Heh,
I wish I could remember what my ID was about 8-9 (/. been around that long? jeez.) years ago.... don' even know what uid I would've been back then.
However, that's a very misleading statement.
If Foxconn builds boards under CONTRACT for Intel, they're building to Intel's design specifications and to Intel's standards.
Foxconn's quality says nothing to Intel's. Personally, I think Foxconn should stick to board components, as that's something they actually do well. Typically their in-house boards are pretty cheap-o.
Intel's, though, have been rock-solid for us.
If you're running at least build 116 (update and you will be) if you go to TOOLS -> ADVANCED SETTINGS -> IGNORE FAULTY CONDITIONS
Check the Web-shield item and you won't be notified in the tray anymore if you disable it.
Easy-peasy.
As long as all you ever have to do is add memory or replace a hard drive, you're fine. Eris help ya if you have to do anything else. I agreed to my usual notebook rate for a lady who had a cd drive in hand for a 12in G4 Macbook (if I remember properly). I figured it'd be in-out-done like with every other PC notebook on the planet.
I ultimately had to call her back and adjust the estimate when I found that I had to dismantle the thing down to the bare chassis to change the optical. I mean seriously. There is no logical way a motherboard should have to come out before ANY of the other peripherals.
All I know is I can tear down notebooks from any PC manufacturer (except for Sony, the bastards) in 20-30 min. without a problem. I had a service manual (of sorts) for that Macbook and it still took me 1.5 hours to get that optical switched. So many damned screws, brackets and fidgeting.
Ah. Therein lies problem #2. HP's default vista images are horrendous. They install so much resource-hogging crap the OS never has a chance.
Best thing you can do is get a vanilla OEM disk and wipe that sucker clean and re-install Vista fresh, install SP1 immediately, and then get the drivers on there. I guarantee you'll see a 100% improvement.
This is why I tell my customers the benefits of dealing with a system builder and not the big OEMs.;)
That being said, for businesses I absolutely am sticking with XP. Too much legacy hardware, software, etc.
For your average Joe home user with a properly spec'd machine with a good installation it's pretty easy to deal with. It does have it problems, though, no doubt.
And yet, i'm looking at my Vista machine right now with 3GB of RAM, a T7100 Core 2, and a 5400RPM HD happily NOT accessing the HD hardly at all, and opening all my apps nice and quickly and with no hesitation.
And then I go and look at two of my customers' PCs that i've put Vista on, one entry-level Pentium Dual-core 2GB system and one monster gaming system I built and they both respond exactly as I'd expect them to.
What i've found anecdotally is that the people who don't have any problems with Vista are the folks who run their PC, do what they need to with it, install an app occasionally, and basically just USE it.
On the flip side, the folks i've had to do major repairs and re-installs on were the guys who decided they knew what they were doing and started disabling services, running registry cleaners, messing with settings they had no business messing with, etc.
It's just like Server 2003. Use the wizards, don't manually tweak anything. If you let it go as it's supposed to, you won't have any problems.
*shrug* I don't have any major Vista problems, my customers don't, but I do have customers i've downgraded.
IMHO, the launch was pretty flawed and the hardware reqs were pretty well understated. If you build a solid system with good vista-supported hardware, a dual-core chip and at least 2GB of RAM, and don't f' around with the thing my customers are generally pretty happy.
Here's another one, my GF recently reinstalled windows. She accidentally put it on the 3rd partition, which should be OK. But then she installed OS X, so she formatted the 2nd partition, now Windows doesn't see it, and it recalculated the drive letters. Now windows won't even boot, and I have to edit the registry. Really?!? Come on now. You're really going to fault Windows because it wasn't able to survive and boot through another OS installation? Not to mention said OS probably isn't natively meant to be installed on said PC, and said OS through its own processes most likely wiped the Windows or Linux-installed Master Boot Record.
I hate to tell you, but that's going to be a little bit of a problem for any OS, Windows or otherwise.
Now, that being said, it's not that big a deal to get that multi-boot system functioning properly again (even the Windows partition, *shock*) IF you know what you're doing or have a basic understanding of reading and following HOWTOs.
Sorry, but blaming MS on that one is a little off. I'd blame your GF.
Uh, yeah. Except for the fact that Apple also is the OS designer. So because they happen to BE the integrator, they have much less need for openness and compatibility with all the various components, chipsets, etc. that Microsoft has to allow for in every integrator's hardware.
I actually was talking retailer-specific, to clarify. Most (if not all) brick and mortar retailers have salespeople that don't know JACK about PCs. Or if they do, they're the type that think they know what they're talking about but only know what sales presentations they've been given by Intel, MS, etc. Not very technical.
Also, the big OEMs are much more concerned with hitting certain price points on margin than building PCs that have a decent quality anymore. Very simply, we don't build a PC for less than $550. That's because we don't skimp on crappy PSUs, chassis', and parts. Consequently, we can offer our customers a 3-year parts wty and don't have to worry about big issues (other than the usual PSU failures and HDs, which are minimized).
I'll blame MS to a certain point. The Windows Mail bugs are a pain in the ass, and if you followed their "capable" specs building machines for folks, you definitely saw performance problems. Thankfully, I never considered building Vista PCs without dual-core chips and 1GB so we've seen minimal performance problems from our customers.
That being said, the usual complaints of driver incompatibilities and third-party problems I place solely on the shoulders of those third-parties. MS puts their requirements out there and if they're improperly followed, of course you're going to have problems.
The Apple people love to point to Macs as being rock-solid, etc. But if they had to accommodate as many different third-parties as Microsoft does with PCs, guess what... MacOS would have the same problems. I mean, seriously, they've got what 10-12 specific models to keep tight control of? Oh yeah, they still have issues too.
And Linux... well... the day that you never have to touch a command line or the kernel for driver support (such as sound on my Santa Rosa notebook on Ubuntu) is the day i'll put it on all my machines. It's much MUCH better these days, but no.
So anyway, to sum up, i'll put some blame on MS, but more on all the third-parties retailers and manufacturers for what shortcomings Vista is perceived to have. That being said, my customers haven't had major issues.
People seem to forget the Windows XP launch, too. This is the same thing all over again except that Apple did a MUCH better job this time around of piling on. Between Slashdotters and Apple, the FUD has been flying.
Heh, yeah. Don't get me wrong, you definitely need decent hardware. That being said, though, we're building our entry-level PCs as Pentium Dual-core systems with 1GB (though i always recommend two) and integrated graphics. They run Vista pretty well, of course the 2GB variety are much better. For the price, people always take the 2GB, so we're prolly just gonna bump our standard build to 2GB.
That being said, we're still keeping XP as an option, of course. Most people take Vista now, though.
Oh yeah... our shop has sold at least 100 PCs with Vista pre-installed now. I've had a total of FIVE come in with issues that I could legitimately call a Vista flaw. They were fixed easily, too.
Like I said, it's all about how you build them and being competent and asking the right questions.
Yeah. On a well-built machine, with a nice clean installation of Vista, i've had minimal issues. As a matter of fact, most people who come into the shop with Vista issues can usually be taken care of by uninstalling all the extra crap that the big OEMs stick in there and bumping the ram (usually 1GB).
It's funny that the folks who have complained the most over the years about FUD are now the biggest perpetrators of it.;)
That's not how you do it. You're supposed to talk about how THIS is the year Linux is finally going mainstream and everyone's finally going to start using it, learning the shell and modding the kernel. That, or how everyone should just buy an Apple or something. Vista's the worst thing ever, remember?
Slashdot Mirror
Heh, I wish I could remember what my ID was about 8-9 (/. been around that long? jeez.) years ago.... don' even know what uid I would've been back then.
"...clever" usage of the dollar sign back.
However, that's a very misleading statement. If Foxconn builds boards under CONTRACT for Intel, they're building to Intel's design specifications and to Intel's standards. Foxconn's quality says nothing to Intel's. Personally, I think Foxconn should stick to board components, as that's something they actually do well. Typically their in-house boards are pretty cheap-o. Intel's, though, have been rock-solid for us.
If you're running at least build 116 (update and you will be) if you go to TOOLS -> ADVANCED SETTINGS -> IGNORE FAULTY CONDITIONS Check the Web-shield item and you won't be notified in the tray anymore if you disable it. Easy-peasy.
As long as all you ever have to do is add memory or replace a hard drive, you're fine. Eris help ya if you have to do anything else. I agreed to my usual notebook rate for a lady who had a cd drive in hand for a 12in G4 Macbook (if I remember properly). I figured it'd be in-out-done like with every other PC notebook on the planet.
I ultimately had to call her back and adjust the estimate when I found that I had to dismantle the thing down to the bare chassis to change the optical. I mean seriously. There is no logical way a motherboard should have to come out before ANY of the other peripherals.
All I know is I can tear down notebooks from any PC manufacturer (except for Sony, the bastards) in 20-30 min. without a problem. I had a service manual (of sorts) for that Macbook and it still took me 1.5 hours to get that optical switched. So many damned screws, brackets and fidgeting.
Damn they're neat-lookin' though.
Ah. Therein lies problem #2. HP's default vista images are horrendous. They install so much resource-hogging crap the OS never has a chance.
;)
Best thing you can do is get a vanilla OEM disk and wipe that sucker clean and re-install Vista fresh, install SP1 immediately, and then get the drivers on there. I guarantee you'll see a 100% improvement.
This is why I tell my customers the benefits of dealing with a system builder and not the big OEMs.
That being said, for businesses I absolutely am sticking with XP. Too much legacy hardware, software, etc.
For your average Joe home user with a properly spec'd machine with a good installation it's pretty easy to deal with. It does have it problems, though, no doubt.
And yet, i'm looking at my Vista machine right now with 3GB of RAM, a T7100 Core 2, and a 5400RPM HD happily NOT accessing the HD hardly at all, and opening all my apps nice and quickly and with no hesitation.
And then I go and look at two of my customers' PCs that i've put Vista on, one entry-level Pentium Dual-core 2GB system and one monster gaming system I built and they both respond exactly as I'd expect them to.
What i've found anecdotally is that the people who don't have any problems with Vista are the folks who run their PC, do what they need to with it, install an app occasionally, and basically just USE it.
On the flip side, the folks i've had to do major repairs and re-installs on were the guys who decided they knew what they were doing and started disabling services, running registry cleaners, messing with settings they had no business messing with, etc.
It's just like Server 2003. Use the wizards, don't manually tweak anything. If you let it go as it's supposed to, you won't have any problems.
*shrug* I don't have any major Vista problems, my customers don't, but I do have customers i've downgraded.
IMHO, the launch was pretty flawed and the hardware reqs were pretty well understated. If you build a solid system with good vista-supported hardware, a dual-core chip and at least 2GB of RAM, and don't f' around with the thing my customers are generally pretty happy.
Wait, what? A Slashdot article slamming MS that might be incorrect? Be still my heart.
Uh, yeah. Except for the fact that Apple also is the OS designer. So because they happen to BE the integrator, they have much less need for openness and compatibility with all the various components, chipsets, etc. that Microsoft has to allow for in every integrator's hardware.
Not just ONE integrator's select hardware.
You still didn't disprove my point.
Right on. 2GB is definitely the minimum i'd recommend.
I actually was talking retailer-specific, to clarify. Most (if not all) brick and mortar retailers have salespeople that don't know JACK about PCs. Or if they do, they're the type that think they know what they're talking about but only know what sales presentations they've been given by Intel, MS, etc. Not very technical.
Also, the big OEMs are much more concerned with hitting certain price points on margin than building PCs that have a decent quality anymore. Very simply, we don't build a PC for less than $550. That's because we don't skimp on crappy PSUs, chassis', and parts. Consequently, we can offer our customers a 3-year parts wty and don't have to worry about big issues (other than the usual PSU failures and HDs, which are minimized).
I'll blame MS to a certain point. The Windows Mail bugs are a pain in the ass, and if you followed their "capable" specs building machines for folks, you definitely saw performance problems. Thankfully, I never considered building Vista PCs without dual-core chips and 1GB so we've seen minimal performance problems from our customers.
That being said, the usual complaints of driver incompatibilities and third-party problems I place solely on the shoulders of those third-parties. MS puts their requirements out there and if they're improperly followed, of course you're going to have problems.
The Apple people love to point to Macs as being rock-solid, etc. But if they had to accommodate as many different third-parties as Microsoft does with PCs, guess what... MacOS would have the same problems. I mean, seriously, they've got what 10-12 specific models to keep tight control of? Oh yeah, they still have issues too.
And Linux... well... the day that you never have to touch a command line or the kernel for driver support (such as sound on my Santa Rosa notebook on Ubuntu) is the day i'll put it on all my machines. It's much MUCH better these days, but no.
So anyway, to sum up, i'll put some blame on MS, but more on all the third-parties retailers and manufacturers for what shortcomings Vista is perceived to have. That being said, my customers haven't had major issues.
People seem to forget the Windows XP launch, too. This is the same thing all over again except that Apple did a MUCH better job this time around of piling on. Between Slashdotters and Apple, the FUD has been flying.
Heh, yeah. Don't get me wrong, you definitely need decent hardware. That being said, though, we're building our entry-level PCs as Pentium Dual-core systems with 1GB (though i always recommend two) and integrated graphics. They run Vista pretty well, of course the 2GB variety are much better. For the price, people always take the 2GB, so we're prolly just gonna bump our standard build to 2GB. That being said, we're still keeping XP as an option, of course. Most people take Vista now, though. Oh yeah... our shop has sold at least 100 PCs with Vista pre-installed now. I've had a total of FIVE come in with issues that I could legitimately call a Vista flaw. They were fixed easily, too. Like I said, it's all about how you build them and being competent and asking the right questions.
Yeah. On a well-built machine, with a nice clean installation of Vista, i've had minimal issues. As a matter of fact, most people who come into the shop with Vista issues can usually be taken care of by uninstalling all the extra crap that the big OEMs stick in there and bumping the ram (usually 1GB). It's funny that the folks who have complained the most over the years about FUD are now the biggest perpetrators of it. ;)
That's not how you do it. You're supposed to talk about how THIS is the year Linux is finally going mainstream and everyone's finally going to start using it, learning the shell and modding the kernel. That, or how everyone should just buy an Apple or something. Vista's the worst thing ever, remember?
No. SP1 is RTM, but a pre-requisite update went a bit awry and THAT's what they pulled back.