The thing is VFX studios work for the movies studios much like contractors. They are not involved with the legal dealings of media conglomerates. It would be akin of acusing the guy that does the food catering in a set of being part of the "evil machinery".
Not all the companies are moving to the Presidio. Lucasfilm and Skywalker Sound will still be based at the Ranch, while ILM will retain some operations in San Rafael. Also THX was spun off from Lucasfilm in 2002.
OK, just wanted to clarify lest someone else get confused.
But if ILM could only be asked to do extravaganzas, then I'd blame their execs for doing only extravaganzas.
That's they thing, they have never been asked to do only extravaganzas, neither by film studios or their own management. Although big budget VFX is their bread and butter (and in the very beginning that was the only place to get work, but Out of Africa and Mishima changed that). But for most projects they have to submit bids. Some of the other cases is when there is a relationship between the director and studio, say Spielberg and Muren, of Robert Zemeckis with Ken Ralston at Imageworks.
I say "yes",
Yeah I guess we agree, just wanted to exapnd on a few of your points.
(The Directors Guild only allows for 1 director per movie).
Are you sure about that? So what do they do in movies that are anthologies, say like the Twilight Zone movie or the upcoming Eros? There are also many movies that have two directors, like He Said, She Said or movies by the Farrelly brothers? No I think it's because the DGA may demand that directors be members of a Guild but I couldbe wrong.
Yes I know they built an underground garage (I took pictures of it). I just think the article worded it very bad, almost seems like they implied they built it atop an existing old structure (like strip mall). Which isn't the case since they demolished everything (the hospital) and started digging and building.
It's not exactly true he hides all the cars. Current ILM in San Rafael the cars are around the buildins, though many on the acksides of the buildings, but many all around. Basically there is no underground parking facility there, which sometimes makes parking a bit difficult.
That depends on release dates, not the actual facility per se and happens all the time. When subsurface scattering was shown at SIGGRAPH 2001, VFX and animation houses started working on it. PDI came with an improvement a year later and incorporated it, using it on Shrek 2 which didn't come out till 2004. ILM's Christophe Hery worked on the implementation (mentioned it at SIGGRAPH 2002) but they couldn't apply it on Ep. 2. Some ILM guys left (Joe Letteri and Ken McGaugh) and joined Weta Digital. In the end the first showcase of the techniques was ILM's Dobby in Harry Potter 2, a full month ahead of Gollum. Now did PJ made a tantrum and bought a new renderfarm to console the Weta guys? Of course it's a ridiculous assesment.
By the way, Hery, Letteri and McGaugh received an Academy SciTech award for their contributions. Second what does a VFX house have to do with the concept of a film of a director?
If you mean new computers, no they don't design them anymore since about the 90s. They used to when there was not much in the way of graphics workstations, like the Pixar Image Computer in the 80s. They do sometimes do a little bit of designing but usually with a vendor.
But their budget is so high that they can only be hired by big budget projects.
You be surprised hoy many small projects ILM works on, and sometimes just in a handfull of shots.
Small dramatic films like the upcoming Eros and Jarhead or films like Punch Drunk Love, 11'09''01 September 11, Gangs of New York, Celebrity, Magnolia and Pollock, low budget comedies liie Are We There Yet? and Stuck on You. There are even higher budget films where they have worked on a very limited basis, like just 1 shot for the Bourne Identity (split into 2 shots on editing).
Meanwhile, cheaper (Linux, etc) effects houses can spring up,
Small houses have other constraints and many are actually PC/Windows based. Besides ILM uses Linux both in the renderfarm and as workstations.
Again, the bottleneck is brains: if ILM supports the vision of a visionary film, it has an advantage. If ILM's execs apply it to the deadend of mere "special effects extravaganzas", it will be as relevant as fireworks exhibitions.
VFX houses are like contractors, they have to do what is requested on them. ILM nor anyone else is responsible for the scripts. And since it's a very competitive business they have to work on whatever they can get. Blame the studios that approve those films, not the ILM management who have nothing to do about it.
Still that article does have a few errors. It fails to mention that Lucas rejoined the Guild so he could direct Episode 1. Also The Letterman Digital Arts Center is not being built atop a garage. They built it where a the old Presidio military hospital was and is quite big.
I was thinking more along the lines of what ILM did on T3 (or in AI), where Arnie was covered with green prosthetics which were later replaced with digital prosthetics of the battle damage:
One thing, James cameron didn't make Terminator 3, though he gave his blessing.
As far as the character being CG, that has been a bit vague. It's not like the whole part will be CG through out but they use an actress and use CG to enhance her/ digital double when needed.
Actually Jurassci Park does have another better example than the face replacement. The shot where the lawyer guy in the bathroom stall gets chomped by the T-Rex. You only see him from the back as a midshot so it was a perfect candidate for an early CG stuntdouble.
Not really a stunt since what emerges is a CG character, not something trying to pass for a real human. SOme early examples were on Executive Decission and Jurassic Park.
Not exactly special favors since it was a formal agreement, you can still find the press releases at SGIs site.
ILM never pretended nothing. Maybe they didn't go out of their way to mention it to regular media (which are pretty clueless anyway) but Macs were certainly mentioned in more serious publications like Cinefex and AWN.
And there is mention of Macs in other projects like Van Helsing on a Mac magazine.
Usually though Macs are given distinct sequences, they might work on the same project as SGI/Linux machine but a lot of times its for specific things (matte paintings) or given specific sequences (R2 flying in Ep. 2, or the Naboo ship on Ep. 1).
Actually most of the work on the the Star Wars prequels were done on SGIs and Linux, though there was some work done on Macs. Actually most of the work done by ILM was SGI/Linux. The Art and Matte depts. do use Macs heavily. But lots of commercial (like Softimage and back then PRMan) and their propietary software don't run on Macs anyway.
The Rebel Unit was known as the Mac Rbel Unit, but they have mostly switched to PCs (for example the Rebel Unit worked on the R2 flying sequence in Ep. 2), dropping the Mac part of the name. While they did have something like the SGI clause it was unofficial and it wasn't exactly unknown they were using Macs.
Actually the story is a bit different. In the late 80s ILM started switching from specialized and propietary hardware (like the Pixar Computer) to workstations and adopted SGI. Curiously that's around the time John Knoll and his brother created Photoshop. Anyway since they invested heavily on SGI and were a poster child for CG, Lucas and SGI enetered into coopeation agreements, called the JEDI agreements, for Joint Environment for Digital Imaging. Basicly ILM would get early access to SGI hardware (and discounts) while providing feedback and allow SGI to promote the use of the gear at ILM. They had 4 such agreements, the JEDI IV recently finished,don't know if they extended it. There is still quite a bit of use of SGIs at ILM.
Macs were adopted more informally at ILM in the beginning, to do paint fixups, like on The Abyss and on matte painting, thie first with diogital work, the matte painting at the end of Die Hard 2. Dennis Muren himself took a sabatical back then to learn the new fangled CG technology using a Mac. While they eventually became an important part of the facility, the bulk was still done on SGIs.
Most of the work on Ep. 1 was still done on SGIs although the switch was starting to Linux. By the time EP 2. was in production the Linux switchover on x86 was in full swing, from the renderfarm to the artists workstations. Many TDs, animators and compositors worked on Linux machine for the films. Actually many artists had 2 machines on their desks, their Linux PC along with an SGI (O2s if I remember right).
Well Hulk had all sorts of shots including several transformations which meant going between tight/loose/ripped clothing (with sometimes switchovers from real to CG clothing).
As far as Pirates, where do you get the clothes were merged in? Did you think they got some skinny actors and copmed real clothes in;-). Actually you can see the cloth sims here:
In many of the shows I mentioned it was full CG cloth shown.
And just because clothing is tight it doesn't mean it's easy. Just dealing with the self collisions wih the body would drive any normal person insane. If you can get the SIGGRAPH 2001, course 36 notes it discusses some of the technical challenges of creating clothing for Boo in Monsters Inc.
There are other examples like on the Matrix sequels, the Stuart Little films, all sorts of digital stunt doubles, etc.
Well there's quite a bit of CG clothing you aren't aware out there: Hulk, T3, Harry Potter 2 and 3, Pirates of the Caribbean, Van Helsing, Peter Pan and Star Wars Episode 2 and 3, and that's just from one studio. There's quite a bit of movies and places doing some good cloth sims (personally I would like to see what Polar Express by Imageworks has).
CG clothing is a really difficult technical aspect because of the physics of the cloth itself (because of the weaving, material properties of thread, etc.) plus the complex problem of folding, collisions and possible interprenetration. There have been some very good SIGGRAPH papers about this in the last couple of years.
Re:Can't anyone make a DIFFERENT cgi movie?
on
Shrek 2 How-To
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· Score: 1
Well Imageworks might push towards different areas, especially if they make Tam Lin, currently in development (and also depends what you consider Polar Express is, animated film or stylized VFX film). They do have their slate of comical films also lined up. We'll have to wait and see what Lucasfilm Animation will do.
Just be careful how you count things. SUre principal photography for Minority Report might have been 4 months but there is all the preproduction (from script writing, set construction, casting, etc.) and postproduction (VFX, sound mixing, looping, etc.) which probably pushed the time to over a year maybe close to 2 years once greenlighted.
Oooops me bad. I meant to say that it seems 2D will be shut down at Dreamworks in general. You are right about Sharkslayer.
Re:Damn you Square!
on
Shrek 2 How-To
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· Score: 2, Informative
ILM did half of the effects on Pirates of the Caribbean, including the skeleton pirates, miniature ship and water tank effects and a good deal of matte paintings, supervised by John Knoll. Charlie Gibson supervised about half the other VFX work done by about half a dozen other facilities.
Re:State of the art?
on
Shrek 2 How-To
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· Score: 2, Informative
Sketches list appears in June (if we are lucky). But there's the SIGGRAPH 2004 course on Shrek 2, a paper on GI for animated films, a piece accepted at the prestigious Electronic Theatre and of course a VES Festival presentation on the film as well, so it's definately the creme de la creme (sp?):
Well it should be noted it's PDI/Dreamworks. Dreamworks is just the parent company (movie studio) which actually has 2 animation divisions: Dreamworks Animation (which did the 2D stuff like Spirit, Sinbad and the Prince of Egypt), and PDI (or Pacific Data Images) which was an independent studio, then Dreamwork acquired part of it until it got a controling stake and now owns it and is doing all the 3D animated films. Since Sinbad did poorly I think Dreamworks Animation might be shut down (don't remember the news but it should be easy to find).
Slashdot Mirror
The thing is VFX studios work for the movies studios much like contractors. They are not involved with the legal dealings of media conglomerates. It would be akin of acusing the guy that does the food catering in a set of being part of the "evil machinery".
I have some linked from my site:
ILM technology
You might want to check this one from 2003 which talks a bit about what they were planning for their new network at the Presidio:
10g Muscle
Not all the companies are moving to the Presidio. Lucasfilm and Skywalker Sound will still be based at the Ranch, while ILM will retain some operations in San Rafael. Also THX was spun off from Lucasfilm in 2002.
They actually mean 4,000 processors, rederfarm + workstations.
The 10x increase is just a number. By that they mean not only number of processors, but their speed and speed of their network and storage.
Thanks, that was most enlightening. Didn't know the DGA was that backward thinking in that regard.
By "machines" I mean their whole tech apparatus
OK, just wanted to clarify lest someone else get confused.
But if ILM could only be asked to do extravaganzas, then I'd blame their execs for doing only extravaganzas.
That's they thing, they have never been asked to do only extravaganzas, neither by film studios or their own management. Although big budget VFX is their bread and butter (and in the very beginning that was the only place to get work, but Out of Africa and Mishima changed that). But for most projects they have to submit bids. Some of the other cases is when there is a relationship between the director and studio, say Spielberg and Muren, of Robert Zemeckis with Ken Ralston at Imageworks.
I say "yes",
Yeah I guess we agree, just wanted to exapnd on a few of your points.
(The Directors Guild only allows for 1 director per movie).
Are you sure about that? So what do they do in movies that are anthologies, say like the Twilight Zone movie or the upcoming Eros? There are also many movies that have two directors, like He Said, She Said or movies by the Farrelly brothers? No I think it's because the DGA may demand that directors be members of a Guild but I couldbe wrong.
Yes I know they built an underground garage (I took pictures of it). I just think the article worded it very bad, almost seems like they implied they built it atop an existing old structure (like strip mall). Which isn't the case since they demolished everything (the hospital) and started digging and building.
It's not exactly true he hides all the cars. Current ILM in San Rafael the cars are around the buildins, though many on the acksides of the buildings, but many all around. Basically there is no underground parking facility there, which sometimes makes parking a bit difficult.
That depends on release dates, not the actual facility per se and happens all the time. When subsurface scattering was shown at SIGGRAPH 2001, VFX and animation houses started working on it. PDI came with an improvement a year later and incorporated it, using it on Shrek 2 which didn't come out till 2004. ILM's Christophe Hery worked on the implementation (mentioned it at SIGGRAPH 2002) but they couldn't apply it on Ep. 2. Some ILM guys left (Joe Letteri and Ken McGaugh) and joined Weta Digital. In the end the first showcase of the techniques was ILM's Dobby in Harry Potter 2, a full month ahead of Gollum. Now did PJ made a tantrum and bought a new renderfarm to console the Weta guys? Of course it's a ridiculous assesment.
By the way, Hery, Letteri and McGaugh received an Academy SciTech award for their contributions. Second what does a VFX house have to do with the concept of a film of a director?
If you mean new computers, no they don't design them anymore since about the 90s. They used to when there was not much in the way of graphics workstations, like the Pixar Image Computer in the 80s. They do sometimes do a little bit of designing but usually with a vendor.
You be surprised hoy many small projects ILM works on, and sometimes just in a handfull of shots.
Small dramatic films like the upcoming Eros and Jarhead or films like Punch Drunk Love, 11'09''01 September 11, Gangs of New York, Celebrity, Magnolia and Pollock, low budget comedies liie Are We There Yet? and Stuck on You. There are even higher budget films where they have worked on a very limited basis, like just 1 shot for the Bourne Identity (split into 2 shots on editing).
Small houses have other constraints and many are actually PC/Windows based. Besides ILM uses Linux both in the renderfarm and as workstations.
VFX houses are like contractors, they have to do what is requested on them. ILM nor anyone else is responsible for the scripts. And since it's a very competitive business they have to work on whatever they can get. Blame the studios that approve those films, not the ILM management who have nothing to do about it.
Still that article does have a few errors. It fails to mention that Lucas rejoined the Guild so he could direct Episode 1. Also The Letterman Digital Arts Center is not being built atop a garage. They built it where a the old Presidio military hospital was and is quite big.
I was thinking more along the lines of what ILM did on T3 (or in AI), where Arnie was covered with green prosthetics which were later replaced with digital prosthetics of the battle damage:
The Machines Of Terminator 3
It would probably be all CG for the more extreme shots like what Imageworks did on Spider-Man 2.
One thing, James cameron didn't make Terminator 3, though he gave his blessing.
As far as the character being CG, that has been a bit vague. It's not like the whole part will be CG through out but they use an actress and use CG to enhance her/ digital double when needed.
Actually Jurassci Park does have another better example than the face replacement. The shot where the lawyer guy in the bathroom stall gets chomped by the T-Rex. You only see him from the back as a midshot so it was a perfect candidate for an early CG stuntdouble.
Not really a stunt since what emerges is a CG character, not something trying to pass for a real human. SOme early examples were on Executive Decission and Jurassic Park.
Not exactly special favors since it was a formal agreement, you can still find the press releases at SGIs site.
ILM never pretended nothing. Maybe they didn't go out of their way to mention it to regular media (which are pretty clueless anyway) but Macs were certainly mentioned in more serious publications like Cinefex and AWN.
And there is mention of Macs in other projects like Van Helsing on a Mac magazine.
Usually though Macs are given distinct sequences, they might work on the same project as SGI/Linux machine but a lot of times its for specific things (matte paintings) or given specific sequences (R2 flying in Ep. 2, or the Naboo ship on Ep. 1).
Besides credits on films are negotiated as well.
Actually most of the work on the the Star Wars prequels were done on SGIs and Linux, though there was some work done on Macs. Actually most of the work done by ILM was SGI/Linux. The Art and Matte depts. do use Macs heavily. But lots of commercial (like Softimage and back then PRMan) and their propietary software don't run on Macs anyway.
The Rebel Unit was known as the Mac Rbel Unit, but they have mostly switched to PCs (for example the Rebel Unit worked on the R2 flying sequence in Ep. 2), dropping the Mac part of the name. While they did have something like the SGI clause it was unofficial and it wasn't exactly unknown they were using Macs.
Actually the story is a bit different. In the late 80s ILM started switching from specialized and propietary hardware (like the Pixar Computer) to workstations and adopted SGI. Curiously that's around the time John Knoll and his brother created Photoshop. Anyway since they invested heavily on SGI and were a poster child for CG, Lucas and SGI enetered into coopeation agreements, called the JEDI agreements, for Joint Environment for Digital Imaging. Basicly ILM would get early access to SGI hardware (and discounts) while providing feedback and allow SGI to promote the use of the gear at ILM. They had 4 such agreements, the JEDI IV recently finished,don't know if they extended it. There is still quite a bit of use of SGIs at ILM.
Macs were adopted more informally at ILM in the beginning, to do paint fixups, like on The Abyss and on matte painting, thie first with diogital work, the matte painting at the end of Die Hard 2. Dennis Muren himself took a sabatical back then to learn the new fangled CG technology using a Mac. While they eventually became an important part of the facility, the bulk was still done on SGIs.
Most of the work on Ep. 1 was still done on SGIs although the switch was starting to Linux. By the time EP 2. was in production the Linux switchover on x86 was in full swing, from the renderfarm to the artists workstations. Many TDs, animators and compositors worked on Linux machine for the films. Actually many artists had 2 machines on their desks, their Linux PC along with an SGI (O2s if I remember right).
Well Hulk had all sorts of shots including several transformations which meant going between tight/loose/ripped clothing (with sometimes switchovers from real to CG clothing).
As far as Pirates, where do you get the clothes were merged in? Did you think they got some skinny actors and copmed real clothes in ;-). Actually you can see the cloth sims here:
TechTV Segements on T3 and Pirates of the Caribbean Online
In many of the shows I mentioned it was full CG cloth shown.
And just because clothing is tight it doesn't mean it's easy. Just dealing with the self collisions wih the body would drive any normal person insane. If you can get the SIGGRAPH 2001, course 36 notes it discusses some of the technical challenges of creating clothing for Boo in Monsters Inc.
There are other examples like on the Matrix sequels, the Stuart Little films, all sorts of digital stunt doubles, etc.
Well there's quite a bit of CG clothing you aren't aware out there: Hulk, T3, Harry Potter 2 and 3, Pirates of the Caribbean, Van Helsing, Peter Pan and Star Wars Episode 2 and 3, and that's just from one studio. There's quite a bit of movies and places doing some good cloth sims (personally I would like to see what Polar Express by Imageworks has).
CG clothing is a really difficult technical aspect because of the physics of the cloth itself (because of the weaving, material properties of thread, etc.) plus the complex problem of folding, collisions and possible interprenetration. There have been some very good SIGGRAPH papers about this in the last couple of years.
Well Imageworks might push towards different areas, especially if they make Tam Lin, currently in development (and also depends what you consider Polar Express is, animated film or stylized VFX film). They do have their slate of comical films also lined up. We'll have to wait and see what Lucasfilm Animation will do.
Just be careful how you count things. SUre principal photography for Minority Report might have been 4 months but there is all the preproduction (from script writing, set construction, casting, etc.) and postproduction (VFX, sound mixing, looping, etc.) which probably pushed the time to over a year maybe close to 2 years once greenlighted.
Oooops me bad. I meant to say that it seems 2D will be shut down at Dreamworks in general. You are right about Sharkslayer.
ILM did half of the effects on Pirates of the Caribbean, including the skeleton pirates, miniature ship and water tank effects and a good deal of matte paintings, supervised by John Knoll. Charlie Gibson supervised about half the other VFX work done by about half a dozen other facilities.
Sketches list appears in June (if we are lucky). But there's the SIGGRAPH 2004 course on Shrek 2, a paper on GI for animated films, a piece accepted at the prestigious Electronic Theatre and of course a VES Festival presentation on the film as well, so it's definately the creme de la creme (sp?):
Visual Effects Society Festival schedule
Shrek 2 course at SIGGRAPH 2004
SIGGRAPH 2004 Electronic Theatre list
An Approximate Global Illumination System for Computer-Generated Films
Well it should be noted it's PDI/Dreamworks. Dreamworks is just the parent company (movie studio) which actually has 2 animation divisions: Dreamworks Animation (which did the 2D stuff like Spirit, Sinbad and the Prince of Egypt), and PDI (or Pacific Data Images) which was an independent studio, then Dreamwork acquired part of it until it got a controling stake and now owns it and is doing all the 3D animated films. Since Sinbad did poorly I think Dreamworks Animation might be shut down (don't remember the news but it should be easy to find).