I guess he's suggesting that programmers, as a rule, are generally too nerdy (or at least pragmatic) to be able to do effective PR.
Of course, I can't say I agree. Some people have combinations of skills that defy such cliches... And, additionally, in the case of this story, I'd point out that first, there's really no reason for people to get all up in arms about this "invaders" thing. They should just get a grip, relax, no need to go mental just 'cause someone used a picture of the WTC for something. Second, when the artist decided that the piece wasn't having the intended effect, he pulled it. That's a legitimate creative decision, too...
Yes, many games are just there for the raw entertainment value.
Perhaps that's where we need to ask the question what the purpose of art is. Isn't art created for enjoyment? What is the purpose of a painting? Is it to be interesting to look at? Is it to tell a deeper story? Or is it just to have a status symbol to hang on your wall to look like you're educated? My money's on the last option, modern art has reduced the concept to its foundations by cheaply making something that the buyer can feel good about owning, possibly revelling in the knowledge that no one but him knows the deeper meaning of the picture (though he just read it off the label).
If you were to talk about somebody like Warhol, I'd say that's a pretty good assessment of the situation. But I think this whole cloud of intellectualism built up around art is largely a product of the community surrounding the art, not necessarily the artists themselves. A lot of art is just making things that are somehow interesting to the artist - it's the process of trying to share the mindset that produced the work that leads to things like the "artist's statement"... which depending on the artist could be a serious attempt to convey an idea, a koan-like scrambling process intended to make people think - or just a jumble of nonsense intended to make the artist look smart. And it's often very difficult to tell the difference between the three cases.:)
But I want to approach this question from the other direction, as well: suppose video games are art. So what? Do we place an unnecessarily high level of importance on that distinction?
Specifically, I think when we talk about whether video games are "art" we're really talking about a few separate issues: "Is it worthwhile?" - which is misleading, because lots of art isn't - "Is it a legitimate means of exercising free speech?" - which is also misleading, because that's not the exclusive domain of art... Basically, there's this artificial distinction in which things are only acknowledged as "art" if we have, to some extent, accepted them, and in which the designation "art" lends credibility to them...
Conventions?? I love conventions! One time I was at a convention and George Lucas came onstage riding some kid dressed as a Taun-Taun... He was all like "And I thought they smelled bad on the outside!" That was awesome...
Then I brought a giant posted of Boba Fett with me and waited in line to see Temuera Morrison - I thought I might have got in line too late but fortunately he stuck around long enough that I could introduce myself, show him my poster (already signed by Jeremy Bulloch), and tell him I wouldn't let him sign it, 'cause he's not the real Boba Fett... That was priceless, I laughed right in his face and everything. There's another con coming up with Daniel Logan, so I'm looking forward to that...
Accusing? Why is everything anyone says on the internet automatically hostile? Take a deep breath; this is supposed to be just a discussion.
<shrug> Relax. It just means I thought your comment was directed at me. Was I acting defensive? I mean really? I thought I was being rather conciliatory.
And the end result is you wind up with a few gems, maybe, sloshing around in a sea of crap... And you can't rely on popularity rankings to tell the good from the bad.
Ahh, but there's the rub, isn't it? One man's crap is another man's "MUST SEE". Of course, most people would much rather tell people what their opinion is about others' creations than actually try their hand at creating.
You've lost me there in your tangled mess of pronouns. I guess you're accusing me (or is it really a more general accusation?) of knocking people who are trying to build something grand - point being that they're building something while I'm just sitting around saying it's gonna suck? That's fair, I guess. But if I'm cynical it's because I've seen more than one fan-produced MST3K-style riffing deal already, and they usually aren't very good.
All I'm saying is a lot of people out there don't give any kind of thought to the editorial process. I just hate this attitude of "I made something and it's not that great but it's good enough to share with the world". If it's "not that great", then fix it, then share it with the world. We can wait.
Rifftrax != MST3K. If it were, you'd have Cambot, Tom Servo and Crow.
What concerns me more: when you set up something like iRiffs, a community for would-be comedians (particularly people who are just interested in it 'cause they all saw the same funny TV show) you run into a few problems...
First, lots of people think they're funny, but aren't. Second, a fair number of the ones who aren't funny will use gags sufficiently cheap (memes, particularly) to boost their popularity... And the end result is you wind up with a few gems, maybe, sloshing around in a sea of crap... And you can't rely on popularity rankings to tell the good from the bad.
I think it's kind of funny that you equate MST3K with "Cambot, Tom Servo and Crow"... I mean, you never even see Cambot. But you left out Gypsy...
OK, fine, but are we gonna have the same story every year until he dies? "Ray Bradbury turns 88" "Ray Bradbury turns 89" "Ray Bradbury died today, he was eaten by wolves" "Ray Bradbury is still dead" I mean, how far does it go?
I like Boston but sometimes I feel like there's some kind of epidemic here that causes people to react to problems in the most brain-dead, paranoid methods possible...
Read "The Hacker Crackdown." When you have the ability to cause a blackout to the phone system of an entire US region - you most definitely do NOT have the freedom of speech.
And why not? Why shouldn't a student of security issues be able to discuss their findings about such a flaw with other security professionals? Why should someone, once they've gone to the trouble of investigating the situation and discovering such a flaw, be barred from legitimately profiting from that work? Just because it's inconvenient for the people who maintain the flawed system?
It sounds like the talk the MIT students were going to give would have satisfied both sides: allowed the students to legitimately profit from their own hard work, while not giving the general public the information needed to circumvent the system.
Don't forget the Yogurt brand cables and other devices.
May the Schwartz be with you!
Spaceballs: the polling host adaptor Spaceballs: the high speed serial cable Spaceballs: the inter-device communications hub Spaceballs: the high-throughput mass-storage device
do you graybeards have a script that scrapes slashdot for the string 'uid' in user comments? i honestly can't think of how else there's such a high correlation for all the 'uid' posts to garner so many old-timers.
Well, see, most of the younger crowd doesn't know this - but back in 1999, in response to the impending Y2K crisis, most slashdot users got neural jacks wired in to help with patching critical date-field-overflow issues. So most of the old-timers on Slashdot don't actually "read" things here, rather the postings are integrated into our overall consciousness as a background process.
Slashdot Mirror
I guess he's suggesting that programmers, as a rule, are generally too nerdy (or at least pragmatic) to be able to do effective PR.
Of course, I can't say I agree. Some people have combinations of skills that defy such cliches... And, additionally, in the case of this story, I'd point out that first, there's really no reason for people to get all up in arms about this "invaders" thing. They should just get a grip, relax, no need to go mental just 'cause someone used a picture of the WTC for something. Second, when the artist decided that the piece wasn't having the intended effect, he pulled it. That's a legitimate creative decision, too...
Tautology
Anything butt taut, I would say...
Yes, many games are just there for the raw entertainment value.
Perhaps that's where we need to ask the question what the purpose of art is. Isn't art created for enjoyment? What is the purpose of a painting? Is it to be interesting to look at? Is it to tell a deeper story? Or is it just to have a status symbol to hang on your wall to look like you're educated? My money's on the last option, modern art has reduced the concept to its foundations by cheaply making something that the buyer can feel good about owning, possibly revelling in the knowledge that no one but him knows the deeper meaning of the picture (though he just read it off the label).
If you were to talk about somebody like Warhol, I'd say that's a pretty good assessment of the situation. But I think this whole cloud of intellectualism built up around art is largely a product of the community surrounding the art, not necessarily the artists themselves. A lot of art is just making things that are somehow interesting to the artist - it's the process of trying to share the mindset that produced the work that leads to things like the "artist's statement"... which depending on the artist could be a serious attempt to convey an idea, a koan-like scrambling process intended to make people think - or just a jumble of nonsense intended to make the artist look smart. And it's often very difficult to tell the difference between the three cases. :)
But I want to approach this question from the other direction, as well: suppose video games are art. So what? Do we place an unnecessarily high level of importance on that distinction?
Specifically, I think when we talk about whether video games are "art" we're really talking about a few separate issues: "Is it worthwhile?" - which is misleading, because lots of art isn't - "Is it a legitimate means of exercising free speech?" - which is also misleading, because that's not the exclusive domain of art... Basically, there's this artificial distinction in which things are only acknowledged as "art" if we have, to some extent, accepted them, and in which the designation "art" lends credibility to them...
I like the cut of your jib, Slashdotter.
Say that again, but with cars instead.
How about Gary Numan style...
"I like the cut of your jib...
...in cars..."
Wrong!
9/11 = 0.82
.81 repeated, actually - and only if you use floating point arithmetic. If you use integer math, you get zero... So you want "9.0/11"
He's where he always is, in his volcano observatory right in the middle of Townsville...
textbook
Repeat after me, slowly: "genre convention"
Conventions?? I love conventions! One time I was at a convention and George Lucas came onstage riding some kid dressed as a Taun-Taun... He was all like "And I thought they smelled bad on the outside!" That was awesome...
Then I brought a giant posted of Boba Fett with me and waited in line to see Temuera Morrison - I thought I might have got in line too late but fortunately he stuck around long enough that I could introduce myself, show him my poster (already signed by Jeremy Bulloch), and tell him I wouldn't let him sign it, 'cause he's not the real Boba Fett... That was priceless, I laughed right in his face and everything. There's another con coming up with Daniel Logan, so I'm looking forward to that...
Accusing? Why is everything anyone says on the internet automatically hostile? Take a deep breath; this is supposed to be just a discussion.
<shrug> Relax. It just means I thought your comment was directed at me. Was I acting defensive? I mean really? I thought I was being rather conciliatory.
Ahh, but there's the rub, isn't it? One man's crap is another man's "MUST SEE". Of course, most people would much rather tell people what their opinion is about others' creations than actually try their hand at creating.
You've lost me there in your tangled mess of pronouns. I guess you're accusing me (or is it really a more general accusation?) of knocking people who are trying to build something grand - point being that they're building something while I'm just sitting around saying it's gonna suck? That's fair, I guess. But if I'm cynical it's because I've seen more than one fan-produced MST3K-style riffing deal already, and they usually aren't very good.
All I'm saying is a lot of people out there don't give any kind of thought to the editorial process. I just hate this attitude of "I made something and it's not that great but it's good enough to share with the world". If it's "not that great", then fix it, then share it with the world. We can wait.
http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
this web comic uses dozens of the little guys in alternating story lines. it's hilarious!
e
Feh. Add that to the pile of game sprite comics and other webcomic formats for people who can't draw...
I'll see your "irregular webcomic" (and maybe recommend some fiber or something) and raise you a brickfilms.
...And with that, our lovely off-topic thread arcs back toward the original subject... Legos...
Rifftrax != MST3K. If it were, you'd have Cambot, Tom Servo and Crow.
What concerns me more:
when you set up something like iRiffs, a community for would-be comedians (particularly people who are just interested in it 'cause they all saw the same funny TV show) you run into a few problems...
First, lots of people think they're funny, but aren't.
Second, a fair number of the ones who aren't funny will use gags sufficiently cheap (memes, particularly) to boost their popularity...
And the end result is you wind up with a few gems, maybe, sloshing around in a sea of crap... And you can't rely on popularity rankings to tell the good from the bad.
I think it's kind of funny that you equate MST3K with "Cambot, Tom Servo and Crow"... I mean, you never even see Cambot. But you left out Gypsy...
OK, fine, but are we gonna have the same story every year until he dies? "Ray Bradbury turns 88" "Ray Bradbury turns 89" "Ray Bradbury died today, he was eaten by wolves" "Ray Bradbury is still dead" I mean, how far does it go?
Hm, yeah, that would have been good...
1-31-07 Never Forget
Damn right...
I like Boston but sometimes I feel like there's some kind of epidemic here that causes people to react to problems in the most brain-dead, paranoid methods possible...
Read "The Hacker Crackdown." When you have the ability to cause a blackout to the phone system of an entire US region - you most definitely do NOT have the freedom of speech.
And why not? Why shouldn't a student of security issues be able to discuss their findings about such a flaw with other security professionals? Why should someone, once they've gone to the trouble of investigating the situation and discovering such a flaw, be barred from legitimately profiting from that work? Just because it's inconvenient for the people who maintain the flawed system?
It sounds like the talk the MIT students were going to give would have satisfied both sides: allowed the students to legitimately profit from their own hard work, while not giving the general public the information needed to circumvent the system.
Tell me you're Caps Lock is stuck....
I'm Caps Lock is stuck...
I'm just guessing here, but maybe it differs from Bluetooth by actually working.
I haven't ever had any trouble with my Wii controllers, so I don't know what you're talking about...
After that comes "holy shit". I'd love to see that one personally.
Well I've heard there's this thing called "2 girls 1 cup"...
Don't forget the Yogurt brand cables and other devices.
May the Schwartz be with you!
Spaceballs: the polling host adaptor
Spaceballs: the high speed serial cable
Spaceballs: the inter-device communications hub
Spaceballs: the high-throughput mass-storage device
Ebay it. Just have to find a seller willing to ship to Oz.
I'm sure lots more sellers would be willing if only the carriers would offer shipping by way of tornado - really not economical otherwise...
do you graybeards have a script that scrapes slashdot for the string 'uid' in user comments? i honestly can't think of how else there's such a high correlation for all the 'uid' posts to garner so many old-timers.
Well, see, most of the younger crowd doesn't know this - but back in 1999, in response to the impending Y2K crisis, most slashdot users got neural jacks wired in to help with patching critical date-field-overflow issues. So most of the old-timers on Slashdot don't actually "read" things here, rather the postings are integrated into our overall consciousness as a background process.
I thought John Wayne was dead... Oh, wait - you must mean the guy from GI Joe, then...
Let's Put our Astronauts in Shuttles that don't use fuel and go green!
The exhaust of the main engines of the space shuttle is water.
The exhaust of the solid rocket boosters is not... What's your point?
+1 Heinlein
Well, you won't get my mod points for a "+1 Heinlein" unless you include a couple chapters of preachy soapboxing through sock puppet characters...