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Students Sue over Difficult Class
betaray writes "Students at SMU in Houston fail class
because they need to know more than point and click.
Students then file lawsuit.
Craziness ensues. " Getting certified to use MS applications
is obviously very difficult. Can I sue over my
Calc II class? Sure, it was like 3 years ago, but
I still get the shakes. Maybe I can get
cash for emotional stress?
Cobol and C programming? Are you sure that's a University, and not some technical college? What kind of a CS program would focus on specific technical skills (like C programming)? That's not Computer Science! And are you saying you didn't learn about data structures and algorithms, operating systems, computational complexity, the theory of computing, compiler design, artificial intelligence, etc.? Wow. This must be why CS at UW has such a good reputation - other schools are so terrible!
I don't know the details of what they were trying to teach in the class, but if were a CS100 'this is the control panel' type class, and you failed, you deserve what you get, and whining (and suing) about it is useless. Now if they promoted a 3rd year database course as 'point and click', this could be a problem.
Aren't there prereq's to the hard classes? I know when I took my 3rd year database class I had to have 2nd year db and a host of other classes that showed that I was not an idiot and had the basis of knowledge needed for the class.
Now did this school not have this set up? Maybe it *was* a first year class that didn't need pre-reqs? Even so, suing is not an option IMHO.
It was nore that the class was always cancelled. I'm all for getting the occassional surprise Tuesday off on occassion, but this class was cancelled a *lot*. I think we ended up having class maybe four out of ten times. I found myself thinking, "Wait a second, I'm *paying* for this!".
I passed the class and everything, but I learned absoluted zilch. I complained to the school, but their attitude was pretty much "you got your credits, what more do you want from us?"
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Posted by Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters:
./'ers, but the apparent fact is that it *was* too difficult for the students they actually recruited. Probably the school could not get as much enrollment as they wanted by appealing to those who really did have the requisite background, so the advertised more widely.
I think a couple others have observed this, but based on the description given in the article, the suit does not seem at all illegitimate. Several things were purported in the article:
(1) The course was for certification.
(2) The school charged money for the course.
(3) The school made specific and false represenations about the prerequisites for successfully completing the course/certification.
If these features are not accurate, I take back my remarks of course. But assuming they are true, it seems like a straighforward case of false-advertising.
I'm sure the MS certification would not be overly difficult for most
It is also important that this was not part of a general curriculum (say a CS degree, or public high school). In those cases, one could argue that the school/dept. has a right to set the curriculum as difficult as they think necessary, etc. But this was an isolated continuing-ed course for non-fulltime students. The school claimed, "any one who can point-and-click, and who pays us $X, will get this certificate". That's false... the school should pay for the claim.
Yours, Lulu...
Of course we're in school to get a piece of paper. Everyone knows computer science classes at most universities are a complete joke. The only reason to take them is to get the piece of paper to show your future employer to satisfy their HR department. I've almost never learned anything in a CIS class that I could apply in the real world besides basic C programming skills. Where the hell am I going to use the Cobol skills I'm being forced to learn for the piece of paper? I sure as hell don't want to sit behind a 3270 emulator my entire life and write cobol programs! ;-)
Just what the subject line said.
:O) and I would *love* to sue the department that I'm in (which is, strangely enough, journalism; I switched over from CS. Calc killed me. :^( ) Not only to counselors give false information, but the *course catalogs*, in many cases, don't match what the actual content of the class is!
The article states that the students were told that, if they could point and click, they could handle the course. Which, of course, was a lie. The class's content has been misrepresented, and students have been tricked into *paying* for a class that was not what they thought they were signing up for.
I go to SIU (Southern Illinois University...yeah, it *is* a crappy U
This could be a landmark (and wonderful) case. This could force universities to give counselors (and course catalogs, for that matter) relevant, accurate information.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Come on.
The students were told the course would be so simple, all they'd have to do is "point and click."
I personally have had this happen to me. I once had a counselor talk me into taking a plant biology class because, as she said, "You need a biology credit and this class is *easy.*" Not only, as I found out later, did I need two other prerequisite courses (although I was never asked to drop the course), but, by the time I figured out just *how* far over my head this stuff was, I was at a point that, no matter whether or not I dropped the course, *the university was going to get my money.*
This seems to me to be rather a dishonest course of action on the part of the university, and, having talked to students from other universities, a fairly common practice: set students up to fail so they have to stick around for a couple more semesters.
I know what you're thinking: "Yeah, that's why you should make your own schedule." I was a transfer student. I was relatively unfamiliar with the university (other than it's reputation for CS in the state) and I wasn't given the option to choose my own classes since I transferred in.
What the article doesn't say is what percentage of the class failed. That would be nice to know.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Erm, eh? SMU is in Dallas, not Houston. I would have to say I don't find this behavior surprising - look at recent events: woman suing mcdonalds over hot coffee, people suing bartenders for being "overserved". This is just continuing the trend of people being totally unwilling to accept the consequences of their actions and I fear it'll get better before it gets worse. What we need is to take a page from the british legal system, if I bring a lawsuit against you and can't prove my case - I pay your legal bills.
there are two kinds of people in this world - those who divide people into two groups and those who don't
Yah, I've thought of that - what about this: if you have a situation where a person couldn't bear the financial burden if they were to lose (but did have a good case) an attorney could offer to shoulder the risk and in response collect a substantial percentage if successful. I realize this would force lawyers to evaluate the case *very* *carefully* (since the attorney himself/herself would be out the money if the case isn't proven) but I submit that could well be a benefit, rather than a liability.
there are two kinds of people in this world - those who divide people into two groups and those who don't
if you sign up for a class you are supposed to know basically what the goal of the class is and what you are going to learn, which is in the official description of that class. the official description of the class in discussion here is probably something like "the goal of this class is to teach students the basic use of the Microsoft Windows '95 operating system and the Microsoft Office suite, specifically Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Excell." (don't pin me down on that one folks).
so, if you sign up for that class while all you know about it is that somebody said that "you can handl it if you can point and click" then YOU haven't done enough to find out exactly what the class was all about. considering the wording of the comment it's very probable that it was just a geste by a teacher to indicate that it entails really the very basics of how to use a computer.
what those students are doing is the same as, for example, suing the military because you didn't make it through basic training, which you took because a veteran told you that it's a piece of cake.
the whole point is that they should have known what the class was about when signed up, and they apparently didn't know what it was about.
)O(
the Gods have a sense of humor,
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
Before making comments about the students being stupid, one should consider that the article states that ALL 12 students failed. This is not normal. Can anybody out there recall a class in which all the students failed?
In my Calculus II course, I got a 4 out of 40 on my 1st exam. I was extrememly depressed until the prof told us that the class median score was a zero. The mean score was a 4. By the end of course there were only 6 (out of 30) of us left. This is the worse I have ever seen.
There is something inherently wrong with a class in which all the students fail. I don't care about the point and click stuff that was mentioned. These students should never have been allowed to take this course in the first place.
In my university, some first year CS teachers had to "ease up" some programming classes because there were too many complaints. It came to the point the the teacher gave the whole program as an assignment, and the student just had to provide two or three algorithm lines. I know, I was a corrector.
A student could also get 9/10 on an assignment even if the code did not compile but looked good anyway.
I told the teacher I was a corrector for that I thought this whole thing was ridiculous. He told me that he would get into bigger problems if he did not do that.
Good thing I finished school before this situation reached an embarrassing level.
M.
I remember when I took my intro to C programming class. After every lecture the professor would give us some reading/coding to do. And during every lab session others would complain -- "he [prof] isn't teaching us anything *^%!! how does he expect us to [insert simple C function]?!!". One student who asked me for help seemed surprised when I just asked him "did you read chapter 5 page xx?" Reading the text he assigned usually contained more than ample information relative to our labs. Unfortunately, at the end of the semester, many students gave the prof poor reviews due only to their lack of inititive.
signal, noise, to me it's all the same.
The only problem is what if you sue a huge company with a legitimate problem. Their legal fees will be huge, yours will be next to nothing for them. Now if you lose (as I'm sure we all know, winning a case doesn't depend on being right, it depends on how good your lawyer is) you are in a deep mess of trouble. I think SOMETHING needs to be done about the legal system in this country though. It's gotten completely out of hand. Basically people are stupid, and they don't want to accept the consequences of their actions.
-matt
OK, anyone want to take a stab at what the software was? If it was Microsoft Office©, then I have to say that "point and click" actually are reasonable prereqs. I'm a Novell Instructor, and I also teach HTML, so I know what kind of people we get in entry level classes. Some of them are doorknobs. But for MS Office? You could be a doorknob and still pull it off.
Now what about Visual Basic? Or NT Administration? Or IIS? Any of these classes require a more thorough understanding of computers than "point and click". But I have heard IS Managers ask some Education people, regarding NT training: "What is there to know? MS makes it point-and-click, don't they?" As I said: doorknobs.
But judging the students and their case is not advisable, nor possible even, from the scanty information we have here.
Believe nothing, not even if I say it, if it violates your sense of reason -- Buddha
I'm utterly amazed that an university would offer such a class. A junior college or trade school, sure. Was it a night class, extension class?
When I was in university (back when the dinosaurs roamed), CS101 was actual programming in pascal. You know, quicksorts, recursion, linked lists, passing by reference... The next class switched to using C on the UNIX, and we were expected to know both by the time our first assignments were due. The only C book available or the original K&R. UNIX documentation consisted of the man pages. Classes would start with 500 students and finish with 100 at the end of the quarter. Subsequent classes were on advanced algorithms, assembly, compiler design, etc. There were no DOS classes (windows wasn't around yet). There was a BASIC class for the benefit of non-technical majors, but they still had to learn how to program.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
I suppose there could be some teachers who "get off on failing students." But in my experience, failing students is not fun. It's a painful, difficult decision. I don't want to give anyone a failing grade and I generally give every possible chance, every benefit of the doubt, to bring that grade up to passing.
Maybe I just haven't been doing it long enogh to get mean and cynical yet.
I just can't imagine a teacher gleefully failing anyone -- even the worst teachers I had in school weren't that evil. (Maybe I was lucky.)
If someone fails, you didn't get through to them. Even if that's because the student didn't make any effort, you still feel as if you've failed as well. No teacher enjoys that feeling.
Your other points are well-taken, though I personally would like to hear more details about this story. How, really, was the course advertised? What was the syllabus? From the article you can't tell whether these students were really misled or not.
//
My experience has been the opposite; my adult students tend to be the most serious and work the hardest, because they *know* the value of the money they are spending for the class and they know what happens to them if they don't learn the material and can't get a job.
It's the students fresh out of high school that tend to screw around and not do the work. The cost of the course is not "real" to many of them because their parents or financial aid are paying the bills, and if they fail they can go live with Mon and Dad for a while. So they goof off.
//
So they were told it was going to be easy. Does that automagically mean that the school is REQUIRED BY LAW to make the class easy? That doesn't make sense.
Whose definiton of easy are we going to use? Ours? Then the university deserves to win. The average non-computer literate person's? Then the students should win.
You simply can't sue for misrepresetation unless there was some legally binding representation of the class.
I don't care how much they paid for the certification class. $1000 or more is nothing...I'm paying $25,000 per YEAR on TUITION here. Should I sue to get my money back because the classes are misrepresented as easy and I have trouble? The fact is that I have trouble in classes that are "easy" here. How is this so? Come to MIT if you want proof that you are not as intelligent as you once thought you were :).
Back when I was in high school, there were 2 physics courses offered during my senior year: Honors Physics and AP Physics. When arranging schedules for that year, we were required to sign a form (along with our parents) if we chose AP Physics, acknowledging that it could be a very difficult course. Starting off the year, there were 2 AP Physics classes of about 30 people each.
A good 75% of the students failed the first test (which you could pass as long as you knew f=ma and a few other extremely basic equations). The majority of them had their parents complain to the school, and demanded that the teacher, Dan "The Man" O'Halloran, be fired. Thankfully, the school didn't fire this wonderful teacher, but they did allow any student who wished to drop the AP Physics class and take Honors Physics instead. This kind of policy breakage was unheard of in the school system. After the dust had settled, AP Physics was 1 class with 12 people. That's 48 people that I lost a tremendous amount of respect for.
I learned a lot about responsibility and determination during all of this. One of my best friends failed that first test, but refused to transfer to the Honors Physics class. He said, "I knew what I was getting into, I signed the form, I made a commitment. I don't back down on shit like that." Sure enough, with a lot of pushing and tutoring from myself and other friends, he managed a passing grade in the class overall.
If only more of us could have that kind of personal drive.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
A side=note: those interested in a "traditional" UK libel trial, with all sorts of bizarre twists and turns, could do worse than check out the McSpotlight site. It's a huge site, with not a lot of news for nerds on it, but it does have some clear explanations of the absolute worst-case legal situation (in terms of complication rather than possible penalties): big multinational sues "the little people" and the little people, discovering that you can't get Legal Aid (assistance with the costs for legal action) for libel and slander cases, opt to defend themselves against a barrage of lawyers -- and achieve at least a partial victory.
I should add that from ouside the US, America is seen as an incredibly litigious country. A common complaint here when reports of a particularly pathetic case turn up, is "It's getting as bad as America". It's nice to see that not everyone in the US thinks that the first recourse should be the courts. Although it's noticeable that the first reaction to a lot of MS stuff here, and to the UserFriendly tale, has been "Class action lawsuit!" (what on earth is that, anyway? It sounds - severe.) But anyway, it was reassuring to see people laughing this one - well, I was going to say laughing out of court, but maybe that's premature :)
Wow, does this mean I can sue my Differential Equations teacher for all the mental anguish he caused me? Seriously though, I have had classes that were more than a little ridiculous in there expectations, but this really sounds like a bunch of mindless jerks who should be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes. I think the problem is probably mostly in the preparation these people get in primary and secondary education. Remember the US spends more per capita than any other industrialized nation, and gets just about the worst results.