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Red Hat Unveils Linux E-Commerce Server
Wonko42 writes "The subject pretty much says it all; Red Hat is now selling its new E-Commerce server for $149.99. The server is packaged with several other programs, including the Netscape Roaming Module, Squid proxy, and Webalyzer web server log analyzer. And of course, it's built to run on Red Hat 6.0. "
You're too late. It already is.
How DID they deal with Mozilla? Last I heard they had a handful of developers that are winding down, and they've fired everyone else. Not exactly a lucrative situation for anybody involved.
-Easy to use database
How long is a piece of string? Defining easy to use is harder than defining pornography.
-Graphical database tools
-Simple, graphical server/e-store configuration tools
I don't particularly want these, but I see their inclusion in the grand scheme of things. I don't personally trust what I can't script.
-Web authoring tools
vi, Xemacs, The GIMP, xv, ee...
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
6.0 is glitzy and all, but it's not very stable, in my experience.
Funny -- when I read that it came with the "Netscape roaming module," I assumed what they were talking about *is* mod_roaming. It definitely *doesn't* say it comes with a Netscape server. Look again.
Then none of the developers on the team are worth their weight in crap. Out of the box Site Server is just samples. It is schema independent and if you feel that you where locked into the schema you must really need some relational database design help. Now don't call me a M$ supporter but I feel that the Site Server product is a good product if your client tells you to use NT as the web server. You just have to learn that the out of the box crap is all you can do with the server software. Look at Costco's website, or Gap's or even Starbucks. These sites are using Site Server and every single one of them works, and the code behind them is nothing like a sample store shipping with the Site Server Commerce Edition box. In any venture it comes down to the developers skill. Not what product is used. Some are just better and easier to use.
I am not a M$ Salesmen I just use tools that work in the enviroments I am forced to work in.
GO REDHAT!
That should put a dent into M$ e-business plans!
If people WANT to pay for something they can get for free elsewhere....LET THEM. It'll let Bob Young and RH get richer, and in turn they help out the rest of the community. We all benefit.
Sheesh. The end.
Werd.
GO REDHAT!
That should put a dent into M$ e-business plans!
My server guru has been working on a box like this for the past couple months. basically running the same services. However we didn't have a *real* linux box to work on so we ran it on a rehashed P133 with ~70MB RAM. It's running sweetly, but about a week before we're ready to unleash it on one of our real servers RH decideds to package it?????? C'mon guys couldn't ya at least throw us a copy on CD??? or a couple shares of IPO would be nice *wink wink*
oh well enough whining.... at least RH is firing up to help us all out before they get gobbled up by the big ugly dogs.
-- Life: Hate the Game... Love the cereal
I'll bet mySQL would come down on its $200 license fee if it could get a nice cut of this package's sales.
If I were them, I'd cut a deal, because this product is bound to sell. Yes, it's an agglomoration of things you could get for free -- but if you've bought a Linux distribution, you've already bought a similar product.
D
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- Search for Red Hat reveals 102 stories
- Search for Debian reveals 37 stories
- and a search on SuSE revealed 15 stories.
So while I disagree with you that Slashdot is RedHat biassed, you might make a case that they are posting a huge number of stories about them. THis is probably a result of Red Hat being in the news more than those other distros.....and not a result, as you so eloquently put it of Slashdot being "Red Hat's Bitch"....Werd.
Actually, I would bet that it does.
One of the most common real-world consulting assignments is to take existing tools and put them together to make a system work. Whether they are free or not matters little - in fact, you can charge a higher fee if your client doesn't have to pay $ 5,000 for the basic system.
Remember, most software is written as a VAR/consultant for clients, not as packaged stuff.
D
----
WebAnalyzer is nice....but I still like Wusage better.
Werd.
ahh the joy of freedom of speech!
by the way fifth reply to the second reply to the FIRST POST!!!!
Geeze, Mr. Taco must hate himself for creating a place where such enlightened tinkers can present their views to the world.
BTW, (trying to be slightly ontopic)i think the RedHat portion is GPL, but you can't redistribute the third party enhancements.
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
Wake up people, yes this is obviously for low end e-commerce systems. You can't play with the big boys until you've gone through the farm leagues. As for the price? Well let's consider this, install any linux dist. Then download compile and configure all the e-comerce components to work together. Well I know what I get paid per hour, and at $150 it is quick, easy and PRE-CONFIGURED. As for the GUI missing, you don't like it? Then write the program and fix it!!!!
Wow, you think I'm Bill Gates? Nope, I'm proud to say I now do all my work in Linux.
Have you ever even administered a system? Do you know the joy of installing a new program or changing network setings without having a reboot? NOT WITH WINDOWS!
In my humble way, I have known such joys. And you're right, not with windows.
>I need a better catchphrase paraphrase
Yes you do.
Oh beaked and inebriated one, in the spirit of Open Source, I beseech thee, this wert a call for a little tweaking, not an invitation to a brusque reply!
>I don't think RH's little "solution" here will >make any kind of significant dent in a market MS >has yet turned its eye to.
And couple of years ago people were saying, "I don't think the linux os will make any kind of significant dent in the market"
Look, my point is pretty much the same as what others -- no less pro-Linux than me, and often more so -- have been saying here: this is a *low-end* package. That's fine; I don't think MS has set its sights on that market, so it may well do some brisk business. But it's not gonna bring down MS all by itself. This is a long and involved process, and at best this is a teeny tiny part of that process. Certainly not worth apocalyptic rhetoric.
Wow, arthurs_sidekick, you are very insightful...NOT.
Continue to ignore the facts, it will be yours and M$ downfall!
... and so the drunken penguin continues the rampage. But let's not make assumptions, 'cos you know what they do to U ... and, well, not me, just U in this case.
"Oh, I hope he doesn't give us halyatchkies," said Heinrich.
> There is nothing out there that has all the functionality of MS Money 99, that also runs on Linux.
Amen.
I've found a replacement for everything I use under Windows that does what I need under Linux, save for the Money "Small Business" edition.
I'm no accountant and don't much feel like using any of the professional accounting solutions available for Linux (and there are some quite robust ones out there), and none of the GnuCash/MoneyDance/etc. programs do what MS Money does for me. At least not yet -- I have high hopes. I also considered a home-grown spreadsheet-based system, but I'd rather spend my development energy on Mason (http://www.masonhq.com/) projects.
It is a bit irksome, but I'll live with it. I wasn't doing anything fun on the old Windows box anyway.
YMMV.
ObOnTopic: So how is this different from the secure server package RH was selling previously?
The only reason that the Evil Empire would pronounce Unix a viable server product is to 1) try to convince the courts that they are not a monopoly 2) make people stop thinking of Unix as something to be used for individual users.
Does it do credit card transactions with name and address verify?
Inventory and accounting interfaces?
Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
IPO with ETRADE. Want to make money?? $500-1000. Email me at zxrj1@aol.com
There've been many heroines (servers) in the history of Linuxdom. However, there weren't too many heros (Workstations, PCs) in the history of Linuxdom. Leon
150 bucks is still too much considering you can Download everything that makes up that package, and do it yourself for a hell of lot cheaper than 150bucks.. Besides doing it yourself teaches you a hell of a lot more about your system and security then relying on redhats setup. Having used redhat from 3.03-6.0 I can tell you that they leave a hell of a lot of security holes open that you have to close off before you can feel safe using it as a server on the internet...
you can get almost the same thing for $79.00 from Ma cmillan Software
Who do they plan to sell to? How many corporate
:)
types are going to trust their e-commerces to RedHat. They are strictly in the low end market maybe this is good for mom & pop e-commerces sites, but it seems like a bit waste of time and money.
Course I read this article after say that Linux is not a e-commerces solution
That's the only reason I'd buy an E-commerce system in a box. I don't have time to worry about every new script kiddie attack and patch to fix it. I want to pay someone else to worry about all that for me. Or at lease roll up all the fixes for me so even confused MS Bob users can install the fix. I've got work to do and no time to find and compile bug fixes myself. Does the Red Hat package offer this?
then:
"Redhat IS the next Microsoft!"
Lowmag.net
Don't forget: "First Post!"
I can attest to that. I work at an e-commerce company (I run the solaris data storage stuff and some networking/routing stuff, everyone else does the NT stuff), and we use a proprietary software package for NT (which I won't name so that /. won't get sued), and we pay about $10,000 a year in liscensing fees, and it breaks _all_ the time. It mangles the SQL databases it's supposed to be managing, the backup modem we use (in case frame relay goes down) has software that doesn't work, and the support is atrocious.
;)
If redhat's ecommerce solution works, I might be able to put a couple NT admins, and 30 or 40 NT ASP "developers" out of a job.
I'm a unix admin working in a 90% NT shop, and I know why this makes you smile. You're scared to death, because developing for NT is all cut-and-paste. Buy a big-ass book on ASP or C++, cut out the pieces you want, and paste it together to come up with a solution, and you get paid minimum $40,000 a year. My 12 year old niece can do that. You smile because you know that if Microsoft ever goes out of business, you'll have to change careers, because you don't have the basic creative and trouble-shooting skills to do any real development. You smile because you've got a cake job, resting on the poorly put together VB that is Site Server. You smile because you don't deserve your salary.
check out their website, i believe they have a free trial.
Unless you go s/Net/Open/, this is not exactly right. OpenBSD is probably the most secure OS available right now!!!
"Code free or die!"
Dent?! Ha! For a mere 149.99 one might as well
give it away. You all will never learn.
Mr. MS
Microsoft Linux...? Its only a matter of time... Then the rebellion will be crushed.
And your point is? I should look forward to being a geek in a closet to earn a decent living? No thank you. MS has enabled me to make a good bit of money, and not have to devote my life a damn computer. Long live MS.
In my econ class in HS we learned that the reason you see so many ads for cars offering "$1500 cash back," instead of "On sale! $1500 off!" is because most americans associate lower price with lower quality. Ie, if they're slashing prices, it must suck.
So maybe this has something to do with that. Maybe, to be taken seriously, they have to price things way out there. Just a guess. Of course, I'm sure they don't mind the extra money.
rooooar
Personally, I'd prefer to use the tool that does the job the best. If that tool is "open-source", so be it. But if it's not, I'd still rather use that than use something of lesser quality just so that I can know I'km using "open-source" software.
Software may be proprietary, but standards do exist that allow for the movement of your data from one system to another. So long as I never lose access to that, I stand by my point.
read/visit redhat's site. you might learn something instead of whining.
quick, easy site setup. comes with SSL + digital certificate discounts. full packages from hp, ccvs, minivend..etc.. i like.
We all will never learn? HA! Micro$oft is the one who is learning now. Linux is teaching you and the DOJ is teaching you! We will kill your e-business and you will easily fall. Linux is the best and will remain the best. Win2K sux now and will a poor out of date hunk of crap when it is released. Your crowd will learn!
Just watch how we do it, we make it look easy!
Now, now, children. We must not waste energy bickering. The drunken penguin is
just that a drunken fool. Do not hesitate and put he in his place, that is in fact what
MS does each and everyday to Linux.
Microsoft Linux...? Its only a matter of time... Then the rebellion will be crushed.
. In any venture it comes down to the developers skill. Not what product is used. Some are just better and easier to use.
So, crappy product + skilled developer = excellent product + skilled developer?
I don't think so! Sure, sometimes strong developers can produce solid things with poor tools, but give those same developers good tools and the end result is likely to be much better (and you end up with happier developers).
Unfortunately, sometimes strong developers required to use poor products end up spending lots of time spinning their wheels and banging their heads against walls until someone in management allows them to switch tools....
I really like the neologism "enlightened tinker". Maybe that should be the new name for (non-cracker) hackers.
Yeah, it can probably interop, if you're lucky. But it's all but certain you'll run into something it obviously ought to do - but doesn't. And you won't be able to hire anyone to fix it, much less do it yourself. Bug reports and feature requests usually fall on deaf ears unless you have $1e6 to wave around and meet the original authors' monopoly rate.
If security is involved at all, you'll never know that someone unbiased has checked for back doors and other flaws. And closed-source crypto is probably snake oil.
Have you checked the netscapes stock ticker lately? Oh yeah, that's right, it doesn't exist because netscape doesn't. I guess Open Source really paid off for them. Bravo netscape, way to go.
What does "not integrated" mean, other than letting you replace components that don't do what you want without scrapping the rest?
Wow, it was $25k advance on royalties when I asked them. Guess that's why they took their rates off their Web pages. :-)
"Almost." Meddle not in the affairs of RSADSI, for they are evil bastards with nothing but a monopoly who'll make short work of you to defend it.
'deploying' squid is not that hard. the 60k conf file just seems to be a pain in the neck; however, it's not that hard to set it up. i have to agree with you about the mod_perl + ssl. [try mod_perl+php3+ssl :P].
on the side note, i think 'analog' has more detailed output [http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/analog/]
ananke
You charge $100k/year for just setting up servers? Did you have the local college firebombed or something? The price, of course, is mostly for RSA's protection racket.
The GNU Hurd kernel and linux are both branches of the GNU tree, and not necessairily in competition. The Hurd kernel is a long running ambitious project to create a new kind of modular kernel, (as opposed to monolithic a-la-unix -- remember GNU's NOT UNIX). The system services will sit on top of a small robust microkernel that negotiates low-levl i/o, with whatever filesystem and other services you want running in a seperate layer. This will allow you to run multiple hurd compatible OS's at the same time on the same box, and one specific service going down will be unable to adversley affect any of the others. Presumably linux, Free BSD, (MacOS one day?, Amiga? ...) e.t.c will be the first Hurd compatible macrokernals (i just made that word up by the way). In addition, the microkernal will be a great base for customising your own OS for embedded - type systems where you don't need all those services anyway.
The great thing about GPL'ed code, is that the naturall state of affairs is creative synergy, so don't write of GNU Hurd just yet. Sure it's a difficult and ambitious project, but development has been accelerating recently, and the Free Software community, including the linux community will be the richer for the results.
I am not a Hurd developer myself, and I use the standard monolithic linux kernel, but I wish them every success...
Actually, if this is what you want, then I have to recommend debian. If you use the stable distribution, then their are essentially no security bugs. Really. When debian finally releases something, it really works.
And of course they can't close _all_ holes, because some are in buggy packages that no-one knows have holes, but in debian, if such a hole is discovered, it will be fixed _very_ quickly. And when they _are_ fixed, then through the miracle of apt-get it's quite easy to set things up so that whenever new fixes are posted, you come into work the next morning and your box is running with said fixes installed.
I have nothing against redhat, but who do you trust to do the Right Thing: hundreds of obsessed geeks scattered around the world, or several equally geeky but with far more to worry about redhat employees?
is it GPLed. or even open-source?
Red hat doesn't sell software. They sell support FOR the software. This makes suits feel more comfortable than just "download, compile, install." They feel like they're getting something only when they pay for it.
glad to see minivend getting some publicity.
a lot of cools sites such as the boston red sox and duffelbag.com (great place to buy CDs!!) are using it
If the PHBs of this world need a trendy fad to be hyped for Linux before they'll switch, all the better for Red Hat. Let RH hype their products with marketese, and let's not rain on their parade. Most slashdot readers will spend their $150 on caffeine and gadgets (Lego!) and happily make their own e-commerce server for free.
Wah!
Lst's look at what really makes sense in the e-commerce world. Complete interactivity with the corporate data == 95% of the time you need M$ SiteServer 3.0. Best platform for secure reasons == NetBSD & Stonghold. In the real world these solutions work. RedHat is just adding fodder to the E-Commerce fray. No self respecting web store (of good size) will use this technology with products out there from IBM, and M$ that offer management tools for the store and native database connectivity built in that is secure by default.
You can get apache, openssl, squid2 and webalizer with SuSE 6.1 - indeed they're all open-source.
;)
I've been to the linked site and read around a bit - it seems full of nothing but marketroid-drivel., but then again I think e-commerce == hype + forms + hype + ssl + hype + CGI, so what do I know?
What about RedHat's "package" is worth the remaining $100 ?
~Tim
--
~Tim
--
Rushing on down to the circle of the turn
If the Red Sox site is a good example of minivend I can't say I'm impressed.
To try and find a game that has good seats available is a real chore - you have to give all of your vital information, including CC#, before you get to see what seats there are.
And if you don't like them you get to start all over since "using the back button on your browser will cause errors".
As I said, I'm not impressed.
Perhaps a license to use SSL for commercial purposes? I can't tell, since RedHat's 'store' is currently down. That's about the worst advertising they could have gotten.
grumble grumble red hat grumble open source grumble bastards grumble end of civilisation grumble new microsoft grumble making money grumble evil grumble apache grumble grumble.
Of course, do you want to pay RSA on your own? It's illegal to use SSL on your own (at least for another year), and most businesses would rather not have illegal software running their ecommerce website. By that same token, Win NT is too expensive: just download and install!
You should be proud of what you do. You should be creative in your job. You should work hard, learn your entire life, and do what you enjoy.
MS development isn't about any of these things.
Why do we need the Netscape Roaming Prefs server when Apache can do it?
Check out:
http://www.klomp.org/mod_roaming/
It works great, and does the job... for free!
Redhat has once again figured out a way to sell a bunch of free software for even MORE money.
$149 for a bunch of free code, and TRIAL VERSIONS of e-commerce software. What a bargain.
RedHat does at least as good a job as anyone (and a *much* better job than, say, MS) of making bug and security fixes available quickly. Note that RedHat doesn't do much of the fixing, they just make the fixes available.
If worrying about timely responses to security problems is your main concern, then RedHat probably wouldn't disappoint you.
Cause not ALL of it is free...
and must you insult everyone?
as I recall, Hurd's "been around" for years, and it's still never been reliased. linux is here now, and it works.
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
That's sweet.
You should earn money.
OSS doesn't let you do this.
You can have a copy of my car if you like.
So only the 22% of websites that run IIS have complete interactivity with corporate data?
Bogus BS, push your crap software someone else.
A friend of mine has a Site Server horror story, which apparently is common place, to un-install it you have to do some crap like:
un-install Site Server
un-install IIS
un-install option crud pack
re-install service pack X
re-install IIS
re-install service pack X
re-install all other web crap
The funny thing is the above is very similar to many help docs at in the MS knowledgebase.
They guys are hilarious. The crud they push on people.
Not available to the rest of the world, in case I cared. I'll stick with building my own e-commerce server with Apache, mod_ssl and jserv, thanks.
So that is what the esteemed Mr. Torvalds had in mind when he thought up the penguin as a logo. A few beers in 'im and he's all, like "I'm indestructible!" and full of pith and vinegar.
Don't count your uptime until it's happened ... damn I need a better catchphrase paraphrase. But I don't think RH's little "solution" here will make any kind of significant dent in a market MS has yet turned its eye to.
However, just wait til next year!
"Oh, I hope he doesn't give us halyatchkies," said Heinrich.
authurs_sidekick says:
>and full of pith and vinegar.
Where do you come up with this stuff?
>Don't count your uptime until it's happened
I will put linux uptime againt your M$ uptime anyday! Have you ever even administered a system? Do you know the joy of installing a new program or changing network setings without having a reboot? NOT WITH WINDOWS!
>I need a better catchphrase paraphrase
Yes you do.
>I don't think RH's little "solution" here will >make any kind of significant dent in a market MS >has yet turned its eye to.
And couple of years ago people were saying, "I don't think the linux os will make any kind of significant dent in the market"
Wow, arthurs_sidekick, you are very insightful...NOT.
Continue to ignore the facts, it will be yours and M$ downfall!
- TDP
I'll have to try the ftp issue and see what's actually blowing up - but it's on this one machine that conincidentally is running GNOME/E. The destination host, also RH6.0 is fine...
I tried "ftp" and "ncftp" figuring maybe an FTP client issue - no difference. Must be something...
demo
signal, noise, to me it's all the same.
With a $150 price tag, who do you think they are targetting?
They are targetting the "home user with ADSL that wants to sell a few things online". Anyone a little bigger would use some web-hosting/co-location setup. Anyone bigger than that would spend the $$$ to plan for the future.
Hmmm... I guess they could also be targetting the "new developer wants to learn about E-commerce" people too.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
Yeah, that's terrible. Having to pay for something that someone else wrote... That sucks! Shit, EVERYTHING should be free. Hey, could I have your car? I need a new one.
Is WebAnalyzer any good? Can someone give me a link where I can read more about it? Thanks!
Well quite obviously, the person you are referring to isn't a professional. They are probably some 12 year old kid who has never used Redhat in his life, probably not even Linux. He probably thinks Redhat IS Linux, and therefore he hates Redhat...
It sure is a hell of a lot cheaper then the alternatives, which run on NT. Cost for Microsofts solution start at about $4.5k and move up from that, plus factor another 1.2k for NT server (or is that included, don't really know, either way...). And of course, the obligatory $30k quad processor, multi-nic server ;-) Hey if if RedHat can make a buck, contribute to open source, and popularize Linux, I ain't complaining.
Spyky
How so? You can still sell your product. Look at how Netscape dealt with Mozilla (except for the fact that they stopped selling it because of microsoft)
When a Redhat story is posted.... Moderators can't keep up with the flames :) Seriously, I think redhat is pretty cool still, and very useful.. I'll probably switch distros again soon because things don't work quite as smooth as they do elsewhere as of late.. I think only when they switch from GNU tools or the linux kernel to some weird proprietary replacement will I become concerned about redhat causing trouble.. Linux distros that are based on GPLed libraries can always be compatible... Granted, some library choices in redhat may differ from other distros, but you can always have a directory for different versions of libraries to run different distro binaries :)
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Oh, shutup. Ever notice how Slashdot centers many of its stories around Linux? It is News for Nerds. Ever notice that Red Hat has many, many Linux packages for various purposes (although one could argue there a tad over priced). Slashdot recently had a story about a new release of SuSe that hasn't even been released yet. Also, it featured a prevelant story on the release of a new XFree86, although no binaries are to be released until the next version. Red Hat makes less Linux packages, they get less time here. SuSe makes more, they get more time here.
adam
How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?
Ok, we all know we're talking about a low-end E-commerce site here, so here's what's missing from the package:
-Easy to use database
-Graphical database tools
-Simple, graphical server/e-store configuration tools
-Web authoring tools
They can't sell a package that centers on MySQL, because that would incur their weird licensing costs (Although they can include it as an option), but maybe a PostgreSQL/MySQL option would be allright. KMySQL is a great, free database frontend that has plugins to work with other DBs (no Postgres yet, though) and could be great if RH would invest in it a little.
Templates are easy and/or freely available.
Hmm... what does that leave undone? Easy tools for building e-commerce apps. Something easier than, say, Zope or another real app server. People just want a "Yahoo Store" or the like.
--JZ
MiniVend is an excellent piece of software. This is a big market for Linux and related open-source packages. It makes perfect sense for RedHat to bundle and package this. It makes my job easier, too, because when people ask me what it runs on, I can say "RedHat E-Commerce Server" instead of getting down in the mire of having to explain and defend the open-source mentality. People want to pay for this stuff. This is a good thing.
Let's look at what really makes sense in the e-commerce world. Complete interactivity with the corporate data == 95% of the time you need M$ SiteServer 3.0.
Luckily, this is not true. After running Siteserver on a fast-growing e-commerce site for a year, we finally broke down and ripped it out and put a custom solution in its place. Siteserver compatibility generally means only that the product uses the default db table names that Siteserver creates. This can be configured or the tables can be emulated. However, Siteserver itself is little more than a bunch of poorly written Visual Basic Script scripts and some extremely inefficient objects (out-of-the-box, anyway) for storing and manipulating the shopping cart data, bundled with some site analysis tools that we didn't even use. The overhead and inefficiency of the product outweighed any benefits we got, so much that even management suggested we get rid of it.
My advice is, though, don't even start using it, because it _is_ very easy to get stuck with it when you start buying 3rd party software that runs with it, etc. The lock-in effect is harsh. But, as I was saying, luckily nearly 100% of the big-name e-commerce players offer a (usually better and more mature) UNIX version of their software in addition to a Siteserver version. This includes the credit card processors (Cybercash, Clear Commerce), etc. Note that Siteserver does not come with credit card processing software.
This has been my experience. There is no way that RedHat's package could be worse.
bob