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New Intel uP for Ultra-Cheap PCs
mircea writes "This ZDNet story talks about a new chip from Intel, dubbed Timna, targeted at ultra-low-cost PCs. It is supposed to be .18 micron technology, with integrated video. There's also mention of 'appliances based on this chip, possibly running Linux'" And the 2nd page of the article mentions AMD and Cyrix (now owned by VIA), both of whom are also preparing ultra low-cost microprocessors.
Wow. So if appliances are going to be running on Linux,
:)
that means I was wrong to think Microsoft were
going to start monopolising my kitchen..
Well, I'm just glad to see cheap 0.18micron
technology
--
David Taylor
davidt-sd@xfiles.nildram.spam.co.uk
[To e-mail me: s/\.spam//]
Itanium, Pentium?
I like to see what keyboards look like over at Intel, their alphabet sure seems to have a lot fewer letters than the rest of us.
Dana
As long as it still runs linux... lol. Funny this article doesn't say anything at all about the architechture, anyone have any idea how these will compare to ... say celerons ... in clock speeds? How bout what will it connect through? This information must be available somewhere. I'd appreciate a link with greater info. Also, it doesn't mention possible price, or whether the architecture is slower or what, just mentions .018 micron. You get the picture... someone please link me to a better source of info. :-)
Now back to learning russian... DO CBNDAHR... man i need a russian keyboard for this. Throw a link to that too if you know any
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
Let's hope this turns out like the Celeron - a ;)
nice piece of hardware for a very modest price.
I wonder if Intel consider the Celeron a success
or failure? Will they do things differenly this
time? (I suppose they think they have their clock locking technology perfected by now
One has to wory about release of specification
for things like video harware, but of course if
cost of end product is the major force behind this
then Intel cannot affor to tie themselves to
proprietary software producers.
I think this is a very interesting development
that bears watching.
Be careful. People in masks cannot be trusted.
It sounds like a decent solution for very low-end and inexpensive computers... just like their i810 chipset (which of course had it's slew of problems). I wonder if the new integrated video in the `processor' will be just like their video chipset attempt called the i740. Sure the i740 chipset was cheap, but the performance was equivalent with it's price... very low.
;)
I think the `processor' will probably be very useful in handheld/portable computers... and help lower prices of laptops even more. Hey... there might be competition with the iBook
I wonder how the announcement will make the video chipset makers (like ATI, 3dfx, Riva, etc) feel.... could this mean more competition or `yet another strong-arm Intel tactic'?
the Cubit is a wireless PC, in fact the PC is included in the LCD flat screen and you have keyboard and mouse wireless, also modem and LAN. It runs Linux, and costs less than 400$ as well.
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
At the 1999 embedded trade show, the keynote speaker pointed out that PC sales vs embedded sales was at a ratio of 2:1. By 2003, he said the ratio will be 1:3.
With embedded applications like speech recg., TCP/IP and other technologies, the embedded world is growing up to 32 bits fast. (for some reason a z80 or 8051 doesn't do TCP/IP well
Intel's move is them making sure they have IP cores (Intellectual property) that can be used in the embedded market. The high profit is in PCs, the volume is in embedded. So they'll sell 'em to PC vendors (try to starve AMD/VIA on the low end), then sell em 'forever' to the embedded world.
Chipzilla won't go down without a fight...
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
That would be cool. hmmm. If only, I know something about chip fab.
In particular, a $75 OEM Windows 98 license that looks like "fiscal noise" when the computer cost $1500 and sold for $2000 starts looking pretty hefty when the computer sells for $400.
Of course, if Microsoft tries to eliminate "Windows 9x" in favor of the Windows 2000 pricing, that looks rather more like buying Windows NT Server at full price, this makes the OS cost more than the computer.
It's no shock that manufacturers would start looking more seriously at license-fee-free things like Linux in these sorts of circumstances...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
I mentions reducing the size of the mobo to further cut costs. Do you think they also plan to cut all the legacy components like ps/2 and isa off the board as well? My concern is that, when you mention a legacy free pc, the first that comes to mind is a lot of USB peripherals. Something that, sadly, Linux does not do very well yet.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
Timna will combine a Pentium processor core developed specifically for this low-cost market with a graphics engine and memory controller. By combining these three functions into a single chip, Intel says it will lower PC makers' overall component costs and reduce the size of the motherboard needed for Timna-based a system,
Isn't this the path that Cyrix tried to take? Where are they now? Having worked in the past as a hardware tech for a hardware support firm, all the computers that had the Cyrix chips offering this type of integration experienced tons of problems based solely on the chip, its chipset, and its integration.
You would think that we would have learned a little bit from others that have tried it.
Also, since it's going to be so integrated, does that also mean integrated to the board? We all know what that's going to do for upgradeability, but your average Joe Blow on the street isn't. How many people are they going to have to tell, "We're sorry, but you just can't upgrade that computer... " In a market that has positioned itself MORE towards upgradeability, and more away from proprietary components, can this be a good move?
I understand that sacrifices must be made for PCs that cheap, but upgradeability should be the last, opting to lose performance over upgradeability...
BR But that's just me.
While some have offered PCs under $500, they have generally been with outdated, end-of-life technologies such as slower processors and CD-ROM drives.
Amazing. CD-ROM is DEAD. Incredible, considering 99.99999998% of software in the distribution market is using this obsolete media. Stop pusing so hard to make our machines obsolete! WE LIKE THEM.
But wait:
Timna will combine a Pentium processor core developed specifically for this low-cost market...
Huh? A Pentium Processor core? Isn't that a bit....DATED? We have Pentium III right now, and they're developing a chip with 5 year old technology. Hey, stick one of those end-of-life CD-ROM drives in there too.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
It would seem to me that the target market for these computers are corporations that want something cheap for the average desktop worker. For these corporations, upgrading is ususally not economical in terms of labor costs, and they're going to buy a new one after the depreciation period ends.
However, I understand your worry, because these computers will end up in the hands of small business and home users that don't understand that they are trading upgradability for a lower purchase price. Think back to the old Mac LCs and Performas -- dog performance, no upgradability, unhappy users.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
The article doesn't mention any video memory on-chip, so I would think that graphics might end up fairly slow as the CPU and graphics engine fight over access to a shared bus. However, I'm not familiar with the details of how the PCs do graphics (though I did know the Amiga fairly well) so maybe this won't be an issue.
Integrating everything possible on one chip usually decreases performance. AGP may be slow, but at least video cards have their own RAM, which usually gives a couple GB/s. One chip solution on the other hand is confined to the 64bit * 100MHz = 730MB/s main bus. And remember, that bus is not dedicated to graphics, so the actual bandwith is even less. Plus, Intel probably won't be putting a 15 million transistor 3D-core on this one, so you can forget playing Q3 with one of these.
Make no mistake people, this is a very low-end solution.
Remember in the trial, "bill gates was livid (spelling?) when he heard that Intel were developing software for non windows platforms".. words to that affect.
Well, well, now Intel are making chips for non Windows platforms... and good thing to... especially after Intel investing in Linux etc.
So, is this a sign that the WinTel period is over? Have Intel found that they don't have to follow Microsoft like a lemming...
or Just a result of the Intel Trial, and Microsoft DOJ trail? In that Microsoft aren't going to be so pushy anymore?
or just..probably... just because such a applicanes are getting more attractive, and Intel want a part in it... (why are the tags shown - in preview with HTML Formatted option??!!)
Something is wrong with PC pricing. At the huge volumes of these that are sold, our favourite toys should cost the same as household appliances and hifi equipment at the mass market end of the scale. We shouldn't be talking sub-$1000 at the bottom end, but sub-$100. A PC is not inherently more complex and hence expensive in its component parts than a set-top box, possibly minus display.
Are we talking cartel here, or is the demand so much greater than supply that prices bump around just under the ceiling rather than just above the floor?
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
glad to see some holiday spirit on /.
:-)
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
I don't get the purpose of Intel's cheap CPUs (Celeron and this new kind).
...
If somebody wanted a cheap CPU they could get a slightly outdated expensive CPU. If the reason for them is that it would be better than the expensive CPU's price equivalent, then why are they cheaper than the expensive CPU's performance equivalent?
Am I making any sense here?
To me it seems like it's all about marketing
The Table of known working devices is growing, and the major classes of devices that aren't working yet are speakers. And it's not clear what's up with modems and NICs, which I'm seeing in stores, but no note of Linux support.
At any rate, from the recent groundswell of support, I expect that by the time the "reduced mobos" come out, there should be even better USB support than there is now. It's certainly in the interests of (SuSE|RHAT|VA-LINUX|Lineo|...) to make sure they get supported...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
How can it be less expensive to pack several peripheral components that previously existed as separate cards or chip into the CPU ( which routinely stretches the limits of IC manufacturing ) than to pack those same components into the motherboard chipset ( which will be needed anyway, but hasn't been stressed to the limits of the CPU ? ).
:)
Bare in mind that the chipset will have to be made specifically to accommodate these new CPU features.
This has been tried before and it has never worked and it never will. Not until the technology gets to the stage where the whole computer will be a single complex chip. Because this plan of 2 complex chips for the motherboard and one unbelievably complicated CPU is what Cirix tried ( didn't work ) and iNTEL itself failed at a long time ago ( ever herd of the 80186 ? ).
My solution ? A motherboard with sound, networking, video and even modem on a single chip ( possible with relatively little stress since it's mostly been done ) then add a "normal" CPU. simpler, faster an cheaper. Take a look at the VIA-GRA and similar motherboards. They are very close and the main transgression is windows only hardware.
somebody signed a deal to distribute Corel Linux and promptly put 150 hackers to work on Linux drivers in it's Tiwan office. guess who
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
I think we are all missing Intel's point here. They are trying to service quite a new market. It is not technology aimed at us its technology aimed at our parents or grandparents. This stuff will be used in things like set top boxes and email appliances. Maybe even light web surfers (kind of like the home version of a Palm VII).
"He flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse, and rode off madly in all directions." S. Leacock
VA is not in the market for low end machines, they didn't appear to care about USB at all when I talked to them in July. (this may have changed)
By far the best Linux-USB supporter is SuSE, with many USB hardware vendors coming next.
[crappy network dissolutions headers removed, sue me...]
Registrant:
Equinox Industries LTD (TIMNA-DOM)
25 Dunlop Ave
Winnipeg, MB R2X 2V
CANADA
Domain Name: TIMNA.COM
Administrative Contact:
Jonhston, Dennis (DJ705) equinox@MAGIC.MB.CA
(204)633-7564
Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Bollman, Philip (PB1191) dwc@ESCAPE.CA
(204)488-3454 (FAX) (204)487-0159
Billing Contact:
Johnston, Dennis (DJ706) equinox@ESCAPE.CA
(204)633-7564
Record last updated on 19-Oct-1998.
Record created on 21-Jun-1996.
Database last updated on 25-Nov-1999 12:45:02 EST.
Hmmm, taken.... No relation to Intel, I presume...
--frank[at]unternet.org
That they are using Linux doesn't mean you'll be able to use it for anything but net surfing. It looks like they have remote configuration capabilities. They haven't even mentioned what main processor will be used. It'll have puny local memory on a flash card and it won't even have a full-sized keyboard.
It looks like they're using a custom web browser that is always on, so I seriously doubt they are even running an X server.
I strongly suspect that it will use proprietary hardware and software that will be useless for anything else.
Anyone ever heard of AMD's 486's with lcd controllers, etc? The Elan. It's been 'round for years now. Intel makes some mention of the idea and it's something "brand new" C'mon people, this is sad.
It thus may not matter to them today, but might be of greater importance by late 2000. Note that I mentioned several companies that may not all feel they have an immediate stake in USB; they all do have an interest in increased adoption of Linux, and will ultimately be injured if availability of USB hardware gets widespread whilst Linux support remains limited.
Yes, it's evident that SuSE is supporting USB; hopefully we'll see better support come over time. I wouldn't mind seeing USB take off as an alternative to the hard-to-tie-down RS-232, and if it "takes out" ISA at the same time, I will not shed many tears.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
``Is that a Timna processor?'' ``SQUAWK!''
Else, how I am gonna connect to the console port of my router, or download test result from my Pentascanner ?
RS-232 is just so widespread, keeping just one serial port would be a Good Thing (tm), IMHO.
:wq
Not really. I have an AMD K6-2 300, and my friend has a celeron 300, and mine is MUCH faster, and I think a P3 is slightly faster than a K6-2 at the same MHz, which would make the celeron much worse than a P3. Sure, his is equally fast under a light load, but put it under a heavy cpu load (ie emulation) and his bites the dust. The reason? No external cache. (InHell finally saw the light and put a little in later models).
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
No actually I don't, but I'll go check... ok I can't find it anywhere, what does it mean? I don't think it's even russian, as there is no N in russian... only a backwards N that is the same as an english E. Are you saying it is a word or are you just asking if it is?
:-)
Moderators, please don't mark this post down, I have no other way to communicate with AC's that ask me questions, and I know this is off topic. Thanx
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
But they forgot the "Any" key...
Deosyne
The previous posters were talking about the later (Mendocino) Celerons. They mentioned 400 MHz...
These are great value for money. I don't think a Celeron 400 runs like a PII 333 but the original poster did say it was just an example! For home users, there really isn't much to be gained in spending hundreds more on a `real' PII(I).
Sure, his is equally fast under a light load, but put it under a heavy cpu load (ie emulation) and his bites the dust. The reason? No external cache. (InHell finally saw the light and put a little in later models).
Umh..not entirely true. I have a C300A which behaves gracefully even when running 2 simultaneous instances of VMware, each with its virtual machine running in it. Under exactly the same load, i.e. 2 VMs running simultaneously, a friend's K6-2/300 becomes so slow it's almost unusable. All of the other parameters being almost exactly the same (amount of memory and swap, number of processes, etc.)
With all of the rabates that companies are offering you can actually MAKE MONEY by buying one of these pieces of garbage.
I just saw in a Best Buy flyer a PC with over $600 of rebates included.
These things are a recipe for disaster. Do you own an old Pentium of 486 based Packard Bell? If you do then you know what I'm talking about. Nobody in their right mind is going to service these piecs of garbage. The upgrade market brings businesses PILES of money. If a PC is going to be cheaper to replace than to repair or upgrade why pay the money to get certified to repair them?
I repair Apples , Compaqs, and HPs. As well as upgrade them. If a new HD and 128MB of ram is going to cost more than a NEW PC why would anyone push them? These things will have abysmally low performance. So when Game X v3.5 comes out you have to buy a new $300 PC to play a $40 game, where does that leave you?
Compaq and Packard Bell have tried this in the past and if it were not for Compaq's server market share they'd have gone the same route as Packard Bell. Garbage PCs won't get the support of retailers, I'm not talking about the Suits that work for Circuit City. I'm talking about the grunts that deal directly with the customers.
I almost daily steer people AWAY from garbage, and I know that most of the salespeople that I know do the same thing. "Yes ma'am this computer is half the price of the other one but just look at how Game X runs on the two. See how jumpy it is on this one, see how smooth it is on the other one. What do you think is going to happen in 6 months when a new game you and your son want to play comes out? This computer will run it even slower than it is currently running this one."
See what I mean?
Not all of us are snake oil salesmen.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Cyrix had a WebPad product ready for some time now, here's the link: http://www.cyrix.com/html/emerg ing/index.htm#webpad Ofcourse, I haven't heard much from it since, but if they could sell-off their WebPad technology to AMD, who in turn would replace the main processor, and form a partnership with major broadband ISPs, all the effort resulting in a low-cost, fast-access internet appliance!
Buying computers at prices comparable to those of average household appliances that have beome important parts of our lives? Well.. Most people would agree that computers have become a huge part of our lives. Hell, lots of people even feel there should be a computer in every home to aid kids (and adults) in learning, etc.. And yes, it would be nice to purchase a decent, usable system for the prices comparable to average, 'necessary' household appliances.. but!
> A modern PC is much more complex and expensive to manufacture then a VCR or microwave.
I agree. Those are the facts. I don't think these prices are a result of companies taking advantage of consumers by keeping prices high (even while fighting price wars?) because everyone is so mystified by their products that no one would think to challenge them.. The cause is concentrated on what it costs to produce the product.
-mg.
Telling Microsoft where to Go?? Hell no. Did you see this comment.
'It's an Intel Architecture product and it runs Windows, so it's a PC," Gelsinger said. If a PC maker or device maker were to use Timna in a device with limited function and an operating system like Linux, he said, "now you call it an appliance."'
I would venture a guess Bill Gates would line someones pocket to say that if it runs windows it a PC but if it runs Linux its just an appliance.
Its funny this machine never toasted any bread for me or did my laundry. But it fancies itself as a web browser and word processor from time to time!!
What a crock.
If I stop posting will you be happy
And the main Multics systems known to still be operational is at my brother's "office," DND: Maritime Command, in Halifax, reportedly planned to be decommissioned next June.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
That's all nice if you can afford and manage the infrastructure, but most household still own only one PC, never mind a server ! And what about laptop that are on and off the network ?
I admit I could live with such a setup, but I'm an exception, not the norm.
:wq
gr33tz 2 d3v0
http://gammatron.weblogger.com
I thought I'd update this note to mention that VA Linux Systems does employ one of the USB developers now. Figuring out who is left as an excercise for the reader.