- someone who's been online nearly 20 years.
He was also on the Diane Rehm show the same day and you can listen to it in real audio. It should be permanently archived.
The C-SPAN link goes to someone from concerned women for america (who was after jon). This is the right link. And this is the link to listen to the Rehm show.
My gods, does no-one get the irony? I refer to all the other posts at the same level as this one, but above it. Read the original post again. Look for the sarcasm in it. Read the subject (which I have left intact). Whether the poster is pro-Katz, anti-Katz, or simply doesn't care, he/she obviously doesn't believe most of the stuff he wrote in his post. Nor does he want to read all the millions of Katz-flaming posts that spout such stuff as "Jon Katz can't spell - and he's a writer?", "Katz is such a wannabe - go away, Jon, until you've written your own kernel.", and so on.
He obviously knows that Jon never has and never will write a kernel, along with just about everyone else here.
He/she is simply creating a repository for all the anti-Katz flames, so that he doesn't have to read them scattered throughout the rest of this comment page.
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
Point well taken. Although I want to make one eentsy little comment.
Jonkatz' articles are clearly headlined "by Jon Katz" on the main Slashdot page.
Anti-Katz flames, while often are marked as such, sometimes are not. This one in particular wasn't. The subject was just "Time?", and it wasn't obvious before I opened it what it contained, anyway.
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
I think you forgot the "stuff that matters" part.
/. link, as a thank you to Rob for providing me (and the rest of you too, I guess he has enough bandwidth and horsepower that I can share ;-) with this site.
Some "Nerds" actually have an IQ bigger than their
shoe size, and care about something more than recompiling a kernel. For that matter, how many people outside of Linus have written a kernel?
Before thrashing his book, maybe you should read it. It's excellent.
As for the book not being relavant to slashdot, clearly that's not the case. According to the data, a lot of slashdotters (including myself) have bought it..
As for Rob making money off the book sales..
That only happens if you click on the Amazon's link from slashdot (it tells you he will make money if you do). You can go to the site directly, if you choose.
Also, Rob and the slashdot crew spend a lot of time and effort to allow us to use this site.
A site that obviously (due to its heavy usage) is greatly valued by many. A site we get to use for free. Why shouldn't he get something back? Particularly if you have the choice to circumvent this? I made a point of ordering the book through the
People, it's time we took a moment to think before we flame people. We wouldn't do it to the person's face, we shouldn't do it while hiding behind an e-mail address! It's just cowardly.
Ryan
I must say that I dont't quite understand the flaming here. No, Katz's book isn't strictly relevant to Linux - but then a lot of other things aren't either. Tunnel vision is a bad thing, I personally like the fact that /. doesn't single-mindedly focus on just the tech stuff. Especially since the new filter stuff allows you to never see the "non-tech" articles if they annoy you.
As for Katz: good for him! I think people read way too few books nowadays, and anything that promotes literacy is Good(tm). With the current emphasis on mass-market "bestsellers" and huge volumes, it's a very healthy sign that "small titles" can also find their niche. Besides, Jon's book actually is relevant to /. in a way, since the way he has handled the publication is a new way for writers to display their books. Sort of like MP3 is circumventing the big record labels, things like this might help non-bestseller authors survive. Or maybe not, but it is an interesting phenomenon.
Jon's book sounded interesting, so I ordered a copy through Amazon (haven't gotten it yet, it's coming in the same batch as Vinge's "A Deepness in the Sky", yum :). It's weird... I love high-tech toys, but on the other hand there is nothing quite like taking a backback and some camping gear and dissappearing into the backcountry for a few days with no high-tech whatsoever. If you've never tried it you should... waking up at 6am and just listening to the wind and the silence is an experience that's easy to scoff at, but quite something else when you're there yourself. I find myself fascinated by the combination of high-tech and outdoor life, and how they could work together - I live in Finland, and just about everyone is "mobile" in the data connection sense, and it's truly weird to sit at a campsite in Lapland and read your email with a Nokia Communicator. We live in a weird world:)
Some rambling thoughts from this part of the world...
huh? I thought by checking that box I'd rid myself of this.
This is my signature. There are many signatures like it but this one is mine..
I think there are some different wavelengths going on here. While many writers have said that, for them, the medium in which writing occurs affects the content of what is written, this does not exclude certain media from possibly being used to produce "art" or "professional writing." I can think of many textbooks which have been written on Unices, several of which would qualify as good professional writing (the rest of which would qualify as crap, grumble grumble). While some writers prefer to write in pencil rather than pen, on typewriter rather than computer, or in sand rather than Windows98, that does not mean that quality work *cannot* be produced in these media.
Perhaps your question is more along the lines of, "do any non-technical professional writers prefer to write their stuff on computers running Linux rather than other media?"
"Whatever happened to fair use?"
-- Duff-Man
It's C++, and incorrect C++ at that. Also, the string is weirdly formatted and grammatically incorrect. Try this:
#include "iostream.h"
int main (void) {
cout }
"Whatever happened to fair use?"
-- Duff-Man
The "less than" character gets eaten, even in "Plain Old Text" mode. Here we go in C, then:
#include
int main (void) {
printf ("English is too confusing. ");
printf ("Try writing a book in C.\n");
return (0);
}
"Whatever happened to fair use?"
-- Duff-Man
Rob! Fix the plain text stuff!
"Whatever happened to fair use?"
-- Duff-Man
char *mental_space;
mental_space = malloc(sizeof(your_puny_brain));
strcpy(mental_space, "Something intelligent.");
....
Segmentation fault (core dumped).
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
It's not the expression of opinion that is objectionable, but the use of personal attacks and hyperbole in place of any real thought. I do not really believe that it is the opinion of the above writer that any statement made that we are benefiting from Jon's writing is idolatry, yet he seems to say that it is.
Any real discussion of the merits or flaws in an article would be most welcome, but there's never any point in reading someone's futile attempt to say "I don't like it" in a more creative way. If that's all you have to say, then you have nothing to say.
There is enough of value posted here to make it worth the effort to wade through the garbage. But the garbage does get deep.
Information is not Knowledge
I don't want to live in a five-second-summary world.
That makes this Nerdworthy.
So here's a little support for a midlist author. The Connection on WBUR posts RealAudio files of their broadcasts. Shows are posted as soon as the broadcast is finished, and stay up for one week. Katz' interview should go up at 11AM on 3/16/99 and stay until 11AM on 3/23.
( Someone at The Connection must read
I haven't read Katz' book yet (and might not; the Salon review was pretty harsh), but it did lead me to pick up Thomas Merton's own book "Running to the Mountain". Katz has done me the service of pointing out an author I might never have read otherwise.
when you could simply read something else, and get on with your life? I've heard a lot of stupid crap about "he's not one of us"... what exactly does that mean? How are we going to legitimately insult a guy because he's not part of 'our' group? After all, this isn't high school anymore... Just because Jon Katz doesn't sit at out caffeteria table, there's no reason to post flame after flame, saying what a waste of time HE is. /. is for us, but it's the baby of Rob Malda. If you don't like it, don't read it, but don't start whining about how it's not good enough. If he wants to help out Katz, just ignore it if you feel the need.
And remember...
Do any actual scientists work here, or is it just one long game of truth or dare?
http://wut.rhps.org
You must be a student. Only in school is an author's output judged by weight, not by content. Asimov is honored not merely because he was prolific, but because he despite the volume of his work, he still had something to say in each one of them. If you're going purely by volume, you must think that 10,000 monkeys with keyboards can produce "better" prose than Shakespeare... or Katz, for that matter
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
...you can get Mr. Katz's book here .
-
BlackNova Traders
...you can get Mr. Katz's book here .
-
BlackNova Traders