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Linux Mandrake Gets Major Investor
Stone writes "It's seems that Red Hat get a big competitor with Mandrake. Axa announces today an equity position in Mandrakesoft. Axa is the second world leader of assets management with 650 billion USD and the owner of DLJ who makes a lot's of Nasdaq IPOs." Thus it begins.
I think I'll run out to Staples or wherever, buy a CD burner and some bulk quantity of blank CDs, and start churning out my own RedHat ripoff distro. I'll call it Zed Hat. And all the basic utilities will be replaced with the BSD utilities, thus justifying rms's whining about calling the various distributions "GNU/Linux".
My guess is lots and lots of hookers. Have fun folks, and play safe.
You think so? I think he'll buy whichever box he wants the support from (assuming he knows what he's doing). That's all that's really being sold here, folks: support. All the GPL'ed code is available for the cost of copying it.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I am very happy RedHat has done this, and I am equally happy about dists based upon RedHat that are FREE (as in debian-free).
Uhhh...Mandrake can be had for free too. In ISO format no less if you want it. So what's the problem?
The final victory will come when Microsoft starts to release software for Linux, that will be their white flag surrender. Yep. That will be the day when Microsoft is a bunch of losers. Like Corel and their little cluster of has-been software (Wordperfect in 1999? Surely you jest!)
Mandrake is i586 optimized. I have heard rumors that it will not run on older hardware.
The card manufacturers like Creative Labs write the drivers for Windows. If Linux had a bigger market share they would write them for Linux too. Microsoft doesn't have to write drivers for all the hardware out there, Linux does... So of course they can't compete with Windows in the "Autoconfigure every card on earth" arena.
I want to use Linux, so I buy hardware that works with it. Eventually, hardware manufacturers will realize they are losing market share because Linux users aren't buying their products and voila... drivers will be written for Linux by hardware manufacturers!
buncha putzes.
If I am there to observe him, I'll recommend he log onto www.cheapbytes.com. And spend the extra money on a good book about Linux. All RedHat will get by charging $80 for the box is every rube known to mankind.
Um. No.
It would be cool to start a stickering campaign. Go into the stores and covertly sticker (non-removable, of course) the boxes with various URLs. Like LinuxMall and CheapBytes. Sort of a public information service.
Precisely, mon frere. Look for RH6.1 to have a real Mandrake look & feel as they "steal" the MandrakeSoft improvements.
It's called "positive feedback", and while a Bad Thing(TM) in control systems, it's a real good idea in this context. More power to 'em.
"Study the past if you would divine the future."
-- Confucius (K'ung Fu-Tze)
"...they may harpoon us, but they ain't gonna pick us up on no radar screen!"
Being called dumb is always nice...
Read the GPL? Trust me, I know very well that they are allowed to do what they are doing, and I have no problem with that they are doing it either.
That RedHat uses GPLed software in something they sell doesnt bother me. When someone release a piece of software under the GPL they dont expect to make money from it, and they absolutely do not loose money if it ends up in a dist like RedHat.
Mandrake is making money off something that RedHat is trying to sell, and I just think that it is crappy. I would happily use Mandrake, but I would never pay for it. I know its available, just like RedHat, for free. But at the same time I am more than happy to pay for RedHat, simply because I like the idea of supporting their work.
Mandrake no longer sells itself as "RedHat +".
They now sell themselves as "RedHat Compatiable"
They are trying to further themselves from
RedHat has much as possible.
Awesome!
Please, dont insult me by thinking I dont know the GPL. I know very well that they are allowed to do it. I think they shouldnt. There is a difference. A big one.
Ironically, this type of restriction would, I believe, also make the program undistributable with the debian system, as it does not allow such restrictions.
--
Exigo spamos et dona ferentes
well, some of you :).
"You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you receive it, in any medium..." -- GNU General Public License
Most of the programs in Linux distributions are under the GPL or similar licenses. Where in these licenses does it say, ".. except if someone else has already distributed the program?" I write program ABC, I release it under the GPL. Everyone in the world is free to copy it, mirror it on ftps all around the globe, modify it, even put it on a distribution CD. Are these programs only to be distributed by one vendor?
Yet, there is a ton of people that come out for EVERY Mandrake Linux story here, bitching and moaning about how they just "stole" everything from RedHat, and they do not even deserve the right to exist. With Corel's upcoming distribution based on Debian, will this same situation arise? I sure hope not.
We release programs under the GPL so that they are able to be used/copied/etc for everyone. So where on Earth does this hostility for a small group following the copy clause of the GPL have ANY legitimacy?? If you do not want your program to be copied freely, give it a license that states something like, "This program can only be used on Debian systems, and not any stupid copy-cat distributions either, just the genuine Debian one." As author of a program, that's your right. But you have no right to say, "These people should not copy programs, because well, RedHat already did it."
If you come up with conspiracy theories like stockholders demanding RedHat not allow this sort of behavior, then the stockholders should have read RH's IPO statement, should learn about a company and how it gets the programs on its CDs, etc, before investing any money in it. If this homework is done (primarily reading the GPL a few times), you will see the copy clauses and either believe in them and invest your money, or get scared by them and not invest. If RedHat did anything so close as to make a distribution unable to be copied (they couldn't use any GPLed code, so that would require totally reengineering EVERYTHING), they would get hounded so horribly they would have to go out of business as I doubt anyone in this community would ever trust them again. That is a much larger risk for them than shooting down everyone who wants to copy the distribution.
The official people involved, both RedHat and Mandrake, have said they do not mind either side. Bob Young is always asked this, when I saw him at Comdex this Spring and again at LinuxWorld just a few days ago.
What's this mean for the Linux community at large? Yes, you can copy a Mandrake CD and slap a label on it that says, "Slappy Joe's Spiffy Linux," and sell it for $20, $50, even $199.99. But, to win the hearts of anyone, and make a name for yourself you will have to put in work and make it something that is noticable. Copying alone doesn't win you Product of the Year awards
So, shut your pieholes and do something useful with your time.
Because it wil be the first, err actually second. Solaris is OK , because it costs, and I know work wont go near free stuff like linux. Add a pricetag, wave support, and super expensive hotline support, and watch people BUY. Someone said MS has stitched up the corporate market - as in marketshare. Now we all know managers manage by what they read from magazines in the backs of airplane seats. Now if RH discovers this secret, makes linux 'sexy' and does a FUD job, the story will be different in a few years time. In fact I see the copy 'No more headaches - VP gives 2000 the heave ho'.
--
Industrial space for lease in Flatlandia.
Ya!
Debian Forever
I wish someone would release a "Purple Red Hat" distro from any country in the free world (ie. not Russia, Iran, USA, China ...) which was the latest RedHat with all the crypto stuff (SSH, PGP/GPG, etc). They could even contribute a few dollars to RedHat for each CD sold too keep everyone happy.
RFC1925
Torvalds and Stallman dont do what they do for monetary reasons. The only people who code Linux for money come from commecial distro's. I personally think Mandrake(soft) is a parasite to Red Hat's investment in free code and I wont use it. More for philosophical reasons than technical reasons.
Ah hell. We'll have the 'Microsoft Linux Distro' next.
You ignored the original point, that this is exactly what Red Hat is. Mandrake is Red Hat + KDE + some fine tuning. Red Hat is GNU/Linux + an install program + some fine tuning.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
It's -Sydney-.... not Sidney. Get off yer Linux box and do some geography.
The problem is that most people don't know it's available for free. Most of those that do wouldn't know how to get it anyway.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
That, and the documentation. The Mandrake one (from Macmillian anyway) comes with three linux books on CD... woo.
The Poet-Warrior From Planet X
is terrified - of the opposite sex!
Radical! Radical!
R-R-R-R-Radical!
He's been to other galaxies, he's conquered the moon
but his mommy can't get him to clean his room!
Radical! Radical!
R-R
R-R
R-R
R-R Radical!
etc. go from there.
I have tried both RH6 and Mandrake 6 and I see Mandrake as a bug fix for RedHat. They make the RedHat distro work better, and if you ever check out their site they are working on some nice software. All this and extra software that doesnt come with a basic Redhat distro.... well whats wrong with that!?
people are talking like mandrake could bury or at least knock redhat down a notch or too. is it just me or is that sort of a paradox?
I just but my competitor under, but he was also my supplier, so I guess I fold too.
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -- Homer Simpson
i586 optimized means it doesn't run on older hardware, and runs slightly slower on Pentium & above systems.
Don't believe me? Benchmark it for yourself.
Dear GrammarCorrector, You are a moron. As the de facto grammar police on slashdot, you may take it upon yourself to belittle other people. however, please do not fall into the following punctuation pit:
... was "deap". ...
... was "deap." ...
the correct form is
thank you for your cooperation, you fucking idiot.
> All packages and core components have
> been recompiled with CPU optimizations
> for all Pentium-class processors
> (Pentium, Pentium II, Pentium III,
> Celeron, AMD K6/K6-2, Cyrix 6x86,
> Cyrix MII, etc...). This allows 5 to
> 30% of speed gain to your system!
what about the optimization stuff?
has anyone noticed the difference?
Imagine a compagny that improve and sell an "improved version of Microsoft Windows". That will bring a huge competition and will benefit to users.
Suse, Caldera are more like Apple versus Microsoft trying to bring a completly different Linux version which is not binary compatible. 80-90% of Linux users use only Redhat or Redhat based distro and it will be hard to change for them. Switch to another distro need energy. Hope that the LSB will open more the competition.
Real hackers don't write disk partitioning programs in Perl.
Real hackers don't fork open-source projects.
Mandrake does both.
How much faster is it?
I am sitting here pondering if this is good or
bad for Linux.
The strength of Open Source is simple, you have
the collective strengths of many, working on the
few projects that make it through the survival
of the fittest.
Basically a group of individuals downloaded
RedHat, added KDE and gave it a new name. Any
arguements to this, just read their concepts page
on their site. Later we read, the Press Release
on some new utilities, whereas they are downplay-
ing their connection to RedHat stating "RedHat
compatible". They are trying to distance them-
selves from RedHat, and become more of their
"own", a necessary marketing move.
I fear this concept will start a trend of individuals downloading various distro's and trying to make a profit.
With the LinuxExpo awarded for Best Distro, and
this commercial backing, this only legitimizes
this concept.
This will cause a large amount of developer re-
sources to be focused on creating an individual
distribution, as opposed to killer apps. Sooner
or later, these distributions will HAVE TO insert
proprietary software in, to make their distribu-
tion the one people will buy.
I don't know I see some good, but I fear the bad
may outweigh all of it.
Awesome!
Read the GPL. Understand it. Realise that their can be *NO* theft of code or of customers (anyway kidnapping is an offense). Actually this makes a great deal of sense for RH since the mandrake folks are working for RH without any money changes hands - I'd call it ideal. Please don't "tell" us such silly ramblings - keep it to yourself - you know the old saying:- "if people think you a fool, keep your mouth shut, lest you remove all doubt!"
Mandrake is a ripoff, con job. Make your own distribution like suse and compete on merits. PEOPLE SEE TROUGH CON MEN. YOU CAN FOOL SOME, BUT NOT ALL
You are correct. And I... erhem... stand corrected. It's unfortunate that you considered my post an attack. It was intended only to be a correction. And I'm sure you'll be happy to know that I didn't take your post as an attack, except the part where you called me a fucking idiot. :) I am a moron, however.
Good Day, and please ignore my sig on this post.
-- This message is not intended to 'flame' anybody. I'm simply trying to fix up some of the bad grammar I find on the
A lot of people get rich. Software gets free. And true competition to one-up does for the quality of distributions what RedHat, with it's drift towards monopoly attitude over the last couple years, would have never accomplished.
[BTW, does the Create Account option ever work here? Even giving it totally odd user id's, and valid e-mail addresses I've never fed it before (I've got a million of 'em that all feed to me), it either stalls out or tells me vaguely that it doesn't like either the id or the email - not even smart enough to say which - and never sends me a password. I presume some brain dead security paranoid has set a test routine that looks for something irrevelant, like it doesn't like a dial-in Linux machine that thinks it's the domain at which I receive most mail rather than the name of the PPP connection ... or??]
I have no problem with Mandrake. In fact it's currently my distribution of choice. Redhat is a packager of linux software, so is Mandrake. Redhat contributes to free software, so does Mandrake. Mandrake borrows Redhat's contributions, Redhat borrows Mandrake's. The difference is that Mandrake takes a bit of time to debug the distribution, while Redhat has been notoriously bad at doing this.
For all the hard work Mandrakesoft has done, Torvalds and Stallman have had to done approximately an equal amount, and they should share in the fruits of incorporation, along with every other programmer whose code they use.
In the absense of some kind of ethics, of inclusion and sharing, where the new "easy" financial wealth is shared with those who created the actual hard-code physical wealth, some portion of the coder-producers who support this community will have to become demoralized. I mean, fair has to be fair for any community to survive. Absent that, the organized and coordinated growth of linux and gcc stands to be undermined in the long term by this simple change in community ethics, from contribution and inclusion to greed and exclusion.
Did Bob Young charge Torvalds and Stallman $14 a share for the use of their code?
>The problem is that most people don't know it's
>available for free. Most of those that do
>wouldn't know how to get it anyway.
This is true, talked to my younger brother the other day (he is still in school). He was talking to a group of guys who were trying to get enough money to go in on a store copy of Red Hat 6.0. They were amazed to learn that he already had a copy (I burned it for him right after it was released), and that we would make copies for them. He has now taken to selling copies of it for $5 to these people. (wish I had made money that way in school)
-chris (gandalf@darkcorner.net)
If linux grows faster than the 25-hours-a-day ability of Stallman and Torvalds and crew to keep up with it, control slips out of their hands and into the hands of ... god forbid ... a wall-street nominee like ...
At some point, the community has to figure out a way to support these two central operations financially, and it seems that the community could put pressure on any incorporators to include contributors at the originating incorporation level (as opposed to "including" them at the wholesale-"ipo" or the retail-"aftermarket" levels.)
In the case of RH, cutting Torvalds and Stallman in at the incorporator's or isser's level, for even only 5% of what Bob Young kept aside for himself, would not have hurt RH in the least or diluted their stock. These central operations are going to need some source of funds to maintain the code. The option is a Darwinian morality (whichever insider is granted actual power to print and sell stock certificates on wall street is the morally superior party and therefore should be the one to maintain and control the core areas of the huge body of code, and ultimately the oss struggle which depends upon it).
How about we have the french bomb your house instead?
Mandrake sucks! I am sorry, RedHat is a newbie distro (nothing wrong with that), and Mandrake is aimed at the same market, but is getting people because of it's price. I have had the worst trouble with Mandrake and I have a lot of experience with Linux (6 distros and over 100 installs). I think that Mandrake is bad for the linux community becasue it is luring in people with the price, and then giving them shit. If they had a quality distro, then I could understand, but Mandrake is shit. What RedHat should do is create a distro aimed at first timers (most people dont say, "Hey, lets go spend 80$ on something, that we've never used before, and that is not the status quo of computing"), that is cheap (no technical service, no special packages included....), 10$ or so. Mandrake sucks my ass and it is driving "would be users" away from linux.
Unsubstained claims? The only thing I claim is my own thoughts on the subject. I do not claim that Mandrake are bad-guys. I claim that I >thinkI dislike.
*sigh*
Why is it one cant post a thought on Slashdot without being called an idiot? I have no problem with people telling me I am wrong if they tell me why, but this?
I guess more can not be expected. It seems most people are confusing Free Software with Free Beer.
The GPL, as pointed out several times in this thread, does indeed encourage people to share. That RedHat has done this is good, very good. My point was not that Mandrake should not be allowed to do so.
I have released really silly, and very simple CGI-scripts completely free. Not GPLed since I really dont care if anyone uses the code and doesnt credit me (they are simply too simple to care), and I enjoy the feeling that gives me. That someone may perhaps have been helped by it. I enjoy being able to find free code someone else has written and learn from it. But I would never do what Mandrake is doing. Taking a complete product, put a sticker on and sell it, thereby taking the business (and thereby the motivation of the original coder away) away from whoever wrote it.
End of discussion. End of thread. For me that is. I am sure there will be a few more you-are-an-idiot-posts. I am just through answering them.
The I guess RedHat should be worried because Mandrake just won a Server OS award at the Linux Conference.
Most people don't know it's available for free today. This is because open-source software on the store shelves is a relatively new phenomenon; the ignorance won't last. Tomorrow is going to be a new ballgame.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I guess having at least the priviledge to use a T-1 has it's advantages.
The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of a million is a statistic --Joseph Stalin
Jeepers..
Does this seem like a way to challenge Red Hat's
business strategy.. or just rich people having fun??
pan
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
It isn't a zero sum game, folks. If Mandrake is successful, this will likely increase the number of users of Linux in general, and attract more developers, possibly resulting in a net increase of *each* distribution.
- Sam Ruby
and why am I in this hand basket?? Does anybody else think that this is a beginning of the end of an era...from here on out, will it be the free guys and the commercial guys?
Should it really matter...so long as it's linux and stable and controlled by the philosophy of "You'll get it when it's ready, dammit"? Do you think this tried and true free software development model will work with all of the commercialization that is sure to follow?
We shall see, we shall see
Am I the only one that think that what Mandrake is doing is really, really bad? Their distro may be very good, or it may be really bad. I dont know since I havent tried it.
But I will NEVER give a cent to Mandrake. I feel, and very strongly at that, that "taking" RedHat and change it around a little and sell it, thereby "stealing" customers from RedHat, just because RedHat is really nice and has released their install under the GPL.
I am very happy RedHat has done this, and I am equally happy about dists based upon RedHat that are FREE (as in debian-free). They bring quality competition.
Oh well. I just think that what they are doing sucks. If they succeed and become the nr 1 dist, thereby bringing RedHat down, they wont have a dist anymore. Shame on them.
Please dont take this as flamebait. Its just that I had to "tell" someone.
Hopefully when we have all these major, popular, easy to install distros ( Corel, Mandrake, Redhat ) it will encourage compatibility between all distros and prevent any one company from having too much control over "Linux".
I'm looking forward to the Corel distribution myself. Hopefully, the beta version of their distro will be easily available and not restricted to a few beta testers. It'll be time for me to finally take another run at linux and try installing it on my P2-400 128Mb. I like the looks of KDE too.
It gets more interesting by the day.
The final victory will come when Microsoft starts to release software for Linux, that will be their white flag surrender.
This goes to show what I had hoped some of my co-workers would see all along: There's a different tool for every job, and a different distribution of linux for (almost) every purpose under the sun. Glad to see a 'new' dist with a reputation for user-friendly is getting some of the monetary interest lately.
I do suppose that since RH is trying to include KDE into things now that we have an unusual situation: A value-added reseller being repackaged by a value-added reseller. I do hope their Lothar project gets some of that cash!
Check my Go-related blog for beginners: DGD
I don't think the technical merits of distros will falter or stray much...the distros are getting most of their software via GPL. What I'm worried about is distro's slinging mud at each other in the media. Gates proved that it doesn't matter how good your product is as long as you make your market THINK it's the best (or only) way to go. If we have n commercial linux companies bad mouthing the other guy's product...when it's all linux anyway, then are they all bad mouthing linux in the eyes of the otherwise clueless newbie?
"don't use distribution X...they're still using kernel x.x.x" what does this say about the kernel in general in the public's eye?
"Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
DEBIAN FOREVER! da kow
Dum dum dum....... Why does this not suprise me?
ahhh isnt mandrake linux heavily based on redhats version of linux? consiracy theorists unite, i say its a scam to get redhat more capitol, mandrake and redhat are in bed together. :) oh and AXA is a lil to close to AXIS for my liking :)
Wha?
Mandrake sells itself as "Redhat +". It's pretty much just redhat + KDE (and I'm sure some other differences and improvements).
Granted this may change but given that Mandrake's strength is "improving on RedHat" there'll be precious little fragmentation as a result of this deal.
"Oh, I hope he doesn't give us halyatchkies," said Heinrich.
RedHat on their recent tour though here was asked about how they felt about linux-mandrake. Their response was that they wished them all the luck in the world, to no surprise. RedHat has a stated goal of targeting a more business centered market, going after a higher sell corporate arena, as well as servers and enterprise iron.
Mandrake, by contrast, wants to be 'your mothers distro' and isn't really shooting for wide deployment by the PHB's. Not only that, but they use the RH way to do it. As everyone's favorite Redmond company has shown, there is value in people following your lead and allowing you to set the standard, your particular way of doing things, as the common standard. Redhat wants the home user doing Mandrake so that those users are comfortable with the version they may use at work.
Calmness. All is calmness and tranquility. We are not a business. We are a community. And we are each helped by the contributions of our members. That is our nature.
Check my Go-related blog for beginners: DGD
With GPL there is no 'steal' only 'share'.
I'm sick and tired of reading that linux-mandrake
have stolen from Redhat.
GPL is an invitation to share, with the condition that the sharing goes both ways.
Claiming that Redhat's works has been stolen is show a complete lack of understanding of the GPL. If Redhat didn't want threir work to be shared with others they wouldn't have released it under the GPL. Since Mandrake's innovations are also GPL'd Redhat is free to share them also.
Deap in the heart of a nameless American investor's firm the following conversation was recorded by Agent 000 of British Intelligence. The message was sent across the world through the Echelon network, and picked up by my tranceiver in Sidney, Australia. Many an agent risked his life to bring this message to slashdot, so enjoy!
"Oh my f'ing lord, Larry, look at that."
"Uhhh, yeah Bill?"
"Ya know that Linux thingie we invested in?"
"Yeah, I remember that. It had a stupid name, Red Cap or something"
"Well I just read here that this other company , Mandrakesoft, is being invested in by this Axa joint"
"Uhh, so?"
"Uhh, so! This Mandrakesoft stole Linux from the Red Hat people, and you wouldn't beleive this . ."
"What Bill?"
"Them danm bastard Red Hat people LET them steal it, they practically gave it away, if what I'm reading here is true!"
"That's kinda sucky isn't it?"
"Hell it's sucky! I'm pulling all my money from those bastards, before ya know it, they'll be giving their product away for free!"
"Well, if ya think it's a good idea Bill, I'll do it too"
"Them danm crazy's if ya ask me. I meen that's no way to run a business"
Joe Average browsing through CompUSA happens upon the linux aisle intent on buying "linux". There are 2 boxes, Redhat Linux for $70 and Mandrake for $10. Which one will he buy?
You seem to be forgetting that Mandrake has a developement version of their distro - "Cooker". This is a work in progress towards their next distro. Much like Rawhide. I personally believe that Mandrake and Redhat are starting to diverge from Redhat 6.0 - the next version of Mandrake will be much different. But of course - they're always going to snarf the best bits out of the next Redhat to add into their distro - but then Redhat can do the same.
Lothar, DiskDrake, Panoramix, KOffice funding the list goes on. How can anyone not love a company that puts it's own money into producing GPL'd software?
Isn't it based on Redhat also?
Pork is not a verb
The biggest problem with Linux is not what distro is used or what GUI is on top of X but the Kernel itself. This is what will really matter in the end. You can have a GUI that blows win* away but if your kernel can't support tons of hardware with auto configure then you will not get the market. I can't think of any PC hardware that win98/2000 can't use. I can't even come close to saying the same for the Linux kernel. Example: my damn SBLive sound card. (And developer.soundblaster.com does not have a driver with full support like the windows drivers do). This is where it really matters. Look at how poorly USB is coming along. Very slow. My ULTRA DMA hds are still not being used to the full performance level of the ULTRA DMA technology. I know that this will change but it's how long it will take is the issue.
Ask all the Red Hat bashers on here :P.
(For the record, I currently use RH 6.0 GPL, but plan to buy "Official" Mandrake sometime in the next 3 months).
It isn't Red Hat + KDE, Red Hat 6.0 already comes with KDE.
Troll? Try truth.
...and, since the Mandrake boxes I saw at Software Etc. last night said very clearly, "Mandrake RedHat Linux", I don't think RH has much to lose there, either. The more I think about it, the more I wish that the default RH install had most of the daemons and other services turned off, and something similar to the various RPM tools to turn them on later. I'm not that much of a unix sysadmin, and I can't help feeling that because I basically did a "install it all" install, that my system is full of holes. They should make it closed by default, and leave it to you to open it up as you learn more, perhaps thru lots of cheezy GUI 'wizards'...
Well, spelling is syntax, not grammar. Thank you.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
Intalled mandrake from the maxmillian distro. Not overly impressed. Too fond of enlightment to care about all the KDE stuff. Way disappointed that distro did not install support for NTFS. So I still need to recompile my kernel. SIGH. I guess the only perfect distro is the one you make yourself
Finally Mandrake is getting the attention and money he deserves.
BELG wrote:
Let's say you should pay for Mandrake's distribution. Would you be somehow supporting Mandrake's software contributions (GPLed) and at the same time *not* supporting Redhat (also GPLed, and thus able to take full advantage of Mandrake innovations)?
You say it's "crappy" that Mandrake should sell a distrib based on RH work, but as you can read in other posts and other places, Redhat is as much a reseller of previous works as any other Linux distributor. Both RH and Mandrake are paying full-time developers to improve their distributions as well. Each is free to fold back in (or reject as buggy, or as useless, or whyever
And also, as you can read in this same discussion, RH has publically expressed support for Mandrake, and I see no reason to doubt their sincerity, at least not for a few years (when competition might become closer between them.). Mandrake is expanding the Linux market by making installation of what-is-essentially-RH-6.0 easier; as market leader and brand name extra'ordinaire, Red hat probably stands to gain nearly 1-to-1 with Mandrake sales in the medium -term because people are trying / switching to and Mandrake is one big reason why.
So if RH doesn't think it's "crappy," (and they're the ones you're trying to support), then to what end do you dislike Mandrake so? RH doesn't, and they're the ones who ought to know about the good of RH.
I bet those guys would have / have had good parties together, and they deserve it, too.
Just a thought,
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
The RedHat people also said they appreciated that they were welcome to use Mandrake GPL additions in RedHat.
1000 SlashDot sigs
You are correct, the you-are-an-idiot posts are unnecessary. I do, however, have a different opinion about linux-mandrake. The people at MandrakeSoft have put in many person hours improving what RedHat has chosen to share. They have done *real* work, adding *real* value. If it were trivial to get pentium and K6 optimized software out while maintaining compatibility with RedHat (or just to do it at all!) RedHat would have offered both long ago. And then there are the other projects at Mandrake, like Lothar. To ignore their work is as dismissive as the you-are-an-idiot posts. I do not believe that Mandrake is draining RedHat's motivation. On the contrary, I believe that it prevents RedHat from getting lax, cocky, and resting on their laurels. It will keep RedHat motivated by excellence and not by $. RedHat makes money by selling other people's code bundled together in a way that makes it more useful or easier to setup/use. The majority of what RedHat sells was not written by them. The code that was written by RedHat is, thankfully, distributed under GPL (or similar license). By choosing to use the GPL on their new programs they were expressing a desire to be motivated by technical and quality issues and not by money. The fact that RedHat has been openly friendly towards Mandrake affirms that. If Mandrake can one-up RedHat on technical/quality issues - be they a better desktop setup, or better support for newer processors - then RedHat wants them to make those contributions. And they don't mind if Mandrake gets compensated for their improvements. When both organizations are motivated by technical/quality issues then there isn't a problem. When the redistributor is the only one motivated by money, then questions are raised. Since we are talking about selling what is mostly other people's generous gifts, if the the 'original' distrubutor is motivated by money then I have little sympathy for them. Fortunately, despite flaws on both sides, both sides are above that.
You are correct, the you-are-an-idiot posts are unnecessary. I do, however, have a different opinion about linux-mandrake.
The people at MandrakeSoft have put in many person hours improving what RedHat has chosen to share. They have done *real* work, adding *real* value. If it were trivial to get pentium and K6 optimized software out while maintaining compatibility with RedHat (or just to do it at all!) RedHat would have offered both long ago. And then there are the other projects at Mandrake, like Lothar. To ignore their work is as dismissive as the you-are-an-idiot posts.
I do not believe that Mandrake is draining RedHat's motivation. On the contrary, I believe that it prevents RedHat from getting lax, cocky, and resting on their laurels. It will keep RedHat motivated by excellence and not by $.
RedHat makes money by selling other people's code bundled together in a way that makes it more useful or easier to setup/use. The majority of what RedHat sells was not written by them. The code that was written by RedHat is, thankfully, distributed under GPL (or similar license). By choosing to use the GPL on their new programs they were expressing a desire to be motivated by technical and quality issues and not by money. The fact that RedHat has been openly friendly towards Mandrake affirms that.
If Mandrake can one-up RedHat on technical/quality issues - be they a better desktop setup, or better support for newer processors - then RedHat wants them to make those contributions. And they don't mind if Mandrake gets compensated for their improvements.
When both organizations are motivated by technical/quality issues then there isn't a problem. When the redistributor is the only one motivated by money, then questions are raised. Since we are talking about selling what is mostly other people's generous gifts, if the the 'original' distrubutor is motivated by money then I have little sympathy for them. Fortunately, despite flaws on both sides, both sides are above that.
come to think of it... I have had trouble compiling a kernel on my system, something always seems to go wrong, so I usually just use the RPM kernels... And after installing a newer Redhat kernel, I did notice a lot of speed decrease compared to the original Mandrake install. Does Redhat even provide a kernel for 6x86? (please don't hate me because my computer sucks)
Back in The Day(tm) (actually before I really started using Linux at all...) there was the SLS distro, which served largely as a basis for Patrick V. to come out with Slackware. The guy who started SLS whined about how Pat got the glory for taking his distro and adding some scripts (and IMO fixing it up quite a bit) and calling it a different name. Of course, the fact that SLS never really got fixed/updated made it irrelevant in the 1.0.x kernel era.
And now, ppl are using other distros than Slackware, oft because of their new features (such as more sophisticated packaging systems)
The moral of the story: In the Linux distro community, evolve or become irrelevant. If Red Hat falls behind the curve so to speak others such as Mandrake will pick up the slack and take over.
Yes, it is based on Redhat because Redhat allows anybody to copy their stuff. So this makes Redhat bad? How stupid can anybody be?
In all seriousness, though, I'm sure the GPL came up once or twice in the boardrooms.
"Oh, I hope he doesn't give us halyatchkies," said Heinrich.
Mandrake doesn't only "change it around a little bit". They bring new project such as Lothar, Panoramix, Diskdrake, Lin4Win, etc.
"Am I alone? by BELG on Tuesday August 24, @07:12PM EDT (#) (User Info) Am I the only one that think that what Mandrake is doing is really, really bad? Their distro may be very good, or it may be really bad. I dont know since I havent tried it. But I will NEVER give a cent to Mandrake. I feel, and very strongly at that, that "taking" RedHat and change it around a little and sell it, thereby "stealing" customers from RedHat, just because RedHat is really nice and has released their install under the GPL.
"I am very happy RedHat has done this, and I am equally happy about dists based upon RedHat that are FREE (as in debian-free)"
I don't understand your problem. Mandrake is fully FREE & GPLed and RH can easily get back Mandrake improvement & development
By the way: _2_ posts related to Linux-Mandrake today on Slashdot! :) I think their own logo now!
... and the guys at MandrakeSoft are very cool: Chmouel, Pixel... real hackers! By the way, do you know when Cooker will be frozen?
Pardon me while I scream...
AAARRRRRGH!!!!
...okay now, where was I? Oh yeah, please go read the Debian social contract. Then go read the GPL. Then go read the collected essays of Richard Stallman. Then go look up the interviews of Bob Young. If after this, you still feel that Mandrake is stealing Redhat, then stop bogarting that doobie and pass it around.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Anonymous Coward said:
It's -Sydney-.... not Sidney. Get off yer Linux box and do some geography.
I reply (in my big I know everything voice):
Okay, man! You got me, but not in the way you thought you did. I accidently wrote Australia, instead of Ohio. Yes, I meant the grand old city of Sidney, Ohio USA. You see, this Sidney place is kind of a hub for the Echelon network, and so the perfect place to spy in on it. I guess the message my spies came across this morning, about how all the Australians are really aliens, was still on my mind. Sorry!
By the way, I didn't even have to get off my Linux box to find that out! Neiner Neiner!
Mandrake IMHO is much nicer than RH6.0. I bought (using others money) RH6.0 for the Corporate Cred it brings with it. I pretty much could not stand it from the get go and got more and more dissapointed as time wore on. Though redhat looked good to the bosses, so it made linux an easier sell.
Me, I have not been a redhat user since some 4 version- I could not stand the installer, but I got curious about this RedHat fixed Mandrake distro and downloaded and installed it at home. It is real nice, they seem cool (for redhat types *wink*) and they aren't worth 5.3 billion dollars for using someone elses software.
IMHO, if you are gonna play the game that RedHat is playing, which is betting the bank on free software, you have to be willing to play by the rules(of the license), which is if mandrake, you or I wish to repackage and sell the work as our own, that is our choice, unless we infringe on something not protected by the license.
I am just glad that Mandrake is improving the product.
IMHO Mandrake is more than just another Redhat distribution. Sure they use the same package management, but how it is put together, tested, optimized, and cleaned up speaks alot about how a company cares for their product. I switched from Redhat when I heard they merged BeroLinux in with Mandrake 6.0. This is the distribution to get if you have an AMD,Cyrix processor. Keep up the good work MandrakeSoft , can't wait for KDE2.0.
heh... and the consolidation begins... Mandrake IS Redhat.
hehehehehehehehehe
As of RH6.0, RedHat still calls their version of Linux a server OS. Mandrake adds some customization that makes their version attractive to many people who aren't running servers and find much of Linux configuration daunting. So Mandrake sells to some people that RedHat would have sold to, and also some people who've been waiting to hear that there's an easier Linux for them.
Supply, I'd like you to meet an old chum: demand.
Their software is GPL'd. Anyone can take it and re-sell it for as much money as they can get for it. Instead of taking customers away from Red Hat, Mandrake is increasing the total number of Linux users. You don't understand the philosophy behing the GPL. Everyone contributes what he or she can and in return, everyone gets to use the code that everyone else has contributed. Besides, you can download the complete Mandrake CD in ISO format for FREE!!!!!!
The first word in your message was "deap". I was not made aware of this word's creation. I can only assume, based on the remainder of your post, that you do speak English. The word you should have used is "deep". Thank you.
-- This message is not intended to 'flame' anybody. I'm simply trying to fix up some of the bad grammar I find on the
But I will NEVER give a cent to Mandrake. I feel, and very strongly at that, that "taking" RedHat and change it around a little and sell it, thereby "stealing" customers from RedHat, just because RedHat is really nice and has released their install under the GPL.
Why is what Mandrake doing to RedHat any different than what RedHat is doing to Linux kernel/GNU stuff/etc.?
*sniff* *sniff*... I can smell the money...it's in the air. Everyone's rushing to get a bit, and now more and more people are joining the race.
So soon there'll be the guys who still cut code for passion, and those that are forced to cut code to protect the market share, the customer base and the shareholder's interests. Linux has always been updated and released when the new features are ready, and never pressured to get it out the door. What happens now that there will be all these big guns backing it up??
Prepare to feel the force of the corporates. This could get very ugly from here. We want Linux to succeed and gain attention, however I feel this could be the wrong kind of attention. Hold on to your butts.
this is a common tactic, but it probably wouldn't be good for our purposes. More competition is good, and more distro's that have monetary motivation to value-add is even better.
darkharlequin