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Dell Drops Linux on Desktops and Laptops
aclute sent in a bit saying that Dell is dropping Linux from desktops and laptops. They cite low demand, and they plan to continue shipping Linux on the server. I've sworn off Dell PCs since their finance dept. tried to screw me over on the laptop I leased for a few years in college (No, we never got that laptop back. Nor can we explain why you have signed confirmation that it was delivered. You owe us a year's worth of late fees). Frankly there are much less expensive places to get a Linux laptop, but those suckers with the 1600x1200 screens and the GeForce 2 video card are still super pimp.
Ok, so how does this work? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is exactly whats wrong with this forum. The level of hypocrisy here is big enough to choke a whale. Microsoft spreads FUD, it makes them evil. Slashbot user posts FUD, it's Insightful. Let the karma whoring begin.
My research group at school ordered a bunch of machines from Dell with LINUX pre-installed. These were expensive machines (cost > $3K) and we ordered 3 to start. One machine worked, the other 2 had messed up ethernet cards which we replaced ourselves.
Then we ordered another 3 machines only 2 of which ever arrived. Apparently Dell shipped us machines with video cards that weren't supported by the version of RedHat Linux they pre-installed. Repeated calls to Dell's tech support never turned up working drivers or convinced Dell to send someone out to fix the problem. Often when I called Dell tech support and asked for help they answered my questions with things like "what is Linux?" or "sorry, if you install a different OS than what we ship then we can't give you tech support."
I can't believe how difficult they were especially considering we had already spent around $15 K and were planning to spend another $15 K.
I will never by anything from Dell. In fact, based on other experiences I've had with buying computers online I would recommend people to never buy a computer online. Find a local store and have them build it for you. It might be $50 more, but if it doesn't work you can walk in the store and get them to fix it. If you order online it is far too easy for the vendor to ignore your phone calls and emails.
after some friends and the computer press had informed me that they were the bomb
Somebody set up you the Dell Laptop!!
I work at a Dell manufacturing facility (portables), and I have to agree that demand for Linux systems was very low. Lately I haven't seen any systems calling for Linux. Several months ago, when Linux demand seemed to peak, I was only seeing maybe 8 or 9 Linux systems per 10,000 produced. While I was glad to see that Dell offered Linux, I couldn't see how they were making any money off of Linux. Now that times are tight in the computer industry, I'd much rather see them cut Linux to cut costs rather that cutting someone's job.
I'm not to keen on Dell to begin with, always running into hardware problems. The clincher was their large campaign contributions to George W. Bush that finally pushed me over the edge..... As for Linux pre-installed, I'd rather do the work myself.
Linux faces a bleak future. In fact there may be no future at all for Linux because Linux is dying. Things are looking very bad for Linux. As many of us are already aware, Linux continues to lose market share; red ink flows like a river of blood. Slackware Linux is perhaps the most in endangered. Let's look at the numbers.
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MandrakeSoft's CEO Henri Poole states that there are 70000 users of Linux-Mandrake. How many users of Debian GNU/Linux are there? Let's see. The number of Linux-Mandrake versus GNU/Linux posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. The refore there are about 70000/5 = 14000 GNU/Linux users. Slackware posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of GNU/Linux posts. Therefore there are about 7000 users of Slackware. A recent article put RedHat Linux at about 80 percent of the Linux market. Therefore there are (70000+14000+7000)*4 = 364000 RedHat Linux users. This is consistent with the number of RedHat Linux Usenet posts.
Now Linux companies are consolidating, overhauling their business plans, laying off staff, scaling back expansion plans and pushing back profitability schedules. "It would seem there are too many distributions for the market to bear," said Gartner analyst Tom Henkel. (http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,26
Red Hat, Inc., the leader in developing deploying and managing open source linux solutions, announced on a reported basis, a net loss of $24.2 million. (http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-
Turbolinux, based in Brisbane, Calif., a Linux-based software provider has withdrawn a $60 million initial public offering "in light of current market conditions." (http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010320/n20215287_2.html) (http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2001/03/20/deals/ipo/)
Clayton-based Linuxgruven.com, a Linux training and service company with 106 employees, laid off 100 employees (http://stlouis.bcentral.com/stlouis/stories/2001
Lineo withdrew its initial public offering in January. Caldera Systems delayed the acquisition of Santa Cruz Operations' Unix software by a quarter. Linuxcare laid off dozens in February, with Linuxcare co-founders Dave Sifry and Dave LaDuke are among those departing. VA Linux Systems cut 114 people in February and delayed its expected profitability by nine months. (http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,26
Due to the troubles of Corel, abysmal sales and so on, Corel Linux is going out of business and was nearly taken over by Microsoft who sell another troubled OS. Owing to the GPL, SuSE is laying off almost all of its US staff. Major marketing surveys show that Linux has steadily declined in market share. Even LinuxWorld.com shut down "because of the economy and everything else" (http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/03/13
TuxRacer going closed source and commerical shows how, when it comes down to money, Linux doesn't cut it.
Linux is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Linux is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyists (i.e. those who dabble with Minix, Xinu, etc). Linux continues to falter. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Linux is dead.
I didn't feel they were serious about GNU/Linux. I think it was more of a market ploy. IBM may not be perfect, but at least they give back to the community in the way of good documentation, supporting their hardware, etc. That's why I bought a Thinkpad. I'd rather do business with someone who thinks my views are valid, and shows me their support with actions, than someone who doesn't believe in the ideals of the Linux world but is willing to make a quick buck off them.
And how much more effort does it take to pop in a Redhat CD to load a Linux image as opposed to popping in a Windows CD to load a windows image? This is probably because they want to use cheaper hardware... They probably want to use WinModems, WinLCDMonitor, WinSoundcard, Winkeyboard, WinMouse, WinPowerSwitch, and WinPowerCable. That way, they could make a Laptop for $35 and still sell it for $5000! That'll really push up those profit figures (until the warranty repairs start flooding in).
Michael Dell blows goats. And he chortles. And GODDAMNIT....I WON'T TOLERATE CHORTLERS!
Right now it is way too early for large manufacturers to start to ship with these.
Quite frankly I was surprised they had started to do it in the first place. Linux is a fully capable OS, with 8 years of experience I think it's safe to say so. However, the plain truth is that most people who are going to buy a computer from a Dell or a Gateway seem more likely to not be interested in a UNIX operating system.
And no, I am not intending to troll or insult Gateway/Dell consumers, it's just that someone who is more likely to be installing a unix operating system is well versed in the art of the computer and more likely would buy their machine by the part and put it together.
Fuck Ajit Pai
Actually, I'm trolling for AC's.
Fuck Ajit Pai
Well, if you looked close enough and compared the prices of a latitude with Linux installed or Windows installed - you would have seen that with Linux it would costs you MORE...
So if I was in that situation - I would order it with windows, resize the Windows partition to the minimum (you never know when you need it), and install manually Linux - it's not that hard with the Dell notebooks..
Hetz (Heunique)
Bah. Linux is *not* too difficult to install to become mainstream for techies. One simply has to be a bit careful about the hardware they buy. Check the compatibility lists. Search Google (web and Usenet). If you have hardware that doesn't work right with Linux, then of course you're gonna have install trouble. But the info is out there. Use it!
---
The Slashdot description isn't accurate. Dell is only dropping their Linux business desktop and laptop offerings. They are keeping their Linux workstations and servers. This makes sense as they have had little demand for business desktops. People shouldn't expect them to pursue a market which doesn't provide profit.
I work for a DOE lab where I have been using Dell systems for years and have been VERY happy with their quality and support. I have been putting Linux on Dell systems for years before they sold them pre-configured. Matter of fact, Dell was quietly selling pre-installed Linux on their systems to DOE labs for almost two years before they offered it commercially. In any case, we have our own Red Hat based distro we image our systems with so it doesn't matter to us.
The only true help Dell has been to us is in writting the drivers for the Adaptec RAID chipsets that they use on (and have imbedded on) some of their servers.
First, they did next to no effort to sell computers with preinstalled Linux. Unless you really badly wanted to buy a PC with Linux, you would never notice that this is possible. Second, they did not offer Linux-Mandrake as an option. Ahem... On a desktop, what else would you install? Yeah sure, for a geek debian will do, but a geek will not buy at Dell anyway. At least HP has a clue here...
As long as they still support Linux on their desktops and laptops, I'm sure this won't be much of an issue.
Will they ship a laptop or desktop without an OS?
I'm using nvidia's drivers on a 1400x1050 inspiron 8000 with GeForce2 go, SuSE 7.2 and it works great, but I had to mess with the modeline settings. email me and I'll send you my XF86Config.
:(
:(
Caveats: can't restart X without rebooting
Quake3 crashes (I'm not sure why)
(if anyone has had success with quake3 using nvidia's latest drivers on GeForce2 go please let me know)
Actually I can run X in 3 different ways on this machine, useful in different situations..
1. native linux with nvidia drivers (fastest)
2. VMware under w2k with VMware's drivers
3. Exceed running on w2k talking to linux running under VMware (allows most interaction between w2k & X)
So, if you have a problem with nvidia's drivers I recommend options 2 or 3. VMware runs linux at about 85% native speed, it works great (you need lots of RAM though). I set up my linux partition to be accessible either under VMWare or running in native mode, so you don't waste any disk space to allow both options.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Has anyone here successfully run quake3 under linux with one ?
;~/
I have one, and nvidia's drivers work fine, X runs nice and fast, other 3d apps (OpenInventor etc) run ok, but quake3 crashes X. If I could run quake3 on this puppy, it'll probably waste enough time to stop me accomplishing anything, please help me waste my life
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
I'm not surprised they gave up.
I spent a lot of time trying to buy a Linux box from Dell (since I already have some with Windows, I wanted to stick with one vendor). In almost every configuration the boxes were MORE expensive than identical models with Windows. Configuration options were lacking, and the standard hardware (video cards, etc) wasn't anything to write home about.
So I gave up and bought from someone else.
I myself use Debian, and I love it, but it is a pain to install because it doesn't have any sort of hardware auto-detection. I would bet money that any other modern distribution would auto-detect both your video and sound, and if your modem isn't a win-modem it would nail that too.
You might try Progeny, if you really want a Debian based distribution, but I would suggest simply installing RedHat.
I swear Dell started offering machines with Linux back in 1999.
For those of us who have been around a while, Dell used to ship their own version of Unix SVR4 back in the early 90's.
Unix is nothing new to them, they just haven't had much success selling it.
Ok... You are aware that you aren't supposed to stand on laptops in order to reach up on the bookshelf right?
:)
We once had a user that did that. Stood on his laptop bag in order to reach up on a bookshelf.
The damage you describe is identical... bad display, busted keyboard.
Warranties are supposed to cover manufacturing defects. Not user stupidity.
I think this is not just a very bad idea for Dell because I'm an avid Linux user, but because you have to stick with Linux in the long run. Sure, Linux systems might not be flying off the shelves, but as Linus did with Linux years ago, you have to offer the choice.
Even if Dell didn't display that it could install Linux in huge red letters on their site, they could still make it an option if the user so requests. That way they can be known for offering the choice and I think that merits respect from a lot of people, including me.
--
Scott Miga
suprax@linux.com
Pandering to the gangsta crowd now, are we?
t_t_b
--
I think not; therefore I ain't®
I'm on PJ's "enemies" list! Are you?
When you went to their web site, trying to order a Linux machine, you'd find that the older models, not the newest ones, had Linux offered. Worse, they'd offer things like NVidia cards for display adapters for these machines and Matrox G400's for the NT/W98 machines. Matrox had better 2D and working 3D support at the time that those machines were shipping out.
I don't really think they put any serious effort into this as they claimed (and Michael Dell wanted)- for whatever reason.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
They're selling piece parts from outfits like Acer, Quanta, etc.
Find a vendor that's using similar/identical motherboards, etc.- but then, that's the rub, ain't it? Strictly speaking, there's nothing magic about Dell, Compaq, etc. for laptops- they're just known for "better" support (As we know from the "Customer Support HOWNOTTO", that's almost an outright lie- at least unless you're an enterprise level customer...).
Pick the best priced laptop, with the best overall construction, and the best overall feature design- there's comparable units out there and they don't have to have the exact innards of the Dell models.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Are you sure you're not the same?
- People hiding behind anonyminity just to make personal jabs suck...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
It'd be pimp if a) you could restart the X server without locking the machine solid and b) NVIDIA would finally get a clue, admit that the bloody GPU rag goes along with documenting how said GPU works (IOW, would you buy a CPU for which there's no technical documentation?)
Where the hell are you paying $60 for a 3com NIC?! Either you live far from civilization or you're just getting fucked, cuz I see the 3com 905c retail for around $30 everywhere I go in Vegas.
I wonder if it cost that much more because of that "free" win98 upgrade?
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
So expect less than open hardware to be installed on Dell Laptops and Desktops.
http://windows.scares.us
I second that, toshiba laptops are gems. I've had dell, and IBM and had problems with both, my toshiba has been quiet and well behaved with NO problems for nearly 9 months now. hmmm maybe a problem will be born soon :)
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
but as a former Dell customer their support sucked. I am not sure who they payed to write the support review for them but the support technicians were clueless in the extreme, and often spent more time checking serial numbers and paperwork to be sure you were entitled to their INEPT support than they did actaully attempting to support you. I think you would have just as much luck calling the psychic friends network as you would with DELL support.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I just need a decent sub for M$ Excel :( and that lousy M$ Project....
I use star office for word pro. and it works great but I still have to reboot to view any sort of multi-sheet or formula driven spread sheet.
Make the full set of tools available and I'd love to give M$ the long kiss good-bye.
We use linux for ALOT of server implementations but very few people use it as a sole desktop due to the constant reboot need
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Have you ever tried to order a laptop with linux installed? You had to have a certain config...you couldn't add a larger hard drive or add any other option to it. And if you just got one of their other laptops and installed linux on it, and *if* you had a problem with the laptop (even a dual boot system) and called their tech support for an obvious hardware problem, they claimed the problem was because Linux was installed. Basically they wouldn't talk to you until you only had windows on it.
It doesn't surprise me one bit that they had low demand for their linux pre-installed systems. Personally I feel they did it to be a part of the linux bandwagon, never really wanting to have much part of it.
"If you insist on using Windoze you're on your own."
I really do not want to start a flame war but I have recently had a bad
interaction with Dell and I want to make it known. I figure the only way
they will improve things is if their lack of training and communication
within their tech support gives them a bad reputation and the only way
that will happen is if people actually know how they work. So here goes.
The first problem I had with my laptop (Dell Inspiron 3800) was
the keyboard. the '8ik,' diagonal of keys did not respond unless the keys
were pressed with unusual force. This was fixed in 2 days by a dell
representative in Pittsburgh, as covered by my warranty.
The second problem came a few weeks later, when the power became
erratic. They replaced the AC adapter and then the motherboard. Again,
fairly fast. I was OK with this.
The keyboard broke within 2 weeks. I decided to ignore it. I note that I
have found I know 7 other dell laptop owners and 6 have had the same
problem at least once. A few weeks later one of the mouse buttons
broke. I called in to get them fixed. Dell rep #1 noticed I had a lot of
problems with my system and offered to send me a newly built
computer if I had any more problems. The Pittsburgh dell representative
was supposed to call me and set up the keyboard/mouse repair.
That night my memory card broke. I checked to make sure it was a hardware
problem by swapping it to another Inspiron laptop owned by a friend. I
called into rep #1 and he said he would not schedule the memory card fix
until the keyboard/mouse fix was done. He thought the first might fix the
second. (??) I was supposed to call him once the
Pittsburgh tech guy came in. He would not talk about the exchange he'd
promised.
The Pittsburgh representative did not call that day. I called into rep #1
and left several messages.
He did not call back.
Meanwhile, I got myself another person on the dell support line. He told
me the best thing to do would be to send my system in and have it
tested. It would take 5-7 days max because if the problems were severe
they would send me a newly built machine. This seemed reasonable. The
only tricky part was since I was headed to Maine after finals I had to get
the airborne tag the day my computer was fixed so I could track where they
sent it (no street addresses where I live). This was a bit of a hassle
since it takes somewhere between 15 and 40 minutes on hold to talk to a
dell technician. But I decided it was tolerable.
The first two people I talked to over the next few days told me that the
system was under test. The problem had not yet been found.
The third person agreed to email the tests which were being done. I
wanted to make sure progress was being made. He did not even write down
my email address (I later found out it was not in the system)
The fourth person agreed to call me with the progress. He noted to me
that my system was marked as being fixed out of warranty so it would take
a bit longer. Apparently though my warranty covered in-home repair, it
did not cover me sending in my laptop. This representative told me should
not have been advised to send it in.
He called back the next day to tell me they did not actually know where my
computer was. It had never gotten to the proper warehouse. I leave it to
you to figure out why the first three people told me it was there and
being worked on
At this point I asked to talk to a manager. I got the floor supervisor,
and
explained the situation. He explained that neither he, nor anyone else,
would do anything until the following Tuesday. It was the Friday before
new years. Because I had brought the airborne receipt with me from
Pittsburgh, they did manage to figure out where my laptop was (the wrong
warehouse) but since it was closing in an hour they did not want
to try to get it shipped to the right one in the next three days. He did
promise to do what he could and call Tuesday, by noon.
Tuesday evening, I called back into Dell, as the manager had not called
me. I was told that the thing which should have been done in the first
place was to build me a new machine. The person I was connected to
emailed the depo where my laptop was to see if he could get my hard drive
back so I would not loose all my data. He promised to call back when he
heard from them. I was assured I would have a computer within 5-7 days.
No calls about the hard drive.
4 days later I called in to make sure my computer was getting shipped
out. There was no computer being built -- the order had been
cancelled. No one had told me or any of my contacts. I had the person I
was on with order another one to be built for me. He could not get any
improvements added in (after 2 weeks without a computer I was hoping for
some compensation) I should talk to customer service about that. When I
asked to talk to his manager I got disconnected. Despite the fact he had
asked for my number when I called in (exact words "so I can call you in
the case we get disconnected") he did not call back.
I called customer service. No, they could not offer compensation. They
listened to my problems and said I should talk to tech support about an
upgrade.
I called tech support to make sure that the order had been put in
correctly before I lost contact. I was put in touch with the tech support
guy who had set up the initial exchange. He was indeed sorry it was
cancelled and no one had told me. He would call me the next day and make
sure that the new order went through.
And this is where I stand now. I have been missing my computer for over
2 weeks when my warranty says I should get in-house repair within 2
days. It looks like I will get a new computer built but I have to wait
another 5-7 days, so I will not get it until I am back at CMU.
Half the reason I bought a laptop was so I would not be in Maine and
Vermont for 3 weeks without a computer. Due to the repeated incompetence
of the Dell technical support I did not have a laptop over break. The
representatives I spoke to did not know what they were allowed to
authorize or what their departments were allowed to do -- they referred me
around or promised things and then ignored my messages when they could not
deliver. They did not understand computers -- I do not understand how
anyone working in tech support could think replacing a mouse button would
fix a hardware problem in a memory card. They did not keep contact with
me or follow up on their jobs.
I am sure there are people who have dell computers and have no problems
with them. But if you do have a problem, you may have to face weeks with
no computer, and hours on hold daily, trying to figure out where it
is. They still have not found my laptop, which means even when I do get a
computer back I lose all the data I did not back up. Much as I hate junk
mail forwards, I'd really appreciate people sending this on to friends and
family who are in the market for computers. From talking to people after
I got my Dell I have a low opinion of their hardware, and from my
experiences their support is terrible. Don't buy Dells.
Start Running Better Polls
>What if your boss emails a word or access
> docuement to you on Saturday and demands to have
> it finished by monday?
I'd have one hell of a good laugh on monday when I open the email... Followed by a rundown of my
very high weekend consulting rates and the procedure to follow if I need to be contacted...
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I knew something this would happen. Y'all can bitch about Dell all you want (no, I didn't know that you could get Red Hat desktops or laptops, either), or about people being able to install it themselves, or whatever, but the fact is that this is a minor PR disaster for Linux and for Open Source.
I think the worse part is that the comments from Dell ("the productivity suites just aren't there"..."the biggest growth is on the server") are totally true. Sure, we all think that KOffice and Star Office are just grand, but the average consumer sure doesn't think so.
Hooray to Sun for their recent Gnome recent UI testing, and kudos to KDE and Jono Bacon for their new (less-formalized) UI testing via the KDE Usability Project. Let's hope that the result of this is Dell picking up Linux again in six months.
But in the meantime, let's not fool ourselves: this is bad.
-Waldo
I wonder if they just read the numbers and said "wow, we could sell a lot of AMD chips. Too bad we don't sell them." Compaq on the other hand *has mobile athlon4s ( morgan which as palimino core ) for sell on laptops right now.
I've been using PC laptops for a while. I mostly repair and build from 'parts' systems to afford a new one every 6 weeks. I don't think Dell is an option for a linux lappy from my experenice. Compaqs are so easy to repair and *upgrade, so why bother with Dell anyway. Let's try to get Compaq to sell us Athlon4s with linux. Now if they just have geforce go or something more like radeon on the cheap ones. =)
I called them and asked for a machine with either Linux or no OS. I was told that neither was an option, nor was there any way for me to not pay for Windows. They did tell me which machines were certified to work with Linux, though. This was at least a month ago. Were they ever selling PC desktops with Linux installed?
try here.
How do I know? A friend of mine got his returned board back as a replacement.
As additional inducement, I'm working on my 3rd(!) Lattitude CPx, and it's on the second motherboard. It is a company bought laptop, so I can't really complain too hard about it, until it fails and I toss it back to the internal guys with the threat to expense an iBook on them.
--
Never knock on Death's door.
Ring the doorbell and run
(He hates that).
Dump the IRS - http://www.fairtax.org
Dell also can't get anyone locally to work Linux support for it. They had to outsource all of it. Any Linux-friendly techies got totally burned out at Dell and left circa 1999, and ever since the local Linux crowd has stayed pretty far away from them. (They have a reputation as a bit of a slave driver around here. And we remember the time Bill Gates visited Austin and stayed at Michael Dell's house.) I don't remember who they outsource Linux support to, but if that deal fell through (or the company at the other end went under), they wouldn't have much choice but to pull the plug on Linux support. They CAN'T support it internally.
Rob
Hey Taco, it sounds like your notebook was nabbed by the shipping company. Is this Dell's fault? What are the terms of the agreement? Ever wonder what FOB is? Check your contract for details. Then ask yourself who you would rather believe - the shipping company or some college kid. Yea, I know - it's a toss up. Which benefits Dell most? There's your answer.
As for the dropping of Linux, this is a no-brain decision for Dell. I bet that less than one tenth of one percent of their notebooks and desktops go out with Linux. It's not worth their time. Can we punish them for dropping Linux? I doubt we could make an impact that would affect change until Linux really is ready for the desktop or until some truely killer app (no, not Emacs) requires it.
I chose to get Windows ME instead of Dell's configuration of Linux, for two main reasons.
1) Configuration of linux is important, and not something that I'd give responsibility for to somebody else. Especially with laptops, there are dozens of little things that you'd like to configure yourself to get the machine to be 'just so'. Having somebody else do it the first time forces you to start from a somewhat unknown position. Better a completely blank machine than somebody else's configuration.
2) Windows ME is a good place to check out drivers and hardware. You can plug in your USB CompactFlash card reader, and see if the hardware is compatible (under Windows) before trying to dig up a driver (under Linux). I probably boot Windows at least once a month to do this; most recently when I was trying to get the Lucent winmodem working. (It does work, see http://www.linmodems.org )
I wouldn't be at all surprised if 95% of the Dell laptops running Linux were bought with Windows (it's no more expensive) for exactly these reasons.
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
This doesn't have anything to do with VA. VA just about stopped making workstations fairly early in the game, concentrating on servers. When I last looked at their site before they went out of hardware altogether, VA had only one desktop product remaining.
So this didn't do anything to VA. Even they didn't think of desktops as much of a market.
D
----
I have to wonder whether that's really true any more? Unless you're setting a system up for dual/multi-boot or manually selecting what packages to load, the installation process for most of the latest distributions hardly asks any questions that Joe Sixpack couldn't answer. Unless that timezone question is too tough for Joe. :-) Even partitioning can be fairly automatic. (Not that I'd like the way things get laid out using the automatic method.)
IMHO... not really. Remember, all Joe wants to do is pound out a letter or connect to the internet so he can check out the sports scores (or his stock prices). How much shell programming is required to do that? Sometimes people in the tech realm forget that not everyone is using their PC to write code and tweak Makefiles with vi.
--
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Does it bother anyone else that the ability to purchase a Dell system with Linux appears to have been limited to people who already have a PC and an internet connection? OK, or maybe those who go down to the local library and use their PC and 'net connection? The printed catalogs that I used to receive in the mail never had Linux as an option except for servers.
Of course Dell never sold many Linux desktop systems. Their advertising campaign was so low key that it'd make an NSA security officer jealous.
--
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
If anyone looked at thier configuations for desktop systems, linux was never an option. I was looking for a friend of mine, and there were no systems with a drop-down box with an os choice of linux. I called Dell's sales dept. and was told that you can only get desktop systems with Windows.
After searching for a good hour on Dell's site, I did find their "linux" section, with a system. Perhaps if linux was an actual choice when you called, or went to configure their true desktop sytems, more people would have went for it. You can't sell a product, keep it in the back room, tell people it's not really there, and then stop selling it before "no one bought it when we had it".
For yor wireless card, of course. What's the point of a laptop without a wireless ethernet?
I'm a sad owner of an Inspiron 7500 laptop which was ordered with Red Hat 6.2 installed. It would be a great lap top if all of the hardware worked properly. The PCMCIA devices only like to work at certain low room temperatures or with the right amount of jiggling. And even then their continued function is not guerrentied.
The paradox lies in Dell not standing behind their 3 year parts and labor warranty when your product was purchased with Linux installed. First of all when you call them and they hear you are running Linux they forward you to Linuxcare. Linuxcare is a great company, but they do not get paid by Dell and as such will not help you unless you have bought a support contract from them. It's Dell's policy to not even consider the possibility of hardware failure until all software posibilities have been eliminated and with Linux they won't consider the software directly. As a final result, that hardware warranty Dell forced you to pay for is worthless without a second support contract through Red Hat or Linuxcare.
To get around my problem I simply bought a $30 USB ethernet adapter from Best Buy. It took less time to purchase and install than the time I spent on the phone with Dell and cheaper than buying a second support contract from Linuxcare.
In short Linux users do not need the Dell agrivation. I for one am for ever through with the company and with every chance I get recommend people find an alternative to this company's products. I personally wish Dell had never become involved with Linux so I would never have had to deal with the company's abuse.
Just my $0.02.
You can buy a Macintosh instead. They come straight from the factory with a pretty good quality Unix pre-installed. And it's getting better all the time.
Okay, you might have to fuss a little: the Titanium and the iBook only have one button trackpads, and you *might* have a little trouble adjusting to a GUI that doesn't actively *HATE* you like GNOME and KDE do... "What does the little spider do?" "It bites you if you touch it, that's what."
jhw
It's not as if Dell machines with linux pre-installed cost $90 less.
In effect, you're still be paying for Windoze, just not getting it.
It doesn't matter anyways - linux is free, and widely available.
So Dell's not gonna install it for you anymore.
Most of the people I know (myself included) that run linux prefer to install it themeselves anyways,
so they can be assured of a reasonably stable and secure system.
I'd estimate 90+% of workstations/laptops Dell sells are destined to be windoze boxes,
so it just wasn't cost-effective for them to continue installing linux.
Not as if it matters, because someone clueful enough to consider ordering
a Linux install prolly has the skills to install it themself.
C-X C-S
After sending my Dell Inspiron back twice, and dealing with their lousy ass Linux Support I took a chance and went with QLITech.net
I guess they bought Tuxtops awhile back, not sure..
Their Emperor kicks ass, and does quite well with Q3A. (48FPS@800x600) You just might want to use an external mouse tho.
I was also quite suprised to sse that the Emperor is the same chassis/screen/etc. as the Inspirion 5K. Major coolness.
"Fortune, Fame, Mirror Vain, Gone Insane..... But The Memory Remains...
"Fortune, Fame, Mirror Vain, Gone Insane..... But The Memory Remains...
Dell Customer support, however, I've generally found to be excellent, which was one factor in me deciding to go for one.
My brother had a monitor defect whilst under warranty, and two further 15" monitors supplied to him were also defective, so they upgraded him to a 17" free of charge by way of an apology. [This was when the price differntial was significant]
And my personal experience of thier backup and support has been quite pleasing, although up to now it's only been for Windows systems.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I sent Dell asking whether I could dual boot their laptops into Windows and Linux. Got no response.
Also AFAIK, their UK website made no mention about offering Linux installed on their systems. It certainly didn't appear as a purchase option (Select Operating System:Linux -50UKPounds) when I went through the options in order to buy one.
In short, if you don't advertise or even offer the option on your website, you are unlikely to get any demand.
I don't want to install JUST Linux on my laptop, as I still need Office tools and want to play Diablo II occasionally.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
This is really a non-issue. The only people who could get Linux on a Dell had to know from the beginning that Linux was an option and know where to find the page that allowed them to select it. Dell only offered Linux in the first place as a flimsy token to open source people. Now Microsoft probably used that as a reason to not let Dell stick AOL icons on the desktop or something, so the option is gone. Is anyone really surprised?
== Paul Rickard, Editor of The Microsoft Boycott Campaign ====
Excellent arguments! Did you know the same situation also applies to the internet, too?
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Maybe there should be an OS exchange program? The ide is if you don't like Windows, then you could get a refund for Windows in the form of a Linux ( or maybe another OS ) purchase voucher from Red Hat or one of the other Linux distributors.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
My short-sightedness. Apart from the token-ring and the microdrive my computer has most of the things so I didn't really think of the othe possibilities ( I am not trying to show off ). I am probably also prejudiced by some of the nightmares I have had trying to get PCMCIA devices working with Windows.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
This is even true for a techie. I have a friend who is a Linux competant sys admin and had problems installing Linux on the his Dell Latitude because the PCMCIA slots were causing problems. This he ended up sorting out with a BIOS tweak and going via the 'advanced' installation method. There also was a problem with USB mice until he modified a value in the BIOS. These problems may no longer be an issue with newer versions of Linux installers, but at that point in time it proved to be a big time waster. Had he not been so convinced to get Linux running, I don't think he would have gone the mile.
BTW Once you have built in a built in modem and ethernet port I am not sure what use PCMCIA ports really have? I have removed the blanker cards to allow better air flow.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I would tend to agree with this. Any techies will find a way to install Linux whether it is vendor approved or not. Don't get me wrong I like Linux and use it myself, the problem is that for your average workstation user it just doesn't have the polished edges that it could. At the moment I think of Linux vs Windows, as the mechanic's off road vehicle vs a Ford Echo - sure Windows is not 100% reliable, but it is comfortable and does what the user wants without having to fight too much.
One OS that Linux needs to emulate is MacOS X. Sure the OS still has some maturing to do, but it has given a relativley friendly interface to the Unix underlays. The user needs never use the command line to configure the machine, though if they do it is there ready to be revealed.
I am not wanting to start a flame-war, rather I am trying to give real world view point of the situation. Sometimes it helps to leave the computer alone for a few weeks and see where everyone else is coming from.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I just bought a Dell laptop, but the only way to get the hardware I wanted was to pay the MS tax... They actually offered this machine with Linux installed, but not with any of the options I wanted (they all work great in Linux anyway) and not for the price I wanted to pay. It was $400 cheeper to buy a better machine with Windows installed.
Guess I should look at the bright side. I now have a set of nice hologram covered coasters, still in their shrink-wrap.
On top of that their selection of options was also much poorer (for laptops anyway). I looked into getting one of their laptops with linux preinstalled, and they just didn't have the configuration i wanted available. I suppose its more trouble to set up images for every conceivable combination of stuff that requires drivers, and wouldn't even bother with hardware that doesn't have the most solid driver support, but without that flexibility people like me would just settle on getting a better/cheaper model with windows preinstalled and install their favorite distro manually (which I probably would have done anyway, but the significance of buying the machine I wanted with any flavor of linux would be enough if they had the right machine available).
Time for a new job. The one constant in job satisfaction is the relationship between the manager and the managed. If your boss makes these sorts of unresonable demands, yes that is a VERY unresonable scenario that you described, its time to get a new boss, a.s.a.p.. Unless you like working in your free time and not getting paid, but there are very deserving charities out there that need volunteers way more than you boss does. Don't allow yourself to be used / manipulated / pimped like that.
use Signature::Witty;
The customizer will let you pick between a couple of M$ "options", but not Linux.
You have to (had to) _call_ Dell on the phone and ask them if they would put Linux on it, and the answer to that is (was) "yes". I did not ask about being relieved of/refunded the M$ tax, as I'm sure they would look upon a pre-installed RH as "costing" them at least as much as bundled WinBlooze.
There's nothing like a level playing field to demonstrate "lack of customer demand".
I'm actively in the market for a laptop. I want that huge screen, so that narrows the choices somewhat. I think my eventual decision is going to be based on whose laptop has Linux drivers available for:
1. the internal modem
2. the internal sound hardware
3. the internal 10/100MHz ethernet interface
Seeing as they all have these things, and they're all rather dodgy for Linux drivers. I'm going to make an issue of this, as by the time I pay for all this neato gear (that I can't use) and for WinBloze (that I won't use) and then pay more to replace these with things I _can_ and will use, that laptop starts looking much more expensive than it would be if its imbedded hardware were useful with Linux.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
BTW Once you have built in a built in modem and ethernet port I am not sure what use PCMCIA ports really have? I have removed the blanker cards to allow better air flow.
I find them handy to stuff my CF cards into (with a $10 adapter) and move things to/from the PDA. They'd be useful if you had a CF digital camera, too.
The blanker cards may be intended to insure that the air comes in near something that needs cooling, rather than in through the PCMCIA holes....
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
Model: Dell Inspiron 4000. 256 MB RAM. 10 GB HD. 700-850 MHZ PIII. Some winmodem I really don't care about it.14" TFT screen Debian GNU/Linux 2.2 Potato as the only OS
:Comes without it...
That one's on my short list. I'm willing to go another $75 for the 20G disk, but the step to $30G is too much.
the internal modem: I was told from a friend that its possible to use some linux winmodem drivers to use it. No personal experiences
The "Gold Card Modem" listed in their options costs a little extra, but is worth it to me as it is billed in their 'extra info' as having DOS support. That's a pretty good indicator of a "real" modem, but I'm _still_ going to ask them about this. I'm not buying a machine with an imbedded LoseModem, why should I pay for that?
the internal sound hardware. No problem at all. ESS Maestro 3 support in 2.2.19
That's a comforting thing to hear.
the internal 10/100MHz ethernet interface
Right, you get ethernet either with the modem options (no DOS support for either eth/modem combo) or seperately, for which they want too much. I've had 3 good experiences with Linksys PCMCIA ethernet cards from BestBuy & RadioShit (which think they're NE2000s and which the CardServices module makes hot-pluggable!) so that's what I'll probably use.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
Is that still in production?
If so, I haven't found it on IBM's website (yet).
The closest I've come to the configuration discussed above at IBM has been about a T21p, which costs like $3000!
Now, I'd truly love to support IBM in their Linux crusade, but c'mon, a 50% premium is a little stiff. I'm sure the T21 is a very nice machine, and I oughta try to get a look at one, because its construction may (partially) warrant that price tag.
Inspiron 5000e? Nice, a bit heavy, but out of production..
The Apple powerbook, now, there's a screen! And in a fairly thin, lightweight package, too. (try & find a 15" UXGA 1600x1050 laptop under 7.+ pounds!)
Anybody know if I can get SO5.2 for MacOS X?
Or for the G4 Linux port, either?
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
I too was impressed by the TiBook's format, but disappointed by a maximum resolution of 1152x760. I want more than that. Even the 14" systems I'm considering have to have 1400x1050. If 1600x900 or so were available on the TiBook I'd have one in my backpack right now. I don't need 802.11.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
I know a few people (including myself) who are either having problems with the NVidia-provided modules or would rather run BSD or an OS that doesn't work well with Linux-specific kernel modules. Has anyone had any luck getting X to work on these with more generic X 3.x.x or 4.x.x drivers, and if so, please share.
Were you supposed to call the number to get it? I wanted to hopefully get a duel booting computer so I could take full advantage of a DSL connection I'm getting (but I don't want to pay for a full server). I guess I'll just have ME for games and buy a Linux at the store is all.
-Ben
The concept is called the "dollar vote". Spend your money somewhere where the vendor will sell an OS free or Linux loaded PC. They do exist. "Vote" with your purchase in support of these vendors.
Dell is just one (albeit a big one) of thousands of manufacturers. If you don't like their offerings, go elsewhere, or build it yourself!
Take care,
Brian
100% Linux Web Hosting Services, 99+% Uptime Guaranteed!
about a week ago the inspiron 8k also had an option for redhat linux, but a few days ago i checked and it was gone... i can see why, now...
-=[ http://www.legos.org ]=-
i can say why i, at least, wasnt interested. :(
last time i checked, their linux configurations didnt have as many options as the regular windows configs.
lower cpu speeds, smaller screens, etc.
it was a cheapened version in all aspects
i never looked at the desktop offerings though so i cant comment on that aspect...
its sad to see them drop it though, id have preferred getting one with linux (although i will still be getting a dell laptop sometime soon)
-=[ http://www.legos.org ]=-
I was feeling kind of good about supporting Red Hat and a Linux-friendly Dell. Too bad they're cutting their offerings.
The c|net artice says that Dell will continue to offer Linux on workstations. What exactly is the difference between a "workstation" and a "desktop", other than being toward the bigger/faster/more expensive end of the spectrum?
AlpineR
You can still load the distro of your choice once you get it, they just won't be shipping with RedHat any more (a lot of people prefer other distros anyway).
I'm using Mandrake 8.0 on an Inspiron 5000e. Everything works great (sound, video, even DVDs play in Linux) but it doesn't have integrated an modem/nic. For that, I use a dongle-less Xircom card. Unfortunately, Dell seems to have discontinued their 5000/7500 line. The 4000/8000 line has everything you need at a decent price (their latest flyer showed an Inspiron 8000 with PIII-1000, 256MB RAM, 20GB HD, 15" LCD, and DVD for about $2200).
In terms of how much work it would be for an OEM to sell a computer with no OS, you are correct in saying that it's not hard at all. There is of course issue of Microsoft threatening OEMs that they will no longer be allowed to purchase Windows at all if they sell computers with anything except Windows. This was, as you may remember, one of the points in the antitrust case.
Bad example - Dell only sells direct. Dells are not available in stores.
If you can't figure out how to put in a Linux CD Rom, reboot and click a couple keys, you probably shouldn't run linux anyway.
Don't write in this space.
OK
When I tried to buy a Dell with Linux on it earlier this year, I was told that it wasn't possible to buy Linux pre-installed. There were no options on the website (that I could find), and I spoke to two sales people at Dell, both of whome denied Dell sold Linux. They also refused to sell a machine without Windows.
They did say deleting Windows and installing Linux over the top myself was okay though. So I did. The Dell works fine with RH7.0.
I'm a number, not a free man!
- The modem is a Lucent Winmodem, one of the first to be supported, though I never got around to configuring it. I only use 802.11b to an Apple Airport connected to a DSL line.
- Sound hardware: No problem with the ESS Solo - ALSA works great.
- No internal ethernet, alas, but I bought the IBM PC-card ethernet adapter with it, and again, no problems at all. Also have a Lucent Orinoco Wavelan wireless ethernet card - worked out of the box.
Add in the previous two posters' experiences, and you'll see that what you're looking for is almost the norm these days... Personally, I recommend the Apple iceBooks - they're neat! And weigh less than a brick while lasting 5 hours on battery."I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
I third that...I've been using my 333 MHz K6-2 Toshiba laptop for two years now. When I got it, I installed Linux on it, but I had trouble getting my Linksys PCMCIA Ethernet adapter to work properly so I had to switch back to Windoze. That and some of the software packages I need for school (P-SPICE and ZEMAX) are only available on Windows.
I'm looking forward to graduating so that I can live a Microsoft-free life... :->
"It take 9 months to bear a child, no matter how many women you assign to the job."
Nuked my unstable Win2k installation today and replaced it with Mandrake 8.0. Works like a charm, Ethernet card and all. Don't know that anyone cares, but that's alright. ;->
"It take 9 months to bear a child, no matter how many women you assign to the job."
I know this'll never get read, but I HAVE to respond to this...
Let me get this straight - jamming a paperclip into the connections of your computer SHOULDN'T invalidate your warranty?! What planet are you from anyway?
Most warranties are built off the concept of normal use. By inserting an object that wasn't designed to go in there, you're effectively going beyond normal use. If a simple loopback device was needed to test a serial port, then fscking use a loopback device!
My dad, working as a Xerox repair man, ran out of gas on the highway. He happened to have many bottles of ethyl alcohol in the back for cleaning purposes. He poured them into his gas tank so that he could get to the gas station. Worked perfectly. WAS DUMB ENOUGH TO MENTION THIS TO HIS FLEET MANAGER, AND WAS REPRIMANDED FOR IT!
At least have some sense and keep your fool mouth shut.
--Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Dell's refurbished on-line store sells machines without an OS, and some servers can be had sans Windoze. I've purchased a a dozen or so Windoze desktops (new) from Dell. When I needed a SCO server, I configured it (new, not refurb) with no OS and loaded SCO myself. Surf their refurbished store. Notebooks, desktops, servers, some with and some without an OS, but all with a decent warranty. My new Red Hat 7.1 company server was a "No-OS" refurb on which I loaded a store-bought copy of Professional Server with no problems. You can save some good bucks, BUT ya gotta shop just like with anything else, and sometimes surf through DOZENS of similar models with different specs. I'm probably jinxing it, but with all these Dell machines I've had just one bad CD-ROM (tech support shipped a replacement) and a bad embedded network card (I replaced it with a $15 Linksys). Better get back to tweaking that RH7 box. -- jedbone works Madison, Wisconsin
"What if your boss emails a word or access docuement to you on Saturday and demands to have it finished by monday?"
I hear that a few lucky people don't have jobs like this. I don't know if it could be true though.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
>Don't hold your breath on that one.
Oh, I don't know. They may have perfected the mail order PC business, but they're not holding it together all that well. I've said it before.. services, services, services. In the land of microthin margins, product alone doesn't float your company. Yes, I do work for IBM, and we support and provide consulting for Linux on every class of hardware we make, from Internet appliances for kiosks to z390's running 10,000 copies of Linux in a 19" rack. When users will start paying annual fees for XP, and have to buy replacement licenses because they replaced their dead hard drive, Dell's going to wish they had an alternative to offer their customers. "I'm sorry, that's all we offer, sir. Yes, you do have to buy another copy of XP. It was only licensed for your original hard drive."
Dell closed up $1.25 today at $28.43. IBM closed up $1.74 today at $108.80. Whenever there's a "downturn in PC orders", we suffer a $30 drop in our stock price. Dell doesn't have $30 a share to lose. First stop Cisco's share price, next stop Lucent's.
--
Steve Jackson
Intelligent Life on Earth
As paranoid conspiracy theories go, that's a pretty good one. Well done.
:)
I kept thinking that my next PC was going to come from a major manufacturer, with Linux loaded, to help the statistics gatherers. Who else major is selling Linux PC's? IBM? Compaq? Gateway?
And more off-topic conspiracy theories: Anyone noticed the proliferation of Smart-tag and Pop-under/over stories. I think we're in for a sea change in our web browsing experiences. Remember when Wired ran the big 'PUSH!' issue? (What happened to Pointcast? Are they still around?) I think we're shortly going to see a whole bunch of pushy-type things going on. Re-configuring your browser, changing your home page, pop-up windows all over the place.
Might be a selling point for alternative browsers. If the Mozilla coders were to get on the ball and make some easy pre-emptive changes and then tell the world, I could see some big time adoption. It's got to be quick, though. After a while, you just get used to it. When I first came to the US (from Germany), commercials during TV programs annoyed me. Then I got used to it. (Still bothers me when I think about it.)
Gotta get to the annoyed user just as he's getting tired of all the crap on his screen. "Tired of these Pop-Up Ads? Tired of not being in control of your browsing experience? Mozilla's the answer. Easy configuration. We'll even show you how to never see on-line ads again. All for... Free!" Of course, you'd best do it via a pop-up ad.
OK, I'm rambling. Ate too much for lunch.
--
Alex Johns
If you have signed confirmation, then you could have a case in small claims court. Just threatening one could cause them to relent and just replace the darn thing.
Or are we going to see Taco on Judge Judy?
"200+ servers" are not desktops are they Einstein.
I actually got a survey from Dell a few months back asking about AMD... told them that they should definitely offer AMD processors as a choice. Also told them I would have bought my last PC from them if AMD was an option, rather than building my own.
No idea if they will start to ofer them, but it appeared as though they were testing the water.
Uh, if I said desktops in my original post, why would he even bring servers into question. I have no arguement with Linux as a server... but on a commercial desktop? Its not ready, and I rest my case.
I remember when Dell first starting offering Linux. I wanted to buy two servers. I called Dell, told them I wanted to run Linux but, I wanted to check compatablilty. "Can you tell me what IDE, SCSI, and graphics contorllers you use on brand X server?" The sales rep said he'd call me back. He never did.
***
UNIX/Linux Consulting
Now, I doubt (God forbid) that this is typical of Dell service. I think I just caught this guy on a bad day. Also, I can see the logic of not supporting a low-volume (for Dell) OS on newer models. They have to qualify it, which takes time and money. The Optiplex GX400 is a P4 with RDRAM, so it's not just a simple upgrade. Having said that, RH 7.1 really was a slam-dunk install. The 2.4 kernel also has settings for the P4. I rebuilt the kernel with that switched on, but I didn't benchmark it. But today's announcement makes clear that the lack of Linux support wasn't merely a delay, but a hint of things to come. They've decided that Linux sales on the desktop don't justify the additional expense in qualifying the hardware and supporting it post-sale. Is that Dell's fault? Partly, maybe. But I'll bet the decision made sense in cold black, white and red.
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll
get run over if you just sit there." Will Rogers
"Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
So My company bought me a dell inspiron. I was going to one that had linux on it, but the hardware options were totally different; I couldn't get the joe-cool 1600X1200 screen, couldn't get the built-in wireless, couldn't get the badass 32MB DDR Geforce2Go (okay, so maybe I'm bragging a little.) I would have been happy to have bought it with linux on it, but the compromise on available hardware was not acceptable.
I realize the reason why they did this; certification of hardware. I'm sure they would have got quite a few calls about the nvidia driver locking up the laptop when you try to start X more than once without rebooting, but other than that, everything works great on RH 7.1 (DVD/CDRW combo, integrated mini-pci wireless, SWEET 1600X1200 display.) Perhaps they just didn't want to go through the effort of certifying hardware, making it a bare-bones laptop instead of going through the trouble.
Now, if only I could get the volume buttons to work...
I dont see any real computer company actually seriously selling Linux on their user level computers any time soon. This is not a troll, but most users dont want Linux.
I totally agree with that. It's exactly why I like Linux so much. Right now, Linux is made for people who know what they're doing and demand total control, and that's all I can ask from an OS. The only way Linux can make it into the mainstream is to become at least as dumbed-down and full of security holes as Windows, at which point I'd probably start looking for alternatives. But I don't think that will ever happen, as most Linux developers have power and security as primary design goals, not what has come to mean "ease of use" nowadays.
Tux bent them over and gave it to them good and hard.
.au number, with SEVEN GRAND on standby, to see if they could either supply me with an i8000 1600x1200 with no OS, Linux or at least what their stance was on the Microsoft Tax (tm) refund.
I TRIED. I rang the morons at Dell's
In Chinese English worse than that of my local laundromat, I was answered with "Lin ux?", with a long pause, this chick who had bloody awfull English skills came back and mentioned something about only RedHat Linux working on the i8k. Yeah bullshit, anyway...
There is still no option on thier web site for a Linux laptop and although I only went there like, oh once a day for months watching prices tumble, I've never seen a Linux option besides their servers.
Looks like I will have to look elsewhere. MacOS X is looking pretty slick on one of those Ti booky things.
Sorry, but I am really pissed off, and Dell has lost my money.
"Low demand" indeed. I rang, and how many others, who were also greeted with "Lin ux?".
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
Of course, the basic issue is that you have to buy an operating system with their desktops and laptops, and probably most of their servers. I like their hardware. I just don't like their business partners.
Daniel Crawford
- Geeks buy LINUX. (Generalization, I know)
- Geeks deal with computers better than people (more generalizations), so they would order over the Web.
- Web ordering never allowed LINUX as an OS pick for desktops.
- Geeks never ordered LINUX.
Thank you. Please drive through.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
The main problem with this scenario is if Dell forces its customers to eat the Mickeysoft tax, which I believe it does.
If they don't want to sell Linux, then fine, ship the box without Windows. If they actually install Windows just to test the damn thing, then they could wipe out the MBR and partition table afterwards.
What, and buy a Naked PC? (warning, that page linked is huge!)
No, you probably don't want to...
I still have my Inspiron 3200 - though it's about time for a new one. It was cutting edge at the time... PII/233 with 4gig... it was really cool, but that damn thing was so hot it just about lit on fire after a little while at 100% load. It's just too old to do anything I want it to (sucks at gaming, too small to triple-OS it, etc) and thus I'm going to be in the market for a new laptop in the near future. The support I've had from Dell has been fantastic to say the least (best repair policy I've ever dealt with), and I would never consider any other laptop maker... oh yeah, except for one thing.
WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO START MAKING AMD LAPTOPS?
I'm all for their power line with the Geforce2, too much RAM and HD, etc... but I would MUCH rather purchase an AMD-based laptop for oh-so-many reasons (not the least being performance-per-$$). I'm sure they're bound by some piece of paper they signed at some point in the past... but this is the main reason I haven't ALREADY bought a new laptop from Dell.
I don't consider Dell not including Linux on laptops a big story... I'd much rather do it myself so I can triple-partition and get WinNT, Win9x and Linux on the same laptop. But when are they ever going to wise up and start including AMD processors in their laptops? Is there something fairly obvious I'm missing here?
Bought an Inspiron 7500 a year or so back and they told me I couldn't get RH installed on it. Fine, I'd prefer to install it "correctly" myself anyway. They wouldn't even send with a clean disk and relieve me of the M$ tax. I didn't mind paying the price I did, just didn't want any of it going to Bill. Why pay him for something I'll just end up deleting.
It's a great machine, a tank, but a good development/server alternative for the road. Also love their workstations, mines been running linux and ms-free for the past 3 years. Never had a problem.
Michael Dell heard from their Microsoft rep that if you install Linux on a PC, you can no longer sell the PC - you have to give it away for free because of the GPL.
---------------------------------------------
SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't bother... every Dell laptop I've ever seen (and I've seen plenty, my company uses them) is visibly slower than a comparable IBM or Sony when using the same CPU.
.technomancer
Dell's offering linux pre-installed on desktops and laptops was nothing but an attempt to gain publicity. Now that linux isn't pulling headlines, they're dropping support...
.technomancer
(Are you getting paid overtime to work on the weekend?)
I just don't buy the attitude that my manager is my "boss" - if s/he makes unreasonable demands I let him/her know, and loudly. They can just as well distribute that document in HTML (hell, or even PDF) so everyone can read it.
But I just wouldn't take a job that required me to use Windows. They're paying me a shitload of money to be a Unix guy, and a Unix guy is what they're getting.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
That's really weird. I've been running a dual boot win98/mandrake and had a bunch of stuff fixed and they've never complained about seeing LILO on bootup.
"To save the planet, I had to go to the worst spot on Earth, and that was Philadelphia." -- Sun Ra
mean, what's a Windows Me license running these days? $100? On a sub-$1000 system, that's a *big* chunk of your total system price.
No, they get huge OEM discounts for pre-installed licenses. I don't have any figures but I wouldn't be surprised if it were in the order of $20-$30. That also explains why it's a limited license you get instead of a general-purpose WinME license.
Mmmm.. Donuts
I dont see any real computer company actually seriously selling Linux on their user level computers any time soon. This is not a troll, but most users dont want Linux. Also, the people who do probably wont want to run the distro on it. The only thing it really has going for it it because it would be certified to work. Anyways, it would be better just to sell the systems without operating systems or provide Windows refund checks for these desktops and laptops.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
"Although it is a very limited selection. "
I am not sure if you understand what the term seriously means.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
Me too. When I requested a box with no OS or with Linux pre-installed the sales rep. said she had no idea what I was talking about and said it couldn't be done.
ATI Rage Mobility seems to work with XFree86 4.0, but you might want to search google yourself for details. Asking tech support to fix your Linux box is like asking a fish to ride a bicycle.
Got a Dell laptop. They first billed me twice, on my credit card, putting me over my limit fortunately, so I detected the problem quickly when the bank notified me. Rang Dell, they didn't know what happended and refused for some time to do anything about it. About a week later, the amont mysteriously disappeared from the account again though, but without any explanation from Dell. It was billed once from Singapore, and once from Australia.
Now, the laptop harddrive makes some worrysome sounds (in the Zip-drive "click of death" fashion - sounds like the heads are crashing), and got the drive replaced. The new one does it too, and makes occasional grinding sounds (One other person I know of has the same problems). Have encountered serveral peoples Dell lappies with cases that dont close properly - maybe banging up against the keyboard, and scratching the screen. Basically, I think their manufactuiring department has becomes real crap as of late....
TimC.
Perhaps if we all write, and ask real nice... they'll change their minds. I do believe that it's important for Dell to ship linux with their desktops... so what if it's not ready for your mother to use... It will be someday.
Mmmmmmm. Floor pie!
However, it really does cost Dell a lot to support Linux. They have to test and validate the OS with every hardware configuration they sell and note those configurations that don't work, they have to make changes to the manufacturing process to support the new OS, and they have to train and staff support lines for Linux customers, and so on.
Linux users must memorize and type commands and forgo compatible software applications.
No wonder there is no customer demand!
My opinion differs.
One, Dell desktops are generally regarded among the best rated machines for PC hardware reliability. I know people that support a range (over a thousand desktops) of different PC machines day to day, week to week, year to year, and their experiences bear this out:
Published surveys like this and like that support the same conclusion.Personally, I also like Dell's for their low decibel rating compared to other brands.
Their prices are only low if you're restricting yourselves to Intel processors. Dell's are not dirt cheap to buy in any case. It's just that for the level of hardware reliability and reduced maintenance costs, corporate buyers like them.
If you're willing to venture beyond the safe confines of 5 year track records that corporate buyers rely upon, then much better performance and price deals can be found if you're willing to do some research and testing.
I think Dell is vulnerable sticking to Intel for processors that are overpriced for the delivered level of performance. The technically inclined that support Dells at work buy Athlons for home - at some point they might notice their home Athlons great price performance ratio is augmented with tolerable reliability.
Yes, Dell operates on the slimmest of margins, assembling to order and not enduring the 1.5%/week depreciation that applies to computer inventory that the other firms keep. Maybe their Intel-only policy gets them on the priority list from Intel to compensate for no inventory.
Also, Dell minimizes the amount of high-powered technical staff they keep on hand, so it's little wonder they're bowing out of the small-sized high-knowledge overhead of the Linux market: it's not justified on a purely business level.
While Dell is making the right tactical business decision in this case, the long-term strategic consequences are that they will lose a small but vital share of the high end x86 workstation market to HP, IBM, Compaq and any other company willing to listen to the Linux desktop customer.
Case in point.
My organization is in the middle of evaluating various high-end x86 Linux desktops to replace some aging Suns. Dell was on our first round list, mainly because the corporate PC support people have them on the "approved" list and they're reliabile.
However, Dell's Linux technical support was never thicker than 2 web clicks. So it's no surprise that we're looking only at HP and IBM at the next stage.
We'll probably buy about 200 machines at around $5K apiece, but Dell won't be getting any of that. Given their size, I doubt they'll miss it.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
--
Free Mac Mini
Ugghh, dell laptops. I bought one after some friends and the computer press had informed me that they were the bomb. PIII, lots of RAM, big hard drive, etc. Now its a year and a half later and my third LCD screen has died and my third keyboard is giving out. Needless to say I'm really glad I got an extended warranty or I would be broke fixing the thing. Dell isn't making any money off me.
I look forward to the day it finally dies and I can justify buying a new laptop of hopefully better reliability.
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
I was planning to buy one with windows installed (as my college requires it) and install linux manually. As long as they keep selling the linux compatible hardware (namely the PSION modem and Xircom LAN card) I'm happy.
I am !amused.
I was told yesterday that if you don't open the licencing agreement to the MS products and don't use the Windows install, you can send it back for a refund. Whether or not this is true (I assume it is since the agreements usually say "if you don't comply with the license, return it for a full refund") I suppose it will still be a huge hassle.
--------
--------
It's OK to be social, just don't tell anyone about it.
Why do people buy big brand name pc's (IBM/Dell/Compaq/other) anyway? Are there no small shops that sell their own generic brands in the US? I would not think about buying a Dell or whatever simply because generic machines with equivalent specs are available typically for ~30% less (in Australia) - it just seems strange that people (especially those reading a 'news for nerds' site) would care about brand name computers.
Word up Taco. Day be tight yo.
There's another article on Yahoo! too.
--BEGIN SIG BLOCK--
I'd rather be trolling for goatse.cx.
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
first to autocracy they told me that to, they said to me that by federal law the computer had to be fully operational when shiped. Bull shit no compueter is fully operational with windows on it. Second when I got this computer they said that it (the inspiron 5000e) was going to be some day shiped with linux on it and that it was 100% linux compatable, bull shit, I have had more trouble with this laptop and linux then windows crash a year, and no i don't blame linux i blame dell. third of all, i have one of the batters that might burst into flames, but they will not rplace it for me, why you might ask, well heres why, my parents got me this laptop for christmas so dell put into their recoreds that it is owned by my father, so when I called about it I got told that they could not send a new batter becaues I proabaly stoll this laptop from my fater. So I know in the futer I will never get a nother h^hdell computer ever.
I'm not responsible for moronic moderators. :^D
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
Just rambling. :^D
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
I've never seen that support. I FIPSed my harddrive and have dual booted using a debian distro. When I asked for a driver for the internal modem, I got the usual "check the drivers on the win98 cd..." Also I'm unable to get my video card to work with the X windows system. The ATI Rage Mobility doesn't seem to work with the Mach 64 server. Neither do the VGA or SVGA servers work either. Anyone have any ideas what I should do? Or should I just keep bugging tech support until I get someone who doesn't say, "no I don't know who linux is" and then ask their manager if they know who linux is.
"It has always been this way and it won't change, god bless the fucked up USA" The Briefs
I wonder if Dell will still give out their Red Hat distro? Did their laptops come with a device driver or just a non-win-modem? And excusing all that how can I download Xfree86 4 onto my system if I can't get the modem to work under debian?
"It has always been this way and it won't change, god bless the fucked up USA" The Briefs
Dell has never offered Linux on their laptops. Not true. I was given this option when I ordered my inspiron 7500. I did order it over the phone though. No matter how many times I tried to get their website to quote it with linux installed their website always finished the quote with win2k. Their site has tons of glitches and is missing a lot of the options available. Call for your order instead of placing it online and you'll be much happier.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
You must have a nice laptop :) I have an older IBM thinkpad. It's only a P-II 266, but man, I would not trade it for anything (my wife has a new VAIO Z505 thing, I definately prefer my thinkpad). What's been great about the PCMCIA is I still use PCMCIA cards I've had since my 486-laptop days. And that 486-laptop is still hosting my crappy domain, using a PCMCIA ethernet card :)
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
I'm either glad that they're getting rid of Linux, or I'm mad that Microsoft has bought out Dell. :)
Either way, Windows for me... I know, I know, I'm sooo not down with it. Fine by me.
"high demand" does not mean a small number of people squaking loudly. It means either a large number of people willing to pay a little, or a small number of people willing to pay a lot.
Actually, in economic terms, "demand" is a graph of what people are willing to pay for a unit vs. the number of units.
So, all you have established is one datum on the demand curve, and you haven't provided us with any information about how many units you'd be willing to buy at a given price.
Now, if Dell actually tracked requests like yours and added them up, they undoubtedly have some kind of report on some manager's desk that approximates the demand (in the economic sense) for laptops loaded with Linux.
That same report also contains a "supply" which is the price at which companies are willing to sell units vs. number of units.
The intersection of these two curves is the equilibrium price, and if Dell can't sell units at that price, and make a profit, they have no business selling these boxes.
That's all there is to it. If you don't believe me, just ask the CEO of VA Linux. :)
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Funny thing is, when I checked prices on Dell laptops, I could get a Windows laptop cheaper than a Linux laptop because of promotions!
But like others have said, the biggest problem really is that many people find installing _any OS_ difficult. And most of them need NOT install anything; PCs usually come with some flavour of Windows installed by default. Default installation of Red Hat (and I'm sure others like Mandrake, S.U.S.E) are really trivially easy (as long as h/w really is 'old enough' to be fully supported), and comparable to Windows ME install (which I had to re-install, thanks to the seller having partitioned 30 gig HD in one partition... ugh). After installing Red Hat (for example), updating system is as easy as with windows, if you use RH's update agent (compared to windowsupdate.com).
--
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
...we still have to pay for that pre-loaded software that we aren't using.
Times are tough. This is just an example of zero based budgeting. There is nothing here that claims that Dell says "Linux is a bad operating system." They just made a decision that with limited resources, they would get better return on their investment by supporting other products.
Too often, when an announcement like this comes out, the slashdot community starts crying foul and looking for Microsoft conspiracies. Dell will start shipping Linux based laptops and desktops when they think they can make money doing so, or when business improves to the point that they can afford to take more chances.
** The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not reflect those of my employers - past, present, or future**
You should see some of the things that people do to VERY expensive cars. Rolls Royces seem favorite targets. I think it has something to do with the new rich, i.e., trailer trash with money.
Of course there are two questions, did he stick on the ducks with super glue, and would removing them increase or *decrease* the value of his tradein.
KFG
As someone who was a dealer in used exotic cars for a few years I can tell you that buying a car without tires is not only easy but that it happens all the time.
MANY people already own a set of tires of a brand and model that they prefer that they wish to put on their new rides.
Yes, people do this with NEW cars as well.
All you have to do is ask.
As general rule you can can get a car with/without any legal equipment you want if you ask for it.
Hell, if you want a particular individual car but it's a color you don't like the dealer will MAKE it that color.
All you have to do is ask.
"I'd really, really like to buy that Porsche for $100,000 but it dosn't have a rubber duck glued to the roof. I have my own, would you glue it on for me, or should I just walk?"
Trust me, they'll glue on the rubber duck.
KFG
I purposely bought the Dell that they use(d) for Linux. Then I whacked the drive put W2K on one half and RH6.2 on the other.
Recently I called them and asked them to fix the problem I was having wherein the B-Memory chip slot would occasionally "drop" the memory chip out.
They sent a guy who had just completed his A+ Cert... Hey it's just a motherboard I thought. He never hooked the fan up. He fried the chip and the "new" board.
Dell sent more parts. And the same guy. I sent him home. I requested a veteran to do the replacement. New guy comes. Installs everything. Boots the machine. This guy FREAKS out and tells me, "What you're doing is against the law. I should report you. You CANNOT install another OS on a Dell."
I gently inform him that Dell ships laptops with Red Hat.
An hour later I get a call from the repair place (IBM) who also inform me that since I have voided the warranty I am now liable for the repair costs and they'll send me a bill.
I called Dell back and they fixed everything, but still...
---
This
Of course it took you a long time. You never used Linux. If it was the first time I touched Windows it would take me a long time to do what I wanted. What did the teacher expect, that he would be able to figure everything out the first time he used Linux?
And of course a lot of apps for windows aren't on Linux. It's another OS! A lot of apps for Linux aren't on Windows either.
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought.
Funny you should mention that, in the hippie-town where I live there is an old blue compact car that is painted like a duck pond... and there are rubber ducks glued all over the car. It's good to know that when that guy upgrades to an expensive car he can keep his ducks.
Federal law? I SERIOUSLY doubt that! I wonder if the guy made that up on the spot, or if they were coached to say that? You should call back and pretend to be a Senator.
Someday when my publishing company grows up, I will use the profits to start a PC bizness with a clue, and I will do my best to drive the likes of Dell out of business.
Whatever happened to "the customer is always right?" Customer service on the whole has really taken a dive lately.
I BEGGED them to send me either a Latitude with Linux pre-loaded or a blank box with no OS. They flat-out REFUSED. They would only ship with MS Win2000 or WinME preinstalled and REFUSED to provide me with information so I could obtain a refund for the unused Windows license.
Me too.
And me. In fact, I asked Dell whether it would invalidate the warranty if I installed Linux. They said yes unless the laptop came with Linux installed by Dell.I also asked for no OS, or if I put Windows on a small partition and installed Linux on the rest. Whatever I did, it would invalidate the warranty. And I don't need a warranty to cover software, I just need a warranty to cover defective hardware.
What is the situation now?
As if Dell were the only place to get a computer. As if Dell were a *decent* place to get a computer. Sheesh.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
Dell wanted an additional $200 per linux PC. The end result is people are buying win2k on them because they are cheeper, even with the little sticker on the box. They apparently never considered users with a linux CD for any PC they buy. But Dell discuraged their buyers by charging more for a free operating system installed than a $100-200 operating system they are already supporting.
Who wants Pork Chops?
Actually, it's a public company, traded on NASDAQ.
"They" can sell whatever they want, but if it's not what customers want, they'll go out of business. And I imagine if the only way to sell me a car was to take the tires off of it, the dealer would do it.
An engine would have been a better analogy, because it would probably wouldn't be worth the dealer's time to take out an engine just to sell a body. But that analogy is broken too, because an engine costs a larger percentage of the car than an operating system does of the computer. Especially if you're Dell and buy big licenses. It would be very little trouble for dell to sell a computer with no OS.
---
(http://www.msnbc.com/news/608839.asp?0nm=N12O)
"Last June, Dell announced it was expanding efforts with software maker Red Hat Inc. to market Linux, an alternative operating system to Microsoft's Windows that can be downloaded for free over the Internet.
Linux users must memorize and type commands and forgo compatible software applications."
---------
Uhhh...I think they are confusing it with DOS!
Dell won't do the dual booting OS thing, so though people prefer the quality, warranty and reputation of the Dell systems, they end up going to a local PC place that can actually handle the software installations.
An Apple TiBook (or even iBook) running OS X has all of these, and more: support for 802.11 and Firewire built in. Linux? No--but close. If you're looking for a huge screen, you couldn't ask for much more.
--
$tar -xvf
Don't hold your breath on that one.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
And if I need to clarify (and apparently I do), no, this is not Michael Dell typing, I have no Dell stock, and I don't even own anything from Dell.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
Of course, but with a company as large as Dell, it's hard for it to fold overnight. Even look at Lucent--they have had *tons* of losses, yet they are still around, albeit they may need to merge to keep from losing even more money.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
I must say that whatever charity you worked must be a bunch of ingrates. If the "fees" to close the deal was around 50K, the land must have been worth much, much more than 50K.
Any "charity" that accepts a donation, throws a friggin "thank you dinner", and then insults the guest of honor--they deserve to have the guest storm out. Did you ever think that if the 50K was so outrageous, maybe they shouldn't have had a thank-you dinner.
People amaze me.
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
you got to be either insane or a newbie to use a factory-installed OS on hardware.
-who- knows what kinda config they used or what's turned on/off. Just order the damn thing w/o an OS, install your cute penguin and stop bitchin.
NO SPORK
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Well, you missed the point!
Dell is saying they are stopping selling Linux pre-installed on laptops.
Your parent post is saying that prior to this, Dell refused to sell him a laptop with Linux pre-installed.
This would suggest to me that they were never really interested in measuring the demand. They pretended to sell something, then announced they were stopping.
So why are you wittering on about establishing datums on curves? And what morons modded you to +5?
I do like your sig though.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
Every preinstalled GN*/Linux system I've ever seen was going for the same price as the same hardware sporting M$. Now, we know M$ doesn't give anything away free, so what's the conclusion? Computer manufacturers are cashing in on their M$ taxen, and charging end-users an extra $300-$400. So why would any self-respecting geek buy a pre-installed system that way? Buy a Windoze box, wipe it, install your distro of choice, and hit up M$'s ass for your refund.
MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
I just recently inherited a Dell Latitude laptop and installed SuSE Linux on it. While I must say it was a relatively painless install, configuring my DSL connection was not painless.
I'm an experienced computer user as far as Mac and Windows is concerned and I'm positive that's the only reason I was able to set up my DSL connection. If my mom were to ever attempt such a feat, I'm sure she'd give up extremely fast and switch back to MacOS really fast. It just isn't intuitive or easy to figure it all out.
That said, I'm really excited to have a Linux box finally and a distro that I can install on the Dell as well as on my again PPC 7200/75. I played with the GIMP and Killustrator for a couple of days and have concluded that I'm really glad I have 2 Mac's I can run Photoshop and Illustrator on. Don't get me wrong, I think both the GIMP and Killustrator (or whatever it's new name will be) are important OpenSource projects, but damn do they have a long way to go before they are ready for professional users to embrace them.
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Pooty tweet
Dell's decision to drop Linux as an install option is less disturbing to me than their decision to not sell "blank" machines or let people know how to get refunds for unused Windws licenses. I would go out and buy a Dell if I could get a "blank" box. As it is, I think I'll have to become more of a geek than I ever thought I would be and build my own box if only to make sure MS doesn't get a penny from me.
---------------------------
Pooty tweet
I was on there two weeks ago getting something for my brother. RH6.2 and 7.1 were on the list of operating systems to install on the laptop.
This was a month ago on an entry-level Dimension L. Here's the link that *didn't* offer Linux. (Did I miss it? I can't see how to get it without Windows. Dell lost the sale as a result.)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
I was actually pretty impressed how easy it was to select Linux instead of Windows. You can't say they didn't try.
This was a month ago on an entry-level Dimension L. Here's the link that *didn't* offer Linux. (Did I miss it? I can't see how to get it without Windows. Dell lost the sale as a result.)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
That Dimension desktop or Inspiron laptop will always have the latest copy of MS whatever, with MS-Works. Which I am sure they are getting a little revenue off of that.
Which really shoots them in the foot for the low-end market. I mean, what's a Windows Me license running these days? $100? On a sub-$1000 system, that's a *big* chunk of your total system price.
For general newbies, preinstalled Linux makes things easy, and let's face it, most of these people are looking for nothing more than a web and e-mail grinder that lacks the intelligence-insulting AOL crap.
Especially if you advertised that Linux came preinstalled and configured with Netscrape and an e-mail client, maybe StarOffice too. Little different for a newbie to learn, but this guy is a newbie whose only other net experience was AOL on Windows 98, and *hated* it. (Crashes, found it counterintuitive to click "Start" to shutdown, nasty AOL point-and-drool, silly sound effects, etc.)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Maybe there'd be more demands for Linux on Dell desktops and notebooks if I could actually select it on their website. If it was available as an option on that machine, I couldn't find it.
As it was, I was hunting around for a Dell desktop for a friend of mine. Nothing spectacular, but he didn't want to pay the Microsoft tax, and liked the look of Linux on one of my machines.
We chose the link to customize the machine, and Linux wasn't on the list. In the end, he went with a generic clone because he could get it without the liability of a copy of Windows Me. Oh, and we downloaded an RH 7.1 ISO from their website.
Wanna hire a computer geek who can configure BIND and whip out a soldering iron to hack a monitor? www.glowingplate.com
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
So yes, I didn't order Linux from Dell. It's a wonder why, too.
This space reserved for future uselessness
SIG: HUP
Really?
sulli
RTFJ.
What gives? I've been told that Red Hat 7.1 installs flawlessly out of the box on Dell's current top of the line laptops. If you want Linux, pop in a CD and go.
The only real issue I see is that you have to pay for a Windows license. My guess is that you probably had to pay for that anyway with Dell's previous Linux offerings (I believe they were dual boot, though I could be mistaken).
In my experience, Dell makes some of the best laptops out there. I won't go off on my Sony rant again, but there's just no comparison there. They're not an evil company.
-John
Most /.ers are IT professionals who work on the weekends. This is standard in the IT industry were we are always underfunded. Most IT workers I know work %50 of the weekdends and 10 hour days. Its that or get fired. I assumed this was the norm from what I read here on slashdot. Everyone is salaried base so overtime so working overtime is expected as just part of the job. I also can't leave and wont leave for a long time.
:-)
The problem is I have no previous IT experience and the IT economy is very bad. According to a previous slashdot artice, many IT headhunters who begged to have 1 or 2 programmers 2 years ago now have over 500 candidates and they are being assholes on whom they recruit. I think they view it as pay back. I read things like don't even bother sending me your resume if you do not meet %100 of the requirements or don't live in a certian area. Moving expenses will not be included. Until the economic situation improves I will keep my job.
Yes, the job boom is quite over and the only statistics that contradict are funded by lobbiests who want cheap labor from oversea's to take away American jobs.
Yes, due to my lack of expereince I have to take a mostly NT oriented job. But it pays a hell of alot more then my previous mailroom job and its worth the price. The schedule kind and using NT kind of sucks but it pays the bills and requires constant nursing so my boss can have a reason to keeo my job.
http://saveie6.com/
I believe the problem is windows is still required or demand is there just in case linux gets ugly.
I am willing to pay for a new pc with a copy of windows. WHy? Because I recieve word docuements need to write a few vbscripts for work and play UT( linux version sucks).
So would I actually pay more for windows or just recieve the machine and wipe out windows or dual boot the setup. I looked at the linux desktops at dell and I get more bang for the buck with windows.
I still believe your a fool if you buy a pc without windows and do not have access to another machine. What if your boss emails a word or access docuement to you on Saturday and demands to have it finished by monday? StarOffice has some campability issues so its not a truely viable option.
http://saveie6.com/
Linux really needs an Office suite on par with Microsoft.
If a company developed and sold a closed-source office suite that was as good as MS Office, would you buy and use it, if it was better than the open source tools? Or is StarOffice 'it' for you?
I don't think Dell will be getting mass e-mails demanding that they return to providing Linux on the desktop. Just as they said, I don't think they would get too many orders for it. Veteran Linux hackers are more likely to build their computers than to purchase them pre-made. Hopefully, people just getting into Linux will realize that understanding how installation works will help tremendously in understanding Linux as a whole. (Pick my root point? Why would I want to put this /usr directory on a separate mount point? ...etc) So I don't really think there is a huge market in the first place for desktops with Linux on them.
If, on the other hand, they told them that absolutely no software support would be provided with the linux boxes, I'd imagine that would cut the price substantially. I'm guessing Linux tech support people would probably cost more than windows guys, and they've probably fired alot for their condescending tone (which they develop instinctivly after getting as far as figuring out set prompt) when dealing with customers.
Incidentally, I love Dell Cases. It's wicked easy to take them completely apart without tools in minutes.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
What's wrong with having any company, Dell, HP, Compaq or what have you sell ONE model of their laptops or PCs with Linux preconfigured and sell it at CompUSA, Best Buy or whatever ?
Sometimes I have the feeling the geeks couldn't just stand that their favourite toy goes mainstream. No more fun out of getting the "I am just smarter than you" bashing attitude. Mami can get her Linux box without you. Not to imagine, she could even get her server box set up without you. My, oh my, that would be the end of the world, right ?
That's a good point. Even people who will run Windows probably have access to a copy and now have no option to buy a Dell pc w/out paying for an OS.
This IS the only reason I could think of buying a preinstalled linux box, from anyone. You get the hardware you want, and you know for sure its compatible...
...And you paid them??? I thought that Linux users were smarter than that.
- - - If the sun is a star, why can't I see it at night?
I've got a Dell Inspiron 5000 as my laptop - but I didn't buy it from Dell - I got it from TuxTops (when they still sold hardware. Sigh.)
You can get the Inspiron 5000 form factor from ASL with a 1400x1050 screen currently. Their model is the Excalibur LT-420.
Looks like TuxTops moved their hardware sales to QLITech, where you can get the same thing.
Both the ASL and the TuxTops machines are relabeled ChemBooks, which Dell still uses for some of the Inspiron line.
Amen. First thing I do when a friend gets a Dell is an fdisk, format and reinstall of the OS. Saw a huuuuge performance improvement between the Dell installation and my own.
--- On the other hand, you have five fingers.
oh, good point. I was referring to their consumer systems which have lots and lots of random stuff on them. I was using an NT4 Optiplex myself a couple of years ago and that was fine...
--- On the other hand, you have five fingers.
The typical consumer shopping for a computer at Dell or IBM or Compaq will not even see the option for Linux because the sites are so hard to navigate. Everything I've ever heard or read (even this fairly nice one) has shown that Dell was half-hearted at best in their Linux support.
Linux is user supported--i.e., if you want to support Linux, use it. Even the poorest running Linux box I've worked on has run rings around any Windows except 2000. And I always have far more difficulty properly configuring W2K than Linux.
I asked about a Windows refund when I ordered my Inspiron and they said they could'nt do that. 1st time I booted up, the first thing I saw was an EULA. Maybe its in the BIOS. Basicly I couldn't power on (even with a Linux boot disk) without clicking through to the MS EULA. And now they won't support anything (even hardware i.e. my battery only last 20 minutes) unless they think you are running the Dell installed OS.
Simple people talk of people, better people talk of events, great people talk of ideas.
almost every configuration the boxes were MORE expensive than identical models with Windows
An interesting question might be why do the configurations running LINUX have to be more expensive? (I'm not doubting that the options were more expensive.)
Strangely I can run the latest Linux on my old 486, but cannot run a 3 year old release of Windows on it.
There may be more at play here. Maybe Dell never really wanted to sell Linux in the first place. Another "why" question would be appropriate there too.
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~~ the real world is much simpler ~~
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Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
want *nix and office and diablo ii?
the animal doesnt even have opposable thumbs, focker!
I guess I'm writing from ignorance, but was there a price difference in the system depending on the OS the machine came pre-installed with? If so (and assuming that Linux was the cheaper option :)
then it sucks that Linux users will be paying
a "Windows Tax" for an operating system that probably never sees the light of boot, having been
fdisk'ed before it's time. :)
But what does my opinion matter, I just vote here. It's not like I have any money or anything.
it's not like there was any linux people over at Dell anyways... at our company, all our developers use Dell Dimension 4100's with linux preinstalled. it's pretty neat how they come with microsoft mice, however.
we just received another one a few weeks ago, that had redhat 7.0 preinstalled, yuck.
and even though they come with nvidia 32mb gts video, they're not even using the nvidia released drivers, sheesh. (but our linux boxen sure make for some nice q3 action at work, hee hee.)
everytime a new Dell came in, i reinstalled linux on the thing anyway, so this news doesn't bother me a bit.
So let me understand this correctly. You are actively using a non commercial, free OS. You are willing to go get the OS for free and refute the mighty M$, but you wouldn't just leave Dell at the door when they wouldn't fill your order? Why didn't you go to another reputable vendor who doesn't descriminate about a customer's needs? As for the low demand. I don't see a strong demand for Linux on laptops. Don't get me wrong, Linux is a good system, but compared to Windoze, it's a little high brow for the average guy. Until the "Militant Penguins" get over themselves and try to make the system easy to use for Armchair Joe, Linux will continue to be a commercial failure on average end user systems. Unfortunately, that's where the bulk of the cash is. As long as the people who proffess to love Linux give people who don't understand the OS the.. "Go back to windows you chump" perpsective, Linux will be in the dumps.
Foot....Gnome......Ha ha. I wonder if she even knew what she was saying. Ha ha ha!
I love the smell of Karma in the morning
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Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Microsoft: It's a monopoly. They can't do what ever they want. If there was only one kind of tire available, and I produced my own, I imagine I could ask for a car without tires and tow it away... I imagine I'd get some strange looks, but it would happen.
I've run linux on everything from the old Tecra 730, to the Satellite Pro 8100. They are beautiful laptops and linux has no problems with them.
I'm replying on a Dell 8000 at 1600x1200. Debian sid distro. Personally, I'd never want Dell's config on any *nix machine I'd run..but I do appreciate buying hardware that has nifty drivers available under linux.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
This is what the DOJ should be focusing on... hardware vendors are supposed to sell hardware. Not have some cozy 'bundling' arrangement that attempts to control the hardware after the sale.
Just another chip out of current consumer rights digs. I wonder if people in the future will equate this to a sort of intellectual property-rights laize-fairre (sp?).
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
Everyone seems to forget one thing.
:-).
Small shops originally were the market, none of these Dell's and Gateway's were really around, but in an average town you had plenty of independant computer stores. This is where the desktop PC revolution had its roots.
Guess what? Lots of independent stores I have been to recently have much more knowledge of Linux than they did even two years, so thats where the demand is (and contrary to belief a lot of people will never buy via mail order for a variety of reasons) too.
Best to remind everyone, Linux desktop is at the stage the server was two years ago, a grass roots level campaign. Right now its too early for the big Dell's to support it (apart from in the server space).
Matt
PS KDE2 and Gnome are sweet! Of course, I would say that
Linux is free. Dogmatics aside, free doesn't mean food on the table. With all of the shit from the community given to Dell and RedHat, there certainly isn't a "prestige" element to keeping it.
Low demand. There really aren't a lot of Linux-demanding customers because if you are knowledgeable enoough to run Linux, you generally know how to assemble your own home box (or have one at work, like me, that you use often).
Low margins on hardware. Services and software are the ONLY way to make money right now because the market is continually saturated.
Belt-tightening. A general downturn in the economy spells more saving and, if you can't put the competition out of business by selling in volume, you're going to have to find another way.
It's very depressing to be in the hardware industry right now. Manufacturers are offering substantial discounts and financial rewards for high-margin products, but they're still not selling.
Small businesses are dead in the water because they can't do small batches of boxes. The margins they pull from the boxes (unless they use the absolute cheapest shit available) are not enough to sustain growth or keep afloat. They depend on the "Windows tax" to stay alive.
That's what I've seen so far, anyway... YMMV.
Lucas
And then try a refund for the windoze copy you never used...
--
What ? Me, worry ?
where can you get a decent linux (and unfortunately windows 2000) compatible laptop? I'm actually in the market for one as we speak and am tired of fighting countless PnP battles...
"Pussy: You spend 9 months trying to get out of it, and the rest of your life trying to get back in..."
I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
It's a private company. They can sell whatever they want. Try buying a car without any tires.
I dont see any real computer company actually seriously selling Linux on their user level computers any time soon.
Now you may be able to make a claim about no companies making a "serious" effort to sell Linux desktops or notebooks, but you can't make the claim that no "real" computer company sells them when IBM clearly does. Although it is a very limited selection.
Ruger
when I looked, the first thing is that you have to HUNT for the linux systems and there were only a few offerings. Beyond that, say MS charges $200 for Win98, the 'OEM' version you can get with a hard drive is $150 (aprox values) what do you think Dell pays MS? $10? Redhat goes for $30 for the basic version, did they charge Dell to offer it preinstalled? if so how much? Was there a way Dell could offer a Linux system for cheaper than and MS system in order to either make more money or offer a better deal? I suspexct that with OEM contracts MS makes it REAL CHEAP to preinstall windows on new machines for the OEM and thereby erasing the competitive advantage of Linux being 'free'.....Beyond the initial software cost, how much did Dell need to pay it's tech support people to support Linux compared to supporting Windows? everybodys grandma can support windows, Linux support people would be harder to find and thus mean Dell needs to spend more to train folks.
:-)
it all comes down to Dollar$, Dell needs to make money and Linux can't give them an edge because they're invested in supporting MS Windows already, and moving to a new platform free or not requires building infrastructure around supporting it.
at least we have each other
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
http://www.qlitech.net
Maybe with MickeyD out of the way some smaller companies more dedicated to Linux can participate and prosper.
IBM would be another option if you prefer a major name brand.
give me a
I have KOffice and Staroffice both installed here, but at the risk of igniting controversy have to say I have a clear preference for Corel 2K.
There are admittedly negatives: CO2K uses it's own doctored version of WINE (which doesn't interfere at all with my opensource version. (I like music anyway so I have plenty of HDD space.) CO2K is also a commercial product, and the default screenfont Corel installs is pathetically tiny and difficult to modify.
On the positive side, Wordperfect, Quattropro and Paradox are carefully crafted ports, (there's some presentation stuff too, similar to Powerpoint that I don't really bother much with.)
Paradox for Linux will run code I wrote years ago using Win-OS2 or for that matter, win32 Paradox with no modifications whatsoever. This is the only onscreen example of pure crossplatform compatibility I've actually witnessed for myself for non-Java gui software.
In any case, I like it, despite the reservations I stated above. I'm not sorry I bought it and appreciate the effort Corel spent in it's engineering.
One more thing: MickeyD's PR bimbos in their $700 miniskirts pretending it doesn't exist are rather irritating.
give me a
Try the VESA frame buffer mode if you can't get X to work with the ATI Rage Mobility chip. On LCD screens its nice (but unaccelerated). On CRTs it sucks, the refresh rate is fixed to 60Hz. Nice side effect is the VESA graphics text console. Recommended in any case.
/usr/src/linux/Documentation/fb/vesafb.txt, assuming you installed the kernel sources in the usual place, /usr/src/linux
You can find out more about the frame buffer stuff in
However, I believe the ATI Rage Mobility chip works fine with XFree86 version 4. A friend has an IBM Thinkpad A21 series laptop that I think has that chipset and it works wonderful with XFree86 4 that is installed with RedHat 7.0. I may be completely wrong though about that. Dude's not here at the moment to ask...
Sometimes graphics chipsets have the same or very similiar names, but they are different revisions. This sometimes causes older XFree86 servers to not recognize the chipset and fail to start. Many times, this can be avoided by forcing the (false) detection of a chipset known to your Xfree86 release. Many times the Xserver will then work without problems, sometimes acceleration must be disabled for it to be useable. My old NEC Versa SX laptop had a Trident Cyber9388A graphics card, but it would only work (the first six months I had it) if I added the line 'Chipset "cyber9397"' to the "Device" section. That's XFree86 3 configuration lingo, I don't know if it is the same for Xfree86-4
"IMHO... not really. Remember, all Joe wants to do is pound out a letter or connect to the internet so he can check out the sports scores (or his stock prices). How much shell programming is required to do that? Sometimes people in the tech realm forget that not everyone is using their PC to write code and tweak Makefiles with vi. "
:)
If that's the case, the why would "Joe" need Linux in particular? Doesn't like Windows? Mac might suit them better than a "user grade" Linux distribution. Many people here in my town tell me they want to switch to Linux. Many say its because they are sick of windows. I respond by asking them
(a) what do they currently do with the computer
(b) what do they want to do with it that they haven't been doing
(c) why does windows (or whatever) bother them
Very often, the answers are these:
(a) play games, write papers (many of them are undergrad or grad students), browse the web
(b) nothing, except make some fancy web pages maybe
(c) @#$! modem doesn't work if the printer is on and I hold down the ALT key (or some weird thing like that)
In that case I say: there is no need to try Linux because:
(a) windows is better for games. I.E. doesn't work for Linux, and like they really want to learn Emacs (or vi) and LaTeX
(b) Nothing else? Guess gcc and perl ain't much use to you then!
(c) Linux is stable as hell, but doesn't mean that it will make hardware work that doesn't work in windows.
Sometimes however, the answers are more like this:
(a) Browse the web, email, write programs for research
(b) Run a local mail server and web server, script some of my programs so that one model can take the output of another and I can embed the tabulated results directly into my papers
(c) Microsoft Word equation editor sucks.
In which case, its quite clear they have much to gain by spending the time to learn and use Linux. I usually tell people like this (after helping them install Linux dual-boot with their existing Windows), to try what they want to do each day with the computer for exactly 1 hr on Linux before giving up and doing it the way they already know how in Windows. I answer any questions I'm present for. In ALL cases, these people remove windows to recover the hard drive space and use Linux exclusively, after 6 months to a year of this. Is this good? YES! From my point of view anyway, I'm a huge huge Linux and open source advocate. Should then everybody use Linux, well, no, no not everybody. Why? one size fits all is an oxymoron, that's why. Object-oriented programming works really well for things like GUI programming -- the model makes (some) sense. Should we conclude that all things are best programmed with OOP? Fuck no. (Sorry, I hate OOP)
I've helped some people in the former group of people to, but most of the time they don't spend much time using Linux, even after a year of two of having it installed. Why? Because Linux (and Unix based systems) gets its power from things like the bash shell, the development tools, and the simple but consistant interface between the common utilities (ie, stdin, stdout, pipes), which are specialized for specific purposes but easily combined like lego blocks to make more complicated tools, not the one-size-fits-and-does-all-but-oh-wait-not-really philosophy of Windows point and click applications. So, to finally get to my point, if Joe doesn't need to explore the features of bash, perl, gcc, local network services, etc., why does Joe want Linux anyway? Should Linux work both ways? No, I don't really think so... That is to say, I don't think ease of use to the level of windows should be a focus for Linux and open source developers. Progress in that direction is always appreciated, but its the raw power stick-shift of Linux that makes it attractive, at least to me and people like me. Linux is the only OS I've ever used that seems to have functionality as top priority, rather than something more like marketability, which translates into hide complexity and reduce it (ie, drop features) when it cannot be hidden. For people who'd rather drive an automatic most of the time, there is windows and macintosh, and nothing wrong using them, as long as nobody is forcing me (or anyone) to use them.
i'm not sure why you got modded down, but..in any event..
.kb
I agree with the fact that computer users of the 90's+ (basicallly, "non-geeks") will never install a os in there life.
I've been using computers for 15 years now, and started by installing slackware UMS-DOS installs when I was about 13, but, thats because I had interest. Needless to say, I still have issues when installing linux on my system, but I get them down, and then able to get it running after some time..
A friend of mine mentioned this, and it seems to be true. I was commenting how much awesome GAIM was than any of AOL's AIM clients (Windoze version specifically, because the linux client is awful) and he said, its funny that GAIM will be the best program ever, but it'll take YEARS before they come out with a good office package. and I guess thats the problem with geeks writing code w/ other geeks...they write code for the apps THEY want to see, not whats totally needed...I think that holds true..
Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right-- But They Make Me Feel A Whole Lot Better
Personally, I'd install myself anyway - the fact that this DOESN'T affect servers says something - they found a market there and given my past experieince with Dell servers - I'd spec one in a heartbeat if the price was right and the customer was willing to forgo Micro$oft!
Top Most Bizarre/Disturbing Error Messages
Diablo II runs fabulously and damn near bug-free under Wine nowadays.
Molf
The sales guy was out to lunch: he said "you are cheaper off this way". I said no, Linux was free. He said "No, RedHat and so on are not free". When I tried to explain RedHat could be downloaded free, he said "No way. How else would they stay in business?".
Clueless!
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BDOS ERR ON A:>
Take a look at what Apple has to offer. Price/performance comparisons pit their laptops (and desktops) ahead of Dell's offerings.
Each machine ships with OS X, with Firewire/IEEE1394, USB, Airport/Wi-Fi, and PCMCIA all working fine on a BSD kernel known as Darwin.
(I might be new at this *NIX thing, but I just got the GIMP running in a rootless Xfree86 window server last night!)
As an added bonus, Apple laptop's are far more energy efficient (ie: longer battery life, no fan noise).
When Thales was asked what was difficult, he said, "To know one's self." And what was easy, "To advise another."
And haven't looked back. Linux rocks on the desktop, even my wife likes it.
What is pirate software? Software for inventory of stolen treasure?
I know Dell (along with IBM) has been one of the larger champions of Linux. Its a shame to see Dell pull Linux of Laptops/Desktops. I have this old Dell laptop that I am dual booting Windows ME/Red Hat 7.0 on, and it is a cool system. But in a market like this, I suppose it was to be expected.
The fact that Red Hat is still being offered on the server side tells me that alot of companies have seen the strength of Linux for that environment. Linux still has a ways to go on to where end users (not the type of people running servers) will be comfortable with it. But Linux is both a stable and familiar choice with those on the server side, and that is what we are seeing reflected.
I appreciate Dell's willingness to keep open the option to reinstate the program when the economy gets better and people are more willing to experiment.
Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
"I think the CDs are ok," James said, "but the jewel case is shot. Guess I'll have to go to Sam Goody this afternoon again. Sheesh."
I'm a bloodsucking fiend! Look at my outfit!
I recently bought a laptop from Dell, while I primarily need it for running windows programs, I quite often think it'd be cool to have linux on it...which is where the relevence comes in, I don't recall seeing any mention of linux anywhere on Dell's site, my only options for an OS were Windows ME, or Windows 2k for $n more. At the time I was thinking something along the lines of "man, it'd be cool if I could get one of these with linux already on it."
Let the free market place dictate decide is what I say... Unless in a few years we find out M$ once again is twisting their arms with threats of higher oem costs of windows.
:(
On another note, I've bought 2 dell servers and had them both bundled with Redhat. To me, Redhat is excellent for running a server, but useless as a desktop os. I mean, I can't even play Counter-Strike with it.
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Did you just fart? Or do you always smell like that?
eTrade SUCKS
Who says I wouldn't leave Dell? I told them to take a hike and didn't buy their laptop. Then I went to IBM and faced the same problem. So I decided to stay with my tried and true Macintosh PowerBook and put Linux on my work laptop as a dual boot box.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Maybe if they actually sold to people who asked for Linux they would find that demand isn't as low as they think.
This is the height of hypocracy for Dell. They are known for custom building boxes to order and for having the lowest inventory levels in the industry (5 days). Tell me they can't slap a hard drive with Linux in as easily as they can load more RAM. Excuse me while I barf.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
I agree. Dell default installs are horrific. I also remove Linux from their servers, and reinstall.
/.-ers, if you know of any other vendors for 'good' (good used loosely when referring to x86 servers) 1,2 and 3-4U servers in that price range, let me know. IBM and Compaq are pricey, Linux Vendors, like the former VA-Linux and current Penguin Computing sell garbage that you can build yourself (better). I think I'll switch to IBM as soon as I can convince the brass.
/., I must have you read the following: Dell "hides" the truth, and won't update BIOS of relabeled Intel board!
I used to get Dell machines - ranging from Win9X to NT4 and beyond. I always do a fresh Install with windows because the apparently know nothing about Windows.
Now, for the Linux machines, they know nothing about it either. We have 31 Dell/Linux boxes (1550, 2450 and 2550), and after about 3 machines, we decided fresh RedHat would be far better. Its too bad they have the best deals on 1U servers,
AND NOW FOR THE DELL SCAM.
Brothers of
When I bought a Dell Dimension XPS Pro 200N, I got a Dell BIOS, A00. It was really a masked BIOS for an Intel VS440FX motherboard. I begged Dell at version A06 (Intel version 11) to give me the latest Intel version, 18. They claimed ignorance. After some hacking, I got the Intel BIOS to install and I was able to put more memory and a larger hard drive in. The moral. Dell withholds firmware updates to force obsolescence.
Another story. Dell Won't provide firmware updates again even on Servers!
We have OC12/ATM/POS cards from Intel. Fairly rare. They are called GigaBlade. They have two PCBs, a few Xylinx asics on them, nice silver flush mount jobs, and HP/Agilent optical framers. Cutting edge crap. Well, I wanted to put this card in a Dell box. It appears the AIC-7899 BIOS 2.X series doesn't like to behave well, and the 3.X BIOS for the Adaptec lineup fixes the problem, especially on RCC/Serverworks chipsets. Needless to say Dell has done NOTHING to help me, I have submitted about 10 requests through various channels and Adaptec has confirmed they gave Dell and all OEMS the 3.X code.
Finally, Dell has told me NO - they will not do it. The Intel GigaBlade cards are too rare to be worth their time.
I personally see why IBM charges more for their stuff - I have never been told to go screw in that manner by IBM. (MHO here is that IBM > Dell)
I think Dell is a bad company now, and I hope they go out of business.
Another story is: Dell is Scrooge McDuck, yet worse.
.... one of the charities I worked for had Michael Dell over for a thank-you dinner. Dell had given this charity some land in the middle of nowhere that is essentially worthless. He did it to get a tax write off, and the charity couldn't sell the land for much (even though it was "valued" at some arbitrary number). When confronted at the dinner, he was asked to give the $50,000 in fees that would have to be paid to close a real-estate deal, something of this nature, I forget the details.
Well, needless to say, Michael stormed out of the dinner, upset that the people he gave this "gift" to "spit in his face."
Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
Another data point, Dell has been promoting Itanium powered Dimension 730 series for ages now and you can't buy one from the web site, you can only look at the description.
Also dell has links to the Microsoft software piracy page, hmm I wonder who asked for that link then?
Why doesn't Dell use AMD processors in its computers, even though they are faster and cheaper? Back in the day, when AMD first began producing 80386 compatible chips, Intel sued. AMD's lawyers found some fine print in their licensing agreements with Intel and Intel lost the lawsuit.
So Intel tried again, this time sueing for Trademark Infringement -- essentially claiming that they owned the number 386. In a rare case of common sense by a government agency, the Patent and Trademark Office ruled that numbers alone do not constitue a valid trademark. And so Intel abandoned their numbering system and adopted the "Pentium" trademark.
One of the people who testified on behalf of Intel during their attempt to claim ownership of the numbers 3, 8 and 6 was Michael Dell.
For that reason alone I will never buy any product made by Intel or Dell
You fail to understand one simple fact: Joe Sixpack couldn't answer those questions that we take for granted as obvious. He is too afraid of fucking up, and so he doesn't use his noggin. He'd rather ask the tech support.
Even the timezones... he'd be afraid of something wrong. I know... I did tech support... it frightened me.
Screw 3...
Linux is still far from being mainstream capable. Installing that, for the common folk, is NOT easy.
Consider that these are the people who avoid DOS, which is the child's intro to that sort of interface. (and I'm sorry, but some bash is very necessary in Linux)
Dell has no reason to think it'll make them any money to provide it, especially when you can just download, burn and install :op
Screw 3...
I work, part-time, for a small computer assembler here in Michigan. I had been pushing Linux as an option for nearly as long as I have worked there. They just don't see a demand or want to support such a product.
To me it makes little sense, since they also provide no support for Windows as well. They could simply take the same stance as they do with Windows and everyone would be happy and they could see a slight increase in their sales on systems.
A great example is the laptop that I own. I was able to purchase it very inexpensively from them without Windows Me on it. I used the money saved to add an additional 64MB to it and loaded up Red Hat 7.1. To my surprise Red Hat 7.1 recognized all pieces of hardware in the laptop.
With Symantec's Norton Ghost being able to generate ext2fs partition back-ups, it would have been trivial for them to offer that as an option on the company web site. They could have made a decent profit on selling these laptops. I am fairly certain that if they just put them up as an option on the web site they would find people asking for those systems.
They just were not interested at all. I will do my best to continue with suggesting Linux as an option. Unfortunately, they will probably continue to brush off Linux regardless of how easy it would be for them to set machines up running it.
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If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
I have to completly agree with you on the points you mentioned above. I have heard many stroies of people screwed over by mail order as well as web ordered computer systems. There is no humanity involved in the process. Then if you hate the product and want to return it you need to pay the shipping and handling in many cases.
Do you know what the shipping cost of a 21 inch monitor, computer and a monitor is? It is darn pricey especially when you include the needed insurance.
When you break all that down and consider your choice of spending a few bucks more at a local build-it-yourself computer shop there are several things that you can get above mail order service. For one the place is local, you can take your system in there just about any time and get them to service it. Secondly, you deal directly with the people that are involved in the building of your system. By knowing you these people have a vested interest in making sure that you are happy. For that alone I would be willing to spend a few bucks more.
Maybe I am biased because I work part-time at one of those establishments. I can say that there have been many times when people have bought computers from me, solely based on the personalized service that I have provided them. A few of the customers have said that they had had terrible experiences with the giant internet and retail stores and even though they might be paying a few bucks more they find our service far superior.
Of course it could also be the standard two-day turnaround time for nearly all systems serviced in the lab. The fact that the techs know their jobs, the salespeople know what they are talking about and that our philosophy is to form friendships with our clients. Those are things that Dell, Gateway, CompUSA and any of those other huge chain stores will never match.
Think about that, the next time that you are looking to buy a PC or a component. You can go to the cold internet and save a few bucks or go to a local store and make a few friends. In time, most of those small places will end up giving you frequent client discounts that come real close to those internet prices. I know, because we do that all the time.
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If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
I don't see this as a big loss. As an tech who purchased Linux desktops from them and set them up for various departments, I can honestly say they weren't really serious about Linux support anyways. Half the machines came non-working out of the box, Dell didn't even support there Linux machines (they farmed it out), and when you go to order a Linux machine they had a link to there Windows XP upgrade service. So all and all I don't think they were ever serious about Linux.
Ok paying a M$ tax does suck. Can you get them without an OS? --
Yes but every time I try to see it your way, I get a headache.
Is this some new way of testing the durability the machines? Just how heavy is Linux anyway? From what height did they drop it?
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Ever notice how fast Windows runs? Neither did I...
especially considering Dell's primary customer base: entry- to mid-level users who only know of Windows. These people flock to Dell because of word-of-mouth advertising and magazine articles that consistently point to Dell as being the industry leader in terms of customer support and end-user satisfaction. And I can't really blame them for dropping it...they are a business, and they are obligated to make money for their shareholders, so if an idea such as offering Linux was not making money (or even worse, costing too much), then it was just a business decision.
That's capitalism.
When I got a couple of Dell systems a little while ago, they came with Windows ME. I didn't have that version of Windows yet, so I figured what the heck - keep it on. As soon as I powered the systems on and verified that they worked, I formatted them and put on Win2k. I _could_ have put WinNT, Linux, or whatever else on it.
In short, the lack of demand for Linux preinstalled doesn't show anything for the demand for Linux.
If we don't want happy Dell-enhanced Windows we CERTAINLY don't want to leave a much more configurable Linux install in their hands.... and as for those users who DO like the hand-held pre-installed setup... they're not Linux users. At least not yet.
m00.
If a windows based company goes under, it's their fault, if a Linux based company goes under, it's Linux's fault.
It's not fair, but it's what happens in the computer market. But I've felt that Linux has been trying to hard to copy Windows; why copy a bad operating system. It needs to find it's own voice and be better.
Oh man, this is no good. I know a lot of people are thinking "Fsck Dell, who cares what they do. I'll install it myself," but I was geniuinely happy to see Dell offering the choice between Linux and M$. When my friend was assembling his own PC on Dell's webpage he noticed you could save some cash by choosing Linux. He asked me about it, and I said I'd help him learn about the OS if he picked it. He did, and has been a huge Linux fan ever since. This is beautifully illustrative of the kind of cooperation between the open source community and OEMs that Linux needs to expand to the desktop world. I really hope that the other OEMs don't follow the lead of Dell, but since it is the largest of the pack I'm a little worried.
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Hey man, can I bum a sig?
Dell abandons Linux as Compaq embraces it further. Once again, the order of the universe is restored.
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
Is the real reason low demand? or do they expect better treatment from Micr0$0ft? I wonder if this has anything to do with XP desktops and perhaps placating M$ with this in order to align a deal with AOL for product placement on the desktop.... Conspiracy theorists must know!!
*narf!*
NO right? What are you, a micro wenie from the dark ages? Linux runs great for just about any type of system, given the right tools (albeit sometimes you must buy minimal tools to make it functional in very few situations)... I hate people that spew off about how "Linux has no..." bleh!
Linux runs great here at our office and on 200+ servers pushing several hundred megabits of continuous data. Tell me its not efficient, secure, cheap, and stable -- and I'll prove you wrong.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" -- George Orwell
Maybe if AOL had a desktop icon in all distros of linux Dell would have stuck with it. We all know that AOL makes everything SO EASY!!!
I may be a pool man, but I am f@#*&ng Jon Bon Jovi's pool man!!!
I'm sorry to say this but unfortunately very few home-users are going to buy a system with Linux pre-installed. Many linux users build their own system, others prefer to buy a windows system and simply place Linux on a partition so that they can boot to windows if they want to play a game thats not available on Linux, finally many Linux users have to share their computer with others who want Windows installed. I would estimate that 70-80 percent of all home Linux users fall in to those categories, maybe more. I don't particularly like Dell (or any major OEM) but it's obvious to me why they had to stop shipping out home Linux systems.
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You can still install Linux on a Dell System, you just can't buy one with Linux already installed anymore.
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I agree. I fdisk the hard drive of every new machine I acquire before I even boot it. OEM OS installs suck. I don't care if Dell starts shipping MacPC-OS99(xli! ooooh!) on it's machines ( or if it doesn't.) How many of you really want to see Grandma (or your idiot boss) using Linux anyway? How much fun would Linux be if your girlfriend though it was interesting? Pigs eat slop... Golden Retrievers eat their own turds... PT Barnum's sucker-born-every-minute uses Windows. Everything is as it should be.
The early "Ultra XGA" displays were 1400x1050. Later they replaced those with 1600x1200 displays. Both are sweet though.
catch a wave and ride till ya hit the beach
I would think that if Linux was easily available to select on the site (Home/Home Office) that a lot of average people would unknowingly select it. Or even if they meant to select it and didn't know exactly what it is. Imagine that and then a bunch of people without Internet Explorer, Outlook, and Word. Dell would get complaints, probably having to replace the computer, and therefore losing money and resources.
Our school tried to switch to Linux as our OS when we bought new computers because Linux was cheaper than Windows. It was a great idea at first, we saved money on the OS and we could use the money on other things, such as books and whatnought. But then, the day we got them, we had problems. NO ONE actually knew HOW to use Linux. We were all Window/Mac users and Linux's interface was confusing. My teacher spent most of his free time trying to figure out how to configure his email. Eventually we got used to it, but it took a LONG time. Linux is a great OS, its stable and virtually bug free. BUT, its not for computer newbies. And Dell did the right thing as most people who buy their computers don't want to use a OS that they don't understand. Plus, a lot of Apps for Windows aren't on Linux. Linux is for the uber-geek, and uber-geeks, well they build their own systems. Dell made a judgment call, and in my opinion it was a good one.
whats your deal, troll.
the article has to do with linux, the reply was about dell sucking at linux for the most part, and you start sounding off like a dell shareholder. someone mod this freak down.
(btw, your microsoft infested/generated web site sucks, you cs degree is worthless, your conduct is unbecoming, your thesis appears to be, judging from your pdf file, shoddy mental mastubation)
Cannot understand. Is that so problematic that Linux is not a consumer OS? Think about a specific 'consumer'. I don't think so that it is so important to make Linux the favorite choice of those users. Am I wrong? So it is extreme to say that cmd line is enough. But... Why Linux advocates are so frustrated that Linux is not Windows? The problem could be the advocates, not Linux.
dfszb