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Mozilla M9 Released
_m writes "The boyos at mozilla.org have dropped mozilla M9 and, from looking at the m10 nightly releases, it looks really promising. Go out and support your local developer. Still some small problems, but it looks like quite a lot of the important things have been sorted. Go alt tags! "
Yo, duh -- install glib 2.1 *in addition to* your current libraries. You can have more than one C library, y'know...
[
Just downloaded M9 at work and rushed home (no, I don't really have much of a life) to install it. First impressions, starting with the bad...
:)
BAD: Dammit, it's still basically brings my machine to a halt when I run this thing on Linux. Just running the mouse over the slashdot navigation to the left can bring my system up to 80% load. I know this is still alpha, but on the same machine in Windows 98 (with M8) this was not a problem. No one else seems to be complaining about this. Is it just me? I have a PII450 with 128 Meg of RAM...
GOOD: Lots of Javascript fixes, including a bug I submitted that was marked as a "won't fix - as designed".
REALLY COOL: It uses my Gnome widget themes! For some unknown reason, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside because of this
I have to say to all the Mozilla coders out there that as a user of your product(s) and a web developer please keep up the great work! If any of you ever come to Boise, ID I will personally buy you a round at a local pub!
David
error: method `~` of object `~` failed
Actual Microsoft Error Message
Seeing at what stage?? Remember, Mozilla's first beta is expected to be M11, so this isn't even beta quality! That should be the first feature-complete version. Then much attention will be focused on corrections than additions.
Your average user couldn't care less what standards mozilla suported. As long as they have a fast browser that lets them check their hotmail accounts and look at pr0n they are happy. Sticking to standards isn't going to gain much support. They must have a very good finished product and bundle it with everything like MS did.
hehe.. not to be rude, but there was a contest on mozilazine.org and mozilla.org to create that icon.. you should have voiced your opinion back then
Incidentally, this is off-topic, but why on earth does Qt in its Win95-lookalike mode replicate Windows' horrendous behaviour with dragging scrollbars (move the pointer more than 50-odd pixels away from the scrollbar while dragging it and it pops back to its previous position)? (Fortunately it doesn't do this in Motif mode.)
"I want to use software that doesn't suck." - ESR
"All software that isn't free sucks." - RMS
I have a cable modem and I find it's a big time saver. Nothing against /. but it can be disgustingly slow at times. I really love though, how in unix clicking w/ the middle mouse button is the same as right click->open in new window. God I miss that at work...
-matt
I feel sorry for all you linux whiners out there. M9 Works great on my RedHat 6 box, and my windows 98 SE box..
The last thing you should bitch about is upgrading to libc 2-1, come on people.. get with the times.. internet explorer requires 40-50 meg updates almost each time you upgrade.
The new netscape is a web and application framework. MUCH more powerfull and standard then internet explorer is and will be anytime in the near future.
SO far all you people complaing about segfaults, standardize your system, get with the times. do a lil homework, solve your problems.
Meanwhile, my code updates, my bugzilla notes and my fine running browser and working, and i'm developing websites around the technology based in mozilla..
And.... we have form widgets! And they don't even jump out of the way when I click on them! Woohoo! Mozilla has just joined the ranks of usable web browsers... On the other hand, apprunner doesn't want to work... it crashes silently at the end of its startup spiel. viewer works fine, though. I'm okay with that... I don't need all the junk they packed into apprunner anyway. I've already got a mail client and a newsreader... I just want a good, solid, standards-compliant web browser... This post finely hand-crafted using Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686).
I have a Slink/Potato system, updated with glibc2.1 so I could run the new Gnome stuff. Mozilla works for me, and I use my computer to get work done everyday.
Somewhere in the KFM settings there is an option for "change pointer over links" or something along those lines. I can't check exactly where it is right now because I'm at work in nt*blech*4 but the options aren't that extensive.
-matt
It is really fast... Impressive since it does not even have a cache (memory or disk) !
Just as a heads up, in the last two weeks or so, the CVS tree has not been able to build for me on any RedHat 5.2 system -- the only functioning builds I've gotten are on RedHat 6.0 systems, so downloading the source may not help you.
:)
The configure crap makes a LOT of assumptions right now, and doesn't actually know what library versions it actually needs, so its often times a real bitch to figure out what everyone at Mozilla seems to have upgraded on their systems that you haven't.
Updating imlib, gtk+ and gdk don't seem to have fixed the problem when I upgraded those yesterday (and promptly broke Gnome...), although the problem seems to come from imlib.
There are often wierd problems running with older system libraries, and things like that.
If you're going to delve into the dark and mysterious world of Mozilla building, here's a couple tips:
1) Run the most recent versions of everything. If that means upgrading to RedHat 6.0, you're probably going to have to do it. They're having similar issues supporting VC++ 5 and 6 under Windows, and the growing trend is build with the newest, and fix it later...
2) The client.mk script, and makefiles aren't very reliable. If you keep blowing core, and aren't seeing lots of other reports about it (and tinderbox is green), blow away the tree, and repull a new copy. Dependancies don't work all the time, nor does make clean, and that seems to be the only reliable way to fix it. Sucks over a modem, huh? I'm suspecting that may be the problem here...
3) Sort of restating #1, but if you're running a stock RedHat 5.2, upgrade your glibc unless you've got a pile of ram. There's some issue with loading libraries multiple times that chows down LOTS of RAM on a stock 5.2 system.
4) When gdb asks you if you want to load all the symbols, *SAY NO* if you don't have a quarter gig of RAM or something. Trust me on this one.
They both show so much promise! KFM is all you say
but I have never been able to get it to accept a
cookie-that blows email on the Web.Mozilla has great potential but alas lags sooo far behind the Winbloat/Netscape pair.Looks like I'll bite the bullet and shell out $35.00 for Opera...if that ever comes to pass.
Tired of being another body in the flock? Linux ! We are not sheep anymore.
Red looks good on you!:)
No, that's Microsoft. From the above posts, it seems "shared" libraries on MS platforms have a fixed base address, set at build time. So you can "share" all you want... until some two DLLs you need decide they want the same piece of virtual address space. Then all hell breaks loose.
At least this is my impression from reading the above. I don't touch MS stuff, so I wouldn't know, really.
[
Hooray! It actually runs!
Mozilla is certainly look good - however, it still doesn't want to use our http proxy server like wot I am compelled to use. The autoproxy option doesn't work (I dunno if we even have javascript yet), but worse, the manual proxy configuration simply isn't hooked up.
Which means I can see my own web page (gee!), but I can't give it a workout with real surfing.
Is this on the cards for m10?
-- Post No Gravy
If two dlls with the same (or overlapping) base address are loaded the the later one will rebase itself. You take a (slight) performance hit while the things are remapped.
Uhm, are you using the latest version? I don't have any problem with cookies at all. In fact I've always liked its cookie management. Check your cookie settings, make sure you don't have a blanket deny in there somewhere.
Definitely! Let's have the first Slashdot marriage! Go, go, go, go!
Please, NO JAVASCRIPT IN LYNX! I use Lynx to get out of those javascript sideshows all crappy websites put up nowadays... (Plus, lynx makes my 28.8 faster than the T1 at work with netscape). :-) Long live ConSole!
Of course not many people *USE* any of the
current development releases. They are for
testing and reporting of bugs. If you don't
want to test and report (at least one) bug,
don't bother downloading the release. Just
wait until someone comes along on slashdot and
says, "OK folks, Mozilla 1.0 is available!"
On the other hand, if you want that day to
arrive sooner rather than later, you'll go
download the latest release and do your duty.
-WW
--
Why are there so many Unix-using Star Trek fans?
When was the last time Picard said, "Computer, bring
So, then the windows DLLs *are* position independent, no? Which brings us back to the first question -- why are the linux binaries larger, and do symbol tables have *anything* to do with it?
[
Head on over to www.mozilla.org and read the damned thing yourself. I remember a day when people actually actively searched for information rather than expecting to have it handed over to them on a silver platter.
-matt
One improvement.. The size of the binaries for Linux have been reduced to a level much closer to the other platforms.
Why are the Linux binaries still larger than the others? Does anyone know?
So it os not worth discussing the kind of competition Mozilla is up against? So it is not worth discussing how a open source project deals with the marketshare issues (even if the answer is not to deal at all)? Or how standards compliance affects the public perception, in contrast with bells and whistles?
And just as a sidenote, I knew this issue could be understood as a provocation, so I tried to write it so as NOT to sound as one. It seems that I failed.
I just got 8.5 ("PRE-NECKO") two nights ago. I wanted a "post-necko" release, but I couldn't get the nightly builds to work.
Oh well, I have a few days of vacation so I guess I can spare the dl time.
---
Put Hemos through English 101!
"An armed society is a polite society" -- Robert Heinlein
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
FTP install at 56k is not going to be any fun. Try getting a $2 RH6 cdrom delivered. I got mine at cheapbytes.com; you will pay more in postage to NZ than the disk costs, but it will be the easiest thing.
I know everyone loves getting the milestones, but the project could always use a few helping hands for stuff like QA (general bugfinding), development or even just suggestions.
;)
:)
Take a look at bugzilla (bugzilla.mozilla.org) and get an account there. Browse the bugs to see what the report looks like and see if you can submit an original bug, make a test case for an existing one or whatnot. We're all going to be using this browser in the end, so you may as well have some say in how it turns out.
Enjoy M9!
æeee!
Last time I tryed KFM it sucked. It needs alota work on it.
/dev in it lol.
What really bugs me about KDE is the way it uses Html rendering to view files in the file manager / browser. Try opening
They explain that Mozilla is unstable with glibc 2.0x due to a bug in these releases of glibc. (glibc 2.1 fixed a couple of bugs in some of my heavily threaded programs)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
YEAH!, lets put Javascipt in that old thing! Hey, why not JAVA as well!!! Hmm, why don't we get it to show Jpegs!! Gosh, while we at it we might as well make it into a full replacement for Mozilla, Emacs, Gnome and kzip!!!
This will be KEWL!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But M9 is built against some Gnome libs that I don't have:
$ ldd viewer | grep "not found"
libgtk-1.2.so.0 => not found
libgdk-1.2.so.0 => not found
libgmodule-1.2.so.0 => not found
libglib-1.2.so.0 => not found
libstdc++-libc6.1-1.so.2 => not found
Also. 'nsinstall' dumps core
Core was generated by `./nsinstall'.
Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault.
find_solib: Can't read pathname for load map: Input/output error
#0 0x0 in ?? ()
fwiw, dude, win95 can run a nameserver ;)
Does Mozilla support frames correctly yet? Last time I tryed out Mozilla (not long ago) it couldn't render (standard, not those new fangled inline things) frames correctly at all (I am talking about NORESIZE here etc, etc.)
It was the result of a contest. The contest directors failed to enforce the constraint that the icon needed to fit within the mozilla color limitations. A vote was taken, and the winner looked *awful* when rendered in mozilla. I submitted a color-fixed version that looked better, but pr'ly i didn't yell loud enough, 'cuz no one took it.
[
Can I just take this back? Seems the glibc 2.0 problems are due to linker/loader problems (from reading Bugzilla) and it seems that getting the 2.0 linker to co-exist with the 2.1 linker may not be easy...
[
I hear you. KFM kicks. It's fast, and doesn't drop out on me nearly as much. The memory/performance savings make me feel much better as well, especially when multiple people are using my machine.
There are a couple of things that bug me though. I *have* to drag-n-drop to save a link. I prefer the right-click-save-as myself. Having to continually move around windows to facilitate dnd has always drove me.
There are also those very rare times I need JavaScript. Even in Netscape I turn it off unless I need it. Great for avoiding those annoying popups certain sites force on you, specifically the free homepage sites.
Right-click-back is missing also. I hate having to go to that widget everytime I go back a page. Actually, I like having everything in Netscape's right-click menu, especially "open link in new window."
Pointer doesn't change over links. A small annoyance. I think I can live without that.
No SSL. I do a fair bit of online shopping. It was the reason I went out and got a VISA.
If it weren't for those things, I'd be using KFM right now.
I did try KDE 2 a little while back. Konqueror is *really* promising, although fairly unstable... Hmm, I think I'll try it again tonight.
I finally got around to looking at the Mozilla source and as expected it's enourmous. I've also looked around the mozilla site and I have to ask: Do the resources exist to allow outsiders to contribute to Mozilla?
Yes, I know that the source is available, but this is a huge object oriented project. Source code alone just doesn't cut it. Where are the models? Here, where I work there are information models, state transition diagrams, interface event documents, how can anybody be expected to dive into 19+ MB compressed of source code?
Am I mistaken, or is there virtually no information available that would allow someone outside of the project to figure it out without brute force reading all of the code?
Got to be <= 256 colors because it's an animated GIF. You can drop in your own in place of it, if you want.
Open in new window is the major command i use. try it. you never have to go back to the slashdot forum, you can just keep it open and open new windows for each thread. big big time saver for those of us in slow connections.
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
No BeOS binary for us BeOS users :P
It's coming along *very* nicely.
Beware IE.
...
Bitchslapped? Give Rob a bitchslap from bitchslapped.com.
It seems that many testers would need some form of good feedback which would make them believe they weren't wasting their time. Like lists of feature that need testing and which have been tested and which have how many bug reports already filed on them, etc.
There's not a complete and all-inclusive list to use as a guide to testing, but you might want to check out the Bugathon page, which offers some good guidance on areas where Mozilla testing is needed.
What's this about two thousand dollar compilers? Required? You must be kidding me. You need to fix your operating system first, then worry about building Mozilla.
--
Why is this flamebait? It seems pretty correct to me, and I'm running 2.3.15 24-7 on my home machine. Netscape is showing its age in a big way, Mozilla is far from catching up, IE5 works fine (dare I say that on /.?) KFM has some holes, but like cameldrv says, it's stable and going somewhere.
So, where's the flamebait?
Moderators, a post doesn't become flamebait or a troll just because you don't agree with it. If it's on-topic and contains valid opinions and/or information, try to hold back on the downmoderating.
Bwahahaha... I see you've never tried to manually upgrade a 2.0 system to a 2.1. I was a Stampede user before and had to suffer through their transition to 2.1. After upgrading to 2.1 I had to replace a significant number of packages (like 1/3 to 1/2 of the distro). If you have a 2.0 system now, it isn't worth the trouble of upgrading just to run Mozilla M9. Having both 2.0 and 2.1 libs on your system might not work either because of the buggy linker.
"When a simple program (in the order of hello world) takes 20 minutes to compile and results in a 1meg binary with some of the poorest code ever known to man generated, you have to start doubting the quality of the compiler."
:)
Why bother with such uninformed BS? Have you ever even been *near* a copy of VC++? Our project is now at 4.6 Megabytes of source code... It only takes 5-10 minutes to rebuild from clean. We're very happy with the code it produces. Ever heard of "Minimal Rebuild"? "Incremental Linking"? Or are you too busy hacking your makefile by hand?
As for "$2k+", you are way off. VC++6.0 Standard Edition (I can't imagine you would need more than this to build Mozilla) is about $110. Even if you buy the "Professional" version (better optimizer?), you're looking at not much more than $500. No, it's not free, but that's an argument for another day
If Microsoft need to be bashed, then so be it. Unfortunately, mindless, uninformed rants such as yours will inevitably drown out the voices of reason.
Andrew
I'm a professional web developer, and I can tell you that "standards" don't count for shit. 90% of my clients use IE exclusively now, so Netscape/Mozilla/whatever is essentially dead. I'm paid to write pages for IE, so now I use VBScript on the client, and client-side Active X controls. "Standards" are totally irrelevant.
Why are you even using a intreface to write web apps? What's the point? I can type cleaner code much faster than an IDE can write bad code and I can fix it. Visual Interdev is colored Notepad. Dreamweaver isn't much better. Code by hand for better code, faster.
Please don't bloat browsers by stupidly including an unnecessary DNS cache
I think it needs a buffer anyway. Maybe just for this session say. It can throw away anything that's in their when you quit. Say a hash table that you prune at 128 entries. This should take up about 10-20 KB max of memory. The code really would be trivial. I can imagine you could do it in 50-150 lines of code (assuming you already have a hash class). And it would really be a boon for a lot of different people, and I don't think it would hurt anyone. And if it does, just make it a configurable cache like the memory cache for netscrape.
I think I know :) It's because on Linux you're supposed to use shared libraries to make your code smaller, but because the shared libraries change so often, it's unsafe to release a big monster like Mozilla and hope it will somehow get lucky enough to have used NO obsolete, changed, recently broken library functions. So it winds up having to be statically linked, or using its own custom-compiled libraries. WP8 is like this too, and Netscape.
That sucks of course, but at least it means the program usually runs, and that doesn't suck. Getting it to work with real shared libraries is a kind of a final development phase thing and I really hope that it works out, because who need yet another bloated monster stomping its great big lizard feet all over their memory?
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
So I guess that would make the other half qt apps...
(What happened? I didn't mean to post... Grumble.)
Mozilla *still* doesn't understand multipart/x-mixed-replace as a MIME type. This has been around in Netscape since... Well, before 3.
And yes... I could try to find the problem and fix it, but enough other people have complained about this problem that I thought I'd be too late!
This
I don't like saying this at ALL, but if the Mozilla team only releases binaries for the current platforms they support in the future, they will have NO way of making it onto my system. I don't run Windows, I don't have a Mac, and I don't use glibc2.1. So why am I excluded? Come on, I thought it was supposed to work *better* than IE5, and if it is (I hate Windoze/IE btw) then why is it larger, more flickery, and just about as stable? I realize it's only M9, but that's supposed to be like a halfway point. When projects reach a halfway point, aren't they supposed to have either 1) some of the features that were promised (e.g., full XML capability, HTML-4.0 compliance, CSS support, speed, small size) or 2) all of the features, with lots of bugs?
I notice that with Mozilla, at least, it's halfway between. It has some of the features, and lots of bugs, with no real reason for me to download. I can use Lynx, I can use Netscape (the piece of sh*t that it is) and I can use the KFM or the Konqueror (which is MUCH more unstable, but it is SO SWEET it's not even funny); and when Opera comes out, I swear I'm gonna bite the bullet, pay the fee (and no source!!) and use a browser which works with all the neat features I need/want from the Net. Mozilla was promising, but I don't even really like the UI. Ah well, maybe I'm anti-GTK; I don't know. I guess that's probably it. Although, if it supports full GTK themes, I might take a look.... some of the themes are DAMN cool and it would be almost acceptable. I don't like the GTK as far as stability goes (which is our key hand against the Windows crowd; take it away and what have we got? Lots of useless source code for instable programs....) but it can sure look like one sexy bitch. Interesting times, eh?
I like to think of lynx as a bullshit filter. Is your site filled with artsy-fartsy animations and javascript fx? Then lynx will display it (if at all) as the vacuous, content-free waste of bandwidth it actually is. And it won't take all day to do it, either...
I've always found that a combination of visual and text based html editing works best. I use DreamWeaver and TextPad at home, and flick between when they are best for a specific task - DreamWeaver having that great "edit in external editor" function.
:-(
While I don't doubt or disrespect your html editing capabilities, I think that I could produce a graphically rich page (with image maps) faster with DreamWeaver + TextPad than you could with Vi(m)|(x)Emacs.
Of course, dw + textpad will never come out for Linux
PS. Some people want graphically rich pages, especially in our Intranet, therefore I will produce those pages for them. Text only and Image rich pages each have their place.
----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
May I suggest you get rid of those annoying moving dots. The way you have it written causes the overall size (height and width) of the site to be changing if the window is smaller than the area where you are moving the dots to. If you want to keep the dots, either find a way to keep the overall height & width fixed or dynamically adjust the boundaries of the dots to confine them to the visible area.
Aaah... Yeah. Your'e right. I generally don't do image maps, or graphically phat pages. I write apps, so they're all tables and forms. Very few graphics.
If you don't like something, you really can fix it without having to wade through reams and reams of mediocre eighties code.
Er, there's not really any of that "mediocre eighties code" left...
Berlin-- http://www.berlin-consortium.org
DNA just wants to be free...
[apprunner] crashes silently at the end of its startup spiel.
No, just the first time you run it, you actually run the installation wizard, which exits when it is done. When you start apprunner the next time (and all subsequent times), it will start up the browser.
Berlin-- http://www.berlin-consortium.org
DNA just wants to be free...
My morning so far:
And so it goes... . SNF .
Steve 'Nephtes' Freeland | Okay, so maybe I'm a tiny itty
wanna see a fine M9 crash ? .... :)
go to www.tristania.com
if you feel extremly bored make a testcase and submit the bug
waiting for M10
No, this is a crash, or, at least, a premature termination. It runs the installation wizard the first time through, then terminates. I was expecting that; I've seen that behaviour in older milestones. However, on the second and subsequent runs, it gets to the point in its startup process where it would normally open the browser window, and the program exits to the bash prompt without so much as a warning message. It never even opens any sort of X window. I went back and rmed my ~/.mozilla directory and let it go through the install process again, in case the old settings were confusing it somehow, with no luck.
;) )
M8 did the same thing to me... I think I skipped M7 for other reasons. M6 was the last one I had where apprunner worked.
That's the only serious bug I've run into with this version... I'm doing my browsing in the Mozilla viewer now, and it's working fine. And the form widgets work! (Can you tell I'm excited about that?
MICROS~1 could probably eliminate 3/4 of their stability issues if they could just learn this lesson, but it will never happen despite the fact that their quality is going down the toilet and disk space is as cheap as water (approaching 1 penny per megabyte).
I work at a company that adamantly refuses to include any kind of versioning in the DLL's it releases for in-house development, and I have been linking everything statically for quite a while. I figure I've saved the company thousands of dollars just for not having to spend a lot of time diagnosing mismatched DLL's.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
bomb allah president marx encryption revolution Newt Gingrich unabomber occult
Exactly what is the licensing agreement on Mozilla? That dude with the javascript shiznat says he'd contribute it but apparently Mozilla aint GPL'd?
How we know is more important than what we know.
Try upgrading just the glibc2.1 rpm. I think this should work and will let you use rh6 binaries. I think at least, anyone else tried this, is this all you need?
Scott-
< martin>
Stop drawing dinosaur pictures and get back to working on your thesis.
</martin>
C;)
-Felix
arvind rulez
Unfortunately not all web developers have the choice. My current project requires me use to MS InterDev {shudder}.
After checking that my hand 'coded' style sheet works under both IE and NS, I add it to my InterDev project. I then add a subclass - InterDev promptly screws up the style sheet (drops a trailing squiggly bracket) so that it doesn't work properly on Netscape. Of course, IE will still correctly parse the style sheet - apparently it is more 'forgiving'.
To add insult to injury, it actually displays correctly formed source within the IDE - but doesn't save it as such.
Let's not forget, having a standards compliant browser isn't going to be enough. Developers may want to support standards, but they might not have a choice as to whose. Market acceptance is what will win the day.
Face facts. IE is faster, has more features, and crashes less. Netscape is a piece of crap simply because Microsoft has spent more money on making IE a good product specifically to kill Netscape. Hate to say it folks, but that's what capitalism is all about. Microsoft made a better product and won with it. I don't have much faith in Mozilla ever catching up simply because Microsoft is comitted to having the best browser and AOL doesn't really care about the browser. Furthermore, the commitment to quality is not there at Netscape. They were raised on a culture of fast development without regard to bugs. Now they're developing slowly without regard to bugs. KFM may not have all the features of Netscape but at least it is somewhat stable and is going somewhere.
I'm just curious why won't bring up my website properly compared to Netscape 4.6. I'm presuming this is related to the dhtml. Remember, I'm a sysadmin not a designer so if this is obvious no flames please.
Pork is not a verb
No no no, Linux shared libraries use position independant code (PIC). This means it works wherever. Windows DLLs use position-dependant code. This means that if you get two DLLs that have the same base address (or overlap), one has to be automagically re-linked to use a different base address. The Linux way is less kludgy but the Windows way results in smaller libraries.
However, the major issue for Mozilla seems to be that the C++ code is producing excessively large symbol tables with gcc. I haven't been following this closely, so I may have the details wrong, but it seems a way has been found to get around this. I think this is only a disk space and download-time issue, and doesn't impact run-time memory consumption.
gcc doesn't produce very compact code at the best of times. Unfortunately, the gcc developers don't seem to consider this a priority.
fish and pipes
Any ideas? Should this be submitted to bugzilla?
that says a lot.. "What's the licensing agreement on french fries.." "oh.. that would be the french fries licensing agreement" .. care to say a few words about the licensing agreement.. like does it guareentee that all the contributions made to it will remain open source in future (or should we all contribute to AOL's web browser only to have them lock it up and say we can't look at it anymore in 2 years time?).
How we know is more important than what we know.
I don't know if it's my gtk theme or not (satinblack) but the menus don't show up properly, they just make painting errors and then if I click them again they show up. Weird. Anyone else experience this?
Now why the heck did that post get a score of "0, troll"??? It is NOT a troll post! It deserves at least 1!
You're just a bunch of crackpots, living in denial! screw you guys!
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
Laptop: Why the hell don't browsers cache DNS lookups? There's some kind of DNS locking going on that causes it to whiteout.
Please don't bloat browsers by stupidly including an unnecessary DNS cache.
At work I have a fast name server - no need.
At home I have a slow connection to the ISP's nameserver - so I run my own caching nameserver there. This speeds up not only the browser, but everything else that need DNS as well. (Yes - plenty of other stuff use DNS) No need for an
in-browser DNS cache.
If they have to do it in order to support lame os'es for which no standalone nameserver software exist - at least make the DNS cache a separate product so it may be avoided completely.
Apart from that, Mozilla has the advantage of being open source. The development of Explorer will probably resemble the way that Windows is developed: each release will take longer to reach final version. Remember that Explorer will have the same problem as Mozilla: it was developed under a lot of time-to-market pressure. Mozilla's developers have decided it was time for a code clean-up. Won't Microsoft have the same problem?
Posted by shaver@netscape.com:
Source that you have can never be taken back, even under the NPL, and you (and should!) contribute your own code under the MPL instead, of which the NPL is a superset. (The MPL is basically ``you must make your changes available'', at its core. It and the NPL both use ``file boundary'' to delineate license domains, so you could combine an MPL-licensed file with a BSD-licensed one without difficulty.) There are a good annotation and FAQ hanging off of http://www.mozilla.org/NPL/. Most of the source in the tree is NPL, but most new files are MPL these days. Hope that helped.
I wonder when people will finally realize that with the huge amount of different library versions installed on Linux systems, it's pointless to distribute dynamically linked binaries, unless you're a developer building a package as part of a distribution. The correct way to build distribution-independent, nearly hassle-free binaries is to make them statically linked (but even that doesn't protect you from the braindead libc incompatibilities due to configuration files in different locations).
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
The question was what kinds of additional documentation are available to help an outside person get up to speed on how it works, and figure out where they can start pitching in. Getting source is not the problem, reading all of it is (however) untenable.
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
I just keep an icon on the desktop (running KFM with WindowManager) that's a link to "/tmp". Then I just drag links onto that icon when I want to download.
Well, speaking from experience, DNS cache does signifigantly increase browsing, esp. on a high latency device like a modem. How do I use such a cache? It's not in the browser, which is bloated enough already, as has often been pointed out. Rather, I maintain a cache using bind.
Event if you don't go all the way and make bind run as a real name server, you can still do caching only DNS. Plus, it's really cool to have resolv.conf have this line:
nameserver: 127.0.0.1
I think every linux dist I've seen has bind, and there's a really easy howto on setting it up for caching.
Yes, I'm still a junky. Are you still a bitch?
I happen to use visual c++ and it certainly doesn't take 20 minutes to compile. The project I'm working on right now is a few thousand lines and takes about 10 seconds to compile. The compiled executable is about 260K and this is a debugable version that is using rtti, exceptions, and a few other c++ features. gcc 2.7.2.1 produces a debug executable twice that size for a few 100 lines of c+++ that only uses the iostream library.(I realize gcc 2.7.2.1 is pretty bad about c++)
Some of the IDE features such as giving the function prototype when you start typing in the function name and listing class or struct members are useful and handy. It's sort of like a tab completion for programming. But on the downside, it doesn't handle parathetical matching and indentation as well as emacs or xemacs does.
"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
Hmm, I'm running RH6/alpha on a Personal workstation 433, and I got M8 to compile, and it's currently chugging away on M9. What distro/version are you using?
The copper bosses killed you, Joe. 'I never died', said he.
I have tried to run several versions of Mozilla on Windows NT 4. EVERY SINGLE DAMNED ONE OF THEM crashes every time I try to load it. I could try the Linux version at home I guess (Win NT is at work) but I am very disappointed in the Windows version. If it crashed on you after you were actually able to USE it consider yourself far luckier than I have been so far.
I think Mozilla is going to eat IE's lunch because:
.02 - I could be wrong.
a) Because of the adherence to standards, many (most?) web designers will immediately start using it as their reference browser for laying out pages. Therefore, pages will look 'best when viewed with Mozilla', so naturally people will want to run it.
b) One of the things holding back the growth of Linux has been the lack of a good web browser. Communicator 4.6 is a valiant effort, but does not compare to IE5 under NT. Communicator crashes *way* too much, and is behind the times when it comes to modern standards support. It is barely useable for me, and that's only because I know how to 'ps aux | grep netscape', 'kill ' and 'rm -f ~/.netscape/.lock' Imagine the average office schmuck doing that.
Mozilla promises to be better in every way than IE5, which should propel the growth of both Linux and Mozilla.
c) Because it is open source, the rendering engine is bound to end up embedded in just about everything... network appliances, Linux GUIs, etc. In addition to being open source, it's also much more lightweight than IE, making it attractive for these environments.
Just my
I also imagine hundreds of people all finding and reporting the same bugs that the Moz dudes found themselves. Do I have to read through and understand bunches of bug reports to avoid entering a duplication?
I went to the Moz web site and nothing encouraged me to think that my time wouldn't be wasted. It seems that many testers would need some form of good feedback which would make them believe they weren't wasting their time. Like lists of feature that need testing and which have been tested and which have how many bug reports already filed on them, etc.
Those who can, do.
Those not smart enough for that, test and submit bug reports.
Those not smart enough for that, wait patiently while others work out the bugs.
Those not smart enough for that, sit back on Slashdot and bitch about how the quality of pre-release software isn't good enough for them, make meaningless comments about momentum and market share, etc.
Those not smart enough for that are dead, since they couldn't figure out how to breathe.
Right. That's why the gtk libs are in the "gnome" directory on my 5.2 CD. Maybe you're technically correct, but you're splitting hairs.
Actually, only 15 months. And 5.2 isn't much different (10 months old). So upgrade to 6.0, which has only been out 4 months? So being 4 months behind is too far behind? Bogus.
I'm glad it actually loaded. I'll cheer on ANY alternate browser other than Netscape Communicator. Not that I have a "major" problem with it. But I have no choice to use anything else. Mozilla IS slow and a bit clunky on my p200mmx 64m Matrox Millenium 2m. It's getting there... Its free!... But still getting there..
Netscape will release the official communicator 5.0 release with the "netscape" look to it, in addition to a "mozilla" release.
Communicator 5 wont be much different from Mozilla 5, except that it will include copyrighted code that can't be included in the source such as RSA.
You should be able to download both.
-andrew
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"They misunderestimated me." --George W Bush, Nov. 6, 2000
This post hits the nail on the head. At least the part about people waiting for it to be 'sorted out'. After all, if someone finds an 'obvious' bug, well someone else will have found it already and submitted it.. Right?
Uhmm... It IS another application entirely at this point. The rendering engine has been replaced with gecko, the networking lib with necko, the UI with the XUL stuff, expat has been added as the XML parser, XPCOM has been phased in for the component model. There's hardly anything left of the old Navigator/Communicator code in there.
As of the 19th, the engineers found a butt ugly nasty memory leak that grew at the rate of 3.6 megs an hour. As far as I can tell they haven't fixed this yet.
Because the transition of M9 to M10 is a big one (finishing implementing all the features), there has been a whole slew of problems and "breakage" in the source tree.
Real nasty stuff, but hey, it's the home stretch.
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"They misunderestimated me." --George W Bush, Nov. 6, 2000
So what about strip? Would that change things? At least the symbols generated for all the objects used inside should go away.
EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
Ok.. now I've got some all out bitching to do.. Being the free software orientated coder that I am.. I decided I would like to contribute a little to the mozilla project.. so I figured I would download the source and have a bit of a hack around.. I figure that I'll download the windoze version.. that way I can work for long hours stealing^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hborrowing functionality from IE and help develop something that can directly compete against it.. to my dismay, I discover that you need Microsoft Visual C++ version 4.2 or later.. This is a product of evil.. now I mean real evil.. this thing shouldn't be called a compiler.. like.. I'd rank VC++ in the same domain as sun's javac.. it just aint code.. someone threw up and out came this bloated mess that they called a compiler.. you get the point.. why, when we have something as simple and elegant as the cygnus win32 ports of egcs do you continue to use VC++ !?@ .. I assume that it is because no-one has bothered to try converting all this M$ crap into real C++.. that must be it.. And so we have a solution.. I will take the mozilla code and convert it away from this hidous microsoft obomination that it has become.. I will start right after I finish this pizza.. It wont be easy, but I'll get there................................
How we know is more important than what we know.
... Mozilla is pushing straight forward to M11 and public beta/release candidate from this point on. The plan is entitled "Porkjet". See MozillaZine (www.mozillazine.org) discussion thread: "M9 Soon, Then Straight On To M11" for more details. However all M10 features are expected to make M10 deadlines, so you might want to look in bugzilla to see what the status is on this, and about when you can expect to find it.Here's
i think the same things !!! Netscape is a big-slow-buggish program!
to the mozilla crew:
what's up with only posting a linux bianary for RH6? that's really lame, now i have to wait and download 18 megs of source. Also, I would like some bzip2 zipps, my 28.8 modem works hard enough as it is, why don't we get the processor off rc5 and into some work for a change(I'm talking about my processor, as it's easier for the modem to download smaller bzips and have them take longer to uncompress)?
My question is, where did that ugly Mozilla icon come from? It looks like a bitmap that someone made using MS Paint for Windows 3.11 on a computer that couldn't show more that 256 colors! Not that I could do any better ... I just think someone with a little talent needs to whip out The Gimp and make a cool 3-D dinosaur (or whatever it is) logo like the ones that are being used for Linux and FreeBSD.
Colin
www.7thdesign.com
It seems really nice and fast, and seems to support quite a lot of things, but there seem to still be a lot of silly bugs that I wouldnt expect to still be seeing at this stage. For instance sometimes when i highlight the location bar and try to type over the text, instead of disappearing it becomes part of the background and makes it impossible to read. Are other people getting these sorts of things? In any case, many thanks to the mozilla team and keep up the good work. I hope to see NS5 before IE for Linux ;)
God Fucking Damnit
This is a test of the emergency broadcast system. Had this been an actual posting, real content would have followed this announcement. This is only a test...
--
The reason old builds worked and this one doesn't was because AS IT SAYS IN PLAIN ENGLISH this build is intended for glibc2.1 You presumably don't have glibc 2.1, or if you do, your GTK+ and C++ libraries aren't built against it. To try M9, get glibc2.1 and those libraries built for the new libc.
If you don't have GTK+ 1.2 at all, I have no idea how you expected most new GUI stuff to run, seems like half of Freshmeat is GTK+ apps these days.
Looks like the Linux versions have the debug symbols still in place. I wonder if the other platforms still have them.
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"I already have all the latest software."
It is unfortunate that such a landmark project will probably get wasted. Explorer has the market and the momentum once enjoyed by Netscape. To regain it back Mozilla would have to be so much better than its nemesis that it would really have to be another application entirely.
Naturally, if AOL decides to make Mozilla THE AOL browser, the nature of the game may change. But will them?
Even that is faster than Netscape - and it renders very nicely...compare a standard HTML (no fancy things) with IE5 and HotJava and they look shockingly similar...comapare IE5 and Netscape, and you'll see shockingly rendered tables in Netscape (if it does manage render at all).
:P
I'm talking about Netscape 4.x not Mozilla, so you can stop typing those flames now
That is the reason I am not using older milestones. It crashed, but at least Mozilla is lighter than Netscape. I will probably be using it in a few months full-time, might as well get used to it. But the abscence of a right mouse button menu can't be looked over.
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
Sure, which is why MSIE will continue gaining market share. The percentage of computer users that cares about what's on the inside of a piece of software (let alone comprehends the concepts behind its constuction) is so tiny that I can easily imagine MSIE holding 90% of the market share within a year or two.
The only way this might change is if AOL starts using Mozilla. But that's not much better than what MS is doing by tying IE to Windows. Windows users won't bother going out and downloading Mozilla because they don't care to. AOL users won't go through the task of figuring out how to use another browser with AOL because they don't care.
For the vast majority of computer users out there, Mozilla will be insignificant.
I hope this does not prove to be the case, but I fear it will...
Noah
People may not *care* about standards, but they are most certainly *impacted* by them. Right now there is enough deviation from standards to have an effect on what's offered on web sites. Our civilized couldn't even exist without standards. So not caring about standards by the general public doesn't mean that they're not impacted in their daily lives by deviation from nor lack of. To believe otherwise is to be shortsighted in the extreme. (Ostracus)
Glib 2.0 and lower support has been put on hold, not dropped!
You are taking the attitude of a person who thinks that this is a finished web browser. No, it's not. It's just a step in the right direction.
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"They misunderestimated me." --George W Bush, Nov. 6, 2000
Your best bet is to ask this type of question on the netscape.public.mozilla.builds newsgroup. They'll let you know if anyone is known to be working on it, and what to do about specific build errors.
Submit it to bugzilla. No bug is too small, they may be aware of it, but they may not be.
It certainly can't hurt!
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"They misunderestimated me." --George W Bush, Nov. 6, 2000
I just have a look; It is really fantastic !h tml
http://www.mozilla.org/xpfe/xptoolkit/xulintro.
10. Seems even faster than M8; renders pages very nicely.
9. Though stability is still
SEGMENTATION FAULT
Faster, more stable, just plain better. Some sites don't work ;-)
well with KFM, so I email them telling them to fix the site
And how many lines of source code is KFM...1/100 the size
of mozilla. If you don't like something, you really can fix it without
having to wade through reams and reams of mediocre
eighties code.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
It's Netscape's Public License (sorry anyone if I got a bit of that wrong). Truly open-source (ESR and Perens-approved) but incompatible with the GPL.
yeah, i got bitten on the ass by this, its about my largest bitch with alpha heh :) till
If you want to help the Mozilla project and are unable to or don't have the time to code, there's still a lot you can do that will be a great help and won't take up much time.
1. You should read the Getting Started document:
http://www.mozilla.org/get-involved.html
This will give you some ideas in how you can help.
2. The Gecko Bug a Thon is useful to help with:
http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/bugathon.html
3. The status page keeps you up to date with current progress:
http://www.mozilla.org/status/
4. And of course stuff also appears on the homepage!
http://www.mozilla.org/
- I just wish that Mozilla don't lockup every window when trying to resolve a name.
- I just wish that wouldn't take 2 minutes to start and then just for fun two more minutes trying to resolve the names from the news and mail server (it don't even have a composer window open yet).
and yes I do have a nameserver sonfigured, but it's no use when the net is down and you want to use it in you personmal intranet.
--
"take the red pill and you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the rabitt hole goes"
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq
As it should do. The world is not a Linux machine. Mozilla is designed to run on pretty much any Unix. Most of the SparcStations in use today still only have an 8-bit framebuffer, for example. Just because your Linux PC can run a 24/32-bit X server, there's no reason to discriminate against those who can't (BTW, 24-bit SBUS framebuffers are prohibitively expensive and require two free SBUS slots, so telling people to upgrade isn't an option). Besides, 256 colours is *more* than enough for an animated spinner. You've just got to design it right.
PS. I know several people that are still stuck using a mono X server at work...
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
I must say I'm impressed with the speed. Its damn fast. I cannot wait until this becomes stable enough for everyday use.
Kudos to the team. Many thanks for your hard work.
... M10 (or M11, or whatever) is going to be called Pork Jet. Am I the only person for whom that conjures up images of a new line of printers from Hewlett Packard, all of them made of pork products?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Has anyone figured out how to get this to compile on the Dec Alpha. ergo could someone post the RPM needed to compile. I always get missing headers (a jar and a Nav header.) Sigh Leslie Donaldson
It's not like I'm running on an Amiga or a Casio E-100 or a Palm Pilot or a Sinclair QL or a Dreamcast or a yawn... I mean, this is a red-hot-one-year-ago (remember how things were a year ago... a month ago... last week... kids today) laptop. i586. MMX. Quake II. WindowMaker. vi. Capisce? 1024x768 pixels of uncut attitude. Every Milestone I have to break it to my baby: the Man from Mozilla says 'No'.
Laptop: Are you on crack? You're saying I have to put up with Netscape 4.07? That heinous piece of crap.
Me: Hey, watch your language, laptop. Don't make me hafta open a can of Lynx on your ass.
Laptop: Alright, alright. Couldn't you just download the source? Pretty please? Me: 20Mb on a 33.3k connection? Buddy, your F00F bug is showing.Laptop: But Navigator hates Java. The slightest applet brings it to its knees.
Me: I know.
Laptop: Why the hell don't browsers cache DNS lookups? There's some kind of DNS locking going on that causes it to whiteout. On DNS for chrissakes! You look at top and it's got like 96% of the memory.
Me: I know.
Laptop: Try reading Slashdot on that baby. Good luck. Back doesn't mean back on planet Netscape.
Me: I know.
Laptop: Don't get me started on Javascript. Or CSS. Bloat. Speed. Key Bindings.
Me: I'm sure it will come. One day...
Laptop: Yeah. That'd be a freakin Milestone.
First, it would make no sense to have a "shared" lib that only one application could use. That's static.
:)
Which is what I think M9 uses. It makes sense too because then they can see the whole thing report bugs rather than running old libraries with new code and having legit code barf over old libs. I think Necko and the rest of Mozilla are developed simultaneously so it has to be all together.
as for Windows "shared" libs... I wouldn't know
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
Frankly I don't care about Netscape, now that I've discovered how well KFM renders Web pages. They come up faster, the scrolling's more smooth, and it just generally feels cleaner than Netscape. Sure, it doesn't do Java, but who cares? Java sucks. Slashdot and Freshmeat don't use Java, so you don't need that, and you can keep Netscape around for those rare times you need it. And Java and Javascript are in the works for KDE 2.0, and it even does SSL. I'm looking forward to the day when I can rm Netscape entirely. Netscape was the defining software product of an era, but... I think its era is now over, and it's time to move on.
browsers available. People who care about the inside not the outside will use it exclusively. Aside from Lynx.
The ship sank. Get over it. (This sig was cut out from another's shirt and painstakingly hand-posted)
Ever since RMS had the cow about not wanting anyone to use the LGPL, they've been making the C libraries binary incompatible while just changing the minor number. Upgrading to Glibc-2.1 just to run this unfinished Mozilla means losing virtually all the software on my system. I actually run stuff besides Netscape, believe it or not.
Damn fine postin, Camel! Nice to see some thought now and then in a forest of Zealots. :)
Corndog
why waste the time on Slashdot when you could be contributing to mozilla? Thanks
InterDev promptly screws up the style sheet (drops a trailing squiggly bracket)
Would I get flamed if I said "Raise a bug with Microsoft"?
In all seriousness, post screenshots of the source in the IDE and another different text editor (I'd recommend TextPad) to a web site and mail me / post the url. I'm using InterDev at the moment, and this would be useful ammunition in my quest for DreamWeaver...
Cheers
----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
I will be using this one on a day-to-day basis. I
expect the development pace to pick up once there
are a ton of users.
Minor gripes - tab key is annoying, menus are
even more annoying and don't redraw correctly
when you press esc to return to the page.
More minor gripe - drag & drop doesn't work as well
as it does in Communicator 4.61! waah.
I prefer to use source from milestones, rather than that of cvs, as there are often experimental features in cvs code that might break code. I do not like to download the milestone binaries either, because it costs too much to download them (freaking isp per/mb limits (australia)). Are there patches between source milestone's. If so, I haven't been able to find them yet. Cheers
Comment removed based on user account deletion
As long as web developers support the standards, then momentum shouldn't count for shit. In contrast to the operating system and office suite markets, there aren't too many Explorer-only plug ins and Explorer-only format extensions left. As long as Mozilla, Explorer, and the other browsers stick to standards, they will be basically interchangeable and momemtum won't be a factor.
Crashed when I set toolbar to text only. Sroll arrows flickering.
Someone was telling me they were putting Javascript support into lynx.. and I said "man.. that's futile.. you must be bored" and he was like "yer.. but it's almost working and it's REALLY REALLY slow.." so I said "why not contribute that to Mozzilla" and he was all like "yer.. I would.. but I'm not that bored". Next thing you know they'll have tables working correctly in lynx..
How we know is more important than what we know.