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China Enters Space
Almost everybody sent it: "China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..." BBC story - SpaceViews story - official press release from China Daily.
If 125 top level scientist can't help US then what a couple of spies can do for Chinese rocket program!
I have no doubt that the Chinese space program is being fueled by Russian technology to a far greater extent than US technology and I never said otherwise. Pictures of the capsule resemble Soyuz, the bundled configuration of boosters is a classical Russian design (and may be why they never went to the moon), and the landing site are all characteristics of Russian technology.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes them to overcome the booster problem for their moon shot.
We all know China's previous record.
*Ahem*.. Excuse me, but which country has actually droopped nukes on people? Which country is constantly bombing other sovereign nations with neither declaring war nor consulting the U.N.? China threatens Taiwan with weapons, but has it actually attacked them?
Before you get scared that China is going to attack other countries, look at the countries that are ALREADY attacking other countries!
Not true. US immigration policies haven't stopped admitting poor people, in fact, compared to most other developed nations we're one of the worse (or best, depending on your perspective) in that regard. If anything, the US needs to tighten them up more. Other countries such as Canada atleast have a system in place where immigrants tend to be educated and mobile (or atleast have a good track record of success). Furthermore, when it comes to engineers and what not, we restrict them in the name of protectionism--very stupid. Damn few of our immigrants have much in the way of skills, it's a shame.
I don't think the fact that they have little experience will have much effect. If they can launch succesfully, then they can start doing just about anything. If they could get the funds together, then China would be even more inclined to start colonies on, say, the moon, what with their overpopulation. Plus, if they get more friendly with Russia, mabey russia will put some launch stations in China, and do a joint project, making Rusia's easier and cheaper, due to the launch lattitude.
You do realize they do pose a threat to our existance right?
Good grief! Please actually go take a trip to China and look around. You'll see Coke stands next to Adidas stores (along with domestic merchandise). Talk to the people who live there. They're making a living, investing in stocks, etc. Same kinds of things that you do. Go to a restaurant, and when a beeper goes off, half the people in the area look down at their belts..
Life in China is hardly 1984-ish at all.
countries that are bent with killing the 'evil capitalists'.
Capitalism is the rule in China these days. It's far more capitalist than even the US in many ways. In a typical middle-class family, everyone from grandparents to kids know more about stocks than most people in this country do. Please look up some first-hand info.
Go talk to some people who actually come from China. China does not "pose a threat to our existence". I can't believe how effective the propagandizing media has been in affecting intelligent Slashdotters.
I don't see it as being much more dangerous, and nor do I see it being the responsibility of leaders and strategists.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
At one point you state America as having "been around for how long, 200 some years" and yet not three lines prior you mention Salem, 400 years ago.
Not favourable terms? Wow. I coulda sworn "most favoured nation" status could have meant something else...
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
The amount of xenophobia here amazes me. It seems that everytime we have an article on any advance in China, we have Slasdotters making chittering little noises that amount to "Oh no, are they going to kill us now?"
China has replaced the Soviet Union as the big bad wolf in American eyes, and when supposedly rational Slashdotters take part in the fear mongering, it's easy to see how movements like McCarthyism arose in America.
I wonder if China started planning trips to Mars would the US's space program try to speed things up on it's own planning? Maybe end up starting another space race type thing?
Just a thought.
Eric Anderson
As opposed to all the Anti-China crap in these comments, perhaps?
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
...consult the UN? After all they are *the* most recalcitrant in paying their fees. In fact Congress refuses to let America pay, somehow thinking the UN owes *it* a debt of gratitude.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
And dont forget gunpowder, guess what the Chinese used it for? Firecrackers. The europeans came up with the idea of using it to fire a projectile.
Actually, you're quite wrong. The chinese invented rocketry for the purpose of sieging castles. They were firing explosive rockets over city walls long before Europeans even had cannons.
And as you may know, it took European inventiveness to put a practical use to paper, i.e. the printing press.
Actually, iirc, movable type printing was invented long before Gutenberg in the East as well. It's just that with Gutenberg, it really took off.
But you're right (sort of) when you allude to the fact that the Chinese's biggest fault was in being too self-congratulatory and unaccepting of outsiders because they were "just barbarians". The ancient Greeks had a similar attitude and they likewise fell.
But you know what? After all the crap China went through from European abuse in the 19th and early 20th Century, it learned its lesson. China now is more eager to assimilate other cultures than almost any other place.
And you know who's becoming really arrogant and unaccepting of others (always thinking they're the best)? The US.
If history taught us anything, that's going to be a problem for the US...
... of course, but frankly, I'm pleased that there is at least *one* challenger to US hegemony on the planet.
One amusing fact is that there is a myth of communist ineffectiveness (I refer to communism as a historical fact, not as an ideal model). In the two nominally communist superpowers, we have countries which went from being relatively backwards little stumble-bums of history, to world-class superpowers, in the space of a few decades. The Soviet Union managed to develop a space program only a decade after having been completely mauled by the second world war, in addition to improving the standard of living of its populace to a very high extent (vis a vis the pre-communist standard of living.)
A real tragedy of communism is that it has never been attempted in a country with a genuine democratic tradition. I attribute China's autocratic nature more to China's historical political culture than to communism per se.
Perhaps the eurosocialist model is just that fusion of socialism and democracy.
Not to diminish what they've done, but the Party statements quoted in the BBC article are just hilarious: this was done using technology developed by Chinese scientists? Well, maybe. But I'm guessing some of that "development" occurred in the U.S., by U.S. scientists, was purloined, and sent back, either as the result of espionage, or as the result of (IMHO) illegal deals struck with U.S. aerospace companies while Big Brother Bill looked the other way (he was busy preventing any crypto exports).
I think it's odd that people see the use of existing knowledge as this evil espionage thing.
I mean, hello? If something exists elsewhere, why re-invent the wheel? There are lots of programmers here, right? Don't you try finding libraries for things that have already been done instead of re-implementing everything yourself?
You COULD implement everything yourself, but that'd take a lot more time, and is just plain silly.
Re-inventing the wheel is generally considered a STUPID thing to do. Yet, if people don't do it in these cases, they're being inferior and incapable of coming up with something themselves. I see it as just common sense.
Not so. The US consistently only volunteers to help where things are in its best interest. And not only in the military sense. Iraq? Oil. Taiwan? Computers (witness the infamous "Earthquake in Taiwan? Oh no! RAM prices will go up!" comments).
East Timor. Doesn't have a lot to offer the US, so they stay way the hell away. The US isn't a team player, it leans heavily towards self-interest.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
You know what gets me about stories like this? It's that I have to read so many *stupid* posts made by arrogant, self-centered US citizens. I hate that it's these few people who are doing the most mouthing and getting the most attention drawn to them. It's really no wonder the rest of the world is starting to hate us. I hate those same people and I'm about as American as they come.
Please don't judge all Americans by the example set by the few that seem to do the most talking. I keep seeing posts that say things like "you Americans are all the same" or "Americans are so arrogant". Geez, come on. Stop making blanket statements like that. We're not ALL alike.
The United States of America has done a great deal for the world; that's true. However, the good ol' US of A isn't spic-n-span clean and we're FAR from self-sufficient. The world has done more for us than we have for it. Hell, the simple fact that we're only a couple hundred years old should make that point fairly obvious. Yeah, we seem to be "on top" right now, but that changes. It absolutely will change. And when it does, you better hope we have some friends still around or else the US of A will be no more.
I guess this post is making a dual plea. First, to my fellow Americans that are making all these ridiculous posts...grow up! Look around you. The "rest" of the world is a hell of a lot larger than we are; their interests and opinions are more important than ours and you better learn that. Second, to those non-US folks reading all these posts and drawing blanket conclusions about Americans...stop it! You're falling into a trap unknowingly set by these idiots. We're not all that simple minded and we're not all that hateful.
I'm pleased and impressed that China has entered club of spacefaring nations. I'm also thinking: forget "Hilton in space", how about "Happy Good Luck House, Chinese food to eat in or take out" ;-D
I'm afraid to break the news to you, but that would NOT mean China is only the third country to send austronauts to space. If they were successful, it would make China the third country to send astronauts to space in their own space shuttle. I'm absolutely positively sure that us Canadians have sent our own austronauts into space in NASA space shuttles, and it's possible that other countries also have similar partnerships between their space programs and either the U.S. or Russia.
The point is, their government doesn't really like us at all.
You know what? MOST governments, including most Western European ones.. hell.. even most citizens of most countries.. don't like the US government very much at all, and I think they're completely justified.
China pretty much keeps to themselves. Sure, there are internal human rights violations, and that's a problem, but at least China's not stomping around the world violating other countries' citizens' rights.
So yeah, China doesn't like the US government very much.. it's because no one likes the US government very much.
As I said before, the people don't have control over the government, do they?
That's a really naive statement. Just because the government does bad things certainly does NOT mean they are not at all accountable to the people. They are. Ultimately, making your people happy is the best way to stay in power. Why do you think China has been slowly but surely progressing to be more open both economically and (yes) politically? It's because that's what the people want.. it's because that's how people are made happier.
Freedom of speech in China still needs work, but it has improved greatly since 1989. Those students who protested DID have an effect. The government isn't going to just agree to all demands outright, but they are slowly implementing the changes that people want.
(Before you say so, yes, there are some areas where the government won't budge, like Tibet. But that doesn't mean they haven't been improving in other areas.)
It seems to me that China could buy all the rocket technology it needs to put a man in orbit from the former Soviet Union. Maybe they'll cut a deal for MIR, too.
Don't know about Europe, Japan, etc. but after the Toshiba 3 axis NC flap who knows?
As far as I can tell the concept of 'secret technology' is an oxymoron. A fellow I know by the name of Ari Phillips published a working design for an A-bomb when he was a teenager - based on declassified documents he found in various libraries. Created quite a stir, it did.
Can't put the worms back in the can oh no!
Hey, let's put export controls on strong crypto! That will stop the drug runners, commie pinkos, Democrats, tax cheats, the Michigan Militia, Posse Comitatus and all those heathens terrorists from sending coded transmissions!
Yeah, right.
China has been launching satellites for a while now. This is only the first launch of their manned spacecraft, but without an occupant. I am surprised no one else has noted this error.
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Infuriate left and right
You're trying to tell us that the Chinese spent all that time pilfering secrets from America's top-secret government-funded research laboratories, and the only secrets they stole were for technology the United States' own space program abandoned almost 30 years ago? What the holy hell are you on about?
Please, go back to making Monica Lewinsky jokes or something. God knows, we could use more of those!
- A.P.
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"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Oh, really? I wonder if you'll be singing the same song when "Chinese scientists" suddenly develop Keyhole-type spy satellites and Star Wars type defenses that remarkably resemble the work done in the U.S. in the 1980's (and that coincidentally after numerous additional cases of espionage and "technology exchange" with borderline treasonous U.S. companies). What happens when the Chinese start selling these capabilities to our pals in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc. etc.
The world is a much more dangerous place because of this, and responsibility for this rests in large part with our brilliant leaders and strategists.
What you fail to recognize is that the "Long March" rockets would blow up on a very precise and regular basis right up until U.S. aerospace companies helped them out with new technology.
Well no, supposedly this technology is pretty much the same technology that the Russians and the US used on the 60s. Though I wouldn't put the Chinese beyond "stealing" our technology, I see no reason to believe that this technology necessarily had to come from us directly. Afterall, there was significant technology transfer from the Russia, and alot of the 60s technology is pretty much common knowledge now. Furthermore, the Chinese have some excellent engineers, and significant pockets of technological development.
I can see how you might interpret my comments as racist, but quite honestly, they are not. If I believed that they had truly developed this on their own, I would be quite happy to give them credit. My recollection, however, of numerous news stories a few months back is that several U.S. aerospace companies were under investigation for having illegally transferred to the Chinese technology that could be used to solve various problems they had been having with the Long March (namely, it blows up a lot).
Actually, my first thought when I saw this article was exactly the same as the original poster. China has done some very dodgy things to get our latest missile technology, and that's pretty much the same stuff used to send people into space. Think about the Clinton scandals and John Huang.
This is not a racist statement; I'm sure China has many fine scientists, and I'm sure they're capable of doing good stuff. But the espionage is a fact, and the transfer of US technology is a fact. They wouldn't have paid so much for it if they weren't going to put it to use.
D
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Here's a little reality check:
Duh.
I welcome China to the small club of nations capably of contributing to space research. I'm sure they had help in doing so (like everyone else has had) and that they will use it mainly for peaceful purposes (like everyone else, although I head that the US have a lot of .. oh well).
(this is not flamebait, this is well needed insightfulness ... It's scary to see so many americans here who haven't got a clue - isn't Slashdot supposed to be a community of _intelligent_ people?)
it's in my head
... when you don't have the industrial-financial base to support it. It takes a heck of capital, both physical (plants, machinery, materials) and human (know-how, skills, training) to turn the ideas (stolen or otherwise) into real actual working machines. The US had to go nearly $6 trillion into debt to fund the Cold War (accumulation of deficits from Korean, Vietnam and various anti-communist insurgencies) and even then it was a rather close thing that they didn't go bankrupt before Russia did. And selling off Mickey Mouse hats and movies to the rest of the world is not going to pay this off either.
:-)
If you look at China (how many people here have actually visited that place?) you'd still find mud houses (strangely enough sitting next to a modern satellite equiped apartment block) in central Beijing. Their energy needs are still powered by high suphur content coal (one reason why interior cities are so polluted). And too many of their really good technical people leave and/or are snatched up by Western firms. Despite the war-mongering vote chasing by Bush, China is still pretty much an agarian society with much agriculture still being doing by hand. People forget that the US war machine is funded by taxes (40% of GDP?) from realatively high incomes (by world standards) that goes to pay for all those nicy shiny missiles (which have to be replaced after shooting up the reminants of Serbian infrastructure) and associated pork-barrelling. In fact some people would claim that the US economy is still on a war footing.
It is only now that resources are being released back into the civilian sector that you see such advances in communications (CDMA was originally a military application) and software. China's level of technical skill is comparatively poor and while they may be a world power by 2050, at the moment it is not exactly in a state to wave any sticks. IMHO, the US has more worries about trying to keep moral high and designing attractive careers for its own military personnel than worrying about any other army on the earth which they could beat hansomely (given enough warning) except the Isrealiis who have a (justifiably) paranoid and professional army. In other words, if you're Chinese and have a hankering for violence, the best idea is to give up now, emigrate to the US and learn how to play Quake.
LL
Zontar The Mindless,
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
The ones that are back in stumblebum status are the ones that have made a radical shift to a free market/democratic society. China may be using a free market model for many things, but it is still deeply socialist, much more so than any European country.
Personally, I agree that Allende's regime would probably have been an economic disaster for a number of reasons if he had implemented the policies he had initially proposed, but let's be honest - he didn't fall, he was pushed, before he had any real chance to do much of *anything,* by Pinochet and the CIA.
I'm not an apologist for the the 20th century communist state, by any means, but they myths currently being propagated about the failures of socialism overlook these basic facts:
1. American success is primarly a product of World War Two, not of the inherent value of the capitalist system. George S. Kennan described the situation best - at the end of WW2, the US directly controlled about half of the world's wealth, and the role of US geopolitics was to maintain that precarious imbalance.
2. Given that, the socialist economies of the eastern bloc performed amazing things in light of the ongoing hostility of the US. 3rd world countries that aligned themselves more closely with the US did not do as well, since, sadly, it was their lot to preserve the imbalance mentioned by Kennan, by providing cheap labor and natural resources. The disasters of the socialist economies has more to do with centralization and autocracy than anything else - viz. the disastrous agricultural projects of the 70's in the USSR, largely the result of fantasies of Moscow apparatchiks.
3. The liberalized economies of Latin America are only serving a small fraction of the economy. A recent article in Latin Trade described how the Latin middle class, which American free market boosters had predicted would mushroom over the bast 10+ years of free-market policies, has been in crisis and dwindling, with the wealth of the upper classes expanding (and often moved offshore) and the poor remaining solidly poor. The victory of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and the renewed vigor of Latin leftists parties in the last couple years, now with growing middle class support (which is always fortunate, since it keeps these parties sensible, the governments democratic, and the economies mixed,) is a result of the dawning realization that the majority of Latin Americans are simply not meant to benefit from the implementation of free market policies.
Einstein did NOT develop the Atom bomb. You might say he sparked it, and layed __some_ of the fundamental groundwork. Though the development of the Atom bomb was probably inevitable, the Manhattan project was something special. The source of the intellect (e.g., Jewish Germans during WWII) is of little relevance; it is the forces that fostered the development that sets us apart.
I'm not convinced that societies/government, such as China and the USSR, are capable of such fundamental leaps in the scale of the manhattan project. In fact, The USSR did, after all, feel the need to steal our technology. Very little technological advancement came out of the USSR in its prime. The same can be said for China of yesterday. However, I believe China is making fundamental changes towards a more free and open society and towards capitalism, as they approach this, they will become the next superpower.
Its really disturbing to see that you Americans think that China is *always* up to no good. Its so hypocritical that a nation that uses its power to its own benefit (and no one elses) to say that China is now doing something wrong by putting something in space.
I live in Hong Kong, and sometimes you people amaze me by how narrow-minded you are.
You guys need to wake up from the American dream and face the reality of the real world.
Go ahead, moderate me down, but you all know its true.
I think we can safely say that it will be quite a while before China gets to Mars. Remember how long ago it was when the Russia sent Yuri Gagarin into space? That's at least a forty-year span, there. China will have to make all that up.
Intriguing. They embrace Linux as their official OS, and shortly after, they are able to enter space.
I think you also overestimate the ability of the US to go it alone. In many fields, the majority of scientists and engineers in the US are foreign born. They come here because the US government lets them, because some places in the US are nice to live, because a lot of their colleagues came here before, because the standard of living is pretty good for them, and because the US government still has some of the most generous government funding for research and development in the world.
Furthermore, the US space program is based on a vigorous exchange of ideas with other countries, often even joint projects. The little bit of information the Chinese may have wrested from some US contractors probably pales in comparison. The only difference is that the US has branded that exchange of ideas "espionage" in the case of China, while it is completely acceptable when it happens, say, between a French contractor and a US space company.
Restrictions on what information can be shared with China may well make sense from a military point of view. But underestimating the Chinese or overestimating the US are both dangerous mistakes and will likely lead to poor policy decisions in the US in the future.
None of the coverage I have read up to this point has picked up on the real signifigance of this story. A manned module and an ICBM is it's payload.
Yesterday, China put the world on notice that it can now strike anywhere in the world within half an hour.
All the other possibilities for China are minor side effects of this ability. Weapons in space, trips to Mars, etc. are not the focus of developing rocket technology.
Take note: China can put a nuke on your doorstep.
http://solar.rtd.utk.edu/~mwa de/articles/chidoors.htm
Cheers,
-j.
The article is a little vague. Did this craft come down on water or dry land?
The "Shenzhou" spacecraft landed in the Inner Mongolia region of China, on land.
They mention parachutes and retro-rockets and resemblance to Apollo.
Actually, Shenzhou far more closely resembles the Russian Soyuz spacecraft than any American vehicle; close enough that many have wondered how much Russian assistance was provided to the Chinese.
Incidentally, Mark Wade's excellent Encyclopedia Astronautica has a great deal of additional information and images of Shenzhou; perhaps the most comprehensive online resource available.
- Jeff