so if you were in a state of the US with EV discounts, a model 3 is definitely worth the price, considering it'd be closer to $26 or $27k with EV incentives.
Here in Singapore you can't even get a really cheap car for that price. A new Toyota Camry costs the equivalent of 103000 USD here.
Yea, but that is a special market, so you can blame your location, situation, and government for that.
The Model 3 won't be $35k there either.
A new Toyota Camry can be had here for under $20k.
well, in NZ we pay alot for gas (not Singapore levels for Cars) and the whole country will have supercharging coverage by end of 2017, We're also around 80% - 100% renewable energy.
you are looking at around $46k for a camry hybrid or $51k for a Petrol Camry, I'd much rather spend around the same (plus or minus %10) on a tesla, something a bit different, and damn cool, than buy a goddamn camry.
and I'll still be saving money, as I was looking at a Ford Wildtrak / Raptor or Hilux Dominator (actually I still am to tide me over)
But this is the ideal work vehicle for me - and I like the fact it is Tech based.
do you know why Camry's are popular fleet cars? because they are reliable and boring as milky rice with boiled beef. yes it is perfectly acceptable sustenance... but joyless, it'll provide you with the necessary calories to ensure your body has the requisite fuel through the day.
we all only get a certain amount of time on this planet, and have no idea how long that is, might as well enjoy it if you can.
thats also why I race supermoto's but that's another story.
not really. the problem is most of the general population are apathetic to many causes, and generally don't care as long as they are able to order the shit they want.
Just like the Iranian centrifuges, which successfully thwarted a determined enemy state, thanks to the use of an Air gap.
Oh wait that didn't help... and neither will an Internet kill switch.
I think the American politicians have been watching too much of the Terminator series.
the only practical purpose a switch like this could have is to cut off widespread uncontrolled communications amongst civilians or to prevent dissenting views being broadcast within the country.
the nefarious uses and benefits to an "internet kill switch" far outweigh the remote chances that are being touted.
I rang them up and argued about the fact I didnt want windows.
they argued it was built into the price.
at the time windows home premium was around $250 odd, so I said I wanted $200 off the price, whether or not windows was installed.
it was easier for them to discount me the price of windows (and I doubt it costs them that much per computer) than it was for them to sell me a laptop without windows.
so forget about trying to get it without windows, the main thing is to not have to pay for it!
and there would be immigration queues like nothing you've ever imagined to move to little ol' Australia, until someone see's all the resources there, so then they'd all be off to little ol' New Zealand who would have been largely unaffected due to the isolation and mostly lack of ability to actually even contribute, and continued to trade with China.
seriously, New Zealand almost has the advantage of being able to respond to "you must fight with us" and we are like, no problem. we've got the dingy packed and 8 of the soldiers are ready to go, but 2 of them are a bit hung over.
of course you could invade with about 15 guys and a large stick, but meh. I digress.
scientifically accepted too, however most religious wouldnt like it.
as for the religious side of the afterlife debate, I'll not get into that, but we do spend our entire life converting energy from one form to another. this stops to a greater extent when we die, however forgoing being destroyed in a fission or fusion reaction the atoms that consist of "you" will continue for a long time,
and the energy that was "you" cannot be created or destroyed, but may be converted in many ways during your afterlife... however you may not be aware of any of it.
we have the dedicated trolly bus fleet, that can switch to running on batteries when there is no power, then back to overhead lines when power is restored,
from what I can see this achieves all the positives of the Korean system and none of the negatives (return times, charge times etc) as they are full time electric but only require the battery power as a backup.
(ok the lines might be a bit unsightly to some, but my point remains)
so this might be the first electric bus system that requires no on the go charging, but is that necessarily a good thing? they still have to plug in sometime.
Ok slightly offtopic, but I live in an area where we have planes flying over head all the time (i'm about 14 - 16 kilometres from a major international airport)
and in the 8 years I've been living here, I've never actually seen a contrail. and yet you guys in the states see them all the time?
(to be fair, where i live is renown world wide for being windy)
not to fuel the conspiracy guys, but in my little out of the way part of the world we don't get contrails...
so I have no idea what a missile trail vs a plane contrail looks like, but I certainly thought it looked like a missile (having now established myself in having no credibility at all)
I think these guys are a massive inspiration. for so long I have dreamed of becoming someones evil nemesis.
now we have RLSH I can take the next step and be a bungling RLSV!
I imagine that a majority of those exorbitantly priced books are available for free download by the "criminal element" if you know where to look.
this isn't a set of lock picks, an assault rifle or a hazardous chemical, its something that can be digitised and distributed pretty easily, and at 150 pages even in a huge pdf it'd probably take between 5 and 10 seconds on a slow broadband link.
so the idea that the "good" guys are going through training programs the "bad guys" aren't privvy to the information in is really more bollocks than anything else.
either the "bad guys" invented what the book is discussing, or they won't have much trouble getting access to it.
actually here in NZ itunes is much more misleading, they have two radio buttons "visa" and "mastercard" once you select one, you can't de-select it, but if you don't select either you can continue on.
I'm usually fairly clued up, but even this had me stumped, especially as thats not how radio buttons "should work"
I apologize if you thought my comments were "fucking anti-american bullshit"
I should have said "north Americans" as you are right, they are having the same issues in Canada as they are in the States,
I was just blown away that it was going on with _apparently_ very little protest in a first world country.
Its probably unfair, but I expect poor regulation and screwed up industry practices in places like India,
and other places that may not be considered the bastions of freedom that countries like Canada and the US are.
In fact there are heaps of countries where I wouldn't be surprised at all at this sort of thing going on (poisoning of water via the frac'ing chemicals and the NG itself) there are plenty of developing nations out there with much worse things happening to their water supplies.
The fact remains thought that I _am_ surprised at it occurring in places like the USA or Canada,
no doubt however this is the start of a much bigger problem to come as the NG shale has been discovered in plenty of other places in the world.
Again, I was not trying to attack the USA nor engage in "fucking anti-american bullshit" if I came across that way I apologise.
I watched "Gasland" the other day, I'm sure it is totally one sided, but as far as polluting water goes that is some full on stuff you Americans let big business get away with.
I mean, flammable gas imbued in your water, is cool for the whole "watch my faucet explode" but aside from that I'd be worried about moving anywhere that has NG shale under it, for it'll be a short time before you are "frac'ed"
I know a couple of hardcore* WoW players who would litterally sit there with the laptop scalding their leg, rather than move it and risk messing up their pvp battle.
I'm sure its the case with other games as well, and people will shift to a more comfortable position when the opportunity arises (such as getting fragged).
As it is small temperature differences can make a massive difference in sperm count.
but don't worry, you'll usually make more!
*some of them have been cured of the habit now. thankfully.
while I've certainly driven cars with the right level of torque (especially diesel turbo utes with huge torque figures... had one that could do 30kph in first without touching the accelerator)
this is not a rule. this is not 100% informative, i would pay money to anyone who could have done anything but stall my last car without giving it a little throttle, and it had a very powerful motor.
but also an exceedingly heavy triple clutch. (to be fair _everyone_ who got in that car stalled it the first time they tried to drive)
but on topic, harddrive and flywheel applications for this tech?
although I don't agree with most of what you said,
I have to agree with you there, life extension is definitely what stands between the human race and the stars,
lets face it, if you had a life expectancy of 1000 years, then the idea of spending a 100 years or so traveling somewhere like Alpha Centauri (or anywhere) becomes a hell of a lot more feasible.
especially if you can work out a way of doing long duration sleeping, or that techniques some monks i read about somewhere do that consumes less energy than sleeping, or whatever.
Space is awesome, but it is mind - bogglingly huge, "space is big. space is Really Big. you may think its a long way down the road to the chemist, but thats just peanuts to space"
the initial costs are massive, and I don't know that the human race are capable of getting more than the first couple of pokes past LEO, perhaps never.
with the problems facing the planet, and the human race, the biggest tragedy that I can see occurring is that we will so focussed on the short term, that by the time we realise we need to harness the availability of resource in space we won't be able to.
I would imagine that if people were more like insects, or there was less of the whole "dignity of self", without getting too utilitarian, it would be easier to get to space.
this is why I believe that any race out there that are space - faring, are much less likely to have a society of "individuals" and instead be more like insects with a ruling class perhaps and then multitude of workers.
it would be free for us to get to space if everyone was "happy" to work towards the common goal for free, whether that is mining the land, providing resources etc.
it gets a big communist, but also reminds me of another saying "slavery gets shit done"
the biggest problem with capitalism / free markets is that unless its something that makes you money it quickly gets "too hard"
if you didnt have to pay for any of the resources, and you had the full supply chain from food through to tech workers, factories, scientists etc. and nobody had materialistic goals,
then bulding a giant fuckoff ship to get to mars would be feasible, so would seeder ships to other systems, because it was "free" as the resources on the planet allow for.
but for the meanwhile I don't think we as a race have a mindset that is capable of putting together giant projects.
I was going to use the pyramids as an example of how you need a driven leader and lots of free labour to achieve truly massive feats (unlike the car and the plane which could be built in a garage)
but then I read somewhere recently that the pyramids may have been built by sub - contractors.
but yeah. I am among many who desperately want to see a push beyond LEO,
I don't expect it will happen, but if someone discovers some way for it to happen I'll be the happiest man off the planet;)
A big issue here in NZ is that it is illegal to force people into unions, and what the SAG and the other unions are trying to force, is that everyone must have a union contract.
in NZ it must be an Opt-in collective, it cannot be compulsory. however that is exactly what SAG, FIA, et al are trying to force.
I don't like facebook, but I can see its value, particularly if you manage it right and use it to share news and photos with friends and family etc. there are other valuable uses, but I use the example.
I still dont use it.
I don't use bebo, or myspace, or facepalm or crotchpunch.
Doesn't mean I have to hate on them.
I use twitter in much the same way other people have mentioned. I don't follow twitter shitters. (people who tweet constantly about inane shite) But I do follow people who provide interesting information, along with people I know and a range of news sites from aljazeera to bbc, to the NZ news site stuff, to Scientific american, and a range of others!
I follow a range of people, and I Find twitter useful because i can fire up my smartphone, pull up my twitter client and get a "snapshot of the world" and that's really what it is, any big news event happens, anywhere in the world I would probably put money on the fact I'll hear about it before anyone who isn't on twitter and isn't directly affected.
XKCD did a great comic about how people could hear about an earthquake via twitter before the actual shockwaves hit them.
but in short, if you don't want to use twitter, then don't, but all that your raging anti-twitter stance says is "I tried twitter but nobody followed me back"
so obviously you had nothing to add, therefore thank you for not using the service, you've increased its value already!
I kind of agree.
to my mind a standalone game, is a bit like a book, when I buy a book I expect it to still be readable*
when I go back to my shelf 5, 10, 20 years later and want to read it.
similar deal with a computer game (ignoring media issues, etc. lets assume I made corrected format shifted backups at the right times).
where as an MMO is much more like a hobby, its done with other people (albeit questionably social) as the most value you get out of an MMO is when you play with other people.
this is more akin to having an specialty sports/hobby facility built, you buy a membership and pay your fees, but its not popular enough.
so I don't think its really fair to categorise MMO's with standalone games.
I wonder how well the audit was done?
I have seen really poor security audits done by professional auditing companies in the past that just showed the lack of ability with the auditors,
as an example we got the following from an audit on a few unix boxes:
"Security risk - High: Telnet not disabled"
"Security risk - High: SSH passwords don't expire"
"Security risk - High: FTP not disabled"
our response?
- no risk, telnet not installed. port not open.
- no risk, ftp not installed. port not open.
- ssh uses a key mechanism. passwords are invalid in all cases.
basically they had a script they ran that would check to see if things like ftp and telnet had been disabled, and if the correct password expiry was set,
they had no idea that you could configure a system that didn't actually _have_ ftp or telnet installed, or that you could set up ssh in such a way that a password was never any good.
I just mention this, even though its great to hate on security - govt. depts. you never know how good the actually auditing is,
there is a saying that those that can, do, those that can't audit*
* this may not actually be the saying. I'm just saying.
Slashdot Mirror
Also, just to be a pedant, Cheapest Toyota camry appears to be $23k - standard trim is closer to $33k and that is before taxes.
http://www.toyota.com/camry/
so if you were in a state of the US with EV discounts, a model 3 is definitely worth the price, considering it'd be closer to $26 or $27k with EV incentives.
Thankfully most places in the world have 10 - 15 amp 240 or 250v at the wall...
Here in Singapore you can't even get a really cheap car for that price. A new Toyota Camry costs the equivalent of 103000 USD here.
Yea, but that is a special market, so you can blame your location, situation, and government for that.
The Model 3 won't be $35k there either.
A new Toyota Camry can be had here for under $20k.
well, in NZ we pay alot for gas (not Singapore levels for Cars) and the whole country will have supercharging coverage by end of 2017,
We're also around 80% - 100% renewable energy.
you are looking at around $46k for a camry hybrid or $51k for a Petrol Camry, I'd much rather spend around the same (plus or minus %10) on a tesla, something a bit different, and damn cool, than buy a goddamn camry.
and I'll still be saving money, as I was looking at a Ford Wildtrak / Raptor or Hilux Dominator (actually I still am to tide me over)
But this is the ideal work vehicle for me - and I like the fact it is Tech based.
do you know why Camry's are popular fleet cars? because they are reliable and boring as milky rice with boiled beef. yes it is perfectly acceptable sustenance... but joyless, it'll provide you with the necessary calories to ensure your body has the requisite fuel through the day.
we all only get a certain amount of time on this planet, and have no idea how long that is, might as well enjoy it if you can.
thats also why I race supermoto's but that's another story.
not really. the problem is most of the general population are apathetic to many causes, and generally don't care as long as they are able to order the shit they want.
Just like the Iranian centrifuges, which successfully thwarted a determined enemy state, thanks to the use of an Air gap.
Oh wait that didn't help... and neither will an Internet kill switch.
I think the American politicians have been watching too much of the Terminator series.
the only practical purpose a switch like this could have is to cut off widespread uncontrolled communications amongst civilians or to prevent dissenting views being broadcast within the country.
the nefarious uses and benefits to an "internet kill switch" far outweigh the remote chances that are being touted.
but remember. Think of the children.
great. so then If im being robbed i can't just give the thief a dongle or my keys.
now he's going to cut my finger off as well.
biometrics aren't that great anyway, a majority of Fingerprint readers especially are rediculously easy to circumvent.
Last time I bought a computer it was via Dell,
I rang them up and argued about the fact I didnt want windows.
they argued it was built into the price.
at the time windows home premium was around $250 odd, so I said I wanted $200 off the price, whether or not windows was installed.
it was easier for them to discount me the price of windows (and I doubt it costs them that much per computer) than it was for them to sell me a laptop without windows.
so forget about trying to get it without windows, the main thing is to not have to pay for it!
and there would be immigration queues like nothing you've ever imagined to move to little ol' Australia, until someone see's all the resources there, so then they'd all be off to little ol' New Zealand who would have been largely unaffected due to the isolation and mostly lack of ability to actually even contribute, and continued to trade with China.
seriously, New Zealand almost has the advantage of being able to respond to "you must fight with us" and we are like, no problem. we've got the dingy packed and 8 of the soldiers are ready to go, but 2 of them are a bit hung over.
of course you could invade with about 15 guys and a large stick, but meh. I digress.
of course there is an afterlife,
scientifically accepted too, however most religious wouldnt like it.
as for the religious side of the afterlife debate, I'll not get into that, but we do spend our entire life converting energy from one form to another.
this stops to a greater extent when we die, however forgoing being destroyed in a fission or fusion reaction the atoms that consist of "you" will continue for a long time,
and the energy that was "you" cannot be created or destroyed, but may be converted in many ways during your afterlife... however you may not be aware of any of it.
I don't know what the cost is, but there are 2.5 times the number of people in Seoul as there is in the whole of NZ,
if one assumes economy of scale, then it would be much cheaper.
however if it is the reverse then it is not so.
that wouldn't stop the feasibility of using a hybrid wired/wireless system as has also been suggested.
not even first at that by the looks of things.
Over here in Wellington New Zealand we have had all electric buses for a really long time, since 1949 in fact.
they aren't 100% always battery powered, but nobody said they had to be. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Wellington
we have the dedicated trolly bus fleet, that can switch to running on batteries when there is no power, then back to overhead lines when power is restored,
from what I can see this achieves all the positives of the Korean system and none of the negatives (return times, charge times etc) as they are full time
electric but only require the battery power as a backup.
(ok the lines might be a bit unsightly to some, but my point remains)
so this might be the first electric bus system that requires no on the go charging, but is that necessarily a good thing? they still have to plug in sometime.
Ok slightly offtopic, but I live in an area where we have planes flying over head all the time (i'm about 14 - 16 kilometres from a major international airport)
and in the 8 years I've been living here, I've never actually seen a contrail. and yet you guys in the states see them all the time?
(to be fair, where i live is renown world wide for being windy)
not to fuel the conspiracy guys, but in my little out of the way part of the world we don't get contrails...
so I have no idea what a missile trail vs a plane contrail looks like, but I certainly thought it looked like a missile (having now established myself in having no credibility at all)
I think these guys are a massive inspiration. for so long I have dreamed of becoming someones evil nemesis. now we have RLSH I can take the next step and be a bungling RLSV!
I imagine that a majority of those exorbitantly priced books are available for free download by the "criminal element" if you know where to look.
this isn't a set of lock picks, an assault rifle or a hazardous chemical, its something that can be digitised and distributed pretty easily, and at 150 pages even in a huge pdf it'd probably take between 5 and 10 seconds on a slow broadband link.
so the idea that the "good" guys are going through training programs the "bad guys" aren't privvy to the information in is really more bollocks than anything else.
either the "bad guys" invented what the book is discussing, or they won't have much trouble getting access to it.
actually here in NZ itunes is much more misleading, they have two radio buttons "visa" and "mastercard" once you select one, you can't de-select it, but if you don't select either you can continue on.
I'm usually fairly clued up, but even this had me stumped, especially as thats not how radio buttons "should work"
I apologize if you thought my comments were "fucking anti-american bullshit" I should have said "north Americans" as you are right, they are having the same issues in Canada as they are in the States, I was just blown away that it was going on with _apparently_ very little protest in a first world country. Its probably unfair, but I expect poor regulation and screwed up industry practices in places like India, and other places that may not be considered the bastions of freedom that countries like Canada and the US are. In fact there are heaps of countries where I wouldn't be surprised at all at this sort of thing going on (poisoning of water via the frac'ing chemicals and the NG itself) there are plenty of developing nations out there with much worse things happening to their water supplies. The fact remains thought that I _am_ surprised at it occurring in places like the USA or Canada, no doubt however this is the start of a much bigger problem to come as the NG shale has been discovered in plenty of other places in the world. Again, I was not trying to attack the USA nor engage in "fucking anti-american bullshit" if I came across that way I apologise.
Speaking of clean water supplies,
I watched "Gasland" the other day, I'm sure it is totally one sided, but as far as polluting water goes that is some full on stuff you Americans let big business get away with.
I mean, flammable gas imbued in your water, is cool for the whole "watch my faucet explode" but aside from that I'd be worried about moving anywhere that has NG shale under it, for it'll be a short time before you are "frac'ed"
I know a couple of hardcore* WoW players who would litterally sit there with the laptop scalding their leg, rather than move it and risk messing up their pvp battle.
I'm sure its the case with other games as well, and people will shift to a more comfortable position when the opportunity arises (such as getting fragged).
As it is small temperature differences can make a massive difference in sperm count.
but don't worry, you'll usually make more!
*some of them have been cured of the habit now. thankfully.
while I've certainly driven cars with the right level of torque (especially diesel turbo utes with huge torque figures... had one that could do 30kph in first without touching the accelerator)
this is not a rule. this is not 100% informative, i would pay money to anyone who could have done anything but stall my last car without giving it a little throttle, and it had a very powerful motor.
but also an exceedingly heavy triple clutch. (to be fair _everyone_ who got in that car stalled it the first time they tried to drive)
but on topic, harddrive and flywheel applications for this tech?
although I don't agree with most of what you said,
;)
I have to agree with you there, life extension is definitely what stands between the human race and the stars,
lets face it, if you had a life expectancy of 1000 years, then the idea of spending a 100 years or so traveling somewhere like Alpha Centauri (or anywhere) becomes a hell of a lot more feasible.
especially if you can work out a way of doing long duration sleeping, or that techniques some monks i read about somewhere do that consumes less energy than sleeping, or whatever.
Space is awesome, but it is mind - bogglingly huge, "space is big. space is Really Big. you may think its a long way down the road to the chemist, but thats just peanuts to space"
the initial costs are massive, and I don't know that the human race are capable of getting more than the first couple of pokes past LEO, perhaps never.
with the problems facing the planet, and the human race, the biggest tragedy that I can see occurring is that we will so focussed on the short term, that by the time we realise we need to harness the availability of resource in space we won't be able to.
I would imagine that if people were more like insects, or there was less of the whole "dignity of self", without getting too utilitarian, it would be easier to get to space.
this is why I believe that any race out there that are space - faring, are much less likely to have a society of "individuals" and instead be more like insects with a ruling class perhaps and then multitude of workers.
it would be free for us to get to space if everyone was "happy" to work towards the common goal for free, whether that is mining the land, providing resources etc.
it gets a big communist, but also reminds me of another saying "slavery gets shit done"
the biggest problem with capitalism / free markets is that unless its something that makes you money it quickly gets "too hard"
if you didnt have to pay for any of the resources, and you had the full supply chain from food through to tech workers, factories, scientists etc. and nobody had materialistic goals,
then bulding a giant fuckoff ship to get to mars would be feasible, so would seeder ships to other systems, because it was "free" as the resources on the planet allow for.
but for the meanwhile I don't think we as a race have a mindset that is capable of putting together giant projects.
I was going to use the pyramids as an example of how you need a driven leader and lots of free labour to achieve truly massive feats (unlike the car and the plane which could be built in a garage)
but then I read somewhere recently that the pyramids may have been built by sub - contractors.
but yeah. I am among many who desperately want to see a push beyond LEO,
I don't expect it will happen, but if someone discovers some way for it to happen I'll be the happiest man off the planet
A big issue here in NZ is that it is illegal to force people into unions, and what the SAG and the other unions are trying to force,
is that everyone must have a union contract.
in NZ it must be an Opt-in collective, it cannot be compulsory. however that is exactly what SAG, FIA, et al are trying to force.
I really don't get the twitter hate.
I don't like facebook, but I can see its value, particularly if you manage it right and use it to share news and photos with friends and family etc. there are other valuable uses, but I use the example.
I still dont use it.
I don't use bebo, or myspace, or facepalm or crotchpunch.
Doesn't mean I have to hate on them.
I use twitter in much the same way other people have mentioned. I don't follow twitter shitters. (people who tweet constantly about inane shite) But I do follow people who provide interesting information, along with people I know and a range of news sites from aljazeera to bbc, to the NZ news site stuff, to Scientific american, and a range of others!
I follow a range of people, and I Find twitter useful because i can fire up my smartphone, pull up my twitter client and get a "snapshot of the world" and that's really what it is, any big news event happens, anywhere in the world I would probably put money on the fact I'll hear about it before anyone who isn't on twitter and isn't directly affected.
XKCD did a great comic about how people could hear about an earthquake via twitter before the actual shockwaves hit them.
but in short, if you don't want to use twitter, then don't, but all that your raging anti-twitter stance says is "I tried twitter but nobody followed me back"
so obviously you had nothing to add, therefore thank you for not using the service, you've increased its value already!
I kind of agree. to my mind a standalone game, is a bit like a book, when I buy a book I expect it to still be readable* when I go back to my shelf 5, 10, 20 years later and want to read it. similar deal with a computer game (ignoring media issues, etc. lets assume I made corrected format shifted backups at the right times). where as an MMO is much more like a hobby, its done with other people (albeit questionably social) as the most value you get out of an MMO is when you play with other people. this is more akin to having an specialty sports/hobby facility built, you buy a membership and pay your fees, but its not popular enough. so I don't think its really fair to categorise MMO's with standalone games.
I wonder how well the audit was done? I have seen really poor security audits done by professional auditing companies in the past that just showed the lack of ability with the auditors, as an example we got the following from an audit on a few unix boxes: "Security risk - High: Telnet not disabled" "Security risk - High: SSH passwords don't expire" "Security risk - High: FTP not disabled" our response? - no risk, telnet not installed. port not open. - no risk, ftp not installed. port not open. - ssh uses a key mechanism. passwords are invalid in all cases. basically they had a script they ran that would check to see if things like ftp and telnet had been disabled, and if the correct password expiry was set, they had no idea that you could configure a system that didn't actually _have_ ftp or telnet installed, or that you could set up ssh in such a way that a password was never any good. I just mention this, even though its great to hate on security - govt. depts. you never know how good the actually auditing is, there is a saying that those that can, do, those that can't audit* * this may not actually be the saying. I'm just saying.