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New Intel uP for Ultra-Cheap PCs
mircea writes "This ZDNet story talks about a new chip from Intel, dubbed Timna, targeted at ultra-low-cost PCs. It is supposed to be .18 micron technology, with integrated video. There's also mention of 'appliances based on this chip, possibly running Linux'" And the 2nd page of the article mentions AMD and Cyrix (now owned by VIA), both of whom are also preparing ultra low-cost microprocessors.
Itanium, Pentium?
I like to see what keyboards look like over at Intel, their alphabet sure seems to have a lot fewer letters than the rest of us.
Dana
the Cubit is a wireless PC, in fact the PC is included in the LCD flat screen and you have keyboard and mouse wireless, also modem and LAN. It runs Linux, and costs less than 400$ as well.
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
At the 1999 embedded trade show, the keynote speaker pointed out that PC sales vs embedded sales was at a ratio of 2:1. By 2003, he said the ratio will be 1:3.
With embedded applications like speech recg., TCP/IP and other technologies, the embedded world is growing up to 32 bits fast. (for some reason a z80 or 8051 doesn't do TCP/IP well
Intel's move is them making sure they have IP cores (Intellectual property) that can be used in the embedded market. The high profit is in PCs, the volume is in embedded. So they'll sell 'em to PC vendors (try to starve AMD/VIA on the low end), then sell em 'forever' to the embedded world.
Chipzilla won't go down without a fight...
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
In particular, a $75 OEM Windows 98 license that looks like "fiscal noise" when the computer cost $1500 and sold for $2000 starts looking pretty hefty when the computer sells for $400.
Of course, if Microsoft tries to eliminate "Windows 9x" in favor of the Windows 2000 pricing, that looks rather more like buying Windows NT Server at full price, this makes the OS cost more than the computer.
It's no shock that manufacturers would start looking more seriously at license-fee-free things like Linux in these sorts of circumstances...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
I mentions reducing the size of the mobo to further cut costs. Do you think they also plan to cut all the legacy components like ps/2 and isa off the board as well? My concern is that, when you mention a legacy free pc, the first that comes to mind is a lot of USB peripherals. Something that, sadly, Linux does not do very well yet.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
Timna will combine a Pentium processor core developed specifically for this low-cost market with a graphics engine and memory controller. By combining these three functions into a single chip, Intel says it will lower PC makers' overall component costs and reduce the size of the motherboard needed for Timna-based a system,
Isn't this the path that Cyrix tried to take? Where are they now? Having worked in the past as a hardware tech for a hardware support firm, all the computers that had the Cyrix chips offering this type of integration experienced tons of problems based solely on the chip, its chipset, and its integration.
You would think that we would have learned a little bit from others that have tried it.
Also, since it's going to be so integrated, does that also mean integrated to the board? We all know what that's going to do for upgradeability, but your average Joe Blow on the street isn't. How many people are they going to have to tell, "We're sorry, but you just can't upgrade that computer... " In a market that has positioned itself MORE towards upgradeability, and more away from proprietary components, can this be a good move?
I understand that sacrifices must be made for PCs that cheap, but upgradeability should be the last, opting to lose performance over upgradeability...
BR But that's just me.
> I wonder if Intel consider the Celeron a success
>or failure?
Since AMD hasn't gone out of business yet, it obviously isn't a "success". However, they're still making it so obviously they don't consider it a "failure" either.
There's no way we would have seen a Celeron if AMD hadn't forced Intel to compete to produce such cheap but fast CPU's.
While some have offered PCs under $500, they have generally been with outdated, end-of-life technologies such as slower processors and CD-ROM drives.
Amazing. CD-ROM is DEAD. Incredible, considering 99.99999998% of software in the distribution market is using this obsolete media. Stop pusing so hard to make our machines obsolete! WE LIKE THEM.
But wait:
Timna will combine a Pentium processor core developed specifically for this low-cost market...
Huh? A Pentium Processor core? Isn't that a bit....DATED? We have Pentium III right now, and they're developing a chip with 5 year old technology. Hey, stick one of those end-of-life CD-ROM drives in there too.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
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It would seem to me that the target market for these computers are corporations that want something cheap for the average desktop worker. For these corporations, upgrading is ususally not economical in terms of labor costs, and they're going to buy a new one after the depreciation period ends.
However, I understand your worry, because these computers will end up in the hands of small business and home users that don't understand that they are trading upgradability for a lower purchase price. Think back to the old Mac LCs and Performas -- dog performance, no upgradability, unhappy users.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Integrating everything possible on one chip usually decreases performance. AGP may be slow, but at least video cards have their own RAM, which usually gives a couple GB/s. One chip solution on the other hand is confined to the 64bit * 100MHz = 730MB/s main bus. And remember, that bus is not dedicated to graphics, so the actual bandwith is even less. Plus, Intel probably won't be putting a 15 million transistor 3D-core on this one, so you can forget playing Q3 with one of these.
Make no mistake people, this is a very low-end solution.
Something is wrong with PC pricing. At the huge volumes of these that are sold, our favourite toys should cost the same as household appliances and hifi equipment at the mass market end of the scale. We shouldn't be talking sub-$1000 at the bottom end, but sub-$100. A PC is not inherently more complex and hence expensive in its component parts than a set-top box, possibly minus display.
Are we talking cartel here, or is the demand so much greater than supply that prices bump around just under the ceiling rather than just above the floor?
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
The Table of known working devices is growing, and the major classes of devices that aren't working yet are speakers. And it's not clear what's up with modems and NICs, which I'm seeing in stores, but no note of Linux support.
At any rate, from the recent groundswell of support, I expect that by the time the "reduced mobos" come out, there should be even better USB support than there is now. It's certainly in the interests of (SuSE|RHAT|VA-LINUX|Lineo|...) to make sure they get supported...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
That they are using Linux doesn't mean you'll be able to use it for anything but net surfing. It looks like they have remote configuration capabilities. They haven't even mentioned what main processor will be used. It'll have puny local memory on a flash card and it won't even have a full-sized keyboard.
It looks like they're using a custom web browser that is always on, so I seriously doubt they are even running an X server.
I strongly suspect that it will use proprietary hardware and software that will be useless for anything else.
It thus may not matter to them today, but might be of greater importance by late 2000. Note that I mentioned several companies that may not all feel they have an immediate stake in USB; they all do have an interest in increased adoption of Linux, and will ultimately be injured if availability of USB hardware gets widespread whilst Linux support remains limited.
Yes, it's evident that SuSE is supporting USB; hopefully we'll see better support come over time. I wouldn't mind seeing USB take off as an alternative to the hard-to-tie-down RS-232, and if it "takes out" ISA at the same time, I will not shed many tears.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
The heck with RS232, get a USB->Serial interface. I've seen them for parallel devices, implementing a serial interface shouldn't be much harder (May need to have a UART in the box). That way you wouldn't need a serial mux for the consoles on your Beowulf, just hook it to one USB chain. I would LOVE to see USB replace serial, parallel, simple ISA cards (modems, gameports, etc), even Ethernet. (Note: not USB audio, it is too bandwidth intensive and requires the CPU to do too much work)
I love the idea of USB networking, it seems like a great idea for home use. Even better would be the ability to see any USB device in the chain, from any host computer! I don't know if it works this way but it would be way cool! Would probably require some other tech, like Jini, to fix device contention problems.
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
With all of the rabates that companies are offering you can actually MAKE MONEY by buying one of these pieces of garbage.
I just saw in a Best Buy flyer a PC with over $600 of rebates included.
These things are a recipe for disaster. Do you own an old Pentium of 486 based Packard Bell? If you do then you know what I'm talking about. Nobody in their right mind is going to service these piecs of garbage. The upgrade market brings businesses PILES of money. If a PC is going to be cheaper to replace than to repair or upgrade why pay the money to get certified to repair them?
I repair Apples , Compaqs, and HPs. As well as upgrade them. If a new HD and 128MB of ram is going to cost more than a NEW PC why would anyone push them? These things will have abysmally low performance. So when Game X v3.5 comes out you have to buy a new $300 PC to play a $40 game, where does that leave you?
Compaq and Packard Bell have tried this in the past and if it were not for Compaq's server market share they'd have gone the same route as Packard Bell. Garbage PCs won't get the support of retailers, I'm not talking about the Suits that work for Circuit City. I'm talking about the grunts that deal directly with the customers.
I almost daily steer people AWAY from garbage, and I know that most of the salespeople that I know do the same thing. "Yes ma'am this computer is half the price of the other one but just look at how Game X runs on the two. See how jumpy it is on this one, see how smooth it is on the other one. What do you think is going to happen in 6 months when a new game you and your son want to play comes out? This computer will run it even slower than it is currently running this one."
See what I mean?
Not all of us are snake oil salesmen.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Think of it this way, as you missed the whole point of the post... It isn't a new idea, it has been done before by AMD (and Motorola with their Dragonball etc) and as far as anyone here knows, the AMD K6-2+ will include an integrated graphics controller and graphics memory bus... (I doubt it, but it might)...
The embedded / one-chip-solution market is going to become huge. People will buy a PC when it comes in a black case with a small LCD screen on the front and can be stacked in the HI-FI, or embedded in the TV, etc, for less than a couple of hundred dollars. Of course, then it isn't a PC...
Of course, I believe in PCs with dedicated chips for different things. That is why the Amiga was so good in its time - dedicated graphics, sound, I/O chips etc. The all-in-one solutions are naff to me. But they will allow your mother to surf the web or whatever. I will always go for the (more expensive) dedicated stuff. Except for than damned winmodem that I bought because it didn't way winmodem on the box, so I thought it was a conventional modem... I have learnt though.
Let the processor process, the sound cards do sound (and mp3 decoding in H/W), the graphics card do graphics (and DVD decoding in H/W! Not software). You don't see software based SCSI adapters do you?
There is always a market for the crap low-end components though. I buy expensive hi-fi separates, but people wil buy $200 integrated crap-boxes with over-the-top design...
And the main Multics systems known to still be operational is at my brother's "office," DND: Maritime Command, in Halifax, reportedly planned to be decommissioned next June.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.