Whenever contributing to any open source projects that I have worked with the understanding has always been that the guys who started the project/own the copyright were the ones who had control of the software. Meaning my contributions became copyright theirs for legal purposes exactly such as this.
So tell me if you implement bits and pieces to form your own Unix does that not become a Unix? Or are you implying that merging several ideas to form your own better tool is not acceptable. So you learn the way to do things on the new system.
Care to provide even anecdotal evidence for your claims about childish messages? How about that steep learning curve, gee wouldn't that apply to any Unix. A little thrashing when moving from one *nix to another is expectd. Anyways most Solaris admins I know just install the GNU toolchain as the first step of the setup process anyhow.
Anyone concerned about data redundancy/safety can use XFS now that it is stable, that argument too is now kind of pointless. Ever heard of consistent backups on top of all of this?
Frequent updates? Minus security updates what operating system does not have frequent updates, *cough* windows? Come on that is stretching it too. Most updates are too external from the kernel software which gets updated on all unices when the updates come out.... If it works dont mess with it tho right?
I am trying to find any reason or truth in your arguments and im coming up short. Any good Unix admin is going to cost you, and they can most surely handle any Unix or *nix like operating system. Go play back in the sand box now.
I notice one peculiar thing that perhaps is a slip up on breathds part. He still refers to himself a couple of times in the article as a cartoonist. Or includes himself within the group or cartoonists. It is interesting to note that he is retired yet still includes himself as one of "them":). I suppose once a cartoonist always a cartoonist.
He totally underrates himself, he got a pulitzer for his cartoon work, which as he pokes fun at was probably not an easy feat by any means.
How many people do you think really cant drive a stick?
Me and my GF are really into mustangs and I got her hooked on a manual. I even like my manual in traffic:)
I have a Z-Rated T5 in my stang, I think at 70 im doing about 1.7K RPMs in my daily driver.
I love real muscle cars and keep all but one of my (I only have three) mustangs stock. It is actually great fun to build up a later models mustang due to the large fan base and available parts --ok-- that kind of takes the fun out of it but for the lazy its fun.
I restored a 64 1/2 too and would have nothing to do with automatic tranmission:)
There are still some folks out there who like manual trannies..:)
I know a lot of people look down upon mustangs with great disdain, but im really into classic cars and mustangs for the fun of it not because my care is more 1337 than j00rs:)
It really was political and a case of choosing his battles wisely.
Im not sure of any upcoming issues that are more important than this one but he didnt really make anyone too upset which means he has not alienated the majority of folks.
Its a good idea to pick the fights you really want to fight and go with the flow for the rest. He has three years and some change left at least.
Yep, Its true using JavaScript for validation has definite flaws.
No it is not the greatest
Yes it takes more time to develop and maintain two totally seperate languages for data validation.
I have sat down and thought about it quite a bit and had quite a few technical reviews over it.
The overall consensus is that for an/Application/ not just a website the overall effect of carefully used JavaScript is beneficial. Yes you can just throw more hardware at the problem but with a properly designed and documented system implementing the validation is the last and easy step to the entire process.
Of course there have been situations where I nixed JavaScript of any sort (highly used websites that handled a good bit of e-commerce). Its different and of course one off the wall comment of mine doesnt solve or prove anything. It requires a well designed and analyzed development plan with a competent development team to effectively utilize when to use a technology and when to not use a technology. To offhand say, "You cant possibly do that for nearly the same cost" is of course asinine as you noted. Documentation and Design are wonderful things. I can pass my design document off to the HTML/UI guys and the validation takes them at most an hour client side to implement properly. Same goes to the backend/middleware people.
In most situations the JS is not required but is there if the user can utilize it. For an intranet oh well if you don't like it. JavaScript has DEFINITE advantages in terms of user interface design. I know a lot of people especially the/. crowrd are tough to sell on js from all the popups and just turn it off. People fight it tooth and nail some of the time. Oh well.. client side scripting has its uses and the sooner people realize that the easier it gets. No its not anything special and no I still don't trust the client data EVER without server side validation. For the effort it takes to write the JS in most cases it far outweighs not having it. But your right, most people dont design nor document. But when that question has come up I could prove that the time invested gave enough benefits and return on the time invested that it was very much worth it. Of course im blessed to have co-workers and developers that understand the wonders of actually designing something:)
We are in the business of writing software and are don't even think of it in terms of a website anymore. The difference in culture and development methodology is striking compared to a typical web development shop.
First, Javascript is a good idea. The language is small easy to use and gets the job done.
Second the implementation in current browsers leaves a little to be wanting.
Lets talk about the merits of the language if we are going to slam it. Do not talk about a language being inherently good or bad OR the implementation of the LANGUAGE being good or bad if you are just going to be critical of the stupid things people do with JavaScript.
People do stupid things in ANY programming language on ANY platform EVERYWHERE.
I am not sure what the point was to your post other than to be sarcastic or funny.
Any web developers worth a grain of salt knows that you can't trust data from the client. For every bit of JavaScript data validation I have written there is a nice set of validation routines the data is put through ON the server.
I think inexperienced developers may put the work to the client exclusively but this again has nothing to do with the merits or flaws of JavaScript as a language IMO.
I have been using client side validation for as long as I have developed web applications (almost five years now). When people use our intranet we require them to use JavaScript. Why? It enhances the user experience enough that the use of JavaScript is justifiable. 999/1000 times the client is not trying to hack you. What does it hurt to do a little client side validation. This will get 99% of your bad data. Then you ship it to your server validation routines and it all goes smoothly. No extra trips back to the client/server just to validate the data and get the required information in the proper format... all done in one trip to the server. This not only makes an application more robust it makes the application feel smoother for the end user.
My point being people complain about JavaScript when truly they are complaning about the implementations of other developers, Not the browser implementation and Not the actual language itself. It is just easier to say its all crap and ignore it and blame other developers for being idiots right?
I agree. I don't need a lot of "gadgets" or anything. I got rid of my cellphone and never looked back for a moment. Being married to so much technology can get to you. Granted my workstation has a clock embedded into the far end of the taskbar I have avoided a watch for the same philosophy. We live in a time where there is much less time and I can't be bothered with a cell phone and a watch and feeling so rushed and that the tech is taking over.
I develop software for a living and find that even the geekiest of geeks need an escape. I carry a PDA around for the utility. I never have trouble slipping it into my pocket with very little visibility. Khacki's or dress clothes are my attire. If I can't fit it into my pocket I dont need it. What ever happened to doing business without a cell phone. People are so married to the damn things its insane. I remember this thing called voice mail. It works SO well. You can even deal with people when your ready! It is amazing.
The exception being a sysadmin, but even then.. a beeper suffices.
Leave the cellphone at home for a week or two! Get a nice voicemail system you can access anywhere (IE: with the telco) you will be amazed at how much more free you feel for the sacrifice of a SMALL slight amount of convenience.
Even if you have a cell for long distance/regular phone use it can still stay at home!
ID releases the source but say hey if you want to do something with this and DONT want to release the source contact us.
Sure you CAN pay id for a special license if you dont like the GPL, if they will give you a new lic.
Think about it its my software I can release it GPL up to version 1.0 and then say oh 2.0 is proprietary. You can take V1.0 and do whatever you want under the terms of the GPL, but 2.0 you have ot follow whatever lic I choose.
The civil war was only partly about slavery. History 1Oh1 pretty clearly points out the reasons the civil war began. Nothing is EVER black and white like, a war is over slavery and one man freed the slaves.
I realize your point by saying that but nothing is ever black and white. So, point taken but I still think its self contradicting to say something like that. Of course I have nothing to back that up but my assumptions about the poster so that too can be refuted.
If you truly believe that you are simply a hypocrite.
If proof of anything that has happened must exist for you to believe then you are in a sad state of affairs.
Beyond the immediate past where those living can tell us of it all we have is history books and historians to tell us of our past. If we do not as a whole society learn and collect wisdom and use this wisdom to prevent the past there will be no society and this party line of "I need proof to believe it" is simply a troll.
I agree the heart of the issue can be put in a legal light but lets put this in a ethical sense.
I have a link in my e-commerce engine that goes to a site that I have partenered with. Unbeknownst to the user some third party is modifying my content without their knowledge beofre they have the chance to go to my partners site the link is clicked. BOOM, they are whisked away to a competitors site.
I think that chain of events just described violate so many principles of right and wrong it is not funny.
How would you like it if you wrote an article and all your links were magically altered and people started filling up your in box with flames because the links were all to some pron site?
This is NOT etihical. It is like the Gnome people buying the keyword for KDE on google minus the fact that you can tell its an advertisement!
Slashdot Mirror
Whenever contributing to any open source projects that I have worked with the understanding has always been that the guys who started the project/own the copyright were the ones who had control of the software. Meaning my contributions became copyright theirs for legal purposes exactly such as this.
Im sure VA is not that dumb.
Jeremy
It does not matter.
They can take sourceforge and sell it right now in its entire form as a closed source product if they want.
So many people have missed this.
Think of Quake I and idsoftware. They released it under the GPL and will sell it too you proprietary for your own purposes IF you want to pay.
Sourceforge is doing the same thing.. They can sell the "GPL'd" version under any lic they want, they own the software.
Jeremy
I kind of like it with the messages numbered in the millions. :)
With a server configuration it is something like less than 10% :P not 70%...
At least be partially scientific 70% was a total shot in the dark, and dead wrong.
Here
At least argue that Linux may not have existed without FSF work or something, but dont pretend like FSF work is the only part of the OS these days.
Jeremy
Jeremy
So since a program I use is built exclusively with the GNU toolchain now be called GNU/JeremysProgram ?
Jeremy
Excellent Troll.
So tell me if you implement bits and pieces to form your own Unix does that not become a Unix? Or are you implying that merging several ideas to form your own better tool is not acceptable. So you learn the way to do things on the new system.
Care to provide even anecdotal evidence for your claims about childish messages? How about that steep learning curve, gee wouldn't that apply to any Unix. A little thrashing when moving from one *nix to another is expectd. Anyways most Solaris admins I know just install the GNU toolchain as the first step of the setup process anyhow.
Anyone concerned about data redundancy/safety can use XFS now that it is stable, that argument too is now kind of pointless. Ever heard of consistent backups on top of all of this?
Frequent updates? Minus security updates what operating system does not have frequent updates, *cough* windows? Come on that is stretching it too. Most updates are too external from the kernel software which gets updated on all unices when the updates come out.... If it works dont mess with it tho right?
I am trying to find any reason or truth in your arguments and im coming up short. Any good Unix admin is going to cost you, and they can most surely handle any Unix or *nix like operating system. Go play back in the sand box now.
Jeremy
I wonder if D will continue to have parameterized types? Hmmmn.
Jeremy
I notice one peculiar thing that perhaps is a slip up on breathds part. He still refers to himself a couple of times in the article as a cartoonist. Or includes himself within the group or cartoonists. It is interesting to note that he is retired yet still includes himself as one of "them" :). I suppose once a cartoonist always a cartoonist.
He totally underrates himself, he got a pulitzer for his cartoon work, which as he pokes fun at was probably not an easy feat by any means.
Jeremy
:)
:)
:)
:)
:)
How many people do you think really cant drive a stick?
Me and my GF are really into mustangs and I got her hooked on a manual. I even like my manual in traffic
I have a Z-Rated T5 in my stang, I think at 70 im doing about 1.7K RPMs in my daily driver.
I love real muscle cars and keep all but one of my (I only have three) mustangs stock. It is actually great fun to build up a later models mustang due to the large fan base and available parts --ok-- that kind of takes the fun out of it but for the lazy its fun.
I restored a 64 1/2 too and would have nothing to do with automatic tranmission
There are still some folks out there who like manual trannies..
I know a lot of people look down upon mustangs with great disdain, but im really into classic cars and mustangs for the fun of it not because my care is more 1337 than j00rs
Jeremy
Assuming the airplane can fly within range of such a high flying object...
/. military strategist.
Fly up, launch AAM, game over.
Jeremy -- An armchair
PostgreSQL already allows for inheritance in the DB, so it loosely is already object oriented... :)
Jeremy
Choose your battles.
It really was political and a case of choosing his battles wisely.
Im not sure of any upcoming issues that are more important than this one but he didnt really make anyone too upset which means he has not alienated the majority of folks.
Its a good idea to pick the fights you really want to fight and go with the flow for the rest. He has three years and some change left at least.
Jeremy
Yep, Its true using JavaScript for validation has definite flaws.
/Application/ not just a website the overall effect of carefully used JavaScript is beneficial. Yes you can just throw more hardware at the problem but with a properly designed and documented system implementing the validation is the last and easy step to the entire process.
/. crowrd are tough to sell on js from all the popups and just turn it off. People fight it tooth and nail some of the time. Oh well.. client side scripting has its uses and the sooner people realize that the easier it gets. No its not anything special and no I still don't trust the client data EVER without server side validation. For the effort it takes to write the JS in most cases it far outweighs not having it. But your right, most people dont design nor document. But when that question has come up I could prove that the time invested gave enough benefits and return on the time invested that it was very much worth it. Of course im blessed to have co-workers and developers that understand the wonders of actually designing something :)
No it is not the greatest
Yes it takes more time to develop and maintain two totally seperate languages for data validation.
I have sat down and thought about it quite a bit and had quite a few technical reviews over it.
The overall consensus is that for an
Of course there have been situations where I nixed JavaScript of any sort (highly used websites that handled a good bit of e-commerce). Its different and of course one off the wall comment of mine doesnt solve or prove anything. It requires a well designed and analyzed development plan with a competent development team to effectively utilize when to use a technology and when to not use a technology. To offhand say, "You cant possibly do that for nearly the same cost" is of course asinine as you noted. Documentation and Design are wonderful things. I can pass my design document off to the HTML/UI guys and the validation takes them at most an hour client side to implement properly. Same goes to the backend/middleware people.
In most situations the JS is not required but is there if the user can utilize it. For an intranet oh well if you don't like it. JavaScript has DEFINITE advantages in terms of user interface design. I know a lot of people especially the
We are in the business of writing software and are don't even think of it in terms of a website anymore. The difference in culture and development methodology is striking compared to a typical web development shop.
Jeremy
First, Javascript is a good idea. The language is small easy to use and gets the job done.
Second the implementation in current browsers leaves a little to be wanting.
Lets talk about the merits of the language if we are going to slam it. Do not talk about a language being inherently good or bad OR the implementation of the LANGUAGE being good or bad if you are just going to be critical of the stupid things people do with JavaScript.
People do stupid things in ANY programming language on ANY platform EVERYWHERE.
I am not sure what the point was to your post other than to be sarcastic or funny.
Any web developers worth a grain of salt knows that you can't trust data from the client. For every bit of JavaScript data validation I have written there is a nice set of validation routines the data is put through ON the server.
I think inexperienced developers may put the work to the client exclusively but this again has nothing to do with the merits or flaws of JavaScript as a language IMO.
I have been using client side validation for as long as I have developed web applications (almost five years now). When people use our intranet we require them to use JavaScript. Why? It enhances the user experience enough that the use of JavaScript is justifiable. 999/1000 times the client is not trying to hack you. What does it hurt to do a little client side validation. This will get 99% of your bad data. Then you ship it to your server validation routines and it all goes smoothly. No extra trips back to the client/server just to validate the data and get the required information in the proper format... all done in one trip to the server. This not only makes an application more robust it makes the application feel smoother for the end user.
My point being people complain about JavaScript when truly they are complaning about the implementations of other developers, Not the browser implementation and Not the actual language itself. It is just easier to say its all crap and ignore it and blame other developers for being idiots right?
Jeremy
I agree. I don't need a lot of "gadgets" or anything. I got rid of my cellphone and never looked back for a moment. Being married to so much technology can get to you. Granted my workstation has a clock embedded into the far end of the taskbar I have avoided a watch for the same philosophy. We live in a time where there is much less time and I can't be bothered with a cell phone and a watch and feeling so rushed and that the tech is taking over.
I develop software for a living and find that even the geekiest of geeks need an escape. I carry a PDA around for the utility. I never have trouble slipping it into my pocket with very little visibility. Khacki's or dress clothes are my attire. If I can't fit it into my pocket I dont need it. What ever happened to doing business without a cell phone. People are so married to the damn things its insane. I remember this thing called voice mail. It works SO well. You can even deal with people when your ready! It is amazing.
The exception being a sysadmin, but even then.. a beeper suffices.
Leave the cellphone at home for a week or two! Get a nice voicemail system you can access anywhere (IE: with the telco) you will be amazed at how much more free you feel for the sacrifice of a SMALL slight amount of convenience.
Even if you have a cell for long distance/regular phone use it can still stay at home!
Jeremy
"Preachin' to anyone who will listen"
One word for any bodily functions requiring one to sit in a scary place... hover. It works. :P
Think Quake I
ID releases the source but say hey if you want to do something with this and DONT want to release the source contact us.
Sure you CAN pay id for a special license if you dont like the GPL, if they will give you a new lic.
Think about it its my software I can release it GPL up to version 1.0 and then say oh 2.0 is proprietary. You can take V1.0 and do whatever you want under the terms of the GPL, but 2.0 you have ot follow whatever lic I choose.
Jeremy
The civil war was only partly about slavery. History 1Oh1 pretty clearly points out the reasons the civil war began. Nothing is EVER black and white like, a war is over slavery and one man freed the slaves.
I realize your point by saying that but nothing is ever black and white. So, point taken but I still think its self contradicting to say something like that. Of course I have nothing to back that up but my assumptions about the poster so that too can be refuted.
Jeremy
I give everything a healty challenge. I dont just offhandedly believe anything. There comes a point where common sense should take over.
Jeremy Allen
It was humor.. cynical but still just humor, not serious.
Jeremy
I know I know.. this is a troll
I should know better.
But oh well
If you truly believe that you are simply a hypocrite.
If proof of anything that has happened must exist for you to believe then you are in a sad state of affairs.
Beyond the immediate past where those living can tell us of it all we have is history books and historians to tell us of our past. If we do not as a whole society learn and collect wisdom and use this wisdom to prevent the past there will be no society and this party line of "I need proof to believe it" is simply a troll.
Think about it.
p.s. Forgive my grammar I was rather blown away by that figure. My 2 year old cousin speaks more clearly than that! :P
Jeremy
WOW!
Four to Sixteen cents???!
As an author I can definitely say that Book writers make a LOT more than that per work sold! A beginner author could make 3-5 bucks a book sold EASY.
That is a total rip-off. Granted a good artist is gonna sell a million copies easy..
If book sells just 20,000 copies (Not many at all) thats quite a few pennies...
Heck technical authors are even replaceable! You cant replace a pop star as easy you have to create a new one..
RIAA has quite the scam going.
Jeremy
I agree the heart of the issue can be put in a legal light but lets put this in a ethical sense.
I have a link in my e-commerce engine that goes to a site that I have partenered with. Unbeknownst to the user some third party is modifying my content without their knowledge beofre they have the chance to go to my partners site the link is clicked. BOOM, they are whisked away to a competitors site.
I think that chain of events just described violate so many principles of right and wrong it is not funny.
How would you like it if you wrote an article and all your links were magically altered and people started filling up your in box with flames because the links were all to some pron site?
This is NOT etihical. It is like the Gnome people buying the keyword for KDE on google minus the fact that you can tell its an advertisement!
Scary
Jeremy
If it hurts your revenue stream due to a damaged reputation I would say its a little worse than "ethically shady"
Jeremy