Slashdot Mirror
Storm Linux
Stormix, a Vancouver-based
start-up, has announced the release of Stormix Linux v0.99 Alpha r1, their
first public release. The new distro is based on Debian, and uses
dpkg as its package management system. It seems they have some
new ways of going about things, and even an interesting project called SAS. SAS allows
developers to write a program once and have a text-based and a GUI interface. Thankfully, they
have stated they will release all of their software under the GPL (or a "related" license).
How is the creation of yet another Linux distribution justified? If even half of the two-dozen or so distribution development teams would concentrate on improving one or two major distributions, Linux would be standardized (Unix98 branding? With 30 fervently competing distributions? I don't think so) and not be in so much danger of imploding.
This saddens an old crufty bastard like myself. It seems that the Linux community has learned NOTHING from the tragedy of the UNIX fragmentation failures.
Wake up, community, before Linux ends up a sad footnote on the history of modern computing.
I don't get it why the bsd ppl attack linux so much.
It's just dick-swinging. I've used both OpenBSD and Linux myself (I use the Mandrake distro) and I like both without smacking around either.
>As a FreeBSD user, I am eagerly awaiting the INEVITABLE fragmentation of linux.
... umm NT... or 2000... whatever...
Yeah, so we can all move over to that delightfull unified redmond OS... win95, err 98
Seriously tho, Linux provides a great recruiting ground for *BSD and wishing it fragmented and dead is not going to help FreeBSD at all.
As a FreeBSD user, I am eagerly awaiting the INEVITABLE fragmentation of linux.
...
You are confusing Linux (the kernel) with Linux (the distribution[s])
I dont think that it is a big deal either.
g i?action=intro o mp_os_linux.pl a y.cgi?action=topics&forum=Linux+Kung+Fu&nu mber=4&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=
I spend a bit of time helping out newbies on some web BBS's and most that show up have gone with either Red Hat or Caldera or sometimes Mandrake.
Only experienced linux users are using the niche distros like this latest one.
And since the smaller distro doesnt have the install base of the larger distros, it is in their interest to remain compatible with the more popualr distros.
http://www.trail.com/~popeye/cgi-bin/Ultimate.c
http://www.netalive.org/cgi-bin/netforum2/nao_c
http://forum.arstechnica.com/cgi-bin/forumdispl
Let's say that we have three big ones:
Debian (with Corel)
RedHat
Suse
Other distributions could be local variants, e.g. a Chinese distribution building on one of the three big ones. Or a distribution specialized on a specific architechture. And the distributions doesn't have to be on Linux, they could be ported to other unices.
And if we have LSB, I see no reason why there can't be more distributions. It's still Linux, and then we could still help people with problems on distribution xxx.
There is already a distribution based on Mandrake.
Forget its name right now. If you want to be a true idiot why don't you base your distribution on that.
Actually there are more apps for Linux than for the BSD's. If there weren't why would BSD be trying to run Linux apps. What useful apps are you looking for that you can't find? I do not have the same problem. Stop being arrogant and stupid.
slashdotters got up on the wrong fsckin' side of the bed this morning. i bet half of u didn't even go to the site and check it out. i liked the way the install looked. i'd like to see more people using debian and if it takes an easier install to attract more users, then more power to storm linux.
now i'm gonna go get some sleep
the poster probably sees (counting....) 44 separate, unique, and competing distributions and thinks "it can only get worse".
seriously though, standardization of Linux is a Good Thing.
uh, 4 OPERATING SYSTEMS based around a common code base (4.4BSD-Lite2) does not mean the same thing as almost *50* Linux distributions.
"no big deal"??
there are 40-some linux distributions, and i bet you that only about 25% of them are compatible. if you're a commercial software developer, are you going to even think twice about not porting to "linux"?
So it can't be fragmented
It's just as reasonble to say various version of Linux as it is to say various versions of Unix. In fact, since Linux is one set of versions of Unix, you now have various versions of various versions. The "distro" marketing terms fool no one.
Isn't Debian less a SysV version of Linux than
it is a BSD one? If so, that would be welcome relief.
"GNU/Linux"? I thought the FSF distribution was called Hurd.
What is that now, 20? ;-)
Any comment with "GNU/Linux" in it should be automaticly moderated down as flame-bate. This is just the Gnufree Software Foundation pushing there agendums on us, trying to make us argue.
As soon as the FSF makes their own Linux distribution, they get to call it GNU/Linux. Anything else is a self-serving lie.
I agree, the number of distributions is getting to a point where the Linux community *looks* fragmented -- despite the fact that "fragmented" in the UNIX sense means broken into incompatible versions, and there are few if any such splits in Linux that meet that requirement.
So let's extract our thumbs from their current residences, stop whining, stop making panicked plans to abandon the ship at the first sign of trouble... honestly, how many of you thought the code level was the only one where you'd find bugs??
What the Linux community needs now is for someone to draw up a chart *showing* that Mandrake is just RH with blah-de-blah extra; Stormix is Debian with the addition of SAS, et cetera... so people can realize that the "fragmented" Linux community, far from being weak and ready to die, is engaging in a super-evolutionary process: instead of individuals trying out their own mutations and the one or two most beneficial of a generation becoming the new baseline, it's individual projects trying out their mutations and ALL of the successes being available to the next generation...
Oh, and to those BSD users who 'can't wait to see Linux die'... grow up. You sound like Joe Barr.
I didn't realize that slashdot was such a pro-Linux and anti-BSD place. Was that in its charter, or is it just because all the teenagers without real jobs have nothing to do but diddle Linux and post here?
heck no, nothing beautiful about splintering distributions and lack of standards.
linux needs to standardize before it implodes. then again.. maybe that's a good thing.
I for one am really fucking tired of the fucking famous people getting fucking good moderation just for being fucking famous.
if you notice, most of the fragmentation posts are by LINUX USERS. wake up and realize that linux is losing.
where's the moderation button for stupid-tear-jerking-philosophical-bull$hit?
I don't think that rms would get a 10 in the swim-suit competition. Now jwz... maybe.
the poison is fragmentation and in-fighting.
someone needs to pull the plug on this doomed project
that's what psychologists call a 'god complex', i think.
(psst, BSD Lite is where much of current BSDs started). Anyway, there's also Irix, Ultrix, SunOS 4, MacOS X, ...
How about... Irix, Ultrix, SunOS 4.x, MacOS X, probably a lot more.
Losing is a way of saying 'obnoxious or unusually stupid'. See the jargon file.
haha, U HAVE FOUND UZ OUT. we are all m$ employees acting like bsd users for amusement and entertainment.
read the comments, chucklebrain. most people upset about the splintered linux distributions are linux users.
1. read 2. ponder 3. respond. you failed to do steps 1 & 2.
As far as that goes, Linux feels more like Solaris, and BSD feels more like SunOS. And both feel more like each other than they do AIX or PH/UX.
HEHEHEHEE GO BACK TO CUBA U PINKO
I agree. In the old days, this is what we'd call a "BSD jihad"; that is, BSD users go all-out trying to discredit their target of choice (SysV, Linux, whatever) and end up looking like the stuffed shirt bastards they really are. FreeBSD is a great operating system, but some of the userbase are utter fools.
Don't forget Bruce Perens, the open-source turncoat. His posts are also jacked up just from being famous. In fact, I think he even starts at two. What the fuck is that noise? How do I get the bit set in my user profil that says I'm famous so I get to start at two???????????
Anyone using "GNU/Linux" instead of the correct Linux should get flame-bate moderated. But BSD and Linux by themselves aren't bate.
vi? vi??? What are you dreaming about? Name three famous hackers who actually use that joke! Hell, just name one!
As a user of commercial Unix systems, I find this BSD vs Linux to go both ways. The Linux bigots seem worse. Maybe that's because there are so many more Linux systems than BSD systems. And at least as viscious. Plus that doesn't even bring the GPL ravers into the picture. It's not true that it's a one-way street here.
Because Debian is so concerned with quality, but the apps are updated so quickly, the stable dist is usually trailing-edge by the time it's released.
Instead of just taking the stable dist and adding a few install gui's like these guys are doing, I would prefer to see a company which actively participates in Debian devel and puts out CD's of parts of the unstable tree (just a few limited profiles, not the whole thing) which they have managed to make "stable".
Of course Linux is not Unix. That's just a marketing lie. You want non-Unix? MacOS (well, until OS X) is not Unix. W2K is not Unix. VMS is not Unix. See the difference? Please stop spreading the myth. Now compare those non-Unix systems with AIX, IRIX, Solaris, BSD, HP/UX, Digital Unix, Linux, or SCO. *THOSE* are all Unix. Anything else is counting angels on the head of a pin. This is just a marketing trick of repackaging old stuff. Please don't try to spoof tech people.
Here is how I make the distinction:
Unix includes: Solaris, Linux, *BSD, Irix, AIX, etc.
UNIX(r) includes: Solaris, SCO, Irix, AIX, and other commercial operating systems which are branded as such by the X/Open group.
sad
for in the times of peace
i remember
a small kernel, linux.
now factions
fight here, fight there
no accomplishment. only waste.
press reads of fighting
linux it's luster loses
everyone now, another operating system chooses.
At least those that have a default environment... Even FBSD CVS has KDE as the default.
Some of us have real jobs and kids. The last thing we want is to come home and drool over more C code while our kids eat junkfood and watch tv.
I'm more than happy to pay someone else to develop linux, cripes, I'm not on welfare.
My time is more valuable to me than money.
That's why we have DIVISION OF LABOR in society you nits.
As is Sas...
Actually, with Debian, you can bootstrap the entire installation from a directory on a FAT
partition or CDROM.
While the author's use of the word dying might not have been the most diplomatic choice of language, there is some truth to his premise. BSD has never been able to break away from its reputation as an "also ran". The latest blow came when Amiga rejected BSD for its project because of the uncertainty of BSD future. But the most devistating blow already occured years ago when Sun discarded BSD and built its future around Solaris, a complete abandonment of BSD. One small glimmer of hope was the use of BSD as a bit of glue for the Mac OS X. But even there the real story is that Mac OS X is built on a Mach kernel with a NeXT interface. It is more or less a reincarnation of Nextstep. BSD will likely always have its special interest groups but I think BSD missed its chance years ago and never recovered.
fuck! shit! ass whore. fucking whore. punk-ass motherfucker. fuck you!
>Ultimately someone like RedHat is going to see the insanity hurting their business and they are simply going to say "we're the standard, we're going to drive development" and thats that.
Although there is obviously a slight risk of this, the open source nature of Linux development means that No harm should result.
If RH make a bunch of bad, profit-only driven decisions which morph their distro into a sub NT clone which noone wants to use, Someone can just grab the source, fix the problems & re-distribute it.
Where is the problem?
Stu. (I'm at home - cant be arsed logging in!)
Doh. In fact BSD is already dead. Real BSD died when the CSRG died. That was the last of official BSD. The software using the BSD name now is the work of hobbyists and is not the work of the CSRG.
/* What exactly are the bounds of this so-called linux entity? */
assert(distro != OS)
assert(OS != kernel)
assert(app != package)
assert(package != source)
assert(binary != executable)
assert(platform != CPU)
/* So what does this all mean? */
assert(ac != troll)
assert(handle != genius)
/* Ok computer, something trancendentalistic */
assert(Stormix != Stampede)
assert(IsLinux(IsDistro(Stormix))
assert(IsLinux(IsDistro(Stampede))
assert(superfragilistic)
/* What say ye of business? */
assert(market != monopoly)
assert(competition != death)
assert(computer != human)
assert(corporation != machine)
assert(code == speech)
assert(reproduction != evolution)
assert(brain == computer)
assert(business)
/* Humor me
assert(IsLaughable(IsTautology((People && Computers) == (Logic && Truth)))
assert(IsDevilish(Mascot(FreeBSD)))
assert(IsArctic(Mascot(Linux)))
assert(IsTransparent(Mascot(Microsoft))
everything="42"
for each in everything ; do
assert(IsOdd(Mascot(each)))
done
/* $Id$ */
# The General Debugger
You have some distributions that are geared towards making small systems, like the Linux Router Project.
You have some distributions that are based off of one another, like the 158 RedHat based distributions... but each one has its own merit. Each one is different. And since most / all of the software is open, new changes can be incorporated back into RedHat if they are good and they are what RedHat is interested in. RedHat might not be interested in having to support a MkLinux port -- but having MkLinux have a RedHat base allows the MkLinux people to get a great headstart on having a nice distribution.
And are these distributions incompatable? If a distribution is libc5, then maybe they can't run libc6 binaries. (But then again, there are incompatabilities between glibc 2.07 and 2.1... but I digress)... But things tend to compile out-of-the-tarball on most distributions I have seen.
If the Debian people love their package manager, then they will do everything to make it the best. Likewise, RedHat folks try to make the unbeatable RPM. Slackware folks just stick to a tarball with a script. Does this mean that if everyone used Slackware that tar would would have features like rpm or dpkg? Of course not. Different distributions foster growth and new ideas. Different distributions appeal to different groups of users with different tastes or hardware platforms.
And having their own distribution probably helps Stormix keep tabs on the systems that they have to support. They can make sure that the packages they want to support are in their distribution and that packages they don't want to deal with aren't. This is an amazing feature of Linux, one that will make it (in my opinion) great for companies doing support. They don't lose anything (compatability with debian means most things work really easy) and they gain immensely (they control what they have to support). And after they've modified the distro how they want, why not offer it to everyone else? It costs them little. If three random users have it fill a need, great. And if no one uses it besides their customers, well that is fine, too.
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Agree totally! The last thing Linux needs is any more choice. So, to solve this, I hearby suggest that we remove all references to copying and modifying from the GPL and related licenses. This is the core of what allows any yahoo out there to make something based off of some other set of apps. Obviously this does nothing but bad for the community. Further, without the requirement to release patches, et al under the GPL, real innovation will be able to occur as companies make their own proprietary versions.
Next since SUSE is leading in sales, I say we make it the one true Linux. If anyone is not using it, then we should send them to New Zealand or something. And since SUSE has KDE, GNOME needs to go by the wayside as well. And since most new users will be confused by crazy command lines, we can do away with them as well. Besides, who makes utilities so archaic anyways? If there isn't a GUI to it, it must be inferior/antiquated.
Only if we do away with the other 68.239 distributions, applications, etc will there be any future in Linux. Allowing people to just copy/modify anything without approval from one central person (I suggest me) is pure lunacy!
I think I've grown up too...
This is the good ol' US of A, where suing is a sport. It's too much trouble to sue for something so trivial clear across the great oceans. But here, it's a sin not to sue, even if the two products are not competing, not even mistakable for the same thing, etc.
It was a pain to install? Funny, I did it with one command. Gotta love APT. :)
Yes, whoever you are reading this right now. What is it that you have done to further the Linux community. Have you helped to add anything to the LSB? Have you provided any useful feedback or positive criticism for any product available for Linux?
Perhaps some of you have. Possibly many of you. But to those of you who haven't (and I am one of them), stop complaining about everything that you see straying from the norm. This seems like Europe in the 15th century! Luther "recently" started the reformation with his ninety-five theses and suddenly people are beginning to wonder about what they had accepted up until that point. (not to say the repercussions have even close to the same significance here as they did for Luther and the world in general) We have the OS equivalent of the inquisition running here.
"Do you believe in the one true distribution as the one true church has seen fit for you to believe?"
"Yes... well mostly, except that I'd like this feature added"
"Well, then you shall be flamed for your beliefs and audacity to feel differently than the church has ordained for you!"
Do we really need a force like Catholicism running our operating systems? If you see a true problem with the way that these distributions are dealing with things, then talk to one of the standards groups out there. Ask them what you can do to help develop standards for whatever it is that you feel needs standardization. At the vary least, read the Linux Advocacy How-To. But don't cry "Foul" every time something happens that you don't like.
something clever
Oh, grow up.
BSD's are doing well. Just not as well as Linux. There's certainly plenty of room for both in the "marketplace".
Come on, there's nothing wrong with another Linux distro. BSD certainly won't leave it behind. They will remain (hopefully) keen competitors for many years to come.
(heck, I love my FreeBSD, but I certainly don't want Linux to disappear!)
to suggest a usable interface . . .
The interface, documentation, and particularly the on-line help are so bad in SAS that it tends to be easier to start from scratch and write in Fortran. That stupid program is still emulating a card reader in its handling of data sets. Once I figured this out, I coudl predict its eccentricities and limitations.
Regarding there being lots of distros, anyway, I perceive this as a strength. For instance, I believe Mandrake kept Redhat on its toes by offering Redhat + KDE back when Redhat refused to ship KDE - citing licensing objections as the reason. Now, Redhat includes a version of KDE shipping with pre-2.0 qt, which has the same licensing terms as it did when they refused to ship it. Also, Mandrake is becoming Pentium-optimized (may be already, I don't follow it too closely, so I'm not sure).. This puts additional pressure on Redhat and co to do something similar. Simply put - competition. Which means, even when merging doesn't take place, the "dominant" distros will tend to copy the successful ideas, in effect using the upstarts as testbeds.
Aside from competition, "custom-tailoring" can be nice as well. For instance, Debian encourages others to base distributions on Debian, and has recently partnered with Corel. This sort of thing is mutually beneficial, because the end-user may want the technical qualities of Debian, but think it's too hard to use, or want it to be stronger in some other area - like Linux for hams, or an office-specific distro with only DFSG-free office apps already nicely laid out to make it easy to set up a workstation for a secretary, for instance. I don't see how any of these would cause real problems. Users will care about how easily they can get j random app to run on their system, and those who don't provide support with what's out there probably won't stay around long. If the users want compatability, it's obvious where to get it.
For the record, I use Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD and Solaris daily. Although Solaris gets on my nerves at times, all of them have their endearing qualities.
> SAS allows developers to write a program once
> and have a text-based and a GUI interface.
...not to mention its strong build-in support for statistical analysis.
Good luck to Storm! Its good to see a Debian
based commercial distribution. I don't see any
reason why new distributions cannot be useful and
successful if they can differentiate their
product. But if the ability to differentiate
is eroded we'll start seeing more mergers, I
guess.
GNU/Linux vs. *BSD posts should be moderated down_because they are so devoid of character, about like KDE vs. GNOME.
Look folks, if flaming is so much fun, why not bring out the old warhorses, such as emacs vs. vi or c vs. c++.
This recent spate of *BSD vs. GNU/Linux tripe suggests the cute conspiracy theory of MSFT-instigated rabble-rousing. They certainly are capable of such dumb stuff--ask any OS/2er. :)
Generally, GNU/Linux and *BSD advocates are reasonable people. But this morning there is a crazed Anonymous COWARD who is making *BSD look extremely uncool. I don't care, no matter how hard he tries, I will still try out FreeBSD.
I think what this AC-run-amok really is trying to say is that the GPL sucks. Although I agree, there is a problem: which license out there is better? I haven't found it yet.
But you are just really kidding, aren't you? If you really had a conviction on the matter, you would be trying to come up with a better license. Until then, I will do all I can to promote all things GPL. And there's many more like me--don't believe me? Just check out how things are getting licensed on Freshmeat!
Regarding yet another GNU/Linux distribution, I think too many people fail to appreciate evolutionary behavior and competitive benefits.
This GNU/Linux vs. *BSD thing is so silly. How many of us like one or the other? Quite a few, huh? Well, what's the problem, then? Here is an idea for any doubters: work on fun projects that benefit both, such as KDE, GNUStep, or GNOME. I hope this settles this pathetically petty bickering.
No, the canonical form is GNU/kernel, where kernel is Linux, Hurd, etc.
As soon as the FSF makes their own Linux distribution
I think you are confused, AC. You don't mean distribution, you mean kernel, right? Don't worry about it, the Hurd still lives and GNU/Hurd will eventually be released by Debian. When? I am not sure, the FSF is a non-prophet organization. :)
Ahem...
FreeBSD
NetBSD
OpenBSD
BSDI
What am I forgetting?
To say BSD isn't fragmented is... Well, it's rather obvious what it is.
I was refer to licensing issues, as they apply to Linux. I Linux is Unix depends on how you define Unix. If you use POSIX then Linux is as much Unix as the rest. It lacks the branding, and the Bell Lab code base. At best Linux is a reimplimentation of Unix.
IANALBIPOOGL (I am not a Lawyer, but I play one on GrokLaw.)
Okay, folks lets do a little research here.
A minute of research
Contentions:
They are swiping Debian. They have stated that "We will be using the GPL or a related license for all of our products." So if Debian want's their install then nothing is stopping them. The Debian developers as a whole need to figure out if they wish to be a main stream distro, or a custom distro for Debian developers and power users. There isn't a right or wrong choice in this.
This is a KDE distro? It includes both GNOME, and KDE. Is there something wrong with choice? There are no rational people who content that GNOME is currently more stable than KDE. Given the relative ages of the 2 projects this isn't an attempt to slander GNOME. Stabity is relative to what you use the desktop for, however.
As far as KDE looking like windows. This is a good thing. (IMHO) I want people using linux, and KDE gets former windows users up and productive quickly. Once they are using linux they may find GNOME more to their liking. Personally I prefer E without gnome, but I really only use a WM for holding up xterms/Eterms/kvts, and netscape.
Another sign of Linux fragmentation. Ok folks repeat after me "Linux is not Unix". There is this little thing called the GPL. This means that anything produced under it can be used or adapted by anyone. This means that we can take the best of any distro and use it in another distro. In addition many of the so called distro are simply value added version of another distro. Mandrake Linux is a good example of this.
It's not in Stormix's best interest to get too far away from Debian. Once Stromix breaks with Debian they need to start doing all the heavy lifting themselves. By same token it's in their best interest to see Debian impliment many of their changes so they don't need to reimpliment everything every new release.
Note: My views should not be take to reflect the views of VALinux. They have been known to incite internal flame wars. This of course is sometimes part of the fun;-)
--
Don't look at me I'm just a mushroom.
IANALBIPOOGL (I am not a Lawyer, but I play one on GrokLaw.)
The commercial vehndors were not trying to 'add value' purely for the good of their health, you know. I would say that greed (or commerce, however you want to call it) played a significant part. Any added value was only available to the purchasers of that particular product and in the end resulted in a lack of choice for the consumer.
The Linux distros 'add value' too - both in the form of choice & flexibility and also by bundling extra software which is useful for the tasks the distro is intended to solve. (e.g. Caldera OpenLinux has a shedload of NetWare utils)
The big benefit with Open Source software is that this added value is available to a much wider auidience.
-- Stu
It may look as though Linux is going through the same fragmentation as UNIX went through, but this is not really true.
When UNIX fragmented, it was due to the competing vendors adding proprietary extras, closing up the code and introducing deliberate incompatibilities in order to lock in customers.
The various Linux distros, on the other hand, are all rooted in the same code base, are largely compatible with each other (bar a few different directory placings & choice of package management, etc) and by & large are not trying to lock out their competition.
Also,of the vast number of distros, a large number are specialist installs or micro distributions for narrow purposes (such as rescue disks, routers, simple IP masquerading for windows networks, etc) and do not need to be 100% code compatible with their mainstream counterparts.
Just chill out, there is room for everybody, it is going to be ok.
-- Stu
Bah. Why does this exact (almost word-for-word) paragraph about BSD and WC's impending death seem to pop up with such monotonous regularity? Are the trolls so bereft of new material that they've been reduced to form-letter trolls? :-)
:-)
:)
Needless to say, Walnut Creek CDROM is still very much in business and probably selling more FreeBSD than ever before. FreeBSD has been doing so well that we're even putting on our first conference this year, and I can tell you that such exercises ain't cheap. See http://www.freebsdcon.com for more information on that, and I guess I should thank this troll for giving me an excellent opportunity for a plug as well!
Walnut Creek CDROM also isn't technically for sale unless you have a really big pile of money, of course, in which case by all means let's talk. Like all high-tech companies, the idea of merger or sale for the kind of $$$ which would enable them to get to the next size threshold isn't exactly a new or manifestly unwelcome one.
Welcome to the real world, your trollness, and I'm sorry that you're so clearly unable to deal with it.
- Jordan Hubbard co-founder, the FreeBSD Project. Director, UNIX Technology. Apple Computer
Urk, I hate to reply to myself, but whoops - looks like www.freebsdcon.com hasn't cleared the NIC yet so please use http://www.freebsdcon.org instead for now. They'll both point to the same place shortly. :)
- Jordan Hubbard co-founder, the FreeBSD Project. Director, UNIX Technology. Apple Computer
score all the ridiculous fragmentation posts down as trolls (because 9/10 of them are). So a herd of BSD users saw fit to come and flame linux. Go back to BSD, I don't care what you use.
And while I'm off topic, why does everyone moderate up posts by famous people, even if they're trolls or otherwise off topic or uninteresting? It's annoying. "Oh, I noticed jwz/Tom Christiansen/RMS/ESR made a post! I'll have to score that as a '10'". Who cares? We're all in this together.
support gun control: take guns from cops
I happen to like BSD, I just don't like the snobbery of (some of) their users (like you). Linux people never flame BSDers, it always starts the other way 'round. And of course, no, not all of them are like that.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Linux is losing what? What is it losing?
I'm starting to think MS is hiring all these AC's to come over here pretending to be BSD users flaming linux. Now that's a good tactic!
support gun control: take guns from cops
There has always been discussions in the past of Linux fragmenting like Unix... how may distro's now:
Caldera
Debian (aka Stormix)
RedHat (aka Linux Mandrake)
Slackware
Stampede
Suse
I know I am missing some help me out...
Awesome!
Why does BSD look appealing just because another distro has appeared? I agree it's probably a bad thing, but why does it affect your current system?
Thank god for FreeBSD. One distribution, released 4 times a year. How very very SANE.
Change the record. The linux kernel is released on a regular basis. The distibutions of Linux are a completely different thing. And bashing on Linux users because they have a new kernel to play with is sheer stupidity. Has it occurred to any of you that some people actually like being able to use brand new hardware almost straight away, rather than having to wait up to 3 months for it? Above all, its fun. Stop fucking complaining about it. You don't use it, so whats the problem?
This is the third or fourth time I have seen *this specific paragraph* posted on /. Me thinks that someone just blindly posts it whenever they see "FreeBSD" on slashdot.
Because vi is superior and we all see what happened to the c++ bandwagon...
F /...
INSERT SMILEYS WHERE APPROPRIATE
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
- those with a particular target audience, area of application etc., like Trinux
- the "generic" distributions, which differ mostly in their licensing and other political considerations and try to cater for all users
While the first kind of distributions is extremely useful and I'd like to see more of them (e.g. Linux specifically for laptops, with a mostly ramdisk-based installation and very few disk accesses), the generic kind results in too much duplication of efforts and too little diversity to have a good reason to exist in such large numbers. Newcomers to the market like Stormix will have to realize that they need to offer more than just yet another distro for Joe User in order to take market share away from the established distributors like RH, SuSE (and to some extent, Debian and Corel)."I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
I checked out their FTP, it's REALLY slow, any mirrors? Is there even an ISO on the FTP?
Thanks,
Ben
(currently using Debain Potato)
I've been using Potato for a few weeks now, and it's GREAT! At least as stable as RedHat/Mandrake 6.0 or SuSE 6.1 (yes, I tried 'em all)
Potato is wonderful, but was a MAJOR pain to install (but I got through it.)
I really hope that Corel's Debian based distro picks the unstable branch, and not slink.
That's all from me!
Ben
NetBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi, FreeBSD... That's four. And each with a different kernel.
You know, Linux is just succesful and you are just jealous. Would FreeBSD be as succesful as Linux, you know there would be MyBSD, YourBSD, PepeBSD, JohnBSD, UltraBSD, BSDragon, SBSD, BSDPower, Calavera BSD, BSDLight, YKZBSS, TheBSD, White Cup BSD, BSDebian, RealBSD and more.
All those companies are just making distributions of a succesful OS.
And all those BSD would be really worse than all the GNU/Linux, since all GNU/Linux distributions at least use the same kernel.
Alejo.
Yes, it means BSDs are far less succesful. Would they be as succesful as GNU/Linux, you know there would be around 50 different BSDs.
And that is measuring success in number of users.
Alejo.
I bet you that 99% of them, if not more, use either libc5 or glibc, and they all use the same kernel. It means I can use anything standard (fork, sockets, pthreads on glibc-based, flock, fcntl...) on any of them and my programs will compile out of the tar on any of them. I doubt, for example, that the Apache guys had any difficulty getting Apache to work on GNU/Linux because of so-called 'fragmentation'.
This whole fragmentation deal is to me just FUD against GNU/Linux from both the WinNT and the BSD people.
And, in the latter case, I find it ironic since I believe that would BSD be as succesful as GNU/Linux is, we would have 50 BSD distributions. At least all GNU/Linux distributions share the kernel and the C library.
Alejo.
Why do we even need another distribution? I know stormix probably wants to make money off of services/support (didn't look too closely at the site though) - but why do they need their own (derivitive) distribution? Why not just support debian? They could then add any improvements, ie, their text/graphical installation utility (I don't see what the big push is recently torwards having an X based install program - why bother?) to the base system if it complies with debian guidelines...
Instead, they just blindely rip off all the hard work debian users have done (yes, I know they legally can, but that doesn't mean I like it any more) and slap a few utilities into it and call it storm linux.
Like we need any more derivitive distributions...
Hey, let's mirror debian, run a text search and replace and replace all occurances of the word 'debian' with 'slashdot' and distribute our own slashdot linux!
"Better close the windows, the storm's coming in" - a quote or something like that from the stormix site.
I hope to die peacefully in my sleep like grandpa, not screaming like his passengers.
Well, there's a fine line to be tread, that's for sure.
I have no problem with someone who lifts some gpl code to use as part of their project or as part of a bigger program, like say, using code from hmm, eject or something to use as a part of a removable disk management program. But if they just took the eject code, renamed the binary to ejector and re-released it, what's the point? That's basically what I'm seeing going on here. The only thing that I see them writing is a utility that lets applications be either Xwindowed or ncurses based. Then they are just taking all the packages and code that debian developers worked real hard to crank out - and there's a lot of packages.
I don't know, if there were more major differences, I would have a different opinion if stormix had more differences from debian...
But as it is, it's just a plain lift... Oh, I'm sure they'll have to write a script to go through all the packages to replace debian with storm...
There's a difference between using and extending (egad, do I sound like microsoft there?) and just using...
I don't even know why this peeves me so much. Usually I'm more than happy to share the fruits of my work (graphics and code stuff) . . .
I hope to die peacefully in my sleep like grandpa, not screaming like his passengers.
I think that this is good. I hope that the nice GUI installation makes its way back to debian. The one thing that I found difficult about debian 2.0 was the install.
If debian gets easier to install, I may consider switching distros, or atleast running it too :-)
Someone asked why another distro? Why not? If the LSB does a good job, then we can have many thriving distros, and companies will not have to do anything to port from 1 distro to another. The program should work out of the box.
The only problems is the packageing deb, tgz and rpm for Slack, debian, and RH.
I think that this is good! IMHO and I am entitled to it!
Only 'flamers' flame!
The *BSD ppl are having a linux bashing fit, but really, with LSB on the way, i don't see any problems with having a lot of distros.
Right now, i don't see any of these so called damages done by fragmentation, and when I see some concrete problems, which i seriously doubt i ever will thanks to the above mentioned LSB, we will deal with that then. Probably with adjustments to LSB.
Hence, the fix is already on the way. So give it a rest.
(since everyone else is doing it =) I'm a Linux and OpenBSD user. I like both, even freebsd. I don't get it why the bsd ppl attack linux so much.)
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
common guys - that is not a troll!
its got an aggressive title but the body text is perfectly well reasoned - disagreeing with somebody is not a good enough reason to moderate them down.
If you don't like what somebody says then disagree - post a response but just screaming troll does nobody any good.
What this gus is saying is no different to some +2/3 posts - basically that there is a danger of linux distros fragmenting and producing proprietry incompatabilities.
It could happen - particually with some of the software which is now being bundled (ie ViaVoice with RH 6.0).
I'm very temped to move to that distro purely to try voice rec under linux and thus far haven't taken the time to figure out how to make it work with another distro. Is that fragmentation?
We now have SuSE still running on the libc but most others are now on glibc - afaik this normally only needs a recompile to fix but it can be a problem.
But more to the point what will the LSB actually do? as I understand it, it will descibe a core of libraries/utilities which should be present. This should allow developers to code well behaved linux apps - but it doesn't force them to. Besides novice coders may not be fully aware of which libraries thier software links against - they may just link to everything and let the compiler sort out the mess.
We are already seeing software which is only certified for a particular distro (Oracle and RH5.2), mostly this software can be persuaded to run on other distros (we have Oracle running under SuSE 5.1 here at work) but the end user needs to spend some time chasing down the FAQ's and deciding if they are happy to change their set of libraries just to support one new package.
All of this said I am in favor of different distros - Open source development seems to be based entirely upon evolution. Without a set of distributions how can we be sure that the eventual dominant vendor is best of breed in any sense of the phrase.
just some thoughts - moderate as you will
Tom
"Instead, they just blindely rip off all the hard work debian users have done (yes, I know they legally can, but that doesn't mean I like it any more)"
Isn't that the point of free software? So that other people can use it? If the developers desire other people to use their source code, then they'll release it as open source. If they didn't want people to modify anything without their explicit permission, they wouldn't have done so.
If you are a developer, and you get upset that other people can copy, distribute and modify your source code, then why would you do such a fscking stupid thing as releasing it under a free software license?
And if you aren't a developer, what business is it of yours if a developer allows other people to use his or her work?
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Stop complaing about all the distros. The more the better, I say. Why I say this is becuase if the distro has good ideas behind it then it should help later on down the road.
Slashmeat is one that has some revolutionary ideas (yes i'm solicating again) behind it. There is a webpage, but it's still a bit under contruction, but you have to take things slow. But if you want to make a revolutionary linux, email me at the email about (take the spam part out) or ar cisco-kid@cybermail.net or icq me @ 1763538
The webpage, if you want to see the pretty graphics is at http://members.xoom.com/slashmeat
I ate my tag line.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
In the past few news items, I've noticed and increasing number of posts complaining about Linux. Note the large number of posts complaining about fragmentation (a good thing) in this item. There's also a large number of posts in the Amiga item complaining about the fact that they're going to use Linux. Am I just paranoid? Does anyone know what's happening? Are people turning away from Linux or is this some organized operation?
VisualTCL allows the same program to run in text or GUI modes. SCO used it for all their admin tools. VisualTCL creates unattractive text interfaces, imho, but maybe that was how SCO used it.
Too many people here make generalizations about users of this, users of that , and users of t'other.
:-)* and still much less than Debian's annoying 7 disks (I hate floppies). Then I'll put that Storm disc in and try that, too. It'll be a learning experience, I haven't turned the damn thing on since I tried out OpenLinux on it a couple of weeks ago (everything about it seems unfinished, the manual, the install, the amount of software, the tutorial it dumps you in at first startup).
:-)*
It's boring me.
I'm thinking of trying out FreeBSD on my computer I try out OSes on (I'm downloading Storm as I write, though I wish they allowed NFS install in this release, so I could avoid those oh-so-slow CDROMs). I thought about doing it before but some vocal people turned me off. I decided to try out Solaris, which I borrowed from school, only to find out there was no support for my hardware (and my Millenium G200 and 10GB disk were not supported).
When I first got into Linux (1993) that kind of stuff was almost non-existant. That's no longer the case, but I've invested so much time and am completely dependant on it.
There are certain personality types that are everywhere. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are a Debian user, a GNOME user, a BSD user, a win user, a Mac user, a Ford driver, a VW driver. It's their personality, which isn't shaped by what OS they use, what car they drive or what country they're from (at least I hope not!).
Because of these people, generalizations are made about the products they use. STOP IT! Ignore them if you wish or do what I do: see what all of the fuss is about so that if you reply, you might actually have something insightful to say rather than making assumptions. You might even like what they blarbling about. I installed SuSE just to see what GNOME was all about (I used Slackware from '93 to a few months ago). I didn't like GNOME (gmc was severely disappoining, I'm a long time mc/nc user) but I ended up liking SuSE. Now I have SuSE on two machines (my notebook is still 100% Slack though, and it'll probably stay that way) and I have another box to try stuff out on.
So I have the FreeBSD page open in another window and I'm going to download those 2 floppies. Twice as many as SuSE
So I'll just shut up and continue downloading now
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the business model for a company in the OSS environment?
As money cannot be made off the GPL's software itself, the most common means of revenue generation that I seem to see people pointing to here is support, or other value-added services.
This is the same thing that Red Hat, et al. do to raise funds, so why is there a great upcry about it here? If the distro sells, then there is more added to the community. Is SAS takes off, then eventually others will adopt it. If it is weak, then it will fail, as is supposed to happen in a competitive environment, where only what is good & useful is kept by the community.
I'm just at a loss as to why there is so much gnashing of teeth regarding the release of another distro. This is supposed to be a good thing, people.
--sugarman--
--sugarman--
I think the SAS institute MIGHT have a problem with that name! For those of you who don't know, they are a big time vendor of Multi platform statistical Analysis software
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
While interviewing for jobs and such, I've seen more companies using FreeBSD for their work than linux. FreeBSD is especially popular with corporations because any in-house improvements they make can be sold without any of the restrictions of the GPL.. And I know at least around me I've seen growth of the FreeBSD userbase around me. Though among normal computer enthusiasts around me I see more linux than FreeBSD, both are growing in the community I know. I personally run linux still, but I've gone back and forth on which I run.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
That's not perfectly right. Extreme Linux is a very specialized distribution for clustering, so most of the market would ignore that product. And of course you included the linux floppy distributions,and anyone in their right minds would not use a floppy distribution for everyday stuff. I am slightly bothered by the fragmentation, but they all have to remain compatible with one of the major distros (Debian, Redhat, Suse) SO I don't see it as that big of a problem so far...
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
As a FreeBSD user I'd ask you to think a little harder. Why do you want Linux to fragment? Why wish their efforts, which cross-pollinate with
the *BSD all the time and which have benefited us
hugely?
The difference between Linux and FreeBSD is one of philosophy and style, not or religion or technical merit. Stop acting as if it's a children's gang or a football team.
Mind you, the Linux heads who bash FreeBSD are just as silly. No need to fall to their level.
I have this vision of Microsoft running training camps in the desert for Open Source Infiltration where they teach hand-to-hand fighting, demolition and how to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt.
Colman
BSD is used in hundreds of commercial applications, from companies with special purpose video processing or security technology to consumer-ended companies such as Apple with their MacOS X. In fact, BSD more easily lends itself to this kind of thing in a non-trivial number of commercial environments than does Linux. You may not like this, but that's the way it is.
Repeating an untruth has no effect on its veracity.
I wonder if they got the idea of calling it Storm while drinking a can of Storm from Pepsi?
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
There is a big difference between stormix and Debian. Stormix is being produced by a company looking for money, Debian is not.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
I have been slowly upgrading from Slink to Potato over the past 2 months.
Of course I have been downloading the OS piece at a time since March due to the fact that I used the 7 disk install and apt on a 33.6 modem. The only thing that I have found painful is the speed of my modem.
TCI HURRY UP AND GET CABLE MODEMS IN BOULDER! September to October isn't fast enough!
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
Isn't this the beauty of OSS, rather than a downfall?
What is wrong with the ability to customize to suit taste? It just creates a broader range. I wouldn't worry about fragmentation, because nearly all distributions are based on the model of one of the major few. If a distribution can't keep up, it dies. It's that simple.
Just hope the British Special Air Service doesn't take offence!
The British SAS does NOT sue.....they double-tap. That means they put two 9mm rounds in your head. They also don't care where you are. Ask the IRA (and NO, that doesn't stand for Idaho Racoon Association).
Isn't lots of competition a sign of a healthy, growing marketplace? The linux distribution business is relatively new and still developing. If there are too many distributions, then some of them will die or merge with others, it's natural for a new market. Besides, the more companies that spend dollars advertising linux, the more users will be attracted to the platform.
:)
The only downside may be the appearance of a fragmented OS, but as long as the vendors don't start slagging each other's distributions, that won't be so bad either.
Mind you, I may be biased because they're a Canadian company and it's nice to see a Canuck distribution
According to the installation procedure on their website, you can choose either GNOME or KDE as your desktop during installation (although they seem to encourage users to pick GNOME)
I have a problem with a distribution (prerelease or final) that is available for download *only* as an ISO image. Looking at the screenshots it says that installation from anything other than CD is currently unavailable. I'm not that anxious to burn a CD just to take it for a spin, and having to hack on the installer myself defeats half the reason for getting a distribution instead of rolling my own. Since the other options are there in the screenshot, I'm guessing that they will be around in the final release, but will they actually work the first time?