I happen to be allergic to most artificial sugars, specifically the ones used in diet sodas. Should I really have to pay a tax on a beverage when the alternative is to go to the emergency room unable to breath cause my throat has swollen its self shut?
Some of it is i think the history of unions, their organized crime connections at times and that they tend to become a bloated political machine. They make it so hard to fire people that it seems like so long as your breathing and somewhere in the state the company can't fire you. More than a few of my unionized friends have complained about coworkers that do just enough not to get fired while everyone else has to make up the work. To me it seems to encourage a sense of entitlement and laziness. I personally think that a union that forms for a temporary time for real grievances the employer has done against the employees is okay. Long term standing organizations tend to stagnate and they need to be shaken up from time to time. but thats just my opinion, i could be wrong.
as much as the thought of the inequality of the ec has I can not bring myself to support moving the US to they tyranny off the majority if but for one small slice of our world that i was shown by jay leno.
jay leno runs that Great American Pop Quiz every once in a while. it's neat to see what most normal americans right off the street of nyc do and do not know. when the average american knows who teddy roosevelt was, knows who's faces are carved into mount rushmore, who knows why the south tried to leave the union, when the average american knows all that with out needing to wrack their brain then i'll agree that the ec has gone the way of the dodo.
until someone can prove that the common man has the intelligence and the great concern to educate themselves properly on what is going on in the world so they can make an informed decision as to who to chose for president then i am all for the ec. i would prefer it if there were more "faithless" among them to be honest.
Thanks for that in depth, and i suspect comparatively shallow compared to the rest out there, thought as whats going on. I thought that the boom and bust would be the system over compensating, it seems logical. In my head at least. ~z
mm I understand, I'm just wondering what the mechanism for this vaulted "Free Market" is for maintaining equilibrium. I always thought the boom and bust was the market trying, not very well, to keep its balance. A few things we have in place I think push it to swing much too wildly. Any time you add panicky animals like humans to an equation I think it is easy to make it go from only small swings to huge ones.
You say that a boom and bust cycle is contradictory to the market trying to maintain equilibrium. My question is how does the market maintain equilibrium? A boom and bust cycle could be the market teetering back and forth trying to find that point of balance, could it not?
functional identical to generating isk? we are talking about an exploit here, permission to print money would be permission to generate it out of thin air, even if you do auto gen materials you still need to sell them, and that isk had to come from somewhere, it came from other players who got it from normal sources, they moved isk around, the over all isk in eve did not increase. they did not generate any isk. they functionally generated it for them selves and only in reference to themselves. i know i'm arguing a semantic point but its an important one i think when you look at a closed(mostly) system suck as an mmo.
Err what part of taking an independent inventory escapes you? Is it really that impossible for the players to go and find out what each moon out puts and cross reference that with the data that the devs released? No one shares this sort of data with each other? no one talks about any of it?
while i agree that not every destroyed ship is a potential sale, however, unless every person has their equipment produced internally within their own corp(at which point the whole market in eve dies completely and there is no need for an economist) there is some profit out there to be made. and if this is concerning hulks or iterons or blackbirds or whatever knowing how many are destroyed should help you with selling more. if he said "0 hulks have been destroyed this past quarter" then you will realize that no one is flying them or getting killed in them, you should also realize that if they arnt getting destroyed then there should be almost no market for them. now if say 1mil were destroyed 2 quaters ago and this past quarter say 2mil are destroyed, then either a whole ton of people got careless or they are getting more popular and you can ramp up production.
there has to be a market in eve to thrive no corp can be (or should be) completely self contained.
Knowing that a ship that uses high levels of iso who's rate of destruction has double in the past 3 months should give you an idea that iso use maybe on the rise. just a thought.
maybe i'm being a bit strict about this whole license to print money thing, isk in eve is only generated when you run a mission for a agent or you murder a pirate for the bounty. if no one did either of those things (I maybe missing something else, oohh trade runs!) no isk is added into the system and the total amount of isk in eve (should) never changes.
Also has none of the players in arguing that there are not enough moons ever crunched the numbers themselves? I know they guys over at ccp release a db dump of all the planets moon and stuff, hasn't anyone taken an independent inventory and went "Ein menuten bitter!"? I'm wondering on that.
Personally If i'm selling hulks, or any ship for that matter, the rate at which they are being blown up is a good thing to know, It would tell me if i need to ramp up production or if i need to scale back, i don't recall if he does provide locational data but if so that would be valuable too.
also if i'm the mineral suppliers to said hulk producers i'd like to know if theres going to be a spike in demand. I guess what info is useful depends on if you're going to do anything based on it or not. If all i do is run missions i can see how knowing the number of any ships being destroyed wouldn't mean anything to me.
I would like to point out that my own count of how long the econ has been there is off by a year, 6 months in 07 and on full yeah (almost!) off 08 means only a year and a half. I apologize. Still not a whole lot of time to get a grip on the whole of the eve universe imo.
I have read his reports, I beta tested eve for 5 months and then played it for 3 years or so, granted I have been out of the loop for while, please don't treat me like a 13yr old who's only experience with mmo's is wow.
It's one person who claims 3 trillion isk, on an anonymous account on a 3rd party message board.
the CCP post by wrangler said 7 corps were found doings this. 70 accounts(so far) and given that most people have 2 accounts or more thats prolly more like 30 people. in any case 4 years does seem like quite a large bit of time for this to be kept to so few and for the devs who play in some of these high end corps to not notice.
3trillion isk also is not a huge amount and by reading through the thread its not like they had a license to print money, they made in mats for t2 and had to sell them.
a titan costs how much to make? bob made how many of them? gs made how many? the russians and on and on. hell Taggart(or was it taggert?) made billions and billion before there were bs's let alone afterwards (do you know what every happened to them? I always wondered but i never really was interested enough to get in there and ask where are they now?)
also how long as the econ been working there? like 2 years now or 3? If this does go back as far as they say it almost seems that it would have been there before he was, if so then it would have seemed part of the status quo to him... Excuse me, his first blog post on eve was dated June 2007, my guess on how he missed it for 4 years is that he wasn't there for 2.5 of them.
I liked my termites analogy, this is slashdot maybe a car analogy is better? The econ is as much a resident of eve as someone is inside their house, his job is to observe, report and speculate on the future movements of the markets, not to tally up all the inputs and outputs of every last station and moon and compare.
Why would you call an exterminator in the first place? cause the house is falling apart or you see ants/termites/whatever the people in eve didn't see anything. Again if you are not aware of the problem you do not know to call anyone to fix it.
I wasn't aware that there was "copper" in Eve. Other than that, have I been mislead by TFS? It does say that the exploit lead to the creation of trillions of isk.
note: after i posted the comment i responded to you i read up on it and went through that mammoth thread at eve online's forums along with the anonymous post saying its been going on for 4 years. I believe i responded to you again below with a more informed mind as to what was happening.
I will reiterate that I find it hard to believe that only one person spoke up over the course of 4 years. especially with this seemingly to affect some 4 corps. Thats a ton of people to trust a secret to. and for 4 years? It's amazing that everyone from bob to the gs wasn't running rampant with it.
I really liked SupCom, that came out in the past decade, in fact all of my friends played with me. I can't say the Total War franchise is real time persay but again I played most of them, all in the past decade. Then there's Empire Earth, again past decade and at least everyone I knew played them. Then there's the warhammer games, those are pretty nifty. and the C&C games as well. There is another RTS coming out by GPG soon, I forget what its called.
I'm pretty sure most FPS's are dev'ed for the PC first. Call me crazy but the only console to pc fps's i can think of are gears of war and.... I'm thinking... well oblivion did have that whole xbox control scheme, but that was really only the laziness of bethesda.
Your summing up leaves a little bit to be desired. there are more games out there other than just WoW. Also could you point me to where FPS's sell more on consoles than PC's, I'm really quite interested in that.
errr isn't that was every economist does? Also not knowing there is a problem means you don't know to search for the problem. I'm sure that every person who finds out that termites have been eating their house for the past 4 years thinks "how did i miss this?" 3trillion isk over 4 years? tbh that doesn't sound like a lot. What surprises me that there wasn't a singular player over the course of 4 years that didn't report this, or even a series of players that didn't report it. To think that only one player reported it a problem over such a large portion off time really doesn't ring true.
biggest problem is that if all the hardware out there is in the form of consoles then there is nothing but consoles for all of those enterprising individuals who love to tinker with software and hardware(read pirates). you would quickly see people jail breaking, as it were, their consoles with additional hardware or software upgrades to use the systems as the end user wants, not how Sony/MS/Nintendo wants.
The hardware is in the hands of the enemy and you'll have a hard time preventing anyone from cracking open a bank vault when they own it and can do whatever with it in the privacy of their own home.
Fallout 3 was leaked on the internet some 20 days before its release for the 360. Piracy will just migrate to the majority platform and we'll still have the same situation as we have now.
I do believe you are right that the hardware and software devs have this idea, this belief, that IF they could control the hardware in some way then everything will be all right. But that is a horrible fantasy to live in. Imagine being the owner of a bank that had its enter bank vault stolen (yeah I know not logistically realistic but go out on a limb for me will ya? ^^), are you going to have the warm and fuzzies just cause the walls are 24inches of solid steal with those glass tampering mechanisms?
~zehaeva
RTS games are joy to play on consoles then? FPS games? I'll grant you some RPG's and Platformers and a few FPS's designed from the outset to work well on consoles but every other genre than MMO's?
~zehaeva
There is going to be a large amount of demand for "Computer Forensics Specialist" in the near future. Too bad the majority of them are going to go to devry thinking they're going to learn everything they need to.
There was a time before that that people thought the earth revolved around the sun. I believe that the whole geocentric thought of the universe was more religiously motivated than any kind of rational exercise.
see at the turn of the century, 19th turning into the 20th that is, all this stuff was legal. then some uptight women got really upset that their husbands came home drunk/doped up every night so we got these laws pushed though congress and even an amendment to the constitution! since then the war on our personal freedoms (well maybe even a bit before) has been widening in scope. remember to thank your (great)grand mother!
oversimplified but close enough for government work
So the answer is to keep the welfare coming? just to sate the everyone who can't support themselves and keep them from crime? Bribe the poor unwashed masses? that's the answer? I can not believe that welfare alone would throw the country into such lawlessness that we might as well be living in the wild west. If that is true then we as a country and the whole world at large must have been very lucky to make it so far.
Slashdot Mirror
I happen to be allergic to most artificial sugars, specifically the ones used in diet sodas. Should I really have to pay a tax on a beverage when the alternative is to go to the emergency room unable to breath cause my throat has swollen its self shut?
Some of it is i think the history of unions, their organized crime connections at times and that they tend to become a bloated political machine. They make it so hard to fire people that it seems like so long as your breathing and somewhere in the state the company can't fire you. More than a few of my unionized friends have complained about coworkers that do just enough not to get fired while everyone else has to make up the work. To me it seems to encourage a sense of entitlement and laziness. I personally think that a union that forms for a temporary time for real grievances the employer has done against the employees is okay. Long term standing organizations tend to stagnate and they need to be shaken up from time to time. but thats just my opinion, i could be wrong.
as much as the thought of the inequality of the ec has I can not bring myself to support moving the US to they tyranny off the majority if but for one small slice of our world that i was shown by jay leno.
jay leno runs that Great American Pop Quiz every once in a while. it's neat to see what most normal americans right off the street of nyc do and do not know. when the average american knows who teddy roosevelt was, knows who's faces are carved into mount rushmore, who knows why the south tried to leave the union, when the average american knows all that with out needing to wrack their brain then i'll agree that the ec has gone the way of the dodo.
until someone can prove that the common man has the intelligence and the great concern to educate themselves properly on what is going on in the world so they can make an informed decision as to who to chose for president then i am all for the ec. i would prefer it if there were more "faithless" among them to be honest.
~z
Thanks for that in depth, and i suspect comparatively shallow compared to the rest out there, thought as whats going on. I thought that the boom and bust would be the system over compensating, it seems logical. In my head at least. ~z
mm I understand, I'm just wondering what the mechanism for this vaulted "Free Market" is for maintaining equilibrium. I always thought the boom and bust was the market trying, not very well, to keep its balance. A few things we have in place I think push it to swing much too wildly. Any time you add panicky animals like humans to an equation I think it is easy to make it go from only small swings to huge ones.
he's trying to maintain equilibrium right? I don't recall where its said that a free market will always be in equilibrium
~z
You say that a boom and bust cycle is contradictory to the market trying to maintain equilibrium. My question is how does the market maintain equilibrium? A boom and bust cycle could be the market teetering back and forth trying to find that point of balance, could it not?
~z
functional identical to generating isk? we are talking about an exploit here, permission to print money would be permission to generate it out of thin air, even if you do auto gen materials you still need to sell them, and that isk had to come from somewhere, it came from other players who got it from normal sources, they moved isk around, the over all isk in eve did not increase. they did not generate any isk. they functionally generated it for them selves and only in reference to themselves. i know i'm arguing a semantic point but its an important one i think when you look at a closed(mostly) system suck as an mmo.
Err what part of taking an independent inventory escapes you? Is it really that impossible for the players to go and find out what each moon out puts and cross reference that with the data that the devs released? No one shares this sort of data with each other? no one talks about any of it?
while i agree that not every destroyed ship is a potential sale, however, unless every person has their equipment produced internally within their own corp(at which point the whole market in eve dies completely and there is no need for an economist) there is some profit out there to be made. and if this is concerning hulks or iterons or blackbirds or whatever knowing how many are destroyed should help you with selling more. if he said "0 hulks have been destroyed this past quarter" then you will realize that no one is flying them or getting killed in them, you should also realize that if they arnt getting destroyed then there should be almost no market for them. now if say 1mil were destroyed 2 quaters ago and this past quarter say 2mil are destroyed, then either a whole ton of people got careless or they are getting more popular and you can ramp up production.
there has to be a market in eve to thrive no corp can be (or should be) completely self contained.
Knowing that a ship that uses high levels of iso who's rate of destruction has double in the past 3 months should give you an idea that iso use maybe on the rise. just a thought.
maybe i'm being a bit strict about this whole license to print money thing, isk in eve is only generated when you run a mission for a agent or you murder a pirate for the bounty. if no one did either of those things (I maybe missing something else, oohh trade runs!) no isk is added into the system and the total amount of isk in eve (should) never changes.
Also has none of the players in arguing that there are not enough moons ever crunched the numbers themselves? I know they guys over at ccp release a db dump of all the planets moon and stuff, hasn't anyone taken an independent inventory and went "Ein menuten bitter!"? I'm wondering on that.
Personally If i'm selling hulks, or any ship for that matter, the rate at which they are being blown up is a good thing to know, It would tell me if i need to ramp up production or if i need to scale back, i don't recall if he does provide locational data but if so that would be valuable too.
also if i'm the mineral suppliers to said hulk producers i'd like to know if theres going to be a spike in demand. I guess what info is useful depends on if you're going to do anything based on it or not. If all i do is run missions i can see how knowing the number of any ships being destroyed wouldn't mean anything to me.
I would like to point out that my own count of how long the econ has been there is off by a year, 6 months in 07 and on full yeah (almost!) off 08 means only a year and a half. I apologize. Still not a whole lot of time to get a grip on the whole of the eve universe imo.
~z
I have read his reports, I beta tested eve for 5 months and then played it for 3 years or so, granted I have been out of the loop for while, please don't treat me like a 13yr old who's only experience with mmo's is wow.
It's one person who claims 3 trillion isk, on an anonymous account on a 3rd party message board.
the CCP post by wrangler said 7 corps were found doings this. 70 accounts(so far) and given that most people have 2 accounts or more thats prolly more like 30 people. in any case 4 years does seem like quite a large bit of time for this to be kept to so few and for the devs who play in some of these high end corps to not notice.
3trillion isk also is not a huge amount and by reading through the thread its not like they had a license to print money, they made in mats for t2 and had to sell them.
a titan costs how much to make? bob made how many of them? gs made how many? the russians and on and on. hell Taggart(or was it taggert?) made billions and billion before there were bs's let alone afterwards (do you know what every happened to them? I always wondered but i never really was interested enough to get in there and ask where are they now?)
also how long as the econ been working there? like 2 years now or 3? If this does go back as far as they say it almost seems that it would have been there before he was, if so then it would have seemed part of the status quo to him. .. Excuse me, his first blog post on eve was dated June 2007, my guess on how he missed it for 4 years is that he wasn't there for 2.5 of them.
I liked my termites analogy, this is slashdot maybe a car analogy is better? The econ is as much a resident of eve as someone is inside their house, his job is to observe, report and speculate on the future movements of the markets, not to tally up all the inputs and outputs of every last station and moon and compare.
Why would you call an exterminator in the first place? cause the house is falling apart or you see ants/termites/whatever the people in eve didn't see anything. Again if you are not aware of the problem you do not know to call anyone to fix it.
~z
note: after i posted the comment i responded to you i read up on it and went through that mammoth thread at eve online's forums along with the anonymous post saying its been going on for 4 years. I believe i responded to you again below with a more informed mind as to what was happening.
I will reiterate that I find it hard to believe that only one person spoke up over the course of 4 years. especially with this seemingly to affect some 4 corps. Thats a ton of people to trust a secret to. and for 4 years? It's amazing that everyone from bob to the gs wasn't running rampant with it.
~z
I'm pretty sure most FPS's are dev'ed for the PC first. Call me crazy but the only console to pc fps's i can think of are gears of war and .... I'm thinking ... well oblivion did have that whole xbox control scheme, but that was really only the laziness of bethesda.
Your summing up leaves a little bit to be desired. there are more games out there other than just WoW. Also could you point me to where FPS's sell more on consoles than PC's, I'm really quite interested in that.
~z
errr isn't that was every economist does? Also not knowing there is a problem means you don't know to search for the problem. I'm sure that every person who finds out that termites have been eating their house for the past 4 years thinks "how did i miss this?" 3trillion isk over 4 years? tbh that doesn't sound like a lot. What surprises me that there wasn't a singular player over the course of 4 years that didn't report this, or even a series of players that didn't report it. To think that only one player reported it a problem over such a large portion off time really doesn't ring true.
except your talking about an mmo that does create money out of thin air. there is no limited supply by which you can gauge against.
CCP does have an honest to god real life professional economist on staff. ~z
biggest problem is that if all the hardware out there is in the form of consoles then there is nothing but consoles for all of those enterprising individuals who love to tinker with software and hardware(read pirates). you would quickly see people jail breaking, as it were, their consoles with additional hardware or software upgrades to use the systems as the end user wants, not how Sony/MS/Nintendo wants.
The hardware is in the hands of the enemy and you'll have a hard time preventing anyone from cracking open a bank vault when they own it and can do whatever with it in the privacy of their own home.
Fallout 3 was leaked on the internet some 20 days before its release for the 360. Piracy will just migrate to the majority platform and we'll still have the same situation as we have now.
I do believe you are right that the hardware and software devs have this idea, this belief, that IF they could control the hardware in some way then everything will be all right. But that is a horrible fantasy to live in. Imagine being the owner of a bank that had its enter bank vault stolen (yeah I know not logistically realistic but go out on a limb for me will ya? ^^), are you going to have the warm and fuzzies just cause the walls are 24inches of solid steal with those glass tampering mechanisms? ~zehaeva
RTS games are joy to play on consoles then? FPS games? I'll grant you some RPG's and Platformers and a few FPS's designed from the outset to work well on consoles but every other genre than MMO's? ~zehaeva
There is going to be a large amount of demand for "Computer Forensics Specialist" in the near future. Too bad the majority of them are going to go to devry thinking they're going to learn everything they need to.
There was a time before that that people thought the earth revolved around the sun. I believe that the whole geocentric thought of the universe was more religiously motivated than any kind of rational exercise.
Someone doesn't watch mythbusters >>
oddly enough him using such an archaic word didn't even register in my head, maybe I read too much Shakespeare? ~z
"What about love?"
"Love? Biochemically no different than eating large amounts of chocolate."
~the Devil on Love.
see at the turn of the century, 19th turning into the 20th that is, all this stuff was legal. then some uptight women got really upset that their husbands came home drunk/doped up every night so we got these laws pushed though congress and even an amendment to the constitution! since then the war on our personal freedoms (well maybe even a bit before) has been widening in scope. remember to thank your (great)grand mother!
oversimplified but close enough for government work
So the answer is to keep the welfare coming? just to sate the everyone who can't support themselves and keep them from crime? Bribe the poor unwashed masses? that's the answer? I can not believe that welfare alone would throw the country into such lawlessness that we might as well be living in the wild west. If that is true then we as a country and the whole world at large must have been very lucky to make it so far.
I thought we offered statehood to Puerto Rico and they refused it?