Pfft, how many times do I need to say "I've got no problem with people using closed source binary drivers" before it sinks in. Why is it that idiots like you insist on confusing idealism with fundamentalism?
But you're building those bridges with binary drivers and closed source. What's the point? You might as well use free software on Windows because the end-result is the same. You're still using a closed source system. Why do you think Linux has a greater marketshare than arguably better systems like MacOSX, BeOS, or QNX? It's not the price because BeOS didn't get any attention even when they made it cost-free. It's not the applications because MacOSX has many more. It's not the variety of supported platforms because the majority of Linux users use x86. The primary reason why Linux is winning is because Linux is open source. That's the distinguishing feature of Linux. It's the whole POINT of Linux.
I've seen your rationale which is "better to get drivers now and convince them of the benefits of open source later". I disagree. There's no incentive for the vendor to change their policy when they have already sold you the hardware. All you've really done is prop-up the binary-driver business for a couple more years. Much better to let the vendors know our rules up front. Then they can play if they want to and there are no nasty surprises later on. If they decide that their specs and/or source are more important than selling their hardware, doesn't bother me, Linux will do just fine without them. Another vendor will always appear who is willing to release the code or the specs.
Pragmatism is all well and good - it gets the job done - but a pragmatist has no ideals. You might be using Windows XP tomorrow for whatever reasons. And that's fine. I've no problem with that. But if you want Linux to win then you'll demand code for your drivers. If you want Linux to win then you need to be an idealist.
Unfortunately, we don't have this choice (at present)
You always have a choice.
... since all video card drivers seem to be binary only.
The video card driver I use is 100% open source.
I said - if xwin comes up with a clean, consistent API...
The bit that you said and that I responded to was:
... if we're to turn these people to our side, we have to be sensitive to thier needs.
I pointed out that you're not turning these people to "our side" when you play by their rules. Nothing you've said since has done anything to convince me otherwise. Fine, you're happy with a closed source system and binary drivers. That's great. But that's not winning them to "our side". You've been won over to *their* side. You might as well use Windows for all the good it does you.
I'd just use Windows.
I have my answer.;^)
Only by quoting out of context. I made it very clear that I don't use Windows. It's pretty lame that you have to use fantasy in order to "win" your argument. Perhaps this is the same sort of "win" you want for Linux?
How can we turn someone to our side who would be in essence - by opening up thier drivers - giving thier R&D budget to the competition?
I'm not asking them to. I'm disputing the claim that you can "win" by using closed software, when the whole purpose of free software is to NOT use closed software. I see no reason why I should ignore the ideals of free software in order to be "sensitive to their needs". I would much rather
not use their product.
IMHO, binary video drivers for OSS projects are still better than none at all.
IMHO, no drivers at all are better than using binary drivers. I would rather Linux loses if winning means becoming non-free. Better to die on your feet, and so on.
The difference here is that you are being pragmatic and I am being idealistic. If I wanted to be pragmatic I wouldn't use Linux in the first place. I'd just use Windows.
Getting drivers for X doesn't seem to be a problem, as long as those drivers are binary. I know, I know, Free Software, blah blah - however, if we're to turn these people to our side, we have to be sensitive to thier needs.
If we accept binary drivers then we haven't turned these people to our side. They have turned us to their side.
Editorial reviews are too shallow. The reviewers will focus on the graphics, the special effects, the support for 5.1 surround sound, how neato the FMV scenes are, and any glitches they can find. This makes the review worthless because all too often they haven't bothered to discuss the GAMEPLAY.
When all is said and done, the graphics and sound of a game are entertaining for 15 minutes but it is the gameplay that keeps me coming back. Just like how a movie with big-budget special effects is fun to watch once but I'll watch movies like Dr StrangeLove a dozen times. The great gameplay is the reason why I still play Doom, Quake, Starcraft, Star Control 2, Sam'n'Max, Final Fantasy 7, Galaga, etc. Admittedly those games were technically impressive when they were released but they date well because of their gameplay.
And this is why most reviews are useless. I can understand why it happens; the paid reviewers have a big stack of games and not a lot of time. The review is simply a list of the "neato" effects the game offers. I could get the same info from the downloadable demo. I expect something a little deeper from a review. This is why I've turned to user reviews; sometimes they're just as shallow but at least I can expect the user of a game to have put some effort into playing it. Maybe.
Games developers know that reviews are shallow so they produce games that have explosions and shiny things and big boom-boom noises. They know that those games will get the good reviews. So gameplay has taken a backseat to "production quality". It is exactly what happened to Hollywood. Sure, the occasional great game manages to slip through the system but it's the exception not the rule.
I have an HP LXR 8500 with four processors (currently) and 4GB of ram. I've been considering upgrading to 6GB for a while anyway. I'm currently using Windows 2000 advanced server on it, after being somewhat frustrated with Linux support a couple of years ago. I'd be more than willing to try out BSD, although I never have before. Is there anything I should know about this? I presume that BSD would run Mathematica fine under Linux emulation mode, as my main use of the box is just Mathematica crunching. Does FreeBSD make reasonable use of four processors? Anything else I should beware of? And anyone know a good source for cheap lxr-ready ram?
Let me translate what you wrote for all the non-cynics out there.
Hi, I have a functional system that meets all my needs, but obviously I'm not working hard enough because I have the time to blow it away and futz with alpha-quality software. I tried Linux several years ago - I think it was Slackware 1.0 - but I was unhappy with the support though admittedly I didn't pay for a support contract. Of course, I'm assuming that Linux support hasn't improved at all the past several years. I heard something about IBM but I think that was just a rumor. So now I'm willing to try FreeBSD because that will have better support than Linux, right? Also the software I use isn't supported by FreeBSD I'm going to do it in emulation but I believe this will increase my chances of support! Also my machine has 4 CPUs and I know that FreeBSD SMP support is immature, but I still think I'll get great performance from an emulated Linux ABI running on an alpha-quality OS release with immature SMP support.
You're a student, right? Or perhaps you do a brilliant parody of BSD bigots.
Since when are/should "message boards" be banned from schools?! Isn't the whole point of school (supposedly) to facilitate intellectual conversations..
No, schools are expensive day-care centres so parents can work. By keeping children occupied with mindless tedium (aka homework) schools also reduce the juvenille crime rate.
Mod me funny, I dare you. I'm not being funny goddamnit.
I don't think the Cowboy Bebop movie is good enough for "non-anime" viewers since it's not even good enough for people not familiar with the series. The movie spends zero time introducing the four main characters. There is no way of knowing why there such a love-hate relationship between Faye and Spike/Jet. And why does Ein know the next move of Go? Or why does Spike have this whole devil-may-care attitude? Viewers of the series or readers of the manga could easily answer those questions. It's a good anime movie, but it is squarely aimed at the fans of the series.
Good. I hate it when a movie wastes its time explaining things that I already know. Anime like Cowboy Bebop is rare enough as it is. I don't want them wasting precious footage on exposition. The TV series already does all that.
Ok, sure, that means the movie will only appeal to people who have seen the TV series. Fine by me. I don't see why the movie should cater to the lowest common denominator. It should cater to the fans. Sounds like it does. That's great.
There's also cool stuff like(gasp!) water, fruit juice, and vegetable juice. All three are much healthier for you,
There's almost as much sugar in fruit juice as in fizzy sugar water. Even though fruit juice is still healthier for you, you'd be much better off eating a piece of fruit.
And now you've just held yourself up as an example of exactly the sort of "shrieking geek" she was talking about.
Wow! What a towering intellect. I can see you took a long time to think of that witty retort. Maybe I should futureproof myself against your devastating putdowns by prefacing all future posts with "anybody who disagrees with me is an idiot". Because in essence that's exactly what Tsu Doh Numb did; she poisoned the water *precisely* for that easy retort that you jumped on. You're lame for even using it. Everybody else saw it but only you were desperate enough to use it.
It's not bitching--it's an attempt to qualify an experience by benchmarks (i.e. the windows experience) that you may not like but, like it or not, the world works by. That the experience didn't go so well is by no means her fault.
Oh what nonsense. If you took your head out of the sand you'd see that she used 7 year old hardware - hardware she admitted that Windows XP wouldn't work with - but she expected Linux to work perfectly. Then she took 18 months, used a dozen different distros, and refused to use the help that was offered because it was "on a website". She never wanted help. She wanted an excuse to complain. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
And what's this bullshit about "benchmarks"? Installing Windows XP would be a benchmark. She made no such comparison. The whole article is completely flawed. You are defending a nonsense with more nonsense. Ironic, perhaps. Useful, no.
If developers (or users, for that matter) mantain a screw-the-newbies attitude, the OS is going to reflect that. How can an OS be user-friendly and easy to install if the people who are its (few, comparatively) advocates figure that the people who don't "get it" can just go back to Windows.
I don't maintain a "screw-the-newbies" attitude. I maintain a "screw-the-ingrates" attitude. There's a difference between saying "thanks, but it's not what I want" and saying "it's so crap and you guys are all shrieking geeks".
Another thing that gave me pause about your post is the whole "gift" idea. It's great that the community has put so much work into a product. But if the community can't take criticism the product (or do you consider it a "gift," and not a product?) won't improve very quickly and won't gain a user base so fast either.
Any article that contains the phrase "shrieking geeks" is not criticism in the constructive sense. It is bitching. Plain and simple. She wants help but she wants to be a bitch too? No thanks. She can get screwed.
Your comments just serve to insult and degrade the user base which is exactly what Linux doesn't need.
What nonsense. If people have such thin skins then they are hardly well adapted for this world.
And then I switched off. I really couldn't care less whether she uses Linux or not. She's not the sort of person who is worth fighting for. How can anybody act so ungraciously when a community gives her a free gift of software, a free gift of their time, and a free gift of their knowledge, all with the goal of HELPING her? She can go pay for new hardware and Windows XP and avoid having to deal with all those "shrieking geeks".
If this lady is the sort of person that will be attracted to Linux if Linux is made easier to use then I think the current situation is fine. Keep Linux hard to use because that will keep these ungrateful brats away from Linux. Any valid improvements she might suggest are irrelevant if those improvements result in more users like her. She obviously considers herself to be a better person than the "geeks". I think the situation is exactly the opposite. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
No, just shut the fuck up and stop bitching about spelling and grammar. People hate seeing those posts worse than seeing their targets. If you have a problem with someone, email them. Otherwise you are just attacking them in a public forum and not really improving anything.
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Pfft, how many times do I need to say "I've got no problem with people using closed source binary drivers" before it sinks in. Why is it that idiots like you insist on confusing idealism with fundamentalism?
But you're building those bridges with binary drivers and closed source. What's the point? You might as well use free software on Windows because the end-result is the same. You're still using a closed source system. Why do you think Linux has a greater marketshare than arguably better systems like MacOSX, BeOS, or QNX? It's not the price because BeOS didn't get any attention even when they made it cost-free. It's not the applications because MacOSX has many more. It's not the variety of supported platforms because the majority of Linux users use x86. The primary reason why Linux is winning is because Linux is open source. That's the distinguishing feature of Linux. It's the whole POINT of Linux.
I've seen your rationale which is "better to get drivers now and convince them of the benefits of open source later". I disagree. There's no incentive for the vendor to change their policy when they have already sold you the hardware. All you've really done is prop-up the binary-driver business for a couple more years. Much better to let the vendors know our rules up front. Then they can play if they want to and there are no nasty surprises later on. If they decide that their specs and/or source are more important than selling their hardware, doesn't bother me, Linux will do just fine without them. Another vendor will always appear who is willing to release the code or the specs.
Pragmatism is all well and good - it gets the job done - but a pragmatist has no ideals. You might be using Windows XP tomorrow for whatever reasons. And that's fine. I've no problem with that. But if you want Linux to win then you'll demand code for your drivers. If you want Linux to win then you need to be an idealist.
You always have a choice.
The video card driver I use is 100% open source.
The bit that you said and that I responded to was:
I pointed out that you're not turning these people to "our side" when you play by their rules. Nothing you've said since has done anything to convince me otherwise. Fine, you're happy with a closed source system and binary drivers. That's great. But that's not winning them to "our side". You've been won over to *their* side. You might as well use Windows for all the good it does you.
Only by quoting out of context. I made it very clear that I don't use Windows. It's pretty lame that you have to use fantasy in order to "win" your argument. Perhaps this is the same sort of "win" you want for Linux?
I'm not asking them to. I'm disputing the claim that you can "win" by using closed software, when the whole purpose of free software is to NOT use closed software. I see no reason why I should ignore the ideals of free software in order to be "sensitive to their needs". I would much rather not use their product.
IMHO, no drivers at all are better than using binary drivers. I would rather Linux loses if winning means becoming non-free. Better to die on your feet, and so on.
The difference here is that you are being pragmatic and I am being idealistic. If I wanted to be pragmatic I wouldn't use Linux in the first place. I'd just use Windows.
If we accept binary drivers then we haven't turned these people to our side. They have turned us to their side.
Editorial reviews are too shallow. The reviewers will focus on the graphics, the special effects, the support for 5.1 surround sound, how neato the FMV scenes are, and any glitches they can find. This makes the review worthless because all too often they haven't bothered to discuss the GAMEPLAY.
When all is said and done, the graphics and sound of a game are entertaining for 15 minutes but it is the gameplay that keeps me coming back. Just like how a movie with big-budget special effects is fun to watch once but I'll watch movies like Dr StrangeLove a dozen times. The great gameplay is the reason why I still play Doom, Quake, Starcraft, Star Control 2, Sam'n'Max, Final Fantasy 7, Galaga, etc. Admittedly those games were technically impressive when they were released but they date well because of their gameplay.
And this is why most reviews are useless. I can understand why it happens; the paid reviewers have a big stack of games and not a lot of time. The review is simply a list of the "neato" effects the game offers. I could get the same info from the downloadable demo. I expect something a little deeper from a review. This is why I've turned to user reviews; sometimes they're just as shallow but at least I can expect the user of a game to have put some effort into playing it. Maybe.
Games developers know that reviews are shallow so they produce games that have explosions and shiny things and big boom-boom noises. They know that those games will get the good reviews. So gameplay has taken a backseat to "production quality". It is exactly what happened to Hollywood. Sure, the occasional great game manages to slip through the system but it's the exception not the rule.
I'm glad you took it the right way. Too many people don't appreciate my sense of humor :-D
Let me translate what you wrote for all the non-cynics out there.
You're a student, right? Or perhaps you do a brilliant parody of BSD bigots.
I'm not against education. I'm against schools that churn out slack-jawed yokels who can't read, write, or count to 10 without the aid of fingers.
No, schools are expensive day-care centres so parents can work. By keeping children occupied with mindless tedium (aka homework) schools also reduce the juvenille crime rate.
Mod me funny, I dare you. I'm not being funny goddamnit.
Really?
As I said, that one's not so bad. I often make the same sort of mistake.
Good. I hate it when a movie wastes its time explaining things that I already know. Anime like Cowboy Bebop is rare enough as it is. I don't want them wasting precious footage on exposition. The TV series already does all that.
Ok, sure, that means the movie will only appeal to people who have seen the TV series. Fine by me. I don't see why the movie should cater to the lowest common denominator. It should cater to the fans. Sounds like it does. That's great.
There's almost as much sugar in fruit juice as in fizzy sugar water. Even though fruit juice is still healthier for you, you'd be much better off eating a piece of fruit.
Wow! What a towering intellect. I can see you took a long time to think of that witty retort. Maybe I should futureproof myself against your devastating putdowns by prefacing all future posts with "anybody who disagrees with me is an idiot". Because in essence that's exactly what Tsu Doh Numb did; she poisoned the water *precisely* for that easy retort that you jumped on. You're lame for even using it. Everybody else saw it but only you were desperate enough to use it.
Oh what nonsense. If you took your head out of the sand you'd see that she used 7 year old hardware - hardware she admitted that Windows XP wouldn't work with - but she expected Linux to work perfectly. Then she took 18 months, used a dozen different distros, and refused to use the help that was offered because it was "on a website". She never wanted help. She wanted an excuse to complain. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
And what's this bullshit about "benchmarks"? Installing Windows XP would be a benchmark. She made no such comparison. The whole article is completely flawed. You are defending a nonsense with more nonsense. Ironic, perhaps. Useful, no.
Of course they know the difference. Their heads aren't stuck in a hole in the ground.
Does it make you special to state your "side"? No really, you're not adding to the discussion nor are you humorous. What a waste of a post!
I don't maintain a "screw-the-newbies" attitude. I maintain a "screw-the-ingrates" attitude. There's a difference between saying "thanks, but it's not what I want" and saying "it's so crap and you guys are all shrieking geeks".
Any article that contains the phrase "shrieking geeks" is not criticism in the constructive sense. It is bitching. Plain and simple. She wants help but she wants to be a bitch too? No thanks. She can get screwed.
What nonsense. If people have such thin skins then they are hardly well adapted for this world.
Bingo!
Are you saying that the "rediculuous" person has intellectual shortcomings? Shame on you.
Hahaha, wouldn't your point make more sense if I was writing "gramatically" [sic] incorrect Chinese?! Are you taking medication? No, I'm serious.
Oh man, this spelling flame has been the most fun I've had on Slashdot in weeks. All the idiots have come out of the woodwork. You're the best so far!
I was reading the article right up to this:
And then I switched off. I really couldn't care less whether she uses Linux or not. She's not the sort of person who is worth fighting for. How can anybody act so ungraciously when a community gives her a free gift of software, a free gift of their time, and a free gift of their knowledge, all with the goal of HELPING her? She can go pay for new hardware and Windows XP and avoid having to deal with all those "shrieking geeks".
If this lady is the sort of person that will be attracted to Linux if Linux is made easier to use then I think the current situation is fine. Keep Linux hard to use because that will keep these ungrateful brats away from Linux. Any valid improvements she might suggest are irrelevant if those improvements result in more users like her. She obviously considers herself to be a better person than the "geeks". I think the situation is exactly the opposite. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Haha, ever heard of Freudian projection? Maybe you are jealous because you didn't flame first :-D
Hehehe.
Sentences. :-P