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China Enters Space
Almost everybody sent it: "China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..." BBC story - SpaceViews story - official press release from China Daily.
I know the origin of pokemons. My point stands.
/. makes enough money to boycott Chinese produce, MANY PEOPLE CAN'T. So, taking every thing in to consideration, there isn't much that can be done.
Exactly my point. Don't complaint about lack of human rights and labor laws, if you can't live without it. I'm sure alot of ppl on
>if anyone knows their history
>you should realize that war and the chinese go
>together like yin and yang
Are you daft? How fucking stupid are you? China has been *repeatedly* and *successfully* invaded since Genghis Khan. The Mongols (not one, not two, but *three* generations of the Khan family), the British (Hong Kong and the Opium Wars), and the Japanese (pre-WWII) have all successfully occupied Chinese soil. What, you think that "Wall of China" thingy is a "militarily offsensive" structure? Feel free to pull your head out of your asshole any time now.
The only reason China is still a country today is that its greatest strength is converting the invading force to their culture. Marco Polo said of Kubali Khan is was impossible to believe he was Mongol. How many British customs have been created or reinforced by occupying China (tea?)? How many Japanese customs?
China has only recently become externally aggressive (Korea, Taiwan), and compared to how China itself was treated and subjegated (sp?), very kind to external countries. Before Communism, China's foreign policy was "You leave us alone, and we with leave you alone". More or less, this still holds true today.
To all those "China stealing rocket technology from us" whiners, China *invented* the field of rocketry, and Europeans *stole* that idea from the Chinese. I guess that the Chinese have just been paid back for that. As well, if open source standards and free information (you know, those ideals that you so mindlessly and hypocritically agree with, defend, and quote as gospel) would have been universally applied, they could have just have downloaded the plans from the web.
Of course, the human rights issues internally are pretty ugly, but hey, in America, you do or have done similar (but not on the same scale) things (McCarthyism, Salem witch hunts, fag-bashing, slavery, race riots, geek oppression, Japanese concentration camps in WWII), so climb off those high horses. As well, USA has historically been VERY aggressive (including invading MY home country, Canada. Does the term "manifest destiny" mean anything to you?).
Just some flame bait to piss off those knee jerkers who can't think before they post.
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"
If 125 top level scientist can't help US then what a couple of spies can do for Chinese rocket program!
I have no doubt that the Chinese space program is being fueled by Russian technology to a far greater extent than US technology and I never said otherwise. Pictures of the capsule resemble Soyuz, the bundled configuration of boosters is a classical Russian design (and may be why they never went to the moon), and the landing site are all characteristics of Russian technology.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes them to overcome the booster problem for their moon shot.
Who's pointing the gun? As I mentioned, the US hasn't signed the treaty yet, right? WHO has the biggest GUN?
One has to look at the overall situation. Nothing is perfect. But to keep the whole better, some must make sacrifices. The difference is the model under which these sacrifices take place. In the military, insubordination is treated as treason(or some thing else that is just as serious) and the perpetrator can be shot. And yet almost every normal country has a military that they are very proud of. Its a different model of doing things. Military ensures the stability of a country against malicious invaders. Because millitaries are accepted by every one in the world, they prosper.
Still, China is does not have such a ridged system, its a different model--one that not yet accepted by the world. As all complaints about China goes--Its bad here, its bad there... Its bad because they are compensating for some problems-- such as a quarter of the world's population. Try to govern that many people all cramed in very little space using the American model. It will fail miserably.
All this said, I must take a deep bow to those who did make such great sacrifices in order to change a flawed system. They are the truly respectable ones. acknowledge the changes that they have made, and help China to keep these changes. Don't destroy their legacies by ignoring the things that they paid so much for.
We all know China's previous record.
*Ahem*.. Excuse me, but which country has actually droopped nukes on people? Which country is constantly bombing other sovereign nations with neither declaring war nor consulting the U.N.? China threatens Taiwan with weapons, but has it actually attacked them?
Before you get scared that China is going to attack other countries, look at the countries that are ALREADY attacking other countries!
Not true. US immigration policies haven't stopped admitting poor people, in fact, compared to most other developed nations we're one of the worse (or best, depending on your perspective) in that regard. If anything, the US needs to tighten them up more. Other countries such as Canada atleast have a system in place where immigrants tend to be educated and mobile (or atleast have a good track record of success). Furthermore, when it comes to engineers and what not, we restrict them in the name of protectionism--very stupid. Damn few of our immigrants have much in the way of skills, it's a shame.
I don't think the fact that they have little experience will have much effect. If they can launch succesfully, then they can start doing just about anything. If they could get the funds together, then China would be even more inclined to start colonies on, say, the moon, what with their overpopulation. Plus, if they get more friendly with Russia, mabey russia will put some launch stations in China, and do a joint project, making Rusia's easier and cheaper, due to the launch lattitude.
Great comment! Moderate this one up! Good links, BTW!
When the Americans' balls are to the war, they *always* turn to Canada for help (Avro, D-Day, and any American-sponsered United Nations motion; because, guess what, internationally, Americans are despised). However, us Canadians always get paid back in spades (can you say "Auto-Pact" and "unlimited defense treaties"? Knew you could!).
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"
You do realize they do pose a threat to our existance right?
Good grief! Please actually go take a trip to China and look around. You'll see Coke stands next to Adidas stores (along with domestic merchandise). Talk to the people who live there. They're making a living, investing in stocks, etc. Same kinds of things that you do. Go to a restaurant, and when a beeper goes off, half the people in the area look down at their belts..
Life in China is hardly 1984-ish at all.
countries that are bent with killing the 'evil capitalists'.
Capitalism is the rule in China these days. It's far more capitalist than even the US in many ways. In a typical middle-class family, everyone from grandparents to kids know more about stocks than most people in this country do. Please look up some first-hand info.
Go talk to some people who actually come from China. China does not "pose a threat to our existence". I can't believe how effective the propagandizing media has been in affecting intelligent Slashdotters.
I don't see it as being much more dangerous, and nor do I see it being the responsibility of leaders and strategists.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
Hot Russian Brides Available
I'm sure that these people can tell you stories about the effective uses of resources.
You know, there used to be a thing called the "scientific community" where people are supposed to SHARE knowledge rather than horde it. :P
Uh, wasn't the American rocket program pretty much completely taken from the German program, with German scientists or via espionage?
:)
No doubt Chnese rocketry was influenced by the Amricans, the Russians, the Germans, and perhaps, gasp, the Chinese, who invented rocketry centuries ago...
(Great, I'm fanning the flames... Sorry guys.)
The amount of xenophobia here amazes me. It seems that everytime we have an article on any advance in China, we have Slasdotters making chittering little noises that amount to "Oh no, are they going to kill us now?"
China has replaced the Soviet Union as the big bad wolf in American eyes, and when supposedly rational Slashdotters take part in the fear mongering, it's easy to see how movements like McCarthyism arose in America.
I wonder if China started planning trips to Mars would the US's space program try to speed things up on it's own planning? Maybe end up starting another space race type thing?
Just a thought.
Eric Anderson
..or is it ?
When America and Russia were competing to get into space in the 50s and 60s it took a huge amount of resources and computers weren't around to help with the math.
I'm hardly surprised by the fact that China has put a capsule into space, after all a number of private consortiums are competing to launch private space rockets. There's no denying a lot of them are doing it for fun, but there are a few serious contenders, and a lot of them are doing the work for very little money. Most of the major problems which consumed resources have already been solved and all it takes to find a solution is a quick web browse. I'm very surpised we don't have at least 15 nations with manned space capability by now.
Anyway, if anyone knows any different, please reply.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
As opposed to all the Anti-China crap in these comments, perhaps?
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
So the question now is whether or not other countries are going to go into space now, or if they will sit and watch China... and will countries such as the US to put more weight into the space program. Personally I think unless China does something that no one has done before, there won't be a great reaction from the other countries in terms of actually launching more things into space than is already planned, since we are long past unmanned flights.
You've certainly got a point there.
...consult the UN? After all they are *the* most recalcitrant in paying their fees. In fact Congress refuses to let America pay, somehow thinking the UN owes *it* a debt of gratitude.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
And dont forget gunpowder, guess what the Chinese used it for? Firecrackers. The europeans came up with the idea of using it to fire a projectile.
Actually, you're quite wrong. The chinese invented rocketry for the purpose of sieging castles. They were firing explosive rockets over city walls long before Europeans even had cannons.
And as you may know, it took European inventiveness to put a practical use to paper, i.e. the printing press.
Actually, iirc, movable type printing was invented long before Gutenberg in the East as well. It's just that with Gutenberg, it really took off.
But you're right (sort of) when you allude to the fact that the Chinese's biggest fault was in being too self-congratulatory and unaccepting of outsiders because they were "just barbarians". The ancient Greeks had a similar attitude and they likewise fell.
But you know what? After all the crap China went through from European abuse in the 19th and early 20th Century, it learned its lesson. China now is more eager to assimilate other cultures than almost any other place.
And you know who's becoming really arrogant and unaccepting of others (always thinking they're the best)? The US.
If history taught us anything, that's going to be a problem for the US...
... of course, but frankly, I'm pleased that there is at least *one* challenger to US hegemony on the planet.
One amusing fact is that there is a myth of communist ineffectiveness (I refer to communism as a historical fact, not as an ideal model). In the two nominally communist superpowers, we have countries which went from being relatively backwards little stumble-bums of history, to world-class superpowers, in the space of a few decades. The Soviet Union managed to develop a space program only a decade after having been completely mauled by the second world war, in addition to improving the standard of living of its populace to a very high extent (vis a vis the pre-communist standard of living.)
A real tragedy of communism is that it has never been attempted in a country with a genuine democratic tradition. I attribute China's autocratic nature more to China's historical political culture than to communism per se.
Perhaps the eurosocialist model is just that fusion of socialism and democracy.
O.k., I agree that the Chinese have been quite hostile of late, but I say we be optomistic. Just because a country has a communist government does not automatically mean they should be america's arch rival. Simply because we have different beliefs in reference to politics doesn't mean that they are not human and therefore similar goals as the rest of us in the free world. Provided their recent actions are genuinely in the name of exploration and the furthering of the human race and not with the intent of taking over the world I say more power to them. The only way we as a people will every truly become the explorers of the universe and galaxy that we someday hope to be ("go where no man has gone before") is if we all band together as the human race and put our resources, knowledge, and know how together and find solutions together. While competing has helped us to reach goals in the past I, for one, believe that the ultimate goal of space exploration will never truly be realized until we all put our petty differences asside and work for a common, human, good. Look what open source has done for the world of software... it has created a true revolution. Until our governments can mature a little and have a simmilar stance of technology w/ regards to advancing the human race and obtaining its goals we will all continue spinning our own wheels blaming and accusing each other while obtaining relatively small victories in the grand scheme of things.
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin
Without any glorious pictures to the contrary, I imagine something went wrong.
Not to diminish what they've done, but the Party statements quoted in the BBC article are just hilarious: this was done using technology developed by Chinese scientists? Well, maybe. But I'm guessing some of that "development" occurred in the U.S., by U.S. scientists, was purloined, and sent back, either as the result of espionage, or as the result of (IMHO) illegal deals struck with U.S. aerospace companies while Big Brother Bill looked the other way (he was busy preventing any crypto exports).
Disclaimer: I apologize beforehand for the cynicism you are about to read. My opinions are based on and exceeded solely by my ignorance of the situation.
Okay, maybe it's just me, but how is it news if it's decades behind? I don't see it.
the spacecraft appeared to resemble the Apollo series of capsules launched by NASA in the US in the late 1960s.
Gee, wonder why. Can anyone say, "technology exchange"? I mean really, doesn't it seem just a tad fishy to anyone other than myself that 10 years after we send up Apollo, after having advanced beyond that, that the Chinese re-invent the damn thing just after our texchange?
How is this news?
*sarcasm on*
In recent news today, the Chinese have a new TV show, called Sassame Street, featuring characters "slightly resembling" those of our own Sesame Street. The Chinese on the other hand dispute those claims, stating that "Bag Bird + Cookie Demon" were "designed and manufactured by Chinese scientists".
*end sarcasm*
*end comment*
As far as I know China was not party to the US and russian treaty against putting weapons in space. As such it is very possible that we might see nuclear weapons or something in space b/c of this.
This may lead us to another cold war type of scenario. Far from being bad (as long as we don't nuke each other) the pressure to develop to innovate and even to explore space will be great thus blasting the world out of its sort of consumer compacancy (i.e. does going to space/basic research mean more money/bigger TV for me. No? then don't fund it).
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
Interesting parody. *wink*
This old joke:
At the height of Chinese-Taiwan tension in 60's, local militia men in the province of Fujian, directly at the shore of Taiwan strait, invent a way to detect Taiwanese infiltrators. The militia would go to a local bus station, got the passengers lined up, and order everyone do "Radio Aerobic Workout", a exercise routine every school childern in Comm. China knows. The one can't follow the music to do the routine were rounded up and send to interrogations.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
China is in UN security Council not for the nuclear weapon, it's because it inherited the seat occupied by Republic of China (official name for the goverment in Taiwan).
ROC was one of the five Allied countries of WWII. (US, Brits, France, Russia, China). After ROC lost china over communists in 1949, they still hold on their UN seat until 70's, when they were forced to resign (saving the face of being vetoed out). Of course US was on the side of Taiwan.
And China doesn't have enough Nuke to kill off the man kind. I think Ukrine has more Nuke than China has. (pure speculation)
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
Not sure that whether it'll be moderated as off-topic since the discussion seems to be more concerned about China-bashing and China-bashing-bashing...
:).
The translation "God ship" - more appropriately should be as "gods' ship" - misses a subtlty of the name. "Shenzhou" has the same pronounciation as "gods' land", which in Chinese traditionally refer to the land of China. A pretty smart name from Jiang Zemin - the General secretory of CCP (read China
P.S. "gods" probably should be small capital because it's not the God as in christian religion.
While a lot of you (we?) techies might think it's an interestinig development, has lots of promise for global development of space technology, new competition, yada yada... don't you think there are better things for a government of 1.2 billion people, many starving and living in poverty, to spend on than A MERE SPACE PROGRAM? Does China still limit the number of children a family is allowed to have?
For God's sake, misplaced priorities are SERIOUSLY hurting a LOT of people. A little humanitarian intervention would be nice to see, regardless of all the politics. (This being said from Canada, where I know you can criticize, but partly we're on the right track).
Fuck it
I'm a Contonese. I want to hear somebody explainto me exactly what the big deal of reusing the organs of executed criminal. Now I'm not talking about 1)organ of other prisoner 2) seller for money 3) selling to foreign country etc.
Nor do I spend anytime reading the detail of their/our actual actions. I just want to know the moral justification behide it.
CY
I'm afraid you're quite mistaken about Chinese replacing French as the second most spoken language in Canada. Funny, I've heard this rumour a few times now and yet it's not even close to reflecting reality. Check out this link from the last census: CDN CENSUS DATA
You'll see that French-speakers still make up just shy of 25% of the population. Chinese-speakers are about 2.5%, a tenth of the number of French-speakers.
The big news is the incredible growth in that percentage amount. Twenty years ago the Chinese percentage was 0.4%. That's an incredible growth rate. Chinese is the first language to knock the big two "allophone" languages down a notch. Chinese has supplanted Italian and German in Canada, but by no means French.
p.s. I thought the rest of your post was pretty cool
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
Just wondering... would it be easier to destroy a sattelite from ground or space?
If it is easier from space... that has some interesting implications for the military establishment...
Amazing.
Take a piece of what should be good news (a new partner in space exploration), throw a flag in the mix, and watch the little shaved apes go at each other like it's 1 000 000 BC. Supposedly intelligent, enlightened people become patriotic berserkers when several nations whose governments told the populace to hate the other enter the arena.
On the one hand, the gerontocracy in control of China has a pathetic human rights record. On the other hand, it's not like the populace has much choice for the time being. Witness Tiananmen Square - nice attempt fellas, too bad the army had the guns.
I think we should welcome a new nation to the ultimate frontier. Make a few magnanimous gestures, speak a few kind words, they may even have something to contribute to the "international" space station.
Old fears die hard, eh? Mao is dead, and the times are a-changin'. Slowly, but a-changin'.
And as this entire thread has shown, attitudes change even slower.
Or maybe I'm just naive, and put too much faith in this species to get past itself.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Oh, I agree that there are always ways to improve the educational system in every country. The US has some real problems with schools in economically disadvantaged areas.
However I think that the educational system in the US is much better than the impression you might get by reading the newpaper.
It is true that if you examine the average score on a standardized test given in the US, and compare it to that achieved by students in, say France you get a result that is not impressive. What people DON'T see reported by the press is what the distribution of scores is, or what the reuslts of tests of things other than regurgitated facts.
In the US the distribution is broad - students who have special ability are generally given more opportunity in the US. The result is that the US test scores for the upper percentiles are in fact as good as if not better than any in the world.
Another aspect rarely reported is that tests that measure things OTHER than the retention of factual knowledge (say problem solving ability or creative writing skills) paint a very different picture. These sorts of tests show an American education as being on average as good as if not better than any in the world.
Another factor with education in the US that is unusual compared to other nations is the number of people who go on to post secondary education. We have a very strong system of trade schools, community colleges and so on. The result is that over 50% of Americans receive some sort of post secondary degree, 80% some form of post high school education. These are by far the best numbers in the world. Because of this we don't have the same problem that the British and French do with some exam determining your ultimate role in life.
One of the mysteries that the newspapers don't answer when writing about the educational system in the US is how American workers have the highest productivity in the world if their education is so crummy.
And by the way, the stories of Einstein being a poor student are myth. He was no more a poor student than George Washington was an arborist. Einstein actually earned high marks in both primary and secondary school.
The best biography on Einstein I have seen is "Subtle is The Lord" by Abraham Pais. It's a good read, especially if you have some math and physics in your background. And it dispels some myths, too.
But because the US has the budget publicly and privately, of course many of the top-line people from elsewhere (including Canada) will move to the US to follow the opportunity.
I find it amazing that people just refuse to grant the American institutions that attract highly talented people from all over the world the credit they deserve.
The Statue of Liberty is there for a historical reason. The institutions that led to it's construction are still operating. Highly talented individuals who come to the US to pursue their work are given better opportunities than anywhere else. This includes the opportunity to win Nobel Prizes.
This is not a flaw in the US system.
I sure hope someone doesn't point to Linus and Tove and suggest they've somehow "sold out" their Finnish roots.
I hope not too. But it is no accident that Linus is living and working in the US. I recently read that he is also working on a US citizenship.
I think it's odd that people see the use of existing knowledge as this evil espionage thing.
Now that's a funny statement. Trying to bring in the programmer connection is kinda ridiculous, though.
How do you get those libraries? People who create them post them in public places. Now, suppose you wanted a library that wasn't publicly posted. You have to go about obtaining it in some other way, right? Warez. Stealing. Espionage.
That's the point. Re-inventing the wheel is an excessively trivial analogy for this case.
I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
As a Chinese, I always have the impression that Japan has better space technology. Guess they don't push too hard on this area.
The thing is, China *has* to have advance military technology. Japan doesn't (or can't?) have to. WWII is just 50 years away. And Chinese has used to use centary instead of decade/next presidentcy as a unit to see the future. That's one of the reason China develop advance military protecting/revence techlogoly for Japan's potential unexpected move. (mind you China's navy suck ass, it's not really threadening the southeastern asia.)
You see in Chinese thinking, they/we still can't comprehent the reason of Japan overly-ambitious invasion decades ago. That's why Chinese take extra step in protecting itself from Japan. (personally, I don't care Taiwanese' idea one way or the other, so don't bother to argue this with me.)
The space program is always byproduct of mid/long range missile research and development. It doesn't indicate that China's tech in other area are as good as this one. We still can't produce decent DVD player, car or football player. (Yeah, the real football )
After reading through this seemingly endless political bickering, some of which displays a level of ignorance and utter idiocy that is truly astonishing considering the usually intelligent readership of Slashdot, I have only one thing left to say about the Chinese rocket launch.
To all those who made it happen, congratulations on a job well done.
---
Peace,
vilvoy
Is that not the responsibility of a government? To look after the best interests of its own people?
;)
Granted, it would be nice if the US were more of a team player and helped everybody else out for the sake of sheer niceness, but people and the sociopolitical/economic entities they associate with are, by their very nature, self-serving.
That's what such entities are created for; take care of their own. It's all fine and dandy, provided that a person/sociopolitical/economic entity does so without infringing upon another's ability to do the same.
In Iraq, US action was necessary to protect its interests. The methods did interfere with how Iraq was going about serving its best interests, but that issue is null because Iraq's own actions interfered with the rights of another nation.
Most Americans feel no connection to East Timor, so it's not considered an important issue in addition to there being little to no sociopolitical or economic benefit to be gained. Selfish, yes. Wrong, perhaps. Illegal, no.
Non-Americans like to complain about this as if their country wouldn't dare to act in such a manner, perhaps because of their inherent "niceness." I guarantee that if any other nation were in the position of the US today, that nation would behave in exactly the same way. That's the dark side of human nature. It sucks.
There is a light at the end of that tunnel, but most people here seem to regard it as B.S., so I'll leave it there.
I don't seem to recall the US tagging itself as a team player, anyhow. The speaches I recall from the Gulf War days by President Bush involved phrases to the effect of "protect the interests of the American people. Oh, and help those nice people in Kuwait get rid of their invaders, too, yeah, that's it." The propaganda circulated through the media, though, emphasized helping Kuwait kick out a Hitler wannabe. Sneaky, sneaky.
I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
Arise, ye who refuse to be slaves!
With our flesh and blood, let us build our new Great Wall!
The GNU programmers faces its greatest danger.
From each one the urgent call for action comes forth.
Arise! Arise! Arise!
Millions with but one heart,
Braving the enemy's fire.
March on!
Braving the BillG's F-U-D.
March on! March on! On!
Thanks for playing, anyway!
:
So BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I agree that war is not about to be caused by China, it makes no economical sense. It is United States that I would be worried about. For one thing, it still didn't sign that treaty about Nuclear weapons, right? What is that all about?
In Bejing, the Capital of China, there are two very white strips of writing on the red wall, right by chairman Mao's picture(They are big, you can see it all the way across from the tian an men square). One side talks about the longevity of communism and chinese people. The other side hails the longevity of WORLD PEACE! Thats right, It is some thing that was carved in to China as a country when it was formed!
I suggest that every one find a translator and go and take a look at it. where do you see, any where in the United States, or in any country, that opening proclaims that there should be WORLD PEACE in a place that represents national pride?
But technological advancement does not impede world peace, it extends it! So I think millitary considerations should not be such a high priority. In this world, its all about who does the right thing, not who has the biggest gun.
Try this if you don't think so. Start boycotting Chinese produce today to protest ________(what ever, human rights issues, epsionage, what ever you can think of.) See how happy you will be a week from today.
Or try this, make your kid stop watching pokemon for a week. See how happy you will be.
Its nolonger about guns and radars, and missiles. In the new world order, the information age, no one oughta be willing to damage human life to get what he wants. the war is fought on a very different plane.
enjoy.
>Actually, you are wrong. The USA *did* have rocket technology during WWII; the reason they "acquistioned" German rocket scientists was to keep them from falling into Soviet hands.
Well technically the US had Robert Goddard, and the Germans had a missle capable of hitting London from Germany (the V2). A lot of countries had the beginnings of rocket technology during WWII but the Germans were the best at it, thus the scramble for German scientists after the war. I'm sure keeping them out of Soviet hands had something to do with it, but so did the US desire for the technology.
IIRC most of the US space program was based on WWII German work, and on that carried out by German scientists "recruited" into NASA at the end of the war.
bil
Where you stand depends on where you sit...
Global strike capability is new to china. They have never had the long range bombers or submarines that the US and Russia rely on as our secong strike force. China is making some slow gains in the submarine field, but they can't rely on them for SLBM's quite yet. The biggest gains in all this is the diplomatic power that ICBM's give them. They're in a new league now. A league that previously had two teams, Us and Russia.
Cuba was a politically repressive kleptocracy before the Communists kicked the pro-American Mafiosi out of power. This doesn't mean that Castro was much better. A Cuban-born friend of mine remembers growing up under the political repression of Batista - people were afraid to say things in their own houses because they'd get hauled away and killed at night. After the revolution, it was better for a few months, but became repressive and unsafe soon after, and his (anti-Batista) parents sent him to the US at age 14 so he wouldn't be drafted and sent to fight in Africa or Bolivia. Didn't like it here, and he's now a Costa Rican.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I think it's odd that people see the use of existing knowledge as this evil espionage thing.
I mean, hello? If something exists elsewhere, why re-invent the wheel? There are lots of programmers here, right? Don't you try finding libraries for things that have already been done instead of re-implementing everything yourself?
You COULD implement everything yourself, but that'd take a lot more time, and is just plain silly.
Re-inventing the wheel is generally considered a STUPID thing to do. Yet, if people don't do it in these cases, they're being inferior and incapable of coming up with something themselves. I see it as just common sense.
OK, I'm off topic - deal with it.
Did anyone else follow the link to china daily?
This is a highlight?
Let's hear the rest of the list.
"China successfully launches and retrieves its first unmanned spacecraft, moving it a step closer to becoming the third nation to send astronauts into space..."
i'm almost positive a french guy flew on a russian craft once. unless they mean "send them there themselves," but that's not what that sentence is saying.
>...and space shuttles taking off from Sweden. Last time I looked there were none.
You're looking in the wrong place, the European Space Agency lauch Ariane from French Guiana (sp?) on the North coast of South America.
Just a thought but is the ESA the only space programme to involve more then one coutry?
Bil
Where you stand depends on where you sit...
Not so. The US consistently only volunteers to help where things are in its best interest. And not only in the military sense. Iraq? Oil. Taiwan? Computers (witness the infamous "Earthquake in Taiwan? Oh no! RAM prices will go up!" comments).
East Timor. Doesn't have a lot to offer the US, so they stay way the hell away. The US isn't a team player, it leans heavily towards self-interest.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
Personally I wouldn't find inventing McDonald's something to be proud of ;-)
America may have *popularised* things, but they certainly didn't invent as much as you think. Certainly, the car was invented in Europe, not America. And who invented rocketry, which America likes to use? Oh, it was China, a mere couple of thousand years before the modern American state was formed.
You mustn't forget that China is an old country with a far more interesting past than that of the USA. The recent communist era is a mere blip in the history of that place. Thankfully, China is opening up more these days. Yes, their human rights record is poor. But that of the USA isn't so good either. On the international scene I'm sure China creates less hassle than the USA. The US can be a good place. But it's not perfect. And you certainly didn't invent everything - so don't believe the brainwashers who say you did!
You're entirely right. And the Russians where the first ones to send an unmanned object to space, they where the first ones to send animals to space and they where the first ones to send cosmonauts/astronauts to space. And the only reason they wheren't the first ones to get asrtonauts to the moon was because they had an unfortunate accident, just like the Challenger accident but worse. And they have also put up the most succesful spacestations. So it is certainly not only the USA;ians that can put things in space. And I just want to say that the article is a bit wrong, this was NOT the first unmanned shuttle China has sent to space. That was a sattelite called 'The East is Red'. /Erik
Erik Dalén
You know what gets me about stories like this? It's that I have to read so many *stupid* posts made by arrogant, self-centered US citizens. I hate that it's these few people who are doing the most mouthing and getting the most attention drawn to them. It's really no wonder the rest of the world is starting to hate us. I hate those same people and I'm about as American as they come.
Please don't judge all Americans by the example set by the few that seem to do the most talking. I keep seeing posts that say things like "you Americans are all the same" or "Americans are so arrogant". Geez, come on. Stop making blanket statements like that. We're not ALL alike.
The United States of America has done a great deal for the world; that's true. However, the good ol' US of A isn't spic-n-span clean and we're FAR from self-sufficient. The world has done more for us than we have for it. Hell, the simple fact that we're only a couple hundred years old should make that point fairly obvious. Yeah, we seem to be "on top" right now, but that changes. It absolutely will change. And when it does, you better hope we have some friends still around or else the US of A will be no more.
I guess this post is making a dual plea. First, to my fellow Americans that are making all these ridiculous posts...grow up! Look around you. The "rest" of the world is a hell of a lot larger than we are; their interests and opinions are more important than ours and you better learn that. Second, to those non-US folks reading all these posts and drawing blanket conclusions about Americans...stop it! You're falling into a trap unknowingly set by these idiots. We're not all that simple minded and we're not all that hateful.
I believe all you americans forgot about the canadian contribution to "your" space program. Canada worked hand in hand with NASA on past and present projects. That and the fact that many of the engineers on the initial space projects were Ex-Avro engineers who were out of work after the Arrow fiasco. Althoguh Canada doesn't send up it's own rockets with astronauts, we do train our own.
Canada? Hitchhikers?
I'm sorry, but Canada is not a hitchhiker. Canada is a major contributor to the space program. In fact with all that Canada has done it should be considered the joint space program.
Intersting how much comes out of a country with a population of 28 million compared to one with 250 million. Maybe it's all those extra `u's
It is now "the yellow planet".
No wait, we claim Mars in the name of Communism, so now it's REALLY "the red planet". Well, more accurately, "the people's red planet".
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
So when will China begin to oppress space aliens? I assume it's not too far off. :)
And by the way, why the hell do they need to be up in space with all the space they have in their damn country already!
"I welcome China to the small club of nations capably of contributing to space research."
.
Man, do YOU have a distorted view of things. Sputnik, and the things that followed were all about the cold war. Posturing, demonstrating to the world that you could put a nuke in their front yard any day of the week.
Further space developments were more of the same; "I can beat you up, but I'll show you that I can also spend 8 hours a day in the gym shooting up steroids and pumping iron until I'm an overdeveloped mutant! Just to drive the point home."
Or do you have an alternate explanation as to why we went to the moon, and haven't been back in 25 years, and why we built thousands of nukes in the 80's when we really only need a few hundred to completely fuck over all life on this planet?
This is what the entire space program is for.
While it's nice that Science got a free ride for a lot of research, (thanks for the heavy lifters guys, oh, sure, you can use a few, don't forget the press releases, wouldn't want to light one of these bad boys off without the less fortunate nations knowing we got 'em!" it was not done in the name of science, it was done in the name of cold war posturing.
Now, China wants in on the game. Well, I don't say welcome, and thanks for reinventing the wheel. I say, SUCKERS! boy, you sure fell for that ABM stuff, hook, line and sinker.
I guess we'll be digging you guys out of your economic rubble in another 10 years, just like the former USSR, that is if you don't launch on us. .
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Another "Space Race" to Mars is not what we need.
We need space "Exploration", not the charge towards a defined goal and then the total abandonment of the project once the political ends have been achieved.
I think it is great that another nation now joins in on space research in this most direct way. The more authorities work on this, the more research is done, the greater the change that man will conquer space. Do try to work together with the others though.
A small plea to the chinese government: Please do not abuse the technological advances you gain from this for military purposes. (Like the U.S. and Russia) Be good! Put the technology into use by chinese companies instead, and give them the technology advantage. Your nation will be better of by doing this.
Oh, and to you americans complaining about human rights in China: Yes, I know the chinese government isn't always "Mr. Nice Guy". But please do take a look at your own front porch before complaining about everybody else. (I'm not trying to troll here, I just think that there are so many questionable things about the U.S. that you ought to look into first.) You may call me naive, but I sincerely believe that the more technologically advanced China gets, the better will the conditions for the people living there become. I do not mind that China has a communist government, since I do believe that communism done right will actually work a lot better than capitalism done wrong (like in modern Russia, and in some aspects the U.S.).
- the Crazy Fraggle
Insightful? more like flamebait.
... just brilliant guys ... bright as hell and talented and professional to a man."
US space program was built by europeans
Really? A few ex-Nazi rocket scientists captured from Peenemunde do not a manned space program make.
Damn straight North American brother!!! Sure a few of the basic ideas for getting things going came from those German guys. But when the chips were down and the Apollo program needed to kick it up a notch to catch up with those blasted ruskies the US knew where to turn to... that's right Canada. Dief took the order from his yankee masters and the Arrow program was scrapped.
Jim Chamberlain, Owen Maynard, John Hodge...the list goes on and on...
Avro Employees and NASA
Post-Arrow Brain Drain from Canada
Canada's Gift to NASA
Owen Maynard
A quote from the book Apollo - The Race to the Moon
"As the Space Task Group's burden was threatening to overwhelm the entire project, the Canadian government unintentionally gave the American Space program its luckiest break since Wernher von Braun had surrendered to the Americans...while little public recognition was ever granted the Canadians their contribution was incalculable to the people within the programs. One of the group's top American engineers even claimed that the Canadians had it all over us in many areas
Hey I'm not saying that the Canadians did it all and there weren't any great and brilliant Americans working on the projects. Obviously there were. But no nation got into space by it's own efforts alone. America included.
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
I've always thought that the Soviet/Russian/Kazahkstani space program was much more serious than the US media driven events. They spent the last ten years maintaining a continuous human presence in space. Yes, I know Mir is not functioning any more, and yeah, it got pretty shaky up there towards the end, but what they achieved there remains the single most important and impressive aspect of any space program that there's been so far.
The Chinese should be congratulated n what they've achieved just recently, and hopefully they'll rise to the challenges of having people live in space too.
-- "This is the Space Age, and we are Here To Go" - W.S.Burroughs
I'm pleased and impressed that China has entered club of spacefaring nations. I'm also thinking: forget "Hilton in space", how about "Happy Good Luck House, Chinese food to eat in or take out" ;-D
It could be at the US' expense. If you think about it, this is a perfect opportunity for China to gain an advantage in the world by sending weapons into space. Granted, this is probably a long time off, but it's possible.
:)
Still, I don't think we should be trying to stop them from space exploration. If you ask me, I think any progress is good progress. I think Charles Babbage once said something like, "Whatever can be done, will be done. There's no stopping progress." Those aren't the exact words but it's something along those lines.
Yes, but there was a differnt treaty which forbid the US of Russia from placing offensive weapons in space regardless of detonation
Marriage is the "pseudo-ethics" that cloaks the messy truth of sexuality in the raiment of propriety -- it's "Don't Ask,
I'm afraid to break the news to you, but that would NOT mean China is only the third country to send austronauts to space. If they were successful, it would make China the third country to send astronauts to space in their own space shuttle. I'm absolutely positively sure that us Canadians have sent our own austronauts into space in NASA space shuttles, and it's possible that other countries also have similar partnerships between their space programs and either the U.S. or Russia.
Maybe that's what we should do with Microsoft!
Split them into four divisions, hand one over to Sun, one to IBM, one to Apple, and one to Oracle.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
From what I understand things in cuba were so bad for the common person, under batista, that any leader who actually cared about the wellbeing of the people couldnt help but drastically improve things. That is probably the best part about cuba is I beleave that Castro actually gives a shit about the average cuban. How many other leaders can you say that about? In fact if this country ever stoped holding its 30 year old grudge against castro then cuba would probably become the best place on earth to live. at least untill castro dies.
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth.
I don't believe that a lot of the people on this board are blaming Clinton for the Chinese being able to launch a vehicle into space.
I don't believe it because I know that a lot of them also think the US encryption export rules are stupid, and most people think they're stupid because the information is going to get out anyway, that the rules serve no purpose.
I agree with that; they don't. Information will get out. It will leak, or it will be independently discovered, or it will be reverse engineered from observation. Do you think that this applies only to encryption? It does not. It's something that always occurs at the nexus of knowledge and human nature.
I think a lot of people know this, and I am disappointed that a lot of people disregard what they know so that they can preserve an opportunity to bash the Chinese and/or Clinton.
Get a life. Stop sitting there wishing that a fifth of the world's population would live in the aerospatial dark ages just because you don't like them, or because it doesn't match up with your political agenda. They won't, and that's a good thing.
-k. ^-^ ^D
It looks a lot like a slightly scaled-up Soyuz. This is no passing resemblance. I'd hazard a guess that Shenzhou will preform very simliarly to Soyuz.
This post is a bit long but please bear with me. The nice thing about Russia's own Soyuz spacecraft is that the technology is very mature and reliable. After 30 years of operation a Soyuz or Progress flight is a walk in the park, logistics-wise. Although Soyuz has its limitations we're able to depend on it and pull off missions with a minium of effort. However, the economical and political situations in Russia and Kazakhstan are making Soyuz ops quite awkward.
Without support from Progress and Soyuz flights the International Space Station f*cked. The ISS is hopelessly bogged down in bureaucracy and political cocksucking.
Shenzhou is a brand new (unproven) spacecraft that merely resembles Soyuz in the same way that Buran resembles the shuttle orbiter. It also hails from red China. China has a lot of bugs to work out and lots of experience yet to gain. If you ignore the political and economic factors, Soyuz still wins over Shenzhou, IMHO.
China's new spacecraft is coming at a very interesting point in history. The International Space station depends on flights from Soyuz and Progress spacecraft. Progress-M's will be used heavily for resupply and Soyuz-TM's will be the only emergency lifeboat available until the X-38/Crew Rescue Vehicle comes online in 2006.
The US has been extra-friendly with China recently. I don't think that China is the kind of nation the US should be favoring. Their human-right abuses are well known. Despite that, I can forsee a future where NASA and China team up to complete the International Space Station. It goes like this:
Scary, eh? Yeah, I know it's only hypothetical. NASA showed poor judgement, IMHO, by depending on the Russians so heavily. We knew that they have lots of problems of their own besides flying rockets. The ISS has been a white elephant for over a decade. Only problem is, now we've got components on orbit and the world is watching and waiting for it to get built.
Ever hear of Calculus? Not invented by an American. Also: Penicillin, Reletivity, HTML, the computer, paper, gunpowder, the car (despite what you said) - infact nothing is invented in America, or anywhere else, from science that is solely the possesion of that country. Some countries have a history and culture that enables rapid development and change, and in this area the US has excelled for 100 years. But that can change.
As far as "trusting China", the original party was right, we don't. TO be more precise, we don't trust the Chinese Communist Party, and I feel we are right not to. They've never done anything for us. On the other hand, that 28 year old kid in Shanghai with a cell phone attached to his head, trying to figure out how to put together his next deal, him I trust. I understand him, and I know what he'll do if given the opportunity. And he will do well, for the world and for China if he's allowed to follow his instincts.
Check out this website
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
Do you have anything to back up your statements,
or is this just racism speaking? Space scientists
in America after World War II included some prominent
ex-nazis from Germany. Does this mean it's hilarious
to claim that the space shuttle was developed by US
scientists?
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
The point is, their government doesn't really like us at all.
You know what? MOST governments, including most Western European ones.. hell.. even most citizens of most countries.. don't like the US government very much at all, and I think they're completely justified.
China pretty much keeps to themselves. Sure, there are internal human rights violations, and that's a problem, but at least China's not stomping around the world violating other countries' citizens' rights.
So yeah, China doesn't like the US government very much.. it's because no one likes the US government very much.
As I said before, the people don't have control over the government, do they?
That's a really naive statement. Just because the government does bad things certainly does NOT mean they are not at all accountable to the people. They are. Ultimately, making your people happy is the best way to stay in power. Why do you think China has been slowly but surely progressing to be more open both economically and (yes) politically? It's because that's what the people want.. it's because that's how people are made happier.
Freedom of speech in China still needs work, but it has improved greatly since 1989. Those students who protested DID have an effect. The government isn't going to just agree to all demands outright, but they are slowly implementing the changes that people want.
(Before you say so, yes, there are some areas where the government won't budge, like Tibet. But that doesn't mean they haven't been improving in other areas.)
The compariason between the PRC and modern Germany is pretty absurd. First of all WWII ended over 50 years ago, after the end of the war Germany was partitioned off into four sections (the US, the UK and France each had a chunk of what became West Germany, the USSR had East Germany) most of the Nazi power structure was hung at Nuremburg or sentenced to life in prison a whole new government was established and thanks in part to the Marshall plan West Germany was rebuilt very quickly and humanely after the war. Currently Germany has very strict anti-facism laws and every German I've spoken with is deeply ashamed by the atrocities commited by the Nazi's. It seems to me that same PRC that invaded Tibet, sent troops to Korea, sent tanks against unarmed students in Tiamimen (sp?) square and has commited just about every human rights violation possible is still in power.
It seems that there really is no grounds for comparison between the two, until the Communist power structure has been ousted and a democratic government established, with no connections to the old power base, can you rightfully compare modern Germany to the PRC. However if you were trying to compare modern China to Nazi Germany I think you've got an excellent point.
"Listen: We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" - Kurt Vonnegut
It seems to me that China could buy all the rocket technology it needs to put a man in orbit from the former Soviet Union. Maybe they'll cut a deal for MIR, too.
Don't know about Europe, Japan, etc. but after the Toshiba 3 axis NC flap who knows?
As far as I can tell the concept of 'secret technology' is an oxymoron. A fellow I know by the name of Ari Phillips published a working design for an A-bomb when he was a teenager - based on declassified documents he found in various libraries. Created quite a stir, it did.
Can't put the worms back in the can oh no!
Hey, let's put export controls on strong crypto! That will stop the drug runners, commie pinkos, Democrats, tax cheats, the Michigan Militia, Posse Comitatus and all those heathens terrorists from sending coded transmissions!
Yeah, right.
What are you so upset about? Isn't the red menace what made the republican party so great? Wasn't living in fear of imminent death the best thing to ever happen to america? Lets start another paranoid demented stage in america's history.
There is a Carl Sandburg poem that I have hanging on my cubicle wall; it pretty much sums up what you are trying to say. I use it to remind me that power is not eternal. The subjects of an empire must be eternally vigilant if they want their empire to last eternally; a lot of things can happen to destroy it.
Anyway it goes something like this; I am reciting from memory since I am not near my cube right now:
It has happened before;
Strong men put up a city, and got a nation together,
and paid singers to sing, and women to warble:
This is the greatest city, the greatest nation,
Nothing like us ever was.
And while the singers sang, and the strong men listened,
And paid the singers well, and felt good about it all,
There were rats and lizards who listened.
And the only listeners left, now, are the rats and the lizards.
And there are crows, crying: "Caw! Caw!"
Bringing mud and sticks, building a nest
On the doors where the panels were cedar
And the strips on the panels were gold
And the golden girls came singing,
"We are the greatest city, the greatest nation,
Nothing like us ever was.
Now having said this, I do not believe that the Chinese space program poses a serious threat to the American empire. China will not be a serious military threat for at least 25 years, assuming that no great disaster occurs here and no technological leap occurs there. The future of mankind lies in space, and the more people we have sticking their heads up there the better it will be for all of our (grand?) children.
The absolute best thing that could happen would be that a competitive space industry based upon the pursuit of the profit motive would spring up overnight, launching us into the true space age. IMHO, of course, but I would like to walk on Mars someday and I don't see it happening in an era of socialized space exploration.
(btw, I went to an American school and I understood your translation of "land of islam". Most other people I have just asked in an impromptu poll knew as well... most even correctly identified Saladin, Kerbogha, and Kulavan.)
Scudder
... and there is no doubt, that one day he will be
where the eye of his telescope has already been
you forget that we have astronauts that have or will command the shuttle.
China has been launching satellites for a while now. This is only the first launch of their manned spacecraft, but without an occupant. I am surprised no one else has noted this error.
--
Infuriate left and right
You're trying to tell us that the Chinese spent all that time pilfering secrets from America's top-secret government-funded research laboratories, and the only secrets they stole were for technology the United States' own space program abandoned almost 30 years ago? What the holy hell are you on about?
Please, go back to making Monica Lewinsky jokes or something. God knows, we could use more of those!
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Oh, really? I wonder if you'll be singing the same song when "Chinese scientists" suddenly develop Keyhole-type spy satellites and Star Wars type defenses that remarkably resemble the work done in the U.S. in the 1980's (and that coincidentally after numerous additional cases of espionage and "technology exchange" with borderline treasonous U.S. companies). What happens when the Chinese start selling these capabilities to our pals in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, etc. etc.
The world is a much more dangerous place because of this, and responsibility for this rests in large part with our brilliant leaders and strategists.
"I think sitting in front of the screen all day has distorted your version of reality and completely fucked up
your brain. You would still be using punch cards if it weren't for the development of military technology and
space technology during the cold war and the space race. The instinct to SURVIVE drives technology and
science forward. Why don't you go farm instead."
You may be right.
But I wasn't saying that it was all BAD. I was just saying that it's silly and unrealistic to believe that lofty goals of the "advancement of science" were the main force at work in the space race/cold war. When you dig down to it, yes, it WAS the instinct to SURVIVE, but when you take that to extremes, you start to think thinks like, gee it'd be nice if I ruled the world. Then I could truly optimize this survival thing.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
The article is a little vague. Did this craft come down on water or dry land? They mention parachutes and retro-rockets and resemblance to Apollo. But the landing was within China, where I wouldn't think there'd be a large enough body of water to be safe. Anyone know?
What you fail to recognize is that the "Long March" rockets would blow up on a very precise and regular basis right up until U.S. aerospace companies helped them out with new technology.
Well no, supposedly this technology is pretty much the same technology that the Russians and the US used on the 60s. Though I wouldn't put the Chinese beyond "stealing" our technology, I see no reason to believe that this technology necessarily had to come from us directly. Afterall, there was significant technology transfer from the Russia, and alot of the 60s technology is pretty much common knowledge now. Furthermore, the Chinese have some excellent engineers, and significant pockets of technological development.
If you read Insight Magazine (website at http://www.insightmag.com/), then you will have seen numerous reports on how poor security (and worse) has allowed a lot of space technology to leave the US for China.
As for the space shuttle, it's a pretty safe bet that it was developed by the US. Don't forget that it's like the 4th generation of US rocketry.
wouldnt you think that mainland china has better things to spend their money in rather than sending men into space, something that the americans and russians have already done. Yes, i agree it will help the economy of the country, but then again it didnt help russia. as posted in other submissions, russia built the mir space station, which is a piece of metal flying around the earth now....who knows that china wants to do, much less what they want to put up in space...i would think china's government would want to improve the life quality of chinas people.
No doubt Chnese rocketry was influenced by the Amricans, the Russians, the Germans, and perhaps, gasp, the Chinese, who invented rocketry centuries ago... :)
I just keep thinking about fireworks.. and.. didn't the chinese invent those? or.. develop a lot of the technology that became those?
Insert mind here.
Yuri almost died during his decent when his Vostok service module didn't detach properly.
Leonov almost died while trying to get back into Vokshod II...his space suit had ballooned up to the point where he didn't fit in the airlock. He had to partially deflate the suit to get back in.
Yup, not to mention the first satellite in orbit, the first probes to the Moon and most planets, the first space station...
Sputnik I didn't return any useful scientific data AT all. It was a completely useless design forced on Korolev by Kruschev(how do you spell that, anyway). Korolev wanted to wait for what became Sputnik II to be completed. On the other hand, Explorer I discovered the van allen radation belts, something even Sputnik II missed.
In terms of space probes: most soviet "firsts" in this area returned almost no useful data. They spent so much time and energy on being first that the spacecraft themselves were almost universally useless.
One must also remember that the soviets (And the russians since) have never made it out of the inner solar system. Their dislike of computer technology has prevented them from being able to plot the low-energy sling-shot trajectories required to fling spacecraft out to the outer planets. Of course the US has sent 3 or 4 generations of spacecraft out of the inner solar system.
So, in the end, they have only sent probes to the moon, mars, and venus. While the US has been to every planet apart from Pluto.
Finally, the first crew of their first useful (they had one or two failed launches) space station died on reentry.
So the question becomes: Yeah, they were first in some things during the early days of the space age, but most of their firsts either returned no information or almost killed their occupants; can they really be said to have lead the space race in any useful sense?
Here's a little reality check:
Duh.
I welcome China to the small club of nations capably of contributing to space research. I'm sure they had help in doing so (like everyone else has had) and that they will use it mainly for peaceful purposes (like everyone else, although I head that the US have a lot of .. oh well).
(this is not flamebait, this is well needed insightfulness ... It's scary to see so many americans here who haven't got a clue - isn't Slashdot supposed to be a community of _intelligent_ people?)
it's in my head
This is precisly the point. And who authorised U.S. aerospace companys to do this?
pervident clinton, that's who. ummm oh yea..and um..who's this Rush guy?
Busted. No one said his name was Rush. :) Too bad for you that the conservatives are so fractured this campaign season.
We don't know for a fact where the chineese got this technology. It's quite possible that they developed it themselves. In the past few years, they have shown great desire to catch up in the technological world. They've been working on programs to use the internet, stealing secret technologies from us, and while we sit here making jokes about them and the bum in the whitehouse our own space agency if working on a plan to send our children's names to Mars(http://spacekids.hq.nasa.gov/2001/). How cute!
:-)
Why did we win the Gulf War? We were so far advanced from the Iraquis that they didn't stand a chance. That was when we realized we have to stay ahead(or at least some of us did). I would say that we should keep this advantage. Hopefully now that we have a little competition, our own ingenuity will kick in and start cranking out some cool new stuff.
Anyway, back to China...They're becomming a bigger threat to us now that they can send manned missions into space (don't ask me how, that just sounded good). We need to stop lolly-gagging around in the China-policy area, and stop ingoring everything they do against us and create a policy to keep them in check. My two cents
... when you don't have the industrial-financial base to support it. It takes a heck of capital, both physical (plants, machinery, materials) and human (know-how, skills, training) to turn the ideas (stolen or otherwise) into real actual working machines. The US had to go nearly $6 trillion into debt to fund the Cold War (accumulation of deficits from Korean, Vietnam and various anti-communist insurgencies) and even then it was a rather close thing that they didn't go bankrupt before Russia did. And selling off Mickey Mouse hats and movies to the rest of the world is not going to pay this off either.
:-)
If you look at China (how many people here have actually visited that place?) you'd still find mud houses (strangely enough sitting next to a modern satellite equiped apartment block) in central Beijing. Their energy needs are still powered by high suphur content coal (one reason why interior cities are so polluted). And too many of their really good technical people leave and/or are snatched up by Western firms. Despite the war-mongering vote chasing by Bush, China is still pretty much an agarian society with much agriculture still being doing by hand. People forget that the US war machine is funded by taxes (40% of GDP?) from realatively high incomes (by world standards) that goes to pay for all those nicy shiny missiles (which have to be replaced after shooting up the reminants of Serbian infrastructure) and associated pork-barrelling. In fact some people would claim that the US economy is still on a war footing.
It is only now that resources are being released back into the civilian sector that you see such advances in communications (CDMA was originally a military application) and software. China's level of technical skill is comparatively poor and while they may be a world power by 2050, at the moment it is not exactly in a state to wave any sticks. IMHO, the US has more worries about trying to keep moral high and designing attractive careers for its own military personnel than worrying about any other army on the earth which they could beat hansomely (given enough warning) except the Isrealiis who have a (justifiably) paranoid and professional army. In other words, if you're Chinese and have a hankering for violence, the best idea is to give up now, emigrate to the US and learn how to play Quake.
LL
Zontar The Mindless,
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
The ones that are back in stumblebum status are the ones that have made a radical shift to a free market/democratic society. China may be using a free market model for many things, but it is still deeply socialist, much more so than any European country.
Personally, I agree that Allende's regime would probably have been an economic disaster for a number of reasons if he had implemented the policies he had initially proposed, but let's be honest - he didn't fall, he was pushed, before he had any real chance to do much of *anything,* by Pinochet and the CIA.
I'm not an apologist for the the 20th century communist state, by any means, but they myths currently being propagated about the failures of socialism overlook these basic facts:
1. American success is primarly a product of World War Two, not of the inherent value of the capitalist system. George S. Kennan described the situation best - at the end of WW2, the US directly controlled about half of the world's wealth, and the role of US geopolitics was to maintain that precarious imbalance.
2. Given that, the socialist economies of the eastern bloc performed amazing things in light of the ongoing hostility of the US. 3rd world countries that aligned themselves more closely with the US did not do as well, since, sadly, it was their lot to preserve the imbalance mentioned by Kennan, by providing cheap labor and natural resources. The disasters of the socialist economies has more to do with centralization and autocracy than anything else - viz. the disastrous agricultural projects of the 70's in the USSR, largely the result of fantasies of Moscow apparatchiks.
3. The liberalized economies of Latin America are only serving a small fraction of the economy. A recent article in Latin Trade described how the Latin middle class, which American free market boosters had predicted would mushroom over the bast 10+ years of free-market policies, has been in crisis and dwindling, with the wealth of the upper classes expanding (and often moved offshore) and the poor remaining solidly poor. The victory of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and the renewed vigor of Latin leftists parties in the last couple years, now with growing middle class support (which is always fortunate, since it keeps these parties sensible, the governments democratic, and the economies mixed,) is a result of the dawning realization that the majority of Latin Americans are simply not meant to benefit from the implementation of free market policies.
The perv joke I made (We can blame Pervident er um president Clinton) has nothing to do with Ms. Lewinski.
It's refers to his perverted view of himself above the good of the country and the laws we all live by.
In the case of this story, it's his perverted view of ignoring the source of contributions to the DNC, and relaxing export resrictions.
Isn't it just like a liberal to assume that it's 'about the sex' when it's the policy, stupid.
Einstein did NOT develop the Atom bomb. You might say he sparked it, and layed __some_ of the fundamental groundwork. Though the development of the Atom bomb was probably inevitable, the Manhattan project was something special. The source of the intellect (e.g., Jewish Germans during WWII) is of little relevance; it is the forces that fostered the development that sets us apart.
I'm not convinced that societies/government, such as China and the USSR, are capable of such fundamental leaps in the scale of the manhattan project. In fact, The USSR did, after all, feel the need to steal our technology. Very little technological advancement came out of the USSR in its prime. The same can be said for China of yesterday. However, I believe China is making fundamental changes towards a more free and open society and towards capitalism, as they approach this, they will become the next superpower.
I'm not sure what all the ruckus is about.
China launched a capsule that might carry people into space. Only 38 years after the Soviets and Americans did it.
Lets not forget that China was even more ravaged by WW2 and the Revolution than the Soviet Union was by the Nazis.
Also lets not forget that the technology exchanges between the US and Chinese started with President Bush, although more was exchanged during the Clinton administration, actually it's all because of that stupid/bankrupt Iridium phone system.
Also in a country with a land distribution problem such as Chile was, where few people owned the land and the remaining rural population had virtually become slaves (see 'House of Spirits' film) I think it's the property model itself which needs violence to be enforced, rather than the change of the system. Imagine, for instance, an indian farmer keeping a bit more of the food he grew than what he needs to survive. Hardly violent. On the other hand, the police which will throw him out of the land that his family has been living on for generations, is using violent force.
I find it unlikely that China will have the resources to build Star Wars-style weaponry, even on a limited scale. Regan pretty much bankrupted the States trying, and still never got so much as an orbital abm laser. The real concern is American military types (including the military industial corps) who will overinflate the threat of such weaponry to get themselves a new cold war.
Intolerant people should be shot.
Wonderful. Next we'll have huge banners of Maoix (If you don't install our distro, you'll never see your family again!) floating over the US. Maybe *that's* what they were talking about when they said they were going to be involved in cyberwarfare...
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Its really disturbing to see that you Americans think that China is *always* up to no good. Its so hypocritical that a nation that uses its power to its own benefit (and no one elses) to say that China is now doing something wrong by putting something in space.
I live in Hong Kong, and sometimes you people amaze me by how narrow-minded you are.
You guys need to wake up from the American dream and face the reality of the real world.
Go ahead, moderate me down, but you all know its true.
Some corrections to be made... One, Reagan saves the country a lot of money by preventing us from having to maintain the cold war for another 10 or 20 years. This is not an opinion, it comes from recent statements made by former senior russian officials. All of them credit Reagan with the end to the cold war. Had Reagan not acted as he did we'd still be spending inordinate amounts of money on defense and related programs. Two, The threat IS the weaponry, not the military types. You're right in thinking that this may develop into another Cold War. I hope that is as far as it goes. All china needs to do to put a nuke on your doorstep is swap payloads. Manned space flight and ICBMs are built on the same platform. This is a huge threat, regardless of how much the military types stand to gain.
Politics aside, why isn't every body celebrating the fact that humans are now one more step to being universally smarter, stronger and better?
Stolen technology? The reason science and technology has even developed to this stage is BECAUSE knowledge is shared. Rejoice to the fact that what should have happened happened.
Now that comment aside, I personally believe that its very hard to get correct news in the United States. Soon after Chinese ambasey bombing(be it intenional or not.) "news" surfaced that Taiwanese scienteist stole secret information for PRC. The week that Unite States refused to sign the nulcear test ban treaty, it was "discovered" that an boeing leaks information to China that can help it to deploy neuclear weapon. I've seen at least 3 reports of Chinese satelite launch crash in the US news. But NEVER ONCE a report of sucess. Granted, sucess happen so often that its not even news worthy, but for those that is still mostly disconnected with China, you think that Chinese steals BECAUSE you don't know what lead up to this sudden sucess. If I didn't know how about the centuries humans spent learning and experimenting, I'd think that modern science was left by UFO's or something.
In any case, this is of course not to say that China couldn't have done some thing underhandedly. Which country doesn't? The truth is survival first, you do what you have to. No one has THE right to survival--it, unfortunately is, just every one for him self. (You just don't hear about some country's)
Last comment, as many have pointed out. United States citizens should not be so happy that US is so far ahead of the rest of the world. It should be thankful for all the telents they provided US with. There are a LOT of Chinese people working in American research labs and indistries to make it better. Don't hurt them too much.
in this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_ 480000/480710.stm ) article just a month ago, the
BBC (which is usually very accurate) said,
"China's real intentions are confused with speculation by
scientists who can be misunderstood by both China's
internal press and the western media. Most observers with
a realistic understanding of China's technical capabilities
do not expect it to put a man into orbit until around 2005."
Intriguing. They embrace Linux as their official OS, and shortly after, they are able to enter space.
More Kubrick coming true.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
An example of this sentiment is present in the results of the Space Generation Forum, a meeting of 200+ young aerospace professionals from around the world.
The engineers and professionals that built Apollo and all the technology from that era, are now retiring. Combined with the Budget cuts from governments lowering infrastructure commitments, the average age of the Aerospace profession is dropping (now about 30, with many 25-30).
Within this age group, a group that matured with the Internet explosion, international cooperation is a general assumption to the success of humankind. Witness the establishment of the International Space University in the past 10 years.
It is a shame that the media and politicians are emphasizing the conflict between our countries. When you attend a professional conference about advances in Space Technology, the Chinese participation is just as interesting and inspiring as the latest mission from JPL. This work is from the sweat off the back of young professionals, and I'll bet that a fair few of them read slashdot too.
So, please remember that those who build this are the same as us. They have the same dreams of a united humanity pushing the frontiers of space. I'm not going to comment about politicians or media, because I don't understand them.
One final thing... I'm hoping that the Chinese will have enough success with their manned space activity that they will dock with MIR, and claim squatters rights. I mean, if they want to maintain it ... why not. It's currently scrap.
Oh, and where do I send my resume. :-)
actually, china was included in the above-ground test ban treaty signed by the US and USSR so many years ago. detonations of nuclear devices in space by china are therefore a violation of this treaty.
>And as you may know, it took European inventiveness to put a practical use to paper, i.e. the printing press that actually isn't true. believe it or not, the chinese actually invented the first printing press, too. europeans are responsible for movable type, not the printing press itself. and, johannes gutenberg, who is generally thought to have invented moveable type, didn't. he merely invented a new alloy used in movable type blocks. it's actually this kind of egoistic attitude not based on fact that causes a lot of countries to think of the US as a nation of belligerent hegemonists: "we made everything." so untrue.
I think you also overestimate the ability of the US to go it alone. In many fields, the majority of scientists and engineers in the US are foreign born. They come here because the US government lets them, because some places in the US are nice to live, because a lot of their colleagues came here before, because the standard of living is pretty good for them, and because the US government still has some of the most generous government funding for research and development in the world.
Furthermore, the US space program is based on a vigorous exchange of ideas with other countries, often even joint projects. The little bit of information the Chinese may have wrested from some US contractors probably pales in comparison. The only difference is that the US has branded that exchange of ideas "espionage" in the case of China, while it is completely acceptable when it happens, say, between a French contractor and a US space company.
Restrictions on what information can be shared with China may well make sense from a military point of view. But underestimating the Chinese or overestimating the US are both dangerous mistakes and will likely lead to poor policy decisions in the US in the future.
Now that that is out of the way.. I think this is excellent news because it will mean more funding for our space program! Our irrational paranoia does have it's advantages! Do you think we would have ever gone to the moon if it wasn't for Russia?
The article was written by the BBC, stop with this anti-US crap that has become so popular these days.
A manned module and an ICBM is it's payload.
Not to be too much of a stickler for detail, but an ICBM (Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile) isn't a payload so much as a delivery system. Nowadays, the payload of an ICBM is usually a group of warheads ("Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles" [MIRV] for the military acronym aficionados [MAA] out there). Obviously this doesn't affect your point at all. I'm just feeling pedantic this morning.
Take note: China can put a nuke on your doorstep.
I doubt that whatever perceived deterrent capacity we have is likely to be any less effective against China than it was against them Rooskies.
Anyhow, putting something in orbit is tougher than delivering a warhead. Didn't we and them Rooskies both have ICBM's before orbital stuff? Even if not -- and I'm probably wrong -- we and they and everybody have always had bombers, submarines, and whatnot. The Chinese have most likely been able to put little bundles of nuclear joy on people's doorsteps for decades now. Capability does not necessitate use, or at least it hasn't so far. We're still the only nation that ever did use nukes, but it's been more than fifty years since then and we haven't done it again, and nobody else ever bothered at all. Nobody really needs a world-encircling Doomsday Shroud, y'know? When you strip away the paranoid nationalist rhetoric and the Pharaonic/Reaganomic urge to overspend fantastically on redundant and/or useless weapons, the deterrence thing is eminently sensible.
I do, however, have a few words in favor of your concerns: After decades of Cold War paranoia, many Americans had become hardened paranoia addicts, and since the Soviet Union crapped out they've had to seek their fix elsewhere, mostly by developing paranoid systems of belief about the federal government. It might be a refreshing change of pace for them and for the rest of us if they were to devote themselves to fearing China for a while. "A change is as good as a rest", as Brendan Behan used to say. On the other hand, it might be even nicer if they kicked the habit entirely.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
None of the coverage I have read up to this point has picked up on the real signifigance of this story. A manned module and an ICBM is it's payload.
Yesterday, China put the world on notice that it can now strike anywhere in the world within half an hour.
All the other possibilities for China are minor side effects of this ability. Weapons in space, trips to Mars, etc. are not the focus of developing rocket technology.
Take note: China can put a nuke on your doorstep.
http://solar.rtd.utk.edu/~mwa de/articles/chidoors.htm
Cheers,
-j.
I also work with a lot of foreign nationals in my job here in the US. Most of the ones I know, especially those from places like the UK or India, have not come to the USA because "we have the least repressive gov't" but because of MONEY MONEY MONEY. It's easier to make more of it here. UK and India both have relatively free governments, and from their point of view, the USA is often more restrictive than their home countries due to immigration and tax regulations.
The 'freedom' aspect has been a bit overemphasized (propogandized?) throught the story of immigration to America. For most people throughout history, America has been a place to create wealth. End of story. Of course, it often happens that a free environment is the most conducive to producing wealth, but that is purely a lucky side effect.
Actually, you are wrong. The USA *did* have rocket technology during WWII; the reason they "acquistioned" German rocket scientists was to keep them from falling into Soviet hands.
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"