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XFree86 joins X.Org as Honorary Member
Virtex writes "According to a press release at X.Org, the XFree86 group has been made an honorary member of X.Org, which is an organization of the Open Group. This will allow them a seat at hearings and the ability to vote on the executive board. "
Wow. So all those years spent developing XFree86 just to keep a free (as in Open Source free) X implementation was worthwhile. Which raises an interesting question... does this mean that it's worthwhile to insist on creating free clones of proprietary software, or should we concentrate on creating new, Open Source software (ie., not cloning existing software)? If it's worth the time and effort to clone something just for the sake of keeping it Open Source (ie. eventually we reap the benefits when the Open Source development model overtakes what was being cloned at first), then perhaps we should start cloning things like QT and a host of other things with licenses that people are complaining about...
I used to think that efforts like OpenSSH and XFree86 are doomed to play catch-up forever. But now I think I was wrong... it may not be such a bad thing to clone. Perhaps the Linux story generalizes to other things as well -- after all, Linus started by cloning UNIX to run on i386, and look at what Linux has become now.
mikre he sophia he tou Mikrosophou.
There's already enough banter about fragmentation of the desktop what with Gnome and KDE and some other distant also-rans. I would think that scrapping X would merely serve to dilute Our (Unix Community, here) Application Base.
Maybe this thread show's why Linux-based systems are called GNU/Linux.
;-)
'Cause GNU's Not UN*X, Baby...
(Of course, all that FSF software included also helps
Sun's basically dropped the ball at X11R5 and The Beast That Is CDE, HP does - well, nothing, so far as I can tell. Digital is effectively in the midst of death shudders under the Loving Hand of Compaq, IBM - look, who else is actually rolling out new servers and working on X?
The members of X.org ought to pony up to XFree86's bar, and get X going again (and thus, their own miserable stinking excuses for Unices, May the Hand of the Moderator be Gentle).
DNS isn't case sensitive.
X isn't bloated. It's actually a very lightweight protocol, as you would know if you had done any research on the subject. I call using CORBA bloated.
2 years ago the Open Group declared X would be licensed only for a fee and the XFree86 team would no longer be able to use the Open Group's code. Now not only did they reverse that decision but they're really trying to pick their balls off the floor with this XFree86 pledge.
I would have to respectfully disagree that XFree doesn't need X.org. Only because the vast majority of developers insist that the X standards be adheered to - including XFree developers. The catch-22 occurs because there has never been a feedback mechanism back into the SI from XFree, so anything that XFree code-forked would have to be re-implemented on new X releases. Not a big deal on the driver side.
What was bad about this situation, is that when people start to talk about innovations that require major changes to the SI, we must develop them using extensions for fear of breaking with the SI.(Some things just can't be done using extensions, though) When people start using extensions then traditional application developers are weary of using them because there's little reason for workstation vendors to support these extensions. Most developers always aim for the square middle if possible.
This all changed because X.org realized that the commercial ISV had virtually disappeared. Almost all the commercial work being done was for in-house development and narrowly focused niche markets. The other 99.9% of X developers were using linux and *bsd!!!
I think some innovations have been (until fairly recently) stiffled because of X.org's unwillingness to accept feedback. Features that are just now being implemented or discussed that could have happened 2-4 years ago. (Insert laundry list here)
Another factor is that most X developers really thought X was dead. Heck, even Jim Gettys told me at the last ALS that he was really supprised that X was still around (and pleased that it is!). Knowing how "well documented" the SI is (remember that X is larger than the Linux Kernel?) there was quite a loss of real expertise on X internals.
What you see here is very exciting. You see the ability of XFree to affect the SI. You see a standards organization accepting the true standard. You see a resurgence of expertise in developer resources on the XFree team. You see organizations supporting *very* good things like Precision Insight, SGI, Mesa, and MetroLink.
And you ain't seen nothing yet.
This isn't your mama's X server!!
Roger
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
I would have to respectfully disagree that XFree doesn't need X.org. Only because the vast majority of developers insist that the X standards be adheered to - including XFree developers. The catch-22 occurs because there has never been a feedback mechanism back into the SI from XFree, so anything that XFree code-forked would have to be re-implemented on new X releases. Not a big deal on the driver side.
What was bad about this situation, is that when people start to talk about innovations that require major changes to the SI, we must develop them using extensions for fear of breaking with the SI.(Some things just can't be done using extensions, though) When people start using extensions then traditional application developers are weary of using them because there's little reason for workstation vendors to support these extensions. Most developers always aim for the square middle if possible.
This all changed because X.org realized that the commercial ISV had virtually disappeared. Almost all the commercial work being done was for in-house development and narrowly focused niche markets. The other 99.9% of X developers were using linux and *bsd!!!
I think some innovations have been (until fairly recently) stiffled because of X.org's unwillingness to accept feedback. Features that are just now being implemented or discussed that could have happened 2-4 years ago. (Insert laundry list here)
Another factor is that most X developers really thought X was dead. Heck, even Jim Gettys told me at the last ALS that he was really supprised that X was still around (and pleased that it is!). Knowing how "well documented" the SI is (remember that X is larger than the Linux Kernel?) there was quite a loss of real expertise on X internals.
What you see here is very exciting. You see the ability of XFree to affect the SI. You see a standards organization accepting the true standard. You see a resurgence of expertise in developer resources on the XFree team. You see organizations supporting *very* good things like Precision Insight, SGI, Mesa, and MetroLink.
And you ain't seen nothing yet. This is just my opinion, ofcourse. I havn't been involved until recently (and in a very minor fashion) But I've been watching XFree since they were X386.
This isn't your mama's X server!!
Roger
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
DOOHH!! Sorry about that. I'm using Mozilla M11 now.. looks like I found a bug! (Hitting the submit button twice?)
Roger
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
X is probably the best reason to use Linux on the desktop. I store all my porn on one machine and then have it display running on my 486/33 in my room with a projector. Its fun. Seriously though, X makes rmeote administration practical. I advise anyone who hasn't use X across their LAn for displaying stuff to do so.
BTW:: What is the difference between X.org X and XFree86?
True, but either way xfree86 gets to humiliate X.org's corporate, closed-source backers.
;-)
OTOH, XFree now stands to inherit that elusive one-letter domain name
Who's the idiot who added the flamebait to the rating for this post? He's a effing idiot and should be thoroughly flamed for his incompetence.
I quote:
"XFree86 possesses considerable engineering talent, innovation and energy that X.Org is
well positioned to leverage...."
Doesn't that just sound someone in marketing who's just discovered something that'll save their bacon.....
Score: -5 (You're such a cynic!)
All your ghosts are just false positives.
What many people are missing is the significance of "Honorary Membership".
/far/ from free. The Open Group has given XFre86 a voting seat on the X Consortium for /free/. That is the significance of this move. AFAIK, this is a first... I believe all other members of the X Consortium are paying members. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)
Membership to the X Consortium is
But surely then they would at least have an A record for x.org, which they don't.
$ nslookup x.org
Server: localhost
Address: 127.0.0.1
*** No address (A) records available for x.org
Progress is still progress. Let's not be too upset when we are making strides forward, even if it is not as fast as we would have liked.
All that said, I know what you mean. Linux started out as a clone and is now becoming a respected member of the Unix community and one of the few with any real active developement (or so I've gathered).
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
I saw the XFree86 announcement a week ago on E*Trade (Reuters I think... It somehow got associated with Compaq). I couldn't link it though (members only) :(
-- Phenym
...how many misconceptions are out there.
For one, what goes in XFree86 does not become a standard. X.Org is still a governing body for the X standard. I think it was Metro Link who initiated the entire thing of inviting the XFree86 to become an honorary member.
Also, when the X licensing policy changed with R6, it was Xi who pushed for the change in policy in hopes of isolating the XFree86 and hindering their ability to comply to the standard. We all know what a fiasco that turned out to be.
and the link works just fine.
I actually meant to say something like this, but I forgot to. The reason Linux is Intel's worst nightmare is Intel is damned if they do and damned if they don't. With the rising mainstream popularity of Linux, Intel will rapidly loose sales to other chip makers as people realize Linux works well on non-Intel hw, especially if Intel Linux starts to lag. However, many improvements in Linux for Intel hw will, in general, also be benneficial to other platforms.
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
XFree86 often being synonymous with X. Maybe with newbies who never heard of Unix till Linux came around.
The other part of the problem that while Motif was cloned for a good reason (a lot of software, both free and proprietary, uses it), there is no possible way to convince free software developers to clone CDE unless some of them are hell bent on passing the certification -- CDE is inferior to free software (KDE, GNOME, any decently configured window manager other than twm), and isn't mandatory to run any existing programs.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I've been programming Motif for a couple of years, ever since Sun dropped OpenLook and my then employer switched to Solaris from SunOS.
Motif has an intersting history, as it was partially funded by none other than Microsoft. They saw it as a useful way of testing UI design prior to the big overhaul to Windows 3.1 that resulted in Windows 95.
As I've always been a little bit partisan about Motif (XView was far easier to program with), I've often wondered if Motif is best seen as an Windows 95 GUI prototype. Motif certainly needs an overhaul in places - the file dialogs for instance.
And as a sidenote, I recall a former Open Group programmer saying that they toyed with the idea of making Motif open source a few years back. Damn shame they didn't, as I'm sure both the Lesstif and Open Group teams could come up with something far leaner and meaner if they pooled their experience.
Chris Wareham
Berlin, BeOS, NanoGUI, and such, all may be interesting options, but until they exist on a wide range of platforms, provide the flexibility of X, and actually have substantial bodies of code that will run on 'em, they can't realistically be considered as more than wishful alternatives.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
It's not "proper."
The only reason using just the domain name to get to a website works nowadays is to allow the lazy or the ignorant to leave off the hostname.
Some hostmasters are old fashioned, and don't provide an A record for the domain itself. Can't say I blame them really.
--
My comments and opinions completely reflect those of anyone and anything I am remotely associated with.
It's also nice to note that XFree86 is included in Netware 5.0. It's been turned into an NLM. I find it interesting that Netware finally has a GUI.
This comment is WRONG.
You first have to go back to the roots of the X Consortium to understand how things worked. The important standard for X was the protocol, not the particular implementations of the client or server.
Before the (then independent) X Consortium ran out of money (and sold the remains of itself to The Open Group), it had prepared plans to change the license for the reference implementation to add a commercial redistribution fee. This was to give the Consortium an additional income stream, which until that time had mostly been funded by sponsor dollars and contract dollars. Interestingly enough, those contract dollars mostly came from the Open Software Foundation, which outsourced the development of CDE 1.0 (after having ceased all in-house development of Motif, along with DCE and OSF/1). In fact, many engineers from the Motif group ended up at the X Consortium working on the CDE/Motif contract).
But, the X Consortium ran out of money and sold it self. Most of the engineers left and a few folks hung on at as part of the X Project Team at TOG. Since TOG had emerged from the OSF and X/Open merger, this meant that some of those engineers now had the chance of being layed off from the same building a second time. Some were (but I get ahead of myself).
The XPT ran on at TOG with sponsor dollars, but, near the end, still needed more funding.
The planned change in the X license was resurrected.
However, to the core developers of X, this was NOT A PROBLEM because the licensing only affected the "reference implementation". As long as clients and servers all followed the same X11 protocol, then the world would be served well by the elimination of a monoculture in the implementation.
In fact, if you go back to the earlier vendor releases of X (by HP, DEC, IBM and later Sun), you'll see that each had their 'proprietary' additions to the clients and servers, but all interoperated by working against one standard protocol.
X is intended to be a standard of communication, but a single implementation. Even with the license change, the X protocol would continue to be an open standard. An "open standard" doesn't mean that source is free, but rather the definition of the standard (and implementations of that standard) are unencumbered. OSF was founded on the principal of defining an operating system (OSF/1) as an open standard -- OSF/1 was defined by a book (called the AES) that dictated the interfaces. OSF also provided a reference implementation that was used by others (like DEC) to creatte their own operating system.
But, I digress.
At the time the X11R6.4 license change went into effect, several things were cooking. First, a freely distributable source distribution of Motif2.0 was planned. It, too, would have commercial redistribution restrictions.
However, TOG was in serious money troubles itself. Barely weeks after R6.4 hit the streets, it was announced that the OSF portion of TOG was being shut down. Within two months, almost every engineer in the building was gone. The final move to revert the license was made because at the time, it looked like X.Org was dead.
(and the Motif release never happened because the people - engineers and management - responsible for X were gone).
The group that is "X.org" today is composed of the former sponsors of the X Project Team. None of the engineers remain there. Any ongoing work is done by sponsor organizations. If anything, XFree86 is 'the' hotbed of X server development these days.
To think there is some ulterior motive at TOG in regard to X licensing or X.Org is silly -- the remaining folks at TOG are just the X/Open folks in the UK, and they are just doing what X/Open ALWAYS did ("nothing"?).
The "they" in "not only did they reverse that decision" just doesn't exist.
The truth is that the part of The Open Group that was responsible for X (and Motif, and OSF/1, and DCE) is gone and buried.
"The truth is that the part of The Open Group that was responsible for X (and Motif, and OSF/1, and DCE) is gone and buried.
.. nobody ?/
"
Now.. that's reasurring .
So whos's developing this stuff now ?? Everybory and
Hopefully they will continue to work together, this can only mean good things for both projects, I wonder if they will share code, and ideas or just vote on the directions they are going in. How much a "part" of the opengroup will they really be.
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire." - George Carlin
that with XFree86 often being synonymous with X, that they would have been invited long ago, if not present since the beginning of the Linux revolution. I'm disappointed at the lack of recognition that XFree has received, even until now.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
Then why do they differentiate between *BSD and Linux. They're functionally equivilant, afterall! :)
Always glad to hear about it when Xf86 and TOG are getting along. Let's hope that nothing else goes wrong in this relationship in the near future...
Anybody got any progress reports on XF86 4.0?
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
Folks funding the X group!
- Compaq
- Hewlett-Packard
- Hummingbird Communications
- IBM
- Sun Microsystems
I'd like to state that I like this list! I think almost all of these companies have made other efforts to promote linux as well. It feels good to know that we've got such nice backing for our X server.And my other point, a quote from the About The X Window System section:
I like this, a group with some good backers (see above) publicly stating that their platform is expanding exponentially due to Linux.
I've never felt better about my OS.
-Denor
Yippee! No more X-clusion for the open source X!
Now if only they would serve free beer and offer free limo service...man that would be X-cellent!
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
X is an old dinosaur, and I think XFree86 is the only thing that can keep it alive much longer. Personally I think XFree86 should just change their name to XFree and leave X behind.
I would think that XFree86 has one of the largest installed base of X-Servers. Let's see... Of all Linux and BSD installs which include some kind of X-Server, XFree86 is probably installed on 99.9%.
Not to be a party-pooper, but maybe the article shouldn't have read "XFree86 joins X.Org," but instead, "XFree86 joins X.Org... FINALLY!"
Just my observations on the matter...
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
At least people got the wake-up call. It just goes to show that establishments exist even within the Open Source community.
I was under the impression that network solutions disallowed single letter domain names. Is x.org grandfathered in as an older domain, or are there certian exceptions to the rule?
-Adam
Best ways to cut a meeting short, #3:
Your wife is on line 1, your girlfriend is on line 2. Should I just let them talk to each other while they wait for your meeting to finish?
-- TweetyBert
XFree86 has served the open source community by organizing, coordinating, and supporting a massive effort to guarantee open source, freely available implementations of the X Window System. Their work has been the cornerstone of desktop operability on millions of computers worldwide, making them a true industry standard for graphics. It is very heartening to finally see the XFree86 Project be recognized for their tremendous contribution and their years of dedication.
X.org was registered before that restriction came into being.
.com domains for, say, a million dollars apiece?
On a side note, I wonder how long it will be before one of the new registrars decides to go ahead and issue one-letter
It's great to see our friends at XiG participating in slashdot forums.
Is it just me or does X seem big, slow, bloated, and old? It can't keep up with pretty environments like GNOME, and there are more incompatible ways to copy and paste than I can count. There are more regulations and standards than anyone cares to read. We need a new windowing protocol that addresses the need of the modern PC user, not the UNIX nerd sitting in front of a 12 inch monochrome CRT. The continued development of X seems pointless to me - I think we need something new altogether.
Some trivia... The reason UUNET sponsored XFree is because UUNET wanted to change from a nonprofit to for profit organization and by law are required to compensate their "shareholders", the public to do this.
From XFree's website:
Short delay in releases
[December 1999]
The XFree86 Project has missed a few promised release dates in fall 1999, but we are very optimistic to be back on track for 3.3.6 and 3.9.17 to be released before the end of the year. Similarly, we expect XFree86-4.0 to be delayed by about two months and are aiming for a release in mid-Q1/2000.
----
What changes to their current UNIX definition would be required for this?
stupid, prepend www. and try again.
... ...
$ nslookup www.x.org
Server:
Address:
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: www.x.org
Address: 192.153.166.94
they probably don't have a domain name entry for x.org that points to the ip address for www.x.org
"What changes to their current UNIX definition would be required for this?"
Here are some requirements for UNIX 95.In addition, several truckloads of cash are required.
i know only too well that there's more to the web than the web. the point i was making is that i know slashdot as "slashdot.org" which is what i type in (actually it's in my hotlist) but if, for example, i told a friend to "visit X.org" it wouldn't work and he would give up.
Imagine that amazon.com only worked with the www (i checked - either works) they would miss out on loads of business because loads of newbies and experts alike would type "amazon.com" because that's what they heard on the tv/radio/from friend or whatever. the newbies would give up and the experts might skip to the next online shopping mall they felt like looking at. even if they persisted the time wasted would be annoying them
take uk.profiles.yahoo.com/son_of_hoss or uk.search.profiles.yahoo.com. what's the domain there. i can't think of many of the top of my head but i have seen ????.www.??.com
...the X replacement, not the city.
Honestly, folks, if you want compatibility, the best thing to do is realllly to push that replacing-something-that-already-exists angle. At the same time that X is being constantly improved for faster graphics support, you're starting something else that's not going to be better for users and really will only introduce incompatibilities. I don't want to have to quit BerlinOffice in order to start Quake V just because one uses Berlin and one uses enhanced X.
Stick with X. X rocks. X is not as bloated as CORBA. X was designed by MIT, and is still in use after over 15 years, so _something_ must have been done right. Design flaws can always be modified later without a complete redesign.
I think the goal of the Single UNIX Specification was to make all systems that claim to be UNIX look sufficiently like one another that software, and users, don't get locked into particular versions.
If
then the case should perhaps be made to TOG that mandating CDE isn't worth the effort.
Given that CDE is their baby, I'm not sure they'll accept that case, but that's another matter. Perhaps the answer then is to have commercial distributors of Linux, etc. systems package up versions with CDE, etc. and get those certified as UNIX; those who care can buy those systems, and those who don't care don't have to get a system with CDE.
Have to agree. If GNU/Linux continues with it's current growth momentum (no reason to think it won't), the UNIX trademark won't matter, because GNU/Linux compatibility will matter more. Linux will easily be in the hands of a much larger user base than all the UNIX branded OS's put together. It may already be so, since it's so difficult to count. If China and Mexico and others adopt it heavily: no contest.
Open up the documentation for Motif, and who is listed amongst the sponsors? Yup, that's right Microsoft.
Chris Wareham
I should be noted that The Open Group's X.org needs the help of XFree, not the other way around.
Remember back in early 1998 when they changed the licensing on X? The idea was to generate more revenue to fund The Open Group's X development efforts. Well, The Open Group dumped X development that summer (along with most of their other development efforts), and was nice enough to change back the licensing.
So now the only organization doing public development of X is XFree. Hence, anything that goes into XFree becomes the defacto standard. By making XFree an honorary member, it makes it easier to keep the defacto standard and the paper standard in sync. Since The Open Group only exists for standards and branding anymore, they desperately need to retain control.
DISCLAIMER: I am a former employee of The Open Group, but was not involved with X.
Berlin is trying to replace X with something more modern (using bits of OpenGL, Corba, ...). I'm not involved in the project at all, but I think it's worth a look if you're interested in alternatives to X. As a former Amiga user, I certainly agree about the 'big, slow, bloated, and old' comments. However, X has its good points (e.g. network-transparency).
It is entirely possible the people at Sun, IBM, HP, Compaq, (and possibly others) decided that as they're supporting Linux from other perspectives, that the needed to tell TOG that it needs to as well.
Convincing signs of a TOG "change of heart" would include things like:
Shameless Plug: People should help Sponsor XFree86. My local Linux Users Group, NTLUG, is in the process of soliciting that members help sponsor several free software project organizations, including XFree86.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
But... GNOME runs on TOP of X...
of the XFree representative sitting on that board and glaring down at the peon members of the other companies from her throne, then suddenly wielding her terrible power to punish the recalcitrant corporations for their slowness in appeasing the mighty beast that is Open Source . . .
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
X without XFree86 seems to be shown as just a letter of the alphabet.
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS/M/Sd?s-:a---->?c++UL+++P++++L++++ E+++W+++N+K-w---M-PSY+t+5?XtvbDI++
What a crock. Given that xfree86 is the only future that X has, they should have simply declined the offer and waited a few years for X.org to cease to exist.
Do you have ESP?
"Real" websites are registered to the main domain.
After all 'slastdot.org' is easier to say than doubleyou-doubbleyou-doubleyou.slashdot.org.
This is scary. XFree86 is a buggy heap of slow rubbish only suitable for toy operating systems.
Allowing its developers to participate in the real X committee is a foolish move, as XFree's mediocrity will soon permeate all of X.
_.......................__
||.....__...._._||_..||-\\..._...._._||_
||......_\\.(/_'..||....||-//.//.\\.(/_'..||
||__((_||_,_/).||_..||....\\_//.,_/).\\_
HAHA! LAST POST! Anything following is redundant.
The XFree86 Project, Inc. was a member of the X Consortium of old, too. At least in 1994 UUNET sponsored them and contributed the membership fee. So belonging to a standards body isn't anything new to them.
Actually, I'm kind of shady on the details of how they lost that membership. Could someone more knowledgeable tell what exactly happened when TOG took over X? I was under the impression that the new X.Org had more or less the same members as the X Consortium. Apparently not...
Why do they call themselves "x.org"when typing in x.org into your browser doesn't work?
Some sites work without the www and some don't but all websites should at least promote a link that works! or else fix there DNS setup.
That's common sense to me.
The problem is that Berlin utterly throws away compatibility with the huge bodies of works currently running using Motif, TK, GTK, Qt, Xt, and FLTK (to name the likely "top" GUI libraries used on X).
As a result of discarding compatibility, Berlin is pretty useless until ALL your favorite software is rewritten to use Berlin. Some emulation may be possible, but this is nontrivial, and it'll literally take years for this to be robust enough for production use.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Look at his posting history.