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FBI Stops Satellite Phones
redbird writes "According to this article, the FBI is temporarily (although they have a different meaning for that word) blocking satellite phones that would allow world wide wireless service because such communications are difficult to tap."
Communism is a completely different thing. Communism is ONLY an economic system. It is not a philosophy of massive oppression and/or censorship on the people.
YEah, but what in the world can you do to stop it?
One word: revolution.
I don't see why a bunch of baby burners should be allowed to exist in the first place.
1: wiretapping is worthless against criminals. Criminals learned long ago to always speak in code over phone lines. Wiretapping only exists today for the monitoring of political groups that might pose a threat to the rampant corruption in American government, especially in agencies like the FBI that are used against the American people for political reasons.
2: hmmm.... looks like nations are becoming obsolete. About fucking time. A few more decades and they can just drop the facades and the world will be able to go corporate!
I hope my original post didn't come across as too harsh. I wasn't trying to offend. Just trying to offer a different viewpoint.
:-)
I find it interesting that everyone automatically assumes that people who are "paranoid" live in a constant state of fear.
Do sysadmins live in a constant state of fear, or are they merely prudent? It seems to me that it is entirely possible to be prudent and cautious without living every waking moment in a state of fear.
Currently, the average American is more than likely to be the victim of at least one violent crime in their life. Taking that information into account when you act is not letting your life be ruled by fear, any more than installing a firewall at work means letting your life be ruled by fear. It is merely prudent.
I was trying to point out that you were not in any actual way truly punished. A woman got scared. Big deal, it happens, especially in today's society. The police checked up on you. Big deal, that's their job. You felt like an idiot and criminal. But those are just your feelings.
I believe that you could have just as easily taken the position of understanding the woman's position and the cops' position and not felt like an idiot or criminal. Rather than feeling offended you can have felt understanding and sympathy. But that is just my opinion, not gospel
I agree that it is a little sad that we can no longer trust complete strangers. I also doubt that the sense of threat was her first impression. Probably at first she thought it strange that the car behind her was flashing its lights. Then when it persisted and escalated she began to get worried. Then when it pulled up beside her she got a little scared. And then there was some note that he held up to the window but she couldn't make out what it said and she got kinda scared at that point. Finally, when the car drove away she breathed a sigh of relief and decided to call the police. She decided that if she read a story in the newspaper about some poor girl getting raped and murdered by someone driving the same car as you, she wouldn't be able to live with herself not having called the police. She figured she was probably overreacting and being foolish, but she decided she would let the professionals figure out what the truth was rather than making that decision on her on.
I don't know if that's what happened, but the point is neither do you. You are jumping the gun and making assumptions just like you are saying she did. Just like you claim she didn't try to understand your point of view, it seems to me that you aren't trying to understand her point of view. You are automatically assume the worst of her at the same time that you decry her assuming the worst of you.
[For the record, there are many cases of female motorists who are kidnapped and raped while there is traffic around, so I don't think that substantially diminishes the validity of her fear.]
Big Brother...
Screw Earth. The sooner all of us Smart People get off this dirtball and go to Mars/L5/Luna/Wherever, we'll be in MUCH better shape. If the normals want to spiral down the toilet bowl of restrictive governments and Racial Tensions (tm), let 'em. Those of us with courage, vision, initiative, imagination, and know-how can just move elsewhere. Maybe I'm selfish, but I'm not smart enough to solve all the problems of this planet. I AM smart enough, however, to route around them.
It's like that scary dude in Alien:Resurrection said: "Earth...what a shithole..."
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
However much you do or do not trust the FBI, this is still bad news. If satellite phone companies are willing to give wiretap capabilities to a "legitimate" government in one case, why not other cases? And there are clearly governments out there that have even less regard for life than the FBI has for privacy.
In fact, Iridium originally excited me because it is essentially a democratic technology. It can give information the power to cross borders unsupervised by authorities. Even at 2400 baud, it could send a whole lot of newspaper articles into the hinterlands of China or out of the jungles of Chiapas. If the corporation controlling it is going to start collaborating with governments, I guess that potential will be squashed.
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Thats from Mao, only I think it was actually "freedom comes from the barrel of a gun", which is something I suspect an Objectivist might have some trouble with if the gun belonged to the state, but would agree with wholeheartedly if it was his own.
Consider the McCarthy witch hunts. If the technology had been in place to precisely know who 'the real Communists' were, innocent non-Communists would not have been persecuted. The information would have been better, hence far fewer innocent lives would have been ruined.
One must remember that the Government is sold a bill of good by industry; it is the Janus of mankind.
In the late50s-60-70-early80s nuclear weapons were that bill of goods.
The cool thing about the direction that the US is currently headed is that it's a self-fulfilling prophesy.
The government will gain the kind of latitude that will invite abuse that will bring about revolution and it's partner in crime, terriroism. The military industrial complex will be more that glad to throw fuel on the fire (for both the terriorist and for the "Defenders of that which is Good and Right"(tm))
If you play your cards right, there's a lot of money to be made and the first significant chance for political change to be had in the last 200 years of the USA's existance.
So, unlike all you panzies out there who can't handle real change and chaos, perfering spoon fed, lawyer defended rights instead of fighting for your right to paaarrrrtttyyyy for real, I SAY BRING IT ON!!!
If the government is wise, it will begin to pit population segments against eachother in an effort to delay the inevitable... look for it to happen on the 6'oclock news near you.
Heh... in the UK you have laws which require
you to pass over all your encryption keys if
asked by the government with a jail term if
you fail to... that doesn't sound much better.
Bolie IV
A former IRS clerk in Philadelphia allegedly used a confidential government computer data bank to find and try to kill a restaurant manager who had accused him of robbing her.
Dameia "Omar" Smith, 27, of Magnolia Street near Walnut Lane, Germantown, was indicted yesterday by a federal grand jury on robbery, attempted murder, unauthorized computer access and related charges.
If convicted, Smith could be facing about 40 years in prison without chance of parole, said Assistant U.S. Attorney John J. Pease.
Earlier this month, Smith was sentenced to 111/2 to 23 months in prison by a Bucks County judge for an unrelated attempted bank robbery in January in Northampton Township.
In the new federal case, Smith allegedly pulled a pistol and robbed about $1,887 from a manager of a Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant on Sept. 6, 1998. At the time, Smith worked nights as a clerk in the IRS' collection division of the Philadelphia Service Center in Northeast Philadelphia.
The robbery happened in daylight outside a bank on City Avenue, where the restaurant manager had gone to deposit the restaurant's earnings from the prior night.
Later, Smith was arrested for the stickup and learned the restaurant manager would testify against him.
On Oct. 7, 1998, Smith allegedly tapped into an IRS computer data base, the Integrated Data Retrieval System, which contains "sensitive information about taxpayers."
He used the IRS computer, without authorization, to get the witness' home address, the grand jury said.
Then he used the information "to threaten and intimidate her to prevent her from cooperating with law enforcement officials," the prosecutor said.
After she testified against him at a hearing in December, Smith tried to persuade an associate to kill her by handing him a gun outside her house on Jan. 25, 1999, the grand jury said.
The associate, now cooperating with federal authorities, refused to do Smith's bidding.
In February, Smith was arrested in Baltimore on unrelated charges and was sentenced to a short prison term for possession of a stolen handgun. He's been in jail since then.
The IRS canned Smith in April, the prosecutor said.
Note: The article does not say why he still had access to IRS computer after being busted on two violent felonies! Still feel safe if you have nothing to hide?
I wrote parts of this stuff
You checked with your own government here? Asked if they aren't actively blocking the Iridium frequencies? After all, the Chinese government is _almost_ as good at depriving you of your rights as the American...
I never realized exactly what was going on until I read your post. I think that these fears are encouraged because only the fearful will give up their rights for the promise of security. Divide and conquer as the saying goes. Divide the country, make citizens fearful of each other, and you'll be able to run right over them. It's really a very old trick and I'm somewhat embarrassed that I didn't see it before now.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Nonsense. Proof of innocence doesn't prevent corrupt politicians from targeting their enemies -- just ask Billy Dale. "Better information" just makes it possible for corrupt politicians to improve their aim.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
It was a long, drawn out, complicated mess, and not well handled by the government authorities.
What David Koresh and his followers didn't do that would almost certainly have saved their lives was come out with their hands up when asked to do so by clearly identifiable authorities. That would have required an amount of common sense greatly absent, however.
Hindsight is always 20/20 of course.
It could turn out that we are of the same mind, if we work out the causal chains.
But as people are distrustful of the gov, their distrust is unfocusable. It becomes a heat-seeker, and targets the strange, the unknown and the different. A black family in a white neighborhood, or the smiling stranger in a faceless crowd.
I think that the distrust of the government is the *consequence*, not the cause. There is a biological bias to be distrustful of the strange and the different. If you perceive the environment around you as safe (huge media role!), then you become more tolerant of the different ones, and vice versa.
It seems the causal chain would go like this:
There is a certain level of actual crime ->
Media tends to focus on crimes, so the *perceived* threat level becomes very high ->
People become afraid and distrustful, especially of strangers (note that depending on the circumstances that might be the correct and rational thing to do) ->
People tell politicians that they want 'safety' ->
Politicians, quite happy, increase the powers of the government "to protect the people" and, usually not explicitly, to prohibit 'strangeness' and 'freakiness'.
Yes, this is one way the governments get to be more powerful. My point was however, that govenments innately hunger for power without any prodding from the populace. So we should distrust governments and limit their power just because they are governments, and not because the population is afraid and actually encourages the governments to take away freedoms.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
just like vietnam. in vietnam everythings illegal so the govt can nab any trouble makers it wants whenever it wants. Again it makes me kinda spooked if they decide to try to regain control again by going marshall law through some strategically planned Y2K disasters. Typically Im not a paranoid person but all these things the govt is doing openly is starting to get at me.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
They can, although it isn't as easy for them as something like DES which I suspect they've found a flaw in. They've got a lot of very bright people working for them to undermine your constitutional rights in the name of national security. I wouldn't put my money on any encryption method being beyond their ability to crack. It would be funny though to give them encrypted white noise and see what kinds of funky patterns they do find in it.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
However a fourth satellite is needed to solve for the timing error in the receiver. (The receivers for GPS signals do not have a highly accurate clocks so they can not accurately calculate the time of flight of the GPS signal without solving for the timing error.)
on one more note, the fact that people living in cities and suburbs arent very neighborly is power in the gov'ts eyes. We cant easily gang up on the govt if we're so involved in work that we cant defend ourselves. I think its a good time to implement grassroots-style stuffs like a 2600 meeting in every city or whatnot. My dad owns guns (legally), which puts my house as a red flag in the gov't's eyes. To the gov't the cities are easy to take, the real work is going to be in the small towns scattered across america if they ever did pull that marshall law crap.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
These devices can be used to build a phone that is difficult to tap. Food will now be distributed in ziplock bags only.
Let's get some things straight here about Iridium and similar sattelite phones.
- The don't encrypt their transmissions. This was intentional because of the international nature of the phones. Many governments around the globe insisted on this as a condition of having Iridium downlink centers in their country. This enables any intelligence agency on this planet to hear everything you say on these phones with or without a warrant.
- The phones can act a location device already. If the phones can see three sattelites they can pinpoint your location anywhere on the planet including current altitude. Apparently this feature already exists in Iridium from rumors I've heard.
Don't feel sorry for any of these agencies, they have it all arranged to ensure they can keep snooping on anyone using these phones that they want. There are devices that can be used with the phones to encrypt all your transmissions, but from what I understand they are restricted because they don't want people doing this. Basically if you use a sattelite phone you are carrying a fully-eavesdroppable tracking device for the governments of the world. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the NSA had a vested interest in keeping Iridium going for this very reason. They would probably be giving the phones away to people if they could afford to do it.
We have to assume that every legal form of communication that the FBI has not complaints on, is now being taped easily?
I don't know how to battle the massive propoganda that is being used to demonize the ownership of firearms, but your post is a good start.
15 million directly spent to protect our governments ability to tap phones.
It seems like a lot of effort being spent on a task that in the long run is going to fail.
In the long run I don't think that the government can keep everything under wraps, it is as doomed to failure as the efforts in past centuries to keep the reading of the bible the exclusive domain of clergy.
The only argument I have ever read by a non gov official for this sort of thing is in one of the Tom Clancy novels, were he has the terrorists using encryption to prevent their detection. However these same terrorists have the resources of an oil producing nation to back them up, So would pgp being exported really have been needed for them to be protected or would they have just been able to buy what they needed? After all in the book they are able to produce biological weapons to attack the US with, so how hard would it have been for them to operate without coming to the notice of the CIA without public domain strong encyption?
So give me a break. Read my mail if you want to, but have fun I even have trouble keeping up with it.
Check out the Lance Armstrong Foundation
kayaking
I'm French and I would like to point out two things:
:)
- With the Echelon system, the US gov. has the means to control/tap every bit of data that get aired. I don't think that sat phones would be a great challenge.
- I bet that a similar tradition of tapping already exists for the traditionnal wireless phones. In fact, in France, it has allowed to solve the murder of a high ranking official.
Now, would the french police go to such extend to solve my own murder?
As for the privacy, I don't think we ever had one...
Snake (I've forgotten the password again - sigh, I should ask the NSA to retrieve it for me
hear, hear brother!
Just because the news media portrays us all as twisted psychos on the edge of reality, doesn't mean we all are. Sure, maybe when I play Quake, but after that I'm just some dude. Our sensationalist news organizations portray a very different and scary world than the one outside, and they do it for ratings, no other reason. While this may help their bottom line, it warps the perspective of viewers (esp. over a long time)
The FBI needs to chill the f*ck out and quit relying on wiretaps to get info. I can't even imagine some of the stuff that has been done in my name for my National Security.
+&x
Well here is a shameless plug for the libertarian
Party. See what thier view is on the governments police tactics.
http://www.lp.org
Once more, I hear paranoia at /. The Gvmnt right to a digital feed of phone info is emminent domain. Believe it or not, they don't have time to track ordinary law abiding citizens, just the criminals. Would you have a terrorist/drug trafficker in the US able to coordinate activities without any way for law enforcement to track his communications?
/. have paranoid reply's, unfortunately our Founding Fathers had no idea of nukes, germ warfare, car bombs, etc. I have no doubt if they had, they would have supported the ability to infringe on those folks rights (who would commit such crimes) for the greater good of the nation.
Think about it, you're opening Pandora's box; and folks like don't care who gets hurt. True you take the risk that the law may be abused at some time, but then if you don't have such a law.. you can be certain that the loophole will be exploited by terrorists or criminals.
Too many posts at
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you have nothing to hide, you really have nothing to fear. But I personally support the right for the Law to fight back. You fight the Law...the Law will win.
Well, this will come close to nailing the coffin lid shut on Iridium. That company has had virtually nothing good happen to them, and are on the verge of filing for chapter 6 protection.
Surelly a sat phone company could operate without any offices in the States, & therfore wouldnt need to follow US laws. Americans could then just go to Canada or Mexico to buy their sat phones, & the FBI wouldnt be able to dp a thing about it. They might lose a few potential sales but it would make things heaps simpler.
"All political power grows from the barrel of a gun," I believe, was Mao's exact quote.
If we all showed up at big friendly 2600 meetings, whom would be left to "human engineer"? (translation- lie to, deceive, and steal from).
You sure got that one right. It the same reason why you have so much effort going into gun control. An armed populace is a free populace.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
How about a shameless plug for the IWW.
We're working for toppling the power of both the government and the corporate bosses, be it Clinton, Bill Gates, or Castro. We don't get into political elections, because that's a trap -- the moment a Libertarian Party politicians gets in power is the moment they abandon their principles.
Instead we are for the 95+% that write code, build bridges, flip burgers, and make everything else go, getting together and telling the politicians and the bosses to step aside. We are already keeping everything running -- it's time we have a say in how it's run, and that means self-management, at work and in our community. Would-be new bosses need not apply.
Right on. The way I see it, those of us opposed to the direction this country is moving have three options:
1. revolution (take over by force)
2. rebellion (use strong encryption as laws close tighter, hoping we're not among the ones to be caught)
3. affect policy within the system (vote for people with ideologies consistent with the constitution, which in my opinion can only be found in the libertarian party)
Are any of them realistic? Maybe it's not totally cynical to say 'no,' but what has a chance? I don't plan on picking up a gun and storming the white house. #2 may last for a while, but not long without some kind of resistance. #3 is not so unrealistic when people realize 'throwing your vote away' is just a marketing slogan.
Can the FBI tap GSM/TDMA wireless phones? You'd think it'd be the same type of deal.
The atomic number of Iridium is 77. The system was redesigned to 66 active satellites (Dysprosium) even though they have more than 80 satellites in orbit now, including failures and spares.
Iridium doesn't exploit diversity and only one satellite is utilized at a time - but position can be estimated from handoff time statistics and tracked more closely by analyzing doppler on the signal. It's accurate enough to deny service where legally required.
Oh, go do some reading.
Heck, you can't even spell satellite. Lots of luck getting that associate degree.
Man, are they getting crazier or am I getting more paranoid? I thought Hoover was dead! Who is going to stop these people, they obviously have far too much power.
The old "UNIX" license plates were intended as humor. People wanted a Unix license. So somebody produced one. Get rid of the GPL and we can have such fun again.
Funny, last night Art Bell was talking to some woman in South America over an Iridium phone.. it sounded like she was in the studio with him. I was impressed.
Acording to this, the FBI is scared that they can't tap the phones easily, and when they can they can't trace it to a location. I happen to like that...
What business does the FBI have having my location and phone call audio handed to them? If it's really that important for them to monitor a few "national security" cases, they can expend the energy themselves. However, making the phone companies set up their systems to trace everyone smacks of random monitoring and other Orwelian measures...
I don't like our governments stand on privacy these days... Not at all.. It's only getting worse too...
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
It's better in Israel.
What you're talking about is exactly the reason
that I left the US and came to live in Israel.
Here, everyone who's sane and not a convicted
criminal goes into the army at age 18. They
do combat training, learn to safely and effectively use various weapons. Because of this
we have a society where everyone learns social
responsibility and to take care of each other and
when crimes occurs on the street, you'll see every able bodied person within 50 feet step up to try and prevent the crime. What you need in
the US isn't more laws, regulations and more power in the hands of law enforcment - what you
need is to fundamentally change your contries culture from promoting irrisponsible, self-centered, lazy, Eyes Wide Shut type values to a culture of self-responsibility, community oriented, activist, informed culture. Make the
draft madatory. Everyone goes in at 18 for 6
months. They learn how to fight and use a gun.
They learn to watch out for their buddies asses.
When they get out give every one of them who wants it and doesn't have a criminal record and isn't insane a licence to carry a M-16 EVERYWHERE. You'll see a much better society with rediculously low crime rates result from this. Case in point: Israel has a population of about 6 million and is the most densly populated country in the world. Tulsa, Oklahoma (where I
came from) has a population of roughly half a million and is pretty low on the pop. density scale. There are roughly twice as many murders per year in Tulsa as there are in all of Israel! And that's including terrorist attacks here in Israel in the murder rate!
SailorBob sailorb@netvision.net.il.nospam
Too bad Iridium seems to be in such bad shape... after all their initial hype, they're losing so much money that they're apparently near closing their doors. Motorola is near pulling funding for them as well.
Check out this article on wired for more.
-s
---- noi non potemo aver perfetta vita senza amici -- Dante
Replace all occurrances of the word "criminal" with "citizen" and "terrorist" with "law abiding American" and you will see what the US government is really concerned with--tracking ordinary people to sell their information to the corporations who are really holding the strings.
In this so called democracy of ours, we, the minority, have to bend to the will of the majority. That works ok in many cases, but shouldn't there be a limit on what the majority can impose on the minority? Taking someone's privacy away crosses that line I would think.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
We have an Iridium phone, they say a global connection is possible, but we could not get it to work in China or Hong Kong without being 1 mile from any building or tree. They must have 10 sats above the US and 1 above the whole cont. of Asia. It works fine in the states. But who needs it in the states right? This tech has a while to go before I use it again.
I can see your are speaking in jest, however I know several people who's thinking isn't too far off from what you've written. Your scarcasm would be totally lost on them, I think.
Remember Swift's "A Modest Proposal" was taken seriously by some members of Brittish governmnet.
Isn't irridium pretty much shutting themselves down? They are 4+billion in debt and can't hold on to subscribers. Their service costs and arm and a leg, it's worth it to the small segment that needs it but that's really small.
This is my signature. There are many signatures like it but this one is mine..
S/he didn't say anything remotely attributable to Rand; the quote is from Mao Tse-Tung. Your reaction says far more about you than you know.
Doesn't take much editing to produce:
The FBI and other U.S. law enforcement agencies are worried that new space-based telephone systems, which theoretically allow a citizen to use a wireless phone from virtually anywhere on earth, will undermine their ability to control people and trace thought criminals through cellphones.
Some may argue I am just paranoid. But I offer this: being paranoid is the way we protect our rights. The problem these days is we have been tricked into no longer caring. We are so wrapped up in petty material addictions, we can't even focus on the real issues. And when no one cares anymore, we will lose all of our rights.
my $cents = $penny x 2;
This sig is false.
Blah, think I might have posted a blank message by mistake. Anyway:
There are sufficient reasons to feel somewhat paranoid about this. "Why would governments collect this information and sell it to corporations, why not just raise taxes?" Because increased taxation looks bad, because lowering taxes has been a traditional campaign promise, and because it's harder to track monies coming from the sale of personal data than it is to track monies from taxation.
But why else would the government want to collect this sort of information? A barrel of political reasons stick out. The slippery slope from "tracking criminals" to "tracking undesirables" has existed since the advent of computer technology. Another possibility is the same theory that drives insurance rates -- if the Jews, or the people making $25,000 to $45,000 a year, or the fathers of 2.5 or more kids are more likely to commit crimes, statistically, then monitoring those groups more closely would lead to prevention. Right?
While it's easy to say "They are out to get us", I hope people will settle for "This makes it easier for them to get us" -- prepare for the worst, rather than expect it.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
I thought that quote was from Chairman Mao....doesn't matter.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
People like you don't belong in free country.
Amen... you hit it on the head. In the current frenzy for politicians to seem like they are "doing something" freedom is going right out the window. Amazing how little sense of history (or outrage) the body politic currently possesses.
I've been considering just emailing the FBI, CIA and NSA whenever I do something. Just so that their info is up to date. Maybe send some general outlies of my phone calls every now and then. For example "today a telemarketer called, I told him I didn't want any" or "well, I'm off to the bathroom. more email when I get back"
Only problem is that I haven't figured out exactly whom to send it to. DDI maybe? Now if everyone did this, imagine how much money we could save in taxes! Could probably also flood their systems if enough people did it.
Furthermore, Marxism has been tested with warying degrees of success several places, including Russia, the Paris commune, and China during the civil war. However, in all three cases, reactionary forces used military power to stop it. In the case of Paris, it was the Preussian and French armies (that even though they were at war managed to cooperate to let the French army crush the uprising), in the case of Russia, it was the Bolchevik party itself that got rid of the system when they found that the people favored a more reformist and slow transition towards socialism than they wanted. In China, the system was abandoned soon after the Red army beat Kuomintang and got control of all of China (except for Taiwan of course).
However, in none of these cases where the conditions that Marx himself set forth (for instance in The German Ideology, and also of course in the Manifesto of the Communist Party) for a foundation for a successful transition to socialism and later communism present.
For instance, in the German Ideology, Marx makes it VERY clear that it is a basic requirement that any country, region, or area where one tries to introduce a socialist system would have to be developed enough to satisfy the needs of all citizens if it should have a chance to survive, basically since need would give a strong incentive for everyone to try to better their situation by oppressing.
Also, in the Communist Manifesto, he makes it clear that it would also be a requirement that a revolution are carried out by the proletariat, and that the proletariat would have to be a majority of the people. The Soviet Union is the classic example of the result of ignoring that: Already when he was 18 or 19, Lenin was actively arguing that Marx was wrong, and that socialism was possible in an agrarian society. Why? Because Russia was largely agrarian, and Lenin knew that if there was going to be a socialist revolution soon, there would be no proletarian majority.
This was also the reason why the Bolcheviks were bullish enough to dare to introduce the soviet system, with it's extremely open democracy after the model of the Paris commune, including the option of voters to gather and immediately recall their delegates if dissatisfied.
The Bolcheviks soon however, found out how wrong they had been in believing that an agrarian society would be mature enough for a socialist revolution: They had the support of only between 10% and 20% of the people - mainly the proletarian population in the cities. The poor peasants, who initially supported the revolution was a lot more concerned about land rights than socialism.
The result was that the Bolcheviks, like most revolutionaries before them - whether fighting for communism or for capitalism - and insisted they were right anyway, and started persecuting the opposition, until there were no more opposition outside the party, and Stalin got control and started persecuting the opposition in the party, including most of the allies that had supported Lenin until he died (some historians even claim that Stalin arranged for Lenin to be poisoned, but the "proofs" for that are dubious at best, but it makes for an interesting conspiracy theory :-)
Actually, of the people that sat in the politbureau with Lenin when he died, the only one to survive until the Moscow processes in '36 were over, were Trotskij, which as you may know died in Mexico in '40 - killed by one of Stalins agenst with an icepick...
As for violent revolution. That's the general case, yes. Note that Marx several times made a point that he was talking about general cases, of which there would be an endless series of partial deviations - no exact "predicitions". In speeches a few years before he died, he opened up for the possibility of non-violent revolutions too, encourages by transitions in some countries.
That thread was taken up by Lenin, who in particularly noted the peaceful transitions from feudalism to capitalism in Norway and Sweden as examples that there are always exceptions to any rule, including the rule that a ruling class normally will use military power to fight any attempt at a social revolution (as opposed to a political one, which is basically just a coup d'etat that someone tries to sound nicer).
But I'm rambling.. It's been too long since I was involved with politics :-)
The whole point of "black-ops" like wire-tapping to fish out "criminals" is that you don't hear about it.
if countries like Russia had not armed the Serbs in the first place, the war could not have
happened
Excuse me, but (almost) any sovereign country is set to have the Army, and if you want to outlaw guns all around the world, then I feel sorry about you. Given that the US armed guys in Afganistan and the other half of the world (see the US's share in the world weapons trade, it's many times higher than Russia's), your argument is pointless.
Unfortunately corporations controlling things is what you get in a capitalist democracy. Especially a large one. It's caused by the need for vast amounts of money to get the name recognition necessary to win an election. So you go to the "people" with vast amounts of money, corporations. Thus, you are beholden to the folks that _really_ got you elected, not the people that voted to get you elected. Anyone follow that? It's why I'm chanting "Jesse in 2004", if for no other reason than to shake up a stagnant system.
Reform is needed, communication is needed, education is needed, and VOTE GADDAMMIT! If people here spent half as much time researching candidates and picking the ones they want as they did bitching about the ones they have...they would save half their wasted time.
The problem is the one of the fat and happy man. Being that because he is fat and happy he doesn't give a shit about what else happens, especially to "other" people, as long as he stays fat and happy....right up until the time his heart bursts.
+&x
Prohibiting private property has nothing to do with communism (I suggest you READ the Communist Manifesto - it's available on the web). Prohibiting private ownerships of the means of production has. Allthough the lines are getting blurred. However, the spirit of this, is that any resource that is an enabler for the accumulation of capital, and that is a limited resource, such as a huge manufacturing plant, should be public property.
Also, Marx specifically noted that the state has no role in a communist society, and that is the main reason for socialism: Socialism is defined by Marx as a transition state between capitalism, in which people are divided in economic classes, and communism which is classless. Socialism is the period in which the working classes seize power, and gradually appropriate the means of productions, and with it eliminiate the classes.
Marx also made it very clear that the only purpose of the state under capitalism is to oppress the working classes. Actually, to the extent that Marx were more opposed to the government than capitalist: Most capitalists are trapped in the same system, allthough in a better position. According to Marx it is perfectly understandable, justifiable, and inevitable that most capitalists act as they do, because the alternative is to lower themselves to a position in the working classes, where they would be oppressed themselves.
So according to Marx, both capitalists (in the economic, not political sense) and workers are both trapped by the system, which is kept in place by an oppressive government.
However, since the states only purpose is to enable the ruling class (the capitalists) to excert power over the opressed class (the proletariat), it has no use, and must be removed during the tranistion to communism, and finally die under communism, because once the ruling class consists of the underprivlegded majority, it is the self interest of the ruling class to assimilate the oppressed class (which after a socialist revolution would be the capitalists), by taking the ownership of the means of production away from them.
Once there is no opressed class, the state has outlived it's usefullness.
Thus the name "communism", from the latin word "commune"...
>Check out the other reply, I mean; can't people express themeselves without juvenile vulgarity? The again he's probably a pubescent 21 year old who thinks every f*ur letter word is a great way to make a point.
Sometimes a good expletive is exactly what fits, to borrow a bit from Buddy Hacket, if you were working in your garage and dropped an anvil on your foot, what would you scream "Speing is here!"? No, what would fit is something along the lines of "F*CK, my foot! I think I F*CKING broke it! OWWW, F*CK!"
I'm sick of pointy heads pretending that they're too evolved to use profanity.
>My reply...easy; I like being safe; and while it's shame that happened to you, ask yourself if she was your sister or wife; if that wouldn't make you feel better.
If it was my sister or wife (I'm not married yet, 45 days and counting) I'd be happy that someone was nice enough to try to keep her from breaking down in the in middle of nowhere where some REAL sick could rape/murder her.
>I have friends in Law Enforcement, and the trick is.. they are all fine people, who think of the greater good. Not Hitler types who want to infringe rights at every turn.
I too have friends and relatives in law enforcement. MOST of them are great people, but some cops (the minority, but still far too many) get into the field because they have a power fetish and are too into the "I'm a cop" thing.
There are two types of people who become LEOs, one is the honest caring person who wants to help society, the other is an asshole who wants to abuse power and push people around.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Neither Lenin, nor Stalin, nor any other Russian, Chines, or Eastern European leader claimed to run communist states, because a communist state is an oxymoron
... a lot of early Soviet history skipped ...
That is entirely correct. However, the common usage in the West was to call countries like the Soviet Union "communist" and countries like Sweden "socialist". The Marxist terminology, as you said, would be to call the first one "socialist", and the second one "capitalist".
Furthermore, Marxism has been tested with warying degrees of success several places
I claim that the "varying degrees of success" was not varying at all -- everywhere the "test" turned out to be a complete failure.
However, in none of these cases where the conditions that Marx himself set forth (for instance in The German Ideology, and also of course in the Manifesto of the Communist Party) for a foundation for a successful transition to socialism and later communism present.
That is also entirely correct, although the conditions that Marx set forth did not occur anywhere. I would argue that this point to (one of many) weaknesses of Marx's ideology, rather than serve as an explanation why the USSR could not be called a marxist state.
You are applying the classical western-marxist analysis to the Russian revolution. I myself tend to think that among the Russian revolutionaries some were idealistic "good guys", some were bloodthirsty sadists on a power high, and some were pragmatic "whatever it takes for me to keep my job/position/comforable existence". The ranks of the idealists thinned in the late teens and early twenties when they had to deal with a chaotic country that almost fell apart into many pieces, and the rest of them were shot during the purges on the late 20s and 30s. In the 30s the bloodthirsty sadists came to power (with very unfortunate consequences to the country) and since the 50s the pragmatists ran the slowly dying colossus. I am quite sure that the preponderance of peasants in the Russian population didn't make that much of a difference and even if the majority of the population *were* proletariat, things would have turned out to be much the same.
Face it, Marx was wrong.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Agreed on the cause --> effect sequence. The same [c|w]ould happen in an anarchy, so the government doesn't impart the fear.
:)
My take on the government 'will to power' draws on Nitsche's Zarathustra however. As stated, governments are composed of individuals. Individuals are hungry for power, and being in a position to enforce one's will simply provides the means. A corrupt politician is the example. So is 'you can't fight city hall'. If you call their motives or reasoning into question, you are undermining their means to retain (or continue to gain) power - the resonse is driven by self-preservation. {tangent!! Ooga! Ooga!}
This is why Communism failed {IMHO}. Individuals were handed means, and their individual interests overpowered the ideology.
So, same conclusion: We should prevent (through inspection, peer-review, whatever) individuals and interest-homogenous groups of individuals (government, corporations, special interests, ethnicities, religions, earning brackets... umm.. thin ice?) from achieving too much power over other individuals or groups thereof.
Thomas Jefferson said that a majority has no more right to enforce it's will onto an individual than an individual does to enforce his will onto a majority. This was said in the context of tyranny vs democracy. Oddly, Jefferson was a slave owner. Go figure!
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
04.08.1999
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) places a ban on satellite phones, deeming them a risk to National Security. This ban remains in effect until the 43rd amendment (2011), outlawing any audio communication not routed through FBI voice-processing computers (VPCs).
21.03.2000
U.S. cryptography export regulations are tightened, limiting which countries cryptographers are allowed to visit. Banned countries include Tibet, Botswana, and the entire continent of Antarctica.
02.04.2001
President Bush Jr. (xtR)announces a "new commitment to making this country safe," and demands a four billion dollar budget for the Selective Wire-tapping Initiative Group (SWIG).
21.09.2001
SWIG begins random wire-taps under direction of the Federal Bureau of Investgation and Communication (FBIC).
13.10.2002
FBIC announces an alliance with France (a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft Global) with the goal of "stopping all those France people from speaking in code."
01.02.2004
The US government places a temporary ban on fiber-optic pathways. Senator Slade Gorton (xtxtxtR, WA) cites that they "pose a very real, very present, very immediate threat to national security."
30.01.2005
President Bush Jr. signs into effect legislation requiring all citizens to carry Personal Identification Cards (PICs) which state relevant information including height, weight, gender, marital status, and political affiliation.
25.05.2007
After being re-elected by a landslide vote in the first MS Vote(tm) presidential election, George Bush pushes for stronger personal information availability. Personal Informative Devices (PIDs), which must be left on at all times, broadcast the wearer's religious affiliation, sexual orientation, and Operating System. A group of renegade Linux hackers, lead by known occultist Linus Torvalds, re-preogram their devices, thus creating Personal Un-identification Devices, and a great furor over the use of their PUDs.
05.11.2008
In a show of just how stupid they really are, the American people vote George Bush Sr. (xtxtR) back into the White House.
07.04.2009
President Bush Sr. gets lost on his way to the bathroom. In a breach of policy, he is not replaced by Vice President A Mr. Potato Head Doll, but by a vat-grown clone of J.E. Hoover.
08.04.2009-03.01.2013
History not available as it poses a risk to National Security.
04.01.2013
MS George Bush 3 takes office.
07.01.2013
MS George Bush 3 collapses in the Oval Office from apparent heart-failure.
013.07.2013
The Federal Bureau (FB) places a temporary ban on eye-contact, citing a high risk to national security.
I'm Abram Bender. You're not.
Isn't it true that organisations only render evidence inadmissable as evidence if they don't gather it under a warrant? This means, they can do as much wiretapping as they like when out fishing for criminals, then they can apply for a warrant to get the evidence needed to nail the criminals.
No, the fact of illegal search or wiretap not only invalidates it as an evidence against the person who was searched or wiretapped but can also get them sued just for doing it regardless of the reasons or purpose. There probably can be a lot of trouble with proof (unless they attempted to use it in court -- that makes proof of their illegal activities self-evident), however once it's proven, they are guilty.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
So, same conclusion: We should prevent (through inspection, peer-review, whatever) individuals and interest-homogenous groups of individuals (government, corporations, special interests, ethnicities, religions, earning brackets... umm.. thin ice?) from achieving too much power over other individuals or groups thereof.
We are almost in complete agreement, except that I would add a big stick to the means to prevent groups from getting too much power. Big sticks on occasions can be very useful...
You are also right that the issue boils down to the philosophy of individual vs. a group. There is a basic, axiomatic choice to be made: in case of conflict of an individual and a group, whose values/interests/goals/points of view are more important? It's almost impossible to argue this issue, as it is too basic -- it's like arguing the existence of God. The issue under discussion -- what are acceptable limits to what a group can impose upon an individual "for the common good" -- follows directly from the stance taken in the base issue. Obviously, libertarians tend to favor the individual, and utilitarians tend to favor the group.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Capatalism isn't an economic system at all. Capatalism is a political repression system, where one of the major ways to make the poor completely dependent on the wealthy is to keep the means of production from the ownership of the poor, and use the poor as cheap labor.
See the flaw in your reasoning yet?
When the FBI says in 1993 that crime statistics show that 8 out of 10 Americans will be the victim of a violent crime during their lifetime, it's not paranoia.
It's common sense.
Have you ever read Strong on Defense? It's a thoughtful book. One of his main points is My safety first, your feelings second. His book is full of stories of people who were raped and murdered because they were trying to be considerate and didn't want to offend people.
Really, who gives a fuck if you are insulted or think I'm rude as long as I am still alive and okay?
What's more, I think the girl did the right thing by not pulling over. She should have kept driving until she found the first open business. Sorry that some police did the prudent thing by checking you out. Sorry that you were offended that they did their job. Sorry that some girl was afraid of stopping in a dark road in the middle of the night at the urging of some guy she does not know.
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as harsh here, but really, I think she was prudent to not take the chance by stopping.
I also think that the insecurity the average person feels on a dark street when a group of youths carrying guns approaches them has nothing to do with the government's paranoia of Iraqi terrorists or biological weapons. It has to do with the fact that Americans kill, rape, and rob other Americans.
Finally, how exactly were you punished? Were you crucified? I don't think so. So just chill down and get off your offended high horse.
Or would you prefer that when a scared woman calls the police they just ignore her complaint and don't follow up on it? What's the next step? You call the police because you think there is an intruder in your home, or because you were mugged and they figure you're just overreacting? Please. The police have an obligation and all they did was ask you some questions. Were you charged with anything? Did they incarcerate you?
You weren't punished in any way. So don't try to pretend that you were.
You've hit the nail right on the head. It's always annonying to hear anti-communists rants from people who have obviously never read the Communist Manifesto.
Additionally, there is a big difference between big-c Communists, and small-c communists. Big-c Communists are members (or supporters) of the traditional Communist Parties in China and the former USSR. Neither of these parties have exactly adhered closely to the ideals laid down by Marx. Small-c communists, on the other hand, are simply people who believe that the society Marx proposed would be a good one to work towards. This is analogous to the relation between small-d democrats and big-d Democrats. Just about everybody in America calls themselves democrats, but not everybody votes for the Democratic Party.
He said reason doesn't exist because he didn't see anyone using it. Kind of like how the world doesn't exist at night.
Are you sure he was being literal?
04.08.1999
The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) places a ban on satellite phones, deeming them a risk to National Security. This ban remains in effect until the 43rd amendment (2011), outlawing any audio communication not routed through FBI voice-processing computers (VPCs).
21.03.2000
U.S. cryptography export regulations are tightened, limiting which countries cryptographers are allowed to visit. Banned countries include Tibet, Botswana, and the entire continent of Antarctica.
02.04.2001
President Bush Jr. (xtR)announces a "new commitment to making this country safe," and demands a four billion dollar budget for the Selective Wire-tapping Initiative Group (SWIG).
21.09.2001
SWIG begins random wire-taps under direction of the Federal Bureau of Investgation and Communication (FBIC).
13.10.2002
FBIC announces an alliance with France (a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft Global) with the goal of "stopping all those France people from speaking in code."
01.02.2004
The US government places a temporary ban on fiber-optic pathways. Senator Slade Gorton (xtxtxtR, WA) cites that they "pose a very real, very present, very immediate threat to national security."
30.01.2005
President Bush Jr. signs into effect legislation requiring all citizens to carry Personal Identification Cards (PICs) which state relevant information including height, weight, gender, marital status, and political affiliation.
25.05.2007
After being re-elected by a landslide vote in the first MS Vote(tm) presidential election, George Bush pushes for stronger personal information availability. Personal Informative Devices (PIDs), which must be left on at all times, broadcast the wearer's religious affiliation, sexual orientation, and Operating System. A group of renegade Linux hackers, lead by known occultist Linus Torvalds, re-preogram their devices, thus creating Personal Un-identification Devices, and a great furor over the use of their PUDs.
05.11.2008
In a show of just how stupid they really are, the American people vote George Bush Sr. (xtxtR) back into the White House.
07.04.2009
President Bush Sr. gets lost on his way to the bathroom. In a breach of policy, he is not replaced by Vice President A Mr. Potato Head Doll, but by a vat-grown clone of J.E. Hoover.
08.04.2009-03.01.2013
History not available as it poses a risk to National Security.
04.01.2013
MS George Bush 3 takes office.
07.01.2013
MS George Bush 3 collapses in the Oval Office from apparent heart-failure.
013.07.2013
The Federal Bureau (FB) places a temporary ban on eye-contact, citing a high risk to national security.
I'm Abram Bender. You're not.
Urgh.
"Communism is not an economic system at all. It is a political repression system, where one of the major ways to make the people completely dependent on the government is to prohibit private property (other than personal one)."
This is not true. Communism, as it was originally intended, is the united force of the population taking care of itself through cooperation. ("Workers of all nations unite" (At least, I think that's how it goes)) What most misinformed Americans (including myself up until about two or three months ago) believe the only form of communism is the supposed Russian atrocities, but this is false. Many countries are using some form of communism.
In true communism, people give up their possessions voluntarily, to provide for a better life for others. It is only when these rules are enforced at penalty of death that communism becomes what most consider it to be.
Personally, I'll forever be thankful that I live in the United States, but I can actually see that other systems are not totally evil.
o/~ All God's children shall be free in Pirates of the Caribbean, when we reach that Magic Kingdom in the sky... o/~
Point well taken, but as I see it, the two issues are strongly interconnected.
I agree that distrust of the establishment is the duty of all citizens. After all, the gummint is there to represent US, it is there to work for US and to carry out our orders. We tell the gov what we want by voting. [If politicians tell us what we want to hear to get elected, and then do their thing, the system fails, but that's another matter]
But as people are distrustful of the gov, their distrust is unfocusable. It becomes a heat-seeker, and targets the strange, the unknown and the different. A black family in a white neighborhood, or the smiling stranger in a faceless crowd.
My point is that the overall level of distrust in the country is such, that it is out of control. It should be applied rationally, but there's simply too much of it. Each day we hear about murders, molesters, shooting sprees... Who has time to think through the latest anti-encryption legislation and what it really means, when they're worried about "road rage", Tim McVeigh and the kids in the local high-school??
The government is (intentionally or not) playing the same game that makes the insurance companies tick. The probability of any given individual being a homocidal freak is small, but eveyone has to pay [with their liberties] to provide some semblance of security. This is why kids have to pass through metal detectors on their way into a school. They are uniformly subjected to heavy-handed authoritative behavior control, to protect them from the freak. But the message they receive is that any one of them might be a freak, and so they should be afraid of everyone.
Our rights and liberties are being reduced to the lowest common denominator level. It's akin to political correctness - you're not allowed to do anything that someone, somewhere, somehow, might construe as offensive or threatening. You can no longer extend your hand to a stranger, because there is the potential that you will hit them. So if you hold out your hand, you're likely to get a hand-cuff on your wrist as a result.
Looking back, I truly regret making that girl nervous enough to call the police - the thought never crossed my 'eager to help' mind. But more importantly, I'm sorry that she lives with so much fear in her life. I'm sorry she'll pass it on to her kids and friends and co-workers - just because some freak tried to flag her down on the highway.
I'm sorry that she's so concerned about her immediate safety, about the threat of another individual, that she doesn't think rationally, and is therefore likely to vote for a liberty abridging ordinance to settle her worried little mind. And this, Kaa, is how being paranoid of individuals is connected to being paranoid of the government - at least in this freak's head.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Well, I had a similar history.
While I was waiting for the bus to go back home from work, I saw a fight, two guys of my age, looked like normal persons, but really upset. In a moment a guy dressed "civilian" came running into the scene with a gun. From the bus stop I yelled "hold on, is not that serious". A simple fight, mostrly insults, don't require a 9mm gun.
Well, the guy was a cop, and in minute one of it's partners arrested me for being involved in a street fight...(?!). Just because I tried to tell them that it was a simple fight (traffic problems) and a gun was a bit out of place.
Next time I'll keep silent and I'll watch the guy kill someone. Who cares? This is the new millenium society!
This is the information age. It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with information. They are trying to figure who is on their side, and who's not.
By the way, I'M NOT ON YOUR SIDE, YOU BASTARDS!!!
--- "So THAT's what an invisible barrier looks like!" - Time Bandits
So all the potential buyers will have to buy and register somewhere else then.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Yes, and your statement is essentially correct. There is a band in the 1.6GHz range that is very popular for radio astronomy use, and the Iridium phones are transmitting right next to it. This adjacent signal can overwhelm the extremely sensitive receivers used in radio astronomy. They can't really filter Iridium out because the filter circuits reduce the sensitivity in the band they are interested in.
There have been some agreements between astronomers and satellite telephone providers; take a look here.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
Check out the other reply, I mean; can't people express themeselves without juvenile vulgarity? The again he's probably a pubescent 21 year old who thinks every f*ur letter word is a great way to make a point.
/. post will show.
My reply...easy; I like being safe; and while it's shame that happened to you, ask yourself if she was your sister or wife; if that wouldn't make you feel better.
I have friends in Law Enforcement, and the trick is.. they are all fine people, who think of the greater good. Not Hitler types who want to infringe rights at every turn.
But you're right, there is too much paranoia, as the reply's to this
1984=1999, seriously
Since I've had fantasies about living on a cruising yacht, where exactly this kind of highly portable, global service would make a lot of sense, I was intrigued by Iridium and did some careful checking.
(1) It's useless for data. I believe the top transmission speed is something like 2400 baud.
(2) It's horrendously expensive. The older Inmarsat technology can deliver a similar service using a suitcase-sized phone for about $ 1.50 a minute. This is less than half the cost of Iridium, and the phones cost about the same. Reports I've read about Iridium say that Inmarsat service actually works, with far superior service quality.
(3) Service quality is terrible. It must be used outdoors, line of site with the satellites. Again, the old technology works a lot better.
I read a news.com article (linked to the original story) which said that Iridium is failing because of marketing deficiencies. This is not true at all; I think Iridium's ads were pretty cool. The problem is the product and the pricing, both of which are terrible. As a cruising wannabe, I can only hope things get better.
I hope GlobalStar realizes that unless they give much better service than Iridium, they will go down the same path. Lower per-minute rates are a good start, but they'll need to supply decent service, too. And that's going to be tough.
D
----
"In true communism, people give up their possessions voluntarily, to provide for a better life for others. It is only when these rules are enforced at penalty of death that communism becomes what most consider it to be. "
hmm so what do i live in? false communism? heh here in Canada and I imagine in the States as well is my taxes are "involuntarily" used for welfare, to provide a "better?" living for others. Its all shit no matter how you look at it.
A few years back I read a novel about a corrupt FBI agent, involved in a drug trafficing scheme. This FBI agent used a device called an "electronic ear" to hunt down a young man who had evidence of the FBI agent's misdeed's. According to the novel, the "electronic ear" could monitor several thousand phone calls simultaneously and would flag and trace any calls containing pre-programmed phrases, such as the young man's name.
Using this device the corrupt agent was able to monitor all of the calls to/from the young man's relatively small home town.
Does anyone know if such a device exists or is being developed? With the recent developments in voice recognition technology, it seems like such a device would be possible, although it may be more limitted in the number of calls that can be monitored simultaneously. Nevertheless, if these could be made cheap enough, the government literally could monitor the communications of a large segment of the population.
Didn't Justice Brandeis say something about how the greatest danger to liberty comes from well-meaning men?
No one ever sets out to be an evil tyrant.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
You're making several factual errors.
... Prohibiting private ownerships of the means of production has.
...Some Marxist ideology skipped...
I don't think so.
I suggest you READ the Communist Manifesto - it's available on the web
I have. I've read it before there was a Web.
Prohibiting private property has nothing to do with communism
And that's exactly why I said "other than personal". Private property other than personal is, to a great degree, property of means of production.
That's all fine, but we are not talking about Marxism, we are talking about communism. See the my post above about the two meanings of the word "communism". You may argue that the system that existed in the Soviet Union, etc. was not really Marxist, and technically was not communist at all, but the common usage in the Western countries clearly points to the USSR as the quintessential "communist" country. Marxism in its pure form was never implemented anywhere, so there is not much point in discussing what society might have looked like it it has happened somewhere. Communism (again, in the common meaning) has happened -- and the consequences were very brutal and unpleasant.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Maybe we should pick one specific time to all call someone we know and put the slashdot effect to work :)
"Power comes from the barrel of a gun".
The metaphor still works today, but it's a little different. More like: power is in the hands of those who are feared.
Now assuming the FBI isn't the corrupt force that we believe it to be and that they actually are looking out for our "national interests," this means that the people get the power. This is the point of a democracy. So we aren't really loosing any power, just sacrificing direct control of it for indirect control.
I can see the appeal of just getting a .44 and going hunting for stupid bureaucratic tech-illit. pencil pushers... Jesus...
Kill 'em all...
Oi!
... to overthrow the gov't, that is. All these people say that today's society and technology and all are so different than 200 years ago, so things in the Constitution really aren't valid any more. That's bullshit. People like Jefferson knew exactly what they were doing and why. But no one understands that any more.
I think that we Slashdotters should have some political discussions about new laws and such, but also about the 2000 elections, who stands for what and so forth.
IMO, many of the country's laws need are awful and go against what the founding fathers wanted. If you listen to what Jesse Ventura says about social issues, I almost totally agree with him(the problem is the guy sounds like a moron sometimes, and I really don't know about economic stuff). I don't know if he practices what he preaches, but if so, we need more like him. Basically he says that the government should stay the fuck out of people's personl lives. That means abortions are legal, drugs are legal, nothing against homosexuality, etc. That makes a lot of sense to me, far more than those damn Flying Monkey Right Republicans saying all that stuff is against the Bible, so it should be outlawed.
So anyway I say ease up on the restrictions before the people get fed up and the gov't loses power altogether. The more of this shit I hear about, the less disappointed I'd be if it came to that.
Consider the McCarthy witchunts of a few decades ago (when super-paranoid Uncle Sam hounded his OWN citizens and demanded they answer questions abut their political views. "Are you now, or have you ever been, a Communist").
.sig :)).
These days, if your government wanted to track all Communists, for example, they woudl no longer need those expensive and potentially embarrassing trials.
I take your point, but I think it is important to remember that the McCarthy trials were not in any way, shape or form about finding 'communists'. It was all about a particularly objectionable group of people retaining and increasing their power. The trials were not only desirable to those involved, they and the publicity they generated were the whole point (There may have been some rather ignorant and stupid people involved who actually believed they were fighting the 'dirty commies', such people have always and will always be used as pawns in the games of others (to paraphrase a certain astute political analyst mentioned in my
- "I never could learn to drink that blood and call it wine" - Bob Dylan (Tight Connection to my Heart)
I've been thinking about this for a while now and it strikes me this would make a really good fun project and would pretty much render any of the govt's half-assed attempts of listening in obsolete. I'm thinking something that looks like a ratshack dialer that negotiates strong encryption on pickup (providing clearvoice if negotiation doesn't work). i.e. something *really* simple to use. Well okay maybe that wouldn't work, maybe just building the specs for a phone..
:)... have a serial port or something that uploads the code automatically (via windows,macs,linux etc) .. the hardware kidz don't have to worry about export controls since they are just selling a glorified modem, and the software kidz can write their own drivers..
.. l og->decryption->voice
:) )
:)
But to get around encryption policy, we'll do what all the smart kidz do, separate hardware from software
I guess this can be done in steps
1) providing strong encryption capabilities to 'net phones' would be easy to do (if this hasn't been done already)
2) work out a simple box that basically mimics the capabilities of a modem i.e. just like above but automatically
voice->digital->encyption->analog->phoneline->ana
3)stick the code in ram use the cheapest general purpose chips available, on a cheap circuit board, provide an interface to upload the code *separately* from the hardware..
but make the use is simple enough that everyone and their mom will use it.. (i.e again it should be no more complicated than plugging it in to a serial/usb port and running a program that asks for a number between 512->8192 for length of key for example
hell how cool would it be to make the thing
get the code automatically by dialing up a 1800 number !
now no one will get busted for selling the hardware since by default it doesn't do anything or just sends cleartext (or clearvoice i mean:)). The software people will do what they are good at.
We *ALL* know how efficient it is for the govt to surpress software based encryption right?
(Basically the idea is that the only thing that
is slowing strong encryption down is ease of use rather than any matter of principle)
What do you guys think? Have I been smoking too much crack?
This reminds me of a friend who while walking at night saw a car with its lights on parked on the street. He went over to the car, opened the door, turned off the headlights, and went on his way. A few minutes later, the police arrived. It seems the owner of the car saw my friend "rumaging through" his car and called the police. To make a long story short, my friend wasn't arrested but was searched and questioned for about 20 minutes then told to "go straight home" and not to be seen on the streets at night.
So much for good deeds.
#define LONG_WINDED_MEANDERING_RANT
;-)).
Ironically, on the issue of encryption, big multi-national corporations are more-or-less on OUR side. They do not want their critical business data compromised by some corrupt agency entrusted with key escrow. If privacy is completely outlawed, that means that they can't legally have any privacy either.
The conflict is pretty national security interests against absolutely everyone else. Statism is worse than corporatism in this case. (Admitting that the State-Corporate relationship has become rather incestuous)
Corporations operate within the law. Usually when we rail at them it is for some erosion of our liberties that they have successfully lobbied the GOVERNMENT to enact.
Corporations mechanistically seek the benefit of those they serve (shareholders) within limits imposed on them by the state (laws). Moral Good/Bad doesn't have much to do with it -- they are playing by game rules. I think the reason that capitalism has been so successful an economic engine is that it does not require moral 'goodness' of its participants to function.
The institution which constrains corporate actions is the state, which in rhetoric serves all the people, particularly the non-powerful, for the principles of fairness and justice. This is the institution that has failed in its mission as well as the institution that is depriving us of freedom now.
It is a shame that since we do not have a functioning democracy things have gotten to this point. Institutionalized corruption (i.e. campaign finance + media campaigns) masquerading as democracy has predictably failed to insure us our liberties.
The appalling lack of vigilance in defending their liberties by an apathetic people definitely gets a big heaping serving of blame, though.
Corporations serve those that own them. The government is supposed to serve the people. When corporations end up owning everything in sight it is the government that has failed.
On encryption, I'm pretty sure it is not evil corporations lobbying for restrictions on encryption because they pretty much think said restrictions are stupid and make things more difficult for them. The only people lobbying for fascist encryption laws are the police/national security interests.
A world in which information can be effectively and easily be hidden from subpoenas and spooks is a world in which these agencies cannot be effective and needn't continue to exist. (Gee, what a horrible thing that would be
Nations are becoming paranoic because they have realized, correctly, that they are no longer needed.
#undef LONG_WINDED_MEANDERING_RANT
There already is a law: in 1996 the FBI got Congress to pass a law requiring the phone companies to build in silent tapping ability on all phone systems. The FBI was afraid that they wouldn't be able to tap digital phone calls with their old analog skills. This Iridium mess is an offshoot of this law.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
This poster seems completely ignorant of history. To assert "they [Founding Fathers]would have supported the ability to infringe on those folks rights (who would commit such crimes) for the greater good of the nation." Is utterly ridiculous. In case the poster doesn't realize it, the "Founding Fathers" were revolutionaries who used armed force to overthrow the "legitimate authority" and laws of the colony.
I suggest that the poster read a little Jefferson, Madison etc. before he further embarrasses himself by displaying such ignorance.
Needless to say - I strongly disagree with the posters position in addition to being offended by the asinine assertions with respect to the historical context of this type of behavior. Remember, they were just enforcing the law and following the orders of "legitimate" authority in WWII era Germany, in Cambodia, in Argentina, in Chili and so on.
"I believe the children are our future: nasty, brutish and short."
Morton Halperin, the guy spearheading this drive, used to run the Washington, DC office of the ACLU. He knows as much about privacy issues as anybody.
He'll make sure the gov't protects your privacy. You have nothing to fear. Your fears are irrational. You can't point to a single instance where the Clinton adminstration has ever abused private information, so pipe down.
Does anyone else think this could be a high ranking Canadian official? Or even Bill Clinton pretending to be some silly Canadian.
Hmmm?
>Why woud they go to all these lengths to gather info on everybody just to sell it to corporations?
Why do you think that several states are selling Driver's License info (along with digital pictures) to a company to make a HUGE "check fraud" database?
We've been sold out, most of us aren't able to realize it though.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Sounds just like something a Cop would do.
Don't give in though! We can't let the police/gov. bully us. We are supposed to own this country god dammit! The people!
I know some people who have had their cars searched without any probable cause at all. If a cop ever tries that with me, I'm gonna kick his ass. Sure I may take a beating and get arrested, but I will make a statement. We are supposed to have rights, we need to protect them.
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient... - High Road to China
to paraphrase:
he FBI is concerned that it would have to go through Canadian
government officials to win a wiretap on any calls going through
these stations--an idea it strongly opposes. Allowing
information about surveillance operations to go through foreign
government channels would be a serious violation of national
security, one FBI official said.
Screw the FBI!! I don't live in your damn country and I don't want to live by your damn laws.
It will come to the point in a few years where there will be 20 differnt satelight phone companies, maybe one will ignore the US market for some reason ( to many stupid encrypt/tracking and other laws). If this happens all the criminals will by this phone and go on there merry way.
Hell I bet some criminal organizations have made 1024 bit encryption devices to work over sat phones now.
Basically my point is that this is used to spy on the average joe or "low-class" criminal. Not the real "threats."
Oh and I am writing this anon, because lord knows it will be against the law to flame the FBI in a few years. But I am sure Echelon is logging all IP's and postings to slashdot and correlating this with phone records at my ISP, I have nothing to worry about........
"Why woud they go to all these lengths to gather info on everybody just to sell it to corporations? thats just ridiculous. "
Yes, that would be ridiculous, if that were the reason your government wants to gather everything it can about you.
However, the REAL reason is that they want to know everything about all of you, so they can keep tabs on those who might cause them trouble, for example.
Consider the McCarthy witchunts of a few decades ago (when super-paranoid Uncle Sam hounded his OWN citizens and demanded they answer questions abut their political views. "Are you now, or have you ever been, a Communist").
These days, if your government wanted to track all Communists, for example, they woudl no longer need those expensive and potentially embarrassing trials. They simply check back through the files they have built up on each and every one of you (from tapped phone calls, intercepted cellular calls, intetrcepted non-encrypted EMail, etc) and they know instantly whether you are One Of Theirs or a Bad Guy To Be Kept Under Control.
Do enjoy your "freedom"...
Since Iridium is a LEO constellation, the satellites are always moving wrt the Earth. The US and China should be having the same satellite coverage.
I wonder if there's a source of electrical interference causing the problems instead, like maybe a frequency conflict with a different ground-based communications system, i.e. some wildcat mobile phone operator infringing on their bandwidth.
br)Phil Fraering "Humans. Go Fig." - Rita
(currently testing something about signatures here)
Please, don't forget about the children. This is why it's being done. Terrorism must be stopped at all costs even if it means taking random persons from the population and sending them to "the showers." The Bill of Rights is nothing more than toilet paper, and used toilet paper at that. We don't need it anymore since the introduction of terrorism and child abuse. Terrorism is very serious. At least every other day my car explodes, a very contagous and fatal airborne disease is released into the air, or a grenade strikes my head as I walk out to get the newspaper. It's terrible people!!! If taking my rights away gets rid of terrorism then good!!! They need to get rid of that stupid 2nd ammendment crap. If guns were outlawed then how could you be a good terrorist?
Of curse people when looked as individuals are good. But what counts is their behaviour as a group. When looked at it under that light it takes a very strange state of mind to become a cop. Another good example: Slashdot mob behaviour.
To summarize: A man in ancient China invents a kite that can be used for human flight (a sort of hang glider.) The emperor sees the man flying in the sky, and summons him to the court. After the man decribes the operation of the machine, the emperor informs him that he will have to be excecuted, regretfully explaning, (paraphrase) "It is not you I fear, but another man, one who will use the machine for evil purposes." The man is beheaded and the machine burned with his remains, because the security of the state is paramount.
This is always the case in an authoritarian regime.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Now, I don't think this is one big conspiracy. Each of the individual decisions may make sense, but the overall result is that the government, and possibly other people with enough money, can find out just about anything about you that they want to.
This might not be quite so bad if everybody understood clearly the possibilities. But most US residents still seem to assume that their privacy is protected, that their conversations are private, and that a purchase at most results in annoying junk mail.
Similarly, the legal system and juries have no basis yet for judging the new realities. For example, setting penalties for anything from traffic violations to murder has not only been based on the severity of the infraction, but also on the likelihood being caught; penalties for speeding and car pool violations are high because people get away with them most of the time. If photo enforcement changes that, it completely changes the equation.
There is also considerable potential for abuse of such data. Information gathered by these means may not reveal illegal behavior, but law enforcement may still be used to embarrass and harrass potential witnesses or suspects.
The US strikes me like one of the countries furthest along in eroding privacy rights. For example, in many other countries, strong encryption is legal, large cash tranasactions are not subject to reporting requirements, and buying plant growing equipment doesn't automatically make you suspect of growing pot (or if it does, it may simply be legal).
Many of those mechanisms have been put into place under the umbrella of the "war against drugs", "anti-terrorism measures", and "protecting US defense secrets". But the societal costs resulting from the compromises that needed to be made to achieve those goals are not well understood. I must admit, the US government's obsession with drugs, terrorism, and defense secrets strikes me as bordering on collective paranoia.
We may well be able to live comfortably in a world in which all of our actions are very transparent and accessible to a wide variety of government agencies and businesses. But the combination of 19th/20th century laws, behaviors, and assumptions of privacy together with 21st century surveillance, tracking, and database technology strikes me as very dangerous. Either we have to regulate surveillance uses of these new technologies and enact strong privacy regulations, or our society has to undergo some profound transformation to deal with the new realities.
This is how.
I vowed to make my site know only when a news article calls for it. Well this one does.
We are all mad, we are all upset, but none of us are helpless.
Use your technological skills formulate a sane privacy policy and practice that everyone can use.
Let's make this a community effort to let Uncle Sam know that we don't agree.
It's not that hard, one just has to care about it enough to do something.
To all the non-believers who think I'm BS'ing, tell me how it could be done better and if you have a better way, that's how we'll do it!
I'm not trying to be a leader or call the shots, I'm trying to set it off...
Somebody else can be the leader. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing something. Hell with it... y'all get the picture...
This is the FBI we're talking about. This is the organization that was illegally surveilling every significant civil-rights organization in the US in the '60's, 70's, and 80's.
This is the pack of jackbooted thugs who stormed Randy Weaver's house, murdering his wife and son, after he refused to show up in court on a charge that he was framed with.
(Remember the name "Lon Horiuchi." Mr. Horiuchi shot Vicki Weaver in the head, with a sniper rifle, knowing that he himself was in no danger whatsoever from Weaver. That son of a bitch would be in the fucking gas chamber if this country still had a *justice* system.)
This is the club of hard-core racists who sent death threats to Martin Luther King, demanding that he commit suicide.
This is the agency who's world-renowned "crime lab" has been shown to have a habit of delivering whatever "evidence" a prosecutor asks for.
I don't *want* their job to be any easier, god damn it. I want them disbanded, and every single agent in the chain of command of *any* illegal operation barred from working in law enforcement anywhere in the United States.
Don't kid yourself. The FBI routinely does things that we'd all like to believe only communist governments do.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The purpose of criminalizing peaceful activities is to allow the government to fuck over anyone they find inconvenient to deal with.
I'll tell you this, though: If the good citizens (i.e those who can still vote because they never did time on a bullshit drug-posession charge) of the USA (i.e those who can still vote because they never did time on a bullshit drug-posession charge) ever decide to outlaw Judaisim the way they outlawed being Japanese in the 1940's, I'll be the best-armed Jew anyone ever tried to ship to a camp.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Do you mean the word "temporarily" or the word "is"?
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
If you americans did not fuck up others, you would not have problems with terrorism. You're messing everywhere in the world and then you wonder why some people attack you.
I live in Canada and here we don't fuck other's ass and as a result we don't have problem with terrorist.
ps: btw i'm not a terrorist. i'm just telling my opinion.
Jerks
(Go ahead, moderate me down, I dare you!)
Kris.
Win a Rio (or join the SETI Club via same link)
It's funny, yes... But I wonder how the CIA, FBI, NSA, IMF, KGB, etc (Echelon et al) would stand up to full disclosure. After all, the government is composed of citizens, and the citizens have the right to know. They should know. Everything. I'm installing a pressure sensor under my toilet seat right now!!
Could the NSA and company HANDLE a denial of service data flood? Any spooks out there care to comment? Comon guys... We know you're listening... Don't be shy.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Market System:
you trade one cow for three sheep
Beauracracy:
the government takes your three cows, kills two, and pours the milk down the drain
Fascism:
the government takes all your cows, and sells you milk
Communism:
the government takes all your cows and gives you milk
"I just can't sit while people are saying nonsense in a meeting without saying it's nonsense" J Watson, Sci Am 288:(4)51
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or
the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
THAT IS: Congress shall make no law prohibiting the freedom of speech.
How about the important link... :> LP's statement against the Digital Telephony and Communications Privacy Improvement Act of 1994. "Therefore, BE IT RESOLVED that the Libertarian National Committee opposes enactment of the proposed Digital Telephony Act as a serious infringement of civil liberties and a gross violation of property rights."
You sound like you've been listening to some of those radio talk-show right-wingers who claim that the ACLU is somehow a compliant tool of the Democratic Party. Worse, someone reading your post might imagine, heaven forbid, that you're so clueless you'd actually believe anything right-wingers have to say about the ACLU.
You've got an Internet connection, yes? Instead of taking Rush Limbaugh's word about the ACLU, why don't you click on over to www.aclu.org and see what the ACLU REALLY thinks about that S.O.B. Clinton, and his totalitarian-leaning Department of "Justice," and his administration's unending stream of "let's all kiss the FBI's ass" legislation?
Why don't you find out what the ACLU really stands for, and what it does? On the ACLU website are details of the dozens of lawsuits they file every year and the countless unconstitutional laws - among them the infamous "Communication Decency Act," which would basically have censored the entire Internet for every citizen in the U.S.A. - laws that the ACLU managed to get overturned in the courts. And then consider this; if it weren't for the ACLU doing what it does, who else would? Then, finally, stop and think about how many fewer effective rights you'd have as a U.S. citizen today if the ACLU hadn't filed all those lawsuits and got all those various laws overturned.
Then once you've freed your head of all that Rush Limbaugh bulls**t, why don't you dig into the old wallet and send off $35 for a membership in the ACLU? That is, if you can afford $35... Best investment a freedom-loving American can make.
You get a nice card, that you can carry around in your wallet, just like the one in mine.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
Government intervention in cases like this is about trading individual
freedom off against freedom for everyone.
I'm sorry, but you can't do this. Freedom for everyone does not exist without freedom for the individual, so trading off individual freedom for group freedom is rather an oxymoron, and certainly doesn't work.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
The U.S. govt is treating its citizens the same way the British governement did prior to the revolution. It's about time we take all the damned wiretapped phone systems, encryption restrictions, mandatory exploding steering wheels, anti-stop brakes, and other nonsense and dump them in Boston Harbor.
9 J
If private communications are outlawed, only outlaws will have private communications.
Fuck, I was having a pleasant day before this shit set me off.
decrypt this...
l'kasjdljeFFASFwf09=2409828R408QE409RF809880980
Surveyors use gps to determine a local position to submillimeter accuracy, without knowing the DOD timing errors, and fisherman determine position to meter accuracy, yet DOJ claims they only want to know which country a caller is in. In fact, with a good satelite array, and gps timers added into the satelites (not in the phones since the phone is the point source in this case and the satelites are the receivers where the signal timing and signal phase will be measured, a kind of reverse gps) they will know the exact geodetic square meter a caller is standing on.
Hell, with this kind location and with SDI microwaves, DOJ could start beaming up political dissidents and other potential pornographers and terrorists. This could become very cost effective for the doj, as they don't have all the warrant paperwork to fill out. hehe;)
When DOJ lies, paranoia rules.
That's what folks who don't want us to worry keep saying - that the feds don't have the time or inclination to spy on the citizenry. You say it yourself, when you said True you take the risk that the law may be abused at some time... However, we already have documented cases of the government abusing the law and the rights of citizens. In the case that lead to Watergate, the people in power used the FBI and other government agencies to spy on people excercising legitimate political activities (look up "White House Enemies List"). And, in the 1950s, during the 'Red Scare', J. Edgar Hoover was hip deep in spying on U.S. citizens.
Now, the Congress has passed a law that gives the FBI the right to spy on its citizens, in the name of crime prevention, by pressing a button in the comfort of their offices. And, we have discovered that the U.S. government has teamed up with other governments (Echelon Project) to spy on their citizens, and those other governments get to spy on U.S. Citizens, bypassing those pesky laws with a wink and a nod.
And you wonder why we're paranoid?
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
Government intervention in cases like this is about trading individual freedom off against freedom for everyone. In many cases, it could be in _your_ self-interest to do X, but if everyone did X, we'd all be worse off. So the government has to step in and forbid X. In this particular case, you're trading off individual freedom to encrypted communciations, against freedom for everyone from terrorist attacks, crime and the like.
This is not to say that I agree with what the US government and the FBI are doing. Quite the opposite in fact. But you can't just say 'Get your hands off me, let me do whatever the hell I want'.
Maybe you don't agree with the tradeoff that the government has made - it gives too much emphasis to the group and not enough to individual freedoms. But in other cases, even you depend on the government to restrict people's freedom. What if everyone decided to apply your 'I know what my best interest is, dumbass' principle to serve their own 'best interest' by, say, stealing? It's in the 'best interest' of individuals, but not of society as a whole.
You can ask them what happens when you have militias with guns roaming the streets. The most important task in Kosovo right now is to disarm the KLA, and get rid of the guns. Otherwise you get revenge attacks, such as those Serbian farmers who were murdered while bringing in their harvest. If the KLA had been disarmed, that would not have happened.
You might argue that the best answer to Serbian military aggression is to arm the KLA and let them fight back; but if countries like Russia had not armed the Serbs in the first place, the war could not have happened.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Must be nice to be able to argue without ever making an argument. Simply label someone and assume that it automatically voids their argument. Nice and neat and totally devoid of any meaning.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Judging from the posts we see here on every privacy related thread, at least part of the population understands how the government is infringing on their rights. I know /. readers aren't representative of the general population though.
Mass media has enormous power to shape public opinion. Even when their coverage is free of bias, their choice of stories presents a bias of its own. I think the reason why most "average" Americans don't appreciate the situation is because they don't see the stories that we do. Most people don't refuse to see their liberties eroded, they are simply unaware of it happening because they either don't take an interest in news or get it from the wrong sources.
Actually, they need at least 4 sattelites to be able to determine your altitude. a nitpick, i know ...
"Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin,
I agree whole-heartedly. There tends to be a trend in society to believe that the Bad News Media is all there is out there. This is not the case, but a profile of someone who helped a homeless person yesterday doesn't seem to be very interesting to news viewers. There will always be bad people in the world, but I would say the majority of people have the same desire as the gentleman above: they want to help people out. It makes them feel good, giving a sense of accomplishment as well as adding to the common good. Ultimately, criminals will generally succeed in what they are trying to do. Need anyone be reminded of Oklahoma City? The men that did that were not geniuses or high-tech UberCriminals. They were farm-boys with too much time on their hands. They didn't use sat. phones or 1024-bit encryption. That is where the FBI has gone awry. They think that the .0001 percent of the world population that is dangerous to society is worth limiting the advancement of everyone else. Give me a break. They will NEVER NEVER catch them all, or prevent all of the crimes. When does the protection become so prohibitive that it is not worth it? When you aren't allowed to have a truly private conversation? When you aren't allowed to drive across state borders with fertilizer for your farm? When you can't buy a gun to go hunting? When you can't buy a computer more powerful than X? You should decide. Not some bozo with to much politcal weight and not enough brains or scruples.
Just my 2 pesos.
They're not after drug dealers. It's all to protect the children, don't you understand? The terrorists are coming! The terrorists are coming!
The FBI and all the other police forces in this country are convinced that if they can just make us too scared to leave our homes, they can achieve control over the regular people. See, regular people scare government officials. They are so disconnected from reality that they think we're crazy. Witness Clinton, calling the average American "Joe Sixpack", as if the biggest concern of Americans was football and beer. These politicians are not normal people, but they think we're the abnormal ones, just because we don't devote our lives to getting campaign contributions. Sometimes I hear a quote from a politician and I'm scared at how crazy it sounded, yet it is accepted as normal!
Communication is only possible between equals
Communism is a completely different thing. Communism is ONLY an economic system. It is not a philosophy of massive oppression and/or censorship on the people.
Whaaaat? [boggle]
Communism is not an economic system at all. It is a political repression system, where one of the major ways to make the people completely dependent on the government is to prohibit private property (other than personal one).
You could, maybe, argue that marxism is an economic system, although there are major problems here as well. But communism?? Communism cannot exist without massive oppression and censorship.
And yes, I know what I am talking about.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Hmmm.. the FBI can't use a satellite phone to figure out where I am or listening to what I'm saying right now, since I don't own a satellite phone..
Think I could get the government to buy me one, since it is evidently imperative to national security that the FBI be able to do those things?
Ther real problem with civil liberties is the attitude displayed in the above post. Civil liberties are being eroded not becuase the big bad government is out to get ordinary citizens, but because ordinary citizens voulantarily give them up. They are convinced by Law Enforcement and politicians that 1) they're not really giving much up and 2) that in doing so they'll be "protecting the children" or "preventing terrorism". The politicains want to get elected so they play on people's fears, and law enforcement always wants more tools to its job.
Anyone seen the 4th amendment recently? Ah yes we gave that up in the "war on drugs" in the 80s, and look what a success thats been. But its much harder to regain protections against unreasonable searches or seizure of property without conviction than it is to give them up.
Technology is yeilding more and more opportunities for law enforecement to monitor everything in order to catch a few criminals. they see a new tool and they want it, its up to us whether we give them what they want. The "know your customer" thing was stopped becuase ordinary citizens and the banks themselves told them that it was too high a proce to pay to catch a few money launderers.
We at least have some influence over law enforcement, the REAL threat comes from entities like insurance companies and marketing firms collecting infomaation on people, over whom we have little influence but alot to loose.
"but have ever actualy seen any terrorists?" -Brazil
It's right there in my old Britannicas.
The problem is several do-nothings and get-noners disinterpreted his writing. And they mostly smoked Hegel, whom Marx criticised.
Marx made a fatal blunder:
He said reason doesn't exist because he didn't see anyone using it. Kind of like how the world doesn't exist at night.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
theres the FBI! what are we paying them for?
they should not need our help to spy on us or
whoever they feel like...
seriously, that thing about speaking in code,
codes can be figured out. my guess is encryption
(email, disk, whatever) is how the carefull do it.
cant be too paranoid...
Where does it say that the government does NOT have the right to tap data/voice transmissions?
If they don't have the right to do this, why would they have the right to tap, for instance, the phone of a mafia boss?
Here's how the ACLU works.
[Cops wiretap phone, email whatever]
[Cops through you in jail, shove a billy club up your ass, etc...]
[ACLU]-- 'You meanies, I'll sue you.'
[You in jail]-- 'Yeah that really fsking helped... Oh my ass!...'
Point- ACLU can complain later, but they did not protect you...
get mad the the natedawg way.
It's not that people don't see it. It's more like they feel powerless to do anything about it (which is exactly how the government wants you to feel). Since going to your elected "represenitive" is, more often than not (esp. when you don't have millions of $), about as effective as talking to a wall.
When the population is polled on the things they'd like to see the government be doing (cleaning up the environment, and protecting it, or spending more on education for an example) the government does exactly the opposite. Most of this can be linked to that least talked about "special interest group", big corperations.
As far as I'm concerned the govenment is in a state of treason against the people of the US. Who by the way own, and are what made this nation great. Our hands, backs, and minds are what make all the good things (and not so good things) in this country. Our tax dollars (which you and I contribute the lions share per dollar we make) fund so much of what creates the rich environment which allow big corperations to make the amount of money they do (more than ever in history) and when they are asked to pay their fair share, or treat us as human they get VERY indigent...
We have seperation of church and state. Now we need seperation of corperation and state. Corperations by their nature have no morals, only the bottom line. If these entities run our nation you can safely bet that our best interest will be nowhere on the political screen.
It took a revolution to get the church out of the state, I hope it isn't needed to do the same for corperations.
Piece
See Subject. This is out of control.
Corndog
Well, I've got bad news for you-all K-Nux... Seems your govt. didn't have the backbone to tell Madeleine Albright to stuff her Kosovo project up her ass, instead you obediently went along and helped do Wall Street's dirty work. So now, sooner or later, you too can expect to see some plenty pissed off Balkan terrorists coming after your asses too...
On the plus side, that is if you like to get really really high, as a beneficial side-effect of your govt's support of the KLA, we all can expect the price of heroin to come way down soon.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net, posting from the United Thousand-Year-Reich of America
The signals are coming down from space.
The NSA has friends worldwide - Australia, NZ, Canada, UK. This covers virtually most of the globe.
Even if you say the signals are within a small 200/200km cell I'm sure the expensive receivers they have can pick up the sidelobes with no problems - remember the signals have to be powerful enough to be received by a handphone, so I'm sure a huge dish can pick up the sidelobes.
It's just a red herring.
Or maybe the Iridium people have friends in FBI and want to slow down Globalstar.. I mean Iridium is _already_ operating, so what's this about FBI approval? Sounds strange to me.. Nah the FBI isn't an Iridium crony right?
israel is currently suppressing the palestenians(sp?) with such efficiency..what makes you think your government wont turn against its own citzens with the same methods once the treaties are signed ?
there are only four ways the United States (which is an economic entity created on the District of Columbia, which is a territory to which the Constitution does not apply, as defined and provided for in the same) can create its minimum wage labor pools, and preserve a competitive advantage in the future global plantation:
... maybe you guessed it ... it's the largest cash crop on the American farm.
... and the wars begin.
1. it can incubate them (as long as each "welfare queen" generates three male and three female workers, welfare is a pyramid scheme producing a 3 to 1 revenue positive program, just like the incubation of slaves by Washington and Hamilton. Requires construction of incubation encampments, known as housing projects.)
2. it can import them (as in opening the floodgates in california and texas, transforming the "excess" populations of other nations into new minimum wage labor pools under US control. In the long run, this can be a revenue negative as it leads to cultural costs (education and medication) and political instability.)
3. it can incriminalize them (for which you are to be credited with the insight of your challenge). It is reported that 50% of the blacks in the District of Columbia are felons, and 2/3 are "within" the DC criminal justice system. This is a well designed cost controlled systematic racial p[r]ogram operated by local police with coordination and funding from the economic entity which is protected by DOJ. It is not due to any genetic inclination of the black american males in the District of Columbia to commit crime. It is all about labor pools and survival in the coming fall of the horrid "nation state" and rise of the kinder-gentler global plantation.
4. it can contract with foreign "governments" for the use of its minimum-wage labor pools, with trade agreements such as nafta, where US corporations drag the US down rather than lifting our neighbors up. (This is risky, because the stability of a foreign labor pool is under dominion and control of a foreign banker/power.)
Boiled all down, systematic incriminalization and welfare incubation are the most cost effective means of reproducing and stabilizing the US minimum wage labor pools.
Economics is what it is all about. The US cannot survive in the coming bankers' global plantation without its own stabilized minimum wage labor pool. Natch, in accord with US policy, derived from the theories of Marx (who is truly the godfather of modern banker-American capitalism) as religious institutions begin to systematically fail in their task of stabilizing future labor pools, then another mroe effective means will have to be deployed to keep the cattle in the pen. The best way to keep a minimum-wage labor unit quiet, happy and stable is
After all, technology plus banker's usury (their "cost" of issuing new fictitious currency as required for circulation of newly created wealth) equals zero sum game, right? And then, along come a little penguin
Message counts on the main page aren't being updated, no posts, etc.
Did someone nuke the US, or what?
Question 2 - is it better elsewhere? REALLY?
:P
Dunno 'bout the "really" part (#define objective reality?) but I do have a habit of idling (soft-drinking) in a city park after lunch, and chat with anyone who comes over (usually sidesteppers of our society). I never have to be afraid. Only a total lunatic would pack a gun in a country where it is strictly prohibited. Robbery doesn't pay that well in a society where money is dealt somewhat evenly between individuals. Even big corps, including the gov't, with huge wealth (==power) tend to behave themselves because they are led by people grown in this society. Everyone can see that this stability is nice and want to keep it such. We even have laws strictly restricting use of databases of persons and explicitly stating it an individual's right to see the info gathered of oneself.
I like playing paranoid and to think of most encounters as possibly hostile, play with ideas of black holes of power, but it makes me amused, not afraid. It doesn't rule my actions.
America seems built with Colts and Winchesters; no surprise sensible worries might turn into panic. It will always be so in any society that leaves too steep a hill between loss and gain for individuals. Establish soft limits to both, and power loses some of its importance. Enough, hopefully, that life will cease to be just a fight. All hail content middle class
Organizing a society that - or any - way becomes quite a hassle if its population is as enormous as quite a few nations/unions nowadays are. Too mucha fsckin' noise. So I don't see much hope for the Spirit of US to raise. They seem forced to have a war going on all the time somewhere now to keep it together.
Have fun.
Hmm, sun has risen. Time for some ice cream in the park.
Off the point: VMware feels beautiful. Never to boot again. If we only had a hotswappable kernel.
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." The United States of America, 1776 - 1999 R.I.P.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
> [...] this "the governement is out to get law abiding citizens" thing s such a crock!
You, apparently, have not had the distinct pleasure of having OSI agents decend up your residence, confisicate all your equipment, get you fired from your $65k a year job, have you evicted from your residence, have your vehicle(s) confiscated, drop a hint to the IRS to have you audited in an effort to tie up your savings so that you can not retain a lawyer and proceed to trump up charges against you, all while leaving you stranded in a foreign country. All because:
1 - you commited a minor indescression in college 10 years ago.
2 - you use internet service accounts that are provided to you, with permission, for free and do not have your identy inheriently tied to the account (remember, rms still has account floating around there)
3 - the organization responsible for securing their computing resources failed to do so.
This happned to me... and I'm still recovering both finacially and emotionally. The USA lost patriotic, law abiding, tax payer when the did this to me. I haven't been inside been back to the US in 5 years and have immigrated to a country that hasn't lost complete touch with reality.
Until you walk a mile in them shoes, you can shut the fsck up.
Oh, and this kind of thing happens every day.
Again, I'm a lowly Canadian here and SOMETIMES I think that our government is a little more sane, although over time the spineless PM here knuckles under to the US for whatever reason. But these events are starting to worry me.
All of this wiretapping crap is done "in your best interest". Well, maybe I know what my best interest is, dumbass. Freedom is not without risk. You can't have it both ways. Personally, I want less governemtn invovlement and more risk - because I can make that decision.
Before the chorus starts up about Drug Dealers, Iraqi Nuclear Bombers, Sarin-Gas wielding manaics, etc, let's assume you're right. Why not give them what they want! Let's wiretap everything. Let's outlaw all encryption. Let's do away with that pesky probable cause. Let's take all the guns from the people. Let's have a drug test mailed in with your income tax. Let's censor the media.
That's not a world I want to live in. That's not what millions of people died in World War II to protect.
We're selling our souls, and it's almost to the point where only outlaws have freedom. Not to mention that gun thing - You can ask the poor people in Kosovo about what happens when you take all the guns. Ban guns in Cities - don't ban my right to OWN a gun. That's how the Wild West worked.
I'm on a rant here - but you can fucking bet that when I get my finances to the point where I'm independantly wealthy, I'll be working on the last refuge we have - transparent encryption of all communications. You've lost all your other "freedoms".
Remember kids.. Power comes from the barrel of a gun. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.
AC.. With damn good reason.
>> It's better in Israel.
I sure hope so but i'm doubtful. It's just that in Israel the people are less vocal (or concerned).
>> Here, everyone who's sane and not a convicted criminal goes into the army at age 18
Do we live in the same country? Ever heard of yeshiva students? The last official estimate talked about >30% draft avoidance.
>> we have a society where everyone learns social responsibility and to take care of each other
What??? The one thing that bugs me here is that everybody wants to cheat everybody else. Because if you don't cheat somebody else you're a "sucker".
>> you'll see every able bodied person within 50 feet step up to try and prevent the crime.
Tell that to Nethaina shootout victims. Tell that to Gil (I forgot his last name) that was knifed in front of witnesses for asking the murderer not to scratch his car.
>> community oriented
I would laugh if it wasn't so sad. You're totally out of touch with reality.
>> Make the draft madatory
And you think Ehud Barak would do that?
>> give every one of them who wants it and doesn't have a criminal record and isn't insane a licence to carry a M-16 EVERYWHERE.
Tell that to the torched kids.
>> You'll see a much better society with rediculously low crime rates result from this.
Yea, right! What would the drivers that scream and threaten each other over right-of-way do then?
>> Israel [...] is the most densly populated country in the world.
Really? Let's check some countries at http://194.95.119.6/basis/e/ausl/ausllae1.htm
* Israel: 273 inhabitants/km^2
A bit crowded but look at our neighbour:
* Lebanon: 300 inhabitants/km^2
Or other european countries:
* Belgium: 334 inhabitants/km^2
* The Netherlands: 383 inhabitants/km^2
Going east...
* Republic of Korea: 460 inhabitants/km^2
* Taiwan: 599 inhabitants/km^2
And finally:
* Singapore: 5549 inhabitants/km^2
* Hong Kong: 5788 inhabitants/km^2
Better check your facts before posting, Sailor Bob.
Gore Vidal was right on the mark when he described the US as a "police state" in Rise and Fall of the American Empire. These measures have nothing to do with law enforcement and everything to do with controlling and monitering law-abiding citizens.
Hmm. So presumably if the Canadian security services want to tap someone it's OK to go thru the FBI? This is an *international* service, why should the US get priority?
Yes. In fact, I'm glowing a translucent, skim milk sortof glow right now.
No, wait, I just need a tan.
Never mind.
The truth is that the the government cares very little about spying on the 90% of the population that is happy to resign themselves to the fact that the system can't be changed, or those that think they can change it but do it purely through letter writing campaigns and other largely ineffective strategies.
If you look at anything good in our current system, whether it is anyone other than a handful of older rich white men having the right to vote, or the (mostly lost) 8 hour work day, the 5-day work week, freedom of speech, slavery outlawed, a decent amount of racial and gender equality, etc. -- what you'll find is that while some purely legal tactics were used, change only happened when people were willing to step forward and do what it takes even if it meant violating a few laws.
To reiterate, it is impossible to fundamentally change society in a positive way without breaking at least one law.
Now, you combine that fact with 99.99% effective law enforcement, and what you have is a semi-free society with positive change made extremely difficult. Even small changes that threaten the powers-that-be would require immense personal sacrifice due to the near-certainty of being caught and punished. And I'm not talking about a handful of martyrs that might inspire thousands or millions of others, but rather thousands of martyrs that scare millions into inaction and "apathy". So what you end up with is a society where you are free to do most things, but those with power are firmly entrenched at the top, and you have no freedom to remove them -- a kinder-gentler fascism, if you ask me.
Think of how many people were imprisoned or killed in an effort to stop the social movements that gave us the rights and freedoms we now have. Now, imagine those past governments having the ability to listen in on nearly every conversation in nearly every medium and zero-in on the relevant ones, getting the content, the identities of the people involved, and they locations.
Of course nowadays, killing and imprisoning is used more sparingly, because "dirty tricks" can be as effective without creating martyrs. If someone is being a thorn in the side of the government, much better to plant evidence so that their spouse thinks thinks they are cheating on them, or forge embarrassing or offensive documents from them to discredit them. The FBI's forgery lab is great at forging ink signatures, but you can bet they don't like the idea of being unable to forge digital signatures...
Anyway, that's my guess of what they're working towards, and they might even believe that they can get what they want. But my guess is that once you remove the ability to change things for the better in non-superficial ways, you've just built up a large dam thinking it can block a small stream. It might work for quite a while, not letting more than a few drops through, but look out for when the dam finally breaks under the pressure!
Makes me wonder why some people become infocriminals...
Fscking hell, I am not American, but those guys are stepping in my freedoms anyway!
While adding tap ability (if it's not already there) to satellite phones is probably easy. Tracing the location of the phone is not unless you require GPS receivers in the phones which transmit their location when you make a call. This has problems. First, GPS receivers can take several minutes to get a first fix on their location. If I just want to turn on the phone and make a call, do I have to wait? What if GPS goes down (routine maintenance or otherwise?) No calls at this time? Also sat phones are supposed to use local towers if available before going to sats. But sit inside of a simple waveguide (metal funnel) and point it at a distant satellite. Without GPS, you can further obfuscate your location. But even without this your location cannot be known to within more than a few thousand miles (or tens of thousands).
Idea #2. Sat providers could set up shop and get their sat broadcast licenses from outside the US (launch their own non-US sats on non-US rockets if necessary) to avoid stupid FBI whining. Yet another way, the FBI promotes business outside the US. Way to go guys!
http://www.ee.surrey.ac. uk/Personal/L.Wood/constellations/
A good source of information on satellite phones.
There's a note about FBI tapping and links to
articles in the Political section of the General page.
Here is why I slightly agree with the FBI on this issue: They want to know what country you are in. Why? Well, because the laws in other countries differ from those in the US. Let's say the FBI has a good, old-fashioned wiretap on someone's home. They recieve a call from a satellite phone. Does the FBI record? They can't if the country the caller is in forbids it. They can if the caller is in the US. The issue should not be that they need to know where your are, but simply under what laws you fall. That way, the FBI doesn't screw up and get sued by some foreign government.
Now, before I get flamed, let me say that I do not feel the FBI should get precise info, or should be given inside access to tap those phones. However, I can definitely see why they might need to know what country you are in at least.
Funny.. I was just thinking it looks fascist.
"Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
Think about this. If every active law on the books were fully enforced today, what percentage of the US population would be in jail? I'll bet the figure is over 75%. The Gov't has recently (last 20 years) been passing lots of laws that it never enforces. Why? The ultimate goal is to set up the laws in such a way that every man, woman, and child living in the US can be classified as a criminal in at least one way. This makes it nice and legal for the gov't to swoop down and eliminate troublesome people from society whenever they see fit.Tell me your predicted % of population jailed if all existing, acive laws were fully enforced and then tell me I'm just being paranoid.What did Koresh and his followers do to deserve ebing EXECUTED by the gov't? Oh yeah, he owned lots of guns (legally) and passed some bad checks. And Kevin Mitnick. Yes he's just stupid, but how many years without a trial now? What was the announced date for one (hand cupping ear)? Hmmm? You can now only buy a gun once per month in California? Substitude "buy a gun" with "exercise free speech", "print anti-govt publications", or "worship your preferred god" and tell me laws like this don't scare the crap out of you.
Iridium's atomic number is 77, which was the original number of satellites.
The actual number flown is 66, which is the atomic number of Dysprosium, which could lead to some funny comments about the service (Dysfunctionium, Dispersium, etc.)
Required Reading: 1984 by George Orwell
I forgot to mention also that every step of taking away rights of the people by easy monitoring, etc is a step towards a 1984 world. If this book doesn't make you paranoid about your rights and the gov't, you have to be screwed in the head.
I've been getting that parania thing a bit too lately.
Their general encryption bitchiness (PGP cough cough!)
Reno's letter
And now this
???
It's not about rights and liberties, it's about fear. It's about the expectation of the worst overshadowing the fact that people are inherently not evil. Bear with me...
...
... snip!
And how does this pertain to the article subject matter? Well, as long as the government insists on making us feel insecure in our own country, with Commies, and Iraqi terrorists, and biological weapons around every corner, we will keep suspecting each other of cruel intentions. As long as we keep being afraid, the government will keep trying to protect us from each other. As long as the government keeps trying to keep us safe, we will feel our rights erode, and we will be even more paranoid.
You miss the point. We (at least I, and I suspect, a lot of people on this board) are not afraid of each other or of individuals in general. The whole discussion is not about threats you face on the streets. I have not heard a single person (as opposed to a governent official or a politician) demand more stringent national security because he was afraid of Iraqi terrorists. Fear and suspicion of fellow people is a completely different topic.
What we are talking about here is government powers and the abuse thereof. I am suspicious of governments and I believe I have good reasons to be. History, and in particular, XX century history, should teach everybody (who is capable of learning, that is) that governments have huge appetite for power and if they get this power, Very Bad Things (tm) tend to happen. It doesn't really matter if the original goals were good/idealistic -- power corrupts and does it quickly and effectively.
I trust people -- but I definitely don't trust governments.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
The only people currently suppressing Arabs in
the west bank and gaza are the Palestinian
Authority security forces. Look at the latest
polls of these arabs and 29% of them rate for
democracy in the PA as good or better while 69%
of them rate Israeli democracy as good or better.
SailorBob
This is somewhat off-topic, but pertinent to the larger theme we're seeing here...
It's not about rights and liberties, it's about fear. It's about the expectation of the worst overshadowing the fact that people are inherently not evil. Bear with me...
Last night, while driving home from a class, I saw a car on the highway, spewing smoke out the back end. Not from the tailpipe, but from underneath the engine. It was coming out so much that when I pulled behind it, I got dropplets of oil on my windshield.
I tried to get the driver (a girl my age) to pull over. I flashed my lights, turned on my directionals and hazzards intermittently, and tried to get this girl to pull over, since I thought she might like to know that she stood to loose the engine if she didn't keep an eye on the oil level. Silly me.
Well, after a couple of minutes, and three lane changes later, the girl wasn't getting the point, and she seemed to be getting upset. So, I wrote a note on a piece of paper that said "leaking oil", showed it to her, and went on my way.
About an hour later, two state cruisers, two troopers and dog show up at my house to take my statement. Apparently, the girl thought I was trying to run her off the road, and kill her, and rape her and whatever else. So much for good intentions.
Well, they took my statement, looked at my car for damage (I should have had them look at the oil splattered on the windshield, but in the moment, it didn't come to mind - I should have kept the note, but I tossed it at a gas station since I didn't need it anymore), and left.
It made me understand how people can stand by and watch as someone gets beaten or killed in the street, and not lift a finger. It's not worth the hassle to go out of your way for another person anymore. It's not worth watching out for your 'fellow man' anymore.
I'm a parochially schooled, college degreed, well paid professional software engineer. I have a steady girlfriend, a nice car, a normal life, and (god forbid!) good intentions. But, with the rampant paranoia (at least in the U.S.) these days, it's hadly worth the hassle of watching out for anyone buy the proverbial 'number one'. It's a mistake I'll have to be careful not to make again.
And how does this pertain to the article subject matter? Well, as long as the government insists on making us feel insecure in our own country, with Commies, and Iraqi terrorists, and biological weapons around every corner, we will keep suspecting each other of cruel intentions. As long as we keep being afraid, the government will keep trying to protect us from each other. As long as the government keeps trying to keep us safe, we will feel our rights erode, and we will be even more paranoid.
We need common sense, and good upbringing. We need to NOT be punished for trying to help. We need to stop crucifying good Samaritans, and start acting like them. We need to stop looking over our shoulder, and start looking into our common good - not just as individuals, but as a nation, and as a world.
And if someone who can afford a satellite phone wants to sneak information past Echelon, they can hire a personal courier.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
This is probably a bit OT, but this story reminds of the movie I watched over the weekend, Enemy of the State. While some of what they depicted may have been over-the-top, it is quite scary to think of the ease with which the government (NSA in particular) could monitor and track every activity and conversation of anyone they wanted with a couple of keystokes. Orwell wasn't too far off in his predictions.
>> >> It's better in Israel. >>I sure hope so but i'm doubtful. It's just that >>in Israel the people are less vocal (or >>concerned). Really? 29% of Americans voted in the last presidential election. Over 80% of Israelis voted in our last election. >> >>Here, everyone who's sane and not a >> >> convicted criminal goes into the army at >> >> age 18 >>Do we live in the same country? Ever heard of >>yeshiva students? Yeshiva students are doing nation service in the form of studying in the yeshiva. Whether or not I agree with the existence of that option, it is legit from a legal pov and isn't draft avoidance. >>The last official estimate talked about 30% >>draft avoidance. Almost all of that is Yeshiva students, which doesn't really count since they are doing national service. The amount of actual draft dodging is pretty small. >> >> we have a society where everyone learns >> >> social responsibility and to take care of >> >> each other >>What??? The one thing that bugs me here is that >>everybody wants to cheat everybody else. >>Because if you don't cheat somebody else you're >>a "sucker". I don't know where your living, but I'm living in Jerusalem 3 years and can't at all agree with that assessement. >> you'll see every able bodied person within 50 feet step up to try and prevent the crime. >> Tell that to Nethaina shootout victims. Tell that to Gil (I forgot his last name) that was knifed in front of witnesses for asking the murderer not to scratch his car. I didn't say bad things don't happen here. Just a hell of a lot less than in the states. >> >> community oriented >> I would laugh if it wasn't so sad. You're totally out of touch with reality. Really? It seems like we've just had a totally different set of experiances. I've met a few other people like you, but I'd have to say that most people I've met here in Jerusalem would agree with me. >> >> Make the draft madatory >> And you think Ehud Barak would do that? I was talking about for them to make it mandatory in the states. It's already mandatory here. It's just that if you go to yeshiva it's a substitute for army service. It also lasts a hell of a lot longer. If you go to yeshiva, you have to stay till your 34! Army service is only 3 years by comparision. >> >> give every one of them who wants it and doesn't have a criminal record and isn't insane a licence to carry a M-16 EVERYWHERE. >> Tell that to the torched kids. Huh? What does one have to do with the other? >> >> You'll see a much better society with rediculously low crime rates result from this. >> Yea, right! What would the drivers that scream and threaten each other over right-of-way do then? All they do is scream and threaten. No one hardly ever actaully does anything. In the states they run each other off roads and shoot each other. >> >> Israel [...] is the most densly populated country in the world. >> Really? I should have inserted, "one of," in there. Let's look at a more acurate example. Jerusalem is something like 25 square miles and 500,000 people while Tulsa, Ok is about 100 square miles and roughly same number of people. J-m is about 4 times more dence than Tulsa but has about 300 murders per year, I think J-m is less than 50 per year. SailorBob
While I agree that the FBI is going too far with sort of thing, and if they can't tell where you're calling from thats their problem (if there is a true national security problem the surely have the resourses to excercise alternative methods to do what they need to do) I must say this "the governement is out to get law abiding citizens" thing is such a crock! Get a grip dude!
Why woud they go to all these lengths to gather info on everybody just to sell it to corporations? thats just ridiculous. If they want more money they raise your taxes. Duh!
aha! it's communist style.
So, what are they gonna do? Take away our PGP? Man. Just when you start to get all excited about how the guv'mint is invading your privacy, you realize that although they're the Enemy, they're a big, slow, dumb Enemy.
Oh, go on, check out my job.
Communism, as it was originally intended, is the united force of the population taking care of itself through cooperation. ("Workers of all nations unite" (At least, I think that's how it goes))
You are somewhat confused. Let's try to clear up some of terminology.
"Utopian socialism": forerunner to Karl Marx from which he (Marx) borrowed a lot of ideas about the desirable form of society. Under utopian socialism everybody lives in the same conditions, labors for the general good, owns nothing, and generally behaves himself. This is basically a secular form of a monastic order. People nowadays tend not to know anything about utopian socialism and tend to be horrified when they learn the details, which are very unpleasant (as in death penalties for insubordination, prohibition on any unsanctioned sex, breeding of people for genetic traits, etc.). Campanella is a good example of an utopian socialist writer.
"Marxism": an economic, social, and political philosophy, formulated by Karl Marx. Never implemented in reality. Economically it is based on common ownership of means of production (Marx was very vague as to who would actually run factories), socially -- on utopian socialism, and politically -- on violent revolution overthrowing existing governments worldwide, with the semi-anarchic global community without any governments to follow.
"Communism": two meanings. Meaning one, the original one: a phase in the socio-economic history of manking that follows capitalism. Very rarely used nowadays. Meaning two, the common one: the political, economic, and social structures implemented in Russia in the beginning of the century, and later in Eastern Europe, China and some other countries. It mostly has been developed by Lenin, so sometimes the word "leninism" is used. I use "communism" in it's second meaning.
By the way, the meaning of the expression "Workers of the world, unite!" is "unite, so that we together can overthrow all the governments in the world". It has nothing to do with population taking care of itself through cooperation.
What most misinformed Americans (including myself up until about two or three months ago) believe the only form of communism is the supposed Russian atrocities, but this is false.
First, I am not a misinformed American. Second, the Russian atrocities are not supposed but quite real. By the best estimates Stalin killed about 20 million people by artificially induced famines in the 20s, plus about 10 million perished in labor camps during Stalin's lifetime.
Many countries are using some form of communism.
Right now I can think of North Korea, maybe Cuba, but that's about it.
In true communism, people give up their possessions voluntarily, to provide for a better life for others.
I don't know what do you mean by "true communism". Karl Marx certainly didn't envision it this way. Some utopian socialist did, but see above re their views.
It is only when these rules are enforced at penalty of death that communism becomes what most consider it to be.
It so happened that these rules always were enforced at the penalty of death. Doesn't it tell you something?
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Perhaps the conflict between State and Corporation will ultimately do for economic liberty what the conflict between Crown and Church in the High Middle Ages did for intellectual liberty -- stir up the pot enough so that there is more room for maneuver than would be possible if either side could always get its way.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
My question is this. When did the United States FBI become the dictator of the world? The FBI wants to do things that they legally don't have the right to do, nor should they. Our rights to free speech are being violated by the FBI being allowed to tap telecommunications of any sort. When you don't want someone to hear what you said, you whisper. Why is it fair that the FBI should be able to "turn up the volume"? Is nothing sacred? What next.. Mind Reading?? I see it now.. you can't think a bad thought because the FBI is watching your brainwaves and they will come arrest you. Geeze.
The FBI should not have the ability to block anything by themselves. I can't understand why they have this power. It should take no less than an act of congress to do such a thing, and even then it wouldn't be the right thing to do.
Its these kinds of things that reinforce my libertarianism. The federal government stopped being by the people for the people a long time ago. We need to put a stop to this kind of thing and the only way to do that is to be actively involved in government. Vote dammit! Keep track of what your senators and representatives are doing, let them know on a regular basis what you believe. Another thing we can all do is closely watch companies/industries that make campaign contributions since these are often used to buy votes. If a congressman/woman is doing things he shouldn't we should boycott the people who paid to get him in office.
Things got to be the mess that they are because we simply didn't take responsibility for our government. The government was created to be accountable to the people, but that only works when we hold it accountable. The only real safeguard against tyrrany is an ordinary person who is informed and willing to fight to preserve freedom.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
(even the dumb ones...)
What many people see as either a failure to see what's going on or "apathy" (not caring about what they see) is often not seeing a viable way to change things.
Sure, they don't know all the details of how fucked up things are, and they might not care about all of it, but in general most Americans think things are basically stacked against us, but they don't see it as something that is possible to change. It's like going outside in the winter time and not particularly liking the fact that it's cold and dark out. Imagine someone walking up to you and saying "Wake up! Don't you see that it is cold and dark out?!?! Do you like shivering and getting all wet from stepping slush?!? We need to change it!"
They'd rightly think you were crazy, and that is what most people think when you talk about how both the democrats and republicans are paid off by corporations and will do anything they can to screw you if it means they can hold onto their power. Or when you talk about the FBI spying on them. They'll say "Well I don't have anything to hide" just as they would say "I've got a warm coat on" -- they've adapted to a society they they don't consider changeable.
And the truth is that is difficult to change things and it can be risky. Fortunately it is still possible.
Personally, I think the IWW is the most promising force for the bottom 95% to effectively change things in our best interests -- freedom, democracy, privacy, dignity, all those good things.
Theyre beginning to realize they're losing their grip on the power structure, so theyre getting tighter and tighter in their control. Its just like censorship issues and publicity grew dramatically when the govt realized they were losing their grip on information control and the CDA 1 and 2 were passed. What I want to see is someone design a relatively cheap device that would attach to a satellite or cell phone and encrypt voice communications even if it makes it CB style, perhaps it could be done with a palm pilot and some sort of interface that would attach to a pay phone or something else.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
If I understand how these things usually run, the FBI will backpedal when the furor starts, then lean hard on Congress to get legislation introduced -- or maybe just get the the FCC to write new regulations -- requiring that these point-to-point sat phones be licensed, maybe with a tagged signal that indicates the phone's license number. (Of course, if I were a terrorist, I'd just grease somebody to get their Iridium, or buy one through several layers of cutouts.) We'll have the satphone technology available to us, but at the cost of Big Brother listening in. BTW, anybody wanna bet on whether the NSA can break PGP? Wouldn't put it past 'em.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
Why do 99% of American refuse to see their liberties being eroded right out from under them?
This WAS the land of the free, but now, every time I turn around, I'm hearing about how the FBI has the right to decrypt my e-mail, listen to my phone conversations and about 100 other things.
Are we all so complacent that we just don't care anymore?
Question 2 - is it better elsewhere? REALLY?
Werd.
I think I'm lost. I can't find my way. Oh look, a man with an FBI hat, he must be able to lead me to nirvana. Bastards, stay the hell out of my life and everyone elses.
Ah, the swelling ranks of the
newly paranoid.
Welcome!
About Iridium, some "end time" religious types
think it will be used to monitor and control
everybody.
If Iridium goes chapter 11, who will end up
owning the system?
Just a little bedtime story.
Who is going to stop these people? We are.
The problem with all these phone thingies is that they are hardware. As everyone knows, manufacturing (and selling!) hardware takes a lot more capital than doing the same with software. There's only so many entities that can manufacture and sell phones, so it's relatively easy for thugs to find them and and strongarm them.
Crypto over the internet is the way. Stuff like PGP is out of the bottle forever and nothing can stop it now. If the government starts attacking its citizens for using it, it will just frighten citizens and make them need it even more.
We still have a couple of problems, though:
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Have a Sloppy night!
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