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The Danger of License Termination Clauses
Ray Dassen writes "Bruce Perens has written " Is Your Software In Danger of Termination? ", a letter about the problem
of termination clauses such as those in the
licenses of
Jikes and Secure Mailer. "
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If this article is more than 3 minutes old I'm sure he's changed his mind since then.
BTW, Bruce, I still don't like you. But now, according to your logic, since I'm no longer an AC you have to respect my views.
Of course now that /. has dropped my login I'm an AC....
I own this comment. Even Rob says so at the bottom of this page:
"Comments are owned by the Poster"
So I have full rights over it. And I choose to lease this comment to Rob Malda to store on his server for a period of 24 hours from the time it is posted. After that Slashdot is ORDERED to delete it under penalty of a $500 per day fine which Rob Malda agrees to pay. Posting or reading this comment constitutes aggreement to the terms laid out here.
My boss has a "Live Free or Die.. UNIX" license plate, with the UNIX in big letters. I loved it from the moment I saw it. }:)
- =^o.o^=
Just a thought experiment. If I give my son the money to buy software while we're at CompUSA and he pays for and installs the software (Kids are so much better at this than a lot of us geezers). Is he bound by the licensing of the software? It's my understanding that minors CANNOT enter into contracts NO MATTER WHAT, here in the US anyway. If Microsoft, etc. are truly interested in making these shrinkwrap agreements legally binding, then shouldn't that copy of 98 have a "Must be over 18 to purchase" sticker on it? Just more proof that software licenses are not worth the paper they're written on.
>You post anonymously, you can't collect.
:)
The anonymous still have rights. F'rinstance, you cannot legally take someone's anonymous writings (or software), claim it as your own, and make money off of it.
As for collecting... auction houses somehow manage to get money and transfer bought items to anonymous bidders all the time. The anonymous party just gets someone to act on their behalf.
Now to demonstrate, I'm going to send Louie and Rock to work your knees.
Capa de Copos. AC of AC's.
Employees or contractees are prohibited from incorporating GNU/Open Source software into any of our company's products or installing on any company owned machines. I kid you not! Fscking lawyers!
Course there's the problem of where to send the
money... I mean who's to say which AC it is?
Swiss bank acct #yadayadayada
Err, but can you prove you are the AC who "owns"
the original post? Or do we all just get cash...
I am encouraged that someone else has finally taken the time to read the license agreement that comes with IBM's "Open Source" products.
A while back, I posted a notice of a security hole in the access-control of PostFix (vmailer) which would allow spammers to use one's server to relay, in spite of the filters against such a thing. (I was told that this was a feature not a bug, which is laughable, but that is not pertinent here). I was harrassed because I had not informed IBM/Venema about this problem. The reason I did not do so was because the license agreement for the software indicated that any fixes or bug reports I made became property of IBM. Therefore, my security bug report would become their property - they might claim the right that I tell no one else!
I may work for free at times, but I don't give me services out for free to corporations who should otherwise pay for them. Especially corporations who have the deep pockets to pay people to develop software that they can give away. I would not work for IBM for free.
THanks, I'll stick with sendmail and qmail.
There are situations where termination is a real concern. But you have to look at it on a case-by-case basis.
A workmate tried to install a non-open source program on our production server. Well... he was fired. This is against the company's security policy. Not everyone is a prisioner of lawyers...
I agree these licence clauses is'nt good for the OSS community. Why would a OSS developer spend hours of hard work on open-source software with this kind of licence then it can be terminated
by the company.
The boards say "Please drive with courtesy, it's the New Hampshire way", at least around the corner of NH I live in (SE). As a matter of fact, you are not required to use seatbelts in New Hampshire, so I guess the boards do not say anything about seatbelts. OTOH the boards around here tell you to buckle up if you leave NH since you're entering a state where you have to fasten seatbelts (Maine or Massachusetts).
Minors can enter into contracts. However, there are a few things to remember. The minor can void the contract at any time, until they reach adulthood, and within a "reasonable" time after they reach adulthood.
To make it eaven more interesting, minors cannot void contracts involving necessities, ie. food, place to live, transportation, etc. I don't feel the courts would view software as a necessity. I believe a case that involved a minor who had purchased a truck in Kansas may apply here. The minor returned the truck after blowing the engine, wanting to void the contract. The court ruled that the minor could void the contract, but he must pay for the use that he had of it (rent) plus the damages he caused (blown engine.)
Since you would have given him the money, MS could possibly argue that you had actually purchased the software. It would be interesting to see.
Of course there will be companies that will
be hard nosed about things. That's fine. Hard
nosed-companies are a drag to work for anyways,
correct? I'm not suggesting quiting *now* but..
When looking for your next job, inquire about
their policies on free software. After a few
years of this I bet the demographic differences
the free and non-free shops will be remarkable.
Life's too short to work for assholes.
The contract that IBM has with Microsoft basically prevented IBM from loading OS/2 onto their computers. IBM was scared of being cut off from the standard OS for personal use. Os/2 is great but it never really went anywhere.
I didn't install my GNU software. My automatic package installer did. I didn't tear open any license.
Does this mean I am not bound by the license?
The GPL seemingly contradicts itself. First it says activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside of its scope then it goes on to talk about these activities that are outside of its scope. Both cannot be true. Is running a program outside the scope of the GPL or not? Is output covered or not? It says those activities are outside the scope of the License.
Traps everywhere...
Good thing there is someone with his eyes open!
Good point.
Assuming you meant lost a lawsuit rather than prosecuted, because prosecuted makes no sense when talking of license, then ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, 86 F.3d 1447 (7th Cir. 1996). shows that your claim is wrong. Some has indeed been sued and lost for violating a shrinkwrap license.
Most law review articles I've seen on the subject also seem to think that UCC 2-207 applies.
No court would disallow you from using the program based on that part of the GPL. Prior usage shows that it can be used, and that is what matters to courts.
Almost all legal licenses are ambiguous, the GPL is no exception (though the BSD &c might be.)
Bzip2 has gone from the GPL to a much less restrictive BSD-like license.
My guess would be that this would be a federal matter for two reasons:
a) patents are regulated by the federal goverment
b) since IBM is the distributor "shipping" software to other state I suspect this falls under Interstate Commerce which is also a federal matter.
As an aside, I think IBM's home is in Armonk, NY.
I don't think this would fly. I think that the code as a whole would be considered infringing/tainted unless it could be proven that the infringing code was in a dynamic plug-in or dll that wasn't necessary to use the code product.
Also, since IBM is considered a deep pocket, the liability is pretty big. A claimant might ask for $300 million in damages and get it because the jury felt that IBM as a big company can afford it
That was well put Bruce. While I don't agree with every position GNU takes, I do respect your opinion and especially the effort you and RMS take to keep Open Source on the right track.
Thank you,
John Waalkes
jwaalkes@edge.net
No, it's an exception, not a contradiction. It's saying that there are no restrictions on the output UNLESS they constitute part of the program itself.
the plates I got from linuxworld say that too. But linux is the big lettering.
In 1984 - wasn't it IBM who started a policy called "Object Code Only" - I think I saw a reference to this in the publication "The computer glossary" - probably around 1990 edition. Anyone have this?
Anyway, that was some time ago, but I believe the gist of it was that before this policy, they used to ship the source with the programs.
Companies like to keep their stuff proprietary.
That's how they make money in the old business model.
New Hampshire is the only state I know of with liquor stores right on the highway, with their very own exit/entry ramps.
I guess you can Live Free AND Die, if you want, all in one place.
But did he get money? Just because someone did that doesn't mean he has any laws on his side.
This line is free.
Reading this line costs $50.
Put a sign on your front door: Walking across my property to my front door was free, walking across my property again will cost $50. How much money do you think you'll get from people who need to walk across your property to leave?
I've evaluated your posting and find it rather lacking. Further slashdot posting evaluations will cost $500/posting.
For an example of what an yanked license looks like, just surf on out to :
...I thought not.
http://www.trumpet.com/ftp.html
I know... not the same thing as the IBM and apple offertings, but stil...
I know... so fscking what... trumpet winsock shit, but still...
If the clause was put in the contract, then it's in there for a reason... to be used.
--ever noticed how you can't feel your nose after a few beers... ever noticed how weird a different brand of beer tastes after three of the same (and you can't feel your nose)... ever noticed how quickly the new beer tastes "OK" after a few sips? ever noticed how an altered state is only interesting with reference to a "normal" (straight) base line?
http://okinawa.acadiau.ca
If this were true, then there would not be so much panic over old software which is not Y2K compliant
Cute idea. The license on the article is so closed that the license disappears with the item it is protecting.
This article is covered by the Anonymous Coward Closed License. This article must be deleted seven hours after posting or a fee of U.S. $500 per day paid to the FSF.
The termination clause we are worried about does
not require that the lawsuit be successful, so
that's all irrelevant. It doesn't even require
that there be a lawsuit at all.
Nope, that rider won't work. It exposes any company which uses programs under that license to loss if anyone triggers that clause on any one program.
For example, the MP3 dispute mentioned recently. If I stole MP3 code and put it under such a scorched-earth license, when the company which I stole the code from got my program then they could not sue me without triggering loss of all their other trojan-bombed licenses.
Or a blackmailer could threaten to trigger the license bombs...
Someone in a reply mentioned Postfix. I'll mention it here at the top level of the replies so the Subject line is visible.
The Postfix program also is under the "Secure Mailer License". It contains the same clause.
I did see it. I accepted it. Postfix is what I wanted (although if you telnet to my system's SMTP port you'll see Postfix lying to you because I configured it to identify itself as a Sendmail system to stump the script kiddies).
If I lose Postfix then I'll choose another mailer program at that time. There are alternatives, and as long as I choose one which does not keep the customer's mail in a proprietary form then I can convert between them.
The Supreme Court has shown no indication that they plan to overturn this decision (which they could do under every law student's constitutional nightmare, the commerce clause). I am not sure they have been provided an opportunity to do so, but I would not hold your breath.
While it is technically only LAW in the 7th circuit, when other circuits are presented with the same issue they will look to see if any other court has decided the issue. Usually the first circuit to make the decision ends up influencing the other circuit courts. In addition, the 7th circuit is a very influential court (especially where commerce is involved, the 7th and 2d are quite important), and Easterbrook is well-respected.
In other words, look for other courts to follow suit (no pun intended).
Your package installer is. Since you are the legal guardian of your package installer you are responsible when it runs amok. Isn't this fun? ;-)
Minors, for example, may not disaffirm contracts for "necessities." The common-law rule that minors may disavow/disaffirm/negate/otherwise wiggle out of contracts has been modified a great deal. The "defense" continues to erode as kids get more sophisticated and there are more and more situations where such a defense is deemed inappropriate.
To get nitpicky, in the given example the money used to purchase the software belonged to Mom and Dad, not to Kid. The contract is arguably between Mom and Dad and Microsoft, not Kid and Microsoft. (This same principle creates problems for lawyers where their fees are paid by someone other than their client.)
Thanks, Bruce for raising this issue again. This problem was discussed extensively when the "Open Source" Jikes license was first announced, but the free software community needs to be reminded about these problems from time to time.
IBM itself can easily arrange for its own license to be contested by a subsidiary or any friendly, related company in which it has an interest. The termination clause then gives them grounds to revoke the license at any time, for any reason, if they decide that they've received enough free help in developing Jikes, and want to start making money off it. IBM's a huge company, with its finger in a lot of pies, so I don't think this would be hard to orchestrate. Only a complete fool would knowingly volunteer their time and effort to a project offering such flimsy guarantees.
Unfortunately, most programmers, being technically oriented, have an aversion to the law and legal documents -- this plays right into the hands of companies like IBM, who are eager for a chance to exploit the potential for skilled, free labour in developing their proprietary products. The easiest way to do this is to offer an interesting technology under a license which:
1) Satisfies the letter of the OSD, but not the spirit behind it -- this provides the bait, and confers a possible marketing advantage (if Open Source(tm) branding ever becomes worth anything).
2) Is incompatible with most other licenses, particularly the GPL -- this fragments and weakens the free software community (always a potential competitor) and has the added advantage of ensuring that all the benefits of any volunteer work only flow upstream to the corporate sponsor of that particular project/product, and not to their potential competitors (ironically, they're almost always called "public" licenses!)
All the corporate-sponsored licenses i've seen (NPL, QPL, Jikes, ad nauseum) work like this. We'll see a lot more in future, and unfortunately, it's likely that there will be some people who will contribute time and effort to these Open Source(tm) projects, only to have their work snatched away. Wise developers will work on (L)GPLed projects only, and avoid getting burned!
Finally, I don't see why so many people here are quick to believe that IBM is committed to the free software community. Any company that intends to use the worst sort of proprietary mechanism - software patents - to extort $1 Billion a year from other developers (proprietary or otherwise) clearly has a different agenda. We're merely being toyed with.
Alex Berkman
I don't get it. SPA can enforce laws no more than the ACM can fine you for using GOTO statements.
Hey buddy, old Brucie boy is just an AC as you
/Bruce/About/ was not found on this server."
are! Look at his half ass not finished homepage.
Dead links and all. First thing I did was click
on his "About Bruce Perens" link and guess what?
"Not Found
The requested URL
So much for information on this guy. Its too easy
to give a fake name and well crafted email front.
Gee I could should make a username under "bruce
Perens" or "bruce p". Hell we all should!
And this guy is such a representive of the Linux
community that he gets articles posted? Putting a
link to a page that is half done and hardly
polished looks sooooo bad.
AC and proud!
Plus with the source availible you can see the old design errors better so It gives you a better opportunity to avoid them.
That's an excellent idea for GPL v.3! Software patents are a serious threat to free software, and I see no reason why we should necessarily allow people to use our software if they engage in such anti-social acts as to sue other free software developers.
Morally, patents are an entirely unacceptable way to control software, and the fact that they appear to be legal doesn't change this. I can think of no circumstance under which suing someone for software patent infringement would be morally right, therefore there would never be anything morally wrong with terminating the licenses of such (ab)users. In any case, each copyright holder would still be free to make that decision for themselves. I'd word your proposal a little differently though:
The copyright holder(s) may terminate your license to use this software in the event that you initiate a patent infringement suit against authors of any software licensed under the GPL or LGPL.
In many ways this would give the GPL a strategic advantage, by making it more attractive to commercial developers. Many companies feel they need to patent their ideas in order to preempt other companies from doing the same. By distributing under a GPL containing the above clause, they would get a different, and much more useful type of protection than what patents offer (all at no cost) -- anyone actually trying to enforce a patent against the creator of GPLed works could risk having the rights to all their GPLed code revoked. As the use of Linux and other GPLed software spreads, this would become too great a risk for many companies to take.
We might still have patents, but they would be effectively neutralized for free software developers (but *not* for proprietary developers) -- no one would dare try to enforce them. This makes the business case for GPLing the software you create even stronger.
Please post your idea to gnu.misc.discuss, and send a copy to the fsf -- this proposal is much too important to languish and be forgotten on SlashDot!
Norman Petry
npetry at sk sympatico ca
Actually, I'd say it's just a clarification... deriving output from the program itself would constitute copying the program (or a part of it), wouldn't it? That directly relates to copying, which the license does not say is not covered.
I heard that they can enter into contracts, but they can pull out at any time. --- mjt
-----------
-----------
100% pure freak
In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License.
---
Part of the punizhment??
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
... most free software licenses are silent on the issue of termination. I'm to lazy to look it up, but IIRC the GPL itself says nothing on the topic. One of the changes I would like to see is a clause stating that the license is "perpetual and non-cancellable". What would happen if someone announced they were terminating the GPL license on their code? I don't believe this has been tested in court.
I disagree with Bruce about the termination clause in the Jikes license making the software non-free. It says that if an intellectual property claims "appears likely" then blah, blah, blah. It does not say that IBM gets to decide what qualifies as likely. They could claim that, but unless it could be proven true in court, I don't think they will be successful at terminating the license. This is far from letting the license be terminated at IBM's whim.
Yes, but that does not address the question of whether or not the copyright holder can unilaterally terminate the license. It only defines bad behavior the licensee can engage in that results in termination.
Didn't the Pine developers at Wash U. try to retroactively revoke their free license when that project went proprietary? Do you know what happened with that.
Also says this on their license plates. But what about the guys in the state penitentiary who are actually making those plates...? ;)
Please, please, let's not force a split in GPL... using it as a stick to beat Bad People with is a truly horrible idea. It is _important_ that the main idea the GPL conveys is to extend freedom of ideas and communication- withholding it only from those who would attempt to close that particular code.
It's very clear in this.
'may' terminate? 'initiate' a patent infringement suit? 'open source' software? Man, that's so unclear it's solid fog.
What you want is 'If you sue the author of any GPLed software for patent infringement, your license to use any GPLed software is revoked'. _That_ is clear. But I still don't want it because it's been damned hard enough to get people to appreciate the GPL already, without vengeful riders tacked on. Leave it _alone_.
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
I don't think you need written ack.
Here's why (I believe I found this at junkbuster.org): In order to get rid of junk mail, this guy set himself up a "company" (just filed the papers and forms, but didn't hire anyone) called something like "Ad Effectiveness 'R Us". When he'd get junk mail from people he'd send them back a letter saying "This is your free trial evaluation: I've reviewed your ad and found it to be somewhat effective. Further evaluations will be invoiced at $500/item. Receipt of further items by me will be taken as acknoledgement that you want a non-free eval."
Anyway, you see my point. The junk mailer doesn't have to specifically acknowledge the deal, they just have to have been notified that any future behavior will be interpreted as acknowledgement.
Posted by AnnoyingMouseCoward:
*Damn*, I hate saying that, it's just so incredibly *lame*!
But yes, I agree totally. The point is
1). Stick with GPL'd code whenever possible.
2). Only use code which is licensed under an arrangement other that the GPL if you have an overwhelming reason to do so ( and preferably only if you have a planned emergency exit plan as well ). In short - read the fine print and pay a lawyer to check it. It will save you a lot of grief.
These days, most programmers doen't see much that's really bad about IBM and feel that they should be given the benifet of the doubt.
Sorry, but I remember the days ( late 80's ) when IBM meant IncontinentBowelMovement ( and a whole host of other insulting, derogetory terms ).
Right now, IBM is acting as the great crusader of open source ( BWHAHAHA! ). Don't believe a word of it.
Just 39 years of extreme cynisism gang.
"vmailer isn't targetted at qmail users anyway -- it's targetted at sendmail users. "
This isn't the way it comes across to me. From much of the Vmailer/Postfix/Secure Mailer documentation I get the impression it was always meant as a direct, targeted, Qmail killer.
--
Xenu loves you!
The copyright holder(s) may terminate your license to use this software in the event that you initiate a patent infringement suite against authors of any Open Source software.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
I believe the liquor stores are there because NH has no sales tax and attracts customers from the neighboring states. Putting the liquor store on the highway makes it more convienient for the out-of-staters, and also would attract through travelers.
Also, I believe NH was the first state to have a state lottery.
What this does protect is output created by the program's user with the aid of the program, as opposed to derived from the program. If I make an image in Gimp, the image does not fall under the GPL; if I compile a program with gcc, that program is not necessarily GPLed.
The conflict you see is that at one point the GPL says that usage is not restricted, then goes on to describe a case in which usage (or the output thereof) is covered by the license.
I'd hold that this case - the case in which someone uses a GPL program to output information derived from the program itself, rather than created or processed from non-GPL sources, such as system status or user input - falls under "copying" much more so than "usage." The user is using the program to copy itself, or a part of itself, and so the new copy falls under the GPL. It's the same thing, essentially, as if I use GNU cp to copy a GPL-covered source file - the new file still falls under the GPL, despite being the output of a GPLed program.
The issue now is whether 'falling outside the scope' of the license is the same as 'not restricted.' I'd have to say that it is. All software licenses are restrictive in nature, designed to take rights away from the do-anything-you-feel-like body of rights enjoyed by users of truly public domain software. The GPL is no exception; it takes away your freedom to take away the freedom of others. It restricts your right to proprietarize the software. The whole scope of a software license is restrictive, not liberating. The point of copyleft is to take the restrictive nature of a software license and create something that will be forever liberated.
So, if something is not restricted by a license, then it follows that that act falls outside the scope of the license. If the license says "not restricted" to some act, then it is in fact placing that act outside its restrictive scope.
I see no conflicts here, and I'd be interested to learn the reasoning behind a policy that would ban installations of GNU GPL-covered software.
With the turnover rate of software being what it is, there isn't much danger of turnover clauses kicking users out of college and home. If licenses don't already go ignored, people usually shelve the software after a couple years anyway and move on to better things like work, marriage, kids, overtime. At least my software anyway.
Opening a package or clicking buttons does not constitute a contract and no one has *ever* been prosecuted for violating these types of licenses. All the "software raids" you hear about every now and then about company X having Y thousand copies of unlicensed software are busted because they stole (no new laws here) or because they violated NDAs (bearing real signatures on real paper) not because they violated meaningless shrink wrap agreements.
You're SOOO right. It's a CYA maneouvre (sp?)
IBM has been so amazingly behind open source recently that it blows me away. They most definitely possess those who can hack(TM).
They have also been excellent net-heads, embracing apache, and linux as well.
They function in an insane world where any fool with a lawyer can create a load of grief for them. A nice boilerplate defensive license makes perfect sense.
Brak: What's THAT?
Thundercleese: A light switch.. of TOTAL DEVASTATION!
Have you ever been within smelling distance of a lawsuit? If not, read, for example, coverage of the Microsoft suit the DoJ's prosecuting.
I have a number of friends who are lawyers (and actually have working consciences!), and get the inside scoop from them about the operation of the law. As P. J. Plauger observed in an Embedded Systems Programming column, anytime you go to court, you've lost, regardless of the merits of your case.
If we accept licenses that allow courts to decide what the license language means (as a primary function, not just as secondary to deciding whether the license has been violated), we're signing our own death warrant. Anyone with a few bucks to rub together can bring all development to a complete halt at any time for any project using such a license.
I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one. -- desert rain on http://www.dailykos.com/user/
I haven't seen any evidence that qmail is losing market share to vmailer. vmailer isn't targetted at qmail users anyway -- it's targetted at sendmail users.
-russ
Yup, you are right.
Shrinkwraps are only legal in the 7th circuit. If it gets to the supreme court, it'll get overturned.
-russ
Then quit. A little spine can only do you good.
--Joakim Ziegler
with IBM. this is a behomoth that has been known to cut off it's own arm just to piss off it's one good leg.
the ibm PC company refused to even preload OS/2 because it was in bed with MS and OS/2 threatened that relationship. the infighting involved between the software and hardware sides of ibm in past years is stupifying.
look forward 5 years. assuming MS gets off easy again with DoJ (not a leap is it?) and they get their iron fist around the pc world even further.... do you think for a second that some IBM suit won't trade away the yikes and/or any other wishy-washy licensing scheme for a big chunk o' microsoft pie?
i'm not saying ibm is gonna betray (honestly or dishonestly) the open source community due to such licenses this thread concerns, but don't rule out anything.
if there is a loophole, expect it will be exploited. and this loophole is pretty damn large.
Dont be fooled by other "Open-Sores" licneses that claim to be free. Use only 100% genuine GNU-GPL licensed software on your systems.
Freedom is worth far more than all of Bill Gate's M$ stock.
Live Free or Die (New Hampshire state motto).
The hardworking inmates at New Hamshire Correctional Industries are ready to meet all your license plate and signage requirements. They do far more than license plates these days. www.state.nh.us/nhci/index.html
I agree with Bruce's general point, but developers can easily attach copyrights/license terms to THEIR additions to such products and ensure that the likes of an IBM would be in the position of having to stop THEIR distribution becuse of ...
the GPL
The current UCC proposal makes shrinkwrap and clickwrap agreements binding. i think the Communications of the ACM had a big story about it a few months back.
Basically the current UCC proposal looks really bad for consumers, but very good for vendors. (big surprise there, I know).
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
But, even if we don't argue that point, contesting the likelyhood of a claim is an extremely weak defense. It's so easy for anyone to enter a claim in court that you'd never succeed in preserving your license from termination that way. Suppose, for example, that someone served process on IBM. That's cheap to do, and it would be incontestable evidence of a claim.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Rob didn't post it. His automatic software did. He didn't tear open any license.
Bruce Perens.
We should encourage Dan B. to put a better license on Qmail, especially now that it's losing market share to Secure Mailer. But Dan is very stubborn, and he's resisted this plea before.
Bruce Perens.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
It's definitely the case for commercial software. A major point of Free Software / Open Source is that the software lives longer.
Bruce Perens.
I would not have written this article if I thought the only worthwhile strategy was for us to turn our back on IBM and other large companies. It's not time to burn our bridges.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
The fact that Sendmail continues to be maintained only assures us that its competition will be better, because we won't accept less from a new product than we can already from Sendmail!
Surely, both KDE and GNOME are both better for their competition, and we are better off because we have a choice between two products.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I think Stallman was once considering something like this. I don't know if he still is.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
How do you feel about that provision as it exists today in the NPL draft?
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Perhaps what the poster really demonstrated was that Rob should include in his terms and conditions a statement to the effect that all submitted material is placed in the public domain by the poster, and that consequently the poster loses any rights which he may have held over the material prior to the act of posting.
Without that, Rob could have a nightmare on his hands.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
You can subscribe to the Jikes license mailing list:
echo subscribe \
| mail jikes-license-subscribe@watson.ibm.com
I read the entries from time to time, and forward them as appropriate.
By the way, we are aware of of the concerns re the termination clause.
dave
http://www.ibm.com/research/jikes
Aargh...got address wrong: try
echo subscribe | \
jikes-license-request@watson.ibm.com
dave
You can e-mail me directly, or submit a note to the jikes-license list. The latter is preferred, as this is in full public view, and is archived, so you can retrieve what others have said about this and other topics.
Subscribe by
echo subscribe \
| mail jikes-license-request@watson.ibm.com
dave
Maybe the company is trying to protect themselves and their investments?
Yes, you own the comment and may be held accountable for any libelous statements that you make. This legal disclaimer is simply to protect /. The recent case involving Yahoo and Raytheon is of interest in this regard.
As for your penalty, one would need the written acknowledgment of Rob for it to be binding. OTOH, you can copyright your post to this public forum, thereby placing limits on any further repostings on another site.
IBM has done nothing more than give a fair warning here. Admittedly their language is vague, but its not IBM but the courts who would get to decide what constituted 'reasonably available' or a real change of an IP suit against them. In terms of the products concerned the chances of such a thing happening are almost nil.
Consider what would happen if a GPL'd product were found to violate some patent - the courts would insist of the deletion of all copies (or the payment of royalties) there as well.
There is a legal world beyond what it says in the license. Just because the GPL doesn't say anything about what would happen in the case of patent infringement doesn't mean it won't
Section 4 of the GPL says that your license is terminated if you violate it, but the termination affects only the violator:
The GPL addresses this point. You can refuse to accept the GPL. If you do, then you get the default under copyright law: no right to modify, no right to redistribute. See section 5 of the GPL.
You seem to think that the default, if you refuse to accept the license, is public domain. The law does not work that way. By default, if you have a legal copy of a copyrighted program, you can run it and make one backup copy, but you can't give it to anyone else and you can't make derivative works based on it (e.g. copy a piece into a different program).
NH is the only state that DOES NOT have a seatbelt law, EXCEPT for children under 12. The sign probably read something like "Children under 12 must have seatbelts fastened" followed by "Common sense for all". I live a mile from the NH border and have seen such signs
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
I assume you are referring to the hard stuff.
NH allows beer and wine to be sold in grocery stores, which is a rare site in the Northeast.
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
For a corporate giant like IBM, even the existing license is incredibly risky and innovative. Yeah, a bunch of us have things that we don't like about the license, but if people start flaming them, they'll retreat into their shell, pull the products, and write off the open-source "experiment" as a failure. I don't want that to happen.
/. geek.
If you don't like the license, and (this is important) you're in a job where this license affects which products you use, join the IBM license discussion list, and suggest changes that would placate you while allowing the IBM suits to cover their backsides.
IBM isn't offering things like Jikes because they've found Stallman's religion. They're doing it because, hopefully, they'll impress the programmers and sysadmins out there, who'll decide that maybe they should take a closer look at IBM's commercial offerings. This is how reality works. Most people need real jobs where they make money. Most companies need to sell stuff like hardware and software. We can take advantage of this. If they think that giving out code makes them look good, and maybe, in some nebulous way, increases sales, we can get some great free code. If we can convince them that with some teeny little license changes, they'd look much cooler (and maybe that'd lead to more sales), they're more likely to do it.
Don't spook the suits. They're not as thick-skinned as the average
--
Words like 'likely,' 'substantially,' 'reasonable,' 'reasonably likely,' 'may,' 'might,' 'could,' 'probable...' the list goes on...
This type of language in a license renders it vague from the parties' points of view.
This means that to end the license would require courts and a jury to decide whether the relevant facts of the case fit into the box that the language in question seeks to make.
'Revocation will occur when event X occurs.' This is an example of concrete legalese.
'Revocation will occur if event X becomes reasonably likely.' This is vague legalese designed to give the licensor discretion (read leeway) to decide when to sue.
To avoid vague legalese, be sure that the license speaks in terms of 'will,' 'becomes definite,' 'is' etc. Instead of likelihoods, it should speak in terms of definite contingencies.
If one is careful of this, then the licensor and licensee can be sure when a term is violated or not.
Here is a simple test that one should apply to any term or provision in a license: "How many different ways can I violate this provision?" The closer the number gets to 1, the better.
Cheers!
Minority/Infancy is a defense to contract.
If a child under 18 enters into contract, and is later sued for breach of that contract, the minor child can assert minority as an absolute defense.
Alternatively, a minor child may disaffirm a contract at any time. This is usually performed by a writing on the minor's behalf, or in court with a motion to set aside the transaction.
That is the case on point.
Shrink wraps and click-buttons are now enforceable. BE VERY AFRAID!
Regardless of what you may think of Bruce Perens, he has hit the nail on the head. Most of us will concede that IBM means well, but nonetheless they have written a license that has unlimited downside risk for the end-user.
They have written a license with a clause that is not acceptable in free software---one which provides a strong disincentive to the end-user to get involved. No one says IBM has to play free software, but if they do, they should get some idea of the rules.
Rob Levin, Head of Operations
Open Projects Net
"Open source, open technology, open information"
smithdog wrote: Allegedly found on a state sign welcoming motorists to New Hampshire:
Sucks to be you.
Now, people with logins...
-- ultra1
Well, two can play the quoting game:
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of
running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program
is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the
Program (independent of having been made by running the Program).
Whether that is true depends on what the Program does.
It is plain enough for me: the act of running the program is not restricted. The additional restriction to output produced by the program applies only to output that is a derivative if the program. Makes sense: you wouldn't want to make sensitive corporate information that is the output of some random GPLed program freely redistributable. OTOH if that output is work based upon said program that should be redistributable as per the GPL (the GPL is recursive!).
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
Hi all..
:). it really was quite well argued, and makes good sense to a "reasonable" person that considers both sides.
surprisingly, i actually agree with their assessment of this case (even though the point was well made in the first 3 paragraphs but numerous pages followed
what's interesting to me is that the primary assertion is that the consumer has the opportunity to review the "shrink-wrap" license, and subsequently, if they refuse to enter the agreement, they have the opportunity to return the product, etc. if they choose to use the product after review, they've consented.
now, since that was a significant component of their argument, most likely being one of the most important factors in convincing the judge, how does this impact microsoft's recent slithering to get the EULA changed to avoid this "out-clause"?
this is a very interesting point to me...
would it continue to be defensible in federal court with this arguably critical concept absent?
your thoughts?
Peter
Section 0 is ambiguous, very ambigous:
:-(
The second part of section 0 first says:
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope.
Which might make what follows completely useless:
The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does.
As it previously said those activities aren't coverd by the license... Or, in other words - you're free to copy it but have no right to use it... IANAL but I don't consider their fears completely without cause...
I certainly don't claim that a court of law would judge it this or that way, I simply don't know
Erik
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
--- Jubal Harshaw
The argument is:
"Where does it say that I may use a GPLed program"
Nowhere in the GPL v2 does it say:
"You may use the program"
It only says:
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License;
So it depends on the local law wether or no you may actually use the program... Yes you have the rights to the 'output', but do you actually have the right to create such output? I certainly don't know. If I'd actually own a copy I'd be certain that I could use it freely, but it doesn't say that I own any copies on my disk -- It only deals in how I may modify and/or redistribute it! The normal case is that you don't own the software, you only license it. And the GPL doesn't say anything about owning/licensing the copy.. Again, I don't claim that it would hold in any sane court -- just that the GPL is more ambigous that it needs to be.
Erik
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
--- Jubal Harshaw
Claim that you bought a copy that is, if you actually owned the software you'd be allowed to do pretty much everything except copy it, i.e. dissasemble etc... If they did it they would loose much power over their customers.
Erik
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
--- Jubal Harshaw
Anybody have ibm email address we can express our dissatisfaction with this kind of license to?
Uh, I would think twice before touting prolonged software life
as a positive thing. Regular redesign from ground up is like a
prostate exam: it's a pain but it's good for you.
Sendmail??? Doesn't need redesign from ground up? Sendmail???
The way I understood the original post was that by the time IBM
(or ingeneral copyright holder) decides to revoke its license, the
software will be obsolete anyway. And even if it weren't yet obsolete,
a OSS rewrite of revoked code would still be a good refresher for the code.
I further think that the threat of license revocation will force programmers
not to depend too deeply on that package in their software, thus
encouraging modular design. So in the grand scheme of things (i.e. ignoring
how much effort goes into programming), such licenses may not be too bad.
That depends on whether or not the software needs a redesign. One of the advantages of open-source is that, given the number of people working on a piece of software, design decisions that make it hard to maintain and/or extend get found and eliminated early in it's life. The result is software that doesn't suffer nearly as badly from rot as changes are made. The canonical examples would be BIND or the nigh-immortal sendmail
What would you change about sendmail's design? Yes the config file syntax is a bear. That's not a result of the program's design. Having had to hack local mods into sendmail's code before, I find it relatively easy to do so. To me, that's the ultimate criteria for a good design: someone who wasn't part of the design team finds it easy to modify the program.
Sounds like the fine folks at Corcraft, the New York prison industries. (I wonder if they develop open-source software for pennies on the dollar compared to private sector.)
See http://www.corcraft.gov/ for more.
Gleepy the Hen. More intelligent than the average hen.
Bruce asked for suggestions on how honest people can cooperate on open-source development without nasty surprizes; and you've got to clutter up the discussion with a pathetic attempt to cheat owners of proprietary software. sigh. it is not like *alternatives*to*proprietary*software do not exist. now stop cluttering up this discussion.
this is what a lot of programmers said in the Sixties and Seventies: "it is okay to use 2-digit dates because by the time year 2000 rolls around, our company will have junk this silly program long since.
Wouldn't it help - in a more general way - to
convince polititians that free software is
in public interest.
Imagine some of the United Nations institutions
officialy acknowledging
"Free Software is something that should be
treated in a way (by state laws) that its special
benefits for the society are considered".
So copyright laws should state that someone
violating copyrights with free software
cannot be made to pay big bucks - even
if he is ibm. He clearly should be stopped
infringing this copyright, but thats another
matter.
There should be other ways to protect programmers
of free software from being crunched in court by
big companies like charities who help in paying
lawyer costs (does something like that exist?).
Companies like ibm etc. should be aware that
donating for such things could do more for linux
and gnu and free programming than investing in
linux-companies (which is good too).
I fear the day when some company goes to court
and gets the judge to rule "ok, i don't know
if they are right, but we stop distribution of
the linux kernel until we get a final decision
(which will be in two years)".
OTOH, who will have the money to prosecute
violation of the GPL, BSDL, LGPL?
Ask him.. :)
Freedom's just another word for nothing left Tolouse.
--
Beef
"Raging Moderate" of the
Actually, Rob could start charging for storage time.
Wouldn't THAT be funny.
Zagmar
I agree. The agreement has very little to do with the general "Gnu/Gpl" concept at all. How can this be accepted into any free software scene is beyond me. Atleast, why anyone would bother on HELPING IBM develop on their source, is just unthinkable. And then, isn't it all kinda redundant to release it as "open source" ??
i agree completely, to accept a faulty liscense because it is well intentioned is insanity. stick to the gpl (though i do worry about the version n or later once rms dies (do idealists die?)).
My blog
From personal (painful) experience, minors can enter into contract - however, the parents or legal guardian is responsible for the terms of the contract being settled - in other words, your son can save up his pennies for two years, go buy Win98, put it on your system, loan it to the rest of his 5th grade class, and sell it at the local Pawn - and you get to be the one paying the SPA's fines.
OTOH, if he turns out to make a great actor, you get to manage where his money goes...
-Yert
Truck driver, plumber, Linux systems engineer.
This shows the stupidity of software patents. After all, if you can't patent the software, then nobody can claim that they had the idea for X first... You can still copyright your program. you just can't patent the algorithm behind it.
:-)
Of course us You-Rope-Ians currently have the right idea.
-- Under/Overrated is meta-moderation, and therefore is Redundant.
The point of an indemnification is that it prevents someone else from sueing you over whatever is being indemnified. In this particular case, what IBM is promising is to prevent that from occuring but since this is free software, they will not go beyond that.
If a person(s) sue IBM sucessfully over an intellectual property issue then the normal remedy in the case of a sucessful suit is the revocation of all existing software licenses unless the infringer agrees to make sutiable payments. There is no necessitity that the winner of such a suit agrees to license the property so that exisiting licenses can be maintained. Moreover, if such a suit were sucessful, without an indemnity from IBM every user of the property would be liable for damages and be prohibited from using the software. What IBM's license does it to prevent such secondary suits from occuring, e.g. you cannot be sued for a infringement under IBM's license.
This is actually better than most open source software. One more thing, in a contract the word "reasonable" has special meaning - in this case it means that unless the plaintiff has enough evidence to get a injunction issued IBM will not terminate the license.
I think IBM means well here. What they need
is an alternate way to protect themselves
against patent infringement violations and
the resulting liability.
Perhaps something along the lines of:
"if a party other than IBM is found by a
(what jurisdiction?) court to hold a patent
which applies to this software, then that
party may require IBM to pay fees for use
thereof. In this case, IBM may elect to
terminate this license."
This reduces the problem by:
1) Eliminating IBM itself from being
the hypothetical antagonist.
2) Requiring a court to demonstrate that
IBM is in violation before proceeding.
I think that realistically (1) is unlikely
since IBM is sincerely contributing to the open
source community.
(2) Allows IBM to get out of a tough situation
where they inadvertently violated someone else's
patent. I don't think (2) is likely to happen.
Any thoughts?
-- Idan
Agreed. Terminating just the offending code
makes more sense. The question of jurisdiction still remains, however. Any thoughts? Perhaps IBM's home in New Jersey?
-- Idan
See ProCD v. Zeidenberg. The 7th circuit appeals court upholds the validity both shrinkwrap and point-and-click licenses.