the Quakes and Unreal can both be done like this, it just makes for shitty play at the current level of hardware.
The RuntFest map for Quake3 looks to have a lot of unique textures, although the wall+ceiling+floor use repeated textures. The map is 10mb _zipped_. Most maps even for Quake3 stick to around 2mb. And if you're computer can churn up and spit out q3 levels with 32-bit high resolution textures and all the fixings, for heaven's sake, send one my way!
To repeat: mappers *can* do unique painting of entire levels with any of the 3D game engines currently out -- it's just not practical.
There is indeed a "correct" way to pronounce Linux. I read this statement to imply that the guy was just throwing the limelight OS into the picture to credit his viewpoint, but by mispronouncing it, he proved himself to be bullshitting.
A couple weeks ago every ad in the sunday paper had Daikatana in it for 30-40$. I thought it had finally been released, told everyone I knew, submitted the story to slashdot, but never actually saw it in the store. Guess it never was released..pretty wierd.
I can't disagree with you there. I know my original post was out of anger, but it was still more than "you fsck1ng l4mm4 s14zhd0t suckz n0w r0b 1z s0 st00p1d", I had a point, made it, then backed it up politely in my replies. I also e-mailed the writer of the parent post apologizing for any anger assumed to be directed at him, and clarified that I was only truly pissed off by the two follow-up posts wich were the exact kind Rob was complaining about. The writer of the original post agreed with me, and encouraged me(after my apology for proactively yelling at those people) to continue proactively yelling at those people. I'll still try to do it more politely whenever possible.::shrugs::
Heres the rest of the text in his essay relevant to this thread, since apparently the trolls don't know how to follow links and read relevant literature.. :
(speaking of "this was already posted" messages) These people don't email me. They post it publicly. Considering that I read perhaps 10% of the 3,000 comments posted daily on Slashdot, I miss the vast majority of their complaints. Now I don't care if people want to complain-but often there are bug reports in the complaint that probably could have been fixed if I simply got a polite email. I occasionally read an article that has 30 comments on it, half of which could be summed up by saying:
1.This was posted yesterday 2.Rob is an idiot 3.Slashdot really sucks these days
I'm fine with #2 and #3. You're free to hate anything I do, although the moderators tend to moderate them down because Slashdot sucking, while probably true, is also probably offtopic in a discussion about Holodecks or Light Sabers or Linus coming out of his office and seeing his shadow so transmeta won't update their webpage for 6 months. But if someone had politely emailed #1, then we all could have saved some time.
I dont find as much a problem with the parent post just stating it was posted before as the flamers posting replies, especially Wire Tap's reply. Here is the exact text from his essay that I was basing my complaint on:
Why is it that I post a dozen stories a day, but if one happens a duplicate of something I posted a few weeks ago (hmm, 30 days, a dozen stories a day- that would be 360 stories ago. 300 submissions a day? That would make it 9000 submissions ago. Ooops. Sorry I didn't remember that one) or one that Hemos or Sengan posted yesterday that I missed, or one that they just don't think is up to snuff, there always are a few people ready to chime in helpful criticism: "Slashdot Really Sucks Now" or "This Story isn't Good Enough For Slashdot" or my personal favorite "Is this really News for Nerds?"
Whine whine, I saw this before. Why don't you e-mail CmdrTaco and let him know instead of just whining, "Oh no, my slashdot that I pay good money for has a repeat story out of tens of thousands of submissions" You want an interesting story? Go read THIS. The JERKS hes talking about is you, and the two who replied to your message so far. If you don't like slashdot, fucking go somewhere else, we don't want you here. </flame></troll>
>>because the female characters were generally quicker and more agile than their male counterparts.
First off, to be clear Im not trying to troll, most people think that same thing. In real life, and even in most video games, the female character is faster but less powerful, where the male is slower but more powerful.
Just wanted to let you know that in Quake2 that isn't true. Every player is exactly the same. While a smaller model *is* harder to see, everyone runs at the same speed, is equally "agile", and even has the same "bounding box". The bounding box being an invisible cube around each player used to determine whether the player has been hit. The viewable model is entirely independent of the bounding box. You could make a midget model, but someone could still shoot two feet over your head and hit you, because the bounding box is still there.
C'mon..they're just kidding. They must be! No one could be THAT stupid to think that the song is really anti-Canadian. Unless of course they just looked at the song title and never bothered to: (a) Read the lyrics (b) Watch the movie (c) Think for even one second Most likely it was all of the above, or, in my wettest dreams where there are no morons: (d) They arent completely stupid, and are actually being sarcastic about taking such an obviously sarcastic song seriously.
The entire movie is based on the Canada-haters being IDIOTS, and the Heroes, the boys, stopping their warrantless anti-Canadian drivel. You would have to be seriously fucked up to pay any attention to the movie, or even just the song, and still believe they have anything against Canada.
I couldn't have said it better myself. So, in the exact words of my parent post:
God knows I don't have a social life. But then again, I've never found the idea of getting wasted on a weekend night appealing. I've also found that most people are simply so different from me that it is just not enjoyable to hang out with them. I don't spend time with my family since its so dysfunctional. So I guess I'm a loner.
But without the net, it would be much worse. I simply wouldn't be in touch with anyone. The net doesn't replace what I would have otherwise been doing, it creates something for me to do. I know this because at various points in my life without a computer, I would spend too much time watching TV or playing video games or what have you.
The study was done wrong. Those more likely to use the net are also more likely to be lonely in the first place. The study says that people who spend more time on line spend less time with friends. The reverse is what they really discovered. Those who spend more time with friends spend less time on the computer.
If you're so lazy you can't write your own letter, here is the one I sent to my senator. Troll me all you want, or use it if you like it. Note that the link to (this) Slashdot discussion is at Threaded and +2, so hopefully my senator won't go there and see a bunch of trolls and trash talk. It appears that the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act has passed the House unanimously, and is now on its way to the state Senate. I, along with the vast majority of experiences computer users, find this Act outrageous. It blatantly disregards consumer rights. It also allows software companies to make actions that are clearly hazard at this time. For instance allowing companies to "turn off" their user's software. For a company to do this, there must be some sort of back door to allow the company to access the machine. If the company can access the machine, hackers can (and WILL) use the same back doors to turn off mission-critical software anywhere they please. There are a great number of ways this would be possible, no matter how a company attempted to guard against it. This is just one of MANY concerns we, the consumer, and your consituents, have about this bill. There may be a time for a bill similar to this, but it is certainly not now, and it is certainly not worth losing consumer rights over. If you would like to see the opinions of experienced computer users, visit http://slashdot.org/ It is a news site targeted specifically at the computer users who understand this act and its implications. With each story, Slashdot also allows anyone to post and discuss thier ideas. You will find the community of the most intelligent technology consultants are unanimously against this Act. A link to the ongoing discussion is here: UCITA Discussion http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00%2F02%2F14%2 F2221203&cid=&pid=0&startat=40&threshold =2&mode=thread&commentsort=0&op=Change
Name Phone Number Address Richmond, VA Zip
"Cheapening of Marriage"
on
Quake Wedding
·
· Score: 1
Some Christians are BSing about how this is evidence of the cheapening of marriage in western society and crap. First off, South Africa isn't so very western. And second, the ceremony is total bullshit anyway! What matters is the feelings between the two people, and how they treat each other in the marriage. If they met playing Quake, or just love Quake, whatever, theres no reason not to get married playing Quake. Who says marriage has to be in some boring stuffy church? Hell, maybe the people aren't even religious. BIG SUPRISE FOR YOU CHRISTIANS: Not everyone in the world is Christian! Many people get married because they're in love, not just because God told them they must be married to satisfy natural sexual urges. If anything, going through the traditional wedding shows a LACK of love, if a couple is really in love you'd think they'd do something special, rather than conforming to a few idiot's idea of a "proper" wedding. </troll>
Heh. Arguing is always fun. >>Hmm, could you meet me in person and prove to me that we can go to the moon with our space rockets? >>I've never been there, so how do I know that we can. I have a certain amount of faith in the media/government/humanity as a whole. I don't think the whole space thing could feasibly be a conspiracy, although it is technically possible.
>>Also, prove to me the Earth is round... the laws of gravity would cause the appearance of a curved >>Earth when you look to the horizon, but how do I know any different. If you follow the non-conspiracy side of the above belief, then we actually have proof the earth is round, pictures taken from satellites. The real answer is to the next question though.. >>prove to me that any scientific theory is true for *all* occurences Totally impossible. Any scientist could (I hope) tell you that. Science is just deciding on the explanation that works best. Until something is disproved, you just have to go by what makes the most sense. So, for instance, the Bible has been disproved by scientific evidence such as carbon dating and fossils, which prove that the earth has been around more than 6 days(or whatever) longer than humans. The society-from-society idea is more likely, seeing how our society is on a direct path to producing its own societies. Put that in reverse, and whats to say we didn't come from another society just like ours? What proof is there that we aren't three dimensional playthings on the screen of a four dimensional being's video game? Scary thought, eh? Like I said (i think) in my original statement, the Raelians are pretty clearly wacko, as they didn't just hypothesize about possibilities, but seem to claim precise knowledge of the origin of human's. I was scared off their site before I could find where they claim to have found this knowledge. Probably the same place the bible came from - some wacko's head.:) In defense of the bible though -- it is quite useful as a moral and hygenic guide, whether or not you realize it's all apophryical.
First off I don't see what is so crazy about their humans-come-from-aliens theory. While I doubt they have any support for it, the same is true for your religion as well. Who or what created your God? Did He just appear out of nowhere? Then why couldn't the human race have appeared out of nowhere? It makes much more sense to believe that life on earth was created by another society than from one mysterious omnipotent being. Espcially when you consider we are nearing the same achievment. Between genetics and neural networks, we will (relatively) soon be creating our own species. The AI ones will doubtlessly live in a computer. Every played Creatures? What makes something alive? And as for the genetics, what better way to test the theories of evolution than to plant cells and organisms on another planet, then wait(for a REALLY long time..) to see if they evolve into intelligent beings. I find it funny to read the hippocritical posts calling the Raelians stupid, coming from people who actually believe the apothrycal Bible and in a single God. Despite a multitude of evidence that the Bible is blatantly fallacious. Everything on earth was created in seven days, including humans? Even though the earth has been around for billions of years before humans appeared? Riiiiighhtt.. I hold no religious beliefs. There is no evidence yet to prove where we came from. So far Darwinism is the most reasonable theory, there is no denying that evolution happens. The question is how did the first cells appear, and could evolution really do *this much*, over any period of time? Also: the only reason human cloning should be illegal, is because it has been tested so little with animals. For instance the question: will the clone start out with a shortened lifespan? This idea is that cells have a sort of lifespan clock. The cloned organism would start out with its lifespan reduced by however long its clone-parent had been alive before being cloned. Once cloning is perfected, there is no reason to prevent any stupid/crazy millionaires from cloning themselves. Its their own fault if they're too stupid, like many people on this board, to realize a clone will only look the same. The brain will grow, from a baby, into an entirely different person. Might as well just have sex instead of cloning!
I hope this gets through as a precedent. The unauthorized modification of settings REALLY needs to stop. Too many popular programs out there do crap to the computer without asking. Many of these things they do because they -know- that the average user doesn't have any clue how to undo them. For instance Real. Especially them. They put icons on the desktop, in the start menu, everything without asking. It at least asks about file associations, but when you click "customize" it just shows you EVERY media file type, with a check mark next to each. It doesn't offer any help as to what already was associated, or the like. Real Jukebox turns on CD-audio autoplay every time you run it. I didn't notice this until I recently switched CD drives and decided to use TweakUI to disable AutoPlay crap instead of turning it off at the hardware level. Every time its run Real Jukebox turns on the audio auto play. No where can I turn it off, never did it ask anything. And these are actually pretty mild examples. I wish there were some laws, or at least MORALS which software companies followed, and resulted in user choice for every modification(within reason) to the user's computer.
I'd like an explanation of what this means, if anyone can offer it. As far as I knew 3dfx and NVidia, along with most other 3d cards, worked under linux. All you have to do is get the drivers from your brand's web site. What does this SGI stuff do that those drivers don't?
How about even more approiately, have the penguin opening a WINDOW, letting glorious light shine into a dark room, or to a beautiful view outside, or something to that effect. I.e. stop using WINDOWs, go OPEN source, and the world gets better. Which may be an exageration, but its funner that way:)
Slashdot Mirror
Be sure the Grits for Natalie Portman Foundation is included, since thats what all the katz trolls love best!
"Somewhere in the world, right now, there is at least one Natalie Portman without adequate grits in her pants"
the Quakes and Unreal can both be done like this, it just makes for shitty play at the current level of hardware.
The RuntFest map for Quake3 looks to have a lot of unique textures, although the wall+ceiling+floor use repeated textures. The map is 10mb _zipped_. Most maps even for Quake3 stick to around 2mb. And if you're computer can churn up and spit out q3 levels with 32-bit high resolution textures and all the fixings, for heaven's sake, send one my way!
To repeat: mappers *can* do unique painting of entire levels with any of the 3D game engines currently out -- it's just not practical.
There is indeed a "correct" way to pronounce Linux.
I read this statement to imply that the guy was just throwing the limelight OS into the picture to credit his viewpoint, but by mispronouncing it, he proved himself to be bullshitting.
Again, thats just how I read it...
A couple weeks ago every ad in the sunday paper had Daikatana in it for 30-40$. I thought it had finally been released, told everyone I knew, submitted the story to slashdot, but never actually saw it in the store. Guess it never was released..pretty wierd.
I can't disagree with you there. I know my original post was out of anger, but it was still more than "you fsck1ng l4mm4 s14zhd0t suckz n0w r0b 1z s0 st00p1d", I had a point, made it, then backed it up politely in my replies. ::shrugs::
I also e-mailed the writer of the parent post apologizing for any anger assumed to be directed at him, and clarified that I was only truly pissed off by the two follow-up posts wich were the exact kind Rob was complaining about.
The writer of the original post agreed with me, and encouraged me(after my apology for proactively yelling at those people) to continue proactively yelling at those people.
I'll still try to do it more politely whenever possible.
Heres the rest of the text in his essay relevant to this thread, since apparently the trolls don't know how to follow links and read relevant literature.. :
(speaking of "this was already posted" messages)
These people don't email me. They post it publicly. Considering that I read perhaps 10% of the 3,000 comments posted daily on Slashdot, I miss the vast majority of their complaints. Now I don't care if people want to complain-but often there are bug reports in the complaint that probably could have been fixed if I simply got a polite email. I occasionally read an article that has 30 comments on it, half of which could be summed up by saying:
1.This was posted yesterday
2.Rob is an idiot
3.Slashdot really sucks these days
I'm fine with #2 and #3. You're free to hate anything I do, although the moderators tend to moderate them down because Slashdot sucking, while probably true, is also probably offtopic in a discussion about Holodecks or Light Sabers or Linus coming out of his office and seeing his shadow so transmeta won't update their webpage for 6 months. But if someone had politely emailed #1, then we all could have saved some time.
I dont find as much a problem with the parent post just stating it was posted before as the flamers posting replies, especially Wire Tap's reply.
Here is the exact text from his essay that I was basing my complaint on:
Why is it that I post a dozen stories a day, but if one happens a duplicate of something I posted a few weeks ago (hmm, 30 days, a dozen stories a day- that would be 360 stories ago. 300 submissions a day? That would make it 9000 submissions ago. Ooops. Sorry I didn't remember that one) or one that Hemos or Sengan posted yesterday that I missed, or one that they just don't think is up to snuff, there always are a few people ready to chime in helpful criticism: "Slashdot Really Sucks Now" or "This Story isn't Good Enough For Slashdot" or my personal favorite "Is this really News for Nerds?"
Whine whine, I saw this before.
Why don't you e-mail CmdrTaco and let him know instead of just whining,
"Oh no, my slashdot that I pay good money for has a repeat story out of tens of thousands of submissions"
You want an interesting story?
Go read THIS.
The JERKS hes talking about is you, and the two who replied to your message so far.
If you don't like slashdot, fucking go somewhere else, we don't want you here.
</flame></troll>
>>because the female characters were generally quicker and more agile than their male counterparts.
First off, to be clear Im not trying to troll, most people think that same thing. In real life, and even in most video games, the female character is faster but less powerful, where the male is slower but more powerful.
Just wanted to let you know that in Quake2 that isn't true. Every player is exactly the same. While a smaller model *is* harder to see, everyone runs at the same speed, is equally "agile", and even has the same "bounding box". The bounding box being an invisible cube around each player used to determine whether the player has been hit.
The viewable model is entirely independent of the bounding box. You could make a midget model, but someone could still shoot two feet over your head and hit you, because the bounding box is still there.
C'mon..they're just kidding. They must be! No one could be THAT stupid to think that the song is really anti-Canadian. Unless of course they just looked at the song title and never bothered to:
(a) Read the lyrics
(b) Watch the movie
(c) Think for even one second
Most likely it was all of the above, or, in my wettest dreams where there are no morons:
(d) They arent completely stupid, and are actually being sarcastic about taking such an obviously sarcastic song seriously.
The entire movie is based on the Canada-haters being IDIOTS, and the Heroes, the boys, stopping their warrantless anti-Canadian drivel. You would have to be seriously fucked up to pay any attention to the movie, or even just the song, and still believe they have anything against Canada.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
So, in the exact words of my parent post:
God knows I don't have a social life. But then again, I've never found the idea of getting wasted on a weekend night appealing. I've also found that
most people are simply so different from me that it is just not enjoyable to hang out with them. I don't spend time with my family since its so
dysfunctional. So I guess I'm a loner.
But without the net, it would be much worse. I simply wouldn't be in touch with anyone. The net doesn't replace what I would have otherwise been
doing, it creates something for me to do. I know this because at various points in my life without a computer, I would spend too much time
watching TV or playing video games or what have you.
The study was done wrong. Those more likely to use the net are also more likely to be lonely in the first place. The study says that people who
spend more time on line spend less time with friends. The reverse is what they really discovered. Those who spend more time with friends spend
less time on the computer.
If you're so lazy you can't write your own letter, here is the one I sent to my senator. Troll me all you want, or use it if you like it. Note that the link to (this) Slashdot discussion is at Threaded and +2, so hopefully my senator won't go there and see a bunch of trolls and trash talk. It appears that the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act has passed the House unanimously, and is now on its way to the state Senate. I, along with the vast majority of experiences computer users, find this Act outrageous. It blatantly disregards consumer rights. It also allows software companies to make actions that are clearly hazard at this time. For instance allowing companies to "turn off" their user's software. For a company to do this, there must be some sort of back door to allow the company to access the machine. If the company can access the machine, hackers can (and WILL) use the same back doors to turn off mission-critical software anywhere they please. There are a great number of ways this would be possible, no matter how a company attempted to guard against it. This is just one of MANY concerns we, the consumer, and your consituents, have about this bill. There may be a time for a bill similar to this, but it is certainly not now, and it is certainly not worth losing consumer rights over. If you would like to see the opinions of experienced computer users, visit http://slashdot.org/ It is a news site targeted specifically at the computer users who understand this act and its implications. With each story, Slashdot also allows anyone to post and discuss thier ideas. You will find the community of the most intelligent technology consultants are unanimously against this Act. A link to the ongoing discussion is here: UCITA Discussion http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=00%2F02%2F14%2 F2221203&cid=&pid=0&startat=40&threshold =2&mode=thread&commentsort=0&op=Change
Name Phone Number Address Richmond, VA Zip
Some Christians are BSing about how this is evidence of the cheapening of marriage in western society and crap. First off, South Africa isn't so very western. And second, the ceremony is total bullshit anyway! What matters is the feelings between the two people, and how they treat each other in the marriage. If they met playing Quake, or just love Quake, whatever, theres no reason not to get married playing Quake. Who says marriage has to be in some boring stuffy church? Hell, maybe the people aren't even religious. BIG SUPRISE FOR YOU CHRISTIANS: Not everyone in the world is Christian! Many people get married because they're in love, not just because God told them they must be married to satisfy natural sexual urges.
If anything, going through the traditional wedding shows a LACK of love, if a couple is really in love you'd think they'd do something special, rather than conforming to a few idiot's idea of a "proper" wedding.
</troll>
Heh. Arguing is always fun.
:)
>>Hmm, could you meet me in person and prove to me that we can go to the moon with our space rockets?
>>I've never been there, so how do I know that we can.
I have a certain amount of faith in the media/government/humanity as a whole. I don't think the whole space thing could feasibly be a conspiracy, although it is technically possible.
>>Also, prove to me the Earth is round... the laws of gravity would cause the appearance of a curved
>>Earth when you look to the horizon, but how do I know any different.
If you follow the non-conspiracy side of the above belief, then we actually have proof the earth is round, pictures taken from satellites. The real answer is to the next question though..
>>prove to me that any scientific theory is true for *all* occurences
Totally impossible. Any scientist could (I hope) tell you that. Science is just deciding on the explanation that works best. Until something is disproved, you just have to go by what makes the most sense.
So, for instance, the Bible has been disproved by scientific evidence such as carbon dating and fossils, which prove that the earth has been around more than 6 days(or whatever) longer than humans.
The society-from-society idea is more likely, seeing how our society is on a direct path to producing its own societies. Put that in reverse, and whats to say we didn't come from another society just like ours? What proof is there that we aren't three dimensional playthings on the screen of a four dimensional being's video game? Scary thought, eh?
Like I said (i think) in my original statement, the Raelians are pretty clearly wacko, as they didn't just hypothesize about possibilities, but seem to claim precise knowledge of the origin of human's. I was scared off their site before I could find where they claim to have found this knowledge. Probably the same place the bible came from - some wacko's head.
In defense of the bible though -- it is quite useful as a moral and hygenic guide, whether or not you realize it's all apophryical.
First off I don't see what is so crazy about their humans-come-from-aliens theory. While I doubt they have any support for it, the same is true for your religion as well.
Who or what created your God? Did He just appear out of nowhere? Then why couldn't the human race have appeared out of nowhere? It makes much more sense to believe that life on earth was created by another society than from one mysterious omnipotent being.
Espcially when you consider we are nearing the same achievment.
Between genetics and neural networks, we will (relatively) soon be creating our own species. The AI ones will doubtlessly live in a computer. Every played Creatures? What makes something alive?
And as for the genetics, what better way to test the theories of evolution than to plant cells and organisms on another planet, then wait(for a REALLY long time..) to see if they evolve into intelligent beings.
I find it funny to read the hippocritical posts calling the Raelians stupid, coming from people who actually believe the apothrycal Bible and in a single God. Despite a multitude of evidence that the Bible is blatantly fallacious. Everything on earth was created in seven days, including humans? Even though the earth has been around for billions of years before humans appeared?
Riiiiighhtt..
I hold no religious beliefs. There is no evidence yet to prove where we came from. So far Darwinism is the most reasonable theory, there is no denying that evolution happens. The question is how did the first cells appear, and could evolution really do *this much*, over any period of time?
Also: the only reason human cloning should be illegal, is because it has been tested so little with animals. For instance the question: will the clone start out with a shortened lifespan? This idea is that cells have a sort of lifespan clock. The cloned organism would start out with its lifespan reduced by however long its clone-parent had been alive before being cloned. Once cloning is perfected, there is no reason to prevent any stupid/crazy millionaires from cloning themselves. Its their own fault if they're too stupid, like many people on this board, to realize a clone will only look the same. The brain will grow, from a baby, into an entirely different person. Might as well just have sex instead of cloning!
I hope this gets through as a precedent.
The unauthorized modification of settings REALLY needs to stop. Too many popular programs out there do crap to the computer without asking. Many of these things they do because they -know- that the average user doesn't have any clue how to undo them.
For instance Real. Especially them.
They put icons on the desktop, in the start menu, everything without asking. It at least asks about file associations, but when you click "customize" it just shows you EVERY media file type, with a check mark next to each. It doesn't offer any help as to what already was associated, or the like.
Real Jukebox turns on CD-audio autoplay every time you run it. I didn't notice this until I recently switched CD drives and decided to use TweakUI to disable AutoPlay crap instead of turning it off at the hardware level. Every time its run Real Jukebox turns on the audio auto play. No where can I turn it off, never did it ask anything.
And these are actually pretty mild examples.
I wish there were some laws, or at least MORALS which software companies followed, and resulted in user choice for every modification(within reason) to the user's computer.
I'd like an explanation of what this means, if anyone can offer it.
As far as I knew 3dfx and NVidia, along with most other 3d cards, worked under linux. All you have to do is get the drivers from your brand's web site.
What does this SGI stuff do that those drivers don't?
How about even more approiately, have the penguin opening a WINDOW, letting glorious light shine into a dark room, or to a beautiful view outside, or something to that effect. I.e. stop using WINDOWs, go OPEN source, and the world gets better. :)
Which may be an exageration, but its funner that way