Slashdot Mirror
Corel Dropping WINE?
Nathan Ehresman writes "According to this "Corel Corporation will use GraphOn's Bridges(TM) software to allow access to Windows applications from Corel's(R) Linux desktops." Does this mean Corel is dropping support of WINE? " I sure hope not. They've put a lot of effort in to the project, and I think they raised a lot of peoples hopes and expectations...
They're just hedging their bets. (I hope.) WINE is still far from usable by non-techs, and Corel presumably need to be able to include something. My guess is that what they're -really- doing is saying (to themselves) "Ok, if WINE passes muster, we'll use that. If not, we've now got this alternative that we can throw in instead, with no loss of face." Personally, if that -is- the case, I'd say it's very pragmatic, and probably sensible, but in the long term, they're better off concentrating on WINE, if for no other reason than they have a measure of influence over WINE, and so can be sure that what they want gets implemented. They can't, for 3rd-party, closed-source software.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Can anyone comment on how stable and usable this graph-on product is?
So, I downloaded the ISO image and installed it on a box to check it out. The install, was _really_ easy, however I wish it had gone ahead and had the network setup as part of the install.
I've gotten used to gnome on the Red Hat boxes I use, so it was intersting to revisit KDE - sure has come a ways since I last used it 9 months ago.
This is pretty supreficial, but I wish that corel had made the default backgrounds a little snazzier than just solid colors - assumedly this is going to be many consumers first foray into linux - be good to get some 'Oohh, pretty's' right off the bat..
Anyway, I'm kind of puzzled that Corels stock isn't moving in a more positive manner right now. Thoughts? Insights?
I certainly hope not! GraphOn's products seem to be competitive with Windows Terminal Server, not WINE. Bridges might provide a nice, if closed source, complement to WINE. And it would be nice to see a Linux-based alternative to Terminal Server for all those up-and-coming ASPs to consider.
-- "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." - R.A.H.
One can't quite help but suspect these guys might be trying to ride some of the current publicity around Linux, especially that generated by Comdex.
I'd personally wait until Corel makes some sort of announcement themselves before taking this one from GraphOn with anything but a large grain of salt.
-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-
My mom's going to kick you in the face!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what the article describes about bridges, it's basically allowing Windows apps to display their stuff on a Linux desktop via some kind of connection (modem, network, etc.). Doesn't this mean that the Windows app will still need to run on a Windows box somewhere? I don't know if that many users can afford to have two boxes just for the sake of running Windows apps on Corel Linux.
OTOH WINE lets you run Windows apps from the same box... a much more preferable solution for the typical PC user, I'd think.
mikre he sophia he tou Mikrosophou.
If Corel drops support, it's not the end of the world: It's just the sign of a struggling business making a tough business decision. The work they've put into the project should be remembered & respected - but it will go on with or without them.
-Stu
Corel is using Wine to port their applications to Linux. I've always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that they weren't interested in Windows emulation, just porting their own apps using the Wine API.
GraphOn produces networking products, not Windows emulation. This is basically a Windows version of X-Windows.
So:
To port Corel Office to Linux -> Wine
To run Windows apps remotely with the display on a Linux box -> GraphOn
To run Windows apps locally on a Linux box -> Wine
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
Corel wants Wine mainly for winelib, which allows it to build Linux native executable versions from its existing Windows codebase with a minimum of fuss.
GraphOn's Bridges allows you to run Windows applications on a remote server, and have them displayed locally (much like X clients). Unless Corel has suddenly dropped the licensed-software model in favour of "application rentals" from the desktop, which would be a pretty rash move even by Corel's standards, I really don't see the "threat" here.
Steve 'Nephtes' Freeland | Okay, so maybe I'm a tiny itty
I'm alittle suprised - this really isn't "news" - it's just idle speculation. It shouldn't have been posted to /. unless one of the WINE developers came here and said Corel was backing off, not being as active on the lists, etc. All that posting this is gonna do is put corel in an (undeserved) bad light. Come on guys - let's do alittle backgrounding first before we post stuff like this. Maybe slashdot needs an opinion / rumor section, 'cuz alot of people are going to hype up the significance of this.
--
The article does not indicate anything about WINE being downright eliminated, only that the GraphOn software will get added in.
It is not self-evident that WINE becomes of no value; a major value to WINE to Corel should in permitting Win32 software to be recompiled using libwine so that they may be deployed as native Linux applications.
In contrast, the GraphOn Linux Client to Bridges software is not a tool to allow Windows software to run on Linux; it is merely a tool to allow Windows software to run on Windows NT, and then display on Linux.
Essentially, this provides the same sort of functionality as the Citrix ICA protocol, or Microsoft's Hydra.
What is particularly distressing is that this supports the GraphOn Patent for Remoting Windows Applications. But that does not appear to have anything to do with WINE...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Taking a look at GraphOn's Homepage you'll notice that they sell a kind of X object handler that can act as an in between from windows to ANY desktop (including Linux). It would seem to me, then, that this move is aimed towards competing with Sun's Star Portal and the likes (Microsoft's Web Office) etc... than it is at trying to get native code ported over.
This looks like a short term goal, Graphon is all about thin computing and NC's. Anyone think the Network Computer is alive?
Joseph Elwell.
However....
I do think we need some sort of emulation (like WINE) that will allow us to run Windows apps. Even better would be something that lets us compile Windows apps natively. PowerBuilder has that type of functionality--you can design a project and take the project file to any of the several platforms PowerBuilder runs on, and compile the program for that platform. I think they use Berlin libraries (correct me if I'm wrong) for all the GUI and system calls PB apps make, on the different Unix platforms they support. Unfortunately, Linux isn't one of those. :/
Bridges sounds like a decent app. From reading the article, I get the impression it is mainly used for deploying apps over the Internet, like what Sun wants to do with SO, and MS with Office, and Corel, I guess, with Corel Office. I don't know how this would affect local installs (i.e., not running over the Internet)--presumably, they would still need a translation layer between the app and the OS. So perhaps this is an addition to the architecture, and not a dismissal of WINE.
Just my $.02
Matthew Vanecek For 93 million miles, there is nothing between the sun and my shadow except me. I'm always getting i
If this is true, then why would Corel spend money on such a product when they can get (virtually) the same functionality using VNC?
The only difference between what I understand Bridges to be and VNC is that VNC would put the entire desktop in a window on your Linux box while Bridges would only put the one application that you were running in that window.
VNC is a very solid application, that I've to run those windows applications that I still need while sitting at a Linux box. The only benefit I could possibly see in Bridges over VNC is that Bridges could (possibly) take advantage of the (semi) multi-user part of NT while VNC does not.
Anyone know anything that I'm missing here?
It would seem that Graph On doesn't even have a product out that allows Unixes to use Windows applications remotely. Looking through their product line you'll notice that all of their products communicate Linux/Unix applications to Windows Desktops or to Java clients. Anyone heard of an X server for windows? that's news to me.
Joseph Elwell.
Nice little gem:
GO-Joe
GO-Joe(TM) is the world's first thin server-based solution for accessing Unix and Linux applications, from virtually any Java-enabled desktop or device...
These guys should really look at VNC.
Corel initially supported WINE in a big way, Corel contributed back changes, Coral actively participated in development mailing lists. Today they have their complete internal tree (see this article) which they have not published so far. They are using WINE in the Corel/Linux distribution though. If WINE was GPL, then nobody could keep such proprietary enhancements to themselves. Corel can use, abuse and throw away WINE, leaving nothing for the WINE community but unecessary confusion. The BSD license is simply too naive for this world, and its inteded 'bigger freedom' actually results in more abuse! The sad fact is that freedom cannot be guaranteed without weapons, and the GPL is the protective 'weapon' to keep free code freed. Microsoft has analyzed this issue very accurately in the Halloween memos: the GPL is a 'next generation' license, much more 'dangerous' to Microsoft than the BSD license.
It's still not too late though - WINE could still be released under the GPL, which will prevent many types of abuses. We can only hope that WINE developers understand these issues.
--Coke
It dosen't seem like this is a big deal to me.
This allows remote running of windows apps
in a similar way to X (though not as good I'll
warrant since X was designed for networking from
the ground up)
For the home user though its pretty useless. It
sounds like you'd have to have a fairly beefy
application server to make it work. And for games
it's next to useless.
It seems to me that some of the biggest
improvements in Wine have been in getting
games to work.
Steve.
He wasn't terribly articulate perhaps, but he does have a very valid point. If patents continue to hamper innovation and development in the United States, places with less draconian patent legislation, or even just more responsible patent offices, will benefit. This could result in the United States falling quickly behind our overseas counterparts.
... :-)
Gratuitious MS-slam: It doesn't help that MS products are giving the US a reputation for producing shoddy software, either
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I don't think that we have much to worry about here. It seems to me that Bridges lets users run windows apps off of a windows box over a network and have them display on a Linux workstation. Wine, on the other hand, lets users run windows apps directly off the hard drive under a Linux environment. Two completely different functions for two completely different sets of tasks. I could see where each would be useful under certain circumstances. I'm really impressed with WINE thus far, and I hope that development continues. If MS were smart, they ought to help with WINE development to try to skirt anti-trust action ("see our apps do run on other OSs, we don't have an OS monopoly"). I'm still not able to run all the apps I'd like (have to use vmware for that), but still, alot of progress has been made with the WINE project, and I'm excited to see how it progresses
Everyone needs to do a little research before getting excited here.
First, Corel will not drop Wine any time in the near future. Wine is the most important part of Corel's business strategy over the next couple years. It allows them to port all their windows applications to Linux quickly and maintain these ports easily. This will be the first time Corel will improve its revenues in years, and it will be dramatic. From a revenue standpoint, I think Wine is more important to Corel than their new Corel Linux distro or the GraphOn partnership, at least in the short term. From a Linux user standpoint, it means we can all have a high-quality, stable office suite (and graphics suite) running natively under Linux very soon.
Graphon makes a line of products which allow software to run on a server running operating system Y by a client on a machine running OS Z, where Y and Z can be Windows, Unix/Linux, or Java. Obviously this is A GOOD THING, since it will help break the Microsoft monopoly and allow people more flexibility. It is also key for ASP's, which Sun and Microsoft are fighting for, but Graphon and Corel beat them to. Note that Corel originally wrote some of Graphon's products and traded it to Graphon earlier this year for 20% equity in Graphon. This is why Corel and Graphon have such a good relationship, which will be a good thing for anybody who wants to work outside of Microsoft's box.
As for GraphOn, Corel, Linux, and China - this is a good thing. It means a lot more people will be using Linux and a non-Microsoft office suite.
As for GraphOn's stupid patent on X clients on Windows, they aren't the first company to have a very dumb and indefendable patent.
Today's press release means that users of Corel Linux will be able to remotely run Windows applications on Corel Linux by connecting to a Windows application server. This is analogous to sitting at one Linux machine and logging into another to run a graphical application over X. Except in this case, you're sitting in front of Linux running some Windows app made by a company who doesn't care about Linux users and won't port to Linux. So, this too is A GOOD THING for Linux and Linux users:)
One last point: Anything which is bad for Microsoft is good for Corel. Corel is competing head to head with Microsoft on office suites which is the majority of Corel's revenue. Thus, anything which undermines Microsoft's monopoly will help Corel get market share. So Corel will happily help Linux, application serving, etc. even if it doesn't directly bring revenue to Corel just because every new Linux user is another person who may buy Corel Office instead of Microsoft Office. It is not clear that Corel will make any money off of its new Linux distribution, but they created a new Linux distro because they saw that no other distro was easy enough to use by most people. And they released their improvements (except 3rd party stuff) as GPL, since Corel wants people to use Linux, whether it is Corel Linux, Red Hat Linux, etc.
Dan
Nearly a year ago Corel sold GraphOn their technology for allowing remote access to Windows boxes in a platform neutral way. This announced agreement would appear to be based on that old event. Corel would presumably prefer it if you used Linux. But if you have a legacy Windows application that must be run, Corel wants that not to be a barrier.
:-)
Pluse Corel does partly own GraphOn, so what is good for GraphOn is good for Corel.
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Nearly a year ago Corel sold GraphOn their technology for allowing remote access to Windows boxes in a platform neutral way. This announced agreement would appear to be based on that old event. Corel would presumably prefer it if you used Linux. But if you have a legacy Windows application that must be run, Corel wants that not to be a barrier.
:-)
Pluse Corel does partly own GraphOn, so what is good for GraphOn is good for Corel.
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
hey, now wait a second.
that press release mentions nothing at all about corel abandoning wine. it simply says that it will include graphOn bridge for network applications on windows.
where did this 'corle dops wine' notion come from?
GraphOn's Product DOES exist.
You are right that it is not advertised on their Products page. This is probably because they first unveiled it last week at Comdex. Read today's press release. It WILL let people run Windows applications remotely from Unix/Linux/Windows/Java.
According to a previous press release, it will be available for Linux next month.
Dan
Actually, there's a few of them. Exceed (from Hummingbird), Excursion, XLink, MI/X from Micro Images. I also read in a slashdot discussion a while ago a mention of a free X server for Windows, but I don't remember anything about it.
I can't believe that so many of you people are hanging your hopes on a loser like Corel. Are you really that desperate to be able to run Windows apps on your computers? Imagine if all that development work had actually gone into producing decent apps instead of WINE itself -- which still doesn't seem like it will ever do better than a half-assed job on anything but a handful of quality Windows apps.
Whenever I see someone using WINE, I just want to slap 'em around and tell them to quit being such a cheapass and to go buy one of those dinky little $300 Windows boxes, which will still blow WINE away. I can't help but think that they're the kind of people who take a date to the Sizzler all-you-can-eat bar with "two-for-the-price-of-one" and free drinks coupons stuffed in his pockets.
It'd be sad if it weren't so freakin' funny.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
The GPL does NOT force a developer to release the source code, unless the product is being distributed. Even if Wine used the GPL, Corel has every right to maintain an internal-only tree. Their proprietary enhancements, as you call them, are intended ONLY FOR THEMSELVES.
Let me quote from the preamble:
For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights.
'Nuff said.
SEAL
.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
First off, this article is *totally* irresponsible on Justin's part for not doing any research. The GraphOn product has *NOTHING TO DO* with Wine. They aren't even competitive. Wine lets you run and port Windows apps. GraphOn's thing is a VNC clone that lets you display Windows apps remotely, while running them on real Windows.
:) Maybe that'll light a fire under the Opera guys ;-)
And secondly, for the love of Christ, *change the Wine topic icon*. The Wine project has had a real, official logo that's much nicer looking for 2 years now. See http://www.winehq.com/.
PS: about the browser wars: some other developers got MSIE 5 displaying images over the weekend, so now you can do real surfing in it
-Ian, in the Wine AUTHORS file and damn proud.
It was MI/X, at one point it was freeware, now it is shareware..
I still use the old freeware version at home..
I might be able to scare up a copy, if anyone's interested..
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
Ok, be warned... this comment is Inflammatory, Flamebait(tm), Troll babble and whatever else you wish to call it but I'm going to say it anyway because I've got a very strong opion about this (no matter what this does to my Karma)...
All this said, IMNSHO Wine is a failure and will not amount to anything worthwhile. I've been using Linux faithfully since 1996 and back in those days had high hopes for wine. Over 3 years later sad to say I still not cannot reliably run even the simplest 32 bit apps. Even some 16 bit apps like file mangler do not work flawlessly. Not to say wine doesn't amaze me at times, I was really intrigued to see it render a complete map in Delorme Street Atlas 5.0... but after that it just froze like a rock. Here are the reasons wine is a waste of time...
a) Microsoft changes their API constantly, no one really knows how it works except for them. Anyone ever wonder why Microsoft apps "just work better" on windows than the competition?
b) By the time wine is done, all those apps will have better native linux equivelents.
c) (similar to b) All the manpower being put into wine could better be spent cranking out similar applications for linux.
d)There are much simpler ways of running windows apps under the Linux environment... VMWare to name one. I'd really like to see the whole wine team scrap wine and start working on a freeware PC hardware emulator instead. That way I could run my BeOS apps in a window next to my windows apps (all under Linux).
And now, to divert for a moment to a slightly off-topic subject, one big thing that keeps most of us going back to windows is GAMES. At least *I* don't care if I never see Microsoft Office again, but I feel bad about leaving behind Need For Speed 4. Now... most big game companies develop for the PlayStation, Nintendo, etc, and then the PC. Fortunately, game system API's can't change every 5 minutes like Microsoft directX seems to be doing. Heres an oportunity folks to draw some serious attention to Linux as a gaming platform. As seen with Bleem (a game system emulator for windows)... a emulator with native bindings can produce rather good performance on a PC for console games.
Blender And Linux Fan
Is it stable ? In that case, I would really apreciate getting a copy .... Right now, I'm trying VNC client for windows and its X/Server for linux; it is a good product, and very stable, but it seems that a normal X/Win server would be better, but I hadn't been able to find one. Orlando
It's a way of allowing one to display remotely Windows applications.
That means that in order to use it, you have to have two boxes:
This is not an emulation; you require an NT box on which to run the application. No emulation involved.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
On the other hand, there is a sizable body of applications that need to be able to run on all of:
This actually makes it more possible to build a decent emulation; if Microsoft changes the APIs too much, particularly in the direction of "breaking if you're not doing things exactly the way we want you to today," this will break code that already needs to run on four (or more) distinct Microsoft platforms.
It wouldn't do to assume that this makes it necessarily easy to track MSFT changes, but it is certainly the case that it gets harder over time for MSFT to make changes.
The cool thing about WINE is that it potentially provides a way for some of that "bad old Windows code" to get redeployed using libWine to run natively on a UNIX. Obviously with some uncertainty as to the likelihood of that turning into billions of lines of UNIX-based apps...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Graphon and VNC do the same thing. We have been using VNC for a year --linux to windows and windows to Linux. It works well over a 100Mbs network, but is a dismal failure at 56K
. Graphon seems much more efficient-- at least on their demo it makes it feasible to run an application like Wordperfect reotely over 56K. That is pretty good and better than much of the competition.
If the products stay as they are more or less, we would use VNC in house, but use Graphon for our remote dial up users (who currently use PcAnyhwere as a windows to windows solution).
I could see a real potential for VNC to gain speed which would hurt Graphon. I can also see a potential for Graphon's patent to be a problem for VNC-- as I understand it Graphon bought a formerly existing patent that predated VNC.
I think Graphon has enough interest in the Linux community that patent problems could probably be worked out, if any exist.
http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/in dex.html
I LOVE this program....
Starnet sells XWin32, but the demo version of it works well. It exits after 2 hours of use, unless you fork over the cash (you can start it again, but your X apps will have to be restarted too.) One cool feature which I haven't seen in other non-unix X servers (not that I've tried many, but I've seen eXceed and Mi/X on a Mac) is that you can set it to open X windows as top level windows managed by MS Windoze's WM. (then you don't need to run a UNIX WM.) You can use the traditional one-big-window style, too. The only disadvantage to xwin32 is that it is non-free (speech). It's a nice free beer, though, even if you can only drink it for 2 hours at a time :)
#define X(x,y) x##y
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,
Because MS will for the forseeable future be maintaining Win32-based OSes with 2 radically different architectures but shipping apps that run on both, that limits what "innovations" they can do in user space. NT-only server apps are another story, but AFAIK there's no great desire for people to run IIS on Linux ;-)
corel does evil
using graphon to access windoze apps via the net
in a rent an app situation.now you can pay for the privelege just like a windoze user to use word.
i bet it catches on like disposable clothing,
horseback simulator for motorcycles or
freeze dried water.
perhaps they should rent a life
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Look, if the BSD license bothers you so much, and you have such a belief in a GPL license, then by all means take BSD licensed code and add a line of GPL code and GPL the BSD license code.
It would be MUCH more productive use of your time then comming onto slashdot and whining about the BSD licence. Go GPL the code, and make yourself happy.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
I was being Sarcastic about the Xserver for windows part...
;)
:)
I've been using Xoftware since 3.4. I remember when the tech guy laughed at me because he said I should upgrade to 6.0, now I think they're on something like 97.
Although it is nice for people to point out alternatives for those less informed.
Joseph Elwell.
I can read a press release just like the next guy. But have you seen their product? Remember LinuxOne? They had a press release too.
Point of fact: A press release does not a product make.
Saying "It WILL" do something only points out that sadly 'it DOESN'T' do anything right now.
Joseph Elwell.
I have been trying to get to cvs.winehq.com and www.winehq.com since Saturday, and I can't get to either one. I have tried from home, from work, and even from an old account at school. I'm amazed that there has been no comment on the news groups.
If you're looking for a "free" clone of VMWare, there's one called FreeMWare. This is headed by the creator of the shareware Bochs emulator, so I think he knows what he's doing. Apparently they're taking an "embrace and extend" approach to VMWare (don't know the details off hand). The code is still quite beta, so don't expect miracles (yet).
WAY 2 GO JUSTIN!!! U r00l d00d!!!! got DA sc00p!
gr33tz 2 d3v0
http://gammatron.weblogger.com