(And don't tell me anything about how that wouldn't help, lasers would still heat it up, blah blah blah. I've heard that before and I still say the same thing: boring.)
What exactly can a satellite do in the 5 seconds between when the laser is turned on and when it is done burning a hole through the satellite?
If we put mirrors on it before hand, it could reflect the lasers back at the feet of the evildoers who were trying to destroy our satelites (and freedom) and could film them melting saying "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!" Then automatically upload it to youtube. I'd say that's worth 29 million.
Good thing that was marked troll. All those military industry CEOs, arms manufacturers, military strategists, and politicians who read slashdot would have been pretty upset had they read that.
CNS may be your big issue but I'm reasonably certain that for sufferers of any of the 73 odd conditions, their big issues are addressed by adult stem cells just fine.
Good for them. We still have hundreds of diseases to cure and need to do more work, and need to keep all avenues open.
The problem with animal rights activists is that they're confused as to the boundaries of what's ethical in experimentation. They draw the prohibited line way too wide.
You could easily replace "animal rights" with "pro-life." I wouldn't agree with the resulting statement, but you're still saying "Their ethical concerns are stupid, but mine aren't," without justifying that. Some of them are violent, but some pro-life activists are too.
We leave exactly zero ethical questions of experimentation solely "up to the experts". Why should human embryo stem cell experimentation be any different?
In this case, because the objectors are uninformed. That HES cells are most usefull for basic biological research and not direct treatments is something you appear to be having a hard time with, and I'm sure you don't understand how incorrect it is to say that animal models are all we need.
It's also inaccurate to act as if it's a community as a whole that is opposed to HESC research, and only a few mad scientists are in favor of it, when in fact it's closer to a few misguided activists extremely opposed to it, engaging in a campaign to obfuscate the nature and benefits of HESC research.
If the adult stem cell cures are actually coming in areas which were supposedly never going to happen, why shouldn't adult stem cell research get the lions share of attention, press, and funding?
For the reason you continually ignore: HES offer our best model for understanding how cells mature and turn into cells we need.
While I'm glad to have the ACLU around to defend 95% of the constitution, unless they take a big change of course, there's always going to be a need for another org. to be there to defend that pesky 2nd amendment they wish would just go away.
Well, I think that's largely due to the fact that their donors and supporters tend to be part of a subset of liberals and maybe libertarians, who are not well known for their love of guns, wheras conservatives who are generally are repulsed by some of the "devil's advocate" stances the ACLU takes and refuse to join.
You can't really complain that an organization doesn't hold your views, when people who hold your views would never join that organization.
I personally am not opposed to gun ownership, but I wouldn't ever work hard to keep those rights. Conversely, I don't think most NRA members are in favor of blending of church and state per-se, but that's just not their thing (and of course, not the purpose of the organization... but you see what I'm getting at I hope.)
Basically you can get HES like cells from human testis. No treatments to come out of it of course, since it was just recently discovered, and unfortunately wouldn't work in females, but still important.
It's worth pointing out that this is another example of HES cells being used in valuable research.
Adult stem cells have over 70 active treatments in use for human health...Human embryonic stem cells have not been proven effective in treatments whatsoever. The only scientific reason they've been pursued is their supposed superiority in plasticity which would lead to actual treatments for diseases that adult stem cells couldn't cure.
None for the CNS, which is the big issue. Adult stem cells have the same number of CNS treatments that HES cells do, which is but one reason why both need to continue to get funding and research.
The plain fact is that cell differentiation can be studied using animal models just fine.
First of all, that's not true in the slightest, and I feel it's appropriate right here to mention I do actually work on cell differentiation in animal models. I still say that HES cells have their place. Second, this is the type of decision you want to leave up to the experts. Third, between you and the average animal rights activists, there would be no research.
But as adult stem cells prove more and more versatile, there become fewer and fewer reasons to violate the consciences of pro-lifers.
A secondary reason is that they give nice political cover for abortion rights ideology. When you talk about using human embryonic stem cells for a thousand years without any thought to using animal models instead or stopping use when adult cells turn out to be useful enough, I'm thinking that what's really at the heart of your position is this secondary reason.
Who is violating consciences of anyone? If you don't agree with the research, don't do it, and don't take the benefits of it. And there need only be one reason to continue HES cell research even if you or I don't agree with it: we have things to learn from them.
It is an absolute. Either you have it 100%, or you don't have it at all.
There are absolutely zero absolutes in the world. Uh... specifically when talking about government. There is a big difference between your freedom of speech in America vs your freedom of speech in, say, china.
Yes you overly cynical fools, there is a big difference and you know it. You're not going to be jailed or beaten for speaking out against the government, provided you don't actively call for violence. This is not the case in much of the world.
Acting as if Australia, America, or Europe doesn't have any free speech because in many case you cannot advocate genocide, view kiddie porn, or say "I have a bomb" on a plane, does NOT make it the same situation as in China. Doing so makes you seem like a spoiled kid who gets upset on christmas because he only got -most- of the 30 things on his list, not all.
Human embryonic cells have been failing at providing actual treatments for years now. But because the research has led to IPS cells, they're a 'success' that 'optimistically' needs to be used for the next thousand years. Right.
I said they're useful in figuring out how cells differentiate.
You also found it hard to imagine that adult stem cells in the form of bone marrow could be coerced into CNS cells even though a quick Google search would have let you know that it's been done since at least 2002.
You gave me an article saying rat bone marrow cells can turn into nerves in a dish. HES cells can do that. Adult stem cells haven't been used to treat CNS disorders. At what point is it appropriate to admit that they're a dry hole that should no longer be pursued?
Human Embryonic Stem (HES) cell research and Induced Pluripotent Stem (IPS) cell research have yielded exactly how many treatments? And at what point is it appropriate to admit that they're a dry hole that should no longer be pursued?
IPS cells have been known for about one year, so they have exactly as many treatments as you'd expect an important new biological discovery to have one year out: none.
Wikipedia tells me that penicillin was discovered by Flemming in 1928, the first case of a human treated with it was 1942. 14 years, and all that required was purification. Bit unreasonable to demand that IPS be treating people within one year. In fact, it's a bit unreasonable to expect to get approval to test it in humans in one year.
As far as HES cells, studies on them have given us IPS cells. That's a success in my book. HES cells have also been used extensively for studying cell biology and development. Conventional wisdom suggests that HES cells are most useful for research, not for treatment, because of the tissue rejection issue you mentioned, and because IPS cells seem to be the same thing just without tissue rejection and the ethical concerns.
So, when do we admit HES cells represent a dry hole that shouldn't investigate further? When we know all there is about how cells turn from the ball of cells stage to all of the thousands of different types of cells. I'd optimisticaly estimate 3000 AD. When do we admit IPS cells are at a dead end? When we... uh... no longer have a need to replace organs or parts of organs? Hard to imagine IPS cells becoming useless really.
It is nice that the summary informs me that something the size of a microwave is, in fact, NOT a gameboy and I can't put it in my pocket. I woulda never figured that out.
Obviously what they expected was better evolutionary biology principles. Was that an unreasonable expectation? Well, yeah, and I bet they feel stupid for expecting that now, but hindsight is 20-20.
The case of the tokyo woman involved her killing his maple story character. Anyone who has played maple story for a few minutes knows this was an act of kindness, not criminal.
But anyway, what are the chances we see the vice versa: Real murders get you virtual jail time. After all, turnaround is fair play. Making murderers play Maple Story to punish them would be fitting.
Perhaps pro-life people who you think are being unreasonable are merely better informed?
I'm going to call foul here. I never said anything about the pro-life movement, which I happen to agree with to an extent, certainly I didn't call them unreasonable, nor do I think they are. Don't know why you're getting so hostile. If I were to have a low opinion of pro-life people, you wouldn't exactly be helping it with your tone. This is a casual discussion.
I didn't do a google search, but I think I did a pubmed search with a similar string. Pubmed is an index of primary literature, the actual research papers. There were several thousand hits, mostly on neural adult stem cells, which as I mentioned are problematic. Rather than peruse through all that I thought it would be more efficient to ask you for your source, which I did.
I also have to point out that the article you cited was merely showing you could get neurons in a dish from bone marrow cells. That's a long way from being able to use them to heal spinal cords. Had you spent more than 90 seconds on it, you may have found the most recent work from that lab.
It's more promising than the article you posted, since they actually demonstrate these cells can make brain cells in actual brains rather than in a dish. I haven't read it as carefully as I apperantly need to to post on/. but in the last figure we see that bone marrow cells encouraged to differentiate into neurons have extremely low efficiencies of turning into brain cells even when implanted into chicken embryo brains. The efficiencies could be raised, but not without manipulating the bone marrow stem cells with viruses, which the authors did. Obviously there are some problems that raises. And this is still far from showing that bone marrow stem cells can repair damaged CNS in adults.
I was somewhat wrong, and thank you for correcting me. You're absolutely right in that we should not give up on adult stem cell therapies, but it's still too early to say adult stem cells make HES cell research and especially IPS cell research obsolete.
I agree, it's more of a slashdot meme than insightful. It's kind of like tagging every biology article "whatcouldpossiblygowrong" even when the answer is "no more than could go wrong from any other human activity, like folding laundry."
Typically it's called up when no one is attempting to say causation. They're basically warning people of overinterpreting data when they have clearly not overinterpreted data.
In general, the addition of the resveratrol shouldn't affect the taste of the beer, since the chemical is odorless and tasteless, he said.
So, why not adding it to... water? Because that way you wouldn't get in the newspaper, not even a/. mention?
Dude, shut up! Seriously... Next you'll be on about how you can get the benefits of the glass of wine a day in a capsule without having to drink a glass of wine, or about how the health benefits from sex are the same for masturbation. You callous bastard, what are you trying to do, drive up the suicide rate?
Slashdot Mirror
Most of those projects never produce anything but expensive trash.
Yeah, but the ones that do make something usefull often balance out the cost. Example: the thing you're using right now.
Not really a quote so much as most of the dialogue from the "Robocop" screenplay.
Those laws never worked though. All of his stories were about how they failed in spectacular ways and the process of finding out why they went wrong.
Well, that's all the empirical proof I need.
How are these laws being violated?
If we wait until the ARE violated even once, IT WILL BE TOO LATE FOR HUMANITY!!!
It could buy you plenty of mirrors.
(And don't tell me anything about how that wouldn't help, lasers would still heat it up, blah blah blah. I've heard that before and I still say the same thing: boring.)
What exactly can a satellite do in the 5 seconds between when the laser is turned on and when it is done burning a hole through the satellite?
If we put mirrors on it before hand, it could reflect the lasers back at the feet of the evildoers who were trying to destroy our satelites (and freedom) and could film them melting saying "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!" Then automatically upload it to youtube. I'd say that's worth 29 million.
Good thing that was marked troll. All those military industry CEOs, arms manufacturers, military strategists, and politicians who read slashdot would have been pretty upset had they read that.
CNS may be your big issue but I'm reasonably certain that for sufferers of any of the 73 odd conditions, their big issues are addressed by adult stem cells just fine.
Good for them. We still have hundreds of diseases to cure and need to do more work, and need to keep all avenues open.
The problem with animal rights activists is that they're confused as to the boundaries of what's ethical in experimentation. They draw the prohibited line way too wide.
You could easily replace "animal rights" with "pro-life." I wouldn't agree with the resulting statement, but you're still saying "Their ethical concerns are stupid, but mine aren't," without justifying that. Some of them are violent, but some pro-life activists are too.
We leave exactly zero ethical questions of experimentation solely "up to the experts". Why should human embryo stem cell experimentation be any different?
In this case, because the objectors are uninformed. That HES cells are most usefull for basic biological research and not direct treatments is something you appear to be having a hard time with, and I'm sure you don't understand how incorrect it is to say that animal models are all we need.
It's also inaccurate to act as if it's a community as a whole that is opposed to HESC research, and only a few mad scientists are in favor of it, when in fact it's closer to a few misguided activists extremely opposed to it, engaging in a campaign to obfuscate the nature and benefits of HESC research.
If the adult stem cell cures are actually coming in areas which were supposedly never going to happen, why shouldn't adult stem cell research get the lions share of attention, press, and funding?
For the reason you continually ignore: HES offer our best model for understanding how cells mature and turn into cells we need.
While I'm glad to have the ACLU around to defend 95% of the constitution, unless they take a big change of course, there's always going to be a need for another org. to be there to defend that pesky 2nd amendment they wish would just go away.
Well, I think that's largely due to the fact that their donors and supporters tend to be part of a subset of liberals and maybe libertarians, who are not well known for their love of guns, wheras conservatives who are generally are repulsed by some of the "devil's advocate" stances the ACLU takes and refuse to join.
You can't really complain that an organization doesn't hold your views, when people who hold your views would never join that organization.
I personally am not opposed to gun ownership, but I wouldn't ever work hard to keep those rights. Conversely, I don't think most NRA members are in favor of blending of church and state per-se, but that's just not their thing (and of course, not the purpose of the organization... but you see what I'm getting at I hope.)
So I just saw this, the actual article isn't out yet. Although it is further proof of your point, I think you would be interested in it
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/124974.php
And another one
http://www.nature.com/stemcells/2008/0810/081009/full/stemcells.2008.132.html
Basically you can get HES like cells from human testis. No treatments to come out of it of course, since it was just recently discovered, and unfortunately wouldn't work in females, but still important.
It's worth pointing out that this is another example of HES cells being used in valuable research.
Adult stem cells have over 70 active treatments in use for human health...Human embryonic stem cells have not been proven effective in treatments whatsoever. The only scientific reason they've been pursued is their supposed superiority in plasticity which would lead to actual treatments for diseases that adult stem cells couldn't cure.
None for the CNS, which is the big issue. Adult stem cells have the same number of CNS treatments that HES cells do, which is but one reason why both need to continue to get funding and research.
The plain fact is that cell differentiation can be studied using animal models just fine.
First of all, that's not true in the slightest, and I feel it's appropriate right here to mention I do actually work on cell differentiation in animal models. I still say that HES cells have their place. Second, this is the type of decision you want to leave up to the experts. Third, between you and the average animal rights activists, there would be no research.
But as adult stem cells prove more and more versatile, there become fewer and fewer reasons to violate the consciences of pro-lifers.
A secondary reason is that they give nice political cover for abortion rights ideology. When you talk about using human embryonic stem cells for a thousand years without any thought to using animal models instead or stopping use when adult cells turn out to be useful enough, I'm thinking that what's really at the heart of your position is this secondary reason.
Who is violating consciences of anyone? If you don't agree with the research, don't do it, and don't take the benefits of it. And there need only be one reason to continue HES cell research even if you or I don't agree with it: we have things to learn from them.
It is an absolute. Either you have it 100%, or you don't have it at all.
There are absolutely zero absolutes in the world. Uh... specifically when talking about government. There is a big difference between your freedom of speech in America vs your freedom of speech in, say, china.
Yes you overly cynical fools, there is a big difference and you know it. You're not going to be jailed or beaten for speaking out against the government, provided you don't actively call for violence. This is not the case in much of the world.
Acting as if Australia, America, or Europe doesn't have any free speech because in many case you cannot advocate genocide, view kiddie porn, or say "I have a bomb" on a plane, does NOT make it the same situation as in China. Doing so makes you seem like a spoiled kid who gets upset on christmas because he only got -most- of the 30 things on his list, not all.
Human embryonic cells have been failing at providing actual treatments for years now. But because the research has led to IPS cells, they're a 'success' that 'optimistically' needs to be used for the next thousand years. Right.
I said they're useful in figuring out how cells differentiate.
You also found it hard to imagine that adult stem cells in the form of bone marrow could be coerced into CNS cells even though a quick Google search would have let you know that it's been done since at least 2002.
You gave me an article saying rat bone marrow cells can turn into nerves in a dish. HES cells can do that. Adult stem cells haven't been used to treat CNS disorders. At what point is it appropriate to admit that they're a dry hole that should no longer be pursued?
Human Embryonic Stem (HES) cell research and Induced Pluripotent Stem (IPS) cell research have yielded exactly how many treatments? And at what point is it appropriate to admit that they're a dry hole that should no longer be pursued?
IPS cells have been known for about one year, so they have exactly as many treatments as you'd expect an important new biological discovery to have one year out: none.
Wikipedia tells me that penicillin was discovered by Flemming in 1928, the first case of a human treated with it was 1942. 14 years, and all that required was purification. Bit unreasonable to demand that IPS be treating people within one year. In fact, it's a bit unreasonable to expect to get approval to test it in humans in one year.
As far as HES cells, studies on them have given us IPS cells. That's a success in my book. HES cells have also been used extensively for studying cell biology and development. Conventional wisdom suggests that HES cells are most useful for research, not for treatment, because of the tissue rejection issue you mentioned, and because IPS cells seem to be the same thing just without tissue rejection and the ethical concerns.
So, when do we admit HES cells represent a dry hole that shouldn't investigate further? When we know all there is about how cells turn from the ball of cells stage to all of the thousands of different types of cells. I'd optimisticaly estimate 3000 AD. When do we admit IPS cells are at a dead end? When we... uh... no longer have a need to replace organs or parts of organs? Hard to imagine IPS cells becoming useless really.
It is nice that the summary informs me that something the size of a microwave is, in fact, NOT a gameboy and I can't put it in my pocket. I woulda never figured that out.
presumably because you think everyone in KS is a backwards redneck who denies evolution?
Ever since I moved away from there, yeah, I'd say that's correct.
what do you expect?
Obviously what they expected was better evolutionary biology principles. Was that an unreasonable expectation? Well, yeah, and I bet they feel stupid for expecting that now, but hindsight is 20-20.
Since when do we have club cards?!?
The case of the tokyo woman involved her killing his maple story character. Anyone who has played maple story for a few minutes knows this was an act of kindness, not criminal.
But anyway, what are the chances we see the vice versa: Real murders get you virtual jail time. After all, turnaround is fair play. Making murderers play Maple Story to punish them would be fitting.
Of the sun.
Here are a few real alternatives to daylight savings time:
-Daylight wasting time
-Nightlight saving time
-Dayheavy saving time
-Some permutation of the above terrible puns
Perhaps pro-life people who you think are being unreasonable are merely better informed?
I'm going to call foul here. I never said anything about the pro-life movement, which I happen to agree with to an extent, certainly I didn't call them unreasonable, nor do I think they are. Don't know why you're getting so hostile. If I were to have a low opinion of pro-life people, you wouldn't exactly be helping it with your tone. This is a casual discussion.
I didn't do a google search, but I think I did a pubmed search with a similar string. Pubmed is an index of primary literature, the actual research papers. There were several thousand hits, mostly on neural adult stem cells, which as I mentioned are problematic. Rather than peruse through all that I thought it would be more efficient to ask you for your source, which I did.
I also have to point out that the article you cited was merely showing you could get neurons in a dish from bone marrow cells. That's a long way from being able to use them to heal spinal cords. Had you spent more than 90 seconds on it, you may have found the most recent work from that lab.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/113489486/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
It's more promising than the article you posted, since they actually demonstrate these cells can make brain cells in actual brains rather than in a dish. I haven't read it as carefully as I apperantly need to to post on /. but in the last figure we see that bone marrow cells encouraged to differentiate into neurons have extremely low efficiencies of turning into brain cells even when implanted into chicken embryo brains. The efficiencies could be raised, but not without manipulating the bone marrow stem cells with viruses, which the authors did. Obviously there are some problems that raises. And this is still far from showing that bone marrow stem cells can repair damaged CNS in adults.
I was somewhat wrong, and thank you for correcting me. You're absolutely right in that we should not give up on adult stem cell therapies, but it's still too early to say adult stem cells make HES cell research and especially IPS cell research obsolete.
I agree, it's more of a slashdot meme than insightful. It's kind of like tagging every biology article "whatcouldpossiblygowrong" even when the answer is "no more than could go wrong from any other human activity, like folding laundry."
Typically it's called up when no one is attempting to say causation. They're basically warning people of overinterpreting data when they have clearly not overinterpreted data.
A title now accurately applied to the Lebatt Blue bear!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llgGjoTL7TI&feature=related
In general, the addition of the resveratrol shouldn't affect the taste of the beer, since the chemical is odorless and tasteless, he said.
So, why not adding it to... water? Because that way you wouldn't get in the newspaper, not even a /. mention?
Dude, shut up! Seriously... Next you'll be on about how you can get the benefits of the glass of wine a day in a capsule without having to drink a glass of wine, or about how the health benefits from sex are the same for masturbation. You callous bastard, what are you trying to do, drive up the suicide rate?