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Tribes2 and Alpha Centauri for Linux
Time Doctor writes: "Wow, Tribes 2 and Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri are actually shipping from Loki next week :-)
Faith has brought Linux Gamers two new games, and if sales are good, more will come. Sure we had some sad news today about the Indrema, but, keep hope alive! (thanks to Linux Games for the tip)."
Guess they either (a) found a different packaging solution, or (hopefully!) (b) got some money!
All right, how is Linux "targeted primarily at political leftists?"
- Civ:CTP -- 1 month behind
- Railroad Tycoon 2: Gold Edition: 2 weeks behind Windows release of Gold Edition
- Quake 3: simo if you preordered the CD, 3 weeks if you waited for the tins
- SC3U: 3 months
- Tribes 2: 1 month (3 weeks?)
Now. Some of the other titles (Descent 3, Myth 2) were a bit older, but GEEZ. That's a decent track record. It's better than the other companies in this market...Works fine on Radeons, too. Rage 128's take a little tweaking, and you lose some visual quality, but you can get that working just fine, too.
So bitch at developers to use libraries like SDL. MS loves nothing more than developers using MS propriatary libraries. With stuff like SDL, you write your code once, maybe make a few minor enhancements on each platform, and then you can run anywhere.
Yeah, I probably will, but maybe not right away. Need to start making real money again. :-) As soon as i get another programming contract...
I do plan to buy SMAC and SC3K, and maybe Tribes if my 'doze using friends are into that. Hopefully Tribes is one of those games that can be played w/the 'doze version.
Ouch. Any idea how much Loki pockets from each of those, after packaging/shipping costs, but before salaries, rent, etc?
... Loki, the original maker, or the retail store?
I'm guessing for a $45 game... $20 to the retail store, including shipping it there... $6 for packaging & book & CD, $10 for royalties to the 'doze producer of the game. That leaves... $9.
Yikes I hope I'm off somewhere. Anyone have any real numbers or more educated guesses?
And what happens when the game starts selling for under $20? Who looses the most
Well at least Linux HAS the games.
And I fail to understand why games cease to be 'great' ast time passes. Heck, Pac-Man and Centipede are still great games! Not as in-depth as today's games, sure, but they're still great for what they are.
And I for one really want to see Linux replace Windows as the de-facto desktop OS. This is an absolutely necessary step for that to happen. Sure, it would be much better if all games were released concurrently on both platforms. And some are, or nearly so. But late is better than never.
I'll probably take them up on that $59 deal. And since I know their margins must be tight right now, would it be better just to buy it from their site instead of a reseller?
I know it's good to show resellers that there's an interest in Linux games, but as another post mentioned, if they only sell 1000-2000 copies per game, Loki really needs as much money as they can get.
I cannot overstate the importance of these two titles for Linux gaming. As most of you know, the expirmental retail Linux release of Quake 3 was, by publishing standards, a failure. Linux Tribes 2 is the most high-profile port since Q3, and rest assured both industry developers and publishers will once again be watching to determine if Linux is worth their time. Furthermore, Loki cannot continue to port titles if the ones they do publish are not purchased; so spread the word (many Linux users were unaware Loki had ported anything beyond Civilization: Call to Power) if you want Linux gaming to be a viable option. It's even more difficult for Linux porters (Loki, Tribsoft, Hyperion) to make a profit on their work considering they have to mark up the retail price to recoup the inherent losses that go with filling a niche market (Win32 titles can sell for much lower due to established publishers, retail chains, customers, etc.)... it's a vicious circle, but the only way to break it is to support what's out there now to forge the foundation for later growth.
In short, holding off Linux game purchases because the releases are not timely (i.e., on par with Windows) or cheap will ensure that they will always be neither.
Btw, as has been stated elsewhere on this story, Linux Tribes 2 is being released only 2 weeks after the Win32 version, which is hardly a significant period of time.
:wq
You do know who published Asheron's Call, don't you?
Three guesses.
Still don't know? It's Microsoft. Microsoft will NEVER actually let any game with their name all over it be ported to Linux. Trust me.
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
Why do you think they bought Bungie? You do know that the X-Box version of Halo will be the first to ship, right? They needed a platform title, and apparently nobody else inhouse came up with anything management deemed "good enough", so they dug into the cash reserves, and bought up another company with a promising title, and told them "This game will be on the X-Box. It will not be on any other console. The X-Box version will come first. No questions."
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
OTOH, there are so few Linux titles out there that you could simply "take a chance" on a title that you might not otherwise purchase.
Pleasant surprises aren't entirely impossible.
Besides, there is no dishonor inherent with purchasing with more than just your immediate utility in mind.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Loki itself already has more than 10.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It's from Sid Meiers. It is not a "clone".
It is infact the real thing.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
What quality software?
Many of us object to wasting our money on crap, only to be forced into wasting more money on the same crap next year. In order for your claim to be true, there would have to be some quality wares to draw a comparison on.
Most consumer software (games or not) is simply crap. Game companies quite often shove games out the door prematurely depending on that 1st patch to fix things afterwards.
Linux took of not just because it was cheap and reliable. It also happened to support common consumer PC hardware before any of it's payware competitors did (Next, Sun).
It does one no good to BUY a $400 copy of NeXTstep if it won't even support your HD controller or CDROM drive.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
That's funny, my copy of Mandrake 7.2 will setup a G400 with 3D acceleration straight out of the box no muss no fuss.
Game binaries installed under Redhat for my Vodoo2 "just work" as does newer stuff like Heavy Gear 2.
Even when I was running the V2 & V3 it wasn't any of the things you describe it as.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Actually, the V4 and G400 work quite well with modern distributions, straight out of the box, with NO FUTZING whatsoever.
Even the V2 performed adequately back in the day. Installation (using 3dfx's own instructions and rpms) were also a breeze. The only "interesting" part of the process was making that little 3dfx device module.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Who cares what other people think? Linux will still be there. People who care will still write code for it. Linux will continue to get better. Anyone who doesn't use it is losing out but it's their loss, not yours.
Leave well enough alone. I want games. I don't have Windows at all, and I don't even have very modern hardware (still using a celeron 1), so I don't care if I have to play older games. In fact I prefer it. I'd rather get the cream of the crop than have to wade through the mountains of shit, like the Windows gamers have to do.
Huzzah for Loki. I've bought all your releases so far and I'm buying the next two right now.
Who said anything about keeping it to myself? The whole point of Linux is that everyone can use it, share it, enjoy it, participate.
If they choose not to participate, then it is THEIR LOSS. But that doesn't affect me. Drivers? I won't get *less* drivers if they don't want to join in. You seem to believe not having something is a loss, even though you didn't have that same thing before! That's not a loss: that's called a break-even situation.
So let the "Linux is a toy" people enjoy their brief feelings of superiority. In 12 months time half of them will probably be using Linux. In 24 months time they'll be wondering how they got by with the crap they used before.
Now, fast forward to Tribes 2, which was initially heralded as a Windows/Mac simultaneous release. The Mac version was quietly cancelled last year. The PC version just came out two weeks ago... and large numbers of users complained when it crashed frequently. The release was really only beta-quality, and a handful of patches appeared over the next few days and nights to hastily fix the worst problems.
On the in-game news board, Sierra actually posted an apology for the poor quality of the initial release, but they tried to defend themselves by pointing out the various hardware configurations they had to code for:
And thus they said they had to test over 75,000 different hardware configurations, so it's inevitable there would be some problems. (Not to mention that they wrote it for OpenGL and for Direct3D!) They end their apology by saying: "So now you can understand why developers are so interested in the Xbox."
I just have to point out that if Sierra had released the game on the Mac first, they would only have had to write it to support OpenGL and InputSprockets, which every Mac ships with support for out-of-the-box. Once they were sure the engine was solid, it would have been much easier at that point to work on the Windows port.
Sure, it would have postponed their Windows profits to release on the Mac first... but how much money has Sierra already lost through returns by people who couldn't get the game to run, through having to pay a support staff to handle the complaints and a dev team to work on patches ASAP, and through the bad word-of-mouth that the game's quality is terrible?
(Of course, this is the same Sierra which refused to release an almost-completed Mac Half-Life, and which cancelled the Babylon 5 game for which special video had been shot with the original series actors. Maybe money grows off trees in their land.)
Utah-GLX is unsupported, however (architechtural weaknesses don't allow the framerates to get up high enough for reasonable play except on the hottest boxes)- if you've got a G400, you should be getting XFree86 4.0.X, the latest DRM, etc.
Suffice it to say, I'm buying it.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Nope.
I already own copies of Civ:CTP, Railroad Tycoon 2, Myth2, Descent 3, and HOMM3. Now that they've announced SMAC is shipping, I have placed an order for that too.
I also have set aside the funds to purchase Deus Ex and Kohan as soon as they ship.
I've made a decision to quit buying Windows games and so far I've done a pretty good job of sticking to it. (I couldn't pass up System Shock 2 in the bargain bin though...) At this point, the only systems I have for playing games are my Debian Linux PC and my N64. This severely limits my choices in games, but so far Loki has ported nearly all of the games I might have purchased for Windows. (Now don't I sound overly pretentious)
Time and again the general public has voted with its wallets and bought Windows ME as a games platform or a playstation/dreamcast etc.
Reality check: More games are available for Windows than for linux. This is because (until recently) the interest in linux gaming has been fairly small - only recently has linux started taking a place on desktop machines, and thus only recently has there been much demand for games to run under linux. Taking that headstart into account, along with the fact that (through illegal means) MS has the majority of desktops cornered - it's tough to buy a machine from a major vendor WITHOUT Windows (note: tough, not impossible) - it's only natural that support for gaming APIs would be rather small at the moment. Loki has been doing a phenomenal job of getting some great games running under linux - I suggest you take a look.
Why do Linux people continue with the fantasy that their operating system is anything other than a tool for elitist, arrogant techies (nost of whom long for the days when computers were hard to use, and resent Microsoft for making computers easy for the man in the street).
I could go on...
I also disagree with you about MS "making it easy" for people. Reality check: MS is only perceived as "easy" because everyone uses it. If your first experience with a computer is MS Windows - that's what will seem easy to you 2 years down the road. If your first experience was a *nix desktop, 2 years down the road THAT would seem easy to you. It's all a matter of perspective.
The Market has spoken, and it has said DirectX. Loud and clear, the message of the market is OpenGL sucks, DirectX rules. (I am speaking in simplistic terms here so the less intelligent slashdot morons can understand me).
One word: Bull.
To elaborate, "the market" only shows a strong showing for DirectX (a proprietary MS API) because Windows (a proprietary MS OS) has a vastly larger installation base (on desktops) than anything else right now. Naturally, more games will be available for it - and as a game developer, you'd be silly not to take advantage of any useful API that your host OS offers. That being said, many development houses are starting to see that there are better ways of doing graphics than DirectX. Take Baldur's Gate II for example - it uses OpenGL for graphics, but also makes use of DirectX for sound and other things. It's a case of using the best tool in your current toolkit for the job at hand. If your toolkit is MS Windows, then DirectX is in there, and can be used. Under linux, it's doubtful that you'll see support for a closed, proprietary API designed for an architecturally dissimilar OS. What you might see is a similar API developed in an open fashion (IE: done the "linux way") - but these things take time, and VERY few people are paid to do this stuff full-time. So...it can take a while. Linux is definitely capable of being as good of a gaming host OS as Windows - it just requires that developers spend the time to develop for it, and marketers to realize that there IS indeed a gaming market out there that WANTS to buy linux games. The availibility of dual-boot, however, stymies this a bit when developers release for Windows first -- as many people who would buy the linux version instead buy the Windows version, simply because it is available first.
Fact: Linux cannot and will not succeed in the games market. Period. Until it has good support for DirectX.
Reality check: DirectX is an API for Windows. Linux and Windows are dissimilar architecturally, so you're not going to see "DirectX for linux" anytime soon.
This, of course, isn't stopping Loki from porting games to linux. As linux gaming matures, I'm sure we WILL see a standardized API for direct system calls to hardware coalesce - it may not be there right now - but give it some time - linux gaming is still fairly new. Let Loki, id, and the other linux-gaming-friendly companies get some more games out, and start getting SIMULTANEOUS releases of games - then you'll start to see the market for linux games jump - and THEN you'll start seeing things like standardized APIs get discussed.
Unfortunately this will never happen because of the linux crowds pathological jealousy and hatred of Microsoft. Nonetheless it is the ONLY way that Linux is ever likely to get any real games support.
The linux crowd simply sees beyond the wool that's been pulled over your eyes. Microsoft has illegally forced it's grossly inferior product into a position of dominance - and has been supported by the government practically every step of the way. Do you think it's in Microsoft's best interests to EVER open the DirectX API, such that a port could even be conceived? No. Microsoft is in the business of making money. It's something they're very good at. They're conspiring with other large corporate interests (RIAA, MPAA, etc...) to strip your rights away. They want to make you RENT your OS, and the apps that run on it. They don't want you to have a choice.
Then again, I guess everything I've just said is completely irrational, isn't it?
Do us a favor, and crawl back under your bridge where it's dark and safe. Cuddle up with your "Tickle-Me-Steve-Ballmer" and your "Sleep-n-Snore-Bill-Gates", and stop spreading groundless FUD.
I, of course, am prone to being completely wrong.
... Aspyr seems to be the Loki of Mac games, and at this point there may be more Linux users than Mac users :p
If Sierra wanted, they could contract the mac port to Aspyr (who did Deus Ex, Sims, IIRC Unreal, etc)...
Your Working Boy,
- Otis (GAIM: OtisWild)
the API`s are not as straightforward in use as DX is (im not talking performance or design here)
I've never heard of someone complaining of the obtuseness of OpenGL or SDL and praising DirectX's ease-of-use. I have heard the opposite, from the likes of John Carmack. I haven't found OGL or SDL to be non-straightforward. Clearly there is a level of opinion involved, but if which API someone finds more straightforward is based solely on personal preference, then you can't claim either is superior across the board.
and they allways work as predicted
I assume you mean DX always works as predicted, even though your wording would indicate that clause applied to Linux's API's.
Anyway, that is unsubstantiated, and contrary with experience. Are you really going to expect me to believe that DirectX always does what is expected, and that SDL/OpenGL frequently do not?
The large number of Linux distributions confuses and potentially compromise compatibility.
Ya know, just once I want to get into one of these discussions without hearing an argument that's 5 years old. The distribution issue has demonstrably not been a significant issue. I guess the keyword here is "potentially". Yeah, there is a non-0 probability of compatability problems. Then again there is a non-0 probability of compatability problems between win9x versions (including service pack numbers), and a significant probability of problems between NT and 9x. But I haven't seen vendors getting "confused" about that.
This is a huge FUD argument, and I'm dissapointed you felt it necessary to resort to it.
DX supports most, if not all, top of the bill hardware, whereas Linux hw-drivers will usually lag a little. The potential user base is much larger,
A good point. The reason DX keeps up is because the hw vendors make drivers for it (because of larger user base). As linux market share increases, the vendors will begin to target linux more (witness Nvidia), and that disparity should decrease and eventually vanish. Adopting DirectX now wouldn't help, though, since the drivers would still have to be made to work under Linux. Remember, DX is an interface to drivers, not the other way around.
windows games rarely need (debug) patches afterwards, free or not.
This is a joke, right? I'm not sure if I should argue, or just laugh.
Anyway, since my roomate is a heavy player of Win games, I know for a fact that this is BS. And having seen the number of patches released because of problems with DirectX, I conclude your earlier point about DX always "doing what it is supposed to" is also BS.
You may not like what is, but that`s not a reason to kill a man`s opinion.
I'm not killing his opinion, I'm pointing out the fallacies in his logic. I don't dislike his opinion on DX, I just disagree (i dislike his opinion of the community, but that's because it is an invention). If he can't back up his conclusion with reasonable arguments, then perhaps he's just wrong. It is possible to be wrong.
There are reasons why Linux could use DirectX, such as the prevalence of Windows games that use it. Everyone knows Linux is a small market (for now, I hope). Most of the other arguments made by him and you are either unsubstantiated or outright wrong.
The enemies of Democracy are
I'm sorry, but the whole of the gaming worl uses it.
Except for that which doesn't.
Even consoles are getting it, like the XBox.
Haha. XBox is 1) made by MS, who by chance also makes DirectX and 2) basically a PC in a pretty box. Try again when PS2 uses DirectX.
Games that don't use it, such as WuakeIII, are very dificult to install.
What are you talking about? DirectX has nothing to do with installing (other than every game wants you to install DirectX, even if you already have it)? InstallShield works no matter what, and if you'd ever used Loki's installer, you'd know they aren't any different.
You people need to buy things.
You need to grab a clue about the "people" you're talking about. Seriously, you sound like a microserf from 1996 talking about us "longhairs who want everything for free".
Normal people=market.
Wow, almost a point. Yeah, Linux won't be a gaming platform until it gets bigger market share. How +1, insightful.
12 month old crap like what is being touted here
Like Tribes2? Damn, if you've had it for 12 months, why have you been holding out?
I suspect I will be flamed and modded down for this, but it is the truth.
Yeah, if "truth" means FUD based on other 5-year old FUD.
The enemies of Democracy are
This is all that matters though...
http://www.gamespy.com/stats/
Search first, ask questions later.
How is this a troll? It is relevant. It is on-topic. It is a good reply to the parent comment. Somebody give the moderators a clue.
Subject: It's Play Time: SMAC to Ship Next Week!
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:47:28 -0700
From: Kayt Sorhaindo
Organization: Loki Software, Inc.
Newsgroups: loki.games.smac
IT'S PLAY TIME
Not one, but TWO Linux games will ship next week from Loki Software,
Inc.
Tribes 2 will be HOT on the heals of the Windows release by Sierra
On-Line, and the long-awaited Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri Planetary Pack
by Firaxis will also make its Linux debut.
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri Planetary Pack will ship to resellers on
Monday, April 16, with the low MSRP of $29.95. Tribes 2 will follow suit
on Wednesday, April 18, with an MSRP of $49.95.
Can't resist both of these exciting games? Take advantage of a
promotional bundle and receive both for the special price of $59.95.
This offer is available directly from Loki and from select resellers.
[Note that the Loki webstore will not be updated for another 48 hours
with this new information]
Look for these products at your favorite online reseller.
For more information visit www.lokigames.com.
Enjoy!
- Loki Software, Inc.
"The purpose of argument is to change the nature of truth." -- Bene Gesserit Precept
Your attitude is infuriating. It is frankly seriously fucked that a shifting sea of libraries, versions of X, kernels, and the like make Linux support of any given game something of a crap shoot. Read me lips and read them well: this situation is broken and the situation in Windows is far better.
This is only true of the game sector. My Linux machine serves primarily as a SOHO server and development environment, and works really well for that. As a gaming platform, Linux is a bloody mess, and I frankly expect anyone who tries to sell it as one to fail horribly until the situation stabilizes - and there's no reason to believe that it will.
A year from now, the Wall Street Journal will be writing about the severe slowdown of Linux and other open source projects caused by Tribes 2. Is that what you're telling us?
ObJectBridge (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Finding God in a Dog
Will I buy it? Hell fucking yeah. I've been dying for a copy of Alpha Centauri for Linux for ages. Now I can finally get rid of Windows 95. Between Alpha Centauri and Maelstrom, I'm going bonkers on games. All I need now is to find the old text-based Infocom games for Linux and I'm set for life. Actually, a copy of Ultima 4 for Linux wouldn't hurt either. But that might be stretching it.
ObJectBridge (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.
Finding God in a Dog
I agree. Loki keeps coming out with games I don't want, so my Windows partition has to hang around.
Come out with Chaos Gate, Counter-Strike, Rogue Spear, and Swat 3, then we'll talk.
Just come out with Counter-Strike and Rogue spear, and I'll live without Chaos Gate and Swat 3.
-
Go play Tac-Ops (which works under Linux).
Thanks, but I prefer games that don't think SPAS means "Special Purpose Airsoft Shotgun", which the Tactical-Ops web page has said for at least six months.
(I assume you meant Tactical-Ops, not Tac-Ops, which is an old DOS wargame.)
-
Did you notice that Soldier of Fortune is in the "Home Office" category? One has to wonder what sort of people they're employing...
Remember, these aren't the requirements that Loki thought up, these are the requirements of the game according to the original developers. I personally like games and my buddy has been playing Tribes 2 for a week now and it looks great. I like being able to play games on my Linux box, it just means i need to have the hardware to do it. And in reference to games like Diablo, last time I checked, Loki tried and Blizzard said no. Not much you can do about that.
I wouldn't worry about problems with the game if I were you. I have basically every game that Loki has released and they all perform as well as or better then their Windows releases (Loki is known in their newgroups to point out the bugs that they know of but can't fix so that the game remains compatible with the windows version).
The only warning I would give you is that alot of the games Loki released are extremely addictive. =)
Ask Loki. They ported Heavy Gear Solid 2 to Linux and it was a DX game. From what I've heard, it's more stable under Linux with OpenGL too.
No. I do not pirate it.
In the example for UT the binaries are avalible for download, I am not going to buy Deus Ex for Linux because I have already finished it, there is no replay value in it for me. (I finished it a few times already.)
I have considered purchasing the game a second time however. What I *DO* do is wait to buy a game if there is an announcement that there will be a Linux version. If this is the case, I will wait. If not, and I want the game? I buy it. (And do the reg-card thing)
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
I pre-bought Quake 3 For Linux, and I had to wait some time for it too because Loki was shipping to US customers first (I am Canadian). I recieved it some time after the Windows version was in stores, it also cost me almost twice as much as the Windows version.
:)
I am not going to bitch about that though, I bought the Linux version because I believe in supporting Linux.
When I purchased Unreal Tournament, there was no official Linux version. I sent my registration card back to Epic, and scrawled across the top in bright red ink were the words: "PURCHASED FOR USE WITH LINUX", lo and behold, there is official support from Loki for UT now.
I bought Deus Ex the instant it hit the shelves (I own anything and everything to do with Warren Spector), I did the same with this, sending the registration card to Edios with the same words on it.
Next thing I know there is a announcement about Deus Ex for Linux. Unfortunatly I had already finished Deus Ex. =( I would have waited had I known.
I knew Tribes 2 was coming out for Linux. That is why I did not buy the Windows version. I knew the Linux version would eventually come. My friend went into EB World and asked about the Linux version of Tribes 2, and he got a scoff from the sales person, "Linux? Who uses that? No, we don't carry any Linux software." My friend bought the Windows version (and now has a Linux server running) and the salesperson said "Heh, still gonna buy the Windows version eh?"
My friend responded "Yeah, I guess I don't have a CHOICE."
Just to be a bastard (Yeah, I have read the Advocacy how-to) I went into that EB World, picked up Tribes 2, and said "Cool! Tribes 2!" (With the same sales person next to me) I made a pretense of looking at the side of the box and then said, "Hmmm, it mentions the Linux server here on the side of the box, but nothing about the Linux client." He got smug again and said "Nah, we don't carry and Linux games."
I said "Oh, too bad, guess I will have to buy my games off of the internet then... bye." (Most of the local LUG is going to go do this to EB World...
Probably not the best solution, I don't know if I would reccomend that one...
So, yes, I buy Linux versions of software whenever it is avalible, and I make it known that I want more Linux software avaliable. My friend Todd who purchased Tribes 2 at EB World will probably play the game under both Windows and Linux, and certanly run the server on Linux, but he won't wait for the Linux versions of games, and he certanly won't pay more for them.
I can't say as I blame him really. It is not fair that we have to wait longer, its even less fair that the same software should cost more for Linux. So, if you can't be bothered to actually buy a Linux version of a game, fill out the registration card (Marketers for software companies take these *VERY* seriously, I know the ones at my work do!) and write in big bold letters "PURCHASED FOR USE WITH LINUX."
If you can't vote with your dollars (which is the best idea) then vote with the registration cards. It makes a huge difference.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
I'll be buying Tribes 2 for Linux. I recently purged my windows systems which were only used for games. I'm happily gaming on Linux playing Sim City 3000, Railroad Tycoon, and Descent 3. I'm really looking forward to Creatures 3 and Neverwinter Nights. The only other game that I really really wish was available for linux is Counter Strike.
I won't buy Alpha Centauri. I played the demo and it sucks.
The biggest problem I have with Linux games (from Loki anyways) is they depend on SDL. SDL apps totally crash my system. I have five video cards in my workstation and if I launch an SDL app on anything but my primary display the system halts. I don't me X crashes and I don't mean X locks up, I mean the system freezes completely. SDL is really nice but so is my five monitor system; I have having to choose between them.
Ah yes, Konsole - for me this is the killer app for KDE. Honestly - I love the configurability and the tabbed sessions.
I have to say, though. I bought B&W for Windows because I bought into the hype. It was the worst game I've ever bought and the interface takes too much work. I do not think that having to wave my mouse around in circular motions or crawling across the ground (that annoying grab-movement) is very fun either.
Good, honest post, BUT, can I ask you a question? Can you name the type of software package that constantly brings in huge amounts of money and take up more shelf real-estate in computer/electronics stores than any other type of software?
I can:
Computer Games
That's serious business, IMHO.
Yet Another FPS and a Civilization clone. *yawn*
They should have released MindRover instead. The demo is a lot of fun, and I'll buy it the instant it comes out. But they can't very well get my money if they don't release the product, eh?
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
This is dangerously close to the too-good-to-be-true area. What's the deal with these guys? Are they selling at a loss, or pirates, or what?
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
IMHO you're wasting your time looking there. Linux games are like heavy metal CDs: you won't find anything decent in a retail store. Thank Yog for online shops!
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Personally, besides the fact that I was an impatient little player, I figured that I would get better performance from my Windows machine as a client, and I'll use my Linux box as a server.
1) Tribes2 is not old at all. This is a long-planned near-simultaneous release. The Windows version came out like a week ago.
2) What software is available for Linux? Well, there's WordPerfect Office 2000 and Oracle 8i, to name a couple of fairly heavy-duty apps. Also, IBM DB2 and ViaVoice. Then of course there are the thousands of 'minor' applications like Blender and the GIMP. True, none of those are the 'heavyweight' office automation package (I assume you mean MS Office), but they are some pretty major applications.
Another way of looking at this is that it would be better for Linux to have -some- high-visibility apps than none, even if they are a little older.
Interestingly enough, your anecdotal evidence is also meaningless, exactly because it is only anecdotal evidence. You show me ten people who've had the above problems with Windows, and I'll show you fifty who've had problems with Linux. It may not be the same set of problems, but problems are still problems.
Fund an independent study of the usability and stability of Windows vs Linux in a game-playing environment, and then come back with the results. Until then, nobody cares about your meaningless anecdotal evidence.
One person does not break a stereotype. If anything, you can be considered the exception that proves the rule. If I had a dime for everytime I've heard, "Why should I buy applications/drivers/games/distributions for linux? Linux is free, so everything for linux should be free," I'd be able to buy a nice car, paying cash upfront.
Like it or not, there are a lot of morons out there that don't get the whole concept of "paying people for stuff they make, so those people can feed themselves and their families". Don't believe me? Go do a web search for warez. Look at all those results! Look at the popularity of Napster, and the upsurge of Napster replacements (different product domain, same concept. And don't give me bullshit about "the artists aren't getting money anyway", since they get at least something when you buy a CD, compared to the nothing they get when you download an mp3). Get on an IRC network (your pick, it really doesn't matter), and lurk in the warez channels. Or even lurk in the legitimate channels. Look at usenet once in a while. In short, the stereotype exists for a reason, and while it may be unfair, it's not untrue.
How long do you suppose it will be before Loki takes the big plunge into in-house game development from scratch?
What they have accomplished (and the quality of the end product) is amazing -- I would just like to know from Loki themselves whether they plan on ever producing a game of their own. It seems to me that this would be the next logical step...
Suppose it is time for a patented Ask Loki question and answer session by Slashdot?
>If this game is successful,
Big if.
not really.
BilldaCat
>If this game is successful,
not really.Big if.
BilldaCat
I haven't had a single crash yet. I've been running T2 on a P3 500 with a *TNT* video card (yes, TNT without a number after it), without any problems. Yes, I had to tone down a lot of the graphics, but it still looks pretty damn cool (better than T1 graphics). And the gameplay is great, I love playing games of Hunters with like 15 people (and it doesn't lag to hell on me like you claim).
So, personally, I think you have some machine problems that need to be addressed if you can't even install the game correctly.
BilldaCat
I certainly hope that Tribes 2 plays better under Linux than it does under windows. I can't count the number of problems I've had with it, not to mention how many my friends have had. That's one piece of software I regret buying.
Supposedly, the packaging issue was that big cardboard boxes were expensive to ship. Instead, they are going to ship plastic "DVD" style cases, and this change took way longer than they expected. That's the story, anyway!
I got tired of waiting for the Linux version to appear so I bought the win version. The interface and gamestyle was so Civ II. I have played CivCTP for awhile now, and I love it. It was a huge step back. The graphics were hard to see and the gameplay was poor. I was very dissapointed. I wish Loki would pick better titles to port. Tribes II however sounds like an excellent bet.
Anyone play Imperium Galactica - reminded me of stars, although not as deep, I though the graphics/movies were cool. I would love to see that for linux.
Were are all the PC game titles? it seems to me that all the new games are console, and so few good titles are released for the PC. Most of them are rehashes of old engines with a new(ish) plot and no real new gameplay. What happened to inovative games?
Everyone is living in a personal delusion, just some are more delusional than others.
Wow, you just described me, except for the fact that I started using UNIX in '92, long after DOS was available...
:-)*
I don't have or use Windows, even at work. I've converted many people too, I was the first person in my current company to do it, and now the entire development team (and one guy in support) use it.
In my last job, I used NT, which I had to reboot everyday. Some Windows people will say things like, "It doesn't crash like that too often for me." I usually reply with, "Windows is largely incompatible with the way I use computers." I usually have at least 10 windows open (that includes Konsole, which, in one window, contains five or six terminal sessions), which I flip through constantly, which is why I put my taskbar in the upper left corner, each new entry goes below the last one. (It also has something to do with having "paper" proportioned windows) In Windows, I accelerate memory leaks by using it in this way.
I also use Linux for the same reason I bought a TI-85 in college: If it doesn't do something I want, I can make it do it someway or another.
As far as "getting things to work" goes, my favourite demonstration is grabbing a random network card ("hand me your NIC...") and plugging it into my laptop. No dialogs, no "Windows will install the driver for blah blah blah...reboot," just an audible beep and I can continue surfing. Many USB devices work the same way, too. Last week, I found a USB keyboard in our lab, plugged it in, and started typing. Again, no driver dialogs.
To be more on topic, I have bought Civ:CTP and Heroes 3. I'm thinking of buying SoF and will definitely buy Alpha Centauri. For Tribes, I'll have to see what it's like first.
Now I'd like to see Black and White for Linux. I'd definitely buy that, too.
(1) yeah, but tribes 2 is new.
This is one of the more amusing trolls i've seen in a while!
.. but still, there was some sort of primal guilt that I was powerless to overcome.
As I write this we can all be thankful that our servicemen are on their way home from China. But I have to admit that I felt a bit guilty booting into Linux, knowing that those innocent people were being held hostage, while at the same time I was using their captors' favorite OS without giving it a second thought. I know this is silly; "one thing has nothing to do with the other", as they say
Yeah, best watch out for that Kommie supported OS (even though the GPL doesn't apply to them, so they're not giving anything back to us that might infect us with their EVIL kommie disease.) What's that i see? You're breathing the same air they are! Holy crap, you're also using the same types of proteins in your cells! How can you call yourself a capitalist doing such things?
I keep telling myself that using Linux is not going to turn me into a leftist, but some irrational part of me (that part of the brain that invents monsters under the bed, no doubt) is working overtime to convince me otherwise.
Do you also thing homosexuality is contracted like a disease? "Gay men have bought this very same model of sofa before! RUN FOR YOUR HETROSEXUALITY AND ETERNAL SOUL!"
Anyway, i'll see you in Quebec!
-ben.c
Because I sometimes don't want to WAIT for it to be delivered, I want it NOW.
Now, if I can order online and download a full version, they I will be very happy.
One a side note, someone else mentioned that ebgames.com has just about all of the Loki games at $9.99 each. I just ordered about $100.00 worth of games. Sometime next week my kids are going to be ecstatic.
--
Charles E. Hill
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
There is at least game that does play better under Linux. I found that Terminus (http://www.vvisions.com/terminus/) ran better under Linux than WinXX. Despite applying the most recent patches, the Win32 version kept locking up on me.
--
"You've crossed my Line of Death!" "What? No! Where is it?" "Here in the fine print...."
Moral: The stereotype that everyone in the OSS world is a cheapskate, pirating hippy with delusions of godhood who won't buy games is flat-out wrong; a lie straight from the FUD mines of the Dark Lords of Redmond.
--
"You've crossed my Line of Death!" "What? No! Where is it?" "Here in the fine print...."
You're missing my point: the reason that stereotypes are considered bad is because they paint everyone in a group with a broad brush that only applies to some -- even to most -- in that group.
I provided a counterexample to the "prevailing wisdom" to demonstrate that it doesn't fairly represent the entire OSS world. Other posters in the thread did the same. Reread your response in that light, then ask yourself, "How can we change this impression and get more Linux games?"
But, I shouldn't be too hard on you. Plainly, most game makers are coming to the same conclusions. Aside from the pioneers like Loki, they don't seem to believe that they will make their investment back before the warez crowd floods the 'Net with pirated versions. This, despite the fact that the porting cost to a different platform can be much less than the original game development costs, especially if they made multi-platform part of their original design goals.
Again, how can we change this? The only way I know is to buy Linux games when they are released. I've done my part. How about the rest of you?
--
"You've crossed my Line of Death!" "What? No! Where is it?" "Here in the fine print...."
Well, I've got the first Tribes, and it's pretty good. I wasn't going to get Tribes 2 because my friend has it and it didn't impress me enough to spend 50 bucks on it. I think I'll buy the Loki port, though. It's a decent enough game, and if it helps their numbers, it could help future ports. Works for me. :-)
Now, if I could just find someone who carries them locally....
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I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.
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I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.
-- Dr. Seuss
according to this ac you're right. The port was done 8 months ago and it got caught up in packaging issues.
-------------------------------------------
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.
-------------------------------------------
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.
-- Dr. Seuss
Assuming I can find it at my local babbages (haven't been there in a while) or I get a credit card and order it from Loki :-)
-------------------------------------------
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.
-------------------------------------------
I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.
-- Dr. Seuss
Where do I find it on Microsoft's site? I searched microsoft.com for hours and all I could find was:
/ Li nuxMyths.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw
>If this game is successful,
Big if.
> and many people playtest the engine
Notice that its still being debugged after its released. People call it good for a beta.
>and submit bug reports and the folks at Tribes2 keep on top of it,
They seem to be doing so too. Every day seems like a new patch day.
> you might see a whole slew of mods that may rival Half-Life's in terms of quality, only this time on the Linux desktop.
Er... no. HalfLife is a strange creature. Alot of companies would die to have that sort of community support but they can't seem to replicate it. Look at Quake3. Its available for Linux and modable, but nothing that noteworthy which gets close to TFC/CS is out yet.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Completely right. I do all my work (sims etc.) on Unix and use excel occasionally on windows. Windows software just doesn't seem to like it when I try and import 1,000,000 points and do a histogram or just plot them. oh well. gnuplot rocks.
yeah, I setup an 8 machine beowulf yesterday running linux matlab, works great. I'll give applix a shot.
OT....
I bought the win32 version a couple weeks ago (I didn't know there was a Linux version on the way, else I might have waited). Like you, I found that it was difficult to see things. Then I found some alternative graphics on the CD that were designed for red-green colorblind people. I suffer some sort of colorblindness (not sure if it's the red-green type though), and installing the alternative graphics helped a lot in terms of playability.
-- $SIGNATURE
breaking need libraries and crashing? this reminds me of installing games in linux more than in windows.
opengl drivers are very often broken in linux causing boxes to go down. no shame on mesa, but on the hardwaremanufacturers, ati especially for not supporting linux enough.
and i see myself as pretty advanced in the field since ive tried many opengl-supported cards and used to program a little bit of opengl for linux. when a newbie tries to install his new quake/tribes/unreal-game, and the screen goes black and never comes back.. trust me, next time he'll buy that new hot game for windows instead.
and for breaking libraries, what libraries could be broken in windows? you must be running a strange version.
its mostly libraries in linux that gets broken, glibc X.X -fscked- my comp more than once.
thats why you never reinstall dx from the games ( they ask you, remember )..
just sticking to the latest DX has always worked fine for me.
Pc Gaming reason 1:
I already own a PC
PC gaming reason 2:
My PC has a mouse attatched.. Ever try to play quake2 with a joypad? Yuck!
PC gaming reason 3:
Network gaming.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
Ok, you get on your win box, I'll stay on my linux box, we'll play quake3 and see who does better ;-)
;-)
Come on, linux makes a great gaming OS, and with Xfree 4.x and more and more linux prts apearing, the last of the barriers towards more people gaming on Linux have fallen down.
Linux has been my gaming OS for over 4 years, btw. Voodoo 2 cards have been supported in Linux nearly forever.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
Wont be any binareis released.
treke
Fame is a vapor; popularity an accident; the only earthly certainty is oblivion.
12 month old crap? 2 week old crap in the case of Tribes 2
treke
Fame is a vapor; popularity an accident; the only earthly certainty is oblivion.
Alpha Centauri is a real oddity. It was completed at least 6 months ago, probably longer, but was delayed due to vague problems concerning packaging. Averaging them out isnt useful.
treke
Fame is a vapor; popularity an accident; the only earthly certainty is oblivion.
Unfortunately, nVidia will not release an open source (X11 license) driver for XFree86. Until then, only Linux x86 will be able to full use it. All of the BSD's and even Linux on other hardware platforms are out of luck. :(
This is all concerning the kernel driver they use to communicate with the card. Heck, they could have at least used XFree86's API for the hardware. This would have allowed all of the OS's on x86 to be supported.
I used to read this line about 15 years ago when describing MS-DOS. The primary gaming/desktop application machine of that day was a Mac. When I used to tell my colleagues of the power of the command line, and how I could get great color games for virtually nothing, they would all laugh and tell me what a "piece of crap" DOS was.
Amazing how the fortunes have changed, eh? Now the pompus bullshitters are the former DOS users who couldn't shake the MSGUI and are now trapped in it. The only ones who "get it" when it comes to what Linux is about are the folks who were lucky enough to work on U*IX boxes at work or in graduate schools... and those of us who used MS-DOS and bailed from the MSFT camp due to the high overhead.
Linux is what DOS could have been.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
I loved the beta, but at the moment you practically need a geforce 2 mx or higher to play it in Linux. Windows has similar high ass requirements. It's lots of fun though, so, I blew about 600 dollars on upgrading my shit to play it. It's worth every penny :)
Check out ioquake3.org for a great, free, First-Person Shooter engine!
Hell yes ima buyin it, have the beta, and it fucking rocks. Of course I'm some freak hard core gamer by most peoples opinions but, Linux rocks, and I'd toss away all this computer equipment if it went away for whatever reason. Life just ain't the same without an operations system that can boast longer uptimes than some peoples (short) lives. It ain't gonna be run everywhere until we get desktop. We don't get desktop unless we get killer apps. Games are close, maybe not killer, and not exclusive, but they will get users. That's the plan anyway...
Check out ioquake3.org for a great, free, First-Person Shooter engine!
It's not so much video-card, as GL implementation. nvidia crap has real opengl, and the mesa drivers just aren't as optimized yet. They will be though, someday.
Check out ioquake3.org for a great, free, First-Person Shooter engine!
The G400MAX will need the latest version of X (whenever it comes out with the latest DRI code merged), or you can just get cvs of DRI and learn how to code to fix it yourself :)
I wussed out and bought an nvidia card
Check out ioquake3.org for a great, free, First-Person Shooter engine!
You are a complete moron to think that BSD is any different from linux in any non-trivial way. If linux being overrun by uncool people is enough for you to switch to an operating system that behaves almost 100% exactly like linux then you are a complete bafoon.
Oh, and most BSD's dont use the mach kernel. I can only think of one major one that does, and I hesitate to even call it bsd. That one is MacOSX.
Hardcore gamers are usually hardware fanatics with the latest and fastest gear. If Linux doesn't have the drivers to support it, not using Windows isn't a choice.
Tribes 2 was out 2 weeks ago. Not Loki. Learn to read.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Actually, 2 Loki games are kind of "hybrid". I installed Unreal Tournament: Game of the Year edition on Tuesday, and what I had to do was buy the windows game, and then download the installer from Loki with the Linux binary and libraries. Pretty kewl. Works beautifully. In fact I only hopped on slashdot for a sec. I logged on to play UT :) Loki also has instructions for how to install Quake 3 Arena if you have the windows version (They'd rather that you buy theirs, but it's nice that they realize that ppl don't want to buy games twice.) Plus, remember that id is releasing Doom 3 for Win, Mac, and Linux at the same time.
At Draeker's keynote at the CLIQ a couple of weeks back, he said they were seeing much better frame rates (between 2x and 4x) than you'd see on the Windows versions of the same games. He also said that gcc put out code that was 15-20% less well optimized/slower than the Windows compilers did, but that the other advantages of the Linux OS more than made up for that.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Tribes 2 just came out for the first time on any platform one week ago. That's not very old.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
OpenGL can't assure multiplay. Games don't pass polygons to each other during play, they send data about actions and unit positions. How different platforms render that data on screen is irrelevant, as long as the results are consistent.
For compatible play you need a compatible API such as OpenPlay or SDL_Net (personally, I'd like to see those two efforts merge in some way).
What network multiplay API did Loki use? Are their games compatible with either DirectPlay (Win) or NetSprockets (Mac)?
Tribes 2 has been out for about a week.
If you were thinking about going out and just getting Tribes 2 for Linux, you may want to think again. I've been on the beta cycle for it, and have lost countless hours doing nothing more than sitting in front of my computer playing it. Infact, I would say that unless you're absolutely sure you won't mind being seriously addicted to a game for the next dozen months, you should think again.
There are lots of good reviews about Tribes 2 (for Microsoft and Linux alike), so I won't touch on the game here (go read them!)
Seriously, the only thing that is a draw back in this game is the hardware needed to play it (it's just as bad - if not worse - on Microsoft). But if you've been looking for an excuse or good time to upgrade your system (3D card specifically), this is definately it.
We are working very closely with Dynamix to keep the Linux version current with the Windows version. Even now, we have the 22228 build ready to be released, we're just waiting on Sierra to approve the Windows version of the patch.
- The beta testers are current and will remain current.
- Dynamix's co-located servers run the Linux version of the server.
- Right now Dynamix is working to make sure the voice over IP works across platforms
All in all, there are lots of good signs that this game will be on par with the Windows version for a long time.
--Sam
3)Get some bloody normal people to use the OS. Just now its all Bearded GNU types and warezing kiddies, at least when it is being used in the home. Linux is a business OS, not a home OS. Normal people=market.
Here we've got the chicken and the egg problem. You need to get people to use the OS to get companies to make apps/games, but you need apps/games to get people to use the OS. Loki's really sticking their neck out (I would think - don't really know what sales are like) by selling Linux versions of games that are already available on Windows. Nevertheless, it's a good thing they are, because if Tribes2 sells well other companies will start to look at Linux as a potential platform as well.
I'd definetly consider buying Tribes2 for Linux - if I could get it at Electronics Boutique, so I could return it in the event that it doesn't work on my machine. euroderf's right on the DirectX thing. I've only tried installing demos on Linux because the risk of going out and buying it is too great at the moment.
It alkso needs new games, not 12 month old crap like what is being touted here.
Didn't Tribes2 just come out like a week or two ago? I think Loki's done a pretty good job on that one! Alpha Centauri may be a different story, but I choose to look at it as glass-half-full.
hoser: Slashdot reader since 1987.
These two games are examples of how I would like Linux gaming to work, though.
------
Well... I would have things to say about that, but I have vowed not to attack my competitors in public. :)
------
Now, what I would really like to be able to do is buy a hybrid game. I would pay extra for a game which I could run on both platforms.
Unfortunately, Loki is not able to provide this as the original game developer does not want to have to compete with their own game. So, Loki has to provide a Linux-only port, if they provide a separate product. And they have to provide a separate product, because otherwise there is no way to know how many people are playing the Linux version, and thus how much Loki should be paid.
Ideally, the original game developers would do the port. In order for this to be realistic, however, we need to set up an environment where porting a game requires no more than a re-compile. Unfortunately, Microsoft has made this very hard (intentionally or not) with their Win32 and DirectX API's, which can't reasonably be supported on other platforms.
What we need is a complete OS abstraction layer on which people can build platform independent software. There have been many efforts to do this (SDL, etc.), but these have mostly been fairly specialized, which means you usually need several different libraries to wrap all of the OS-specific functionality you use. Chances are that each library will have different supported platforms and other conflicting requirements. Sorting these out can be just as much of a pain as manually porting your code.
It's unfortunate that C and C++ don't have a standard API comparable to Java's. Not that I like Java, but...
Uhh... what were we talking about again?
------
I don't know about Tribes2, but Alpha Centauri has been out for a WHILE. It was fun, but not as fun as Civ2 used to be either IMO.
"I suspect I will be flamed and modded down
for this, but it is the truth. Deal with it."
You are very arrogent. You preach your personal opinion as if it was some high and mighty truth. You must think you are so profound.
Share your opinion, please.
Speak your mind.
But please, stuff the attitude.
Alpha Centauri is well over 2 years old. If you average them out, it's about twelve months.
Hmm...well if its inexpensive enough I *may* pick up Alpha Centauri. Tribes 2 is right out cause I run linux on an old Dell laptop. But Alpha Centauri might be a cool game to play on a plane ride. We'll see! :)
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Thanks. Sorry you're post got modded down as a Troll. That was pretty lame.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
But I'm kind of wondering how many of these people will actually buy the Linux version of these games? It seems like everyone wants someone else to buy the games. Even though I really want to see Linux succeed as a gaming platform, I seriously doubt I'll buy either of these. Usually if I want to play a game, I'll hop on my Windows box. In my experience, its been much easier to get something to work on my Windows box than on a Linux box.
I know that Linux is in a Catch 22 where games won't succeed until people buy them, but no one will buy them until lots of games come out. I wish I could say that I would buy one of these ports to support Loki. But honestly, I know I won't. And I'm pretty sure few Slashdot readers will. I just hope that in a few years, I'll be able to change my stance and say that getting a game to work on my Linux box is just as easy as my PC.
Anyone else feel the same way?
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
1. It must be a game that I am interested in already. I'm not going to buy Railroad Tycoon, just because it's on Linux.
2. I must come out before I buy it for Windows. I will not pay twice for the same game, and I will not wait indefinately for a Linux port.
However, Tribes 2 meets BOTH of those criteria, and so I will buy it this weekend. Hooray for Loki! May there be many more Linux games for me to buy.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
The rise in Linux gaming should mirror the rise in Linux usage. If we try to rush this process, we may end up causing Linux gaming even more harm, because, as they say, once bitten twice shy. Gaming companies will be less likely to port if they launch a major release expecting the same kinds of figures as Tribes 2, and don't get it.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
The apps are already there, the usability and compatibility (which does turn out to be a chicken and egg driver issue) is the real problem.
"A good conspiracy is an unprovable one." -Conspiracy Theory
Same thing was said about QIII...
Jeremy
windows games rarely need (debug) patches afterwards
... and they allways work as predicted
Yea... Windows games never need patches, what version is Half-Life up to now? Ohhh 1.1.0.6. Yea, and Tribes 2, not two weeks after release for the Windows version? It goes from 21570 to 22002 thanks to this patch. SDL is a lot faster then Directx and takes away any multi-distro fears. Meanwhile Directx is slow and bloated, OpenGL is a lot faster. Yet its not used as much, why? Because to get that little Windows stamp it has to use Directx.
[Linux (SDL)] API`s are not as straightforward in use as DX is
Do you program in either? If you programmed in SDL you'd know that it works as promised, which is very well.
Open Source, Open Standards, Open Minds
First off, I won't "do windows" strictly because of my belief system -- I can't support a company that has cheated, broken the law, yada, yada, yada (you've heard it all, right?)
I think Quake3 and MythII work great on my Debian box...wasn't that hard to install.
I, for one, am going to stop by fryes in LA in a couple weeks and buy TWO Loki Linux games. At the bottom end, they're $25.00!! How much is programming freedom worth to you?
Being proactive for Linux is very important right now. I donate to FSF and EFF as well.
If you don't use or like Linux, don't buy the games. But if you're a crazy programmer, or think Linux is pretty cool, help Loki and Linux provide a real alternative to Windows -- buy Linux!!
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
While I notice this is a troll, I'd suggest at least a bit of orginality in the argument department next time. Cliches are effective in trolling, but honestly, a bit of orginality does not hurt anyone.
Everyone who makes generalizations should be shot.
Yep, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.
"Faith strikes me as intellectual laziness." -Robert A. Heinlen
Buy it. Seriously. Even if it isn't stocked at your local CompUSA. That is assuming you want more games to come to linux...
-Brian
"Faith strikes me as intellectual laziness." -Robert A. Heinlen
The market has chosen DirectX? Surely you are kidding. It is certainly true that most game developers have chosen DirectX but the consumers do not care. The majority of consumers could not tell you the difference between DirectX and OpenGL. Most video cards have good OpenGL support. Did anyone complain that Baldur's Gate 2 was written to OpenGL instead of DirectX? No. Near as I can tell, nobody cared.
Does Linux need DirectX support? No, clearly not. It may help matters (and certainly would for gaming) but come on.
--
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
The average consumer doesn't. Provided the game still works, provided the graphics still look as nice and the sound still sounds as nice.
Claiming that the market has chosen DirectX is silly. Certainly it is true that DirectX has won the hearts of (most) developers, I'll grant that. And for what it is worth, that is a far more important battle.
--
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
Linux performance is about equal to windows on just about everyone's account.
it's just that people are used to playing games on windows because there aren't enough linux games, and there aren't enough linux games because people are used to playing games on windows.
________
This is a big deal for linux gaming. This time you have to either commit to buying the linux version, or stick to playing on windows only. (To help with the choice, the Linux version is reported to run BETTER than the win version by the people who tested it and have played both.)
If Tribes 2 fails on Linux (and there's a fair chance it may) we may have missed the last effort of this level to bring Blockbuster games to our OS at the same time as win players, and the ONLY way to make sure companies have a reason to release Linux games is to back up our talk with our cash. We've all said that Linux has a market that game developers shouldn't ignore, but this is the point where we need to put up or shut up, because the free ride is over, and each of us has to make a choice, the results of which will impact every future title.
If you can't tell, I'm afraid of what the future of big-name gaming on Linux will be unless companies stop losing money on ports.
oh, and please check out the linux tribes website too...
________
I was on the Beta team for the Linux version of Tribes2 and it is a fantastic game. Hats off to Loki for a wonderfull job. Everything that works under the Windows version works under Linux. However, be warned that it will only really works with nvidia cards and nvidia closed drivers. Anybody with a GeForce 256 and above should be able to play the game on 400mhz and above machine. If you have a 3dfx card, you will find it a lot of trouble to play the game. Those with radeons should get the latest dri source from cvs. The developer of dri (Gareth Hughes) was on the beta team and has been working to get dri working with Tribes2. And support Loki, they are doing wonderfull things.
We try and keep it on-topic (for instance here it is), and we dont spam-flood these forums. But we know it DOES attract visitors. And while we restrict ourselves to JUST selling Linux games we are in a very competetive low margin business. We need all the visitors we can get. Its how we eat in the evenings and how wages get paid.
I appreciate what you are saying, however. Rest asured you will not see us posting to off-topic forums or posting big spammy messages.
And as to banner ads, slashdot charges a LOT for its banner ads and we all know how ineffective banners are these days. No thanks. We have been TRYING to go with other ad models with slashdot, but they have decided to ONLY do banner ads. They finally confirmed that decision to us on the day slashdot had a big story about how banner ads just didnt work. Go figure.
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.
The games can be ordered from Tux Games (Alpha Centauri and Tribes 2). We are also selling the discount bundle.
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.
The problem is X-windows just isn't mature enough for the home market. It's only been around what, 15 years? Get cut and paste across different programs, get click and drag, get better graphical performance, and maybe we'd have something.
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Glad that I haven't bought Tribes 2 yet. Anybody know if there will be cross-compatable binaries availible a la Quake3? Even if not, doesn't matter, I just found a new source of computer crack 8*)
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
Aimed at political leftists?
Sure, I see the connection... its open source, and somehow if one thinks hard enough they can conjure up a relation to socialism, which obviously to us right-wingers-living-in-our-bomb-shelters might as well be communism spelled differently.
Well, I'm pretty far to the right... and I love Linux. Most of my friends are right-wing too... they also "get it" when it comes to Linux. I like Linux for the same reasons you do... it does what its told and doesn't fuck up every third time like certain other OSes. We evil right-wing capitalists lose a shitload of money when our servers don't run... so we like things that don't crash. We also don't like spending more money when a better solution requires spending less money.
No heavyweight applications?
As for heavyweight applications, well, Linux has plenty. How about Apache? (60% of the Web). Oracle? DB2? First-tier Java support? (I personally love this one, as its saved/made my company hundreds of thousands of dollars.)
Desktop apps, you say?....WordPerfect, CorelDraw, Gimp, KOffice, and StarOffice, Gnumeric, GNUCash... and more little utility apps (Napster clones, MP3 players, FTP clients, Clock applets, Solitaire/Minesweeper games, and NetLoad meters than a big horse can shit.
The only apps I need to make me never even want to look at a Windows box again are CounterStrike and a Mozilla 1.0 based Galeon. I'll put my Mom on it once we get to the point where all desktop-oriented tasks (including software installation/management and hardware configuration) can be done without using a shell. (And Ximian seems to be making some VERY NICE progress on both these fronts).
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I could have sworn I'd seen HL mods on linux already. What's different about this?
--
ALL YOUR KARMA ARE BELONG TO US
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
This being Slashdot, I smell conspiracy! Microsoft is behind these ports. Seems unlikely...let me explain...
Deep in college campuses and cheap apartments across the country, programmers are working long into the night to get more and more advanced versions of Linux out. Undeterred by lack of support and Micro$oft FUD, nothing can stop them. Thta is until, they get a copy of Alpha Centauri...three months later, they are stil working far into the night, but this time it is to get enough artilerry together to biseige that one enemy coastal city...and hacking ther kernel is left far behind.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
The "real" support for high performance gamers is OpenGL. Stuff like smoke / dynamic lighting are a hundred times faster in OpenGL than DirectX on my GeForce2.
More data, damnit!
There's already SDL, which has been getting some nice, positive feedback as a good, cross-platform multimedia API. Note that Win32 is one of those platforms. Oh, and the API has nothing to do with the install. If you've ever tried a Loki game installation, they're really smooth and easy. Unreal Tournament installed just fine on my system.
3)Get some bloody normal people to use the OS.
And one of the best ways to lure users is to get some games for it. Loki porting some Windows games to Linux is a step in that direction. Face it, the general public is not even going to consider Linux as their OS until there's a good selection of games for it.
It alkso needs new games, not 12 month old crap like what is being touted here.
Neither game is crap, and only one of them is as old as you say. Tribes 2 has only been out for Windows for what, 1-2 weeks, tops?
Here, here. I feel like a moron for buying this game early. I guess for one brief moment, I insanely trusted a game company to actually release a worthy sequel. I have hard-freezes on my box, whenever entering the level, using OpenGL or Direct3D. AND I do have a GeForce 2 card. If Tribes 2: Linux uses even remotely the same code base, I wouldn't dare touch my penguin box with that game. Oh well. Time to go back to playing Black and White and the original Tribes (HaVoC!)...
Where's the submit button??
Novel thought, paying for games.
C-out
- Sighuh?
Ports to a different cpu type are always harder, even for a game thats just a high level language. Tribes2 uses some ASM for floating point optimazation that no compiler can do now (SSE2 stuff is included) Porting asm is a bitch, porting asm to a different cpu is more of a bitch.
I always prefer to start the year off with a bang - or, to be more precise, a series of loud hums, a crackle or two, and
One of my friends has been waiting on Alpha Centauri on Linux since they announced it. What was the holdup? I heard some rumor that the game was actually finished but it was held up because of package design issues or some junk like that. Anybody have any better idea? At least with Daikatana there was a whole new game to design terribly.
hehe, I never said no games ever needed patches on windows. Playing Unreal, I know I was making a moot point that would be critized. Lately, games can 'depend' on the net if something needs to be updated, but in the previous everything-windows era, they either worked or didn`t make it at all. This has changed into: let`s build a society around a working beta run from there. In fact this makes window and linux not that much different, but a large portion of the wingame industry is still centered around that "perfect product" idea.
OpenGL isn`t used as much (and that`s really a statent from the past) because A) it wasn`t an orginal windows technology, so it needed time to proove itself, and B) because it wasn`t all that full-featured and hardware specific as it is today. DX still has that (very small) advantage because it`s IN the OS, not on top of it, but technology-wise, I`d choose OpenGL any-day now. I`ve never used used SDL before, but looking at the trackrecord and the API reference it looks like a simple but portable lib. I don`t know if comparing is all that sensible though. DX simply does much more than SDL. E.g. how would you port a D3D game to linux ? Maybe I missed that but something comparable isn`t in the spec.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
You probably mean Metal Gear Solid I, which originally was a console game on the Playstation I. Konami's Metal Gear Solid 2 is just about to arrive on PS2 this fall, and I don't think Kojima will allow any pc-port to happen anytime soon.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Are you really going to expect me to believe that DirectX always does what is expected, and that SDL/OpenGL frequently do not?
To be honest I don't have that much experience with SDL but I know openGL can, or was rather, a pain in the neck to get the same output on every machine. This has improved. From my brief surfing, SDL looks like a basic mm-extended glut layer that is portable. I don't doubt linux as a server OS, but on a graphics level I do have my reservations, from experience. I'm not a linux guru though..
[++dists==conformity risks] This is a huge FUD argument, and I'm dissapointed you felt it necessary to resort to it.
FUD argument or not, it's gonna be used to linux-games's disadvantage, and people are going to go along with it. If linux grows into a mainstream OS, home-users are going to want a certain level of conformity. The fact that there are more distributions means companies need to put extra work testing and ironing, and that's not a plus, regardless of the argument being FUD or not. Oh and I know: MS puts out more "distributions" than anyone could ever asked for. But the interface hasn't really changed in years.
This is a joke, right? I'm not sure if I should argue, or just laugh. Anyway, since my roomate is a heavy player of Win games, I know for a fact that this is BS. And having seen the number of patches released because of problems with DirectX, I conclude your earlier point about DX always "doing what it is supposed to" is also BS.
I really don't play that many DX games since my pc can't run most of them swiftly, but my code runs as expected on most pc's. That's all I can say. Looking at the SDL and knowing openGL, I admitt that I didn't have a point saying that. Agreed.
I still think people easily diss on DX, while it's a good API and offers game companies the dreamed stable platform for developping games. I like openGL better myself, but that's just a matter of taste, and in some cases, shortcomings/additional features supported in either or both. Actually, comparing SDL to DX is BS. DX does a lot more/is a lot more complex than SDL, and you can see the good an bad of that. Surely DX raises issues and problems that SDL doesn't and vice versa. When I was talking about API's, I meant linux API's in general, and more specifically the X-Protocol. I didn't even know SDL existed untill the thread mentioned it. Now that I know what it is, I realise I regret having made claims about [it] as the 2 can't really be compared fully.
I support linux gaming. In fact there is a reason to believe linux gaming still has a future. Clearly X-Box is MS's way out to untangle Windows&Apps from it's copy-crazy gaming community, while still maintaining some sort of 'backward compatibility'. If MS intends to shut down gaming on windows, Linux gaming has a future.
cheers,
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Even if the parent`s attitude sucks, he`s still right on the directX AND market issue. It might not be very insightfull or anything, but he`s right. DirectX is only parallelled by expensive proprietry SDK`s for e.g. PS2, so the gaming industry embraces free API`s like DX easily. Allthough linux is "open", the API`s are not as straightforward in use as DX is (im not talking performance or design here), and they allways work as predicted. The large number of Linux distributions confuses and potentially compromise compatibility. DX supports most, if not all, top of the bill hardware, whereas Linux hw-drivers will usually lag a little. The potential user base is much larger, and unlike linux software, windows games rarely need (debug) patches afterwards, free or not.
You may not like what is, but that`s not a reason to kill a man`s opinion.
The nature of the linux crowd simply is a bit difficult to target by game companies, because they don`t know if they need to play the good guy`s with the sensible OS approach (VERY small market), or the pinguin braindeads that fly up whenever somebody insults a word ending on ux (substantially bigger, but still small, market).
Piece.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
It`s acually very simple:
.NET vision.
Forget products
Forget distributions
Forget boxed games on the shelves
This is what will happen:
You donwload the installer of your favourite game, install the thing on your fancy OS of choice, start it up, enter your VISA/Mastercard number, and wait a few seconds for the game to contact servers. Once the necessay stuff is donwloaded, you can play. When you`re done, the game erases everything except savegames.
This will work, but only when net congestion ramps down and everybody can say broadband 5 times in a sentence. Essentially it`s SUNs EJB or MSs
There is just no way people are going to survive on freeware, shareware, or a business model that sells products in the strores to a market that doesn`t really want to buy. See red-hat, breaking even, fnially charging money for it`s agent service. That stuff works, but only because they target the right people (companies) in the right way (easy & clean).
With great power comes great electricity bills.
It's a pity that for international shipping they will charge 35$ (for a 10$ games is a bargain!). Anyone know a similar europeans reseller?
not sure if any of you know this, but the source code to the Tribes 2 engine (called the V12 engine) will be available from http://www.garagegames.com for $100. They were going to make it free, but legal fees made them charge $100. It won't include any tribes 2 related stuff though (ie, artwork). more information about the engine can be found here: http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=te chnology&page=home
1)Get DirectX support. I'm sorry, but the whole of the gaming worl uses it. If you don't support it, you are stuffed. Even consoles are getting it, like the XBox. Games that don't use it, such as WuakeIII, are very dificult to install.
Eh? What are you talking about, man? Quake III is no harder to install than your run of the mill DirectX game. Besides, what has the graphics API got to do with the installation process? You troll.
Oh and by the way, systems like the PS2 seem to be doing pretty well even though they don't use DirectX...
What about the Mac? I couldn't get Tribes2 for the Mac if I sacrificed my first-born. Not to mention the fact that the Mac has a larger installed base, and much more clout has a gaming platform. I'm not knocking Linux, but simply saying let's games for all platforms.
-------------------------------------------------
I agree with you to an extent. I don't believe DirectX is needed. In fact, I believe a DirectX for Linux would hinder rather than help Linux gaming. Do to the great variety of flavors of Linux and system configurations out there, I doubt that a closed product would work as well as an open product like SDL. As more and more developers see the value of portability, fewer will see the value of DirectX. Look at Tribes 2 for instance. The Windows development team used NASM for their assembly at the request of Loki. They cared about portability, and it worked out for them. But you are right without a shadow of a doubt on point number 2. Linux users have been spoiled by the generosity of Mr. Carmack and others that have followed his example. But the simple fact of the matter is that not every company will release source to all their games. If you want continued Linux ports of new games, you will have to shell out some cash. Loki and companies like them are the only way to get quality games fast, and paying for those games is the only way to keep companies like Loke afloat. If you warez Linux games, you are only preventing yourself and others from getting more games for Linux. By the way, Tribes 2 is not 12 month old crap, it is a new game that everyone who paid attention knew was going to be ported almost from the very beginning. SMAC may be old, but it is not crap.
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Er ... D3D != DirectX.
Baldur's Gate 2 (and other OpenGL games) still use DirectX for such *unimportant" things as sound, input, and sometimes networking. People seem to forget that sometimes...
~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
Martee
All their demos are belong 2 you. Including tribes 2!!!
his is great.. If anyone is in doubt about the quality of loki's software, I suggest you go to their site and download their demo software. You will see just how great their games are. I like some of their ports BETTER than the original windows version.
"just connect this to..."
BZZT.
Liberty.
Welcome to the world of dynamic gaming updates. Players of EQ and AC have become accustomed to the process of regular, automated patching and authentication...I don't think it's so wrong to use a similar approach in games like Tribes 2. There have been several patches since release, and the game has improved with each one.
If you had been a bit more thorough in your troubleshooting, you would've found hundreds of tips for Voodoo users at places like tribalwar.com. You also would've realized that all of the problems you encountered on the day the game was released were fully explained either at the Sierra site or in the auto-patcher's news blurb.
I admit it would've been nice to receive a flawless version out-of-the-box. It's much better now though, and the game is fun, especially if you gather some friends and play on the same team.
KP
that's a joke right?
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
Are you going to at least tell us what other cards you have in that lab?
I've gotten all of the following to work at home or work:
Matrox G400 Max
Intel i810
Voodoo 3
Voodoo 5
ATI Rage 128
ATI Radeon
nVidia GeForce2 MX (though both a TNT2 and GeForce2 GTS locked up my machine)
ATI Rage Pro
I've never understood why so many people complain about how hard it is to set up 3D acceleration under Linux.
Ranessin
Sorry to hear you've had so many problems...
First, the V3 is supported under the DRI and under 3.3.6 (using Glide). The two S3 chipsets supposedly have acceleration under utah-glx, but I can't speak about it's stability or speed (though I'm doubtful that they really exist). The intel I740 is supported under utah-glx, as is the Rage Pro. The Rage 128 (if it's AGP) is *very* well supported under the DRI, giving better performance under Linux in many situations, than under Windows.
Of course, if you read the newsgroups/irc you will see lots of "It doesn't work for me!" posts. Why? Because people it works for don't usually come on and post "It works great for me!" Check out the Loki newsgroups. You'll find a lot of people who have 3D acceleration working great.
Finally, have you ever once e-mailed the developers of the drivers and told them your problems? I've been subscribed to the dri-devel mailing list for well over a year and have seen hundreds of people e-mail with problems only to have most of the solved in a very timely manner.
And why bother when I have yet to see any of my games consoles to crash?
Because game consoles cost so much more... Why buy a game console (which can't play Q3A, or UT) when I have a computer sitting on my desk capable of playing some great games?
Ranessin
"Games that don't use it, such as WuakeIII, are very dificult to install."
Wooaaah. If you think Quake3 is difficult to install, you shouldn't be anywhere near a computer, never mind boldly pretending to make technical arguments on technical issues in a discussion group. Holy shit. I suggest you find a job that doesn't involve computers at all. Shame.
Patch 1.452 changes:
- Effectiveness of Big Gun 21 increased by 25%
- Players can no longer do something odd the developers didn't intend
- etc,etc
So, even if the current game is stable, will I have to worry about getting kicked out of network games every few months for a week or two while Loki catches up?
Not to mention I saw Tribes for $29.99 at Circuit City yesterday, though I suppose an extra $20 won't break my bank if it means I won't have to reboot.
To install my video drivers, (nvidia under debian), I had to download two files, untar them, and run a "make install".
Then, after it didn't work, I had to fix a symbolic link where the installation still had the OpenGL .so still pointing to the XFree4.0 default.
So, while Linux installations have gotten to the point where more and more people can install them without lots of unix knowledge, there are whole new challenges to face the first time you need to run an OpenGL app until Linux.
Forgot to mention... I'm not affiliated with EBgames.com. I'm just thrilled to be able to play these games in Linux without having to reboot -- I owned the Windows versions already. I just never thought it was worth it to buy the Linux versions as well -- until this deal.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
I got Descent 3, Heretic II, Soldier of Fortune, Quake III Arena, Heavy Gear II and Heroes of Might and Magic III this week (six games) for less than $70.00 after shipping!
And they were fast to ship, too!
Long live Loki and Loki games! They're identical to the Windows versions on my GeForce2 under XFree86 4.0.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Quake III may be no harder to install than the Windows client, but getting it to run is a headache beyond proportions.
On my Mandrake 7.2-based system, I could not get Quake III to run AT ALL. As soon as it would start up, it would segfault. This is on an AMD K6/2 500 with a 16MB Voodoo Banshee that worked perfectly fine on a Windows machine. Tracing the problem back further, I discovered that it needed DRI to run, and bus-mastering had to be enabled for DRI to work. I tried using the bus-mastering enable script over at dri.sourceforge.net.
Guess what?
It didn't do a thing.
I don't want this kind of bullshit on linux. I should not have to enable bus-mastering just to get a single damned game to work. Hell, I shouldn't even have to screw with Mesa. I should be able to double click on the icon AND HAVE IT LAUNCH AND RUN PROPERLY.
That's very true. I usually get the best advice for free -- from my friends.
Which is why we can look forward to NEVER having a linux version of Halo, inspite of how "independent" Bungie thinks they still are after being bought out by M$. Dickwads.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
I know the X-box will get it first. I also know that there will never be a linux version, ESPECIALLY now.
The X-box will have it and then the WindozeXP will get it. After that, a LOOOONG delay before the Mac may get a port. Never will linux get one.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
I agree with what you said.
However, I'd like to add that I don't think Windows can even be compared to a Dreamcast or Playstation. People buy console systems to play games. People don't buy Windows to play games. Rather, a lot of people have Windows, and so there is a market for games. It's much like what you said about Linux and games. You happen to be using Linux, so now you are a potential market.
Remember back in the DOS days when Windows started getting popular? No developer wanted to switch to making Windows games. In fact, DOS games continued to be made, despite Win95 being the default OS everywhere. Eventually developers gave in, and Micrsoft helped them along with DirectX. This is not comparable to a Dreamcast. This is called "following the market".
Windows is not a gaming platform. It just happens to have many games available for it. I highly doubt any of the current crop of game developers are really much in love with Windows development.
-Justin
I really hate the poor resolution on TV's, and for that reason I prefer the way games look on the computer. The size doesn't bother me that much- I would rather look at 1280X1024 on a 19" screen than look at 525Xwhatever on a 29" TV. And sorry, I can't afford to charge $3k+ for an HDTV, and even if I could I don't know if any consoles support them at their highest resolutions (which btw are still lower than the highest resolutions of a good monitor).
Other than this, I have also noticed that very few game ship anymore without major bugs/play balance problems. These are usually fixed in a few months with a patch, and I can't see how you can apply a patch to any game consoles useing existing technology (x-box will be different with it's hard drive).
I love going down to the elementary school, watching all the kids jump and shout, but they dont know I'm using blanks.
You can get a developer's license of the engine for cheap ($100 and some publishing restrictions)
If this game is successful, and many people playtest the engine and submit bug reports and the folks at Tribes2 keep on top of it, you might see a whole slew of mods that may rival Half-Life's in terms of quality, only this time on the Linux desktop. It'll be a real shot in the arm for linux game development to have this stuff available at large, if it catches on.
There are some publishing restrictions on the license that you'll probably want to check out if you think this is the way you want to go, but if it'll bring over any programmers from the Windows ballpark, or at least prepare Windows game programmers to work with a game engine that has success on the Linux platform, that increases the chance that we'll get more and better games.
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Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
And secondly, I think we should stop caring about what is good for Linux' marketing future. I, frankly, don't give a rat's behind about the optimum way to spin it for maxumum palatability. Free (as in beer) is right by it's own virtue, regardless of it's marketroid virtues.
But I understand the point your trying to make. I just disagree.
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
Loki is trying to get away from that. If there would have been a cross compatible binary the same that that happen with Quake 3 would have happen with Tribes 2. When I got Quake 3 for Windows I knew that I could get the binaries later for Linux. So when you have people just like me that started to think like that...It isn't pretty. I when out and got the Linux version later because I'm always in Linux 98% of the time compare to Windows as it is. Hell I figure if a Mac user could wait then we can too. It's good to see that you waited for the game just like I did man, but if I was you I would cross compatible binaries of your wish list when it when it comes to Linux gaming for the time being. It's just not going to work...
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
And from all us niggaz... fuck you too. If you ask me now that's love.
=P
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
All I can say is look into SDL. It's what Loki use for there games. Go to there web site for more info.
www.lokigames.com
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
Like what ? What constraints ?
Theonly constraints are time and gradual acceptance of game companies. It will take time, it will happen.
www.neverwinternights.com
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
Descent3
Myth2
Alpha Centauri (next week)
Civ:CTP
These are older games, but they're great. I'm particularly addicted to Myth2. Tribes2 coming out with the Win32 release is a great step and neverwinter nights coming out for both platforms (and mac) ois great too.
I for one am happy not to hafta reboot to play games. The new games will happen, it will just take time and sales figures.
I must strongly disagree with you about "To promote Linux as a gaming platform is to promote it as a "toy OS."" While I couldnt care less how it compares to Winlimp in the market place I love the fact that people are porting (and writing) games to it. It's nice to FINALLY HAVE A STABLE PLATFORM FROM WHICH TO GAME...
I'm happy about it - Go Loki!
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
Thank heavens the sane world believes in OpenGL . . . I've experienced more DirectX crashes in one hour playing Diablo2 than I've expereineced in OpenGL in 3 years . . .
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
You have no business playing Quake3 on a 16 Meg banshee. That's pretty laughable hehe.
Dont blame your woes on linux - your card was written specifically to run in Windows and is how old now?
Too funny - I'm sorry you had such a rough time of it. Why would anybody in the Linux dev market worry about writing drivers for a 2 year old card?
It should be noted also that video performance has nothing to do with linux distribution or level. Either the drivers for your card work or they do not, it doesnt matter whether the distro is a 7.2 or 6.0 level. The distros are essentially hardware agnostic.
So if anyone is reading this dont get the wrong impression - this isnt windows so updating your os to the latest and greatest rev isnt going to fix anything. Either the drivers for your (in this case shitty or at least very old (I have a voodoo2 buried in my server)) card work or they don't. And where is 3dfx now anyway ? Hmm - try using a card who's manufacturer still exists to support their product.
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
Yes - Gnuplot DOES indeed rock. So does Matlab for Linux.
Also, I made it through engineering school with Applixware and it never failed me and never crashed, not even once, no matter how much data I stuffed into its spreadsheet. Check it out someday. Well worth the $39 asking price.
Sorry for the OT post.
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
It should be noted here that windows is essentially irrelevant in the upper bounds of the workstation market where sheer horsepower and memory are everything.
I do engineering sims for a living - the engineering world of massive simulation and calculation is owned by Unix and Linx, so it is definately NOT a toy OS.
Engineers use windows when they get bumped into management and no longer need a high-powered workstation. Period. I see ti every day.
Ask the Verity or Verplex or hydrodynamics guys which os's they use...and then come back here and tell me which os is the TOY os.
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
Why do Linux people continue with the fantasy that their operating system is anything other than a tool for elitist, arrogant techies (nost of whom long for the days when computers were hard to use, and resent Microsoft for making computers easy for the man in the street).
First of all: take a deep breath. Relax.
I don't think Loki's (or anyone else's) intention is to make Linux a killer gaming platform. I think they're trying to make a few bucks selling games to Linux users.
I am a Linux user. I use Linux (and other Unix flavors) exclusively. I do so not because of arrogance or a love of things complicated, but because for what I do, it works very well. Sure - occasionally I need to access a Windows application, but I do that through Citrix, or VMware. The other 99% of the time, when I'm irc'ing, web browsing, playing mp3's, playing games, administrating servers, writing documentation, or just screwing around, Windows is a hinderance to my style of computing.
I am a member of the market that Loki is targetting. If they create a new market at the same time - great! That would be awesome. If not, there are still (in theory) enough users like me to support their development costs (and take home a nice piece of change). My $0.02.
--
All men are great
before declaring war
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
... and we have an IBM commertial.
Seeka
Who cares what other people think? Linux will still be there. People who care will still write code for it. Linux will continue to get better. Anyone who doesn't use it is losing out but it's their loss, not yours. Wrong! By not being a popular operating system, we loose a lot of support in the "driver" front, and although populating Linux through the newbie community might be a bad idea, you'll probably reach a few techies that will implement Windows technologies on Linux. I'd say one of the big problems right now with Linux is it's inability to adapt to new technologies, like Windows can. Sure, Windows is about as versatile as Mandrake in the auto-detection front, but they have companies making drivers for them so it works. Example? I can't use Linux on my newly-bought OEM machine because it includes Ultra ATA/100 support on the motherboard. I'm not certain this is the problem, of course, but Windows seems to work fine with it. Right now, if I tell someone I'm going to buy them a computer, they automatically assume it includes something from Bill Gates, the rich guy. The whole point of getting interested is so that Linux does not get pushed through, and only marketed to "techies who want a toy". We need it not only to be "not old technology", but we need it to lead the way as a standard precdent. We'll be the DDR SDRam against the RDRam struggle. (Cheaper/Faster) Linux will continue to get better, but there is harm in thinking that you can keep it all to yourself.
Seeka
Before you mod me down, let me explain. As a triber, I enjoyed many things about Tribes. You didn't have to have the fastest machine in the world (133 mhz would do) to run it, it was fast-paced and very fun, and really stable.
Now we get Tribes 2, after a three year wait. I bought the game for $49.95 from a local store, brought it home, and installed it on my Win2k gaming machine (it's nothing too great, but it plays Q3, Tribes, and various other games really well.)
The installation process goes fairly well, no big problems. It is a huge game, though, taking 550MB of space (standard install).
I start the game. Three required patches available (keep in mind, this is the same night the game was released!) I downloaded the patches and attempted to apply them, only to get a few errors regarding the files being invalid.
To make a long story short, Dynamix shipped a bad disc. I was lucky enough to get it. I went back out and found another copy of Tribes 2 at another store. Came back, uninstalled the previous copy, and installed from the new disc.
Started Tribes 2 and reapplied the three patches. They applied this time around. Tribes 2 launches and crashes, yet again. I used a fix described at TribalWar in order to switch from OpenGL to Direct3D without entering the game. Restarted the game -- wow, I was in!
Now it wanted my CD key. Tribes 2 uses an authentication system (Windows XP/Office XP, anyone?) in order to create an account for you to play with other people via the Internet. I input my CD key.
"CD key rejected. Your key is already in use."
Uuuuuuuuugh! I reinstalled Tribes 2 and reapplied the patches. Woah, it accepts the CD key. I went ahead and created my account. There are plenty of servers, many with a great ping. I joined a CTF game, to be greeted by none other than a GPF.
I restarted Tribes 2. Re-entered the game. No GPF this time. Woohoo! I was about to play the most anticipated game of 2001! I join the game, OoO, 40 fps and it looks great.
I step outside (spawned inside) and my framerate drops to 7fps. This is with everything turned down at 640x480 on a 550 mhz PIII and a Voodoo3 (yes, I know, getting old, but it's way above T2's system requirements stated on the box, which are a 350mhz PII.)
Needless to say, I switched back to Tribes, which many people seem to be doing. That disc didn't earn its permanent slot in my CD-ROM.
I decided to read Sierra's message boards, where there was a thread about poor performance. You know what the developer's response was to us 3dfx owners? "Get a newer computer!" And they claim to support 3dfx chipsets from the V2 up.
Dynamix has taken everything that was great about T1 and thrown it down the drain. You have to have the fastest machine and expect slower gameplay.
To sum it up:
Dynamix was aiming to please people like IGN and Daily Radar, not the common gamer. Definitely not recommended. Many long-time Tribers feel the same as I do.
Do you like German cars?
... The Linux-compatible Tribes 2 engine is being sold, source and all, for $100 by GarageGames. They're all ex-Sierra/Dynamix employees with a license.
You do, however, have to publish your game through GG...
Do you like German cars?
Okay, you're right. When I said "these games" I really meant "a lot of the other games that have been released for Linux." I didn't mean to suggest that Tribes 2 was old .. apologies if I implied otherwise (and reading what I wrote, I did.)
.. DOOM was a great game, perhaps among the best ever, but Joe Sixpack is going to get the wrong impression from this. IMHO we don't need this.
.. isn't that what a console, a big-screen TV, and 600 watts of Surround Sound are for?
But for an example of what I mean by "a lot of the other games", take DOOM. There was a big hubbub about id Software releasing and opening up DOOM for Linux, and this was years after the height of its popularity. Again, don't get me wrong
I've never understood why people go for PC gaming anyway
Am I the only one that is not necessarily pleased by this whole "games for Linux" phenomenon? In my opinion, news like this actually hurts Linux, for at least a couple of reasons:
1) These games are old. Sorry, but Alpha Centauri? Look, you don't need to convince me it was a great game, but the key word there is "was!" When people on the street see news like this, they'll say "Hmm, so this Linux OS is just now getting this game? It must really be behind the times!"
2) To promote Linux as a gaming platform is to promote it as a "toy OS." Yes, I'm aware that Windows is heavily promoted as a gaming platform, but how many technically-savvy people would consider it anything less than a toy OS? Windows at least has the strength of having the "heavyweight" office automation package. If the average guy on the street asks what software is available for Linux, what do you say? "Quake III and Emacs?" We can't have the only high-visibility software for Linux be game software, because then Linux becomes a toy OS.
I think we would do well to avoid having these two misconceptions forced upon Linux. Linux already suffers from the perception of being an operating system that is targeted primarily at political leftists; it would be a shame if we had to add on two more ridiculous and hateful suggestions. I, like most Slashdot readers, love Linux. I know that "Linux is yesterday's technology" is bullshit. I know that "Linux is a toy OS is bullshit." So let's not encourage anything that would lead people to think otherwise, mmmkay?
Why would any game developer would ever waste time on toy OS like linux? Its user interface sucks,
the X/KDE2/GTK sucks!!! The keyboard shortcuts, withing X are quitelimited, don't even come close to a real OS. The configurability of it doesn't even come close to a real OS. And its much harder to configure, and install it than any real OS.
The linux cannot even compare a real professional OS, in integration of office tools, text editors, mail programs, news viewers,and all other good stuff.
To put everything I stated before in a one sentence. Why the heck they don't port them to EMACS!!!
Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
This could not have come at a worst time. I have my A-level exams in 5 weeks. Oh well I will fail. Never mind,
Shoot me
What a load of shit. And modded as +4... just goes to show you it's all in the UID. If someone with a greater UID was saying this it would be nothing more then -1, Shit.
Continue to draw generalizations about Linux users and all the while wonder why Linux doesn't catch on -- mabye it's generalizations that are doing it rather then the actual userbase. Claim it isn't putting out games fast enough, nevermind there is only one company actually working on that. State it needs DirectX -- who cares if that library is almost 100% controlled by Microsoft and attached to Windows -- and back that up with "now even consoles are getting it" (yeah, microsoft consoles.)
Linux can't become mainstream with the magical wave of a wand (much as mandrake would have us believe.) It takes lots of work. But I also do not think it is completely fair to say it needs to become "mainstream." Why? There are certain reasons it will never become "mainstream" it can't get around! There is no way they can be fixed. Certain aspects of the system can get fixed, but by and by the things this person is complaining about -- ie, it not being able to do what Windows does with certain apps -- are not things that can be remedied, atleast right away. Mabye not even EVER.
This is a complete troll. Ironic thing is, while this person may have been admirable for being around from the beginning he still makes sloppy, shoddy and poor declarations about users and conditions of a particular operating system and in the parent ultimately doesn't have anymore insight then the most insipid warez kiddie he claims to despise.
mwtr / THIS SIG HAS BEEN PRAYED OVER AND MAY BE USED AS A POINT OF CONTACT (ACTS 19:12)
the guy self promoted. Look at how far it fell back down. He pulled the same stunt in another recent thread. Damn good troll i think. look at the results
Seriously, I haven't been holding my breath for commercial gaming companies to port to Linux. There are some nice Linux games out there, and I'd much rather see the tradition of open source games continue. The classic UNIX games (rogue, etc.) are great, and they are great because lots of people contributed. I think the gameplay is still better than in most of the commercial games. Let's bring back that tradition.
Considering AC is published by Microsoft, I think you're out of luck.
My IP is 192.168.1.100 Hack it if you want.
What? I pity the fool that don't like Sid Meier. :P Alpha Centauri was released in 98'ish. It is a great game. Pull out your old copy of Quake I, play it through. Sure, the graphics are dated, but it's equally as fun.
What an awesome site.
Pointing out opportunities for anal rape since nineteen 'aught six.
Good point about the catch 22 situation.
:o)
Reminds me of the battle between the PS1 and its competitors at the time. Nintendo and Sega were far more established (even if Sega was better known for its arcade systems) and along comes the PS1. It forces its way into the market by one simple expedient. By the time it hit market there were already loads of games available, and this didn't change. For a while it was probably the platform most games were released on, and its popularity soared. The PS2 is riding on the back of that success (the PS1 games are better IMHO) at the moment. Of course, the huge publicity campaign helped
I think (again IMHO!) that if Linux ever wants to challenge M$ for the home-users market, it's going to have to start offering a similar wealth of games. Now, if developers could be persuaded to release a couple of high profile games on Linux only, it could raise the profile a bit....
I use a dual boot Win98/RH 6.2 system, with win only for games, and at the moment, that seems to be all it's used for!
Rational thought is the only true freedom
Let's see, who would I be more afraid of in my country: people with ancient traditions and spirituality, a people that has survived all the shit that white supremicists have thrown at them and been successful by their own labours or a bunch of hicks whose sole aim in life, it would appear, is to promote violence and xenophobia. National Alliance, National Front. You don't seem to realise your whole ethnic heritage is one enormous mix of many races. What you going to do next? Start picking on anyone who isn't from your town? Your family? Anyone but you?
If there's any race of people I want to see eradicated from this planet it's the useless wasters with barely more braincells than my arse who somehow think that being a pasty white skinhead makes them homo superior. Crawl back under the rock and let people get on with their lives. You might actually do something worthwhile and constructive with all that spare time...
"Don't get mad, get a monkey!"
Voodoo 3 3000
S3 Virge GX
S3 Savage
ATI Rage 128
Intel i740
nVidia TNT2
ATI Rage LT Pro
Trident Cyber something or other
Not one of these using distro rpms, utah glx or X4 (with or without nVidia binaries) has shown the slightest ability to run 3D either at all or stabily (that's if they're even supported for 3D in the first place).
And from the experiece of people I've talked to:
Ati Rage Pro on PPC
Voodoo 2
G400
didn't want to know either.
Great, chum, your setup works. Ever wondered why people complain so much about 3D acceleration under linux? It's cos it's such a hit and miss affair. I don't personally know anyone here or anyone on the net *bar one person with an nvidia tnt* who's had 3D working under linux properly. Goes to show don't it. And I know how you feel; I'm currently converting some people here from Windows and they're installing SuSE 6.4. I never had any bother at all with it, but they're finding problems with sound cards, graphics cards (not even 3D) and modems and god knows what on what are perfectly functioning machines with a perfectly functioning linux distro. But it doesn't matter how many times I say "But it works fine on anything I've done!", they're still not working.
We wouldn't complain if it sodding worked would we? Particularly when on the same machine they boot into Windows and, ooh, it all just works. Not the fault of the developers, if they're given sod all to work with what do you expect but saying "but mine works!" doesn't change the fact that after a hell of a lot of work I have been unable to get it going on anything I own or admin or on friend's machines. Thus, I do not buy 3d linux games and am even wary over buying 2d ones after Heroes 3 decided it didn't like me much after upgrading to X4.0.2.
It's the one thing really lacking from my hardware support under linux and I've seen nothing to change this view in the 3 years I've been using it. This isn't to say it can't be fun getting Windows to work on it either, but you stand a much better chance.
To put it simply I'll believe Linux has good 3D support when I see it with my own, gOoOgly, eyes. And why bother when I have yet to see any of my games consoles to crash?
"Don't get mad, get a monkey!"
Lord preserve us from ever saying something against linux even when you use it as your primary OS on all your machines and run a Linux network.
I mean, it's not as if wouldn't love to go out and support linux by buying games for it but it'd be pointless as I have nothing they'd run on (at more than 1fps) and I'm not that flush with cash.
AC might just make its way onto my harddrive, though. But only once I've given the demo a bloody good run on X4...
Sorry for pointing out the experiences of both myself and friends with linux 3d support, I'll just lie through my teeth next time. *ahem* All my machines, even those that don't have hardware 3d support under XFree86 3.3.6 or 4.0.3 have high quality hardware 3D acceleration, which is not only stable but also faster than under Windows. I didn't have to anything special, I just installed Linux and it set it all up for me at the click of a button. Yep, I'm off out right now to the store to pick up all those great Loki games. I have nothing to worry about like my machine randomly crashing, slow jerky performance or my OS locking up tighter than a tom cat's arsehole. Those Windows and Mac OS using phewls won't know what hit them when they see my machine blow theirs away at Quake3.
Is that better? Using slashdot sure is an educating experience.
"Don't get mad, get a monkey!"
I've sent the odd report to utah glx but there comes a point it's just not worth it any more. I have better things to do with my time than enter hand to hand combat with device drivers just so I can play the one or two games it's worth having 3d for or having fancier screensavers.
Oh, and you can play Q3 on a PS2 ;0). As well as many games you can't get on any PC platform. Which work. Which don't crash. Which don't take up months of your time just to get running. And which also plays DVDs. And you can just go plug in that huge TV in the next room. And so what about price? A new highend 3d card will set you back about as much as a current gen console. And that's *just* the gfx card.
Nice to hear some people are getting it working, but it's too late for me, I've already given up and will only believe it when any distro I install just so happens to get it working for me. But if it takes more than 5 minutes to set up I ain't interested. I can well do without the hassle. Which is a shame cos pretty much everything else works fine.
"Don't get mad, get a monkey!"
Sure, we can't go to any computer store and buy them yet, or at least I can't, but it is getting better. I seen Mandrake at Wal-Mart. Not to mention a decent selection of distros at larger computer stores, slackware even. So in my opinion it is just a matter of time before we see all the great games for Linux, and in stores. I just want Need For Speed!
Now lets convince all software stores to carry linux games, then companies would spend more time making them.
And as he looked upon the being he realized it was to late.
Thanks for the info! I never bothered getting Q3A for Linux because I haven't been able to find it for the same price or less than the Windows version; I might just have to get Q3A and others from EBGames.com now.