You can use Perl to do ASP so how are you comparing ASP which has no default language to Perl, Php or Python?
Why not at least compare say VBScript the most common default ASP scripting language or Javascript.
ASP happens to have a lot of structures that allow you to write well designed apps that are very modular. Its all about the developers. Even perl is good for huge projects if its actually managed right. This crap about one language being better than another for readability is silly. If you and your development team decide one way to write Perl then its going to be consistent. If you actually do code reviews you can keep that consistency.
Its not one language is better for a quick hack etc.
Interesting, well I suppose I should compare the relative speakers, Guido versus a Guy who spends his life bending language and thought to sound the way he wants it too:-)
I think that FSF is very justified in not considering the Python lic GPL compatible.
Put in the light that once it is compatible they have to live with it FOREVER just like Eben said.
That is not a decision they should take lightly and it is a good thing to take caution when you are talking about a Lic which thousands and thousands of projects depend on. Something such as this can undermine the integrity of everything.
The GPL needs to stand up in court but declaring it legal and then watching the Python lic go down in flames because someone abused it on their own software doesnt help GPL any at all since it was declared "compatible".
The reasons and scenarios are legally to far fetched for me to properly illustrate but unless you have been a lizard under a rock you absolutely know how extreme and far fetched software lic and the law can be.
It is not something, even if I dislike the GPL on principle, that should be taken lightly if FSF wants to see that the GPL keep as much integrity as possible until it is outright challenged in court or some such. Play it safe.
BTW: I think posting something like that obviously written only for a small and closed audience is not cool... Not that it wasnt expected given how the letter was written.
I have seen a lot of things done in PHP. What you did was grossly simplfy just about everything. I would trust PHP and a team of devleopers before I every let the word Perl roll off my tongue. Just me:)
P.S. Perl is okay as long as the project is well managed I just think PHP is designed from the ground up for a web app server whereas Perl has a Module (for anything as it tries to be EVERYTHING.) granted mod perl kicks butt.
try this again a cut and paste job..
"Plain and simple, Microsoft.NET is dead in the water. First of all, the distribution method is just plain awful. What were they thinking? No self-respecting user, be they "techno-savvy" or not, is going to take kindly to this. Secondly, the way they've handled the publicity over the past six months has been nothing short of shameful. These people make Yasser Arafat's spokesmen look like professionals. Finally, if they want this to take off, they have got to make information about it a bit more available to the general public. As it is, Microsoft.NET is a bit mystifying, and one gets the idea that they like it that way. "
First you have to make a name for yourself through your product.
Not naming any names. We are atlanta based and have several articles in the biggest news paper in the state
We also go to conventions that suite our company and public recognition doesnt just come instantly for most. You have to earn it.
Do good work, have something to show for your work and you will get recognized. Its that simple. Once you have something worthwhile to show you can create a real buzz (not just vapor hype BS) otherwise if you create a buzz and have nothing that leads to people seeing you as nothing.
Whilst I have not actually handled mnuch of the PR our parent firm is an Advertising/Marketing/PR firm who had a web dvision so to speak that did the website side of marketing and one thing went to another and now we are a software company.
Its very interesting and it takes a lot of work to gain mindshare. It also takes talking with people and getting to know othersin your business and making yourself known in your target market.
It never hurts to have someone to handle all your public relations that knows your target market whatever it is.
Much like religion as a crutch for the harder answer of.. THERE IS NO EXPLANATION.
I think its human nature to believe that we can explain away any and everything and try damn hard to say were right and your not (Religious Wars.... ANYONE?)
It is a simple fact that people have so much "Faith" in religion yet nothing to prove it except that self serving yet IMO hypocritical Faith that says a Perfect being God created us to be Imperfect. It makes no sense. Anyways then we come along with religion saying we understand all about what God intends for us. It just makes no sense and seems like a weak emotional crutch or something. I believe in God but and most of the Morals of the Bible. But I don't think that its proper for a "imperfect" human to say he can ever come close to understanding what the master of the universe intends. "Most people are not ready to be unplugged"
So flame me or whatever, say im contradicting myself.. whatever:) I dont have time to get into all my beliefs right now. I think the Matrix is quite a good jab at some of the philisophical underpinnings that humans take for granted. So to me the underlying ideas of the movie speak to me. Call it weak and underthought BS for a Movie and shallow, but I think its still real relevant. Anyhooow.
If you read up some on past news you will read about the increasingly aggresive behavior of chinese aircraft.
The manner in which the planes were damaged is hard presssed to be classified as an accident.
Think about it, why not just go ahead and say its an accident and try and force the issues of their claim to air space.
There are so many factors involved here that it is a huge political stew that China wants to stir some to end up in a better position.
One of the previous articles pointed out that because one of the few things the Chinese people can get away with is criticism of western policies. The Chinese leaders listen to this. And the hosility bred over the past years is now something they must live with and defuse along with the rest of the world.
I dont know about you but having a country full (by full were talking billions here....) of people who resent america.. thats something to be worried about.
Keep in mind I am no political expert and that I am nowhere near involved with politics.
But.. when the biggest nation in the world fucks with us, us being Americans. I take notice and study it some because its something to keep up with.
To me this whole situation seems like a grab for relations and to bolster their image as somewhat victimized by US politics.
There is also no small amount of countries related to this bashing GWB as saying this is his fault and only he could stir up such violence within his first few weeks in office.
I dont know WTF Katz is talking about.. more BS but this is just a little more blatant attempt by certain coutnries to get better foreign policy out of America.
Point and case, there have been for many years documented reports (no links im not whoring just kinda ranting) of the aggresive flight styles of the chinese pilots.
I find it hard to believe that you are going to rub the top of your airplane on the bottom of someone elses without it being a definite !accident. This didnt just happen. To be a pilot even a chinese one I bet it takes a high degree of training and skill to where you can control the craft like an extension of your own body.
This just does not *happen* by accident.
Then in the aftermath if you read the fine print the chinese etc are saying that this incident can be forgotten in exchange with some better foreign policy. (No specifics but tahts the gist of it IMO)
What better way than a bit of a catalyst and a missing chinese or two? The catalyst being this accident and they have 24 of our people being held against their will. They are holding them because they want an apology???.... Yeah right.
There is always so much more to something like this than meets the eye that Im not sure we'll ever know what goes on behind the media.
Anyways, I just think that this is posturing and China testing limits and trying to get some better policy etc. And to make GWB look bad to lose as much favor with other countries as they can. The media is doing a damn good job of playing this out and reporting just waht they want you to hear about GWB and how other countries are pissed about him not apologizing.
Another point.. OFF TOPIC: WTF is up with Comedy Central making fun of Bush. I mean they are outright trashing him in a manner I find pretty crude with their new show.
I voted for bush but would not watch a show dedicated to trashing our president, Clinton or Bush.
I just think this goes to show how democratically serving the media is at times.
Okay, so its just my cynical rant because I got a badly managed and coded project..;-P
I cant help it now I have this illogical aversion to perl.
But im not really against it honestly, Like I said its just a matter or procedure and a little common sense and consistency and any project can use it.
I really dont let it reflect on perl because I understand that it is a function of a programmers skill how elegant and clearly understood the code is (even using neat tricks you prolly wont see in other languages ive seen clearly nice and easy to read Perl)
I guess those late nights several weeks in a row brainwashed me.:) hehe.. I am still competent enough and when I need a quick program to do this or that ill whip out perl (I love ActiveState perl on windows)
I also like being able to run it on any platform (heh I almost think Perl is more cross platform than Java:)
Anyways, I was just ranting and being a lil non-sensible. I really dont hate Perl or go out of my way to see it come to an early doom:)
Yeah, Perl is actually okay for somet asks and Ill admit that most incoherent perl code is just a fault of the code writer and lack of standardization on the one true way to write perl.
Okay we can go into the theres 9,000,000 ways to do it argument here if you want but I dont see large corporations hinging their products on Perl. In Java, or C++ there is OWTDI not TIMTOWTDI;)
When you talka bout structured programming environments it simplifies the process of having a coding standard and everything if you dont have to nail down all of the frivilous details of a language.
Its just silly when you have to become granular about rather basic programming constructs and how to use them (IMO).
Im only going to stick to the theoretical here but I have found some Perl code that simly defies common sense in production level and quality code. These little 5 lines of code that consist of the bulk of a COMPLEX order processing routine are just non sense to debug. That is like a hiehgt of mismanaged and ill-thought programming. Perl allows this so much easier than most languages. Say you can write bad code in any langauge and your right. Say you can right the most incomprehensible nonsense in Perl and your even more right!
I think the programmer of the system enjoyed trying to make everything as complex as his twisted little mind could. Im not a slouch to programming really complex business systems that have insane requirements. But I just get so flustered when I inherit some project that has code that would win a Obfuscated Perl Contest hands down. Its annoying and I spent a day trolling news lists and looking over my Camel book trying to figure out how in the hell some stuff works. Blah. behaviors change from version to version. No standards body controlling perl. (Not that the C/C++/Java people do much better..) and a ton of other factors just lead to this dislike for perl in a real business environment that has comple business needs. Perl for everything right, Not.. Everything has its place. The highend of business programming is not it for Perl.
okay I feel much better now..
/me quietly goes back to his hole in the wall and codes.
And how are you going to feed your family or pay for that fancy degree from princeton with all that free writing your doing? Oh.. wait.. never mind you must have money already!
Oh come on its the childish if your not abd you dont need encyrption analogy.
Consider for a moment you are collaborating about some hot business idea and you just dont want anyone in the world but the other person your collaborating with to see. Ok sure throw out the "Just meet them in person" responses or you shouldnt be doing that on the net anyways. But..
There are those of us who believe that it should be possible to securely talk with each other over the internet.. Without worrying about our encyrption being cracked.
Considering you can write ASP in Perl I would say that your not propelry informed. You can do ASP in JScript, Perl, VBScript etc.
Given that all of those are available to ASP use whichever you like to your hearts content.
The most common language is VBScript in ASP. However I have seen them all used to varying degrees of coherency and success. (The perl parts being the least coherent and most painful to fix... odd) Anyways apples and oranges. Cant compare ASP to Perl. Try comparing VBScript to Perl. Then we can get a good discussion about two languages going.
Yes, yes is, he is a master.
We need people like him on our side:-\
He could make that interview do a 180 if he replied differently.
It is that trait that makes him into a good Executive. Keep in mind no matter what hes doing his job of being a higher official at Microsoft he has to speak the party line and he does it oh so well. No wonder he doesnt have to check with public relations before he replies to a public community. He is a PR god;)
Slashdot Mirror
I know that in FreeBSD its quick and painless to put a X MB memory limit on a shell account.
You can also limit the number of processes etc that a user can have. Quick and easy.
Jeremy
You dont know the first thing about ASP.
You can use Perl to do ASP so how are you comparing ASP which has no default language to Perl, Php or Python?
Why not at least compare say VBScript the most common default ASP scripting language or Javascript.
ASP happens to have a lot of structures that allow you to write well designed apps that are very modular. Its all about the developers. Even perl is good for huge projects if its actually managed right. This crap about one language being better than another for readability is silly. If you and your development team decide one way to write Perl then its going to be consistent. If you actually do code reviews you can keep that consistency.
Its not one language is better for a quick hack etc.
Your just pro-zope bash everything else.
Jeremy
Interesting, well I suppose I should compare the relative speakers, Guido versus a Guy who spends his life bending language and thought to sound the way he wants it too :-)
Jeremy
I am [TV] Bah
See here for her actual opinon
Ehh she is Pre-Med so the blood thing obviously doesnt bother her
Jeremy
Hehe yeah.. ok...
:)
Evidence: Article 1
While this doesnt prove anything since its all the internet I can tell you with absolute certainty she is 100% woman
Jeremy
I think that FSF is very justified in not considering the Python lic GPL compatible.
Put in the light that once it is compatible they have to live with it FOREVER just like Eben said.
That is not a decision they should take lightly and it is a good thing to take caution when you are talking about a Lic which thousands and thousands of projects depend on. Something such as this can undermine the integrity of everything.
The GPL needs to stand up in court but declaring it legal and then watching the Python lic go down in flames because someone abused it on their own software doesnt help GPL any at all since it was declared "compatible".
The reasons and scenarios are legally to far fetched for me to properly illustrate but unless you have been a lizard under a rock you absolutely know how extreme and far fetched software lic and the law can be.
It is not something, even if I dislike the GPL on principle, that should be taken lightly if FSF wants to see that the GPL keep as much integrity as possible until it is outright challenged in court or some such. Play it safe.
BTW: I think posting something like that obviously written only for a small and closed audience is not cool... Not that it wasnt expected given how the letter was written.
Jeremy
My GF thinks Counter-Strike is cool....
:)
To each their own
Hehe
Jeremy
This isnt revolutionary.. who here hasnt used a Handheld Computing device?
Dammit, your always smiling so much Jeremy. Hehe it forces me to smile :-) in :-) reply :-)
:-) microsoft :-) with :-) samba :-)
Me thinks your just happy to undermine
Jeremy (Yeah its my name too:-)
PHP is a full blown web application server.
:)
I have seen a lot of things done in PHP. What you did was grossly simplfy just about everything. I would trust PHP and a team of devleopers before I every let the word Perl roll off my tongue. Just me
P.S. Perl is okay as long as the project is well managed I just think PHP is designed from the ground up for a web app server whereas Perl has a Module (for anything as it tries to be EVERYTHING.) granted mod perl kicks butt.
Jeremy
That was cute :)
You are so full of BS.
try this again a cut and paste job.. "Plain and simple, Microsoft.NET is dead in the water. First of all, the distribution method is just plain awful. What were they thinking? No self-respecting user, be they "techno-savvy" or not, is going to take kindly to this. Secondly, the way they've handled the publicity over the past six months has been nothing short of shameful. These people make Yasser Arafat's spokesmen look like professionals. Finally, if they want this to take off, they have got to make information about it a bit more available to the general public. As it is, Microsoft.NET is a bit mystifying, and one gets the idea that they like it that way. "
Gee could you elaborate a little?
Jeremy
It is more than just press releases.
First you have to make a name for yourself through your product.
Not naming any names. We are atlanta based and have several articles in the biggest news paper in the state
We also go to conventions that suite our company and public recognition doesnt just come instantly for most. You have to earn it.
Do good work, have something to show for your work and you will get recognized. Its that simple. Once you have something worthwhile to show you can create a real buzz (not just vapor hype BS) otherwise if you create a buzz and have nothing that leads to people seeing you as nothing.
Whilst I have not actually handled mnuch of the PR our parent firm is an Advertising/Marketing/PR firm who had a web dvision so to speak that did the website side of marketing and one thing went to another and now we are a software company.
Its very interesting and it takes a lot of work to gain mindshare. It also takes talking with people and getting to know othersin your business and making yourself known in your target market.
It never hurts to have someone to handle all your public relations that knows your target market whatever it is.
Jeremy
Haha, to be cheesy.
:) I dont have time to get into all my beliefs right now. I think the Matrix is quite a good jab at some of the philisophical underpinnings that humans take for granted. So to me the underlying ideas of the movie speak to me. Call it weak and underthought BS for a Movie and shallow, but I think its still real relevant. Anyhooow.
Much like religion as a crutch for the harder answer of.. THERE IS NO EXPLANATION.
I think its human nature to believe that we can explain away any and everything and try damn hard to say were right and your not (Religious Wars.... ANYONE?)
It is a simple fact that people have so much "Faith" in religion yet nothing to prove it except that self serving yet IMO hypocritical Faith that says a Perfect being God created us to be Imperfect. It makes no sense. Anyways then we come along with religion saying we understand all about what God intends for us. It just makes no sense and seems like a weak emotional crutch or something. I believe in God but and most of the Morals of the Bible. But I don't think that its proper for a "imperfect" human to say he can ever come close to understanding what the master of the universe intends. "Most people are not ready to be unplugged"
So flame me or whatever, say im contradicting myself.. whatever
Jeremy
Same thing was said about QIII...
Jeremy
He prolly has a dialup 56K or less
;)
;p
That aint internet access whatever it is
Hell I have a 1.1mbit SDSL at home and I am constnatly bitching about our ISDN at work.
Jeremy
I don't think this was an accident at all.
If you read up some on past news you will read about the increasingly aggresive behavior of chinese aircraft.
The manner in which the planes were damaged is hard presssed to be classified as an accident.
Think about it, why not just go ahead and say its an accident and try and force the issues of their claim to air space.
There are so many factors involved here that it is a huge political stew that China wants to stir some to end up in a better position.
One of the previous articles pointed out that because one of the few things the Chinese people can get away with is criticism of western policies. The Chinese leaders listen to this. And the hosility bred over the past years is now something they must live with and defuse along with the rest of the world.
Jeremy
I dont know about you but having a country full (by full were talking billions here....) of people who resent america.. thats something to be worried about.
Jeremy
My take on this.
Keep in mind I am no political expert and that I am nowhere near involved with politics.
But.. when the biggest nation in the world fucks with us, us being Americans. I take notice and study it some because its something to keep up with.
To me this whole situation seems like a grab for relations and to bolster their image as somewhat victimized by US politics.
There is also no small amount of countries related to this bashing GWB as saying this is his fault and only he could stir up such violence within his first few weeks in office.
I dont know WTF Katz is talking about.. more BS but this is just a little more blatant attempt by certain coutnries to get better foreign policy out of America.
Point and case, there have been for many years documented reports (no links im not whoring just kinda ranting) of the aggresive flight styles of the chinese pilots.
I find it hard to believe that you are going to rub the top of your airplane on the bottom of someone elses without it being a definite !accident. This didnt just happen. To be a pilot even a chinese one I bet it takes a high degree of training and skill to where you can control the craft like an extension of your own body.
This just does not *happen* by accident. Then in the aftermath if you read the fine print the chinese etc are saying that this incident can be forgotten in exchange with some better foreign policy. (No specifics but tahts the gist of it IMO)
What better way than a bit of a catalyst and a missing chinese or two? The catalyst being this accident and they have 24 of our people being held against their will. They are holding them because they want an apology???.... Yeah right.
There is always so much more to something like this than meets the eye that Im not sure we'll ever know what goes on behind the media.
Anyways, I just think that this is posturing and China testing limits and trying to get some better policy etc. And to make GWB look bad to lose as much favor with other countries as they can. The media is doing a damn good job of playing this out and reporting just waht they want you to hear about GWB and how other countries are pissed about him not apologizing.
Another point.. OFF TOPIC: WTF is up with Comedy Central making fun of Bush. I mean they are outright trashing him in a manner I find pretty crude with their new show.
I voted for bush but would not watch a show dedicated to trashing our president, Clinton or Bush.
I just think this goes to show how democratically serving the media is at times.
Jeremy
Okay, so its just my cynical rant because I got a badly managed and coded project.. ;-P
:) hehe.. I am still competent enough and when I need a quick program to do this or that ill whip out perl (I love ActiveState perl on windows)
:)
:)
I cant help it now I have this illogical aversion to perl.
But im not really against it honestly, Like I said its just a matter or procedure and a little common sense and consistency and any project can use it.
I really dont let it reflect on perl because I understand that it is a function of a programmers skill how elegant and clearly understood the code is (even using neat tricks you prolly wont see in other languages ive seen clearly nice and easy to read Perl)
I guess those late nights several weeks in a row brainwashed me.
I also like being able to run it on any platform (heh I almost think Perl is more cross platform than Java
Anyways, I was just ranting and being a lil non-sensible. I really dont hate Perl or go out of my way to see it come to an early doom
Jeremy
Yeah, Perl is actually okay for somet asks and Ill admit that most incoherent perl code is just a fault of the code writer and lack of standardization on the one true way to write perl.
;)
/me quietly goes back to his hole in the wall and codes.
Okay we can go into the theres 9,000,000 ways to do it argument here if you want but I dont see large corporations hinging their products on Perl. In Java, or C++ there is OWTDI not TIMTOWTDI
When you talka bout structured programming environments it simplifies the process of having a coding standard and everything if you dont have to nail down all of the frivilous details of a language.
Its just silly when you have to become granular about rather basic programming constructs and how to use them (IMO).
Im only going to stick to the theoretical here but I have found some Perl code that simly defies common sense in production level and quality code. These little 5 lines of code that consist of the bulk of a COMPLEX order processing routine are just non sense to debug. That is like a hiehgt of mismanaged and ill-thought programming. Perl allows this so much easier than most languages. Say you can write bad code in any langauge and your right. Say you can right the most incomprehensible nonsense in Perl and your even more right!
I think the programmer of the system enjoyed trying to make everything as complex as his twisted little mind could. Im not a slouch to programming really complex business systems that have insane requirements. But I just get so flustered when I inherit some project that has code that would win a Obfuscated Perl Contest hands down. Its annoying and I spent a day trolling news lists and looking over my Camel book trying to figure out how in the hell some stuff works. Blah. behaviors change from version to version. No standards body controlling perl. (Not that the C/C++/Java people do much better..) and a ton of other factors just lead to this dislike for perl in a real business environment that has comple business needs. Perl for everything right, Not.. Everything has its place. The highend of business programming is not it for Perl.
okay I feel much better now..
Jeremy
Another wanker with a half-thought idea.
And how are you going to feed your family or pay for that fancy degree from princeton with all that free writing your doing? Oh.. wait.. never mind you must have money already!
Jeremy
Oh come on its the childish if your not abd you dont need encyrption analogy.
Consider for a moment you are collaborating about some hot business idea and you just dont want anyone in the world but the other person your collaborating with to see. Ok sure throw out the "Just meet them in person" responses or you shouldnt be doing that on the net anyways. But..
There are those of us who believe that it should be possible to securely talk with each other over the internet.. Without worrying about our encyrption being cracked.
Anyways,
Jeremy
Considering you can write ASP in Perl I would say that your not propelry informed. You can do ASP in JScript, Perl, VBScript etc.
Given that all of those are available to ASP use whichever you like to your hearts content.
The most common language is VBScript in ASP. However I have seen them all used to varying degrees of coherency and success. (The perl parts being the least coherent and most painful to fix... odd) Anyways apples and oranges. Cant compare ASP to Perl. Try comparing VBScript to Perl. Then we can get a good discussion about two languages going.
Jeremy
Yes, yes is, he is a master. :-\
;)
We need people like him on our side
He could make that interview do a 180 if he replied differently.
It is that trait that makes him into a good Executive. Keep in mind no matter what hes doing his job of being a higher official at Microsoft he has to speak the party line and he does it oh so well. No wonder he doesnt have to check with public relations before he replies to a public community. He is a PR god
Jeremy