This seems like it could spur a whole new surge of Repetitives Stress Injuries. My hands used to hurt enough just from using a regular control pad.....
I've been thinking of this whole "they'll control my car in the future" thing for a while - this debate has been coming as more and more cars become heavily computer integrated. What I would like is a variable speed limit. Since they have computers that talk to the computer in my car, they'll know how safely I've been driving and how well I can handle th car in a variety of evironmental conditions.
I can see a day when this kind of tech is used to slow down a car whose driver is exceeding their historical capabilities. The system should be clear about when the driver is in a 'training mode' condition - i.e. the car system is taking over to soem degree and limiting their speeds. There is a fuzzy edge for them to push that's mediated via nueral net trained to their driving record. This allows them to become a better driver in a range of conditions, and also removes the need for 'speed limits' since the limit would be the users on driving record. The more hours you've logged on the better a driver you'll be and your capabilities to drive will relect that. There will be rebuking from Police Officer unions as they're jobs change, but that's to be expected.
I'm hoping that this incorporation of technology also comes with BUILDING TRAFFIC SIGNALS INTO THE CAR'S DASHBOARD. Seriously, that has been a long time coming in this arena. A central server can mediate people's traffic signals at an intersection, allowing a smoother flow of traffic. Theoretically the system should be able to take complete control of my car and guide it through the intersection at what ever speed necessary.
This will freak people out at first because they'll fear suceeding their control, until they trust the system. Their fears will be mitigated by the suggetion that the process system will prevent driving accidents by intoxicated or otherwise inadequate drivers. Driving accidents/harm will move from unconscious violence (a person causes another harm because they don't value the other enough to make smart decisions about themselves) to malicious violence (a person hacks the system with the intention of causing direct harm to another). The first scenario is a systemic illness that we all work at - the latter scenario is a matter of authorities, good guys & bad guys, other easy human metaphors. I feel most people will choose the latter.
Beyond that? "Driving" somewhere where largely involve setting keypoints in a route and the servers will figure out a route based on preferences like 'scenic,' 'never beent hat way before,' 'fastest,' 'withing seepd range x-y,' or other criteria. 'Cars' will change to become more pleasure oriented - we've already seen the beginnings of it with video consoles built into headrests. Mass transportationwill operate the same, but you'll have to become better with personal scheduling to arrange route timings with the server that meet your needs. A variety of privatized 'mass transit' services will appear to suit various lifestyle and ultimately mass transit, as a public institution, will organize into a comglomeration of mostly-independent systems. The routes won't quite meet everyone's needs that those on the fringe will have to adapt - as always.
The rest of these tracks go off in other directions.....
Yea it's a humorous use of one's time - but is there anything coming of this work? Is the only benefit to making your processor run faster at home the bragging rights?
A sex offender may pose as a delivery person, service worker, or any other of the range of jobs that need to be performed by those not affiliated with the school.
Not that I'm in favor of this system at the moment. It seems like a waste of money compared to my perceived threat of the children who are being locked up at home, and the money that could go into providing better education (supporting things other than computer upgrades!) I didn't think most abductions happened in the school...
Sounds like a bunch of people pretending they can own anything..... All of this can be taken back to allodial land rights, fees, and soverign power. It's all imaginary - based on bully tactics and fear. Look into the Hopi water rights case for more along this line.
Example: I give you a gold nugget and make you believe that I still own it. You feel you have to give it back to me because you're afraid that if you don't I'll beat you up. You delude yourself into believing that when you give me back your (my) gold nugget, you have to give me something else as well. This means that you have to make a claim over something else you didn't own (another natural resource) - which makes you feel powerful. (let alone the degerate loop that occurs when you vicariously enjoy the feeling I get when beating you up in the same way that you beat up others!)
Perhaps this starts with 'Gift Law,' which is an arcane and archaic topic for any culture. My thought is is partial inspired by "OOGG the Caveman" in this comment graph.
Lets go back to a time when we don't this language, we just have human-type creatures roaming about eating the reserves of nature and such. I pluck a fruit from a tree and eat it. Seems like a good thing, all the other creatures do it.
One day I see another creature that looks like me, but it is weak and thin. I know that once I didn't eat food for a very long time and I got like that. I give it some of the food that I have in my hand. Later I see the same creature again and it is healthy and has gathered much food. If that creature gives some of its food to me then a precedent is set. Even if it doesn't, we both hold the memory of the time I gave it food. Am I responsible for, or involved in, the presence of all of that food?
Perhaps building from there, perhaps not; I know how to find feathers that are different from those where I normally roam. No other creature seems to have these feathers. I give some of these feathers to another creatuere, and it puts them in its hair. Lots of other creatures now come around this one, and it leads them in finding food and doing other things. But the feathers begin to fade and weather, and when that happens the other creatures stop following that one. Does it go with that? Does it come back to me again? Do I give it more feathers? What if it brings food with it? What if it threatens me with injury to give it more feathers, or brings other creatures with it to threaten me. Maybe they don't realize I give the other one the feathers.
Does any of the creatures own the feathers? Anyone could walk far and wide enough to find them - does anyone control them? If I give feathers to another can I take them back? If another walks around with feathers in their hair all the time, can they take feathers from another who has feathers by the area where it sleeps?
And what about the bird who grew the feathers from its body?
At some point we can ask "why do feathers grow?" and stir up the big pitch pots, but for the moment we're still talking about where resources come from, how do we make others believe they own them, and how we represent those resources (water, oil) with other resources (paper) by proxy.
All of this also have tie-ins to other recent news stories about people claiming ownership of land on the moon, and trying to sell that 'property.' Can people actually own anything? What makes us think we can - the fact that we can hold it? point to it? describe it in more detail than anyone or anything else? Does a trout know more about water than we do? It can swim upstream and up waterfalls 'against' the energy of gravity and the current with less mechanical energy then our physics ascribes to it. If the trout know more than we do about water - do they own water?
Don't want to sound like flamebait, but it seems to me like lots of OSS projects just copy things that others (Apple, even MS) invented. This, the whole Windows L&F, Mono.
Huh, yea, imagine that - all this copying on an OS (linux) that was COPIED FROM UNIX.
OSS has a real serious hurdle in producing something novel because began it's life as a kind of clone.
But perhaps there are good examples already, and I'm simply not aware of them.
Perhaps a bit industrial for the average apartment renter, but for those who've decided to buy a long-term dwelling modular storage systems such as those offered by Triton Products are a god-send.
Geek-caveat - their web site is horrid, terrible and nasty. But they do have a minor catalog here. I've been quite happy with the ultra-configurable system they've designed.
Privitasation is all well and good, but structure (read: metaphor) have always receded humans ventures into any new realm. Without metaphor, we have no basis to understand the new experience.
The exploration of space does involve every person, even those who think it doesn't need to be explored or developed, since it involves the understanding of a new area of the human experience.
If nothing else, modern government should/will be inherently edgy of simply letting corporatons run free into space development. Many of the freedoms and social enlightenment that we've come to know in the last 300 year is fairly recent - to let private corporations run free in space would be akin to 'going backward' because historical precedence would give corps. sovereign control over what they stake claim to (under salvage and high seas 'laws'). Not exactly a step forward.
Cultural Property laws will take the lead here - once we develop them further! Those who want to move humans into space will have to be more broad-sighted than these posts let on.
After all, astrologers and their ilk have never let facts, figures or even reality get in the way before now
...and it seems that neither do you - but perhaps "now" you will? Because, 'as we know' (goofy expert emphasis added) rigorous scientific analysis has shownt aht small gravitic shifts have no effect on any aspectof human life.
Yea, it's interface is also freaky due to the lack of interface conventions. I'll let steve be an Interface Nazi if it prevents nightmares like QCad from happening.
All due respect to the QCad developers - but you have to make better documentation, or have a big splash page warning users that your interfaceface conventions are severely different than most other apps they've ever used.
...and my first thought was that such unaesthetic lights sucks no matter the color. So any change in it (even from one funky emanation to the next) is, at least, a change - and therefore seems better.
Caveats, though, as this comes from someone who has a prescription to wear polarized (not shaded) 'sunglasses' at night.
What could make sense is to have musicians set up affiliate programs (like Amazon) that pay the fan a commission if a link on a fan's site leads to a sale.
How is that different than what the original poster proposed. The musician pays a commision of 50 cents to the 'referrer' - the only difference is that the downloader gets the music from the 'referrer' directly. This would save the musician on hosting costs - something they may be rather keen on.
it coudl be implemented both ways. Higher commissions could be paid when the 'referrer' themselves serves the content. If the musician preferred, any downloads requests to the 'referrer' could use them truely as a referrer, pointing the downloader back to the musicians source content. Perhaps the referrer in that case would only receive a 15 cent commision, etc.
In short - I like it. It also allows us to hook up our friends. The individual user can also be a marketer as well as distributor. Where do I sign on?
With hard-core traders finding more ingenius ways of masking their identity online, this 'list' may just turn into a popularity contest. "Who can get on it"
In addition to all the other intelligent posts against your ridiculous opinion, I've actually performed sccientific studies that show that soem of these practices can benefit a person in pyshiological and psychological ways.
Even simple relaxation exercise, properly bounded, can altera person's brainwave character. I don't even care if you try to call it auto-suggestion. Especially in the work-place, if it works - it works.
....a person can truely be known by that which they hate. Instead of making your personal insecurities a matter of public discourse you might choose to explore them yourself, instead. Unless you're consciously blocking things so much that you sub-conscious has no choice but to force a public debacle.
In recent report, Swiss researchers avocated the use of "a good hash" in computer security matters. Quoted one researcher, David Dittrich; "...you can escalate your privilege and slowly move your way through the network. If you can get your hands on the hash, then game over." [emphasis added]
With the recent wave of DMT experimentation in Silicon Valley, CA, US, governemnt agents are on the alert. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcorft may have stated "As computer specialists may not choose to consume psychoactive parts of nature, our Persecution Roadmap is unlikely to change.... unfortunately"
At the time of writing, the Swiss government was on Swatch Internet Time, and could not be coordinated with for comment.
----If that were the case, anti-gravity would have been discovered years ago.
You're only assuming that it wasn't actually discovered years ago, of course. We wouldn't necessarily know.
Reading into the work fo T. Townsend Brown will liekly set anyone on the right track in this area. Regardless of what is to be said about brown's work (and the subsequent work of Hutchinson) theres enough scientific bric-a-brac to show that a bit more is happening with electricity and gravity than we're applying our brains toward.
Until they can overcome this need to have an external power unit that outweighs the "lifter" by a factor of at least a couple of hundred to one, this will not be a practical technology. Never mind the need for invisible tether strings for navigational control.
unless, you can scale a lifter to carry sensors to mars, and bead energy to it via orbital collectors..... and that's what we're getting toward here.
Reading the articles further will elaborate ont his topic in much more detail
And as we all know - a gigabyte is how much it takes to store....... oh wait..
That's the thing - what can be done with 100 kb is a relative matter. File formats are always changing, applications bloat, video can be compressed. Answering quetions like "how much hard drive space do I need" is a question with many, many contributing factors. Perhaps with MP3s as music and mpeg and video 'standards' we are getting closer to a common language - since most everyone (in a first world nation =P ) is familiar with AV recordings.
...and let's remember that with PHP and MySQL I can write 1MB of dynamic interface code (+ graphics) that can interface 1GB of ecological/nuclear/etc data. Perhaps there is some kind of categorization of information efficiency, or usage?
In 500 years, many of the arts we call science will be viewed as we regard alchemy today.
And when that time comes there will be new words and terms for the things done in that age. People will say "just because our ancestors didi things that alters quantum coherence domains doesn't mean they were Phasespace Engineers."
The arts we're doing today are the kernals of science tomorrow.
"I thought: `Oh, my God! This is something. This isn't just a light bounce,' " recalled the official, G. Scott Hubbard, the director of the Ames Research Center at NASA and also a member of the independent board investigating the disaster. [emphasis added]
pardon me, but doesn't his position as director of Ames Research disqualify him as a candidate for an independant board? This foam study great and interesting, but I can't see how a genuine inquiry into this matter can occur without a true 3rd party.
Slashdot Mirror
This seems like it could spur a whole new surge of Repetitives Stress Injuries. My hands used to hurt enough just from using a regular control pad.....
-shpoffo
I've been thinking of this whole "they'll control my car in the future" thing for a while - this debate has been coming as more and more cars become heavily computer integrated. What I would like is a variable speed limit. Since they have computers that talk to the computer in my car, they'll know how safely I've been driving and how well I can handle th car in a variety of evironmental conditions.
I can see a day when this kind of tech is used to slow down a car whose driver is exceeding their historical capabilities. The system should be clear about when the driver is in a 'training mode' condition - i.e. the car system is taking over to soem degree and limiting their speeds. There is a fuzzy edge for them to push that's mediated via nueral net trained to their driving record. This allows them to become a better driver in a range of conditions, and also removes the need for 'speed limits' since the limit would be the users on driving record. The more hours you've logged on the better a driver you'll be and your capabilities to drive will relect that. There will be rebuking from Police Officer unions as they're jobs change, but that's to be expected.
I'm hoping that this incorporation of technology also comes with BUILDING TRAFFIC SIGNALS INTO THE CAR'S DASHBOARD. Seriously, that has been a long time coming in this arena. A central server can mediate people's traffic signals at an intersection, allowing a smoother flow of traffic. Theoretically the system should be able to take complete control of my car and guide it through the intersection at what ever speed necessary.
This will freak people out at first because they'll fear suceeding their control, until they trust the system. Their fears will be mitigated by the suggetion that the process system will prevent driving accidents by intoxicated or otherwise inadequate drivers. Driving accidents/harm will move from unconscious violence (a person causes another harm because they don't value the other enough to make smart decisions about themselves) to malicious violence (a person hacks the system with the intention of causing direct harm to another). The first scenario is a systemic illness that we all work at - the latter scenario is a matter of authorities, good guys & bad guys, other easy human metaphors. I feel most people will choose the latter.
Beyond that? "Driving" somewhere where largely involve setting keypoints in a route and the servers will figure out a route based on preferences like 'scenic,' 'never beent hat way before,' 'fastest,' 'withing seepd range x-y,' or other criteria. 'Cars' will change to become more pleasure oriented - we've already seen the beginnings of it with video consoles built into headrests. Mass transportationwill operate the same, but you'll have to become better with personal scheduling to arrange route timings with the server that meet your needs. A variety of privatized 'mass transit' services will appear to suit various lifestyle and ultimately mass transit, as a public institution, will organize into a comglomeration of mostly-independent systems. The routes won't quite meet everyone's needs that those on the fringe will have to adapt - as always.
The rest of these tracks go off in other directions.....
-shpoffo
bottled water? THere is no regulation in the U.S. on the quality of bottled water. Check out the Environmental Working Group for more information.
-shpoffo
The best bags I've seen are made by Waterfield
-shpoffo
Yea it's a humorous use of one's time - but is there anything coming of this work? Is the only benefit to making your processor run faster at home the bragging rights?
-shpoffo
A sex offender may pose as a delivery person, service worker, or any other of the range of jobs that need to be performed by those not affiliated with the school.
Not that I'm in favor of this system at the moment. It seems like a waste of money compared to my perceived threat of the children who are being locked up at home, and the money that could go into providing better education (supporting things other than computer upgrades!) I didn't think most abductions happened in the school...
-shpoffo
Sounds like a bunch of people pretending they can own anything..... All of this can be taken back to allodial land rights, fees, and soverign power. It's all imaginary - based on bully tactics and fear. Look into the Hopi water rights case for more along this line.
Example: I give you a gold nugget and make you believe that I still own it. You feel you have to give it back to me because you're afraid that if you don't I'll beat you up. You delude yourself into believing that when you give me back your (my) gold nugget, you have to give me something else as well. This means that you have to make a claim over something else you didn't own (another natural resource) - which makes you feel powerful. (let alone the degerate loop that occurs when you vicariously enjoy the feeling I get when beating you up in the same way that you beat up others!)
Perhaps this starts with 'Gift Law,' which is an arcane and archaic topic for any culture. My thought is is partial inspired by "OOGG the Caveman" in this comment graph.
Lets go back to a time when we don't this language, we just have human-type creatures roaming about eating the reserves of nature and such. I pluck a fruit from a tree and eat it. Seems like a good thing, all the other creatures do it.
One day I see another creature that looks like me, but it is weak and thin. I know that once I didn't eat food for a very long time and I got like that. I give it some of the food that I have in my hand. Later I see the same creature again and it is healthy and has gathered much food. If that creature gives some of its food to me then a precedent is set. Even if it doesn't, we both hold the memory of the time I gave it food. Am I responsible for, or involved in, the presence of all of that food?
Perhaps building from there, perhaps not; I know how to find feathers that are different from those where I normally roam. No other creature seems to have these feathers. I give some of these feathers to another creatuere, and it puts them in its hair. Lots of other creatures now come around this one, and it leads them in finding food and doing other things. But the feathers begin to fade and weather, and when that happens the other creatures stop following that one. Does it go with that? Does it come back to me again? Do I give it more feathers? What if it brings food with it? What if it threatens me with injury to give it more feathers, or brings other creatures with it to threaten me. Maybe they don't realize I give the other one the feathers.
Does any of the creatures own the feathers? Anyone could walk far and wide enough to find them - does anyone control them? If I give feathers to another can I take them back? If another walks around with feathers in their hair all the time, can they take feathers from another who has feathers by the area where it sleeps?
And what about the bird who grew the feathers from its body?
At some point we can ask "why do feathers grow?" and stir up the big pitch pots, but for the moment we're still talking about where resources come from, how do we make others believe they own them, and how we represent those resources (water, oil) with other resources (paper) by proxy.
All of this also have tie-ins to other recent news stories about people claiming ownership of land on the moon, and trying to sell that 'property.' Can people actually own anything? What makes us think we can - the fact that we can hold it? point to it? describe it in more detail than anyone or anything else? Does a trout know more about water than we do? It can swim upstream and up waterfalls 'against' the energy of gravity and the current with less mechanical energy then our physics ascribes to it. If the trout know more than we do about water - do they own water?
-shpoffo
Wow, DMs are getting soft, it seems..... ; )
-shpoffo
Don't want to sound like flamebait, but it seems to me like lots of OSS projects just copy things that others (Apple, even MS) invented. This, the whole Windows L&F, Mono.
Huh, yea, imagine that - all this copying on an OS (linux) that was COPIED FROM UNIX.
OSS has a real serious hurdle in producing something novel because began it's life as a kind of clone.
But perhaps there are good examples already, and I'm simply not aware of them.
-shpoffo
Perhaps a bit industrial for the average apartment renter, but for those who've decided to buy a long-term dwelling modular storage systems such as those offered by Triton Products are a god-send.
Geek-caveat - their web site is horrid, terrible and nasty. But they do have a minor catalog here. I've been quite happy with the ultra-configurable system they've designed.
-shpoffo
The trolls must really be sleeping in today for a BSD story to go by this long without some kind of semi-creative "*BSD is Dying" post.
'course, OS X lives on.....
-shpoffo
luckily it is a week from now - which is longer than the whimsical 'just curious' attention span (I attribute) to most ./'ers
-shpoffo
Privitasation is all well and good, but structure (read: metaphor) have always receded humans ventures into any new realm. Without metaphor, we have no basis to understand the new experience.
The exploration of space does involve every person, even those who think it doesn't need to be explored or developed, since it involves the understanding of a new area of the human experience.
If nothing else, modern government should/will be inherently edgy of simply letting corporatons run free into space development. Many of the freedoms and social enlightenment that we've come to know in the last 300 year is fairly recent - to let private corporations run free in space would be akin to 'going backward' because historical precedence would give corps. sovereign control over what they stake claim to (under salvage and high seas 'laws'). Not exactly a step forward.
Cultural Property laws will take the lead here - once we develop them further! Those who want to move humans into space will have to be more broad-sighted than these posts let on.
-shpoffo
After all, astrologers and their ilk have never let facts, figures or even reality get in the way before now
...and it seems that neither do you - but perhaps "now" you will? Because, 'as we know' (goofy expert emphasis added) rigorous scientific analysis has shownt aht small gravitic shifts have no effect on any aspectof human life.
pardon my sarcasm
-shpoffo
Yea, it's interface is also freaky due to the lack of interface conventions. I'll let steve be an Interface Nazi if it prevents nightmares like QCad from happening.
All due respect to the QCad developers - but you have to make better documentation, or have a big splash page warning users that your interfaceface conventions are severely different than most other apps they've ever used.
-shpoffo
...and my first thought was that such unaesthetic lights sucks no matter the color. So any change in it (even from one funky emanation to the next) is, at least, a change - and therefore seems better.
Caveats, though, as this comes from someone who has a prescription to wear polarized (not shaded) 'sunglasses' at night.
-The Lorax (shpoffo)
What could make sense is to have musicians set up affiliate programs (like Amazon) that pay the fan a commission if a link on a fan's site leads to a sale.
How is that different than what the original poster proposed. The musician pays a commision of 50 cents to the 'referrer' - the only difference is that the downloader gets the music from the 'referrer' directly. This would save the musician on hosting costs - something they may be rather keen on.
it coudl be implemented both ways. Higher commissions could be paid when the 'referrer' themselves serves the content. If the musician preferred, any downloads requests to the 'referrer' could use them truely as a referrer, pointing the downloader back to the musicians source content. Perhaps the referrer in that case would only receive a 15 cent commision, etc.
In short - I like it. It also allows us to hook up our friends. The individual user can also be a marketer as well as distributor. Where do I sign on?
-shpoffo
With hard-core traders finding more ingenius ways of masking their identity online, this 'list' may just turn into a popularity contest. "Who can get on it"
-shpoffo
In addition to all the other intelligent posts against your ridiculous opinion, I've actually performed sccientific studies that show that soem of these practices can benefit a person in pyshiological and psychological ways.
Even simple relaxation exercise, properly bounded, can altera person's brainwave character. I don't even care if you try to call it auto-suggestion. Especially in the work-place, if it works - it works.
....a person can truely be known by that which they hate. Instead of making your personal insecurities a matter of public discourse you might choose to explore them yourself, instead. Unless you're consciously blocking things so much that you sub-conscious has no choice but to force a public debacle.
-shpoffo
In recent report, Swiss researchers avocated the use of "a good hash" in computer security matters. Quoted one researcher, David Dittrich; "...you can escalate your privilege and slowly move your way through the network. If you can get your hands on the hash, then game over." [emphasis added]
With the recent wave of DMT experimentation in Silicon Valley, CA, US, governemnt agents are on the alert. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcorft may have stated "As computer specialists may not choose to consume psychoactive parts of nature, our Persecution Roadmap is unlikely to change.... unfortunately"
At the time of writing, the Swiss government was on Swatch Internet Time, and could not be coordinated with for comment.
----If that were the case, anti-gravity would have been discovered years ago.
You're only assuming that it wasn't actually discovered years ago, of course. We wouldn't necessarily know.
Reading into the work fo T. Townsend Brown will liekly set anyone on the right track in this area. Regardless of what is to be said about brown's work (and the subsequent work of Hutchinson) theres enough scientific bric-a-brac to show that a bit more is happening with electricity and gravity than we're applying our brains toward.
-shpoffo
Until they can overcome this need to have an external power unit that outweighs the "lifter" by a factor of at least a couple of hundred to one, this will not be a practical technology. Never mind the need for invisible tether strings for navigational control.
unless, you can scale a lifter to carry sensors to mars, and bead energy to it via orbital collectors..... and that's what we're getting toward here.
Reading the articles further will elaborate ont his topic in much more detail
-shpoffo
If you don't know what a gigabyte is
And as we all know - a gigabyte is how much it takes to store....... oh wait..
That's the thing - what can be done with 100 kb is a relative matter. File formats are always changing, applications bloat, video can be compressed. Answering quetions like "how much hard drive space do I need" is a question with many, many contributing factors. Perhaps with MP3s as music and mpeg and video 'standards' we are getting closer to a common language - since most everyone (in a first world nation =P ) is familiar with AV recordings.
...and let's remember that with PHP and MySQL I can write 1MB of dynamic interface code (+ graphics) that can interface 1GB of ecological/nuclear/etc data. Perhaps there is some kind of categorization of information efficiency, or usage?
-shpoffo
In 500 years, many of the arts we call science will be viewed as we regard alchemy today.
And when that time comes there will be new words and terms for the things done in that age. People will say "just because our ancestors didi things that alters quantum coherence domains doesn't mean they were Phasespace Engineers."
The arts we're doing today are the kernals of science tomorrow.
-shpoffo
"I thought: `Oh, my God! This is something. This isn't just a light bounce,' " recalled the official, G. Scott Hubbard, the director of the Ames Research Center at NASA and also a member of the independent board investigating the disaster. [emphasis added]
pardon me, but doesn't his position as director of Ames Research disqualify him as a candidate for an independant board? This foam study great and interesting, but I can't see how a genuine inquiry into this matter can occur without a true 3rd party.
opinions welcome
shpoffo