Posted by
CmdrTaco
on from the this-is-crazy dept.
Xunker writes "Are so such a geek that your wrists are threatening to leave you for a better job? Well, for all those that are forced to deal with RSI, this could be what you need. The techie throne we all dream of. "
Looks like they havn't been giving the reboot-monkey enough toast.
Bah
by
Anonymous Coward
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Dvorak changed my life. Ended most of my typing discomfort (Increased ny speed somewhat, too). 'Nuf said.
How do I know it's great? 'Cuz I've tried it, I use it, it works. That's all the proof I need (I know I sound like a Tylenol commercial...). With Dvorak, I can type for much longer periods of time without strain. And without buying new, expensive equipment.
I've also tried those funky split system keyboards (like the Microsoft one). Not even as much benefit as simply changing and learning a new keymap.
BTW... The site bombed out pretty quickly, eh?
-Josh
Geez!!!!!
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Anonymous Coward
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Did anyone check the price on these? $825.00!!! Dang, I thought I got ripped buying a $29.99 chair at Walmart! I don't know if I could actually use it, but it would be cool to try it out...
Actually, not as expensive as it could be. We had a client who was a big ergonomic furniture maker -- and the whole office got their chairs. Even though the chairs were supposed to be very good for you, I have never experienced more discomfort and shoulder pain than while using that chair. When we got different chairs, I gladly traded for something more normal (probably 100-200 dollar office chair), and have had no problem since then.
I might not be wise to say the name of the company that made the chairs, but I do have a legitimate gripe - I was somewhat harmed by their product - so perhaps I should.
Okay, I will.
-- -fb
Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Re:I want the couch version.
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Anonymous Coward
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would give new meaning to the term couch potatoe:-)
Re:Dvorak
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Anonymous Coward
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It took me about a month to get as comfortable in Dvorak as I was in QWERTY. (One month is great, compared to how long it took me to learn QWERTY in the first place!)
And, yes, I'll be forward with you... it was one month of sheer hell. I was really slowed down on QWERTY, and utterly confused on Dvorak. But it doesn't last long.
There is only one way to learn - COLD TURKEY. You have to switch over your machine to Dvorak and force yourself to type with it at all times. You must also continue to use QWERTY on other people's machines for that month in order to keep your skills sharp on that keymap (you don't wanna forget! ; ). You will be slow on both.
But one day, after a month of struggling, something will just *click*, and you will be able to retain you old QWERTY speed (mine INCREASED, actually), and type flawlessly in Dvorak (quite faster), and be able to switch between the two at the turn of a dime. It's a weird brain thing (like knowing two languages, and not ever getting them mixed up). The human mind is a weird thing indeed. And difficult to train. But definitely worthwhile.
There is a good online practice form called "Dvorak: ABCD", or something like that. It's a great way to learn. Definitely search for that one.
Really, I've used QWERTY keyboards for 20+ years now...heavily. My wrist have never complained. I stick carpal tunnel syndrome alongside CRT radiation as being the kind of stuff whiny goldbrickers complain about.
Ultimate keyboard? Bring back the Space Cadet! I want my bucky bits!
Really, I've {smoked/handled poisonous snakes/played tag on the freeway} for 20+ years, now...heavily. [I've never had a problem.]
If you ever had carpal tunnel or other RSI, or known some who has, you'd know just how un-funny your post is. Ask RMS if he think his condition is funny...
The real offender in this regard is X. [...] Hell, if you don't have at least one xterm already running, you can't even launch another one without going to the mouse.
This is an issue with your window manager rather than X itself. Some window managers are really bad about mouse-only methods. That's one of the many reasons I fell in love with Window Maker. I was able to easily asign keystroke shortcuts to any often used menu item or window manager function I wanted. I added three different varients of xterms (actually aterm) running with either F2, F3 or F4. Alt-tab jumps between windows, brings them to the top at the same time, et cetera. Its only when I resort to software that does not provide the same type of functionality that I have to go to the trackball. If I'm just doing the typical sys-admin work, I can jump between windows and virtual monitors, launch terms, emacs and many other programs - and never leave the keyboard.
FYI only, not in any way meant to be ragging on you.
Re:Jedi coders don't use arrow keys!
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Anonymous Coward
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FWIW you don't need to move over to the arrow keys when using vi.. k = up j = down h = left l = right
All very well but..
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Anonymous Coward
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TWM all the way for no mouse. Just open me up an xterm on boot and I'm ready to work!:-) Low memory usage too!
But seriously, the mouse is sometimes useful, sometimes not. When not? When typing, coding, wordprocessing, and the like (I personally hate trying to aim in Quake with it too, but that's me!)...
When is it useful? Graphics tools, things with too many options to make readily immediately avaliable on the keyboard (remember Wordperfect 4.0?). Some games, too.
When do you get a choice? Moving files, in windows "drag 'n drop" with mouse or cut n paste with keyboard (Hmmm, I guess KDE and GNOME do this now. I'm just too lazy to try 'em).?
I just try not to get too attached to it. But then, I love lynx since I CAN'T use the thing (ok, I suppose GPM sorta counts), so perhaps I'm not sane yet...
Ignoring the fact that for some (non-coding) activities one can perform on a computer, the mouse is usefull, I still like the ability to type with one hand. It scares me when I notice that I can hold a Mt. Dew in one hand, and type with the other faster than many people can type using both hands:)
Re:Reminds me of...
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Anonymous Coward
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Actually, I have the feeling that without keys of some sort to give something to push against, typing would be more tiresome. I am waiting till I can just have an RJ-45 jack surgically implanted and just jack in. I wonder if "repetitive thought injuries" are possible?
Reality is air..
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Anonymous Coward
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..Or sensors attached to the muscles that control the fingers, like a bionic prothesis.
Re:Jedi coders don't use arrow keys!
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Anonymous Coward
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I think he meant that he doesn't like to move away from the hjkl keys when using apps other than vi, where arrow keys are required...
Re:Not the "complete" solution
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Anonymous Coward
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Hhmmm, like the $2500 Sony glasses? Just waiting for the price to drop on those...
Re:DataHand
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Anonymous Coward
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The DataHand looks wack! What do you think about its accuracy, ie, the non-kludge factor? I wish they were in stores so I could easily try it.
BTW, you mean a two piece keyboard right? A mouse and a standard keyboard are multiple input devices.
I prefer my 11 year old keytronics
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Anonymous Coward
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I've had this keytronics for a very long time, I see no reason to switch to some of the new lame keyboards they're coming out with now.
(I also type for 12 hours+, and have had no problems)
oh well.
Keyboard or Total Solution?
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Anonymous Coward
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The split keyboard and chair are nice, but...
... Isn't that rather like putting a fast CPU on a slow bus?
Why not the total solution? Why not The Aura?
http://www.poetictech.com/
[If it ONLY rotated in all three axes!]
Re:Keyboard or Total Solution?
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Anonymous Coward
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That is awesome. I'm not suprised that they don't list the price. Says it rotates 120deg in 8 hours. I wonder what it does after that.
Re:Keyboard or Total Solution?
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Anonymous Coward
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I posted the comment about the price. Oddly enough it is listed, in the news section. Only $5500 base (what does the cad. in ``$8500 cad.'' mean?).
The Ultimate (non) Keyboard
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Anonymous Coward
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Check out www.datahand.com
That's a real keyboard.
Re:Not the "complete" solution
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Anonymous Coward
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Actually I saw them in a Computer Shopper catalog. They had a big double fold-out ad for laptops, accessories, and some other things. It could be on their web site.
Re:Not the "complete" solution
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Anonymous Coward
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Me again. I found something. This one is http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/home/ca mcorder/camcorderaccessories/plm-a55_specs.shtml PLM-A55 is $899 6.4oz, takes NTSC input. I don't remember if the GlassTron that I saw in the mag could use BNC or NTSC or both, OR if the Sony VAIO notebooks have NTSC output: but the ad did say you could use that particular GlassTron with a VAIO. I remember seeing $25xx. Now I find the PLM-S700 at http://www.sony-europe.com/cons/glasstron/glass_s7 00.html and this one can be ``directly connected to your PC.'' Are outputs on European PC video cards the same as in the US? It does 800x600. This could be the expensive one.
Then again I'm at work sitting on an econo-chair in front of a plastic table, at a computer in a windowless office with delightful flourescent lights and white walls, typing this into IE4. The mind isn't exactly flowing with sense.
What worked for me
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Anonymous Coward
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I have occational wrist problems and what I bought was one of those wrist/forearm gloves made of rubber, plastic and velcro. It prevents your wrist from bending in an akward position. It it hard to type the first few days but then you get used to it. I only got pain in my right wrist but this thing seems to solve that problem. And it costs under $20.
what I was thinking of as the ultimate chair/kb/etc combo would be a hacked dentist chair rig. You could stretch out to a comfortable supine angle, have a swing-tray w/ attached kb and trackball, and then use the adjustable arm w/ the light thingy for the monitor - flat panel type. Now that would be relaxing, heh.
It's keyboard OR mouse. Not both. That kinda blows some of the usefulness. I use the keyboard more than the mouse, but I would need both close by for a solution like this to work for me. How would I play Quake!?;)
-- It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I have the ultimate ergonomic chair
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soren.harward
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Bah. Give me a recliner with probes to plug my brain directly into the computer Matrix-style and then I'll start paying attention.
Re:I have the ultimate ergonomic chair
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Piers+Cawley
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Yeah! Forget RSI, bedsores are the wave of the future...
Re:I have the ultimate ergonomic chair
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cpt+kangarooski
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Bah. Give me a recliner with probes to plug my brain directly into the computer Matrix-style and then I'll start paying attention.
Nah, you'd just sprain your brain if you used it that much.;)
-- --
This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Ah, now I love 'em. In fact I've just ordered myself a Maltron keyboard with a couple or three remaps to make it more Unix friendly. Yup, it's costing me 400 pounds, but the way I look at it that's about a day and a half's work and anything's better than being in a position where I can't work at all.
Sure, it may take a while to getting used to the g/h break that the split beasties use, but I've found that once I got used to that I'm much more comfortable using even this crappy old MS Natural keyboard than I am using a standard flatty.
not quite good enough...
by
Rob+Parkhill
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Now if they can combine that keyboard/armrest system with my Aeron chair (the Ultimate Sitting Machine:-), I might buy one. Better yet, sell it as an upgrade to my existing Aeron chair, and I'll definately buy one.
--
"Tomorrow's forecast: a few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" - Stewie Griffin
Get out yer wallet. These keyboards retrofit on to Aeron chairs. http://www.officeorganix.com/wpdarms.htm
spud
Re:And where do you put the mouse?
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William+Tanksley
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I imagine it has a pointing device built in but I've never seen a keyboard pointing device with a satisfactory button placement.
You're right, it has a touchpad built in.
However, I'm using a keyboard with a pointing device built in which has satisfactory button placement.
It's a Trackpoint keyboard, and the buttons are right below the spacebar, where I naturally rest my thumbs.
To move the mouse, I just twitch either index finger over to the little eraser-thingie and push it, and the mouse moves. Twitch my thumb, and the mouse clicks (only two buttons, though; a pity).
And to make things even more wonderful, if I hold the shift down and move the mouse, the page which the mouse is over scrolls in two dimensions (without changing the focus). I haven't touched a scrollbar in ages.
I wonder -- is shift-mouse movement scrolling supported in Linux? It would _really_ be nice.
An error occurred while attempting to establish a connection to the service.
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Please inform the site administrator that this error has occurred (be sure to include the contents of this page in your message to the administrator).
-- In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
It looks pretty nice, and their FAQ is surprisingly good, and it doesn't require weird drivers.
But notice that all of the pictures are missing the cable. The last thing I need is a wire going to my chair, where I can trip over it, roll over it, or pull it out of the machine if I roll too far away.
Worse would be the state of mind of a person who had mastered using it for that. Yikes!
That sounds like a great idea . . . just like real-life martial arts, where you have to be calm to fight effectively. Martial arts are a great tool for relaxation for just that reason: They force you to chill out, or face the consequences.;) (By the way, I use martial arts to deal with the God-awful muscle tension I build up at the keyboard. It works!) Beer recipe: free! #Source Cold pints: $2 #Product
I tried one of those at Macworld NY last summer. It wasn't amazing. IIRC it was hooked up to a playstation, with some driving game. To acellerate, you had to be _very_ calm. I don't think it would be healthy to try to play HalfLife or some other shooter with it. Not that it was easy to use in the first place. Worse would be the state of mind of a person who had mastered using it for that. Yikes!
Now what I'd want in an ultimate geek throne is all of that, plus a john. It's not a throne unless it's got a john attached.;)
-- --
This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
That has got to be the best design I have seen yet for a non-mobile keyboard. Anyone know what the price tag is?
/dev
-- "There's no secret. You just press the accelerator to the floor and keep turning left." -- Bill Vukovich
Re:Jedi coders don't touch rodents
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FiNaLe
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I agree, I once saw a keyboard with a trackstick right between the g and h keys. with the buttons right under the space bar. it was awesome, you could use the mouse while keeping your fingers on their home rows. I'm trying to find where to buy one now, but haven't had much luck, if anyone finds one can they mail me at finale@macroshaft.org?
-- Earn cash in your spare time! Blackmail your friends!
Re:Jedi coders don't touch rodents
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FiNaLe
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thanks dude, your awesome
-- Earn cash in your spare time! Blackmail your friends!
...a better cure seems to be variation. i can type longer on my wacked keyboard than a normal one, but for very long periods nothing works better than switching keyboards occasionally. changing the repetative motions is your best bet. i'm skeptical of any single keyboard as _the_ solution.
It looks to me like a reincarnation of that winblows keyboard. We had someone at work who was brain dead enough to buy a winblows keyboard . He sure hell didn't buy one for himself for home use.
After he left I inherited his computer which I use in the lab for my tests. I had a hard time finding a sucker for the keyboard, no matter how nicely I tried to describe its good sides.
At last someone was gullible enough to accept a trade. Now I have a real keyboard...
All right, first of all - get over it. I've been hearing the same anti-mouse sentiments for ten years now. How long do mice have to be around before you give it up?
Second - Windows is not that hard to navigate without a mouse. In fact, handicaped accessibility rules mean that every major Windows app has to be navigable from the keyboard. I use the mouse as and where appropriate, but I do a lot from the keyboard and could happily use a Windows machine with no mouse--as long as I wasn't trying to use Visio or suchlike where the mouse is an obvious requirement.
The real offender in this regard is X. You can't even start an XFree86 server if your mouse is wonky. And both KDE and Gnome are horrifically mouse-dependent. Hell, if you don't have at least one xterm already running, you can't even launch another one without going to the mouse.
One of my biggest current annoyances in KDE (which is what I'm using at the moment, not through any strong preference, but just because it crashes less than Gnome at the moment) is that you can't get to the "K" ("Start" equivalent) without using the mouse. In Win95/NT, I constantly hit Ctrl-Esc, P,N,N to start Netscape, or Ctrl-Esc,P,A,N to start Notepad, or what have you. Having to constantly go to the mouse for this stuff in KDE is a total P.I.T.A.
Take a $100 chair. And a $25 keyboard. What's that? It's split? Okay - let's be generous and double the keyboard cost for splitting it in half. $50. Add 0.3 seconds of thinking time for "Duh, how about a keyboard integrated into the chair", say at $100/hour (excessive) = c0.83, call it c1. Oh yes, we'll need an adapter, to mount the halves of the keyboard on the chair - adjustable in 3D (mount it on a height adjustable ball joint), say $25 each, that's $50.
That's $225.01. Now let's flog it for $1000! Bollocks to that. RSI here I come.
The other devices aren't much better. Datahand looks good but for a box with 8 buttons and a bit of clever electronics (one EPROM?) $1000 is a bit much. I reckon if I could be bothered I could undercut them by 75% with a better product and still make a mint.
I dunno who buys these things. They must have more money than sense. As well as keyboarding, I play the sax (exercises the right arm) and bagpipes (exercises the left arm) and only get wrist pains when I give up music.
Although thinking about the economics of my situation that probably doesn't make much sense anyway. Sax=$3000. Pipes=$1500. Piper's No1 outfit=$2000. Oh well...:-) Still, it's more fun than a chair-mounted mouse.
Trackpoints: was:And where do you put the mouse?
by
AReilly
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I'll second the Trackpoint comment. I was getting shoulder strain in my mouse-arm until I got this beastie. It's brilliant. Fingers never leave the home row. The IBM keys feel nice too, but the clicking took a little while to get used to. I use this keyboard around fourteen hours a day, with no problems or fatigue.
About the only serious problem is that I'm momentarily stumped whenever I have to use a regular mouse.
-- --
Andrew
Doesn't look like it would be too hard
by
Dast
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to make one yourself.
Get one of those split keyboards, find a suitable chair, rig something up to let you adjust the position, and superglue.
I'm going to try and learn Dvorak. My wrists ache all the time. It's annoying. Especially when I notice that my hands are moving all over this keyboard for no reason.
How long did it take ya to switch? I figure if I learn 3 keys a day I'll have it pretty quick. I just hope I don't mix em up. I'm sure I will as I go form computer to computer all the time.
Unforutnately, we can't change em all. I guess it's going to end up like the metric system.
I'm one geek whose career almost ended a few years ago due to arm pains. I guess I wasted one year without being able to work. I visited many doctors, tried medication and especially resting a lot. It was really frustrating while work piled up.
The first tip I got was to not rest my hands on the support in front of the keyboard. I used to just plant my hands there and type on. The problem with this is that your arms don't move enough.
Second advice was more radical. My arms were hurting but when a doctor diagnosed me, he didn't find any problems in me that would cause it. So he told me to use my arms. Do heavy work, type on, excercise and so on. Needless to say that I was scared of the advice but I tried it and it really helped. I haven't had any problems since then.
My advice for everybody is to work out. Do some sports with your arms as it really keeps them in great shape. Typing doesn't give you muscles or keep you in shape. That's why we get problems from the repetitive movements. But constructions workers don't get RSI or tennis elbow even when their work is also repetitive because their work is more versatile.
I still use a normal keyboard and won't change to an ergonomic one. I have put the half inch thick hand support under the front of the keyboard to lift it up. I work out regularly a few times a week. That's what works for me.
You may find some of my advice useful but if you have arm or wrist pains, don't just run blindly to try my advice. Consult your doctor first. (Standard disclaimer to avoid being sued);-)
I'd like to ask you some questions about your experiences with the DataHand, since it costs $50 to give it a try. I don't know if you have experienced all the topics, but... - How is it with: Emacs Quake (games in general)
- Are you satisfied with the weight? - How's the durability? Does it get dirty and gummy easily? How easy it to clean? - Did you have any compatibility problems? - How good is the integrated mouse?
Feel free to mail me..
--
--
"I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
I find that for pure neato value, the datahand is the coolest keyboard (although the twiddler is also nifty). Since I'm a poor typist, it looks better, since you can't really miss a key (nor, for that matter, can you type improperly, since you have no choice which finger hits which key). Of course, it's also expensive as hell (which is why they don't list the price). It's around $900 for the personal (the Pro II is over $1000). I think this could be a really neato slashdot topic: badass input devices.
--
--
"I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
That mind controlled device that is on the market.. Actually I want to buy one just to play w/.. Wonder how well I could controll Half Life w/ it.. Just sit back, clamp it on your finger, think and watch the frags! "The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
Yeah it would be scary.. What the need is a thrown with a computer built into it, pull down head screen, mouse, keboard, multi-media system, coffee maker and a pizza oven..
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
-- I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
they should be running linux...
by
Mr.+Tinkertrain
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... and this is why:
Error Diagnostic Information An error occurred while attempting to establish a connection to the service.
The most likely cause of this problem is that the service is not currently running. You can use the 'Services' Control Panel to verify that the service is running and to restart it if necessary.
Re:they should be running linux...
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remande
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Windows NT error number 2 occurred.
I'm sure that if you look up in the manual, you will find that NT error number 2 is "URL is hotlinked by www.slashdot.org".
--
--The basis of all love is respect
That chair looks staggeringly uncomfortable...
by
maw
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...unless you actually like typical office furnature. As someone who's 6'4", I can imagine my back and neck cramping up after sitting on that chair for about 5 minutes. At least it'll take years before my hands wear out, if ever.
Look again! The keyboard is split into two parts. One for the left hand and one for the right. And a nice little touchpad on the right part. Seems really nice!
Best ergonomic keyboard I've found is the Kinesis. It has two concave keypads, one for each hand and you hardly need to move your wrists at all. Only problem is, you need to be able to use both hands to type - reaching to (e.g.) the right side pad with your left hand is awkward
Hallelujah. Six surgeries in ten years(both hands) for RSI. I got this keyboard, and had no recurrences for over two years. I put a glidepoint in the center of the keyboard(velcro, the 5th element), never have to take my hands off the stick.
-- Freedom begins when you tell Mrs Grundy to go fly a kite. _R.A.Heinlein
I do about 90% of my typing left-handed. About all that my right hand uses is the mouse and the number pad. And I'm right handed! This would be good for typists or data entry people, but I find that I spend much more time revising than actually just typing in stuff.
RSI as I understand it is caused by the repetitive action, and only exacerbated by the poor ergonomics of most keyboards. The only cure is for motion detectors on the fingernails and to type on air.
I don't see how people can use unix and depend on a mouse at the same time. Unix is based on efficiency. You seriously want me to lift my hand off of the keyboard, put it on the mouse, click a button, then move my hand back to the keyboard a thousand times a day? I can barely stand to take my hand of my vi keys to move it over to the arrow keys, let alone the mouse. It's extremely productive to know all of those keyboard shortcuts. It's the one true way. Use your brain, not your muscles.
-- ---
A Jesus Fish eating a Darwin Fish only proves Darwin's point.
so i'm a college freshman with tendonitis in my hands and varying degrees of other RSI. from my experience, the most damaging thing you can do to your hands is to spend long sessions without breaks. this keyboard is a _bad_ thing as i see it (as are most "ergo" keyboards), because it makes it easier to do so. the reason it's called a "repetitive stress injury" has very much to do with the fact that the muscles in your hands are not intended to be stressed the way they are while typing for extended periods. the one thing that has made a real difference for me is setting a timer that beeps every 20 minutes so that i know to let go of the keyboard for a couple minutes to relax and stretch my hands. it takes getting used to, but it's well worth it. the pain and tightness in my hands and forearms is now drastically reduced. I haven't felt the sharp burning pain in my back for a while now (letting go of the keyboard also gets me to look up and adjust my posture). I once again feel confident that i will be able to continue my education in CS over the next 3 years and eventually pursue a career in the field. the breaks also allow me to collect my thoughts, and i believe actually increase my productivity rather than decrease it. i've already seen a friend of mine (also a freshman, although not here) have severe damage to the nerves in his arms, so i'm paranoid about this kind of stuff.
The Datahand is the coolest keyboard. And it solved my RSI problem. Each finger hits one of five keys, and your finger doesn't have to move far, reducing aggravation to the carpal tunnel.
I find having multiple input devices is the way to beat RSI.
When was Workplace Designs bought by Cramer? It looks like I'm not reading the Typing Injury FAQ often enough.
Ripping the chair mounting hardware off the old Floating Arms keyboard is a reasonable enough idea, and making the trackpad available on the left or right is nice, but I still want the numeric keypad on the left.
You can configure all sorts of weird combos with the control panel keyboard module. Does anyone know how to get the Win95 keys going easily for KDE?
Anyway, I have never liked the split keyboard design. Whenever I am forced to use one, I am always left searching for the 'g' or 'h' on the wrong side.
I have one of these(the Cramer split keyboard-chairs), had it for about a year now. It is really killer to say the least. As for the touchpad, I have never liked one I've used anywhere. But this one was pretty friggin nice, I got used to it in about a day and I've never used a mouse since then. If I only had a good chair to go with the damned thing, it'd be perfect. But oh well... it's well worth the bucks...
a motor that makes this thing roll a joystick that makes this thing steer so I won't use any of my energy rolling around my lab. Hmm maybe i can even ride home in this thing...
Slashdot Mirror
Looks like they havn't been giving the reboot-monkey enough toast.
Dvorak changed my life. Ended most of my typing discomfort (Increased ny speed somewhat, too). 'Nuf said.
How do I know it's great? 'Cuz I've tried it, I use it, it works. That's all the proof I need (I know I sound like a Tylenol commercial...). With Dvorak, I can type for much longer periods of time without strain. And without buying new, expensive equipment.
I've also tried those funky split system keyboards (like the Microsoft one). Not even as much benefit as simply changing and learning a new keymap.
BTW... The site bombed out pretty quickly, eh?
-Josh
Did anyone check the price on these? $825.00!!! Dang, I thought I got ripped buying a $29.99 chair at Walmart!
I don't know if I could actually use it, but it would be cool to try it out...
would give new meaning to the term couch potatoe :-)
It took me about a month to get as comfortable in Dvorak as I was in QWERTY. (One month is great, compared to how long it took me to learn QWERTY in the first place!)
And, yes, I'll be forward with you... it was one month of sheer hell. I was really slowed down on QWERTY, and utterly confused on Dvorak. But it doesn't last long.
There is only one way to learn - COLD TURKEY. You have to switch over your machine to Dvorak and force yourself to type with it at all times. You must also continue to use QWERTY on other people's machines for that month in order to keep your skills sharp on that keymap (you don't wanna forget! ; ). You will be slow on both.
But one day, after a month of struggling, something will just *click*, and you will be able to retain you old QWERTY speed (mine INCREASED, actually), and type flawlessly in Dvorak (quite faster), and be able to switch between the two at the turn of a dime. It's a weird brain thing (like knowing two languages, and not ever getting them mixed up). The human mind is a weird thing indeed. And difficult to train. But definitely worthwhile.
There is a good online practice form called "Dvorak: ABCD", or something like that. It's a great way to learn. Definitely search for that one.
Winders typing apps are great too.
Also, writing a book that way doesn't hurt! ; )
Good luck!
-Josh
BTW... I love metric! ; P
Really, I've used QWERTY keyboards for 20+ years
now...heavily. My wrist have never complained.
I stick carpal tunnel syndrome alongside CRT radiation as being the kind of stuff whiny goldbrickers complain about.
Ultimate keyboard? Bring back the Space Cadet!
I want my bucky bits!
I asked them about this myself earlier. They in fact have armrest brackets made specially for Aerons.
The real offender in this regard is X. [...] Hell, if you don't have at least one xterm already running, you can't even launch another one without going to the mouse.
This is an issue with your window manager rather than X itself. Some window managers are really bad about mouse-only methods. That's one of the many reasons I fell in love with Window Maker. I was able to easily asign keystroke shortcuts to any often used menu item or window manager function I wanted. I added three different varients of xterms (actually aterm) running with either F2, F3 or F4. Alt-tab jumps between windows, brings them to the top at the same time, et cetera. Its only when I resort to software that does not provide the same type of functionality that I have to go to the trackball. If I'm just doing the typical sys-admin work, I can jump between windows and virtual monitors, launch terms, emacs and many other programs - and never leave the keyboard.
FYI only, not in any way meant to be ragging on you.
FWIW you don't need to move over to the arrow
keys when using vi..
k = up
j = down
h = left
l = right
Where's the drink holder? ;-)
TWM all the way for no mouse. Just open me up an xterm on boot and I'm ready to work! :-) Low memory usage too!
But seriously, the mouse is sometimes useful, sometimes not. When not? When typing, coding, wordprocessing, and the like (I personally hate trying to aim in Quake with it too, but that's me!)...
When is it useful? Graphics tools, things with too many options to make readily immediately avaliable on the keyboard (remember Wordperfect 4.0?). Some games, too.
When do you get a choice? Moving files, in windows "drag 'n drop" with mouse or cut n paste with keyboard (Hmmm, I guess KDE and GNOME do this now. I'm just too lazy to try 'em).?
I just try not to get too attached to it. But then, I love lynx since I CAN'T use the thing (ok, I suppose GPM sorta counts), so perhaps I'm not sane yet...
http://www.pckeyboard.com
Has 'em
You can also try:
http://www.infogrip.com
For ergo keyboards, pointing devices...etc
Ignoring the fact that for some (non-coding) activities one can perform on a computer, the mouse is usefull, I still like the ability to type with one hand. It scares me when I notice that I can hold a Mt. Dew in one hand, and type with the other faster than many people can type using both hands :)
Actually, I have the feeling that without keys of some sort to give something to push against, typing would be more tiresome. I am waiting till I can just have an RJ-45 jack surgically implanted and just jack in. I wonder if "repetitive thought injuries" are possible?
..Or sensors attached to the muscles that control the fingers, like a bionic prothesis.
I think he meant that he doesn't like to move away from the hjkl keys when using apps other than vi, where arrow keys are required...
Hhmmm, like the $2500 Sony glasses? Just waiting for the price to drop on those...
The DataHand looks wack! What do you think about its accuracy, ie, the non-kludge factor? I wish they were in stores so I could easily try it.
BTW, you mean a two piece keyboard right? A mouse and a standard keyboard are multiple input devices.
I've had this keytronics for a very long time, I see no reason to switch to some of the new lame keyboards they're coming out with now.
(I also type for 12 hours+, and have had no problems)
oh well.
The split keyboard and chair are nice, but ...
... Isn't that rather like putting a fast CPU on a slow bus?
Why not the total solution? Why not The Aura?
http://www.poetictech.com/
[If it ONLY rotated in all three axes!]
Check out www.datahand.com
That's a real keyboard.
Actually I saw them in a Computer Shopper catalog. They had a big double fold-out ad for laptops, accessories, and some other things. It could be on their web site.
Me again. I found something. This one isa mcorder/camcorderaccessories/plm-a55_specs .shtml 7 00.html and this one can be ``directly connected to your PC.'' Are outputs on European PC video cards the same as in the US? It does 800x600. This could be the expensive one.
http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/home/c
PLM-A55 is $899 6.4oz, takes NTSC input. I don't remember if the GlassTron that I saw in the mag could use BNC or NTSC or both, OR if the Sony VAIO notebooks have NTSC output: but the ad did say you could use that particular GlassTron with a VAIO. I remember seeing $25xx. Now I find the PLM-S700 at http://www.sony-europe.com/cons/glasstron/glass_s
Then again I'm at work sitting on an econo-chair in front of a plastic table, at a computer in a windowless office with delightful flourescent lights and white walls, typing this into IE4. The mind isn't exactly flowing with sense.
I have occational wrist problems and what I bought was one of those wrist/forearm gloves made of rubber, plastic and velcro. It prevents your wrist from bending in an akward position. It it hard to type the first few days but then you get used to it. I only got pain in my right wrist but this thing seems to solve that problem. And it costs under $20.
ack!
...they need some sort of HUD or wearable to replace the monitor.
..do you have a link (or name) for those? I was looking at getting a pair of the "i-glasses" (http://www.i-glasses.com).
Wayne
what I was thinking of as the ultimate chair/kb/etc combo would be a hacked dentist chair rig. You could stretch out to a comfortable supine angle, have a swing-tray w/ attached kb and trackball, and then use the adjustable arm w/ the light thingy for the monitor - flat panel type. Now that would be relaxing, heh.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
It's keyboard OR mouse. Not both. That kinda blows some of the usefulness. I use the keyboard more than the mouse, but I would need both close by for a solution like this to work for me. How would I play Quake!? ;)
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Bah. Give me a recliner with probes to plug my brain directly into the computer Matrix-style and then I'll start paying attention.
Ah, now I love 'em. In fact I've just ordered myself a Maltron keyboard with a couple or three remaps to make it more Unix friendly. Yup, it's costing me 400 pounds, but the way I look at it that's about a day and a half's work and anything's better than being in a position where I can't work at all.
Sure, it may take a while to getting used to the g/h break that the split beasties use, but I've found that once I got used to that I'm much more comfortable using even this crappy old MS Natural keyboard than I am using a standard flatty.
Now if they can combine that keyboard/armrest system with my Aeron chair (the Ultimate Sitting Machine :-), I might buy one. Better yet, sell it as an upgrade to my existing Aeron chair, and I'll definately buy one.
"Tomorrow's forecast: a few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" - Stewie Griffin
satisfactory button placement.
You're right, it has a touchpad built in.
However, I'm using a keyboard with a pointing device built in which has satisfactory button placement.
It's a Trackpoint keyboard, and the buttons are right below the spacebar, where I naturally rest my thumbs.
To move the mouse, I just twitch either index finger over to the little eraser-thingie and push it, and the mouse moves. Twitch my thumb, and the mouse clicks (only two buttons, though; a pity).
And to make things even more wonderful, if I hold the shift down and move the mouse, the page which the mouse is over scrolls in two dimensions (without changing the focus). I haven't touched a scrollbar in ages.
I wonder -- is shift-mouse movement scrolling supported in Linux? It would _really_ be nice.
-Billy
Error Occurred While Processing Request
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The most likely cause of this problem is that the service is not currently running. You can use the
'Services' Control Panel to verify that the service is running and to restart it if necessary.
Windows NT error number 2 occurred.
Please inform the site administrator that this error has occurred (be sure to include the contents of
this page in your message to the administrator).
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
It looks pretty nice, and their FAQ is surprisingly good, and it doesn't require weird drivers.
But notice that all of the pictures are missing the cable. The last thing I need is a wire going to my chair, where I can trip over it, roll over it, or pull it out of the machine if I roll too far away.
Worse would be the state of mind of a person who had mastered using it for that. Yikes!
That sounds like a great idea . . . just like
real-life martial arts, where you have to be
calm to fight effectively. Martial arts are
a great tool for relaxation for just that reason:
They force you to chill out, or face the consequences.
arts to deal with the God-awful muscle tension
I build up at the keyboard. It works!)
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
I tried one of those at Macworld NY last summer. It wasn't amazing. IIRC it was hooked up to a playstation, with some driving game. To acellerate, you had to be _very_ calm. I don't think it would be healthy to try to play HalfLife or some other shooter with it. Not that it was easy to use in the first place. Worse would be the state of mind of a person who had mastered using it for that. Yikes!
;)
Now what I'd want in an ultimate geek throne is all of that, plus a john. It's not a throne unless it's got a john attached.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
That has got to be the best design I have seen yet for a non-mobile keyboard. Anyone know what the price tag is?
/dev
"There's no secret. You just press the accelerator to the floor and keep turning left." -- Bill Vukovich
I agree, I once saw a keyboard with a trackstick right between the g and h keys. with the buttons right under the space bar. it was awesome, you could use the mouse while keeping your fingers on their home rows.
I'm trying to find where to buy one now, but haven't had much luck, if anyone finds one can they mail me at finale@macroshaft.org?
Earn cash in your spare time! Blackmail your friends!
thanks dude, your awesome
Earn cash in your spare time! Blackmail your friends!
...a better cure seems to be variation. i can type longer on my wacked keyboard than a normal one, but for very long periods nothing works better than switching keyboards occasionally. changing the repetative motions is your best bet. i'm skeptical of any single keyboard as _the_ solution.
Unforutnately, we can't change em all. I guess it's going to end up like the metric system.
You mean like the way every civilized nation uses metric?
It looks to me like a reincarnation of that
...
winblows keyboard. We had someone at work
who was brain dead enough to buy a winblows
keyboard . He sure hell didn't buy one for himself
for home use.
After he left I inherited his computer which
I use in the lab for my tests. I had a hard time
finding a sucker for the keyboard, no matter how
nicely I tried to describe its good sides.
At last someone was gullible enough to accept a
trade. Now I have a real keyboard
I've known about this for almost a year.
All right, first of all - get over it. I've been hearing the same anti-mouse sentiments for ten years now. How long do mice have to be around before you give it up?
Second - Windows is not that hard to navigate without a mouse. In fact, handicaped accessibility rules mean that every major Windows app has to be navigable from the keyboard. I use the mouse as and where appropriate, but I do a lot from the keyboard and could happily use a Windows machine with no mouse--as long as I wasn't trying to use Visio or suchlike where the mouse is an obvious requirement.
The real offender in this regard is X. You can't even start an XFree86 server if your mouse is wonky. And both KDE and Gnome are horrifically mouse-dependent. Hell, if you don't have at least one xterm already running, you can't even launch another one without going to the mouse.
One of my biggest current annoyances in KDE (which is what I'm using at the moment, not through any strong preference, but just because it crashes less than Gnome at the moment) is that you can't get to the "K" ("Start" equivalent) without using the mouse. In Win95/NT, I constantly hit Ctrl-Esc, P,N,N to start Netscape, or Ctrl-Esc,P,A,N to start Notepad, or what have you. Having to constantly go to the mouse for this stuff in KDE is a total P.I.T.A.
-Graham
Take a $100 chair.
:-) Still, it's more fun than a chair-mounted mouse.
And a $25 keyboard.
What's that? It's split? Okay - let's be generous and double the keyboard cost for splitting it in half. $50.
Add 0.3 seconds of thinking time for "Duh, how about a keyboard integrated into the chair", say at $100/hour (excessive) = c0.83, call it c1.
Oh yes, we'll need an adapter, to mount the halves of the keyboard on the chair - adjustable in 3D (mount it on a height adjustable ball joint), say $25 each, that's $50.
That's $225.01. Now let's flog it for $1000!
Bollocks to that. RSI here I come.
The other devices aren't much better. Datahand looks good but for a box with 8 buttons and a bit of clever electronics (one EPROM?) $1000 is a bit much. I reckon if I could be bothered I could undercut them by 75% with a better product and still make a mint.
I dunno who buys these things. They must have more money than sense. As well as keyboarding, I play the sax (exercises the right arm) and bagpipes (exercises the left arm) and only get wrist pains when I give up music.
Although thinking about the economics of my situation that probably doesn't make much sense anyway. Sax=$3000. Pipes=$1500. Piper's No1 outfit=$2000. Oh well...
I'll second the Trackpoint comment. I was getting shoulder strain in my mouse-arm until I got this beastie. It's brilliant. Fingers never leave the home row. The IBM keys feel nice too, but the clicking took a little while to get used to. I use this keyboard around fourteen hours a day, with no problems or fatigue.
About the only serious problem is that I'm momentarily stumped whenever I have to use a regular mouse.
-- Andrew
to make one yourself.
Get one of those split keyboards, find a suitable chair, rig something up to let you adjust the position, and superglue.
*shrug* Too rich for my blood.
This sig is false.
I'm going to try and learn Dvorak. My wrists ache all the time. It's annoying. Especially when I notice that my hands are moving all over this keyboard for no reason.
How long did it take ya to switch? I figure if I learn 3 keys a day I'll have it pretty quick. I just hope I don't mix em up. I'm sure I will as I go form computer to computer all the time.
Unforutnately, we can't change em all. I guess it's going to end up like the metric system.
Romans 10:9-10
A cooler for the pitcher of rum punch.....
*COUGH* Stupid gimmick! *COUGH*
That keyboard looks *painful*, I would be in agony if I had to use it all day...it looks worse than the M$ natural keyboard.
The first tip I got was to not rest my hands on the support in front of the keyboard. I used to just plant my hands there and type on. The problem with this is that your arms don't move enough.
Second advice was more radical. My arms were hurting but when a doctor diagnosed me, he didn't find any problems in me that would cause it. So he told me to use my arms. Do heavy work, type on, excercise and so on. Needless to say that I was scared of the advice but I tried it and it really helped. I haven't had any problems since then.
My advice for everybody is to work out. Do some sports with your arms as it really keeps them in great shape. Typing doesn't give you muscles or keep you in shape. That's why we get problems from the repetitive movements. But constructions workers don't get RSI or tennis elbow even when their work is also repetitive because their work is more versatile.
I still use a normal keyboard and won't change to an ergonomic one. I have put the half inch thick hand support under the front of the keyboard to lift it up. I work out regularly a few times a week. That's what works for me.
You may find some of my advice useful but if you have arm or wrist pains, don't just run blindly to try my advice. Consult your doctor first. (Standard disclaimer to avoid being sued) ;-)
I'd like to ask you some questions about your experiences with the DataHand, since it costs $50 to give it a try. I don't know if you have experienced all the topics, but...
- How is it with:
Emacs
Quake (games in general)
- Are you satisfied with the weight?
- How's the durability? Does it get dirty
and gummy easily? How easy it to clean?
- Did you have any compatibility problems?
- How good is the integrated mouse?
Feel free to mail me..
-- "I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
I find that for pure neato value, the datahand is the coolest keyboard (although the twiddler is also nifty). Since I'm a poor typist, it looks better, since you can't really miss a key (nor, for that matter, can you type improperly, since you have no choice which finger hits which key). Of course, it's also expensive as hell (which is why they don't list the price). It's around $900 for the personal (the Pro II is over $1000).
I think this could be a really neato slashdot topic: badass input devices.
-- "I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
Bloody hard to do graphic editing -- as in CAD or GIS, as well stuff like the GIMP -- without using a pointing device.
:-)
Some people actually *use* apps, even if its only to test their code.
As for using your brain rather than your muscles, what's with all the keyboarding? Get (or make) yourself a good CASE tool.
-- Alastair
I imagine it has a pointing device built in but I've never seen a keyboard pointing device with a satisfactory button placement.
And I agree. Sometimes when you're eating or holding a book open or whatever you need the whole keyboard accessible with one hand.
I already have the complete solution, old fashioned keyboard, old fashioned ball mouse.
the site is toast.
/. effect is all powerful, and some servers can stand up to it, but you at least need to be runnin' something that is capable of handling it. :)
"NT server error number 2"
the
:) it's back up, but a lil' slow.
That mind controlled device that is on the market.. Actually I want to buy one just to play w/.. Wonder how well I could controll Half Life w/ it.. Just sit back, clamp it on your finger, think and watch the frags!
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
... and this is why:
Error Diagnostic Information
An error occurred while attempting to establish a connection to the service.
The most likely cause of this problem is that the service is not currently running. You can use the 'Services' Control Panel to verify that the service is running and to restart it if necessary.
Windows NT error number 2 occurred.
--
hellraiser ( @linuxfreak.com || @nac.net )
awk 'BEGIN { printf "Just another %s hacker\n", ARGV[0] }'
--
hellraiser ( @linuxfreak.com || @nac.net )
awk 'BEGIN { printf "Just another %s hacker\n", ARGV[0] }'
...unless you actually like typical office furnature. As someone who's 6'4", I can imagine my back and neck cramping up after sitting on that chair for about 5 minutes. At least it'll take years before my hands wear out, if ever.
You're a suburbanite.
Look again!
The keyboard is split into two parts. One for the left hand and one for the right. And a nice little touchpad on the right part.
Seems really nice!
Best ergonomic keyboard I've found is the Kinesis. It has two concave keypads, one for each hand and you hardly need to move your wrists at all. Only problem is, you need to be able to use both hands to type - reaching to (e.g.) the right side pad with your left hand is awkward
I do about 90% of my typing left-handed. About all that my right hand uses is the mouse and the number pad. And I'm right handed!
This would be good for typists or data entry people, but I find that I spend much more time revising than actually just typing in stuff.
...the under-the-ass keyboard.
RSI as I understand it is caused by the repetitive action, and only exacerbated by the poor ergonomics of most keyboards. The only cure is for motion detectors on the fingernails and to type on air.
--
E_NOSIG
Some *broken* apps depend on arrow key usage. Sorry for being ambigious.
--- A Jesus Fish eating a Darwin Fish only proves Darwin's point.
I don't see how people can use unix and depend on a mouse at the same time. Unix is based on efficiency. You seriously want me to lift my hand off of the keyboard, put it on the mouse, click a button, then move my hand back to the keyboard a thousand times a day? I can barely stand to take my hand of my vi keys to move it over to the arrow keys, let alone the mouse. It's extremely productive to know all of those keyboard shortcuts. It's the one true way. Use your brain, not your muscles.
--- A Jesus Fish eating a Darwin Fish only proves Darwin's point.
so i'm a college freshman with tendonitis in my hands and varying degrees of other RSI. from my experience, the most damaging thing you can do to your hands is to spend long sessions without breaks. this keyboard is a _bad_ thing as i see it (as are most "ergo" keyboards), because it makes it easier to do so. the reason it's called a "repetitive stress injury" has very much to do with the fact that the muscles in your hands are not intended to be stressed the way they are while typing for extended periods.
the one thing that has made a real difference for me is setting a timer that beeps every 20 minutes so that i know to let go of the keyboard for a couple minutes to relax and stretch my hands. it takes getting used to, but it's well worth it. the pain and tightness in my hands and forearms is now drastically reduced. I haven't felt the sharp burning pain in my back for a while now (letting go of the keyboard also gets me to look up and adjust my posture). I once again feel confident that i will be able to continue my education in CS over the next 3 years and eventually pursue a career in the field.
the breaks also allow me to collect my thoughts, and i believe actually increase my productivity rather than decrease it.
i've already seen a friend of mine (also a freshman, although not here) have severe damage to the nerves in his arms, so i'm paranoid about this kind of stuff.
The Wu Master
Yeah, it looks good. Half of the hardcore geeks out there won't have it because you can't type with one hand.
Madhatter --It's no wonderland out there.
All I can say is "Warp 3 Mr. Sulu!"
--/\/\ark
I agree with Leperjuice.
The Datahand is the coolest keyboard. And it solved my RSI problem. Each finger hits one of five keys, and your finger doesn't have to move far, reducing aggravation to the carpal tunnel.
I find having multiple input devices is the way to beat RSI.
www.datahand.com
When was Workplace Designs bought by Cramer? It looks like I'm not reading the Typing Injury FAQ often enough.
Ripping the chair mounting hardware off the old Floating Arms keyboard is a reasonable enough idea, and making the trackpad available on the left or right is nice, but I still want the numeric keypad on the left.
"Be Happy or Die." -- AoN
Try Alt-F1
You can configure all sorts of weird combos with the control panel keyboard module. Does anyone know how to get the Win95 keys going easily for KDE?
Anyway, I have never liked the split keyboard design. Whenever I am forced to use one, I am always left searching for the 'g' or 'h' on the wrong side.
Jim
I have one of these(the Cramer split keyboard-chairs), had it for about a year now. It is really killer to say the least. As for the touchpad, I have never liked one I've used anywhere. But this one was pretty friggin nice, I got used to it in about a day and I've never used a mouse since then. If I only had a good chair to go with the damned thing, it'd be perfect. But oh well... it's well worth the bucks...
a motor that makes this thing roll a joystick that makes this thing steer so I won't use any of my energy rolling around my lab. Hmm maybe i can even ride home in this thing...
the pain. the sorrow.
Must be running NT.
-
BlackNova Traders
This looks like something that Jerry Seinfeld's crazy neighbour might design and sell.
Maybe he did.
The first screen I get to says "Ergonomics, by Cramer".
Hmm...
"Gird on thy star, We'll have this out with fate." --Ezra Pound