Slashdot Mirror
Voices from the Hellmouth Released in Paperback
Yes, comments from Slashdot are used. They are short, terse quotes that provide in /no/ way indentification. That would cross privacy boundaries I'm not wiling to cross. We choose to use them to try and express to the rest of the world who will read this book the sort of things that happen to real people.
I tried to contact some of the commenters originally, but ran into dismal success. As well, many people were posting anonymously. Obviously, they were impossible to reach.
So - summary: Yes, comments were used. They were posted in a public forum, which means that anyone can quote from them - but we've removed any sort of identifying marks, to protect people. This was down to impress upon those reading the gravity of the situation.
Hello, my name is Danny Rumpleminz, and I am the president and chairman of the Coalition to Arm Unstable Local Kids (CAULK.) Since you are donating the proceeds of this book to charity, I thought I would mention my own charity in the hopes that perhaps I might prevail upon you to donate to me.
.. a shotgun, a revolver, an assault rifle, a crossbow, anything, only to come up empty. Perhaps they live with irresponsible parents who don't own any weapons. Perhaps they live under the iron-fisted regime of a Democrat who is hell-bent on cutting down on unnecessary guns (as if there is such a thing.) And so each day, thousands of unstable teenagers are denied a deadly weapon, which is a clear violation of the Second Amendment.
Each day, thousands of unstable teenagers seek in vain for some type of firearm
CAULK aims to fix the problem by purchasing and distributing low-cost, high-quality firearms to depressed and/or homicidal teenagers. There are different plans; for example, you can borrow a firearm for a limited period of time, or you can arrange for CAULK to retrieve the firearm from the evidence room at the police station when you are through using it. CAULK also prides itself on providing generous supplies of ammunition. We buy 7.62mm clips in bulk from Afghanistan and pass the savings onto you.
The money you donate to CAULK will go primary to purchase ammunition and firearms, but it will also help defray some of our administrative and court costs. Naturally, the country is full of liberals who would attack the Second Amendment rights of all unstable teens. We need money to fight these monsters in court.
Anyway, I hope you like my charity and give me lots and lots of money. Thanks.
this is too bad if the archive really is incomplete. the biggest reason, IMHO, to add nntp access to Slash. having only ONE centralized location for discussions is problematic. folks should be allowed to create their own personal archives EASILY.
Chapter VII:
"The Master Troll: Articles by Jon Katz"
It was and is a great idea, and seems it is being handled honorably. The great volume of responses to "Hellmouth" was a terrible and wonderful outpouring of truths that had been suppressed in America long before I was born (long ago), and it was DAMN well time that it came to the surface. Thus it is FANTASTIC that you've gotten it out where everyone can see and benefit from it. Thanks for your efforts, Hemos, and don't let the bastards grind you down.
Is anyone else astonished that Taco has a girlfriend?
IANAL, BUT if any of those posters whose comments were included were under 13, then you have to get their parents permission to print anything, especially if they were registered users of /.
Congrats to Mr. Katz and Slashdot - what this tells me is that Slashdot does have a large influence on controversial topics like school violence, censorship, and the ever-prominent "geek profiling." Hopefully this can provide some closure for everyone involved in these tragedies. Most importantly, it's good to see that the money is going to a good place. For those of you who read "She Said Yes," the diatribute of Misty Bernall about her lost daughter, Cassie, you noticed the disturbing scent of a book deal. Made for TV movies are undoubtedly in the works. Kudos to Slashdot for taking the ethical route. I wish you all the best of luck in convincing people around the world that the most successful and powerful way to combat violence is the grassroots, tried-and-true idea that all people should be treated equally.
Please read the other comments - public forums do not operate the same way that say, the stories on CNN does.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Yes - at some point. Not yet.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
When all is said and done, we will say how much we give to charity. I've spent a huge amount of time in the last two months trying to make this happen. We're not the target - it's the teachers and parents who e-mail all the time wondering about their kids. That's who needs to read this. And I wish that I could have contacted everyone but it was not possible. I tried everything I could.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Posts in a public forum can be quoted - and consider how little is quoted per quote, it falls under acceptable use.
Inconvient doesn't begin to describe. I spent 25 hours trying to track down people and got *one* response. The book would have happened if we had to do that with all.
As for the cost of book, that's because we're donating money.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
I'm not sure about the only availible on Amazon - we cannot stop them from carrying it, but the link is to ThinKGeek, which is decidely not Amazon.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
If you'd read the other comments, you'd see that we're looking at doing a cheaper book, as well as an ebook version.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
I should correct myself - it's NOT just on Amazon. Dumb me. We're trying to avoid Amazon.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
We've actually kept many of the controversial ones, specifically because I think they have a message to convey. I hope we've been able to portray the situation accurately - heaven knows i've spent enough time reading and re-reading it. ;)
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Correct answers from Jim - and once we figure this whole thing (It's been a whirlwind to put together), I think we could look at having the community decide charity proceds.
It is a selective compilation - but no indentifying marks have been used. Comments posted in a public forum, while the responsibility of the poster, can be quoted by anyone.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Actually, I answered that - three times already. Anyway: Yes-it does include comments. No, there are no indentiying characteristics. That would be illegal to do without permission. I attempted to contact the initial rounds of people, and meet with such dismal success that we went to just quoting from the public forum.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
No, it will not include all the comments - we took a look at /everything/ that we had, and edited from there.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Read above post - they are not pulled verbatim. I'm sorry that people think that's what we're doing - it's a book. It tells a broad story.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
We're working on it. :)
Yeah, I'm that guy.
The cover's expensive to print, not the creation of the image.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
For the most part, that's what was done. If I remember, there's only a couple cases of otherwise.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
--
--
Just lurking, thanks!
No way he was an NT supporter-- don't you remember the frantic anti-GUI rants, and the claims that if you didn't have an idea how a computer works, you shouldn't be using one?
Can you remember what was the name of this controversial 18 year old from Russia who believed GUIs were a conspiracy from hell? I remember being outraged at the treatment he got from Slashbots-- when the moderation thing was being started, there were tons of guys basically asking for him to be banned from /. The guy was a jerk, but he just expressed his opinions fervently and defended them very actively.
Yeah, I remember the good old times where the closest thing to disruption in Slashdot was Meeeept, the first first post messages (which I though were funny, and was totally mystified at people who hated them from the very beginning), BoReDAtWoRk (not sure you got the caps right) and his cluestick, KDE and Gnome developers flaming each other publicly in /., and so on...
Thank you for your posting.
It will be a featured piece in my upcoming book
'The Trolls Of Slashdot' available exclusively from everywhere but amazon.com.
Sure, public messages such as those posted here are fair game for quoting, but that quoting must attribute the author. Otherwise it's plagerism.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
The name of the charity is "Getting girls for geeks". The basic purpose is to hire prostitutes for under-sexed, over-stressed geek guys who would otherwise have to do something crazy like shooting up a school.
Bored,
Been a long time. I agree with you entirely. Kind of like Methos in the Highlander series, the fight just goes out of someone when they keep having to whack heads off people who don't use them. But its interesting there is usualy a whole new set of freedom fighters waiting for their turn at the job. Such is the progression of Slashdot.
Glad to see your still around...
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^
I think. He was a really prolific writer. Sometimes there were forums of 200+ comments and he had over 15 active threads working at one time. This was before we had user ID's and could track when someone replied to us. He was amazing at what he could do.
I remember him complaining about user interfaces in general, saying that they were evil. He even thought Siag was too easy. His basic argument was they allowed users to be stupid, so users were stupid.
Sure enough there is truth to this, but he took it to a whole new extreme.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^
And in line with Katz. He complained a bit about being censored on slashdot. He came back a once or twice under different versions of his name, and some people started pretending to be him. They had a hard time matching his wit and intelect behind the exestential bantering. A few months ago he made another appearance, it was the old MEEPT to be sure. Complete with a Geek Chorus complaining that they couldn't run Decent on their Apple ][. The Gnulix hero suggests they run it with the ascii libraries and then sed'ing for the enemy. It was always a classic blend of the current discussions, and making fun of the geeks around him. Like a St Lious Cardinals fan shouting obesenities about the Chicaco Cubs, in Chicago, in the home section. He was truely a master of his form. Chapter one should be "BoReDAtWoRk with a cluestick". That guy was the show then.
^~~^~^^~~^~^~^~^^~^^~^~^~~^
Why not use Doc? (For the Palm Pilot). There's readers available for almost all portable formats, and can be easily reversed into Plain-Ol'-ASCII.
Just a thought.
GPL thumping, Free software loving, Anti-Microsoftin' hippies.
Crack smoking, commie loving, nazi hippies!
Monkey butler, drug smuggler, hip hugger hippies!
Spouting legal mumbo jumbo like you know what you're talking about.
Why don't you go drink some more beer until you come to your senses.
You copyright blabbing, back stabbing, mouse padding hippies.
Jeeze...
/ k.d / earth trickle / Monkeys vs. Robots Films /
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
Yes, I know it's past due for a new sig. I've been trying to come up with something just as witty. Writer's block I guess.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Actually, I didn't lie, but I am just messing with Katz.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
If the original posters weren't contacted in some way, how credible are their posts? How credible is the book? And if, as I fear, some of the stories submitted were fake, how is that going to help "the geek cause" (pardon the generalization)...
I must admit I would be interested in purchasing this book even though I am not the biggest Katz fan.
However, I will not purchase it until I am sure which 'charity' the proceeds will go to. I'm sure as hell not going to buy it if the money goes to some anti-gun group.
It could be.... When someone does something for charity, they do it for one of two reasons. 1) It's the right thing to do, or their chosen way to support X cause. 2) They're doing it because the charity work reflects well on them. Consider the fact the Al Gore gave out around $15,000 in charitable contributions last year, way way up from his numbers in 1998 of only a few hundred dollars. Dan Quayle, while in the VP seat under George bush gave donations of ~17k, $2934, 3624, and 5670, respectively. A big hit while he and George were campaigning that first year, then a drop an consistent increases as the re-election year approached. Making some product and 'giving away the proceeeds to charity' IS self promotion if you tell everyone, from the get-go, that you ARE giving it all away. You are promoting your own philanthropy. Producing a book and putting a note in the liner, or title page saying 'all proceeds from this book have gone to charity' isn't. It's kind of like shouting out "Look at me and the good work I do" rather than letting the other people whisper it for you. The true philanthropist gives because he/she wants and feels it helps people, that his/her money can be beneficial in some way. Also, the idea that "the proceeds are going to an unknown cause" raises question. What charity? Does anyone EVER name the charity that the money went to? I doubt it would happen here if nobody raised this point. Now that the point is raised though, we'll get an update when a decision is made, I'm sure. And continued selfpromotion of Taco's "look - my girlfriend helped - go see her website" also is self promoting. The whole thing smacks of self promotion, by the folks at Slashdot and also at Andover. But, I suppose that's simply because the ad revenues aren't quite enough to pay 'ed.' their money and pay for the bandwidth this site requires. Gotta publish a book on it. Be a philanthropist for philanthropy's sake, not for your own. And, may I close with a quote from the bottom of the slashdot home page: "Comments are owned by the Poster."
-- There is no sig line, only Zuul.
Really, maris, I'm embarrased you might think it's me. As much as I hate Katz, there's no way I'd sue, especially over so-called intellectual "property", and especially not a company I own stock in...
Seriously, this is just dumb. Slashdot is an open forum, anyone can read the comments anyway. Plus, there's the issue of anonimity - there was stuff said on Columbine I'm sure people wouldn't want sent out to the world at large - and you'd have to get rid of the AC comments, some of the most insightful. I have my own set of issues with the Columbine story, but I'm not going to sue because someone published 3 lines I said about it.
Windows 2000: Designed for the Internet. The Internet: Designed for UNIX.
I might be. 6'4" and 270 lbs.
LetterJ
The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
Minneapolis, MN
LetterJ
The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
Hey...yeah, by this same philosophy (The whole - hey, there's a copyright notice and you still own the stuff, but this is a public forum so anyone who wants to can reprint your comments!) couldn't someone decide to, say, print a newspaper using Slashdot headlines and stories? After all, each story is just the original posting that starts off the main thread of comments in this self-proclaimed "public forum".
Perhaps Andover would look at things differently if the situation was reversed like this...
I have to agree with your general idea here: A lot of people get killed all of the time. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that more then 17 people were shot last weekend in L.A. However, wearing a black trenchcoat to piss off folks is a step in the wrong direction; more compassion/understanding is needed, not less.
If it worked as it should most of TrollMastah's eminently ignorable tripe would wind up below a certain threshold, based on previous moderations, because s/he's proven that s/he can't be assumed to be posting something of the minimal acceptable quality, and the (surprisingly) good stuff s/he's posted lately would be moderated up so that *it* could be seen at a level that blocks the other stuff, and after enough of having "mended her/his ways", the moderation induced karma increase would put her/him back amongst the trusted.
Unfortunately, the recent influx of attack moderators (who I'm convinced are moderating under one account and using another to post just as heavily as those of us who post too frequently to qualify as moderators anymore) has severely undermined an otherwise workable scheme.
Further discussion of this should be directed to sid=attack_moderat or
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
When you change your sig file, it changes on *all* of your posts retroactively, not just the ones posted after the change. If you go back over threads from the past few days that I have posted to, you'll see a number of replies expressing *opinions* about the sig my comments originally appeared with.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I took a look at some of FascDot Killed My Pr's last 50 posts. Apparently s/he routinely posts without the extra point.
Out of 6 Score:2 's, the other 5 were all submitted as Score:1 and moderated up.
6 Score:1 's I checked at random started out that way and were not submitted as 2's and modded down.
S/he also has 2 +5's, 2 +4's, 3 +3's, 1 =0, and 1 -1.
Seems like a judicious use of a fairly well deserved bonus point.
Do you realise that you are one of *14* moderators who wasted points on a post that wound up with the same score it started at?
Since I rarely use my bonus point either, I won't use it here. (watch Taco's code hiccup and make a liar of me. Why can't he set it up as default off, check the box for on?)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I feel weird every time I say something nice about Katz too, but I try to do so whenever I think it's warranted. The problem here isn't really with Katz, though, it's with Slashdot. If, as others had suggested, they had announced their intentions in advance and asked if anybody had a problem with being quoted and pointed out at the time the good that such a book could do, I suspect that the reaction would have been quite different.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
"...actually this isn't self promotion."So your name won't be on the cover or otherwise prominently featured? :-)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Now that I'm browsing at +2, I do avoid a lot of junk, but I sorta miss seeing my own posts
As I have pointed out previously, it's self-deprecation style humor, the idea being that I'm snobby enough to browse at +2, but not good enough to get moderated up that high.
A number of responding posters *appear* to take it literally and don't understand how I can reply to posts that are scored under +2. The ones that seem sincerely puzzled I respond to politely, but there are others that respond in full flame mode. I'm not as polite with them.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I'd suggest that the profits from this book not be given to a traditional charity, but for something else: From the money gathered from the sale of this book, give a copy to each and every school Principal, Vice Principal, Counselor, and whoever else needs to hear. Get students from every school to make sure that these books get to the people who need read them, and make sure that they do. That is what will do the most good, by far.
GStreamer - The only way to stream!
Definitely an evil conspiracy..(but nobody's making you read it, right?) I like the boldface. It's kind of artsy.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
I have permissions from thousands of posters -- many of whom sumbitted their comments to be passed along to media or included in any public discussion or book, but I didn't put this book together, so I don't know.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
...The cover is terrific
jonkatz@slashdot.org
I don't think one can make that judgement without reading the book, frankly. It's not in any way tacky, in my view, nor do I think anybody will see it that way.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
Somebody who gets it.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
...but a lot of kids, parents and others have been e-mailing asking for it in print form. Nobody has to buy it, and nobody is making any profit from it.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
The columns and responses (those that could get posted) are still archived on
jonkatz@slashdot.org
I'm intrigued by that one. I might try it.
I think the timing of this is perfectly appropriate. There were all sorts of victims at Columbine. First and foremost the dead kids. Then the sick kids who killed them. Then the thousands of kids whose lives worsened because of the hysteria that followed. I'm very proud of this book, and quite willing to be judged by anybody's who's read it. As to those of you howling about one thing or another without having read it, nuts to you.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
...this would be controversial, and it is. The messages were sent to be published, the kids demanding it. I have absolutely no regrets about that.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
I respect Rob's attitude about hype, but actually this isn't self promotion. That would be making the book for profit, and neither he nor anybody else is doing to many any money from it. He's being overly modest. It's a neat thing he's doing by publishing it. Nobody else would. If you want to get into self promotion, imagine what a commercial publisher would do with it.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
I didn't publish or edit it, or assemble it. I'm not making any money off it. I hope people buy it for the sake of the people messaging, but it's not my book. I am proud of it, though and very happy it's being published.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
I didn't pick the posts or put the book together, so I can't answer all of these questions, and I don't know whether the comments included were after people were asked or not..they may have been..but I believe people are not ID'd by e-mail or name, and as public posts in a public forum, they are reprintable. I don't know if people were consulted or not -- many probably were not available, but I don't know the answer to that.
I think there isn't much new material, apart from one of the Wave America columns. I have no idea about the cost, except it must be the production cost, since nobody is making a profit. There's no way to add "new" material to a discussion that was centered on specific columns and responses.. A lot of people have been asking for the columns and responses to be gathered so they could get them more easily than can be done on the site. Kids wanted them. So did teachers and parents. Good for
jonkatz@slashdot.org
I don't know. IT's not an OS issue, that I can see, but one for
Repeating a point: More than 20,000 probably people in all have e-mailed Slashdot or me about the Hellmouth series and Columbine. The vast majority of these were from kids who were asking me to get their messages out..to contact media, schools, publishers anybody..Not only were they offering permissiion, they were begging to get their stories out. Many of them did talk to reporters
I understand the noise-making dynamics of Slashdot's Teen Hate Squads, but there is no issue of who owns comments here. The comments were sent to reach the world,a nd thanks to Slashdot, a handful of them will.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
Besides all this, the spirit of slashdot is about sharing information. Freedom of knowledge, building a better world through a community of ideas.
What sort of a wanker would post on slashdot and then goes off searching for a lawsuit?
Believe with me, my saplings.
It's not merely a matter of fair use, I suspect. In my experience many, if not most, "public" forms of this sort tend to retain a "collected work" right. I imagine that between collected work rights and fair use rights, there might be room for the way this was done.
Will we be able to download the book? C'mon Andover, follow through here....
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
All this media attention a year later only attracts and inspires more copy-cats. Your journalistic freedom may indirectly cost us more lives.
In my town of Santa Barbara/Goleta there have been several separate threats of Columbine like violence in the past week. The more you and the media keep talking about it the more it happens.
I don't really think this book helps heal anything any ways. That type of "healing" happens between individuals, face to face, not through some menelogium of half inspired comments from an author interspersed with stolen Slashdot comments.
Thanks.
W
-------------------
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
They should post a request for charities, and the top ~10 moderated ones (just like interview questions) get voted on in the poll.
Fair use allows quotes and small excerpts but it does NOT allow complete duplication of a work, which seems to be what is going on here.
Use it to arm geeks in public schools so they stand a fighting chance :)
I'm only mostly joking
Finkployd
God....Whine some more. Slashdot posts news, and sometimes it's about the things that are happening to/for them as a group. If sounds like Katz had help from Hemos, and perhaps more of the /. crew.
If you don't want to read it, it's as simple as skipping to the next one.
If you don't want news about slashdot itself, then filter that away too....otherwise please stop polluting the forum with mindless whining..
- The unexamined life is not worth leading -
God I hope there was a hint of sarcasm in there. If so, ignore the following:
It is people like you who contribute to all of the problems for people who are considered to be outcasts to society. If Elian wasnt a picture perfect face, was 15 years old, or anything that wouldnt just make you smile just looking at a picture of him, you wouldnt give him a second thought. It is living around people who share your "only the pretty and popular deserve to be happy" attitude that builds up all of my(im not speaking for the rest of us geeks out here, although i hope the understand where im comming from) aggression towards popular society.
> The fact that they were cold-blooded mass murderers sort of trumps their "victim" status, I'm afraid. NOTHING excuses their crime.
Yes, you are right that nothing _excuses_ their crime, but victim and criminal aren't mutually exclusive. I see too many people throwing away lessons that can be learnt from this sort of thing by painting one side as pure good and another as pure bad.
They were cold-blooded mass murderers, and what they did was wrong, but some of the treatment they received was also wrong, and neither wrong justifies the other. Look at the whole system of what went on, and try to find ways of dealing with the underlying causes.
> Human nature really has not changed, and likely will not.
But it's part of human nature (some humans anyway) to try and find ways changing human nature for the better. Of course we'll never fully succeed, but it's the trying to create a better society, and whatever gains we make along the way, that is important.
just an idea.. but shouldn't you really be able to do both- play with computers and play soccer or tennis?
and above all else- talk to people?
frankly, i don't care how shy or introverted you are... if you're incapable of being a social animal, then you're missing out on a lot (including .. yes, jobs. we won't hire people who don't look you in the eye, talk the talk, walk the walk, and do everything well... raw skills are nothing when you can't chatter, too. welcome to the real world.)
whiny losers.
I would not, however, post a comment saying "IP law sucks. Get rid of it altogether." Others would. The difference here is that realists are posting more about the potential misuse of their own property than the idealists who like to post about something that has no significant impact upon them. I disagree. Realists argue that since ideas are not physical objects, they cannot be owned. Idealists and dreamers argue about the contrived legal niceties of posting comments to Slashdot.
Aye!
Go ahead, Quote me.. in fact, someone already has:
http://www.raven-games.com/linuxheretic/
It may make me fear for your sanity, but it won't make me whine like a little girl.
Praise the Force Field! Praise the Laser Project! Slackware Loon #19830573
this is so true, none of the female population of m school would even talk to me unless there computer was broken or something
how unfair life can be
"...httpd does this every time someone clicks 'reload' (well, ok, not resell, but for ad profit), and I hope you agreed to that."
Yes, but you know before you even hit that submit button that what you submit will be displayed on a page that also displays ads for the purpose of making money for the site owner. You know that, and it is your choice to post it or not based on the knowledge that it will be displayed in this manner. What you didn't know was that a year from now that site owner was going to take that post and sell it as part of a book without giving you credit or even asking your permission to do so.
You didn't know that, in fact you were assured by that site owner that this sort of thing would not happen. The little copyright statement at the bottom of the page "All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2000 Andover.Net." reassured you if you were unsure. But you were betrayed. Your copyrighted work stolen and republished without attibution.
I don't care who you are, or what your motivation that's just plain WRONG!
Hi,
Given the nature of the company publishing the book and (to a certain extent) given the source for its content, have you considered releasing the text for the book under a free license? For instance, the same license as is used by a number of 'New Riders' books.
Cheers,
Graeme.
Are publishers out there paying attention? "In the beginning was the command line" "The cathedral and the bazzar" and now "Voices from the hellmouth" are all books in paperback form that previously were/are availible online. Both "Command Line" and "Cathedral and Bazzar" are selling very well. nice to see OpenSource books make money. :)
George Lee
So the lesson you would have us all learn here is that the furthering of the "common good" is justification enough to trample upon individual rights -- i.e. the ends justify the means. Note that I am addressing the attitude you have regarding "looking out for number one." (In fact, I don't think individual rights are being violated here, but that is a different argument.) It is despicable that people should care about their own individual selves, their rights, their lives. Instead, they should lay down, be used, say "thank you, Sir!" and shut the hell up because its all for a good cause. No doubt it's a good cause. But if there were considerably greater respect for individual rights, which means respect for individual lives, there would not have been a Columbine trajedy to begin with.
Well then, as you are scanning the front page of /. when you see the words Jon Katz, just shut your brain down and move on to the next article. I know you can shut your brain down, you just proved it with your post!
Or is a large man dressed in black leather holding your eyelids open FORCING you to read about Katz? Didn't think so. Move along, folks, nothing to see here.
Eric
Here is the deal... They acted like Nazis but as it turns they weren't.
They played Doom however game players are typicly no-violent.. the person who wouldn't kill a fly in real life needs to blow it all off with vertual killing sprees...
They were geeks... nope not even sligtly...
What do we know?
Very little.. almost nothing...
They planned this a long time ago.. Not 2 weeks before the killing, not 6 months...
We can imagin the teasing was the trigger. But the it could be just as likely the teasing was simply a result of the planning. They were werd BECOUSE they were psyco.
So this couldn't have been stopped?
No one knew they were psyco only diffrent and had someone stopped and talked to them they would realise this isn't your typical "geek" and gotten help.
The fact that they were treated badly is sad..
However the primary issue here is more than once they were diffrent people wanted to go on a geek witch hunt... find the next killer. Ohh becouse geeks are killers... well two are.. well accually they arn't geeks at all but we want them to be so we can harrass the real geeks some more.
What caused this psycotic outrage?
Who knows... it started far to long ago... any clue faded...
Had people attempted to be decent they'd know something was wrong and gotten help...
Had the parents of the killers gotten involved in there kids lifes they might notice the killer obsesion...
The basic idea here is to deal with people as people. Not as objects or icons. No more acting as if your program...
10 if tragaty then hunt down anyone vagely simmiler to media bies
20 if signs of psycotic behavure surface then ignore it...
I think they just got into the Killer theme to prepair themselfs.. to plan this day for YEARS.
I don't actually exist.
stupid censors^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmoderators. I was just poking a little fun at Jon Katz's style of using L's instead of one's when he writes a number in his column.. why is that? bad OCR? or does he really confuse the l with the 1?
Absolutely, you're absolutely right.
While reading this I thought about companies which give away software for free and get yelled at by slashdot readers for not GPLing.
People, read that book, see if you like it, see if you are cited and for heavens sake sue hemos/jonkatz/slashdot/andover or whoever you like.
I never did write a book, but if i had done it I would be proud of my work. Then reading slashdot and see people nitpicking instead of expressing curiousness (sp?) or interest should be damn frustrating.
I can't speak for anybody else, but when I post here I do so with the assumption that I will not receive monetary compensation (or even personal recognition) for doing so. While I doubt that anything of mine is quoted in this book, I would consider it an honor, not a ripoff, if my comments were deemed worthy of publication.
Not to forget the fact that you (and everyone else, even the grits and portmans and 1st posters) posted because a wanted people read your thoughts.
Being quoted in book just broadens the auditorium.
Now.. your comments are being used in a book, the proceeds are going to charity, and the purpose of the book is to share the information with people who cannot get here or do not come here. (I mean, if they can get here, we all have read the Hellmouth series.. why would we need a book?) Now all of you start whining about "credit" and "unfairness". Tell me how this is different from Redhat selling GPL'd code and making money off it? Oh, yeah, I know, they sell support. *chuckles* Whatever. Most people walking into CompUSA don't even know they can download Redhat for free.. at least not those that walk into CompUSA's looking for Linux. So anyway, you code something and Redhat sells it. Now is it because you get credit on the final product? Heck, that's even MORE justification to get compensated for it. But no one seems to have a problem with redhat.. or even worse, Corel or Storm. Those are two companies that took the very distribution that has a "free or not" inclusion method and turned it around to make money on it. Money that doesn't even go to Debian. Don't you find that insulting? No. You support companies like that. YOu laud them. You say things like, "WHy don't more companies do that?"
And yet, when we have a chance to share the information with more people.. with NO ONE involved in the publication making money.. with charity being helped.. you start bitching. What the heck is this, people? What sick double standard exists here? You have NO problem helping companies like Redhat or Storm or COrel by having your code GPL'd and included.. but the chance your comments here have to do SOME good you resist it? I mean GOOD, folks. Stuff that MATTERS. What if your comment saves fifteen people's lives? What if someone really needs to see your comment to understand it?
OH, but I don't want my comment to reach people that don't come to slashdot. And yet you have no problem with the GPL? Grow up, folks. Make a damn difference for once in your life.
Oh.. that's right.. most you all don't code. You just are here to help flame.
Jarrod Henry This comment is FREE to the public, free to the world.
Actually, Jon, I rather like your stories. They're troll-bait because they are thought provoking, and few people like to think.
--------------------
Your comments posted in a public online forum can be printed in a for profit publication, without credit, without compensation.
And the "only available on Amazon" just makes you shake your head.
The crew at Slashdot is really dropping the ball on this one.
If you can't do it right, don't do it. "But it will make money" even if it's for charity, doesn't make it right.
Of course Jon Katz is exploiting us: that's what reporters do.
This is most common in reporters who cover foreign countries: they are outsiders there, foreigners, sent to watch what is going on, and report back to the people at home. They exploit the local people to tell stories to their compatriots, and sell newspapers/television ads/whatever.
That doesn't mean that they don't *sympathize*, or understand what the local people are going through --- and the alternative for the local people is to have no news go out.
Like it or not, computer geeks are newsworthy. We're newsworthy because we work for and found companies that dominate the economy; because we develop technology that nobody else understands; because we *are* distinct from the rest of society, even if we can't agree on how we are distinct.
So, as newsworthy people, we attract reporters who don't understand us, and are using us to make a living by trying to explain us to everyone else. Jon Katz is one such.
But he's also doing something that other reporters aren't doing: he's trying to explain to us *how the outside world sees us*. Sure, he does it in the guise of trying to explain to us how we see ourselves --- but it's still something no other reporter making a living covering us is trying to do, and he should get some respect for it.
Whether or not the animals in their cages resent being held captive, zoos do serve an important purpose. They are there to make people aware that we're not the only animals on the planet and perhaps encourage us to think a bit more on how our actions might impact species besides our own when we act. Now extend this to Columbine and Mr. Katz' book. Perhaps "Voices from the Hellmouth" could be said to serve the same purpose. It's an attempt to make people aware of others differences and perhaps encourage them to think a bit before acting out against the weirdos. It could be argued that Columbine may never have happened had the kids involved been more accepted among their peers. The post-Columbine backlash was just more of the anti-geek mentality on a much wider, and more official scale. This may all be common sense to you and me, but it may not be to other people. Sure, his actions may not be perfectly conceived, but IMO they're better than no action at all.
"Doesn't he realize that we're human beings too? And maybe, just maybe, we just want to be left alone to do our thing?"
"Don't people realize animals can suffer, etc just like we can? And maybe, just maybe, they just want to be left alone and do their own thing?"
I think Mr. Katz is well aware of this. In fact, I think that's the entire aim of his book -- to hopefully make life a little easier for someone out there by attempting to make others realize that geeks are people too.
Just as an interesting aside, I heard once that the rate of teen suicide has nearly exactly mimicked the rate of teen murder for a long, long time. No kid will kill themselves if they think they have a worthwhile future, and the same goes for killing others.
Well, that could be a factor, but not all teen homicides end in suicide, obviously. What the study showed is that many kids are depressed, frustrated, whatever, to the point where they feel they have no future so spending the rest of their life in prison, or ending it becomes their only perceived option. Some percentage have a tendency towards killing, some towards suicide, and some towards both.
All I see are words words words. Blah Blah Blah.
You are posting a public forum!
---
Ryan Wilhelm
Lotus Notes Administrator
Executive Risk, Inc.
Yeah, sure you are.. pull the other one, its got bells on it.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
That guy rocked. I wonder where he went?
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Something at a bookstore that your average Joe can pick up and think about. Maybe Joe is an alcoholic who beats his kid, and the book will make him think twice about the consequences. Or maybe Joe is the leader of a local PTA who thinks that her son's school "would be just fine if it weren't for those few creepy kids who dress in black all the time and spend all their time on that Internet-thing." Do you seriously think that those people would buy the book? Or for that matter, that _any_ people is going to buy or read it for any other reason than patting themselves on the back and saying 'that's what I thought all along'? "And, for Pete's sake, make sure they don't sell it on Amazon.com!" Sure... God forbid that the book be sold somewhere prominent where people who *aren't* geeks might find out about it. Let's make sure we're only preaching to the choir, here. Yeah, that makes sense. Advocate a boycott and then use the company for distribution. "When we say boycott, what we really ment was that you shouldn't use it unless it's convenient for some reason. And besides, this is an important matter and Amazon is really big and stuff". Personally, I don't give a shit if money is being made from this book, or if the comments are being used without credit or whatever. I'm just saying that right now you're all up on your high horse saying that this is good for the ./ "community", but the individuals in it who say things you don't like can go fuck themselves. For me, that just doesn't compute. My middle finger is bigger than yours. Have the decency to shut up if you want to tell me that Andover has turned into the bloody salvation army.
--
--
"It's natural to expect there might be people doing stupid things with computers." - Michael Vatis, NIPC/FBI
OK, I'll try this again. Thanks, Slash, for removing the HTML tags after previewing!
./ "community", but the individuals in it who say things you don't like can go fuck themselves. For me, that just doesn't compute.
Something at a bookstore that your average Joe can pick up and think about. Maybe Joe is an alcoholic who beats his kid, and the book will make him think twice about the consequences. Or maybe Joe is the leader of a local PTA who thinks that her son's school "would be just fine if it weren't for those few creepy kids who dress in black all the time and spend all their time on that Internet-thing."
Do you seriously think that those people would buy the book? Or for that matter, that _any_ people is going to buy or read it for any other reason than patting themselves on the back and saying 'that's what I thought all along'?
"And, for Pete's sake, make sure they don't sell it on Amazon.com!" Sure... God forbid that the book be sold somewhere prominent where people who *aren't* geeks might find out about it. Let's make sure we're only preaching to the choir, here.
Yeah, that makes sense. Advocate a boycott and then use the company for distribution. "When we say boycott, what we really ment was that you shouldn't use it unless it's convenient for some reason. And besides, this is an important matter and Amazon is really big and stuff".
Personally, I don't give a shit if money is being made from this book, or if the comments are being used without credit or whatever. I'm just saying that right now you're all up on your high horse saying that this is good for the
My middle finger is bigger than yours. Have the decency to shut up if you want to tell me that Andover has turned into the bloody salvation army.
--
--
"It's natural to expect there might be people doing stupid things with computers." - Michael Vatis, NIPC/FBI
>P.S. I don't use any moderating system. I consider it self-censorship.
Wow. You're SO cool.
--
--
"It's natural to expect there might be people doing stupid things with computers." - Michael Vatis, NIPC/FBI
I really do feel a book relying heavily on slahsdot posts is very much against the spirit of slashdot. Admitting that you didn't even really try to contact all the posters makes the whole thing seem morally dubious and will hurt the rep of this site far more than it will help. Now everyone will be wondering "Will Katz quote me in his next book? The one where he's not donating the profits to charity?"
To me, this is the "Great Crime" (TM) of Columbine and most major breaking news.. Everyone jumps in with their analysis before the actual facts have been gathered, let alone reviewed. By it's very nature, /. contributes somewhat to this phenemona, BUT, it's clear that the contributions of readers are OPINIONS.
So, since the jury is still out (or at least the book is not yet in), I can't deny the validity of your concerns. Most are well founded, yet they are valid only within specific circumstances which may or may not actually apply. I can't help but compare your post to the legions of major media reports on the Microsoft trial written by people who obviously never read any of the actual court documents.
I'd be far more interested in your analysis after you've reviewed the book, and encourage you to offer up a review for slashdot.
Ignore your feelings about his writing style, his topics, whether or not you feel he is a "geek" or not and try to understand what happened to him.
I had the pleasure of meeting Jon for lunch not long after the Hellmouth series. The discussions ranged the entire breadth of his writing experiences and was generally pleasent and informative. (BTW, he does NOT consider himself a geek).
On the Hellmouth subject, however, his entire demeanor changed. He was no longer the Rolling Stone/Wired/Slashdot author, but a human being that struck a cord that tens of thousands of high school students that responded directly to HIM, mostly privately. Seeing and hearing the man, you cannot convince me that anything that this man does on THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT has anything at all to do with "personal benefit". I believe he feels a strong sense of duty to do whatever he can to ease the pain of these youth, although I'm not sure that he has any real idea HOW to do so.
Also remember, you were picked on. I was picked on. At some point everyone was picked on. Kids pick on each other and we survive. This is only a small piece in the puzzle that unravelled in the responses to the Hellmouth series. The picking is now not only condoned (or at least ignored) if perpetrated by the "in" croud, but Columbine opened the door for institutional "picking" by school administration. The crys from the Hellmouth were not as much "the jocks beat me up", but "The counsellor asked me how I felt, I answered truthfully and now I'm expelled."
Maybe I'm a minority in /. demographics, but I have 2 teenage children. It has been a constant war with public school personnel to deal with what is going on under their noses. They know what's going on, but rarely admit it. When you make it clear the you know what's going on, they shut up completely. Here's another big hoax perpetrated by the public school system. Despite their calls for volunteers, they do NOT want parents involved unless they are willing to do exactly and only what the are asked to do. If you are a parent, just try to volunteer for something that YOU think would make a difference but they don't.
In the final analysis, the real victims are our children, all of them in every school, and that puts the future in jeopardy.
Push it up the bestseller lists, gain mass-marketing attention, and get it in the hands of people who get their news from the TeeVee.Has anybody seen any reports regarding the final report of the Columbine event? Me neither. The closest I've seen is like a page A-12 2 inch newspaper column saying something to the effect of: "It didn't really happen that way."
(sigh)
We may eBook it eventually, but not for the time being - no good clients exist with broad support yet
As many have pointed out, XML, HTML, PDF, or even plain text would do.
Of course those are not 'e-book' formats, I guess hemos has become a braindead marketoid...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
You know, Seeing this post really makes me lose respect for you. You don't like Jon Katz, you are upset with the fact that your filter didn't protect you from even the faintest glimmer of his exsitance. So what do you do? you come, and read the comments about it. Do you know how lame that makes you? Katz didn't write this post, someone else did. You didn't need to read his writing, only about him. And it wouldn't be that much trouble if you just ignored the post manualy, instaid of spending god only knows how much time bitching about it.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I'm going to buy a copy of this book, and I'm going to read it cover to cover. If I find a single unaccredited, uncompensated use of one of my comments (and I posted a lot during Columbine), I'm going to have my lawyer sue the following:
Do you think that when you submit a comment to slashdot, you do notgive VA implicit permission to republish your work? If there wasn't, then you could sue them when the comment showed up on the site. The information is available on a web page, with advertisements. They made money off your posts before, if you cared why did you post at all?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
If anyone's ever believed that disclaimer was for anything other than removing
Are you going to sue me because I'm quoting you? This has never been anything besides a public forum, and if you think otherwise, you're delusional. There's no secret password to log on, no secret handshake, nothing.
Besides, how can we take your "complaint" seriously when your nickname is so close to CmdrTaco's? Maybe he should sue you; that space can't be enough to protect you from litigation.
Look for the part that deals with the collecting,organizing and editing previous works into a anthology.
I think public forums are defined in section 101 or 102. There are some rather bizarre amendments to the law, but the it still seems to favor Slashdot.
Alternately how about "Free speech as in: not on Slashdot, where you have to pay for it"?
I don't care if it gets moderated down, because it sure is redundant, but I'd have to say this is the best slashdot comment I've ever read.
Whenever I post to slashdot, I am basically full aware that I essentially no longer have any control over where my words will end up. I realise this. My posts may end up in thousands of proxy servers, cache's, people may save them to disk, chop quotes from them, republish them etc .. chances are I will never even know about it, so there is nothing I can do. In fact, chances are there are organizations who perform auto-profiling on /. users and posts. Copyright? How many people on the web case about copyright when they "File/Save As" or "Right-click/save-as" on images and web pages while they're browsing?
I post anyway, despite all this. I don't see how you could have posted to slashdot without realising any of this; and if you don't agree with it, don't damn well post. I won't believe you if you try to tell you were of ignorant of this when you posted.
"Have you considered that some posters will want to be credited for what they wrote? I certainly would"
I imagine the logistics of attempting to track down the author of every post on those threads (just to get permission from the two or three who would want to be credited) would have made the book an impossibility (there is no way in hell you're going to be able to do it; I live in South Africa and made several posts to those threads, were they supposed to phone me to get my permission? They would first had to get my work phone number, somehow - then they would have had to get hold of me during business hours in GMT+2 time .. etc etc, you get the idea, multiply by however many thousands of people posted). So (from their perspective) I imagine there were only two options: (1) publish the book with all comments anonymous, or (2) don't publish the book at all. I myself would rather have the book, as it is, than have no book.
So get over it. Your whining over your IP sounds even worse than Metallica's.
Does anyone know / think that Katz (or anyone) will publish the text online? I assume that it contains some different (extra) things that the series on Slashdot didn't.
Maybe I'm the biggest. I'm 6'6" and 405 lbs.
Gotta go, it's lunch time!
Since:
a) this is based on comments from Slashdot readers
b) proceeds are going to charity
c) and we all *know* about JK's support for open source...
**Where is the downloadable version**
... or did ya forget?
DonkPunch like OOG, too. Therefore, OOG in chapter 2. DonkPunch think OOG good early troll.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Actually, I think you guys make pretty good cookies. And that treehouse is cool!
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Second Edition. I promise.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
My apologies for the redundancy, by the time I composed, and posted on my 28.8 you had indeed answered the questions, when I started you hadn't. My fault, and thanks for answering my other posts near the top.
You did everything you could, hrmmm, except maybe asking a general opinion before you went ahead with this project. I am not saying that you are the target at all, just that rights are being stepped on and all that seems to matter is this book not the people that made is possible in the first place. Face it without the posters here at /. "Voices From The Hellmouth" would not have been possible. Many of us disagreed with Katz wholeheartedly and would be offended to have our comments published in a book by him even if we got no credit for them whatsoever. The obvious issue with money isn't the only problem here. It goes much deeper than that. I know that I am opposed to my comments being published (Although I figure none of mine were used), I am offended at the correlation of the announcement and the annivesary of the tragedy, and now even more so that the posters aren't even going to get credit at all. This adds up to someone not caring about anything but getting their point across, unless you published all the comments and didn't abridge, the only logical conclusion is you chose only the comments that illustrate your position on the issue when it was a discussion of tremdous magnitude and multiple viewpoints. If people are e-mailing they obviously have internet access and could come read the whole thing. You say you did everything you could, I don't even think you did half of what could be done. I agree with another poster that /. needs to have an option for the users that don't want their comments to appear in print.
Yet another issue, what if some of the posters have political beliefs that oppose the charity you choose, then they have without their consent helped someone they disagree with, and you still hold to having done everything you could ? What about our right to not support something we disagree with ?
I re-read the posts above my first one and well it wasn't redunant so oh-well I get hacked at the mod monsters now...
I have seen both Hemos and Katz respond to selective questions yet neither of them has responded to the most obvious, the ones about OUR comments. This disturbs me highly. Quite a few of us that post here might not want our comments published espicially if Katz's name is on the book. So how about an answer guys, are our comments in it, and if so did you bother to think about the adverse effects it could have on some of us if a parent or manager read the book and recognized one of us ?
When Dear Abby or her sister Ann Landers rerun am old letter they did not
have to get permission again or publish a book using of letters.
Also at time news papers will get letters to the editor that thy will run
again if there has been a big flap over the subject and are printing a
special section with all of the letters and articles on the subject.
Just out of curiousity, what threshold do you read at? -1? Your own stance seems to indicate that that is sufficient for you.
James
It's April 20th. Can you guys be at least a little bit sensitive to the families and friends of those involved? Three of my close friends teach there, and knew those two assholes personally. They don't represent any rift between "geek culture" and the rest of the world, they are just a couple of pricks who have did immeasurable damage to the lives of teachers, students, families and friends of those involved in what happened and gave pompous blowhards like Katz a license to pontificate on the state of American culture and media. I'm done venting now.
When asked why, they reply, "Fuckers like that just piss me off," and resume their abuse.
So deep-rooted is their need to demonstrate that, though detested and scorned as weak by some, they are not without power, for they retain the ability to degrade another.
-jcl
-jcl
I agree that they weren't geeks, but for a very different reason. I don't remember any reports that they were actually all that knowledgeable about any technical subjects. They had a Web page and gamed, maybe even made a few levels for Doom. (Can that be right? From the reports you'd think they'd never heard of Quake.) The same can be said of jocks and members of every other not-blatantly-Luddite group in High School. Media opinion aside, knowing how to use Frontpage does not make you a geek.
I don't think, however, that morality is relevant to whether one is a geek. I consider your average Evil Genius to be a geek just as much as the Heroic Scientist who vanquishes him before going to commercial. There are certainly geeks who have jobs oriented toward violence (gunsmiths, combat engineers, a lot of weapons crews in Today's {Army,Navy,Air Force}). There are geeks with fairly flexible beliefs about right and wrong, who do consider violence to be a solution at times, who lie to their bosses, and who steal from their equipment suppliers (not that I have anyone specific in mind
-jcl
"I do not and never ever will care a fleeting fuck about their nurishment, their rights or their suffering which may have influenced their actions."
There is some small irony here: you state that, unlike them, you have a conscience and can tell right from wrong, yet you don't care about their rights or whatever suffering they may have experienced.
Actually, I can sympathize a bit, but I don't believe I could suspend my feelings on moral grounds. I simply can't stand seeing people in pain--any people, regardless of their crimes. I'm glad Klebold and Harris are dead, and had I been offered the chance I would have happily helped them to the Great Beyond, but that doesn't mean I can condone their suffering. Like you, I don't give a fuck about Harris and Klebold, the murderers. But I absolutely give a fuck about Harris and Klebold, the individuals capable of suffering. That they happen to be the same people is inconsequential.
"One of the fundamental properties which separates humans from animals is the fact that humans can determine right from wrong, good from bad."
Actually, this isn't true: many animals--primates especially--have some minimal sense of morality. Caring for others and whatnot. More than many people, anyway.
"When you say "the killers were victims of a different sort", you're simply filling in the void of cause and justifying their actions."
You seem to be confusing victimization with justification; the former can exist very easily without the latter. If you are robbed, you're a victim. If you respond by tracking down the thief and killing him, you're a murderer who happens to have been a victim. You are most definitely not justified, but that doesn't alter the fact that you were robbed, or that the robbery is the reason you committed murder.
"Regardless of whether someone truly is a victim of some form of abuse, you never ever encourage vengeance by justifying their violence."
I disagree. There are times when it is appropriate to take revenge, including killing the abuser. They are rather extreme cases, certainly well beyond being teased in school, but "revenge is wrong" is not the first thing that comes to mind when someone is using a 3 year old as a handball.
-jcl
Quotation without credit is not considered quotation. It is considered plagiarism. Help yourself in future endeavors. Make your disclaimer similar to Technocrat.net's, in which Bruce Perens clearly states that both he and the poster can republish the comments.
------
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
Okay, you can switch one word with another.
Provide some backup arguments, and I'll be happy to talk. Until then, the sky remains blue.
------
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
Amazon.com patents are bad - they shouldn't be able to protect their ideas...but...Slashdot readers' post's copyrights are good - they should be able to protect every word.
Amazon patenting "one click shopping" IS bad, no matter which way you cut it.
People are upset because at the bottom of EVERY FREAKIN PAGE it says the POSTER OWNS THE COMMENTS.
We all assumed OWNERSHIP meant exactly that. Now we find that it means "you're responsible for your comments, but you don't really own them in any meaningful way". This is bullshit lawywer doublespeak simply because its more convenient for Katz and Co.
At least be honest and remove the promise of ownership from the bottom of the pages. This little dance we're seeing today is quite disgusting.
How about instead we talk about the actual book and the potential good it might do for kids dealing with the shit in it?
How about we put the book online so these selfsame young geeks can read and consider it without having to track it down and order it?
How do teenage geeks order a book online without a credit card or checking account in any case?
At LEAST how about we charge a much more reasonable 7 or 8 bucks for the book so the kids might actually be able to afford it!
Have you guys considered doing it as an Ebook? Ie. downloadable PDF? That could be marketed for about $2-$3 with much less overhead/print costs, and the same profit per copy. (One of my clients who's into this sort of thing tells me Fatbrain is going to be opening up an Ebook marketplace in the next month or so)
The only fitting charity for the profits is one devoted to helping the kids who are drowning in the hellmouth.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I had thought about suggesting all the posts and columns and whatever be collected up and published, way back when, but forgot to mention it (great minds think alike anyway :) You're doing a good thing, to help publicise the depth of the problem as seen from reality rather than "how we'd like things to be".
:(
I'd be amazed at the idiots who pipe up with "How dare you violate my copyright" except that 1) most of them only know the parts of the copyright laws convenient to what they WANT to believe, 2) they do it all the time wrt the idol of opensource, 3) how dare anyone do anything for the greater good without their permission! Argh, I'd like to smack 'em.
"It's not what you don't know that will hurt you. It's what you DO know that isn't so." -- Lois McMaster Bujold
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
In Alberta we're facing the anniversary of a copycat "rampage" (I hate that word) where a boy who was rather sickly (he had a heart operation aftewards, I think) and mental and picked on went to his school in a blue trenchcoat and killed one student, wounded another.
Virk's case is extremely shocking, and proof that something in society is failing and we are turning out mean children who grow up to be mean and abusive adults. It's so easy to blame the obvious reasons, but I bet you 100% that most of these things are caused by children who are unable to control anger, have low self-esteem and see no hope in their own future at such a young age.
I'm glad this book is being published, although perhaps connecting all the geeks in the world with two sociopaths isn't the best way to go about pointing out the torture geeks suffer at the hands of their classmates.
/. are correct to do so. IANAL, so as far as I can tell, it's perfectly legal, but that doesn't make it *right*. I am aware that trying to track down the original posters would've been a major pain in the you-know-what, but the least Andover could have done would've been to post a story on /. before the decision was made to take these comments to print. I like Free Information and all that, but this kind of feels like someone taking software that's open source and turning around and selling it without giving due credit to the authors. (I'm not sure that sentence made sense, but I think you know what I mean.) It's legal, but is it ethical? I think a lot of trust has been lost with this action and Hemos, CmdrTaco and the rest should realize why. Everyone's allowed a mistake now and then but this is a pretty serious gaffe.
I feel like the posters who are questioning the inclusion of comments posted to
I don't expect the original posters to be paid for their "work" in the book, but an apology for not providing advance notice to the people who contributed is probably in order.
I agree, the argument that there is no good eBook format yet is only applicable to proprietary works. There is no shortage of formats that have open source reading software available.
If the book is being distributed without the intention of profiting from it, then any of the above formats should be fine.
Work for Change & GET PAID!
Maybe this is silly, but did anyone think of changing slashdot itself so that when I logged in, it would ask me if I gave permission to use my comment? (assuming, of course, you wanted one of my comments)
For some strange reason, this seems like the natural answer to me, but given SlashCode's apparent sluggish changing, I'm not suprised it never happened.
-- It is too late for the pebbles to vote, the avalanche has already started.
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:56:36 -0500
/. that you're releasing VFTH in paperback form. :)
Subject: Re: V.F.T.H.
From: Jon Katz [jonkatz@slashdot.org]
To: Nick Disabato [nickd@nickd.org]
Hey Nick, I don't know for sure..I didn't choose the voices selected, and
names aren't being used..I'll try and check..
--
slashdot.org
ICQ: [deleted]
AIM: [deleted]
> From: Nick Disabato [nickd@nickd.org]
> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:40:24 -0500
> To: jonkatz@slashdot.org
> Subject: V.F.T.H.
>
> I just saw on
>
> I was Nick from Chicago in the second of your three articles. I was just
> wondering if I actually got in there.
> It's okay if I'm not, but it would be pretty interesting if I was.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Nick Disabato [nickd@ticalc.org] [http://nickd.org]
> News Editor, Featured Programs, Room Service
> the ticalc.org project - http://www.ticalc.org/
-- BlueCalx | http://nickd.org/
I was in the original VFTH Katz wrote - I was Nick in the second column. I spoke of two of my friends getting into a fight. I wonder if I got in :-)
-- BlueCalx | http://nickd.org/
>Out of curiousity, from whence do you derive a "right" to own your comments?
Shouldn't you have said "the comments in question"? Oh, that's right - they are MY comments. Your lack of respect for an author's rights is clear anyway - I don't see any attributions on your stories page. Or joy, am I corresponding with the original author of the AI koans?
Then there's this line at the bottom of the page.
>All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2000 Andover.Net.
I don't give a Geo Metro about your interpretation of the law. Mine is mine. Doubtless someone with nothing better to do has already talked to a lawyer, and maybe will even do something about this book. Unfortunately it will probably involve a prig like you on both sides of the argument.
Your sarcasm indicates you're less than happy with my tone. So sorry. I guess pomposity from undergraduates brings out the worst in me.
I'm more concerned with denying use of my work (whatever merit it may or may not have) for the benefit of a "journalist", whose ends I mistrust, whose pedestrian talents I scorn, and whose presumption I resent.
My selfishness, if it is that, may be summarized as this: JonKatz may not profit from a single keypress of mine. He didn't have the courtesy to ask, and if he had I would have said no.
Knowing that the law is basically useless for small matters like this and that lawsuits only profit lawyers, if I cared enough about it I would find JonKatz and break his nose. However, realizing that this would cause a series of whining articles with his injury presented as proof of his victimized geek status, I won't. And to be honest I don't care enough about it either.
On the subject of renumeration, I don't see it as just receiving money - there's the prestige of having a book published. Worse is allowing JonKatz to assume the role of "geek" spokesman. I am so damn sick of seeing this tosser imply that he's one of us - in the process, defining "us" as somehow akin to the two nutsacks who killed lots of kids in Colorado.
As for nationality, I'm Australian. The complexities of any legal action don't bear thinking about, but it's a safe bet that the U.S. constitution doesn't apply to me.
Dear correspondent, without further prognostication kindly remove the plum from your oral orifice, to followed expeditiously by the emergence of your cranium from your anus.
The right is to not have my comments used by the wanker - I wouldn't stoop to accepting cash from him. Republics don't enter into it, me old cock.
Great. Soon we'll have standup Katz cutouts repeating "Buy my book! Buy my book!" over and over.
:)
Dear my! What are those things coming out of her nose?
Spaceballs!
I am set to "No Katz" in my prefs, but I'll be damned if he doesn't sneak through anyway, as exemplified by this piece.
I not sure what you want. No one complaining? I believe that to be one of the two points of this site. 1) Give out information, 2) have discussion on same.
- I like pudding.
This book isn't being published by me, so I'm not taking anybody's comments and publishing them. It's being published by Andover. I didn't select the postings in it. I'm actually surprised at this. Throughout this whole "saga" you've been at the forefront. Now you seem to be left out of the proverbial loop. I'm just curious why. LiNT
This book isn't being published by me, so I'm not taking anybody's comments and publishing them. It's being published by Andover. I didn't select the postings in it.
Throughout this whole "saga" you've been at the forefront. Now you seem to be left out of the proverbial loop. I'm just curious why.
LiNT
Putting aside the issues of legality when it comes to reproducing comments owned by a particular poster, doing so, without that poster's permission, is just plain rude and inconsiderate. Katz, CmdrTaco, and any others involved in the publication of this work, should be ashamed of themselves.
Adam
If even the small ones were important enough to be included, then they were important enough to have permission and credit given.
ADam
At some point though someone was going to persecute those two simply because no one goes through life without being persecuted. What were they going to do then, with no teacher or principal to protect them?
Adam
And it never occured to you that you (and Slashdot) would be getting a good amount of publicity because of this? Oh, please....
Adam
Horsehockey.
I really don't have one opinion one way or another on Columbine, other than a) I wish it didn't happen, and b) I'd like to see that it didn't happen again.
But what I abhor is the simple, solitary fact: kids, who have for years been already pretty isolated, seperated, and dis-included, were suddenly being singled-out and treated to unlawful and immoral treatment.
Columbine was tragic, possibly preventable, but certianly random and definitely isolated; post-Columbine treatement of geeks is illegal, if not organized, at least wide spread, and definitely something to rise up against.
I will not allow others to be treated as if they were less than full citizens with full rights; and for anyone to say that I should "just take it" is as amoral and offensive as I've ever found anything.
Whatever you do... don't read this.
The cat scans on sarcasta.net are pretty cool. I didn't know flatbeds had that kind of depth of picture capability. There's all sorts of cool stuff to do with that. That's a mellow cat, too.
12 moderation points were burned on that post...talk about a pissing contest. I do agree, however, that if Jon had a better writing style, the flames wouldn't be quite as high.
A lot of the actual survivors (if not a majority) are actually going away from there for the day for a private moment. They kept making comments to the effect that media was going to ruin it.
-Vel
You sound like you're from Minnesota.
>;)
-Vel
We should be concentrating on Elian!
That boy is just so cute, and this is all just a horrible tragedy!
I hereby grant everyone any and all rights to use any and all text appearing on these pages, any and all linked pages, any and all punctuation marks, smilies, icons, banner ads, GIF and JPG images, HTML tags, FAQs, Submit buttons, insightful comments, interesting comments, offtopic comments, flames, trolls, and threads for any and all public, private, for for-profit, and for-non-profit uses whatsoever. Furthermore, I relenquish all control of Slashdot and its users to Al Gore, since he is the father of the Internet.
Yet furthermore, this post hereby denies all rights of all previous posters' rights to keep their replies to themselves. All of their posts are now in the public domain and will be used accordingly.
GOD
Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
"I don't think this is the case here. When I post on Slashdot, I'm giving permission to Slashdot to publish my post on Slashdot, in the particular forum where I submitted my post to, and nowhere else. Would it be alright if I took your Slashdot articles, bound them into a book, and sold them? I don't think so. "
Actually nowhere when you post do you say that you are giving Slashdot permission to publish your post. There is a fundemental difference between an article written by someone and published by Slashdot, and a comment displayed by Slashdot. In the former Slashdot is buying rights to display the article (buying may not involve monetary exchange though.) When you post a comment you are using a facility Slashdot has made aviable to you to display your thoughts. They are in no way agreeing to any conditions other then you still own the content of it. And since it is a public discussion forum, and called a comment, someone can probably quote your entire comment from it without having to reimburse you. It could very well be legally considered to be no different then saying your views on the street for all to here.
This is the ultimate irony of this situation, and its aftermath. The media chose to incite a 'geek scare' after this event, despite the fact that it is more frequently the persecutors of those who are different who behave in a brutal manner. The killers, these two fools, were not part of some sort of underground alliance of downtrodden geeks. They were on the same level as those who do the persecution: Cold, unfeeling people who fill some void in their personal lives (or self-esteem) by beating on others. Bullies, in classic terms.
Speaking strictly from personal memories (feel free to refute this), being the quintessential geek and having the associated pariah status always led to self-deprecating feelings. I never wanted to hurt anyone else, though they certainly wanted to hurt me. But that's the past, and I feel somehow more well-rounded for having experienced it.
Frankly, trying to put general terms on people (especially those whom the terms do not fit) for the advancement of a cause is somewhat shady, to say the least.
--frood
"Futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis"
"Recta non toleranda futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis"
According to Taco and Hemos, the comments on this site are speech. If this is true, then everything said here is public domain and freely usable. Your argument that this is a private site holds no water. Whether you converse with others outside on public property or in a country club, speech is speech. The only problem here would be in the realm of plagiarism--but I don't feel this is valid either, since a sociologist is free to quote things people say without any attribution at all. In fact, this is considered ethical, as publishing their words with attributions would be a violation of privacy. I sincerely doubt that sociologist ask permission to publish peoples' words--depending on the study, that could be suicide. Furthermore, your comments on ownership don't really work the way you say. If you shout "Fire!" in a theater, you own your words, all right--and you are fully responsible for those words too. Not only that, but there is nothing you can do to stop someone from quoting you, either. Heck, they can use you as an example without a whit of compensation too! (sound familiar?)
According to you (and a great many others, it appears), the comments on this site are written works. In this case, copyright law applies, and the written works have been stolen, stripped of their rightful authorship, and not duly compensated for. Again, whether this is run by a public or private institution is irrelevant. In this case, ownership also happens to determine control, and so republishing it is a violation of all the laws we have for IP.
Depending on which of these you believe is correct, one view or another prevails. Personally, I find the former more sustainable. I agree the things on slashdot are written, however, the things written are *speech*, not *written works*--at least in my view. Since (at the moment) I can't think of a good argument in my favor, you are certainly free to continue believing your view.
(But I really wish people would stop flaming at each other and argue the relevant points intelligently. So far, I haven't really seen a whole lot of that.)
ufdraco
It's the 'chicken-and-egg' problem. Does the media cause people to act wrong, or does people acting wrong demand that the media report their point of view?
I really don't know (and I'm drunk right now, so I wouldn't trust myself anyway...). Any insight out there?
-
__
Comment submitted. There will be a delay before you understand what you posted.
Slashdot will republish and resell your posts without asking for your permission.
But, in a manner of speaking, httpd does this every time someone clicks 'reload' (well, ok, not resell, but for ad profit), and I hope you agreed to that...
-
__
Comment submitted. There will be a delay before you understand what you posted.
As for my comments, feel free to publish them wherever you want. And if you make a million bucks from it, I don't care if I don't see one cent.
This discussion sure seems to have separated the men from the boys.
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
Poor Perspective
Everyone got screwed. The Media forced the authorities to act like nazis, forced geeks to be equated with nazis, forced us to watch it as if we were nazis, and forced parents to react like nazis, when in fact all there was was a drug overdose. And the Trenchcoat Mafia... um you mean like Team Rocket?
Besides the worst hysteria is funeral hysteria. Where people can't get away from all the emotional sensationalism to realize what's really going on around them. Sorry but I would have thought most ppl would want a private moment to remember the real victims, not the crap I see on TV. And this book shows the reality of the media we deal with on a daily basis.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
This book is your best chance at getting back at them.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Wrapster it. PDF ever heard of it? C'mon I would have thought unixers could see the evil in YAPF. We're talking text mostly and maybe some artwork. Gee text and pictures... there's a zillion formats that already support text and pictures. Unless of course you guys plan to build a distro so that different chapters go in different directories: /usr/chap1, /etc/contentstab.conf.rc. Sheesh. All that jazz just because it's a book. It's overkill. Simplify - Thoreau
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
I'm arguing no new formats, you are arguing money. It's going to be in paperback with a possible future electronic release. Please stick to the topic.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Given the number of times a post said kill your television it does get back at them quite clearly.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
When the media blew this out of proportion, schools had to react because parents were concerned. Parents were concerned because they were scared. Geeks got the brunt because it was easy and the schools had to act fast.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
And I'm not even identified in the book.
Granted they could have posted for permission on slashdot.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
What is it with this open source kills profits kick?
They could make money by including live ads in the book if they created it in HTML. 'Course I prefer ads that give me my weather as well, banner ads suck. Sign up a special on den.net.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
I think you're entirely missing the point. Jon has at no point attempted to trivialize or demonize those who were killed at Columbine.
I am not he, so I cannot guarantee his attitude, but my impression is that he feels that post Columbine schools are becoming oppressive. I happen to agree with this particular argument, but I don't see how it ties in with Columbine itself except that that was the catalyst for the current move towards oppression.
If somebody does something wrong, you punish them. You don't go out and start treating everybody even remotely like them like they did something wrong too.
It's worth noting that he is not "capitalizing on their deaths" with this book at all. The proceeds (after costs) are going to a yet to be selected charity.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
Please forgive my lack of understanding, but I am unable to comprehend your analogy between unattributed quoting and theft. It seems to me that the two are not comparable, because in the former, unlike the latter, no tangible or fungible 'thing' was taken from the poster.
I can understand a commercial author complaining about rip-offs of his work -- because he is 'losing' profits that might otherwise have been his had customers not purchased the illicit copies, and he created said work with the expectation of being able to derive profits therefrom. In this case, however, it seems to me that the posters to the Voices from the Hellmouth discussions had no expectation of monetary compensation, so their comments were pro bono. For them to notice, after the fact, that someone was able to discover a method to make money from their work, and then complain about it, seems to me to be dishonest.
I suppose the fundamental question is, then: if you create something and give it away for free because you can't think of a way to make money from it, or have no desire to do so, and then someone else comes along and does figure out how to make money from it, do you then have the right to a portion of the profits?
Perhaps this is naive, but it seems to me that the answer should be no -- our copyright laws exist not to provide automatic and ex cathedra ownership of all creative work, but to benefit the citizenry by providing inducement for authors to create. If the authors are going to create anyway, the copyright is of no use to the citizenry, and should be ignored. I fear that we have become so used to the idea of copyright that we feel that it derives from some sort of moral imperative, when as previously mentioned, its original intent was only to serve the best interests of the republic -- not necessarily those of the authors.
I am unable to comprehend the analogys being drawn by many of the discussants herein between unattributed quoting and theft. It seems to me that the two are not logically comparable, because in the former, unlike the latter, no tangible or fungible 'thing' was taken from the poster.
I can understand a commercial author complaining about rip-offs of his work -- because he is 'losing' profits that might otherwise have been his had customers not purchased the illicit copies, and he created said work with the expectation of being able to derive profits therefrom. In this case, however, it seems to me that the posters to the "Voices from the Hellmouth" discussions had no expectation of monetary compensation, so their comments were pro bono. For them to notice, after the fact, that someone was able to discover a method to make money from their work, and then complain about it, seems to me to be dishonest.
I suppose the fundamental question is, then: if you create something and give it away for free because you can't think of a way to make money from it, or have no desire to do so, and then someone else comes along and does figure out how to make money from it, do you then have the right to a portion of the profits?
Perhaps this is naive, but it seems to me that the answer should be no -- our copyright laws exist not to provide automatic and ex cathedra ownership of all creative work, but to benefit the citizenry by providing inducement for authors to create. If the authors are going to create anyway, the copyright is of no use to the citizenry, and should be ignored. I fear that we have become so used to the idea of copyright that we feel that it derives from some sort of moral imperative, when as previously mentioned, its original intent was only to serve the best interests of the republic -- not necessarily those of the authors.
Since the ./ disclaimer at the bottom of each page states that "Comments are owned by the Poster."
Did Mr. Katz get reprint permission?
-jerdenn
Personally, I think this is an issue where the authors need to walk a tightrope. When I post, it is to the Slashdot forum where I want other Slashdot readers to comment on it. I'd feel a little shocked if my post popped up on the screen during the 9 o'clock news on the TV.
However, when you say something in public you can expect your speech to become public domain. This can either be used against you in the future (re: fodder to be used against polititians) or it can be used with sensitivity and in context to highlight a cause in a public-spirited effort to do some good.
A community builds up its own web of trust, and I feel the Slashdot crew have built up a good relationship with me. I trust them to reproduce quotes from the forums with care. Unless someone buys the book and shows otherwise, I'm behind the Slashdot crew.
I also agree with the other poster that says putting the book in print will legitimise the text in the eyes of the public, and the further reach a printed version will have.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Holy c_*p. Stuff that had been modded to 5 has been 'lost'? Ok, ok, nothing is forever, let alone a semi-vaporous medium like this, but still, for posterity's sake it would be nice to keep much of this stuff around. Especially since it's so possible. Especially the 5's. Have you tried Google's caches? Another (unfortunately less reachable) cache of information are the personal saved files of individuals. I occasionally save pages for my own future reference, and it includes a pair of hellmouth snippets ( Dec 15th ones... ).
Exactly, comments are owned by the poster. This does not mean you own the bits which are encrypted in the /. machines, or even the words. It does mean that you are solely responsible for anything you say and that /. will deny any liability for you or other posters dumping inane nonsense to the board. Not so hard, was it.
They are in no way agreeing to any conditions other then you still own the content of it. If I still own the content of it, then my permission is required before it can be republished.
You no longer "own" your words, you own the content. In other words you're solely responsible for the content. The dislaimer isn't entirely clear. You implicitly give permission, it doesn't matter if you're aware of it or sign or click or take a shit, your comments can be re-published as is.
Now, quit being a candy-ass and shut up about it already.
I'm no big fan of Katz either... but it doesn't kill me to see an article posted about him on /.
Next time just forget about it and move on... you'll kill yourself with stress if you allow that to get to you!
-rt-
-rt-
** Evil Canadians are taking over the world. Learn about the conspiracy
This is rediculous.. why are you people whining about being quoted in a book? Who really gives a shit? And if it's too expensive, don't buy it! jeez.. People will just take any god damn excuse they can find to whine... I started reading comments in this article hoping to read something insightful about the book, or something at least interesting.. not this pointless Hemos/Katz bashing bullshit. Some of you people need to grow up and stop whining.
-palp
You know, its really quite disturbing to watch the endless amounts of whining about Jon Katz
None of your typed whining and bitching and moaning is going to stop you from having to see the articles. If you don't like them, for god's sake, don't read them. You all aren't small children who are forced to eat your vegetables, you are adults supposedly and you are all supposed to be mature enough to NOT read something you don't like. If you don't agree with him, stop bitching and moaning about it, and just shut the fuck up, and don't read the articles. For my own opinion, its high time someone DID say something about how 'geeks' are treated. Self-promoting or not, arrogant or not, Katz has a point, and if you all could grow up and stop whining about it, you might be able to see his point. This book in published form means that I can drop a copy on my mother's desk in her classroom, and, there's a small chance that she'll finally see that those quiet kids are really getting harassed and don't deserve it. This book means that, hopefully, some skinny nerd will get listened to by a principal, and it means that somewhere, some computer geek might have a plesant time in school, where he might not have previously. Maybe you all need to remember something you hopefully were taught as kids. If you can't say something nice, don't say it at all Acting like immature children changes nothing. Being intelligent and mature does
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?3357354385
As for the 4th point - contributors being paid for thier work - do you know how much your words are worth? From my understanding of the publishing world (IANAWriter), you would be lucky to get 5 cents a word. Now imagine the time spent to send a $1 check to every person who had 20 words, the paperwork for taxes that involves, not to mention the contract nessesary for such a transaction to occur in the first place, the time spent contacting each to get their name, address, blah blah blah. It is not reasonable to do that.
:)
And anyone expecting to get rich from writing is in for a surprise. Unless your name is Steven King or something
For all the people complaining that they were not consulted and they want their money form the book - do you know that professional writers only get 2-5 cents per word? That is how much your words are worth. Now everyone that would get more hen $5 (100 words or ~ 1 medium paragraph) raise your hand. Not too many of you.
Now realise the amount of editing needed to combine a huge collection of comments and conflicting points, and often out and out errors. That is a lot of editing. I've done similar work, though on much smalelr scale, and it is still a lot of work.
If you tihnk you are that important, or your insight that valuable, shut the fsck up and write it yourself. Do NOT start condemning others for getting up and actually doing something. It is hard work putting a book together. Even harder to put one together that talks about a topic like this. So unless you have gotten off your ass and made people think about the issues personally, don't complain about people that are doing it, and doing it for charity to boot.
My more then $0.02, and Slashdot can use these comments whereever they want.
---
/bin/fortune | slashdotsig.sh
Hey guys... The parents of the victims at Columbine have set up a charity to build a new library... why not donate the money there? They're trying to raise $3.1 million and they're about halfway there. Their website is at http://www.hopecolumbine.org. At least *something* good will come out of Katz's writings. He needs a proofreader. -Keth let us always remember and let us never forget.
Anybody wants to take anything Iwrite, feel free to do so. I got it from somebody else to begin with.
The one thing not mentioned so far in any of the ads or in conversation here is the introduction to the book... by none other than Prof. Jenkins! One of the coolest Professor's on the planet, and the guy who testified before the Senate a little less than a year ago about goths, computer games, violence, etc... I'm psyched to read that!
I think we found Taco's girlfriend!
Marissa
I'm not really an elf, I just play one in AD&D.
Marissa
I'm not really an elf, I just play one in AD&D.
Not everyone who expresses discontent is whining. There's also something to be said for style...I can read some things I'm not terribly interested in if I enjoy the writing, and Mr. AC's unhappy snippet was well done. There are plenty of other targets...
On a completely off topic subject... How cool that you have a letter on the Dragon Magazine cd-rom. Wow, did I love that magazine :)
That we'll finally see the end of the: Perhaps you are seeking Jon Katz's series of articles related to recent events in Colorado. These articles include Voices from the Hellmouth, More Stories from the Hellmouth or The Price of Being Different. Yay! Now we can have instead: Perhaps you are seeking Anonymous Coward's series of postings related to off-topic postings on SlashDot. These postings include Trolls and their Hemos, More Trolls and Grits, or The Price of Pancakes.
"We apologize for the inconvenience."
Consider the following scenario: Microsoft decides that there is some really cool code in the Linux kernel that they want to use, so they steal that code and use it in Windows 2010.
/. react?
/. comments, then it would support the use by Microsoft of excerpts from the linux source code -- and don't even think about trying to invoke the GPL, as that merely grants additional rights, and in no way limits the fair use exemption.
How would everyone on
This is exactly the same situation. A company is taking copyrighted work (/. comments or linux source code), which was posted to a public forum (/. or the linux kernel), and taking parts (intelligent comments or useful code) for use in their own commercial product (a book or Windows 2010). If fair use supports the use of
The two situations are identical, and should be treated as such, irrespective of the identity of the persons violating the copyright.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
"Yes, people get picked on, and yes it hurts. I've been picked on plenty, and I never had a supportive roll-model to explain to me the real issues of the abuse. I've also never killed anyone or wanted to kill anyone. Whats the difference between Klebold, Harris and me? I have a conscience, while they never did."
Most of us have consciences, but that doesn't always keep us from doing wrong things. It just makes us feel guilty about it, and that makes us less likely to do it, but it doesn't stop us.
Personally, I have wished people dead. Never once acted on it, but I know how it is to hate someone. I'm a geek, and a Christian, so I basically get ridiculed by both sides. For awhile, it was too much. I feel for the victims, and for the murderers. I know what hate feels like, and it can tear a person apart inside, doing as much damage as possible to the people close to them.
Yeah, the murderers deserved to die, and they did. I'm not happy about it, though - I'd rather they were captured and helped through their problems. I don't think that Cassie Bernall, for example, was one of the cool, popular people who picked on the geeks - yet she was killed along with the rest. Nothing fair about it - but what I would blame is the public school system. They are the ones in control, and they have created a culture where the cool kids can do anything they want, and get away with it. I've got plenty of ideas for improvements, but that'd be offtopic.
One thing offtopic I will bring up... Will geeks and science fans stop fighting with christians? Please? It's sickening, the bickering on sides. Faith and science do not in any way conflict.
Science and research tells us how, religion and philosophy tells us why. Whatever the truth is, they will both approximate, over time. There is no need to bicker over apparant contradictions.
If you disagree, feel free to tell me why. I'd love to hear it.
The point here isn't money or the law, but the fact that it's clearly stated that we as the users own the comments. It had been quite easy for Hemos to post a small note on slashdot asking for comments about the project BEFORE starting to work on it. It's a matter of principle, not trademarks or making money - that's for big stupid companies to mess around with.
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --
Again - you could have posted a small note asking for comments before proceeding...that's not too hard, now is it ? I'm sure that the effort is noble and all that.
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --
Whatever. The point is : ask first, use material that isn't yours later.
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --
Looks like you being anonymous gets it in the ass a whole lot often... anklegrabber.
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --
Dude, you are way wrong with this one. If any of my comments are featured in that book of yours, then I'll definitly sue. You can't use the statement of individual ownership of every comment just to cover your own backs in case the man comes knocking on your door, you gotta respect every single comment and it's writer... or else - how can I be sure that you won't sell all my, or any others, comments in a book one of these days ? Charity - my ass. Making the slashdot.org brand stronger is what it's about. Maybe you guys should stop thinking about ca$hing in on the ./-thing and start thinking about doing something else instead of slashdot... this is getting tiresome.
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --
Yeah, HS sucked big for geeks, but, like, fuck...I didn't go out and unload a gun on my classmates or anything. Those two kids were nuts. I worry that Katz' book is going to imply that ALL geeks == psychos, and thus reinforce the backlash against kids wearing KMFDM T-shirts and such.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Be sure the Grits for Natalie Portman Foundation is included, since thats what all the katz trolls love best!
"Somewhere in the world, right now, there is at least one Natalie Portman without adequate grits in her pants"
Hear Hear!
I second the motion.
All in favor, say "aye".
-----
Vikhozhu odin ya na darogu;
Skvoz' tuman kremnisti put' blectit;
Noch' tikha. Pystinya vnemlet bogu,
Rhapsody in Numbers
Any chance this will be available as an E-Book? For us geeks, of course...
El Karma: excelente(principalmente la suma de moderación hecha a los comentarios de los usuarios)
Why is this relevant? People keep looking for a single cause to Collumbine. There isn't any. All of the following played a role:
The easy availability of firearms to irresponsible people
The hands-off approach to parenting
The fact that one of them went off of his psychoactive medication
The amazingly violent culture we live in
The ostracism a lot of kids experience in school
etc.
These events are a prime example of multicausality. If these kids had had no access to weaponry, or if their parents had cared enough to ask about the gun sticking out of the bag, or if they hadn't been picked on at school, this event wouldn't have happened. (not that the overactive news media helped, either)
It's thinking like this that makes me want to leave the country.
The above comment is CopyWrong (K) Erisian Entertainment. All Rights Reversed. Ewige Blumenkraft!
When people who voted on this poll read about that story, they'll probably think "we need stricter knife control laws to prevent this from happening!"
I think the fact that a student would want to stab/shoot/blow up other students is a much, much more important issue than their capability to do so. I guess I'm weird that way.
It's refreshing to see that, a full year after the atrocity at Columbine, and many months after the truth of the killers has been exposed (hit up Salon if you're still clueless), Mr. Katz is still more than willing to exploit geek sensabilities. What is the "price of being different"? Not a whole lot. With more and more inane articles every day about how 'geeks are taking over the world,' this sort of fear-mongering is entirely out of place. While I feel for those for whom school is more terrifying than merely boring, I also feel for them because they fall prey to this sort of blatant sensationalism. A moment of silence, please, for the kids who died at Columbine High School.
Those cat-scans on "the girlfriend"s site seem to be coming from CliffyB's cat-scan page. Hardly very original :) Imzadi
Maybe not tacky, but definitely in bad taste. Especially since the book isn't even available, and all the details aren't hammered out. This is as lame an announcement as when game companies release stuff like...oh...THIS, maybe? The game's not even out, they've already had an initial announcement about the game it's just a "Yoo hoo! Over here! We're still alive!" message. That's pretty much what this is. An attempt to cash in on media attention for the book by tagentially attaching itself to it. No I don't know if this is to boost book sales or whatever, because it's not like Katz is getting cash from this. Still, I don't think Mom & Pop America are going to take more than a glance at a book called "Voices from the Hellmouth". Also, considering the amount of hate Katz seems to have incurred here, this isn't going to be on the wish list of any techie who's heard about it. But, I know what you mean about the stupid reporters going and asking the STUPIDEST possible questions just to have a reason to be out there. Can't you news people jsut run a footnote story that says, "Today was the anniversary of the Columbine tragedy?" No...you've got to go and send reporters there...to be there live, to ask stupid questions like, "If you had to pick the person most likely to repeat this tragedy, which student would it be?" I also hate when they interview entirely unrelated people, like, the guy's neighbor or his 5th grade teacher. They always ask, "Did you see this coming?" or "Did you suspect something like this from your neighbor?" (Yeah, he used to walk by and say, "Hi! I murdered 2 people today, don't worry, though, I don't kill people on MY block.") It's just as bad with sports reporters. They ask stuff like, "So what's your game plan tonight?" (Uh...we plan to score more points than the other team, and stop them from scoring.) and "Did Shaq's 61 points hurt you guys tonight?" (Nope, they felt good! We loved every one of them, hell, we wanted him to score 100 on us!) The media needs to stop being so full of itself. And Andover.net's down 13/16 riding the news of the Jon Katz announcement.
Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
If the study was brought about because of a friend's death, wasn't the issue there. The study ITSELF was a good idea. Making a press release on the day my friend's death occured, a day I would have reserved for mourning would make it extremely tacky. It would totally fell like some was trying to make money off of the death of my friend, no matter how much good the study could do. Save the releases for another, less painful day.
Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
Granted, I haven't read the book...but this is supposed to be a day of silence and regret. Talk of preventing this from happening again, and trying to empathize with the shooters so this didn't happen in the first place only pours salt in the wounds. It's like going up to the parents of a friend of your who died in a car accident one year ago, and giving them a study that says if he would have had a car with an airbag, he'd still be alive. This is one day that the Columbine people deserve to have to themselves, to grieve in their own quiet ways. If this book reads the same way the columns and posts read, this is in bad taste. You should have waited for a less poignant time...maybe tomorrow, or yesterday. Today wasn't the day for it.
Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
New Ask Slashdot:
What does CmdrTaco's girlfriend look like?
Sheesh, J! I never realized you were that big! How's life after Alliance going? :-)
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
Welcome to the media infatuation. Try going to something like defcon and feeling normal. I always see the reporters running around and think of "The Crocodile Hunter" (that wacky australian on the discovery channel). They might as well be saying "Observe the Geek in the wild, watch as he attempts to mate. Now I'm going to stick my thumb up his buttocks without pissing him off" Basically, we're getting all that damn press that Gen Xers got last decade, I just can't wait until they companies start exploiting once sacred things (even more so than now).
sqweak
"They have computers and other weapons of mass destruction" -US Attorney General Janet Reno
Every time I see an article from Jon Katz, I am filled with resentment. I feel like we, the so-called geek community (I am even ashamed to call it that) are placed behind glass and shown off to the rest of the world by him. Like a zoo, with Katz as the zoo tour guide.
Do you feel like a monkey, well as much squaking and squallering that has been going on about this, maybe some of us ought to? What ever Mr. Katz's roll is in this he has the ability to use his influence to shed some light on the topic, including how the "geeks" feel about it. Well now it's showtime, now we can swing on our little branches and hope that our random shrieks can be heard and if heard, understood. Another option would be to use this to our advantage, the phrase "steal the spotlight" didn't come from two bit crooks, MPAA aside. Now wouldn't be beneficial if we stood up, walked erect and became something more than idle entertainment for the masses, if that's what you feel we are. Again, do you feel like a monkey?
Now I seriously resent this type of attitude displayed in the previous post. Come on, do geeks need to jump on the "victim" bandwagon too? I have been following the events since Littleton, when the "witch hunt" began to find out why our beautiful and sparkly clean nation's kids were all of the sudden shooting each other? At that point it wasn't news, was it just the sub-urbanites trying to be hip and pick up on what the inner city kids have been doing for the last few years? Blah, no, there's always a reason, but this wasn't by far something new.
So let's blame the media, the music, the video games, TV, movies... need I go on? I feel I do. I was one of these kids when I was in High School; I certainly wouldn't have classified myself as a geek those years ago. I listened to the questionable music, I wasn't part of the "in" crowd. So I identify with these kids. I personally represented the musical outfit KMFDM previous to the Littleton shootings, I still represent them as MDFMK. When I noticed that they were being attacked for how one of those children had interpeted lyrics from one of their songs and had displayed them on the web for all to see, I was outraged on a whole social level, parents don't let the media raise your children, teach your children to raise the media.
KMFDM had even spoke out about this on their offical home page. Even before that, if you anyone had cared to dig to find out how KMFDM had felt about such social issues as these.
A person with a problem,I believe there is no such thing,
as a person with a problem.
If there is a problem,
it's a problem with the system.
The system of home and family,
of school and community.
KMFDM "The Problem" - 1993
Now musicians all over are up in arms about this, In the last 3 months I've purchased more music that has been inspired by the Littleton and Colombine incidents. So just to restate, take example from the musicians, turn the light on yourself and say something, don't just chatter like a monkey.
There's a tendency today to absolve individuals from moral responsibility and treat them as victims of social circumstance. You buy that, you pay with your soul. It's not men who limit women, it's not straights who limit gays, it's not whites who limit blacks. What limits people is lack of character. What limits people is that they don't have the nerve or imagination to star in their own fucking movie, let alone direct it.
-- Bernard Mickey Wrangle
Moderating to further my personal world domination agenda... and to get chicks.
I still believe, though, that, unless they thought their own lives were in danger, what they went through doesn't even BEGIN to mitigate murdering 15 people.
If they were victims of anything, it was their own mental illnesses. With all of the hostility they carried around, there was no way they could have been mentally healthy.
--
Bullshit. They stopped being victims with the first person they gunned down.
Please don't color those two as martyrs. That is a very dangerous attitude.
2. Since the origional source is from /., I think /. should get to decide where some of the profits go [I say EFF]
Simple...Slashdot Poll!!! Have Rob, Hemos, et al, select the top 7 charities, and then let us all decide where we want the money to go. Everyone wins then.
Heh, "And the royalites go to '/. is stupid'!" HOORAY!
---
"Music is music, but anarchy is stupid." -- Eli Armen-Van Horn
Sheesh Guy, dont gimme a heart attack :p
I found that amusing myself :)
Mr. Taco sez: "(and comes complete with a cover designed by my girlfriend). "
I guess he is so ecstatic that a geek could actually get a girlfriend, he had to slyly insert that fact where he could, to brag on his fellow-geeks.
Either that, or he was trying to get brownie points by posting her link to millions.
Donut
All those fascist school policies came down the pike immediately afterward, true, but that's just one of life's crazy coincidences So what you're telling me is that all of the increased security, ID checking etc etc... is just a coincidence? I really find that hard to believe. All of the school polocies started as a direct result of the shootings and the media's portrayal therein. Yes these guys were crazy, and no these guys wern't "geeks" because I'd like to believe that all geeks have a sense of morality. As much as I disliked Jocks while I was in high school, I NEVER wished any of them severe harm. The occasional prank yes... but I've always believed that violence never solved anything. Props to Katz for getting the word out. I think the media (especially these days) could use a fresh injection of the opposite view point. Personally I think the whole high school experience is just part of life and should be left the way it is. In the end what you get out of life is what you put into it. Think of it like the conservation of mass or energy.
"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
-- Ernest Hemingway
you make a valid point... I wouldn't want to exclude any geeks from geekdom : I should have been a little less broader when I said sense of morality.
Media opinion aside, knowing how to use Frontpage does not make you a geek.
Quote from the bottom of my webpage:
This site created using EMACS... enough said.
"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
-- Ernest Hemingway
-- We should kill all the intolerant people in the world.
Jeez, if your ideas are that precious to you keep them to yourself. Quit making such a shit about it.
-- We should kill all the intolerant people in the world.
-- We should kill all the intolerant people in the world.
Oh well, I hadda try something.
A genius writes code an idiot can understand, while an idiot writes code the compiler can't understand.
This book made me change my sig. Damnit. Personally, I don't like my words being published without my knowledge or my consent. Not that I actually had any posts on any of the Hellmouth articles (I didn't), but not having control over my words really bothers me. Ya see, when I post on /., I'm posting on /., not writing copy for someone else's book.
A genius writes code an idiot can understand, while an idiot writes code the compiler can't understand.
It's pretty easy to say something like this, but could be terribly damaging to someone who makes his living writing. I don't suppose you have any proof though, do you? If you're going to accuse someone, at least have the decency to take it off of "anonymous coward."
OoO
OoO
Please do not publish outside of
"Slashdot. Where we hate intellectual property laws, but when someone takes ONE SENTENCE of our stuff, we scream bloody murder." I think the reason that people would be concerned here is that they released their views into one community, here the "geek" community... And now those comments are going mainstream. I can see how that would be kind of scary. After all in the rest of the world, I'm pretty meek w/ my comments, while I feel free on Slashdot. It's been that way since I was BBSing in High School. Maybe that old privacy thing on the internet is going now, what with Katz' book, and the email scandals in business/government... ohwell.
OoO
OoO
Please do not publish outside of
Very geeky...
kwsNI
Yes, the comments are owned by the poster, but have you copyrighted any of your Slashdot comments (and posted the copyright info in the comment)? If not, to the best of my knowledge, they're fair game.
kwsNI
I don't know the people who are wrote the book personally, so I can not comment on his intent. I would just like to point out that capitalizing on something doesn't neccesary mean money. He could be using it for fame, in order to make more money on future books. I certianly hope this is not the case, but thats no reason to ignore the possibilty. Or perhaps I've become to cynical.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
not quite sure about the hostility here Jon, as the point of my post was ultimately to support ya'll including whatever you wanted in the book.
I dunno, I figured it was a decent analogy to get across the idea of public domain. Didn't know I was sleeping with family members to do it?!?
Anyway...if I caused confusion, i'm sorry.
My basic point was this:
Slashdot/Andover already seems to have a license to publish comments that were posted on the site. As for comments in private e-mail, I dunno...not covered in the scope of what I was saying.
-fp
Who's up for a /. book of the 'Thousand favourite Jon Katz flames' ? Perhaps someone could sacrifice a decade of their lives sorting through them ?
Stephen Hawking has written another book. It's about time as well.
Just my thought but when you pushed the submit button you gave slashdot permission to publish your comment. In my opinion at that point one would lose the ownership to what they say and it became the property of Slashdot.
Besides like we talk about in my philosophy class in the CIS department. If you are really so concerned about privacy of what you say or do, then you really don't have to post a comment.
Besides what's the difference with reading your comment in a book or reading it on Slashdot. I for one can not put a name to every nickname on here and that's just like everyone being anonymous in the first place.
I'm impressed -- Hemos makes a post titled "I'm an idiot" and immediately gets moderated up to "Insightful".
--Sam L-L
Up here in Toronto the press have been making a big deal about the anniversary of the event and how much security in the schools is being beefed up etc.
If the press hadn't made a big deal of it, I'm sure this would have been a non-event. Instead we're getting news reports of violent incidents at schools all over the city.
carlos
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
I followed the link and she looks like a fish!
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
From all the whining about your stories, I can imagine you're somehow using telekinesis to FORCE people to enter and post to this article.
If you don't like reading about or by Jon, for fuck's sake DON'T click on the article. Nobody (barring Jon's projected telekinesis) is forcing you to read it, and quite frankly, it makes those who whine look like idiots.
In fact, I find this quite amusing. The Amazon thing is just something called commercial reality, as is the price. Something like this just doesn't have a huge market (unlike, say, the latest Star Wars novel) hence the price. Nothing compared to what I just paid for a book about FPGA design, and that was about the same number of pages. I'm surprised there are still /. readers who don't understand the economics of book publishing, given that we all buy expensive books. They're not overpriced, it's not like people make a fortune from books (unless they *are* the latest Star Wars novel), it's just economies of scale in reverse (er, diseconomies of a lack of scale, I guess ;)
As for the Amazon thing, well I'm not boycotting Amazon, I think Amazon are great as do most of the book's potential audience. I may not agree with their business practices but I am quite prepared to accept the Bezos argument that - once again - revolves around commercial reality rather than the principles and dogma of supposed "thinking" people. Not allowing Amazon to sell this would be like releasing a video game and not allowing Elecronics Boutique to stock it. If the book is *only* being sold through Amazon, this is probably just another sign of the restricted audience the book would have.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised it's being printed at all, but given that someone's agreed to back the project the price and seller are hardly are surprise.
Just my $0.02
Ed xxx
--
It's a
-- Danny Vermin
It's not like there was much to see there, aside from a few cat butts.
While I do think that the subject of the problem of "geek profiling" and its damage to those people needs to be addressed, i think its much more important for us to distance ourselves from this situation. Were they in to computers? yes, but were they indiciative of the online community here at slashdot? no. While alot of us faced insults and abuse in high school, none of us decided to kill anyone. What these boys did was horrible, and no amount of abuse justifies it. We need to show more how these boys were unlike the geek community, not draw parallels. It only invites the profiling that we so badly want to stop. As for the copyright stuff, I'm not going to get into it, as there are no easy answers to it. Do yourself a favor /. . change the copyright stuff, its up to interpretation, and a gray area is not a good idea to be gray legally.
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
I don't think that you can have it both ways.
Even the GPL doesn't let you avoid giving proper credit to authors. Free as in beer, anonymous linux would be an interesting distro. I bet it would be fast too, 'cause it wouldn't have the bloat of giving everything proper credit where credit is do. Smaller file size=Efficient. It would be hard to track down all the source authors to make sure that they didn't mind that they were going to be anoymous, and since it would be too hard, we just won't do it at all (to protect them from being harassed by the man like jon johansen [sorry if i cant spell names-- It would be much easier to refer to him anonymously: "the anon decss patriot."]) But THAT wouldn't be legal because source code is not the same thing as readible text -- except that we keep wanting it to be the same thing so that it is legally protected by copywrite not patent. Credit dows not equal money. And 'we did it to protect underage posters' (to protect the children-- that old familiar line) doesn't work for me
Ok, enough of my bellyaching. IMHO /. should never have said that the poster own's hir comments. period. ever./IMHO
1) most of the stuff here is about open source, GPL, free as in beer, free as in speech, etc. So why not have the tag line say that all comments are licensed under the GPL including anonymous comments (which are normally given credit as --anon)(what was that GPL equivalent for normal text?), Or add that the site constitutes a public forum, or include a choice when posting similar to 'post anonymously' called 'post public domain' (default on)
By /.'s definition of a public forum, I can grep the /. archives for troll, flame, anonymous, and jonkatz; format it a bit and sell it for profit. Just sounds a bit unethical, personally
The definition of a 'public forum' is that comments are not controlled and edited [460 U.S. 37, 45 (1983)]. I don't think moderation counts because the editing and control are done by the public, and not by the site's owner. The main posts are controlled and edited, and thus would have to be quoted.
Damn I spent too too too long as an English major, but if you quote, you have to give credit unless you are quoteing from a public forum. Everything else IS plagarism. You can use the tag name not a real name (not Sam Clemens), and you don't have to fill the book with anotations, just a list of contributors at the front or back.
And for the record, I hereby give permission to use anything I say for anything without naming me as long as you take it with a grain of salt.
And please change that line at the bottom to reflect that /. is a public forum for comments and not that the authors of comments retain their ownership. At best, it is misleading.
---
I was not a Slashdot reader at the time of the Columbine shooting, otherwise I would have posted this then. All through grade school and up through Junior High School, I was harrassed and assaulted continuously by those you were threatened by the fact that I was more intelligent than them. I decided to try fighting back, lashing out against those that attacked me with a pencil, my backpack, or my barehands -- all ineffective. I was obviously the problem, why else would I have so many incidents. I was kicked out of the public school system into a private school for "problem" kids, paid for by the school department. Starting my freshman year I was enrolled in a school that was oriented to students with learning disabilities and various behaviour problems. At first, I hated and resented the place. After a few months, I started getting aggresive towards the teachers and other students. Eventually, I calmed down and realized how much better off I was in this environment, where students were respected for both athletic and intellectual abilities. By my third year there, I was considered on of the schools best success stories. In my fourth year, I was transfered to a transitionary class at the local high school (not local for me, it was in a different school system). I was still taunted by some, but I was befriended by others. I even asked a girl to the prom. In college I've built up a reputation has someone willing to help anyone not as skilled as I am, though there are those better suited for the job than I. I once overheard to people were each in a class with me, though different classes, recommend that the other ask me when stuck on a problem. Unfortunately they were talking COBOL, which I hate. Sorry if I seem a bit long winded here, but I seldom get to tell anyone my story
I'm sorry about the lack of paragraphs, they showed up in the preview. I was using the with HTML formated enabled.
Hemos, the bottom of each discussion page says "Comments are owned by the Poster." That means (duh!) that Andover agrees that each comment is OWNED by the poster. That's what it says! Plainly stated in glowing pixels! Are you going to compensate the owners, or just take the comments and reuse them without permission from the owners? Free speech, not free beer.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
Yup, that's how it always was while I was in school. At least, until I gave up on the "cool crowd" and started hanging out with the geeks. What a great bunch of people. I've found that, as a hard-core geek, I (not even consciously) gravitate towards others who don't quite fit in with the mainstream. And I'm very happy this way!
The Daily Build
Not to sound trite, but doesn't it just make sense that Hemos was just the first to make the post? I mean, I'm probably showing some extreme lack of understanding for the illuminati-style inner workings of slashdot, but thats all I took it for. Besides, if you're not willing to see the other person's side of the argument, how much do you understand your own side?
Because in the end, that isn't what this is about. This is about freedom of expression and freedom from the tyranny of a majority. No where is it more marked and lethal than in the high school. Adolecense is the time when things are most haywire, most boggling. And then the clannishness of people, the tendence for anger and resentment. It is this that _Voices_ is about. The Profits from the book will serve its purpose continuing to provide a free and open forum for the discussion of these problems. The forum that gave rise to _Voices_ is /. I'm sure what Andover, /., and Jon Katz do with this money will be wellspent.
Ahh, the the flaming firebrand of indignance. This isn't tacky. Jon Katz, /. and the rest are commemorating the Anniversary. People are holding services, and moments of silence, and God knows what else, but are they being tacky? Jon Katz et al. are merely commemorating a different side of the issue. No better time than now.
Don't blame the proliferation of ideas for the problems of not reaching out to your peers. You want to end Columbine-type violence? End hazing style High school politics. If you shut up people about Columbine, you are doomed to repeat it. Not the other way around. People just use that "Media propogates violence" crap because people are uncomfortable with the fact that PEOPLE propogate violence.
But seriously now, is this book to be sold through normal channels, or only through thinkgeek? I think you are limiting your audience if its only the latter.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Or, you could stop reading altogether...
No - wait; how about this: download the /. code, register a domain (say, whinygeek.net) and start your own Katz-less public newsforum.
Personally, I resent all the whining about topic/offtopic posts here, as well as the rather nasty and uncalled-for attacks on the people running it. The code is free & domains are cheap - if you don't like what's here, go start your own damn site & stop WHINING about this one.
When slashdot first started they had a message, and they still have it up. "The following comments are owned by whoever posted them". This was intendid as a way to release themselves from the liability they could have if someone sued, claiming they were offended by a post. But now, without the users permission, they are putting them in a book. This is a violation of our intellectual property rights. Slashdot, you can't have it both ways. --As for the suggeustions to complainers that they should make similar perl scripts to slashdot and set up a similar service on their own server, I think it's a great idea. Not because I don't like slashdot, but because it would aid in the distribution of of information. Anyone interested in this can e-mail me at nospamyoulosers.kungfoo@linuxstart.com . I don't have the perl skills or the server to do this, but I'm willing to orginize such an effort.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
As has already been said, it's a public forum. the point is, Katz/Hemos OR ANYYONE ELSE can quote from it. That has nothing to do with who owns the posts.
Information wants to be free. GPL/BSD/Artistic License it. Open Source roolz. Its Fair Use.
/.
C/mon, guys. Give me a fscking break. This is for the good of 1) some charity who will make some much needed cash. 2) Teachers and administrators who want a clue. 3) all the young geeks who need these people to get a clue.
What happened to furthering "stuff that matters". THIS matters. More than Crusoe. More than Linux. More than RHAT or any other stock price. More than patents. People are going to get crucified for being different. The mass media spin is not being challenged from this perspective...except in NOT widely read places like
Go Jon and Hemos and Rob. I admire you stepping up and using whatever clout Andover has to voice these concerns and try to get some REAL exposure.
Tom Dutton
Reality does not happen until you analyze the dots. -Don DeLillo (Underworld)
Jeezus, first they take the GNU out of Linux and now this. Double plus ungood for we unpersons.
--streetlawyer, abusing his (bizarrely assigned) +1 bonus since two weeks ago.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
Don't you think this should be an EBook? Why paperback it? :)
Why do people pick on Mr. Katz? The economy is doing great, so we should leave him alone. Let him get back to the job of running the country, oops, writing articles. It is a private matter. Wouldn't you do the same thing in that situation? What person wouldn't lie about something like that? Katz is a good person. It is old news. We need to move on.
You go Jonny!
And what if CNN linked to your comment on slashdot? What's the difference between doing that and printing it out on paper? You're posting in a public forum that anyone in the world can view. It's also made perfectly clear that Katz didn't come up with those posts all on his own, and people's identities are kept secret.
I f^£&ed up the HTML. I didn't preview. Flame me. I'll flame myself.
Unclean, unclean.
You could say that you are the editor of a geek-centric publication. Then, as your popularity grows, maybe those bastards at Wired News will finally regret that they fired you.
(For best results, coin a hip new buzz-word or two, like "corporatism", and then steal a motif from a popular show like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That should make it a lead-pipe cinch!)
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
A lot of people have griped that their precious words might have been reprinted in this book without permission, and Hemos has adroitly pointed out, correctly, that since /. is a "public forum", all comments are fair game to be quoted in other publications. Now consider this: If you would like to publish a book called "Pointless Flames: The Red Hat vs. Debian Debate", or "The Phantom Menace Should Be On DVD", or even "Hot Grits!", all you need to do is cut-and-paste your favorite comments from this site, and reprint it with a few of your own comments. Presto! Free (as in beer) content for your next best-seller! I doubt Andover would object, but if they did, Hemos just provided your legal defense for you. Neat, huh? (This is my first contribution to /., so I have no .sig file yet... I will have to think about it for a while.)
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I believe you might be refering to the Berne Convention.
J
i think i'll go sell a best of slashdot cd now, and remove your guys names from all the headlines. don't worry, i don't need to ask your permission, your headlines and stories were posted in a public forum. thanks.
I am still shocked by the fact that the Slashdot readers could identify with 2 *killers*! It is unbelievable!
For a little different point of view, read The Misanthropic Bitch: http://bitch.shutdown.com/i_want_to_be_alone.html
Some excerpts:
"White kids today. You've got to hate them. But not everyone does. Overlooking the shooters' trite nature, sympathy for them is abundant on the Web. Former high school losers (one would have to be a loser to identity with them) are crawling out of the woodwork, and expressing their supportfor what could have been the worst school massacre in United States history"
and
"But you think "life is shit" because the athletes laugh when you paint your acne-scarred skin with blood red lipstick and black as night eyeliner?
You have fantasies about "taking them out" because their lives revolve around fingering the cheerleaders in movie theaters while you're at home reading my site?
You're jealous because they're adored by teachers for doing little more than patting each other's asses and tossing the pigskin?
Suck it up, you fucking pansies. I would have made fun of you in high school, too. The only person who might love and accept you no matter what is your mother. Life is harsh, and there are always going to be people with undeserved success and adulation."
We thought about posting something before - but frankly, it's gone so damn fast, that I haven't had a chance to think. You've got a good point though - in retrospect, I should have done that.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Everyone is anonymous. No indentifying characteristics used - that crosses privacy boundaries I'm not willing to cross.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Legally, they are posted in a public forum, so they can be quoted. They are not indentified however. Please read my other comments for more information.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
----
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Some people have commented that it is terrible for Katz to have sympathy for the Columbine killers on this anniversery - cruel and heartless.
Well, just to remind you poeple, this is NOT about the killers. It's about the over-reaction of schools in the aftermath. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Columbine incident. After the incident, schools nationwide began the guilty-until-proven-innocent practice of profiling anyone geeky as a potential threat and murderer. It is that that is the problem. Sure, the Columbine killers were not very nice people, to say the least. No, their actions cannot be excused. But to assume that anyone geeky will turn into another Columbine killer is terribly arrogant, stupid, and draconian.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
that will most likely get downed in the general noise in this thread:)
/. crew - mostly hemos it seems - had the intestinal fortitude to go ahead with this venture knowing that they would create a shitstorm of *ahem* protest in the thread. Also, I think it's pretty neat that the /. guys are branching out and making a name for themselves in a different, but related area.
.20 cal, a .45 handgun my dad had to protect his store - he was a pharmacist - and a winchester lever action - forget the cal. And I was not an exception by any means.
1. I don't read jonkatz - nothing personal Jon, I just don't like your writing style here. But I'm tempted to buy this book. Why?
2. I think it's great the the
3. As to the timing and such, well, the whole Columbine thing IS still a controversy, and people are still trying to make sense of why it happened - and will continue to happen. So, in light of that, I think that the book could contribute positively to the whole debate. At least I hope so.
Just an aside here: I went to a central hs back in the day - graduated in 1972. I can still remember the distinct cliques that existed there:
freaks - long-haired hippie types
jocks - of course
archies - kids that lived out-of-town, mostly on farms
norms - kids who hit the books and stayed clear of the rest (this group included the rather small geek contingent)
Now, these groups did not get a long, really, and I remember the cafeteria being divided by group rigidly. Not once in the 3 1/2 years I was there was there a major violent action comparable to Columbine. And I'm talking about a smallish town with lots of kids who hunted a lot in the fall - I had access to a
This is not to say that there wasn't a good deal of low-level violence - harassment, insults, humiliation, the occasional fist fight, public snubbing in the halls, etc. That's what made hs such a shitty place - that and the fact that I really had no interest in the "learning process" that was practiced there.
My point to this whole long-winded post? I still can't understand why the Columbine tragedy happened, and maybe this book will help me get closer. I mean kids today are not THAT fundamentally different from when I was in hs, are they?
BTW, I was one of the freaks - had hair "down-to-there", smoked anything that was even close to being mind-altering, wore raggedy-assed bell-bottoms, no shoes, and a cast-off national guard shirt, had a very bad attitude toward authority figures, and thought folks who took life seriously were certifiable - and said so, often.
Anywhoooo, this has been my $.25.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
Yes, two of them were criminals, but if you have read ANYTHING from that series of stories, you'd know that high school is also about kids who abuse each other, and some kids crack under the pressure, go on a rampage, etc. Being different means you get put up to a 10x dose of extra abuse and humiliation. So they too were victims.
I have copyright to programs I put under the GPL - but /so does everybody else/. Uhhh...no. Everybody else has a license to modify and distribute your programs according to the terms and conditions of the GPL. Nothing more, nothing less. You retain sole copyright unless you SPECIFICALLY state differently. How do you even think software and technology licensing work? A company /sells/ the rights to other companies. BOTH can "own" the same thing. No, the company licenses a limited subset of its rights to another entity. Look at a shrinkwrap license sometime.
While I do agree that under normal circumstances something like this would be tacky, there are some good reasons for it in this case.
1) It's not even being published yet; this is only pre-ordering. Similar, true, but this is likely to be forgotten, whereas an actual ship date would not. Pretty shrewd move on Katz's part, actually.
2) Consider: it is the anniversary. The very hysteria the book seeks to fight will likely run high today, and probably will continue for a while. We need a countering force to that.
3) Is it not possible that this is nothing but coincidence? Or even if it's not, that it might not have been Katz's decision? Don't blame him so quickly for a decision which could very well have not been his to make.
The technocrat.net comment copyright policy is that you own your comment, and you also grant us a separate and independent copyright to your comment. So you can do whatever you want with it, and so can we. We have used this to release all of our 1999 comments under the open publication license, with none of the non-free options. I could have told you that you can't reach the authors after the fact :-) . It's not even possible with free software, no less slashdot.
Bruce Perens.
..didn't prepare the book or select the comments, nor communicate any of them. He has about 5,000 posts in his e-mail folders though, from people, who have asked their comments to be distributed to media or any book or article, if it came to that. But I didn't put this book together.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
I think this is appropriate time to publish this book, for many reasons, but it wasn't my decision. I do support it though. And I totally disagree. It is not the same as the media hounding students. Columbine affected many kids adversely in American schools, and it's fitting that this book be published today.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
This has nothing to do with sources. Some posts came from e-mail, some on Threads. You do not need people's permission to excerpt from e-mail posted to public sites..CNN, USA Today, NYTimes...to take part in public discussions, as a matter of fact. But the vast majority of the posts I received were from people ASKING to have their stories relayed and published. That was sort of the point. On the law, you are wrong. The questioning of ID sources doesn't apply at all here.Since many of the posters were kids, their privacy needs to be protected...especially when you read some of the posts that appear on Threads.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
A more constructive solution: Why not donate the profits from sale of the book to the Columbine families?
spawn_of_yog_sothoth
(ahem) FAIR USE!
JonKatz isn't trying to palm off your comments as his own writing, he's quoting you. That's fair use, and has been upheld by the courts many times. I don't know where your legal advice comes from, but it seems that you should try to borrow JonKatz and Hemos' lawyer for a while; (s)he knows a hell of a lot more than yours.
As long as the comment is correctly attributed, fair use is preserved. If you posted A.C., tough shit, you don't get your name or your handle printed in the book. And to head off where your reply will probably come from, "anonymous" is a perfectly good attribution for quotations, if you truly don't know who the author is. Read a few literature/poetry/music criticisms, and see how many verses are quoted from "anonymous".
0 1 - just my two bits
Personally, Hemos, I think what the book does is Fair Use, and I for one wouldn't complain if my posts had been republished. It doesn't seem substantially different than when Jon quoted posts in his NPR interview.
But that's just speaking for me. Knowing the kind of folks that post here, I expect the Slashdot readership, and especially the quoted posters, will demand an explanation from Jon Katz and Slashdot of why they chose not to attribute and not to seek permission. That "owned by the Poster" comment at the bottom of the Slashdot implies an obligation by Slashdot to its posters. By asserting poster-ownership of comments, you're implying that Slashdot won't treat the comments as Andover property or as public domain. Yet this book seems to take the opposite attitude.
There's a contradiction here. On the one hand, Slashdot claims poster ownership of comments. On the other, Slashdot claims that they're in the public domain (because they're taken from a public forum). So which is it?
--Jim
First off, you don't know that Jon didn't get permission from those he published. It's a compilation, but it may be a selective compilation, and those selected may have given their permission. But I'd like to hear Jon and Rob say so. Otherwise, I don't see how this book can be in keeping with the copyright notice at the bottom of every slashdot page claiming that "Comments are owned by the Poster." (That's a verbatim cut-n-paste.)
2. Since the origional source is from /., I think /. should get to decide where some of the profits go [I say EFF]
Agreed. The EFF is not only deserving, but given recent attacks on electronic freedoms, probably needs the funds more than ever. I too would vote EFF.
--Jim
Personally, Hemos, I think what the book does is Fair Use,
The more I think about this position, the less I think I can support it. Fair Use is a legal issue, whereas my questions about Slashdot's behavior are of a moral nature. Forget whether some lawyer can construe their actions as legal -- I'm more concerned with whether it was right for Slashdot to do what it did. To ignore their own copyright policy, just because it wasn't convenient to follow it. That was wrong, and I think Rob and Hemos should acknowledge that.
--Jim
At some point though someone was going to persecute those two simply because no one goes through life without being persecuted. What were they going to do then, with no teacher or principal to protect them?
Call the police. Believe it or not things that are blown off during school are taken seriously out in the real world.
I couldn't count the number of girls' asses that I squeezed before 10th grade, it was stupid and childish and I shouldn't have done it, but if I did that now, I'd go to jail.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Just because you did not copyright something doesn't mean its not copyrighted. Everything I say is copyrighted, regardless of whether I put a (c) or not. I can write a book. If someone takes it and publishes it, and says "it didn't have a copyright notice on it", they'll still get raped in court. Therefore, I believe that publishing people's comments is still copyrighted by author, regardless of whether there's a claim or not.
I've seen the Salon article (a very good wrap-up, BTW) but I don't think that whether the two killers were geeks or not is the real issue. The real issue is that parents, educators, administrators, and peers of geeks nationwide used the assumption that the killers were geeks to act with prejudice towards the geeks that they knew.
The story isn't "geeks are tormented, snap, and gun down classmates", it's "people think geeks are potential killers because they are loners and like computers, video games, the color black, and/or goth music".
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Just a thought, but is Slashdot now reaping what you've sown?
Cheers,ZicoKnows@hotmail.comYou have a notice at the bottom of the page that says all comments are owned by the poster. But it doesn't preclude any retransmission of them. This isn't a book, there is no disclaimer that states 'you may not republish any part of this via any unknown media/time machine/video conferencing, etc.' Yeah, you own the comment, but you can't dictate what happens to it. By being brief, the disclaimer is rather obtuse. In this case, it can be mis-interpreted either way, and, as you can see, it is.
The proffits are going to *charity*. The content is ALL available online allready!
What reason would they have to package this in any format other than print? It's allready available and probably more complete (full comments) than the book!
Sorry, but it's just not reasonable to any degree for them to spend more time making a special PDF archive of a dippy John Katz book.
Sure Katz might not deserve a nobell prize for this one, but it's his job. Ja know, that thing that people grow up and get? ... and I doubt he'll net any proffit as he probably draws some kind of salary from Andover.
Slashdot doesn't suck because of lame columnists, it sucks because of lame posters. The posters made slashdot what it is, and we've also contributed much more to its decline than any long winded writers.
WTF are you talking about?
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
If people want to remain anonymous, they should not post in a non-anonymous fashion to a public forum.
As for 'preserving' their copyright.. they do have a copyright. The problem is, they are commenting publicly on a topic for public discussion in a public forum, and anyone is free to take public comments and re-distribute them verbatim, in whole or in part.
So John,
/. seems to revel in this view?
Have you used any of the updated information that has been leaked and released over the past year (particularly at Salon.com), that shows that rather then the knee jerk reaction everyone had that assumed these were poor picked on geeks out to kill jocks, etc... that these were just a couple of mentally troubled kids who snapped? Or is there some value in continuing to perpetuate this unfortunate and inaccurate view of the situation. Esp, in light of your audience on
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
The fact that it's non-profit is irrelevant. I can't take someone else's work and republish it, even if I don't make anything from it.
Yeah, but if you were to sue and win (fat chance) your damages would be damn near zero in this case.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Dude, you are way wrong with this one. If any of my comments are featured in that book of yours, then I'll definitly sue.
Don't flatter yourself, asshole.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
We can pay homage to the 15 (yes 15) vicims of Columbine
You misspelled 13 victims and 2 criminals...
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
I HATE JON (*&##@ KATZ. PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, MARK STORIES ABOUT HIM AS BEING BY HIM SO MY @#@#%* FILTER WORKS.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Maybe it's that this feels like weasely self-promotion. Just because nobody is keeping the profits from the book doesn't mean nobody is getting anything out of it. Slashdot, Andover, Katz and Cdr Taco's girlfriend all get good amounts of publicity from the book.
It also makes me uneasy because the people whose comments are used are not getting anything out of it either. Basically their comments were grabbed, jammed together, edited, and put in a book which someone then sold for indirect financial gains.
I know comedians get pretty pissed when someone "steals their bit" and uses it without giving them credit. Isn't this the same sort of thing?
Here on the Slashdot site itself, Andover makes money off people's comments indirectly. If an interesting story / comment gets posted people look at it and some might click on a banner ad nearby and so Andover makes money. But the poster and the general community also benefit. That post becomes part of a discussion. The poster can read people's responses and understand their advice, their suggestions, their point-of-view.
In dead tree format, the people who made that book possible get nothing out of it. Their stories are taken and given to the world. The world may benefit from it somehow, but what does the poster get?
The bottom of the page says "Comments are owned by the Poster." Does that only apply when they're being sued for what someone said? It seems like they shouldn't be able to have it both ways. Either the comments are ours and all you do is display them, or the comments are yours and you can use them as you see fit, but you have to take responsibility for everything said here.
Sorry if this rambles a bit, but I really am bothered by this. And I really don't know why. If my comments were used and they entertained, helped, or taught someone something that's great. But aren't they my comments? Shouldn't I have some say if they're going to be used? Shouldn't I have known that this was being planned?
Btw, the "preview" seems to be busted. When I previewed this comment it stripped all the tags from the text box.
Wait a second...so, if you identify the quotes, then you need to get people's permission to use them. And, of course, there'll be somebody out there that wants money or something. Blah blah blah, too much hassle. So instead you choose to just take everybody's work without their permission, by denying them attribution? How does that make it right? If I started grabbing source code off newsgroups and mailing lists (public forums, no?) and pulling out all the comments, does it make it ok for me to sell it? Doesn't that fundamentally contradict one of the most important principles that we talk about around here?
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
story. News for nerds. Whatever.
There are over 100,000 registerd slashdot users, I doubt less then 1% of those people come here regularly.
Next time, try thinking.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Check out ANY Canadian news source for the lastest news, like the Natinoal Post, here's a clip:
ORLEANS, Ont. - A 15-year-old boy who was often teased by his peers went on a stabbing rampage in an Ottawa-area high school yesterday, an attack that came on the first anniversary of the fatal school shooting in Columbine, Colo.
The story has already been submitted to Slashdot, now we wait.
Actually, I think that was a typo - he meant "we're only going to be selling this through Think Geek." Can Hemos or someone clarify that?
-- Imagine how much more advanced our technology would be if we had eight fingers per hand.
5. We tried to deal with the Amazon thing, but you can't stop them from ordering for a resaler. Once something has entered the ISBN system, anyone can order it. However, at this time, we're only selling it through Amazon. [bold added] There you have it: "we tried not to sell through Amazon but since we couldn't prevent them from ordering the book, we're only going to be selling through them". What an utter load of crap!Go ahead and mark this as flamebait, but if this attitude on the part of /. doesn't piss you off, you must be dead.
Oh, go on, check out my job.
For those who posted in a public forum, they were not consulted. We had considered tracking down people, but my inital test run of trying to track down people went so terribly, we gave up. You'd be amazed how many people change e-mail addresses in a year
... simply because a message is posted in a public forum does not make it public domain.
/. page should read: All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster up until the point they press submit, then they are public domain for anyone to publish in any other form they wish without permission or recognition of the source. The Rest © 1997-2000 Andover.Net.
I understand your problems with tracking people down and commend you for making the effort to do so, however
If it did, your copyright notice at the bottom of each
I mean, you can't have it both ways right? You can't "own" your comments yet not have any control over it right?
Slashdot. Where we hate intellectual property laws, but when someone takes ONE SENTENCE of our stuff, we scream bloody murder.
I can't speak for other posters, but I have never, ever posted something that would make me a hypocrite with regards to IP. You may or may not have noticed that there are many thousand user accounts. From one to the next, views differ. I believe that IP is useful, but that 50 years after the death of the author (in America) is far too long a period of time. I would post a complaint on an article talking about the possible extension of this time period.
I would not, however, post a comment saying "IP law sucks. Get rid of it altogether." Others would. The difference here is that realists are posting more about the potential misuse of their own property than the idealists who like to post about something that has no significant impact upon them.
------
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
I don't see any justification for linking that debate with Columbine. All those fascist school policies came down the pike immediately afterward, true, but that's just one of life's crazy coincidences.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
But as a matter of law, comments posting in public for public dissemination can be reprinted, since they were posted for public discussion. Somebody please provide a reference for this, because it's 180 degrees away from anything I've ever read on the subject. My understanding is the posting to such a forum implies permission to reproduce and quote the work in that forum, but not outside of it. Thanks. and people are not identified by e-mail or name, so their privacy is protected. Perhaps their privacy is protected (though how much expectation of privacy is there in a public forum?), but they get no credit for their work! I don't mind at all having my work (net posts, poetry, music, whatever) copied and redistributed. I want it seen by the widest possible audience. (If you're making money at copying or distributing, I'll demand a cut, but otherwise feel free.) But I absolutely demand that I be given full authorship credit for anything I write. While short quotes without full attribution may be fair use, if any lengthy part of a post of mine was reprinted somewhere without my name on it I'd be hopping mad. Lawsuit mad, even.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
You don't have to register a work, or display a copyright notice, for it to be "protected" under copyright law. Any fixed expression of a creative work is covered. However, if you value a work, displaying a copyright notice and registering with the copyright office will help in any legal dispute.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
'"Comments are owned by the Poster."'
/so does everybody else/. How do you even think software and technology licensing work? A company /sells/ the rights to other companies. BOTH can "own" the same thing. So in this case, the poster has copyright on their post, but /so does the public/. Right?
IANAL, but...
**HELLO** Did you miss the whole intellectual property controversy? It is possible for two different people to "own" the same thing. I.e., I have copyright to programs I put under the GPL - but
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I wonder how copyright/credit for the texts where handled. Obviously some people would want to remain anonymous...how then do they preserver their copyright? Sort of a stupid question, but just wondering. Maybe somebody wants to write an autobiography sometime...?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Chill out. Many comments were sent DIRECTLY to Katz...Slashdot never seeing them. I remember Katz specifically saying that if you don't want your name or content reproduced please SAY SO. So people were plenty forwarned that anything they sent DIRECTLY to Katz might actually be used.
Now, about taking comments from the public forum, I'm not sure.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Beaten to unconciousness and then had her head held underwater by a girl who bragged about it at school the day after.
Happy now?
More info on Virk here.
This is probably related to the fact that many suicidal people come to the point where they want to take the person who caused their suffering with them.
There was an excellent 60 Minutes II on this about a month ago.
Y'know, I've been reading slashdot for well over a year, and I don't think I've ever posted anything before... But this, this is upsetting.
/very tiny/ on a person person basis.
/.'s behaviour.
2. For those who posted in a public forum, they were not consulted. We had considered tracking down people, but my inital test run of trying to track down people went so terribly, we gave up. You'd be amazed how many people change e-mail addresses in a year.
This is really unnacceptable. Even Jane's Intelligence Review had a system setup for payment for those who were quoted in their publication. Surely, with slashdot funding Katz's trips to meet security guards, they can give a little money back to their community.
4. The reality, in terms, of paying people is that the book wouldn't happen at that point. The amount of time that would have added to things would have made the book impossible. Besides, the amount of actual quoting from people, once the rest is considered is
The amount of quoting is irrelevant. The fact is, people were quoted, and their words helped produce a book that is being commercially distributed. At the very least, Slashdot could have had the courtesy to mention that this was going to happen, and allow people to write in, stating that they would not want their comments used, for whatever reasons. This lack of notice, and lack of forethought is really unsettling. I expected a lot more.
5. We tried to deal with the Amazon thing, but you can't stop them from ordering for a resaler. Once something has entered the ISBN system, anyone can order it. However, at this time, we're only selling it through Amazon. As far as funds collected at this time, Katz is not taking money, I'm not taking any - we have to pay for the cost of making the book and the editor, but besides that, nada.
Somewhere between "tried to deal with the Amazon thing" and "only selling it through Amazon," I think I got lost. There are enough alternative e-bookmarkets that slashdot would not be forced to resort to Amazon. Homestly, I imagine they never cinsidered the boycott too seriously in the marketing for this book.
Actually, it doesn't seem like they took very much at all seriously, when planning this.
If I get moderated down for this, whatever. This is the first time I've actually cared enough about a topic to speak my mind on it, and I'm really rather shocked at
Jairus Pryor
Any event, once it has occurred, can be made to appear inevitable by a competent historian.
God, I hope I didn't end up in Jon's book..
I mean, he's a decent writer and all, but 'Anonymous Coward, as quoted in the Jon Katz masterpiece' is decidedly not what I want as my one historical footnote!
.sig: Now legally binding!
Since this is the basis for the rest of your argument, I'll stop you right there. Slashdot is NOT private.
Let me ask you this: did you post from a special slashdot.org network? did you post from behind some firewall slashdot runs, this making it impossible for anyone in the internet at large to post? or at least, did you have to enter some special password to access this site?
What?? Are you saying you didn't?? Pity. According to the court ruling earlier just this year on deep linking, that means Slashdot is quite public.
IOW: Your argument is utter bullshit and perhaps you should consult a lawyer before shooting off your mouth.
ufdraco
Despite your naive beliefs, this is *not* a "public forum" and everything *written* on these pages is fully protected by copyright law. The key difference between slashdot and standing on a soapbox on the street corner is that *everything* you see has been reduced to tangible form. Copyright law can't apply to nontangible speech (since human memory is fallible and nobody can be absolutely sure what was said), but anything put down in tangible form (handwriting, books,... or little magnetic fields on a small disk) is born copyrighted.
It really is a shame if this means that comments from an ongoing discussion can't be reproduced just because it occurred online and not in meatspace.
I understand that Taco and Hemos were trying to do something good, but they should have expected that people would jump all over any chance to cause a problem--you know, the "if I can't be part of the solution, then I'll be part of the problem" mentality.
It really doesn't suprise me that some of the same people that took comfort from the discussions that occurred here would be greedy little pricks (or just pricks in general) and stand in the way of others getting a chance to learn and take comfort. I suppose it's sad, but I've really come to expect this kind of thing.
I hope some of them finally realize that they're as bad or worse than the people they look down their noses at and kid themselves that they are superior. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but do yourselves a favor and look in the mirror and think about what you've said here today. It could be your first step on the road to recovery from prickdom.
numb
PS: The comments about IP and copyright issues are important and thanks to the people that wrote them. Those that would rather the book not be published should think twice.
Since Jon catches so much grief here I just want to say that I recently checked out Geeks from the local library and was really impressed. Nice writing, and the book really moved me. Took it back to the library and told the librarian "You need to order more than one copy of this, 'cause its really good and some kid's gonna steal this one."
---
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
It is ironic to me that a forum of people (seemingly the majority of /. participants) who supposedly promote open source and limits on patents would be so irate over this.
What's the difference between somebody posting a code snippet vs. a comment here? If it was a source snippet you'd assume somebody would use it if it was a response to a direct query. We've fought to get code recognized as free speech, yet now we're being stingy about letting free speech be quoted.
I can't speak for anybody else, but when I post here I do so with the assumption that I will not receive monetary compensation (or even personal recognition) for doing so. While I doubt that anything of mine is quoted in this book, I would consider it an honor, not a ripoff, if my comments were deemed worthy of publication.
I posted to these threads with the assumption I would get nothing in return, and I am thus far meeting my expectations.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
Tired of seeing his name? Would you like to avoid reading/seeing/being exposed to JonKatz? Then follow these few sinple steps, and you can be on your way to "Katz free /." [1] If you haven't already loged in, Login to Slashdot.org/users.pl to create an acount. [2] Load the main page, and along the menu on the left side look for preferances. [3] Now, along the top of the page you'll see a link called Customize Homepage. click on it. [4] Half way down the page, you'll see a series of check boxes with the heading "Exclude Stories from the Homepage". In that list, you'll see a colume labeled "Authors". Half way down the list, locate the name JonKatz and click the checkbox next to that name. [5] Scroll to the bottom of the page and look for button labeled savehome and click on it. Congradulations, by taking these few simple steps, you're on your way to making /. a better place.
___
... besides it's not like I'm going to spend 15 bucks on a paperback of marginal worth. I'd get more value out of three trips to Taco Bell. So who cares where it's sold?
As the other poster pointed out, quoting isn't the same as wholesale copying and republishing.
The fact that they even tried is admirable, considering that they have absolutly NO legal obligation to do so.
He doesn't sound like he tried very hard. He basically made a few attempts, then gave up. At the least, he should have made a good faith attempt to contact every poster whose comment appears in the book.
Or Slashdot could have posted an article, asking what the Slashdot readership thought of having their posts republished. Instead, out of the blue, CmdrTaco tells us "Guess what! We're going to publish and sell your comments! Make sure you buy a copy!"
====
Actually nowhere when you post do you say that you are giving Slashdot permission to publish your post.
The act of submitting my post to Slashdot, with the understanding that it will appear on Slashdot, is equivalent to my giving permission to Slashdot to publish my post in that particular forum. What I have not given is permission to resell my posts in a book.
There is a fundemental difference between an article written by someone and published by Slashdot, and a comment displayed by Slashdot. In the former Slashdot is buying rights to display the article (buying may not involve monetary exchange though.)
I don't see the distinction. Jon Katz's articles in particular can be seen as the starting point of the discussion, essentially, the first post in the forum.
They are in no way agreeing to any conditions other then you still own the content of it.
If I still own the content of it, then my permission is required before it can be republished.
And since it is a public discussion forum, and called a comment, someone can probably quote your entire comment from it without having to reimburse you.
You could quote my entire comment in the forum, since it is assumed that the poster understands the nature of a forum. You could quote parts of my comment and resell it in a book. That's fair use. But you could not reproduce the entire content of my comment and resell it in a book.
e.g. Consider a book of publicly given speeches or lectures. No sane publisher would try to publish this without first obtaining permission from the speakers. Even if it were legal (I doubt so; the speaker could probably sue and win), it would be highly immoral.
Another example Technocrat.net states clearly on its posting forms that "By submitting this message, you grant TECHNOCRAT.NET and its owners a separate and independent copyright to your posting, and you retain your own copyright. Thus, we can do whatever we want with your posting, and so can you." Slashdot does not have such a statement on its comment posting form; I do not give similar permission when I write a comment on Slashdot.
====
The joke answer will be "Hemos". And Hemos will keep everything.
====
I looked at the link you posted but I cannot find anything related to the present discussion. Perhaps you can be more specific and quote the relevant portion here?
Certainly limited quotation is fair use, but I don't see anything specifically relating to public forums there.
====
We thought about posting something before - but frankly, it's gone so damn fast
/.? Especially on an issue as important as this (unless you think respecting your readers isn't important)?
Frankly I find that difficult to believe. Slashdot posts tens of articles a day (many of them inane), but there wasn't time in the 2 months you've been working on this to post a simple article to
I don't want to disparage your efforts, or indulge in conspiracy theories, but I think there's something seriously wrong with the way this affair has been handled.
====
Some questions:
For those who posted in a public forum, they were not consulted. We had considered tracking down people, but my inital test run of trying to track down people went so terribly, we gave up. You'd be amazed how many people change e-mail addresses in a year.
This sounds like blatant copyright infringement. Slashdot clearly says that "Comments are owned by the poster". If you couldn't contact the author, then maybe the comment shouldn't have been included in the book.
The amount of time that would have added to things would have made the book impossible.
So you don't ask the author for permission, and you don't pay them, simply because it's inconvenient? Don't mind me, but that sounds like a very convenient excuse.
As far as funds collected at this time, Katz is not taking money, I'm not taking any - we have to pay for the cost of making the book and the editor, but besides that, nada.
At $15 a copy, much higher than the cost of a regular paperback, you say that none of you are making any money?
====
Slashdot. Where we hate intellectual property laws, but when someone takes ONE SENTENCE of our stuff, we scream bloody murder.
I can't speak for other Slashdotters, but personally, I'm a strong supporter of the principle of (although not necessarily the implementation of) intellectual property.
Limited quoting is fine. Wholesale reproduction without permission is not.
====
I was this close to wearing my black trenchcoat today just to piss people off, but it's too warm. Maybe next year.
-Legion
I think this just goes to show you that schools should pay a LOT more attention to teasing/abuse and make moves to prevent it rather than report the kid as dangerous. Big brother programs within schools would probably be very effective at helping this problem. Partner the teased kid up with an older, sensible and most importantly popular/big kid to deflect flac and help the misfit regain self esteem.
Isolation is the problem!
no sig.
To quote someone, you have to cite them. To quote someone and make them "not identifiable" which is what Hemos said, you aren't quoted, but rather your Intellectual Property stolen. They could quote you by name, Handle, whatever, but they can't invent names to quote people... to do that they would IMO, need a release signed....
IANAL, but I think that fair use to use someone's work for profit DEFINITELY requires them to give credit to the copyright owner... and everything is automatically copyrighted...
Alex
The fact that they were cold-blooded mass murderers sort of trumps their "victim" status, I'm afraid. NOTHING excuses their crime.
There are way too many victims in American schools these days
I'm sorry, but I absolutely cannot abide this "we're all victims" pap. Add a victim menality to moral relativism, stir, bake in high school with 1500 students for 4 years and -- Presto! -- instant criminal.
And ya know what? Things haven't changed for millenia. Geeks vs. Jocks. Bloods vs. Crips. Greasers vs. Socs. Sharks vs. Jets. Allies vs. Axis. Protestant vs. Catholic. Jew vs. Samaritan. Human nature really has not changed, and likely will not. If you learn nothing else from history, learn that.
JimD
This is Flamebait?!
So what if jonkatz isn't a geek like you? Here he's actually done something that may just prevent another Columbine from happening, may improve the lives of millions of geeks everywhere, and MIGHT JUST ALLOW SOME OF THOSE SUBURBAN NON-GEEKS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON, and you all are bitching?
He stole my comment! If you only commented to hear yourself talk, or to make money from it, then sure, say this. But your precious "stolen" comment is being used to help fight the oppression that geeks are living (and dying) every day. You have a problem with this?
JonKatz doesn't understand us! He isn't one of us! He's definitely not, but don't think he doesn't understand. Not being a geek, I doubt he'll fully understand what it's like, but he got the important parts: nobody deserves to be harassed, insulted, spit on, kicked, beaten, or driven to suicide or even to murder, and everybody deserves the opportunity to live up to their full potential, whether that be assistant drive-through manager at McDonald's, or leader of a revolution. It pains me to think of how many de Icaza's and Torvalds's are out there in high schools right now thinking about killing themselves, and actually doing it, because people in general don't understand. JonKatz has an ability to make the general population understand, and that's what the geeks dealing with harassment and violence in school need.
You know, I never thought I would end up defending JonKatz, but I'm sick of people flaming him because he doesn't get it. That's not the point. He gets enough to make the regular people see what's going on, and that's why he's important. Maybe we don't need to listen to him, but the rest of the world could only benefit by listening to him, and we would reap the benefits of their hopefully being able to come to terms and accept us for what we are.
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
It would seem that the issue of comment ownership/licensing will be a big issue for some.
My thoughts:
It would seem as though all comments have been licensed to slashdot already by nature of the fact that they were posted. Slashdot is a public forum, so posting your comments here is like posting them on a telephone pole, or a bullitin board. As well, slashdot seems to own the bullitin board. While this doesn't give them ownership of the post, it would seem to give them license to distribute it. If, as some are asserting, they must get permission, then I too must get permission to print out slashdot pages. They would also have to get permission to display these comments because they are allowed to dislplay them on the web.
The issue of ownership, however, would seem to be one of liability. If I were to post "I'm gonna kill tomorrow at 10:00pm" I'm liable for that comment; slashdot isn't. Now, if I were to try and compile everyone's comments, it may be a different story.
Anyway...who cares...having your comments in this book is the biggest karma boost I can imagine.
-fp
P.S. I don't claim to be an expert, so flames about how stupid I am won't be of much use...my way makes more sense, whether it's the law or not.
...that Taco has a girlfriend. ;)
BlackNova Traders
'cause I've seen pictures of Malda... and he ain't... ;)
BlackNova Traders
Get a grip, guys. if your comments were worth anything, people would be willing to pay subscription rates to read Slashdot.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
I wish I had a rock to throw at every person who has said "Information wants to be free."
"Assume the worst about people, and you'll generally be correct"
When one looks at the shootings that have saturated the air over the last year or so, there is a common thread. In all of these cases, various political groups, promoting various agendas, have blamed Bill Clinton, the NRA, video games, violent movies, "goth" kids, the Internet, public education, Republicans that cut public education funding, bad parents, apathetic parents, student social cliques, or whatever promotes their agenda best. In nearly every case, the killers were mentally unstable children who often needed to rely on powerful medication to even function in society.
While Katz's "Hellmouth" stories occationally fell into the trap of scapegoating the bullies and cheerleaders of America, I really hope his insights are read by thoughtful people, even those of us who disagree with his conclusions. I completely reject the notion that these killer kids are misfits lashing out at a cruel system, but the conversation that Katz has started has called attention to how dreadful the lives of teens in America has become.
The baby boomers, for all their nostalgia of rejecting the "older generation", must at least recognize that they were raised by adults that doted on them. In the early 60's, all of American cutlure was shaped around teenaged whims. Mass media followed them through college and onward. For decades, the childred on the Baby Boom have been the center of society.
As a Gen X'er, I was lucky enough to coast in the wake of the boom. We were never the center of attention and people did not take us very seriously (Boomers stopped saying "Don't trust anybody over 30" at the exact moment you would expect), but society was not really hostile to us, for the most part we were ignored. The term "latch-key kids" became common in those days for a reason. For us geeks, escape from teen angst was very easy. We could hack code in our basement all night and nobody bothered us.
However, I must admit that I fear for the so-called "Generation Y". The reason why so many of us find shows like South Park to be so disturbinly funny is that the nasty humor often veils an even nastier truth that we are a little uncomfortable admitting. Kids today are unwelcome guests in a world that revolves around the desires of graying, self-centered adults. The "Hellmouth" stories call attention to this trend in a way that few other publications have. There are plenty of reason to pick on Katz, but this book merits at least that much credit.
Just to remove all doubt, I hereby give Slashdot, Mr. Katz, Andover, and anybody else the right to use this post any way they see fit.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
IMDUM
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Anyone can do it. That's the nature of publishing comments into a public forum - legally, you are responsible for what you say, but people can pull them.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Sorry Jon, but all the stories I posted in those forums were fake. I had a totally normal High School life. Maybe I was just trying to fit in with the real geeks here (like you), or maybe I was trying to surf the wave of feedback, and add to it, just to magnify the collecive grief.
Or maybe I was just messing with you.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I think it's very appropriate to remember the kids who were killed at Columbine..and you will see them remembered in every newspaper, magazine and TV show in America all week. But the killers were victims of a different sort, as are the many kids for whom school is a nightmarish experience. They include some geeks and goths but are by no means limited to them. There are way too many victims in American schools these days, certainly including the kids killed at Columbine. They would be foremost among them.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
No, the book couldn't possibly include all of the posts. There were thousands posted to Slashdot, many thousands more posted to me over the year. Many are not in the archives, and I lost two computers which crashed during the volume of e-mail. There could only be a fraction chosen..
P.S. I don't use any moderating system. I consider it self-censorship.
jonkatz@slashdot.org
The fact is this, no matter how warped these two were, no matter how many innocent people were hurt by these lunatics this will always be true, if schools didn't sit back and do nothing while certain kids were RELENTLESSLY persecuted by other kids and school faculty this wouldn't have happened.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I'm also doubtful of how tasteful it is to bring the book out on the anniversary...but on the other hand, if the book could do some good in getting the nonsensical "Zero Tolerance" policies of the world lifted, then perhaps it's a good thing that it gets wider publicity. Here's a good page discussing the problem.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
> It is legitimate law-abiding gun owners who have been harmed the most by Columbine.
How?
Have their guns been taken away? No.
Have they had to register guns that weren't registered? No.
Have they been banned from buying more guns? No.
Have any legitimate law-abiding gun owners been arrested and prosecuted? If so, please tell me the name & place.
"It was me against the world, I was sure that I'd win.... but the world fought back, punished me for my sins" - Social D
We had considered tracking down people, but my inital test run of trying to track down people went so terribly, we gave up. You'd be amazed how many people change e-mail addresses in a year.
/. the message shows up at the top of the first page.
;)
In case something like this ever comes up again, you might want to consider adding a new feature to slashdot. Instead of tracking people down by email, why not track them down using their user id? Write a "sysop message" facility; if you send a message to them, the next time they login to
I'd offer to help by I hate perl
I agree with you that geeks are exploited. Not just by JonKatz and his more egregious colleagues, but by the larger part of society. We're in demand to businesses and others for our domain over modern technology, without which they would be less wealthy and/or nowadays, less intellectual-chic. At the same time, we're constantly disposed of outside of the business world, treated as sub-human and unworthy. Maybe this is why some geeks sleep in their cubes -- at work, they're valuable, at the nightclub, they're trash. YMMV of course, but those whose mileage does vary aren't in the majority, and aren't the somehow the better among us for it.
But I tell ya, feeling exploited as you and I do, I can't help holding onto some feelings of disdain and even a little emotional distress over being treated this way. Every time I read a tech news story full of nonsense, mis-statements, doble talk, and derisions of the "deviant" dig-enerates of the world, I get pretty heated. I could read some other news outlet and pretend that those news outlets "don't matter", but I'd only be kidding myself. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the Boston Herald article about the Geek Pride Festival early this month.)
So if JonKatz is going to publish a book decrying the mistreatment, ostracization, segregation, and prejudice brooding against geeks, nerds, freaks, and anyone who shows up to school wearing a black trenchcoat, I'm absolutely thrilled. And if Andover.Net wants to put out a press release about it, that makes me even happier, because I know more people will hear about this book -- not just the relatively tiny sub-set of the population that visits Slashdot. Seeing as you yourself can become so vocal when you feel exploited, I would think you would appreciate it, too.
If you don't like being understood by others, even just a little bit more, I can't help you, 'cause I definitely don't feel that way.
I gotta say, a little geek pride is a damn good thing to have. (To Tim McE.: Thanks.)
--
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
Before the blood even dried at Columbine, Jon Katz has been trying to tell us that the real victims were the geeks, goths, oddballs, etc. who had to undergo a little bit of extra hassling by school administrators. No, Jon: the real victims were the ones who died there a year ago today, who were robbed of their lives by 2 madmen (not just geeks "acting out" against their "oppressers"). 364 days a year, feel free to capitalize on their deaths however you see fit. But not today, not on the anniversary of that tragedy. Today, we should remember the victims.
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
Despite your naive beliefs, this is *not* a "public forum" and everything *written* on these pages is fully protected by copyright law. The key difference between slashdot and standing on a soapbox on the street corner is that *everything* you see has been reduced to tangible form. Copyright law can't apply to nontangible speech (since human memory is fallible and nobody can be absolutely sure what was said), but anything put down in tangible form (handwriting, books,... or little magnetic fields on a small disk) is born copyrighted.
A bit more broadly, it sounds like you're under the mistaken belief that the "public domain" is a vague catchall that everything we write falls into unless we explicitly declare our IP rights. That was arguably true many years ago, but part of the Bonn Convention(?) is that all works are born copyrighted and must be explicitly placed into the public domain (if desired, prior to the automatic conversion well after death). The only difference an explicit registration of the material makes is in the damages that can be rewarded if the IP rights are abused - without formal registration the owner can only sue to stop further publication. With registration, he can sue for puntative damages.
Finally, from what I understand about the book, it seems likely that all of the quotes are protected by the "fair use" clause of copyright law. They would have only required permission to quote articles in full.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
The real story of Columbine, at least from the slashdot point of view, has never been the killers or why they did their horrific deeds. In the end, as much as people dread to hear it, I don't think there was any reason behind their acts; I think they were just nuts, and there isn't a whole lot you can learn from a nutcase. No, the real story of Columbine is what came after; it's all the hysteria from baby-boomers who don't understand their progeny, and who fear them accordingly. The victims Katz speaks of were not Klebold and Harris; they were all the kids who got harassed, suspended from school, or worse in the aftermath of Columbine for the arch-crime of nonconformity. Those kids deserve an advocate, and that's what Katz is trying to be.
-rpl
"The real tragedy of Columbine is that it was entirely avoidable and some of the victims must share a little responsibility for what happend to them (though, to be clear, not as much as the two killers - NOBODY deserves the the treatment they got but NOBODY deserves to die because of it)."
Perhaps I'm more vitriolic than the rest but my opinion can be summed up by the Malcom X quote:
"The chickens have come home to roost. Being an old farm boy myself, chickens coming home to roost never did make me sad; they've always made me glad."
You reap what you sow.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Sometime I don't understand you people. You freely post your comments to a public forum. Then someone comes along and tries to assemble the jist of the discussion in an easily comprehendible book and you run around screaming willy-nilly? CmdrTaco and Jon already explained that _no one_ was going to be making money on this. All profits will be going to charity. Yet a year after the fact you think your comments are suddenly worth something and wish to be compensated. Get a life. If you were that protective over your comments you shouldn't have posted them in the first place. On an off note, I think it would be nice to give the charity money to an organization that in some way relates to the topic at hand. LiNT
Now those are exploitive. I guess the main determinant would be the presence or non-presence of an agenda. One thousand "I was [kicked | beaten | shut out] stories don't make an agenda, however.
;)
.sigs, The computer network is the most important invention since the printing press, but they are most powerful when combined.
I was wondering when these stories were going to be printed. I hope there wasn't much editing of individual comments, and that moderation totals and a url to the archived stories were included. I'll also be mildly dissapointed if grits are not included.
A few miscellaneous notes:
-- Andover's PR release (and the book) will keep the anti-intelligence issues on the radar screen.
It is always fun to show craniorectalists where their heads are. This, at risk of seeing more of those same masses in this forum.
-- As far as being "behind a glass window", that's a little better than being in a black box, but only a little.
-- I hope Jon's not "trying to make a difference," because it probably won't, although it will probably turn out better than that trip to Charlotte (except for the sweet tea, that's always a good thing).
-- What the hell is the deal with all the copy-patent-wannabe arguments? Sounds like egos going bump in the night.
-- By providing some of our opinions in a form accessible by the non-internet community, Slashdot provides an antidote to the designation of of Slashdot as some 'net version of Los (Mos?) Isley, by the conventional media outlets.
And, in case you filter out
I see nothing in there that supports Slashdot. In fact, it even says this about anthologies:
,and without requiring any unqualified transfer of rights to the owner of the collective work. This is coupled with a presumption that, unless there has been an express transfer of more, the owner of the collective work acquires, 'only the privilege of reproducing and distributing the contribution as part of that particular collective work, any revision of that collective work, and any later collective work in the same series.
The second sentence of section 201(c), in conjunction with the provisions of section 404 dealing with copyright notice, will preserve the author's copyright in a contribution even if the contribution does not bear a separate notice in the author's name
...
Under the language of this clause a publishing company could reprint a contribution from one issue in a later issue of its magazine, and could reprint an article from a 1980 edition of an encyclopedia in a 1990 revision of it; the publisher could not revise the contribution itself or include it in a new anthology or an entirely different magazine or other collective work.
====
I have a few questions and thoughts, if you will will bare with me...
...
/., I think /. should get to decide where some of the profits go [I say EFF]
1. Can he just take our comments and publish them? Doesn't he have to give credit or get permission from the writers of the origional comments? I mean even if he para-phrases them, he still have to
2. Since the origional source is from
3. Is it gonna be summerized or is anything gonna be cut?
-- Note: These Comments are Generated by ME! Not You! ME!
Shame on the squabblers who are more interested in discussing the copyright of their idle scribbling; there is a serious issue here, and that it ameliorating the hellmouth.
Two suggestions:
*sigh*
Yeah, I'm that guy.
We're trying to avoid Amazon - it's only through ThinkGeek. My fault - and I'm sorry for the confusion that I may have caused.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Slashdot. Where we hate intellectual property laws, but when someone takes ONE SENTENCE of our stuff, we scream bloody murder.
The misguided millions who understand little about computers, gaming, networking, and other intellectual persuits, and who consider it a breeding ground for pathological criminals are the one's in need of enlightenment - hopefully they can turn off the sleeze-TV long enough to even read.
As a kid I used to stay in the library to dodge bullies, jocks and other wild animals - they didn't fit in there.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
That's true about the Columbine killers, but the fact that they were origionaly painted as 'geeks' caused a national 'scare' or sorts and led to the presecution of profiling of anyone who matched the defination of 'geek'
So even though Harris and Klebold were not in that group you speak of, that group has taken a lot of abuse because of the precieved connection.
Finkployd
uh-huh. What are you going to sue for? Not Getting A Piece Of The Action?
I suggest you and all your pointy headed allies take a look at http://www.etext.org/Politics/Conspiracy/AJTeel/U
HOUSE REPORT NO. 94-1476
for more information. You can, of course, start looking elsewhere (online, even) to see what actual rights you have, rather than relying on your weak "Wah, wah, I've been victimized and I have no coping skills and despite the fact that I don't know the law from the flaming baby Jesus I'm going to sue" logic.
This comment may NOT be published or otherwise redistributed except as part of the Slashdot web page. This comment is NOT released to the public domain and is copyrighted by the poster.
"Comments were used. They were posted in a public forum, which means that anyone can quote from them - but we've removed any sort of identifying marks, to protect people. This was down to impress upon those reading the gravity of the situation."
Although I must confess that the last sentence of the above quote seems incoherent to me, it seems that Jon Katz's understanding of fair use law is flawed and incomplete. Asserting that the publishing of a copyrighted work into a public forum nullifies the right of the copyright owner to restrict distribution and benefit from the publishing of the work is utterly ludicrious and goes against centries of precedent for the reasons that I will summarize briefly. I don't have the inclination or time to put together a detailed point by point rebuttal of the arguments put forward by Katz and Hemos (given their faulty interpretation of copyright law, my comment could be reused in a context different than that which permission for use is granted), but what I say should be materially accurate. Now, I must preface my comment with the note that the information presented here is only general information. If you want true legal advice, you must obtain this from an attorney-client relationship with a specific understanding of all the facts in a particular situation. This information should not be relied on as a substitute for obtaining legal advice.
First, some definitions
"Willful infringement":the party distributing copyrighted material was aware of infringment and went on despite this
"Good faith fair use defense": Ignorance of the law is not normally exculpatory, however, demonstrating that one reasonably believed that what one did was fair use may be cause for a court to refuse to award damages.
What is considered to be copyrighted?: The presence or absence of an explicit copyright notice means essentially nothing after 1989. Posters do not place their comments into the public domain unless they give explicit notification that they do so; the notice at the bottom of every Slashdot page "All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster" lends additional credence to this concept.
When does copyright law come into effect?: If someone other than the copyright owner wants to exercise rights that exclusively belong to the owner (including reproduction, redistribution, creation of derivative works, performance, archival, or display). Some uses are, however, exempt from liability from infringement (including fair use, libraries, and certain educational purposes).
What constitutes fair use?: Traditionally, a four pronged test has applied to determine whether a specific usage falls under fair use or not. These are:
1) The nature and character of the use: nonprofit, educational, artistic, and personal uses tend to be looked upon more kindly than for-profit or commercial uses. Closer on the continium to preserving the rights of the copyright owner include criticism, newsreporting, and commentary. Note that receiving profits from the sale of a derivative work and than donating these profits to a charity does NOT fall under the category of nonprofit use; the user of the copyrighted material gains a benefit from the sell of the derivative work.
2) The nature of the copyrighted work that is being used: Works that are published and factual in character may be used more freely than creative or imaginative works. Judging from most Slashdot comments, it would appear as if many posters reflect on how incidents have affected their personal lives and emotional state. This is not neccesarily of a factual nature.
3) Amount of work used: needless to say, taking a copyrighted work in its entirety would severely diminish any plausible claim of fair use. I don't know how much of each comment Katz reproduces in his book.
4) Effect of use on status of original work: The situation in this case leans against fair use for the following four reasons.
-The original comments are still available and can be accessed freely.
-The copyright owner/s is/are identifiable, but, by Hemos' own admission no substantial effort was made to locate them beyond a token effort and then a comment to the effect that it was too difficult.
-Avoids payment for permission in an established market, where the owner of the comment has the reasonable expectation of being compensated for the use of his or her work (witness Janes' effort to locate the people quoted in their article)
-It is the specific intention of Katz and Hemos to delete all identifying information such that no credit is given to the owner of the copyrighted work, an enormous no-no in copyright law.
Considering these facts, especially the fourth prong of the test (interpreted via Princeton University Press vs. Michigan Document Services wherein the concept that the potential for economic damage caused by use of a copyrighted work negates fair use, even without regard to the first three prongs of the test), it seems beyond question that Jon Katz has made a severe mistake in publishing what is essentially a derivative work blatantly drawing on the creative works of others, with a deliberate effort to suppress the identities of those who contributed materially to it.
This comment may NOT be published or otherwise redistributed except as part of the Slashdot web page. This comment is NOT released to the public domain and is copyrighted by the poster.
Amazon.com patents are bad - they shouldn't be able to protect their ideas...but...Slashdot readers' post's copyrights are good - they should be able to protect every word.
Open Source / Open access to info is good - access to software and information should be free...but...Taking public posts and putting them into a book is bad - Slashdot posters should be paid for their comments.
This is the problem I have with the anti-patent / open source everything mentality - it only is supported when you are on the getting end, not the giving end.
How about instead we talk about the actual book and the potential good it might do for kids dealing with the shit in it?
Every time I see an article from Jon Katz, I am filled with resentment. I feel like we, the so-called geek community (I am even ashamed to call it that) are placed behind glass and shown off to the rest of the world by him. Like a zoo, with Katz as the zoo tour guide. He pretends to be "one of us" but he's an outsider, incapable of understanding what this culture is about. This latest book only underscores my dislike for him since he's effectively going out and selling tickets to come gawk at us!
"Look! Look!" he says, pointing to us, the geeks, in our glass cages. "Observe the things they eat, their mating habits..."
Doesn't he realize that we're human beings too? And maybe, just maybe, we just want to be left alone to do our thing?
--
(PS: Moderators: Please, moderate this up. This is not a troll. I am speaking truly from the bottom of my heart here. I am genuinely offended by the way Jon Katz treats us as objects to be exploited.)
1. No. They are not identified in a way that allows for any sort of indentification of them.
/really/ high, and the cover is expensive. At some point, we will probably do a cheaper version, but not for at least six months.
/very tiny/ on a person person basis.
2. For those who posted in a public forum, they were not consulted. We had considered tracking down people, but my inital test run of trying to track down people went so terribly, we gave up. You'd be amazed how many people change e-mail addresses in a year.
3. Fair amount of new material, but a lot of is edited material that draws all the columns together. The text, when printed, should be about 200, I think, although we don't have the final number back yet. We tried to go cheaper for the book, but the cost of paper is
4. The reality, in terms, of paying people is that the book wouldn't happen at that point. The amount of time that would have added to things would have made the book impossible. Besides, the amount of actual quoting from people, once the rest is considered is
5. We tried to deal with the Amazon thing, but you can't stop them from ordering for a resaler. Once something has entered the ISBN system, anyone can order it. However, at this time, we're only selling it through Amazon. As far as funds collected at this time, Katz is not taking money, I'm not taking any - we have to pay for the cost of making the book and the editor, but besides that, nada.
Yeah, I'm that guy.
Will the book include all of the posts? I ask this because not all of the posts are in the Slashdot archive. For example, two posts in the original Hellmouth piece which were modded to -1, and everything in reply to them , are not in the archive. This is bad, since some of the best posts were in reply to those (some had even been modded to 5), and are now gone. I only realized this recently, when I had to do a speech for a Persuasion class and was looking through those archives for research (yes, the speech was against geek profiling).
Frankly, that's enough that I can now say I have a grievance with the moderation system. And as an ardent believer in the system otherwise that's no small feat. But post archives should be complete archives, even if that means including the trolls. Otherwise, too many "good" posts (as defined even by moderation) are cut out.
And to the trolls reading this: don't think this means I'm joining your immature ranks anytime soon. I have better things to do then meet in the big UCTAM treehouse for milk and cookies. But I do agree with you on one small and easily-fixed aspect of the moderation system now.
This book isn't being published by me, so I'm not taking anybody's comments and publishing them. It's being published by Andover. I didn't select the postings in it.
But as a matter of law, comments posting in public for public dissemination can be reprinted, since they were posted for public discussion. The comments in this book are excerpts from among the many thousands of e-mails, and people are not identified by e-mail or name, so their privacy is protected. It's also a non-profit book, so there is no question of anybody's getting money. Nothing is paraphrased, though, as I understand it.
There were thousands of pots, both to
jonkatz@slashdot.org
Hello?
Public forum - anything said in a public forum can be quoted by ANYBODY without ANY permission.
You own the comments, but that doesn't give you some magical right to roll back 200 years of law.
The fact that they even tried is admirable, considering that they have absolutly NO legal obligation to do so.
- The unexamined life is not worth leading -
Hey everyone, did we all just forget that these guys turned out not to be the "Geeks" Slashdot wanted them to be? Has that little detail been conveniently forgotten?
Sure, there's no reason we can't talk about the horrible treatment of Geeks (and others) in today
s high schools, but you know what? I don't see any justification for linking that debate with Columbine.
The Columbine killers were just crazy. Remember the Trench Coat Mafia? That group of outsiders that had an ongoing feud with the jocks, and talked about getting picked on constantly, and about how high school was hell for them? Yeah, well, Harris and Klebold were not in that group.
Harris and Klebold turned out to be, well... crazy. Two guys who just had it in for everyone else for no particular reason at all. Hard as it may be for you to believe, that is what a thorough investigation of their diary and videotaped rants has concluded.
There it is.
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
Yes, because today a 17 year-old girl is being sentenced to life in prison for the beating death of another teenaged girl named Reena Virk.
Reena was a 14 year old of Indian decent (that's from India not aboriginal) who was a little overwieght and a visible minority. Three years or so ago she was kicked to death and then thrown in a river and drowned by a group of teenagers who thought she was a 'goof' and 'weird'. They were the 'cool' kids and she was the outsider. Another group of teens has already been sentenced to jail in the case.
Reena's case is the extreme but it demonstrates that there is more than just 'a little bit of extra hassling by school administrators' and peers going on. How many other children take their own lives after the cruel harassment and torture of their so-called friends has become too much - what number is bigger, the number of school death by shooting or the number of teen suicides?
We can pay homage to the 15 (yes 15) vicims of Columbine not by stiffling discussion about the issues surrounding the tragedy but by shouting it from the roof tops so every kid will hear. We will never stop the Columbine's of the world from happening if we pretend they were madmen about which we could have done nothing. On the contrary, maybe this tragedy could have been avoided if only one teacher or one other student had spoken out against the kind of treatment the two killers (and many others) recieved on a daily basis, some time in the past before the two snapped.
I'm willing to bet some of the victim's families wish someone had.
The real tragedy of Columbine is that it was entirely avoidable and some of the victims must share a little responsibility for what happend to them (though, to be clear, not as much as the two killers - NOBODY deserves the the treatment they got but NOBODY deserves to die because of it).
You want to remember the victims? Teach you children tolerance, manners and respect for others so there are never any other victims to remember.
Don't poke your head in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
You people sicken me. You, the people who are posting and patting yourselves on the back for being so intelligent for pointing out a possible conflict of interests on Slashdot's part or a question of copyright law... as if any of the sound and fury you pour into these posts signifies anything at all.
A book has been compiled to reflect your opinions regarding Columbine and its aftermath. It'll be something in hard copy. Something at a bookstore that your average Joe can pick up and think about. Maybe Joe is an alcoholic who beats his kid, and the book will make him think twice about the consequences. Or maybe Joe is the leader of a local PTA who thinks that her son's school "would be just fine if it weren't for those few creepy kids who dress in black all the time and spend all their time on that Internet-thing."
Being in print legitimizes what you have to say--far more than many of you realize. The countless posts you've poured your hearts and souls into here don't amount to a hill of dingo's kidneys while they're just sitting on Slashdot's servers, because 99.999% of the world is *never* going to hear what you have to say. But getting it in print, getting those words an ISBN and a place on a bookstore shelf--*that* act can drop that percentage of people who aren't hearing you.
BUT... what is the overwhelming response to this chance for the message to be heard? A great Wave of whining idiots who are more concerned with looking out for number one. "What about crediting ME for MY words?" "How could Slashdot have the gall to snip a couple dozen words from MY post and violate MY rights guaranteed by God and the Internet and the message at the bottom of this page?" "Exactly who is getting rich off of the sweat of MY brow?"
Andover is *actually doing something* about the bad rap that geeks and others have been receiving from the mainstream media for years--they're doing something more than just typing little words into a little box on a little website--and you want to jump all over their backs because your little words might actually have an impact beyond the Slashdot community, and you don't have full creative control over it.
"And, for Pete's sake, make sure they don't sell it on Amazon.com!" Sure... God forbid that the book be sold somewhere prominent where people who *aren't* geeks might find out about it. Let's make sure we're only preaching to the choir, here.
The message in the book is a powerful one, and it *has* power because so many individuals have something to say. Not one person--thousands of people--make this book important. Your one little post didn't mean anything until there were another hundred posts just like it, so quit puffing yourself up with self-importance and righteous indignation.
Will some people make money from this book? Yes. UPS will probably make a killing on shipping charges, if it turns out this book is a success. Andover will make money--but then, it's their money that they're putting on the line to get this thing published and out to everyone. Booksellers will make some money, too. But the money that CmdrTaco and Hemos and company make--the only money that they really have control over--will go to causes that they hope this community believes in.
The message is bigger than you are. Have the decency to be big enough, yourselves, to let it be heard.
-----------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups.
For the upcoming anniversary of Slashdot, I will be releasing the paperback version of "Voices From The Trolls."
Table of Contents:
Chapter I:
"First Post!"
Chapter II:
"The Glorious MEEPT -- Early Slashdot"
Chapter III;
"Futility -- GPL vs. BSD, KDE vs. GNOME, Emacs vs. vi"
Chapter IV:
"Nudity and Petrification -- From Segfault to Slashdot"
Chapter V:
"Hot Grits -- Not Just For Breakfast Anymore"
Chapter VI:
"The Final Option -- CmdrTaco/Hemos/CowboyNeal Sucks"
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
I just want to clarify something that seemed ambiguous in both Taco's post and the Think Geek page - are comments posted on slashdot by us, its audience, posted in this book?
If so, a few questions:
1.) Are the posters of those comments listed by name and/or handle?
2.) Have they been consulted about have their comments published?
3.) How much "new material" is in this book? How many pages is the text? $15 for a paperback seems like a bit much.
4.) As noted at the disclaimer on the bottom of each page of slashdot, "Comments are owned by the Poster." I think that giving the proceeds to charity is a worthy cause, but what if someone desired a cut of the profits for the portion of the content they provided? I sure hope no one here would be so selfish and arrogant, but it does happen. . .
5.) Has anyone at slashdot made an effort to keep this from going on Amazon? Put your money where your mouth is and support that boycott - and I'm sure that someone is making money through the sale from Think Geek, which is, of course, owned by the same people who are donating the rest of the proceeds - is it just the slashdot staffs' portion of the proceeds that go to charity, or everything andover and its employees get from this?
-- Imagine how much more advanced our technology would be if we had eight fingers per hand.
The impression we get of them from the media are not real, they are cardboard cut outs meant to represent "the teenaged menace" and allow for a crackdown the like of which America has never seen.
Jon Katz Hellmouth stories weren't about two sociopaths who went on a killing spree, they were about people who were victimized in its aftermath. They aren't about a town Littleton or a school called Columbine, they are about media generated illusions designed to push a repressive political agenda.
It is irrelevant that today is the anniversary of Columbine save to those directly affected by the tragedy. Did anyone notice the anniversary of Jonesborough, Arkansas or Paducah, Kentuky? Not in the mainstream media, at any rate, they've decided the most useful instrument for their statist agenda is the illusion they created around Columbine.
Perhaps Jon Katz is not the best person to write a book and expose this agenda, but at least he is doing something. I've seen very few people elsewhere tackling the spectre created by the media who used the victims of the Columbine tragedy for their own ends. I have watched the TeeVee news this week, and you know what I hear, "This just in, the anniversary of the Columbine Tragedy (a trademark of Time/Warner Inc.) is set to come up, are your children safe. We now go to a drill being conducted by the Lutz PD, in case a similar event happens here." (Cut to scenes of kids being walked out of a school with their hands over their heads, looking like criminals. I'm not sure it was actually Lutz, but it was one of the schools around here. Oh, and of course I satirically paraphrased the newsreader's words, but that was the gist of them.)
It shouldn't shock me that so many people posting to Slashdot these days are completely duped by the media, or hate Jon Katz so much, that they'll go on and on about how this announcement is "poor taste" but I doubt have written to their local News stations to express the same sentiments. However, it is important that these people are not the only voices heard or posts read.
Someday, maybe soon, I'm going to have kids. I do not want them thrust into some Orwellian nightmare just because a bunch of people are whining about "poor taste." If you want to whine about poor taste, why not try the conventional media? MSNBCVs Article on the Anniversary I'm sure they'll really care about your complaints, and store them in a strong metal container... a trash can.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
The rest of the world NEEDS a tour guide to geeks. This is what many of us seem to miss completely. We can't understand why the rest of the world can't understand us, but it comes from a fundamental lack of understanding on the part of the outside world, so to speak. The mass media has turned the word "geek" into one of two things - a revered, nearly god-like individual who controls technology and can make the world fall to peices with the very click of his mouse, or a dangerous antisocialite who is a threat to everyone, both digitally or physically.
These people are the ones that look at the words "computer gaming" and think "doom is a killing simulator". This does not bode well for many of us, who enjoy a FPS once in a while. (Note : This applies to most gaming genres. Tell someone that Civ II is a "world building" game and they'll give you the 'look'). So, what's the solution to bridging this gap that exists?
People like Katz. He might not be a geek, and he might not fully understand geeks, but he's actually got a grasp on many important issues. For the most part, he gets his information somewhat right. And a book like this is, in my opinion, VERY important. Who else to present the facts "from the other side of the fence" than someone who is riding the rails? Hopefully, this won't just be a one-time thing. Perhaps we need to get a "Geek Lifestyle 101" written as an open source project from slashdot comments or something, heh.
and that's my $0.02