Linux on Palm

thppt writes "PalmStation is reporting that a company called OSK Inc has ported Linux to the Palm hardware platform; they're dubbing it as a kind of "LinuxCE". They have some screenshots of bootup, running apps, telnetting to the Palm, connecting to the Palm's web server, and multitasking. " They've actually got a WindStone ROM Image for evaluation on their web site. I haven't tried to download it yet, but has anyone else tried this?

Comments

Clarification

[bgdarnel]

OSK did not port Linux to the Palm; they're using the ucLinux kernel. OSK has written a PalmOS compatibility layer (analogous to Wine), which lets you run existing Palm applications as well as Linux apps.

No Practical Application - Don't be so sure

[SurfsUp]

as useful on a theoretical front as a Palm running Linux is, and as geeky it is to have a webserver in your pocket, there really is little, if any, practical application to this.

I am working now on an industrial application that requires handheld units to be interfaced via radio modems to a network, all for the purpose of factory floor automation. Obviously, there is a use for Linux on the palm pilot - I'd much rather work with a system where I've got full source code availability, than with PalmOS - which looks good, by the way, but is not open

However, we won't use palm pilots this time round - the technology is just a little to immature. One big problem is that all the radio modems available for the Palm seem to be oriented towards connectivity with cellphone networks. That's not what we want, we need a wireless LAN connection. This is where the consumer orientation of the Palm really shows. Maybe in another year that will change. In the mean time, we'll use older, uglier, heavier, keypad units that have been around for a while.

Benefit?

[mmmmbeer]

Although I am a Linux fan, I don't see the point of porting linux to a palm. Since the palm differs so much from a desktop computer, how can it possibly share the same apps, even if it uses the same os? Are there going to be any new applications that will only run on the linux version of palm, and if so, why couldn't they make them for palmos instead, it seems to work pretty well for me?

A Psion 5 can be had for quite cheap

[198348726583297634]

I got mine for $250 (plus $12 s/h). Works great! Check on pricewatch.com. The Series 5mx is more expensive, but that's because it's twice as fast, has twice as much memory, and maybe something else. The 5 is all you need for cheap, small connectivity, though. Even almost touch-typeable!

Re:Already dont

[Pascal Q. Porcupine]

You're likely thinking of uClinux, an embedded MMUless version of Linux for the Palm. According to this site, Windstone is based on uClinux. From what I can glean from the site (it's going really slowly), Windstone is uClinux with the capability to run PalmOS programs. Personally, I don't know how they can really do that; many applications are based on the fact that PalmOS doesn't have any high-level multitasking. As someone else pointed out, PalmOS is very good for what it does, and as much as I love the idea of free software on my Palm (not this freeware and millions of crappy $5 trivial shareware programs where the nagscreen and registration code probably took more coding than the program itself), if all this does is makes it easy to port Linux applications to the Palm, well, that's rather pointless. I don't need GIMP or Netscape on my Palm, as TealPaint and AvantGo do the same sort of functionality except better in the context of the Palm. PalmOS is *great* as far as handheld OSes go; as useful on a theoretical front as a Palm running Linux is, and as geeky it is to have a webserver in your pocket, there really is little, if any, practical application to this.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.

Re:been there

[Thomas Charron]

This package IS built on ucLinux. It is a modified uclinux kernel, with apps. I'm not sure how modified the kernel is, etc, but it is based on uclinux itself..

Re:Competition for CE

[.pentai.]

My guess would be their "binary compatibility with PalmOS" is the same as FreeBSD's binary compatibility with linux.

LinuxCE(gah) or whatever they wish it to be called can probably run PalmOS apps. This could be good.

TI-83

[LWolenczak]

I just want to be able to put linux on my TI-83

Re:It's all in the ROM

[Szoup]

Well, it may be TECHNICALLY feasible, but ROM is a piece of hardware, so if you were planning on having your own customized ROM chips made, you'd require a fabrication plant of some sort to stamp out the chip.

Some might say this is a quite a daunting task you've set for yourself...

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Re:Already dont

[Pascal Q. Porcupine]

What, women can't be geeks? I know quite a few female geeks. :) Oh, and I'm not talking about something like JenniCam... that's not a wearable device where someone can see exactly what's going on from Jenni's point of view, with or without biometric information.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.

Re:Already dont

[Pascal Q. Porcupine]

Well, actually, the Palm's screen is 240x320, but other than that, yeah, that was exactly the point I was implying. In WindStar's defense, it looks like they've got some decent drawing/widget toolkits for uClinux, but again, that's a moot point - PalmOS is already MUCH more suited for a handheld than Linux ever will be. If someone wants to do a free clone of PalmOS or a free handheld-oriented OS, that's fine by me, but don't try to retrofit a server OS with workstation legacy to a handheld...
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.

Re:Now what?

[Jamie Zawinski]

The reason that CE doesn't make sense in many palm tops is because the UI was made for desktops. However, I highly doubt that anyone is going to try and run X on a palmtop

Agreed on both points. But today, you can write Palm programs with gcc, and all the usual Posix libc goodies. You can't use X, you can't use Gtk. So this begs the question, what tangible benefits would Linux provide that PalmOS would not?

So, linux on the palm pilot isn't bad. But what might make it actually good?

Exactly. As far as I can tell, using Linux rather than PalmOS wouldn't change either the programming experience or the end-user experience. In particular, there are basically no end-user Linux applications that will run on Palm Linux without first being redesigned to work with a completely different user interface.

It does have some areas that are better than PalmOS, like networking.

Isn't the primary problem with Palm networking the networking hardware, not software?

Plus, writing C code for PalmOS has some strange quirks.

Interesting, can you give some examples?

Personally, I would love a PalmPilot running linux. It might inspire me to write my own hand writing recognition software

What does Linux have to do with that? Do you think it would be easier to write handwriting recognition software under Linux than under PalmOS? Why?

mirror

[Will the Chill]

http://208.224.40.114/palm/

May not have all pics yet; still trying to d/load some. Also, may not be the best quality, working in solaris from school in 8-bit mode. Hope I don't get /.'ed too hard...

-Will

Multitasking and palm

[homunq]

Palm has a true multitasking kernel (AMX). Unfortunately, their license forbids them from giving you the multitasking API. You can use the features, however, if you pay AMX $5000. Or, hackers who don't care about publishing what they've done could just hack into it and not get caught. But we don't have any of those around here, now, do we?

A lot of the power of the linux kernel is page files and swap space and all that jazz. If your volatile and nonvolatile storage are identical, well, as people have already said, there's just not much point.

Where's the source?

[roystgnr]

Their claim that it's a uClinux-based kernel, and especially their claim that it's binary compatible with PalmOS apps, seems to indicate that they've made kernel modifications. They've got a link (currently quite slashdotted) to a ROM image including said kernel. So they're distributing a modified GPL'ed program: where's the source code?

Re:Where's the source?

[Thomas Charron]

You should request it. That's the only thing required by the GPL, that you can GET it if you request it. Period..

I would like to propose the name lince :)

[jilles]

Very cool that linux also runs on a palm. Now the next problem is what type of applications to run on it. It will probably take some time before small enough productivity apps are developed. Also there is the problem of supporting all the mostly propietary communication stuff that usually runs on top of a palm computer.

Re:I would like to propose the name lince :)

[jilles]

does that mean it runs all the low level stuff that provides the protocol stacks and such?

Re:not sure if this is the right place for linux

[wowbagger]

I think perhaps some of the cooler aplications would be to get a Linux based GUI embedded on systems like o-scopes and logic analyzers where CE seems to have a strangle hold.

As an embedded systems program who designs "o-scopes and logic analyzers" (well, communications service monitors, which have 'scope and analyzer functions built in) I am very glad to see people saying this.

Now, make yourselves heard to the marketing people at companies like HP (now Agilent Technologies), Tektronix, Anritsu, Yokigawa, and (if you buy spectrum analzyers or communications service monitors) IFR Systems (my employer). Tell them you'd rather see penguins than broken glass. PLEASE!. They look at me like I'm on drugs when I suggest this (actually, things are getting better, and we are actually considering a Linux-based design within my department. Now, to get approval...)

Re:Already dont

[Jamie Zawinski]

I might buy one, though, if I can easily write applications for it under some OS I happen to actually use. If I can quickly and easily develop applications on my desktop and then simply recompile them for a Palm,

You can already develop Palm apps on Linux: see the Palm Development HOWTO. Then you can debug it in XCopilot and never actually try it on a handheld until it's finished...

Now, if you insist on everything being the same as on Linux, meaning you want the Palm to use all the same libraries you're already used to, like Xlib and Gtk, then I think you're going to be disappointed even if you get it. Try this: pick your favorite Gtk program and launch it with --geometry =160x160 and see how well that works... Then try to find the middle-button on your Pilot's mouse!

Apps for handhelds have to be written differently, because the input and output devices are so different from what's available on desktops and laptops.

Re:For the Future (was Re: Cool)

[Jamie Zawinski]

In fact, to date, the only PDA that looks reasonably useful to me is the Sony Viaio (or however you spell it ;) The little pentium-powered handheld sublaptop. So you say, "but it's not a PDA". WHO CARES? It's what I want. A little system that can do some processing on the road, that I can uplink to my main computers.

The Vaio's a nice machine, but it hasn't crossed the size quantum. There are three sizes of computers that are interesting: ``it sits on my desk,'' ``it fits in a backpack,'' and ``it fits in a pocket.''

Now I've got big pockets, but the tinier Vaio still doesn't fit in them. And the keyboard is so small that my thumbs rub together when I'm on the home row. Also, it doesn't have a serial port, only USB (which means you can't use Ricochet with it.) (The bigger Vaio has a plug-on port-replicator thingy that gives you a serial port, but not the smaller version.)

Re:Show us the source!

[Thomas Charron]

That's a very simple change, as they can simply throw a given binary type at a program. See the changes made for Linux to nativly run Java classfiles. It doesn;t really, it just throws them at the JVM.

They HAVE a system that runs the Pilot binaries that is completely seperate from the OS. Most likely, this is what is happening with pilot binaries.

Also, they do not need to distribute the changes, they merely need to give you the source IF YOU REQUEST IT. ;-P Most entities are NICE enough to offer them as direct downloads, but it's not a requirment.

Competition for CE

[adimarco]

I wonder what Micros~1's reaction to this will be. Portable, hand held devices are the holy grail of the industry at the moment. As The Great Convergence nears, portable, wireless devices will become increasingly prevalent in our lives. They're basically the next PC platform.

If Micros~1 doesn't assert their platform dominance early on in this market space, they risk missing the "next big thing", and their precious profit margin.

I'm curious about the "binary compatibility with PalmOS" that it claims. While I haven't the faintest clue about what it took to port Linux to the Palm, I'd like some more info about this aspect of the technology.

Also, anyone know about the licencing of the product?

Anthony

^X^X
Segmentation fault (core dumped)

Now what?

[Basje]

What's all this about. First we rant on about windows not being made for palmtops, but for desktops, and now we put Linux on the palmtop.

Exacly which of the two makes more sense than WinCE does? Graphics mode? (fit that in 8Mb) or the console mode? Sounds cool [NOT]. Try to type kill -9 (or perl )on your silkscreen. They must be masochistic.

We have a rather decent palmtop OS, and now we have to replace it with Linux? Why?

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not sure if this is the right place for linux

[infoflux]

I think that this is kind of excessive. I think that the idea of a GUI Linux for small computers is interesting, but the point is that the reason I don't like CE is it is bloated. PalmOS does a great job at organizing my life, and keeping track of basic info. I don't really thing the nature of the Palm Pilot architecture in general lends itself to power computing or to an environment where a Linux based OS would be advantageous. Now, don't get me wrong, I think this is cool as hell, but more like geek eye candy. I think perhaps some of the cooler aplications would be to get a Linux based GUI embedded on systems like o-scopes and logic analyzers where CE seems to have a strangle hold. Seems to me that using a Linux solution might reduce costs here. Finally, does anyone know if this will work on the Handspring Visor? I'm kind of a sucker for its pretty colors. but I', kind of dismayed by lack of linux support. Is this compatible (since the Visor runs palm OS), and are there any plans of creating Linux software to support uploads/downloads from the visor?

Re:Show us the source!

[Thomas Charron]

Actually, I stand corrected, NO CHANGES are required for a kernel to run binaries thru another program. The CONFIG_BINFMT_MISC entry during compile includes a module that reads a config file that can redirect binaries to applications based on their type. Entries in the configuration file then dictate where to throw them. Example beflow is for Java capabilities:

':Java:M::\xca\xfe\xba\xbe::/usr/local/java/bin/ javawrapper'
support for Java Applets: ':Applet:E::html::/usr/local/java/bin/appletviewer :'
or the following, if you want to be more selective:
':Applet:M::!--applet::/usr/local/java/bin/apple tviewer:'

LinuxNT

[Anonymous Coward]

Because some people have the mistaken impression that Linux, like Windows, can be made to fit all roles from tiny little handheld devices to large scale clustered supercomputing. Just because it CAN doesn't mean it is any good at it. Linux on a handheld device is kind of pointless since, like you said, PalmOS does the job much better than Linux ever could. Likewise, if you're really going to build a supercomputer you go to SGI and build a clustered system instead of fscking around with ethernet connections between cubes/nodes. So, basically, people are trying to make Linux into Windows and that is the sad part. NT is excellent for the average user's desktop, Linux is good for advanced unix users and up to mid-range server usage.. workgroup settings, etc. Solaris takes over after that scaling up to near-mainframe level computers, and then you have the dedicated stuff that the average user will never interact with being taken care of by IBM or SGI. I no more want Linux to dominate the desktop and server markets than I want Windows to. Why can't we accept certain OS's have their places and they work best in those places and leave it at that? Use standard, open, interoperable protocols and everyone can talk to everyone without caring what OS they use. That is the OSI 7-layer model!

Linux would be better on that other PDA

[iKev]

I just dont think the Palm platform is feature laden enough (right now atleast) to fully take advantage of linux..I admit, I still a newbie to linux, but something like that other device mentioned, which had wireless ethernet, 800x600 screen..tablet form factor,USB.. sounds like a much better candidate.. Like other people said, PalmOS does a good job of acting as a personal organizer

Please to enlighten me...

[Zoltar]

I'm afraid the plam clue bus had passed me by, but I keep thinking that I should get one. Can someone please explain to me:

1) Is this something that would be installed over the palm OS ? (ie. you would replace the palm os with this ?)

2) IF I install something over the plam os, can I re-install the plam os at a later time ?

The ROM broke my co-pilot

[|DaBuzz|]

Well, I was able to get the ROM running on the modified version of co-pilot but when I installed FPSUtil to check out the specs the OS are reporting, my calibration went all haywire ... now I can't even get into the right menu to fix it.

Another thing I can't figure out is, if it's Palm compatible ... why do they need a modified version of co-pilot? I mean, if it's not gonna work on stock palm hardware (emulated or not), why bother?

Anyway, it looks cool I guess even if it was dog slow, has a HUGE footprint, and broke my co-pilot when I installed an app.

Re:GPL Violation?

[Hulver]

It's only a violation if your download the rom, and then request to see the source, and they don't let you.

They only have to give out the source code to anybody who asks for it. Using the GPL dosn't meen that you have to give your source code to anybody who asks. Using the GPL meens you have to give the source code to anybody who requests it who you have supplied your product to.
You can't stop the people who have got the source code off you distributing it in any way they want (within the terms of the GPL)

Besides, it sounds like the Porting the Kernel is a small part of what they have done. The other modules of their product sound like they have nothing to do with the Linux kernel.

Re:Already dont

[Pascal Q. Porcupine]

I'd disagree. wget or some other sort of client running on the Palm could be very useful for a sync. I have no problem with using HTTP as the underlying protocol for a synchronization. However, that doesn't necessitate having a webserver in your pocket.

However, I can see where a webserver would be handy in the palm of your hand afterall... for the total geek factor, hook up a bunch of sensors to various parts of your body, maybe add in a webcam (though the Palm certainly doesn't have the CPU speed to drive a webcam effectively), and then someone can live vicariously through you on the web. :)

Also, I have no problem with having a web *browser* on the Palm. That's what AvantGo is for. AvantGo is a very good browser, considering what it has to work with. (Hint: PalmIIIs only have 2 megs of RAM total.)

Now, what I'd be interested in is making a wearable computer based on the uCsimm/uCgarden. Most geeks I know have a dead SIMM on their keychain... I'd have a fully-working wearable computer. :) (My idea regarding a wearable is have it as simple as possible, and basically be a thin client. As long as it has ethernet of some sort, preferrably wireless, and the ability to run screen, ircII, TinyFugue, w3m, and some simple PIM-type programs locally, I'm happy.)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.

How about using it as a remote ....

[Ricochet]

That sounds kind of stupid doesn't it? But keep reading it's not as limited as that. For the sake of brevity I won't go into each detail. I think I'll post an article on my web page with my thoughts on this subject (and I'll go into details). See the links below.

First I have a PIIIx (4M of ram expandable to 8M and OS3.3), This is one tool I find very useful. I'm also a home automation (HA) enthusiast and I've been pondering/considering using inexpensize items to interface to my HA systems. I have a gameboy, a TI-85, an HP28C, a TRS model 100 and the Palm Pilot. Each has it's limitations, the PIIIx/Visor has several things going for it. But it also has limitations, one of which is you can not task switch an application. You can only do 1 thing with it at a time (this is not a limitation of the processor, I think). By adding multitasking you can send and receive messages (not limited to mail, other types of messages also) run an app, have another app interrupt you to let you know something else is going on (not just appointments or timed todos). If I can get an 802.11 interface connectivity/flexiblity would be further increased. There are still lots of problems to overcome and most of what I am describing sounds very silly but the Palm Pilot provides an simple to use and flexible system to interface to other things. And with the cost of the Visor these devices may just replace the TV remote as a simple device found in just about every home (at least in the US).

One other thing, has anyone noticed that the Palm Pilots are only a little larger than the report pads used on Star Trek?

--
Linux Home Automation - Neil Cherry - ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lig htsey/52 (Graphics)

Linux on Palm. Great! So what?

[meckardt]

This seems like it would be a great idea. But on second thought, what real benifits is it going to give us. The biggest problem with the hand helds is not the OS, it is the interface. Just adding Linux as the underlying operating system isn't going to automatically give us a great interface. And it certainly isn't necessary to a great interface. I've got nothing against Linux, but I can't see that it solves the problem of Palmtop OS's by itself.
Mike Eckardt
meckardt@yahoo.nospam.com
http://www.geocities.com/meckardt

Re:./ effect

[Eagle7]

CmdrTaco does a good job explaining why this is not done in the /. faq - check it out.

Of course, another option is when /.ers mirror pages themselves...

It's all in the ROM

[Szoup]

Since these devices have the OS on the ROM, you need to replace the ROM to replace the OS. Hence the mention of a ROM image in the 'Linux on Palm' article. If you install a replacement over the OS, then getting the original back only requires a reset of the device.
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