"As a small business owner, I think you are asking an awful lot."
Not really. There is an everify system available to employers. If there is a problem with a SSN the SSA will send a letter. It's not perfect but most employers have a very good idea of the status of their workers. Or if they don't, they very likely chose not to.
I frankly can't believe people when they say they made a good faith effort due to the large number of employers who don't. It sucks for the honest people who don't discriminate and follow the rules. Unfortunately not many of them speak up.
"Tell us what you want us to do, and we'll do it, but don't get upset when employees figure out how to circumvent the system."
Why shouldn't we get upset?
Case in point, Arizona has had a law on the books requiring everify since 2008. Business groups have repeatedly sued to try to block it. It's pretty obvious that business doesn't want to follow the law.
"...this is not the fault of an airline having mis-judged its margins but an unprecedented restriction on normal business. I think that there is a good case, in moral terms, for at least having the EU refund the costs brought on by passenger rights legislation."
I disagree 100%. Airspace has been closed before due to volcanic ash. It has been closed for extended periods for other events. Iceland is a volcanic island and the prevailing winds blow toward Europe. The airlines could have insured against this event.
The airlines chose not to prepare for a rare event and it bit them in the ass. They knew the rules of the game upfront. I see no reason to reward them for failure.
"...the tired mantra of blaming the Americans for the world's ills is getting very old."
That's odd, but I see no evidence of this. The US did in fact kill alot of people for no good reason beyond occupying a country.
"We need a new 'Godwin's Rule' to say the argument is over when people start jumping on this bandwagon."
Why? So you don't have to be bothered by your conscience? I hate to break it to you but when our actions (or inaction) cause bad things in the world, we are responsible for them.
"No in companies, surfing porn can and often gets you fired. In Government doing the same just gets you transferred to the next site/department."
I really wish that people would stop with this idea that somehow corporations are magically different than government. I've been in very large corporations where surfing porn was perfectly acceptable and in government offices where doing so would result in termination. It's all about the culture of the organization-if supported or enabled by management it will happen. Likewise, if management doesn't want it to happen, it won't. The fact that it is a private or government organization is really irrelevant.
"It is just too f'n hard to fire people in government."
Not really. All it requires is the desire and documentation. Pretty much the same thing any intelligent private organization will do in an attempt to prevent a lawsuit. The real problem is that most managers are lazy and unwilling to do their job. The great thing about having lots of rules and regulations is that it is easy to find violations (you don't thing the employee handbook is there to help the employee do you?).
"When a hospital does this, they call it triage, and there is no outrage."
It's also based on sound data and results (aka science). And when it fails people tend to sue and win large amounts of money. I think you might call that outrage.
"If we take as given that resources are finite, then not every case of juvenile delinquency can get the full service treatment, so we must find a way to allocate resources efficiently. The point of this analysis is to estimate which cases need more intervention, and which need less."
In triage, all patients do eventually get treatment if they need it. So the two are not the same. Why exactly we need a computer to do what humans have been always been doing is unclear to me. It sounds like a waste of resources as you need more data (computers don't do well with fuzzy logic), it needs to be in a computer useful form (people have to input it/gather it) and you still need humans to verify the accuracy.
"The point of using computer systems is to dig through bias and perceptions and get to a root cause."
This is the failure in your assumption. This system won't look at the root cause. It will be used to determine who can be "salvaged" rather than can the money be better spent elsewhere. The biases and perceptions will just be programmed into the computer so the results will have an air of impartiality.
"That's not the case. The taser is meant to displace the police baton and/or pepper spray. It is not meant to be used in situations where deadly force is justifiable."
That's odd. Because the taser was sold as an alternative to a firearm not the baton or pepper spray. I doubt you will find many police agencies admit otherwise. Or at least you won't find them advertising the fact. Because it would probably upset alot of people.
I certainly agree that it has replaced the baton and pepper spray. There might be a case for the former. There is no good reason for the latter.
"So, what do you do in a car without a starter key?"
Apply the brakes and stop the car. Then you press the start button. Very similar to the way you turn the car off when you are finished driving it. Owner manuals do exist for a reason.
"How about one where the transmission is computer-controlled so you can't shift to neutral at high speeds?"
Apply the brakes and stop the car. Then shift into neutral. I am not aware of any car that prevents you from shifting into neutral at high speed. If you find one, don't buy it.
"I don't know just what makes you think vaccination remains voluntary...you can barely get away with attending school if you don't have vaccinations. My mom thought she didn't like them and had to use some form to pretend she held a 'religious objection' to the required vaccines."
The poster thinks they are voluntary because you didn't have to get them. That's the definition of voluntary.
People like your mom are the reason that vaccination should be mandatory. She is endangering the lives of her children and others because of her ignorance.
"If I were writing the rules, public education would include the biology of sex and conception as well as hygiene, but with a light warning, something along the lines of "We've taught you the mechanics, health risks, how to manage that, but we can't teach you how to manage the emotional and psychological issues that some people find go along with sex."
You do realize that those ARE THE RULES?!?! At least in any fact (reality) based sex education course taught in that last thirty plus years in the US. Your suggestion was the well established well studied well documented standard program when I attended school decades ago. But then the conservatives and religious right never let the facts get in the way of their beliefs when it comes to sex.
The schools aren't in your religion. Your religion is in the schools.
"I'm tired of the school system teaching their versions of morals and sexuality to children. I want to see parents teach their children about morals and sexuality."
Yeah, good information coupled with themes of integrity, equality and reason are antithetical to religion. If you wish to continue to instill your disinformation and biases you will have to do it at home.
"When did the State become the parent and the parent become nothing more than a provider of food, clothing, and shelter for their child?"
When the parents stopped doing it. Do you seriously think that teachers WANT to be social workers? They want to teach the subjects they were hired to teach. It's the primary reason I haven't become a teacher.
"...not to provide step by step instructions on how to have sex, tell them how to avoid the "side effects" of sex (pregnancy, STDs), and then hand out sample condoms—that's the job of their parents!"
I hate to break this to you but students don't need instructions on how to have sex. It's hardwired in our biology. They do need help to avoid the negative consequences. Because abstinence doesn't work. It is a school issue because disease transmission and teen pregnancy is a public health matter. And expensive. If those same people who didn't want the schools and government involved in sex education didn't use government money and programs to mitigate the results of their lack of education and poor choices, you would have a point. Put simply, the vast majority of people opposed to sex education are hypocrites.
"The only possible claim that USAF had to a separate identity... strategic airpower, IE hitting targets far away and distant from troops on the battlefield... became moot in the age of ballistic and cruise missiles, which are launched... here it is again... by guys on the ground."
And as the Navy is based on the ground then they should be part of the the army, yes? Because they don't live on the sea. Sure they spend a few months there but it is still only temporary. Likewise, in theory there is no real need to separate the Marines from the Navy or the Army.
The reason for the separation is a combination of tradition and the practical. If you incorporate the Marines into the Navy or the Army, you will cease to have an effective marine corps. The navy wants ships, not grunts. If you incorporate the Airforce into the Army (and other branches) you will cease to have an effective strategic air force for the same reasons. They will take the missions they want and ignore and/or damage the missions they don't think are important.
"Actually, you should ask your doctor what his "cash price" is. Many doctors will give you a giant discount if you pay cash,..."
And the typical response is "What is the name of your insurance company". Seriously. Most staff can't comprehend the concept of patient paying in cash (doctors don't deal with payment issues). And their "discount" when you finally get through to them is "list price".
"Established journals (peer reviewed or not as appropriate to the field) and/or news sources relative to the field. Acknowledged experts within the field. Acknowledged texts relative to the field."
And how do you know that these things have credibility on a specific subject covered by a paper? Sure they may have credibility in the aggregate but that is rarely what we are interested in. And how does someone with little to no knowledge of the field tell the difference?
"If Wikipedia has any credibility at all, it's because it has cribbed from these sources (among many others)."
Precisely the point. Journals are only as credible as the people who review the articles and the people who submit them. The same with texts. And experts. The Lancet published a paper by Wakefield et al in 1998. In 2004, ten of the 13 authors retracted their support, yet it took another six years for the Lancet to retract the study. Would you consider that highly respected peer reviewed journal to have credibility?
It is dangerous to rely on any single source of information.
"Of course, if there is only one pro-life candidate and the church is staunchly pro-life, we both know which candidate they’ll want you to vote for, but they still have to emphasize the issue, not the candidate."
And the actually practical difference is what exactly? Sure they obeyed the letter of the law. But they sure as hell violated the intent.
"I have no doubt that other members of other, equally questionable "religions" are watching this, and that what they feel they can or cannot get away with is going to be strongly influenced by what happens here."
If you don't want this to happen then you need to get rid of the special priveledges given to religions. Because I don't really know how the Jedi religion is any more questionable than the Christian or Islamic religion. Once you open the door for one of them, you have opened the door for all of them.
"Because it admits fault where there is none, sets a precedent, and generally encourages this sort of behavior."
Where exactly is the evidence that the HR representative admitted fault or even bothered to apologize? The quote from the alleged apology note is no apology. It is just a statement of official policy. Just like the voice on the telephone insisting that your call is important after you have been on hold for 47 minutes.
"Hard enough to drag and heat up but not hard enough to stop the car despite the driver exerting all his strength on them."
More likely he partially applied the brakes over a long period with no intent of stopping. Just because his brakes were hot does not mean he applied them at full force. In any case, if his car was operating at wide open throttle his car had plenty of vacuum. So if he couldn't stop it was because he didn't want to or because he was an idiot.
"Boeing would not have made a pilot have to guess at how to turn an engine off (people with older cars, it's no longer a matter of turning a key)."
Toyota doesn't either. Every new car they sell comes with something called a manual. This manual contains useful information about the vehicle. Such as how to turn it the fuck off.
In any case, considering the debacle that is the 787, I wouldn't take engineering lessons from the Boeing of today.
Okay. I am going to assume that you are merely extremely ignorant. The reason for the low public health risk is vaccines and their heavy use.
"Even un-immunized the risks of most sicknesses are quite low to cause any real damage. Measles, Mumps and Rubella generally are low-mortality when generally speaking."
Ever hear of the flu? You know, that seasonal illness that is estimated to kill about about 36K a year. I think you would consider the flu to be a rather low mortality and low risk disease. I wonder what the dead think. That doesn't count the lucky ones who just got to be hospitalized.
For measles: One in 1000 cases of measles results in encephalitis, with a high rate of permanent neurological complications in those who survive. Approximately five percent develop pneumonia. The fatality rate is between one and three per 1000 cases. Without vaccination most people would catch it. What's a couple million cases a year times a few per thousand....
"Yeah, a few kids might be really sick, but if treatment is quick enough, it is easy to contain and cure."
"But that doesn't make sense - why is this guy entitled to more money just because of where he was born?"
Perhaps you missed the part about ILLEGAL immigrants? His job is being threatened by people breaking the law. The citizens of a country are entitled to set the laws that run a country within reason.
I'm sorry but it's not reasonable to disrupt society and good well paying stable jobs to cater to illegal immigrants and cheap consumers and employers (both of which are breaking the law by hiring illegals). The race to the bottom does not help a country dependent on the middle class. Because everyone can be replaced by someone willing to take less, even you.
Of course, in my experience, people who share your attitude often have jobs with artificial barriers preventing their loss to low paid workers....
"On this issue, however, I have sent the EFF form in to them about 20 times and have not once received a response."
And you were expecting a response to a form letter why? I'm sure an aide put a tick mark in the appropriate column, assuming they even know about the issue.
"I take that back, the first time I sent it, one of them responded with an email about health care."
So you actually did get a response. Obviously the aide sent the wrong form letter but heck, what's one form letter for another. If you want any chance at a more personalized response then you need to send a personalized letter.
"...and the recent spate of Tea Parties and similar movements aren't civic participation?"
No they aren't. The key here is "civic", implying a large group of informed, educated and motivated citizens actively involved in government. The tea party members are largely uneducated, uniformed anti-government populists who are very good at saying "no" and "x is bad" and want to apply simple solutions to complex problems. They are precisely the type of group that will make things WORSE because they are easily manipulated.
Slashdot Mirror
"As a small business owner, I think you are asking an awful lot."
Not really. There is an everify system available to employers. If there is a problem with a SSN the SSA will send a letter. It's not perfect but most employers have a very good idea of the status of their workers. Or if they don't, they very likely chose not to.
I frankly can't believe people when they say they made a good faith effort due to the large number of employers who don't. It sucks for the honest people who don't discriminate and follow the rules. Unfortunately not many of them speak up.
"Tell us what you want us to do, and we'll do it, but don't get upset when employees figure out how to circumvent the system."
Why shouldn't we get upset?
Case in point, Arizona has had a law on the books requiring everify since 2008. Business groups have repeatedly sued to try to block it. It's pretty obvious that business doesn't want to follow the law.
"...this is not the fault of an airline having mis-judged its margins but an unprecedented restriction on normal business. I think that there is a good case, in moral terms, for at least having the EU refund the costs brought on by passenger rights legislation."
I disagree 100%. Airspace has been closed before due to volcanic ash. It has been closed for extended periods for other events. Iceland is a volcanic island and the prevailing winds blow toward Europe. The airlines could have insured against this event.
The airlines chose not to prepare for a rare event and it bit them in the ass. They knew the rules of the game upfront. I see no reason to reward them for failure.
"...the tired mantra of blaming the Americans for the world's ills is getting very old."
That's odd, but I see no evidence of this. The US did in fact kill alot of people for no good reason beyond occupying a country.
"We need a new 'Godwin's Rule' to say the argument is over when people start jumping on this bandwagon."
Why? So you don't have to be bothered by your conscience? I hate to break it to you but when our actions (or inaction) cause bad things in the world, we are responsible for them.
"No in companies, surfing porn can and often gets you fired. In Government doing the same just gets you transferred to the next site/department."
I really wish that people would stop with this idea that somehow corporations are magically different than government. I've been in very large corporations where surfing porn was perfectly acceptable and in government offices where doing so would result in termination. It's all about the culture of the organization-if supported or enabled by management it will happen. Likewise, if management doesn't want it to happen, it won't. The fact that it is a private or government organization is really irrelevant.
"It is just too f'n hard to fire people in government."
Not really. All it requires is the desire and documentation. Pretty much the same thing any intelligent private organization will do in an attempt to prevent a lawsuit. The real problem is that most managers are lazy and unwilling to do their job. The great thing about having lots of rules and regulations is that it is easy to find violations (you don't thing the employee handbook is there to help the employee do you?).
"When a hospital does this, they call it triage, and there is no outrage."
It's also based on sound data and results (aka science). And when it fails people tend to sue and win large amounts of money. I think you might call that outrage.
"If we take as given that resources are finite, then not every case of juvenile delinquency can get the full service treatment, so we must find a way to allocate resources efficiently. The point of this analysis is to estimate which cases need more intervention, and which need less."
In triage, all patients do eventually get treatment if they need it. So the two are not the same. Why exactly we need a computer to do what humans have been always been doing is unclear to me. It sounds like a waste of resources as you need more data (computers don't do well with fuzzy logic), it needs to be in a computer useful form (people have to input it/gather it) and you still need humans to verify the accuracy.
"The point of using computer systems is to dig through bias and perceptions and get to a root cause."
This is the failure in your assumption. This system won't look at the root cause. It will be used to determine who can be "salvaged" rather than can the money be better spent elsewhere. The biases and perceptions will just be programmed into the computer so the results will have an air of impartiality.
"That's not the case. The taser is meant to displace the police baton and/or pepper spray. It is not meant to be used in situations where deadly force is justifiable."
That's odd. Because the taser was sold as an alternative to a firearm not the baton or pepper spray. I doubt you will find many police agencies admit otherwise. Or at least you won't find them advertising the fact. Because it would probably upset alot of people.
I certainly agree that it has replaced the baton and pepper spray. There might be a case for the former. There is no good reason for the latter.
"The user base would drop ridiculously fast."
Then charging a monthly fee would be an excellent idea.
"Imagine if other social network sites charged to be used."
One can dream.
"So, what do you do in a car without a starter key?"
Apply the brakes and stop the car. Then you press the start button. Very similar to the way you turn the car off when you are finished driving it. Owner manuals do exist for a reason.
"How about one where the transmission is computer-controlled so you can't shift to neutral at high speeds?"
Apply the brakes and stop the car. Then shift into neutral. I am not aware of any car that prevents you from shifting into neutral at high speed. If you find one, don't buy it.
"I don't know just what makes you think vaccination remains voluntary...you can barely get away with attending school if you don't have vaccinations. My mom thought she didn't like them and had to use some form to pretend she held a 'religious objection' to the required vaccines."
The poster thinks they are voluntary because you didn't have to get them. That's the definition of voluntary.
People like your mom are the reason that vaccination should be mandatory. She is endangering the lives of her children and others because of her ignorance.
"If I were writing the rules, public education would include the biology of sex and conception as well as hygiene, but with a light warning, something along the lines of "We've taught you the mechanics, health risks, how to manage that, but we can't teach you how to manage the emotional and psychological issues that some people find go along with sex."
You do realize that those ARE THE RULES?!?! At least in any fact (reality) based sex education course taught in that last thirty plus years in the US. Your suggestion was the well established well studied well documented standard program when I attended school decades ago. But then the conservatives and religious right never let the facts get in the way of their beliefs when it comes to sex.
"Get the schools out of our religion..."
The schools aren't in your religion. Your religion is in the schools.
"I'm tired of the school system teaching their versions of morals and sexuality to children. I want to see parents teach their children about morals and sexuality."
Yeah, good information coupled with themes of integrity, equality and reason are antithetical to religion. If you wish to continue to instill your disinformation and biases you will have to do it at home.
"When did the State become the parent and the parent become nothing more than a provider of food, clothing, and shelter for their child?"
When the parents stopped doing it. Do you seriously think that teachers WANT to be social workers? They want to teach the subjects they were hired to teach. It's the primary reason I haven't become a teacher.
"...not to provide step by step instructions on how to have sex, tell them how to avoid the "side effects" of sex (pregnancy, STDs), and then hand out sample condoms—that's the job of their parents!"
I hate to break this to you but students don't need instructions on how to have sex. It's hardwired in our biology. They do need help to avoid the negative consequences. Because abstinence doesn't work. It is a school issue because disease transmission and teen pregnancy is a public health matter. And expensive. If those same people who didn't want the schools and government involved in sex education didn't use government money and programs to mitigate the results of their lack of education and poor choices, you would have a point. Put simply, the vast majority of people opposed to sex education are hypocrites.
"We are are not paying them to snap photos of things and make them public."
Not directly. But those photos become part of the police file and can be accessed by the public.
"The only possible claim that USAF had to a separate identity... strategic airpower, IE hitting targets far away and distant from troops on the battlefield... became moot in the age of ballistic and cruise missiles, which are launched... here it is again... by guys on the ground."
And as the Navy is based on the ground then they should be part of the the army, yes? Because they don't live on the sea. Sure they spend a few months there but it is still only temporary. Likewise, in theory there is no real need to separate the Marines from the Navy or the Army.
The reason for the separation is a combination of tradition and the practical. If you incorporate the Marines into the Navy or the Army, you will cease to have an effective marine corps. The navy wants ships, not grunts. If you incorporate the Airforce into the Army (and other branches) you will cease to have an effective strategic air force for the same reasons. They will take the missions they want and ignore and/or damage the missions they don't think are important.
"Actually, you should ask your doctor what his "cash price" is. Many doctors will give you a giant discount if you pay cash, ..."
And the typical response is "What is the name of your insurance company". Seriously. Most staff can't comprehend the concept of patient paying in cash (doctors don't deal with payment issues). And their "discount" when you finally get through to them is "list price".
"Established journals (peer reviewed or not as appropriate to the field) and/or news sources relative to the field. Acknowledged experts within the field. Acknowledged texts relative to the field."
And how do you know that these things have credibility on a specific subject covered by a paper? Sure they may have credibility in the aggregate but that is rarely what we are interested in. And how does someone with little to no knowledge of the field tell the difference?
"If Wikipedia has any credibility at all, it's because it has cribbed from these sources (among many others)."
Precisely the point. Journals are only as credible as the people who review the articles and the people who submit them. The same with texts. And experts. The Lancet published a paper by Wakefield et al in 1998. In 2004, ten of the 13 authors retracted their support, yet it took another six years for the Lancet to retract the study. Would you consider that highly respected peer reviewed journal to have credibility?
It is dangerous to rely on any single source of information.
"I think you’re a little bit mistaken on this one. Churches have to be careful about their political stance or they do risk losing non-profit status."
No he isn't. Churches have deliberately violated this law to force the issue. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5198068&page=1
It has not been enforced. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30391105/
So on paper it is a rule. In real life, not so much.
"Of course, if there is only one pro-life candidate and the church is staunchly pro-life, we both know which candidate they’ll want you to vote for, but they still have to emphasize the issue, not the candidate."
And the actually practical difference is what exactly? Sure they obeyed the letter of the law. But they sure as hell violated the intent.
"I have no doubt that other members of other, equally questionable "religions" are watching this, and that what they feel they can or cannot get away with is going to be strongly influenced by what happens here."
If you don't want this to happen then you need to get rid of the special priveledges given to religions. Because I don't really know how the Jedi religion is any more questionable than the Christian or Islamic religion. Once you open the door for one of them, you have opened the door for all of them.
"Because it admits fault where there is none, sets a precedent, and generally encourages this sort of behavior."
Where exactly is the evidence that the HR representative admitted fault or even bothered to apologize? The quote from the alleged apology note is no apology. It is just a statement of official policy. Just like the voice on the telephone insisting that your call is important after you have been on hold for 47 minutes.
"Hard enough to drag and heat up but not hard enough to stop the car despite the driver exerting all his strength on them."
More likely he partially applied the brakes over a long period with no intent of stopping. Just because his brakes were hot does not mean he applied them at full force. In any case, if his car was operating at wide open throttle his car had plenty of vacuum. So if he couldn't stop it was because he didn't want to or because he was an idiot.
"Boeing would not have made a pilot have to guess at how to turn an engine off (people with older cars, it's no longer a matter of turning a key)."
Toyota doesn't either. Every new car they sell comes with something called a manual. This manual contains useful information about the vehicle. Such as how to turn it the fuck off.
In any case, considering the debacle that is the 787, I wouldn't take engineering lessons from the Boeing of today.
"What public health risk is there really?"
You are kidding, right? Right?
Okay. I am going to assume that you are merely extremely ignorant. The reason for the low public health risk is vaccines and their heavy use.
"Even un-immunized the risks of most sicknesses are quite low to cause any real damage. Measles, Mumps and Rubella generally are low-mortality when generally speaking."
Ever hear of the flu? You know, that seasonal illness that is estimated to kill about about 36K a year. I think you would consider the flu to be a rather low mortality and low risk disease. I wonder what the dead think. That doesn't count the lucky ones who just got to be hospitalized.
For measles: One in 1000 cases of measles results in encephalitis, with a high rate of permanent neurological complications in those who survive. Approximately five percent develop pneumonia. The fatality rate is between one and three per 1000 cases. Without vaccination most people would catch it. What's a couple million cases a year times a few per thousand....
"Yeah, a few kids might be really sick, but if treatment is quick enough, it is easy to contain and cure."
See above.
"But that doesn't make sense - why is this guy entitled to more money just because of where he was born?"
Perhaps you missed the part about ILLEGAL immigrants? His job is being threatened by people breaking the law. The citizens of a country are entitled to set the laws that run a country within reason.
I'm sorry but it's not reasonable to disrupt society and good well paying stable jobs to cater to illegal immigrants and cheap consumers and employers (both of which are breaking the law by hiring illegals). The race to the bottom does not help a country dependent on the middle class. Because everyone can be replaced by someone willing to take less, even you.
Of course, in my experience, people who share your attitude often have jobs with artificial barriers preventing their loss to low paid workers....
"On this issue, however, I have sent the EFF form in to them about 20 times and have not once received a response."
And you were expecting a response to a form letter why? I'm sure an aide put a tick mark in the appropriate column, assuming they even know about the issue.
"I take that back, the first time I sent it, one of them responded with an email about health care."
So you actually did get a response. Obviously the aide sent the wrong form letter but heck, what's one form letter for another. If you want any chance at a more personalized response then you need to send a personalized letter.
"...and the recent spate of Tea Parties and similar movements aren't civic participation?"
No they aren't. The key here is "civic", implying a large group of informed, educated and motivated citizens actively involved in government. The tea party members are largely uneducated, uniformed anti-government populists who are very good at saying "no" and "x is bad" and want to apply simple solutions to complex problems. They are precisely the type of group that will make things WORSE because they are easily manipulated.