Slashdot Mirror
Apple Laptop Upgrades Costing 200% More Than Dells
An anonymous reader writes "C|net is highlighting the astonishing cost of Apple laptop hardware upgrades, compared to Dell — in some instances, Apple is charging 200% more for upgraded components, such as memory and hard disks. Either there's a serious difference in the quality of components being used, or Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves."
Top end vendor charges more for service than mass-market vendor.
Film at 11.
Is crushing a suspect's child's testicles illegal?
John Yoo: "No, [if] the President thinks he needs to do that."
Just pay your neighborhood friendly computer geek to install the upgrade for you. You aren't forced to go through the Mac store.
Really? 200% more? That is 3 times as much. Or perhaps you actually meant 100% more, which is twice as much... or alternatively, "200% as much as".
They cost 200% more because owning an apple makes you 200% cooler.
Computer manufacturers charge way more than they should for components & installation.
my personal experience is that the Apple hardware is far superior and requires less upgrades and that is why the cost is much more. Supply and Demand.
This is also true of Apple desktops.
Simple check: Go to the Apple store, and price a Mac Pro 8-core with the basic amenities; 2 GB ram, the recommended HD. Then price it maxed out; one HD of the largest size (1/2 TB last I looked) and 32 GB of RAM. Finally, take the original price and add 32 GB of RAM in 4 GB sticks (the Mac Pro can take 8 sticks) from a reputable online store. The difference is astonishing.
I have a recent Mac Pro, and I expanded it the sensible way; the amount of money I saved by doing that is staggering. I've had absolutely no problems.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
... Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves
Ouch! What are they ripping off and why would they do that to people giving them lots of money?
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
Doesn't matter if it's trendy clothing, a trendy car or anything else, it's going to be more expensive if it's the 'cool' thing to do.
I vote that they are using higher quality then the sub par commodity dell components, but still charging more then they should because they can.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Apple tax isn't news....it's old hat.
I'm an Apple user and I can tell you, no-one where I live 'upgrades' through Apple...the local Apple Centre will sell you kingston memory if you want an upgrade becasue it's cheaper to buy a mac, rip out the memory and replace it than it is to upgrade through apple.
old news.http://crave.cnet.co.uk/laptops/0,39029450,49297849-1,00.htm Here's the link to the first page...if you care.
I get my oil changed at the dealer for various reasons:
1. I don't know how to change my own
2. I prefer to use the dealer since they can do warranty replacement on the spot if something is broken
Yes, I pay probably twice as much, and I like it. Kinda seems like the same situation here.
I like Apple. I've got my MacBook Pro next to me. At home we have another MBP, a MacBook, and an iMac. In the past we've owned numerous other Macs (all the way back to an LC II).
So let me say... duh. It is very well known that Apple does this. Read any thread on Macs here on /. Someone says Macs are great computers. Someone replies "but look what they charge for RAM!". The someone else says "well yeah, Apple is like that, buy the RAM separately."
This OLD. This is STALE. This is well known by anyone who watches this stuff. It's stupid, but Apple is allowed to price gouge if they want. This is just some "journalist" writing about a "discovery" to get page-views.
Just don't buy your upgrades from Apple.
And don't give this guy the hits he doesn't deserve.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
I can change the hard drive in a Dell in a conservative 4 minutes, to do the same in a MacBook Pro takes 40 minutes and chances are it is going back together bent with a couple screws stripped.
I've tested Apple ram and non-Apple ram (most of the big ones) extensively as part of what I do for a living, and it is very much the case that Apple ram has a very, very low rate of failure--one of the lowest actually. I don't know about the rest of their hardware, but part of the Apple deal that I do know about is how they pay for their care plans, which almost always cost Apple more than it costs the customer...
They do it by rigidly controlling the components of the hardware---they're not about to replace non-Apple ram for you when it fails for free--or at all. In return for using all Apple components, you get what amounts to the best guarantee (for the first year) in the industry. In order to pay for that level of care, Apple charges more for its components.
I'm not sure that it's not a rip-off in some sense, but anyone who's dealt with Dell's customer service in the last three years knows veyr well that you get what you pay for.
I think it means exactly what he thinks it means.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rip%20off
Seeing as how I enjoy building my own computer apple pretty much prevents you from doing this...Prepare to get fscked by the long dick of steve jobbs
A percentage should never be used with either the term "more" or "less." It should always be "of." Then any ambiguity is eliminated.
Apple's hardware costs 200% of Dell's.
The worst is when someone says "This costs ten times less than that!" Really? The price is NEGATIVE 900% of that? Better is "This costs 10% of that."
In other news: radio upgrades cost more on a BMW than on a Hyundai. With that or with RAM upgrades, you can either do it yourself (or hire someone), or you can let the dealer do it. Guess which is always more expensive?
Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves.
That would literally hurt.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Also, compared to most smaller market players, both Apple and Dell are outrageously overpriced in this regard.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Is that "literally" in the figurative sense, as in "figuratively literally ripping?"
The thing is not about the 'dealer' generically overcharging. It's about Apple overcharging more than other vendors overcharging. All of them charge more for options for the general philosophy you hold justifying it, but overcharging more than a comparable competitor....
BTW, I did have the dealer change my oil during warranty because they sent me coupons for free oil changes for the duration of my warranty, but in the end, I find it hard to see how an oil change could break anything else, so I do it myself now that it is out of warranty.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
It's true that Apple gouge on upgrades, but it's hardly a new phenomenon. They were doing it 4 years ago when I bought my first Mac and were doing it well before then too. It's a form of price discrimination, similar in that way to rebates and coupons. Those willing to expend more effort (fit their own RAM, fill out a rebate) effectively pay a lower price which allows the store to sell to a broader range of customers while maximising profit.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
That applies to everything. Look at how many people pay top dollar for a better product. Mercedes sells a lot of those C(heap) class models to people who want the better quality vehicle. I figure it is just like corrective optical surgery. Do you want the cheap guy to perform that procedure? I am so glad no one has come by and tried to force me to buy an Apple yet, I can still buy them by choice.
I once had a friend of mine explain to me he didn't have internet because it would cost too much to have an airport card installed on his precious Mac. He even had Wi-Fi in his apartment. That's just sad.
Sometimes (the last two times) I change my own [automobiles'] oil. Sometimes I don't. The point is whether or not I feel capable or up to it and whether or not the money and time I spend is worth more or less than the money.
Personally, I wouldn't dream of paying someone to work on my computers. But that's just me... and probably most everyone here has similar sentiments. HOWEVER, the masses think of computers as difficult, scary and complicated beasts and would rather pay. If they bought an Apple, they are no stranger to the belief that they pay more but are getting more. While the latter is debatable, that's not the point. The point is that they are more than likely very comfortable with paying whatever price they end up paying or else they would seek less expensive alternatives... and there *are* alternatives. This is a classic "what the market will bear" capitalism. Leave it alone.
In other news, people pay for service. Seriously, I don't know many places at all that charge less than $40-50 min for a lot of simple things like putting in a stick of RAM. I do charge less - which most private clients comment on - but I only do that when I have the time to bother.
You are paying for the service. It's not a new thing. Have a look at internet hosting providers, where many will charge you an extra $60/month for an extra gig stick of RAM, or $600 outright to have it installed.
As for the quality of components, it's well known that Dell - and many others - use shit components. The last few Dell's I serviced (and I avoid them if at all possible now) had cheap, no-name brand BS boards, bargain-basement RAM, and feather-light cruddy PSU's. On top of this, oft-times stock components (floppy drives, etc) would not work in them, due to special case-configurations (such as the drive-screws being on top instead of bottom) that worked only with Dell components. The dell components were still genero-brand crap, but higher priced and altered enough that they were the only ones that fit.
So is it ripping off customers? Well, they're definitely paying more. But I'd consider a long-lasting, reliable PC at $1500+ a deal compared to a $500 unit that runs like crap and may decide to die (and take my data with it) anytime.
I haven't disassembled any of the newer macs in awhile though, but why not buy the parts and - if you don't want to pay Apple to install them - get a local geek to do the job?
if you rearrange RAM ... you get ARM, so of course they have to charge you extra to justify your ARM. No, I don't know when is the LEG.
The only problem with laptops is that fact that it's not very easy to add new ram compared to desktops or iMacs, and most people won't want to try. It's easier for them to just buy the extras from Apple and have it pre-installed.
I don't know anyone who buys or recommends buying their upgrades from Apple. Some prices are reasonable, but mainly memory and hard drives are cheaper to buy and install on your own. I wouldn't say Dell and the others are that much better, if I get a IBM or Dell laptop I order the same way and upgrade with 3rd party.
If Apple is literally ripping off consumers, I think you forgot your direct object. Maybe Apple is quite literally ripping the arms off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves? Why isn't this bigger news?
literal
in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical
Slang would also typically come under that. If someone said they "literally pissed all over someone" you wouldn't take it to mean they got the better of them would you?
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
It ain't UNICEF!
Apple is a premium brand, so you pay more for everything.
One of the ideas behind this strategy is that you are trying to attract primarily the most 'price-insensitive' customers. These are, after-all, the most desirable customers.
One can see how it pays off with the recent AT&T deal. Apple got the best of the deal, but AT&T justified it to their shareholders by reminding them that these are the best customers you can get.
Of course, getting these customers is not as easy at just raising your prices - being the #1 cool brand is the key and is very expensive in marketing etc. - but the upside is huge.
So if they're literally ripping people off, the people must be hiding somewhere, once they're ripped off the face of the earth, right? And why would ANYONE agree to that for an upgrade!? I mean, once you're ripped, game over man!
With respect to memory, my first thought is that this inflated price may be offset somewhat by the different requirements between the operating systems. Microsoft's official recommendation for Vista Home Premium / Business / Ultimate is 1GB, with a common belief among users that 4GB may be the "sweet spot". Compare that to Leopard, which has an official minimum recommendation of 512MB, and any new machine that you buy ships by default with 2GB, which seems to be Leopard's "sweet spot".
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Now, i don't know that much about apple products, but the same can be seen for servers.
Assume i buy an IBM server and add a 24x7 4h 3Y ServicePack to it.
Now, if i buy IBM branded RAM, it will automatically be covered by the ServicePack i bought for the server.
If i buy some (matching) Noname RAM, i'll have to run after that myself.
So you pay a price premium for having
* A assured working configuration (which you don't get if you chose components on your own)
* Service covered by a single vendor
Of course IBM tacks on a hefty profit of their own - but i don't see much wrong with that.
I've been an Apple user for quite some time, and quite frankly, this is not news. This has always been the case.
Any time I configure a machine for myself, or help someone configure their machine, I always set any Apple accessories to the minimum, then budget in an order from Newegg, OWC, etc, for any RAM and HD expansion needed.
On one hand, yeah it sucks, however many of the newer laptops, especially the Macbook (not pro) line have made it very easy to swap out RAM and HDs, so it really isn't that much of an issue. The one place that you really have no option is if you want to upgrade the CPU.
Is it a money grab from Apple for those who don't know better/are timid of their own upgrades/don't care? Does it really matter? Quite frankly if you don't research before buying anything you are probably going to get taken. This also increases the market for 3rd party upgrade retailers from Mac users who are in the know.
I know there is this stigma that Mac users only care about looking cool and being clueless, however many of the Mac/Apple users I know do not really fit into that niche at all. Many of us chose the machines we have because they fulfill the needs we have, can run the software we desire, and at a price point we are happy with. Most of us have machine that look a bit worse for the wear due to being used day in and day out both in offices and on-site. Just because Apple marketing likes to play the 'cool' person card whenever possible to grow brand recognition, does not mean that there are not serious professionals out there using the platform for serious work.
Shawn's Tech Articles
"Can you believe it? When I go to the local steakhouse, they charge me more than twice what the meat itself actually cost! I can grill porterhouses for the whole family for half of the cost of going to the restaurant, and then there's the cost of gas! WTF! Restaurants suck!"
And yet you keep going to them.
Geek squad, car mechanics, roomba accessories, batteries for power tools, printer ink cartridges, etc... the list is long of transactions that grossly favor the seller. This is business. Things are not priced according to their material cost, they are priced based on their market value. They cost what they are worth to the target market.
You could sit all day making little beaded merkins with fur trim and I won't pay you a damned cent because I don't want your damned merkins. You get paid what you're worth. Apple gets paid what their products are worth on the market. They have done the math and figured that they make more money by charging X dollars and losing a few customers than charging X to more customers.
I hate it too and when I do buy apple hardware I downgrade the memory as far as I can in order to save money by buying it elsewhere.
Think of it this way: Buying RAM at newegg or wherever is cheaper than buying it from apple, but it's also cheaper than buying it from dell. So skipping the RAM from both companies saves you money. Right?
Maybe you feel like people are getting ripped off, but that's just because you're sensitive to this area of the market. I think people are getting ripped off whenever they pay a premium for something made out of 'aircraft grade aluminum' or titanium or whatever. I work with those materials all the time and the phrase 'aircraft grade aluminum' is as useless as saying mil-spec or heavy duty. There are mil-specs for shitty things, too. 'Heavy duty' batteries are among the worst. And aircraft aluminum ranges in strength from steel down to something you can rip with your hands.
So screw people who can't open the memory access panel on their computers. Apple has free and detailed instructions on how to do that for all of their hardware. If you're paying that much for RAM, then you're also probably the kind of person who pays $45 for someone to do their oil change or $6 for someone to make their coffee for them.
Again: Market value.
-b
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
Apple has been doing this all the way back to the original Macintoshes.
There's a reason that, when Apple licensed people to sell clones, Apple's business went to the clone makers.
Here at work, that surcharge for Apple to install something in the first place, test it, and cover it with their warranty (so I don't have to prove that a failure is not my fault before sending it back) still isn't as much as it costs for me or the local IT guy to install it and fix it when it fails.
Apple isn't selling upgrades to everyone, just the folks whose time is worth too much money. Everyone else can upgrade their machines themselves. This has the added benefit of letting them stock mostly a few baseline models in their stores and distribution channels.
It's been this way for effectively forever. Nothing to see here, get off of my lawn.
Apparently they're literally ripping off the cover of both laptops so that they can shoehorn in 3.5 inch Hard drives (at the top of the page). It's either that or this guy's editor needs to be shot...
check the prices on self-installed memory, it's well over double what you can get the same memory from ANYwhere else
Apple is in your face with this. it's a blatant "rip off" IMHO
what can you expect from a company that sends out 100 dollar make-up-for-the-iphone-ripoff coupons that quietly expire a month before Christmas, thanks for nothing Steve
Though we can get a good deal on XServes, I went with a Mac Pro just because of the hard drive lock in. 80GB for $200? Or 1TB for $450? It's just ridiculous.
that Apple still made computers. Thought they were in the online music business or something.
Come on, this was old news in 1985. Apple has always had a premium price attached to their hardware. The only reason you can get into a Macbook for under $2k these days is because guys like Dell and HP are pushing the $1200-1500 range for their top flight notebooks.
"Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves."
They have been, and could, for decennia, because of their 'custom' hardware.
Newsflash: Apple is a company, it doesn't have ethics, it'll screw customers over if market forces or legislation won't stop it.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
This is not about some argument about which OS is better Microsoft of OS X or linux (cause linux clearly wins hands down), but come on Apple...
:P
But in all other respects, you are so not legit.
Really? Check out ram upgrades on their site - about 100 dollars / gig. On newegg or tiger direct for the same crucial ram, it's about 20 dollars / gig (sometimes less).
So absurd... get a grip apple, you're not that cool. Your advertisements are
These people are already buying a mac -- they have accepted the higher cost.
If the customer are savvy enough to know that the upgrades are too expensive, the customer will simply buy the upgrades themselves. If they aren't, they will simply pay the higher price.
Apple wins either way since the customer has already decided to buy the machine.
Wait... Macs?!? Expensive??? Nahh, couldn't be.
Almost all Apple products have the following on the box: "Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in China". Therefore, the labor argument is moot.
But if Valvoline charges 200% more than Midas for essentially the same oil change, customers might rightly wonder why they're paying so much when they can get the same service for cheaper elsewhere. We're not even getting into alternatives, or the possibility of changing your own oil.
Three rules for owning Macs:
1) Do not talk about Fight Club.
2) Never buy the first generation of hardware.
3) Never order RAM or drives from Apple.
Seriously, this is old news. Buy the machine bare bones, order the stuff thuird party and install it yourself. As a bonus, it gives you an excuse to buy a set of Torx drivers!
I am a believer of momentum and curves.
Dell on the other hand is pretty good at ripping of suppliers they are especially infamous for there behavior in that respect.
How is this news? Everyone knows that the Apple way of solving problems is to throw lots and lots of money at it.
Like the saying goes, if you have to ask how much it costs...
BTW, nice attempt at that "carefully hand crafted computer, made by artisans who trained for decades" canard. Apple is as mass produced as every other product out there (exploding batteries, anyone?). What IS different is that Apple manages to get at least 50% profit out of everything they make.
So hey, enjoy your "Apple Tax". Overpaying $1000 (or more, factoring in the life of the computer) is obviously way preferable to paying $30 for a Windows license. Riiiight...
I like Apple computers. Sadly, I also prefer to get the best bang for my buck. I don't change my own oil, but at the same time I do fix my own appliances, repair and build my own computers, and a number of other do-it-yourself type things because frankly, my family of five is single-income and I'm not exactly getting rich from what I do. Therefore, while I wouldn't mind owning a Mac, I just can't bring myself to part with the cash, even knowing that I could purchase and install upgrades myself without too much hassle. The system I built for myself for around $950 would easily be around $2500-$3000 if purchased from Apple, and I just don't have a few grand lying around (nor do I want that kind of credit card debt).
Dell do exactly the same thing (charge a premium for upgrades), they're just sneakier.
At Dell you have to go through their on-line configuration page, and if you upgrade one part you quickly reach a point where they insist you upgrade other components as well.
So if you want to (say) double the memory, the configurator will then say "you need a faster processor", and then if you increase the processor speed, the configurator says "need a bigger hard drive". Pretty soon it's cheaper to go up to the next model and the process repeats.
Apple is just more obvious because they have so few models (3 mass-market notebooks, 2 pro notebooks, 3 desktops, 2 pro desktops) so it's easier to spot than Dell who have bucketloads of models.
Buy the minimumn, do your own upgrades.
Fashionable vendor charges more for service than mass-market vendor.
Film at 11.
There fixed it for you :)
Apple computers have their uses to professionals, but to the average Joe on the street it's just a more fashionable (and perhaps reliable) computer - and those are the people who are getting fleeced because they don't know how to swap out some computer parts.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Exactly. I dont allow anyone to touch my PC's or my cars. I have yet to find a competent mechanic that actually knows what they are doing AND is honest.
Example? sure. go to have plugs and belts replaced. discover they did not bother to change the back 3 spark plugs because those take a lot of effort to replace and was the ONLY reason I took it to them. After having this happen to me, I started inspecting friends and family cars, shure enough, most have different plugs in back becuase mechanics are too damned lazy to do the job they are paid for.
Same goes for PC's you dont let idiots like the Gek Squad touch your PC. They cant dress themselves let alone repair a pc.
and dell components don't have labour in putting them in? oh yeah i guess apples geniuses need more time per ram stick.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
From your link:
That is what "ripping off" means in this context, but that is not what it literally means. Literally it means something more like, "to break off with a shearing force." It's humorous how often English speakers use the word literally when they mean the actually mean the thing figuratively.
"And there be unix which have made themselves unix for the kingdom of heaven's sake." - Matt. 19:12
In reality I guess that a lot more than 10% use original Apple parts. 70-80% perhaps. Only tech perons would dare modify their own HW.
As I said: Good Business.
Why? Because people are willing to pay it. If they weren't, then they would lower their prices until they were.
It has nothing to do with the technology or anything else other than a business decision, aimed at making more money.
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
Had upgraded my MacBook to 2G for 40â instead of the 200â it would have cost on the Apple store, and put in a 160G HDD ... and had it serviced for /free/ due to a warranty extension on the battery.
Unfortunately they did something wrong, the system doesn't recognize whether the power adapter is plugged in or not. Weird.
Because even as someone who works on those models, I really hate opening the glass/aluminum iMac models. Suction cups and dust rollers bug the crap out of me.
I would not, however, ever pay Apple for RAM upgrades. EVER. Unless I hit the lottery and didn't care about the extra $$$.
Aside from where their labor is done, we just had an article on here recently detailing how apple pays its employees LESS than its competitors..."
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
Econ101. You charge whatever the market will bear.
Overheard at an Apple Store yesterday:
Apple Store Employee: If you'd like, we can set up a private sales appointment for you.
Customer: You'd do that? That's wonderful.
No recession at the Apple Store.
Seriously this isn't news at all. So instead of the !news tag, can we get another one: bearshitsinwoods
:P
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
So what part of "Apple is the dealer" don't you understand.
Where do you think that they get their money for research in order to inovate and create the next best thing. Where do you think they got the money to research how a laptop could support 2.6 dual core. Where do you think they got the money to create the number 1 sold phone in america.
Dell what do they do with their profit?? they spend it on their selves
Just because it might have the "duh" factor around here, that doesn't mean that Cnet's target audience is nearly as tech savvy as the rest of us. Besides, it gives us a reason to bitch about something.
My mac pro is 200% cooler than my old PC :D. And quieter too.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
Gee what a brilliant "study." They compare a bunch of components, but don't even bother to see if anything they're comparing is the same quality or even from the same vendor. You can go to an online store right now and find wildly different prices for hardware from different vendors, with different levels of quality. The only component Cnet actually knows the vendor for is the processor, which they say are priced just about the same.
Now I'm not saying Apple isn't charging more for the same quality of upgrades or charging more than the difference in quality warrants. They probably are. But couldn't Cnet go to the bother of actually finding out and comparing upgrade prices to a vendor who actually does use the same brand of components? This is just plain lazy.
They also overcharge for their laptops as well. Now, someone is going to go to Apple.com, spec out a laptop, go to dell.com spec out a laptop and go LOOK! SEE! APPLE IS CHEAPER!!
Yeah, until you actually go to BUY the laptops, and I drop that $500 coupon code in there they give out every month, and take advantage of every other deal Dell runs.
I bought this laptop a year ago, it's a Dell E1705, that's speced to what their XPS laptops are, it just doesn't have the goofy lights. Including warranty and everything, final cost was $2,100. If I'd have bought a MBP with the same specs and warranty, the price shot up over $3,400. Also, even with $3,400 it lacked in a couple areas like the video card. The warranty was also the best they offered. I called about a failed HD at 6PM one day, and had a new HD via DHL 10AM the next day. Motherboard dies, someone comes HERE to fix it. If I had bought that MBP and the HD died, would have been a week to get it fixed through Applecare.
The fact is, you want OSX, you're still going to pay a premium for it. That cost is fine for some, for others like myself--it wasn't worth the extra $1,300.
As many allready have pointed out, this isn't news at all.
It goes even further. I recently upgraded my Mac Mini from 1 GB to 3 GB. Which works, despite rumors and official statements to the contrary. It's only that the on-board OpenGL acceleration and gfx that uses system memory is a tad slower with asymetric memory. Whatever, on it goes: The memory inside was a brand I've never heard of. Some cheap custom line I presume. However, I gave both 512 MB SO-DIMMs to my friend, he replaced the memory on his laptop with it, and all his troubles with a crashing Firefox on Ubuntu Linux stopped. The point is: Apple tests the hardware they put into their systems, which is part of what you pay for.
I upgraded my Mac Mini with Kingston Memory - a high quality brand - and I had to pay for that quality and look up on the web how to open the Mac Mini without damaging it. A truely non-trivial process, even for a tech-savy geek as I am, with a few chances to break the Mac Mini if not done carefully. It also required me having a proper geek tool set at hand. I had no problem doing that, as it saved me quite a bit of money. However, for all those not tech-savy, don't have the tools, are not willing to void their waranty and not willing to fuck up their neat Apple gear by DIYing around with it, the Apple upgrades are just fine. That Apple takes luxury prices for them isn't really suprising either. Real news would be if Apple support persistantly would be at the levels of cheap PC vendors - which I haven't heard of.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
When Apple sells you upgrade hardware, they guarantee the upgrade hardware you bought works with the hardware you have. This guarantee places them at legal liability; You can sue them if it ends up being broken and they refuse to fix it. If you go buy RAM from the big-box store they do not guarantee it will work in your computer. Apple does. You are paying for their legal liability if the memory ends up being out-of-spec or something.
You could say the same thing about IBM selling parts for zSeries machines, or Sun and Sun parts. This is not uncommon in the workstation and higher markets. It is uncommon for PCs, and since the average slashbot has never seen anything other than PCs, they don't understand it.
Besides that, if the price is too high, don't buy it. There is no grounds on which to demonize Apple for charging what the market will bear. Apple (or Dell, or anyone else) is under no obligation to provide you a computer at whatever price you believe to be reasonable. You are not entitled to a Macintosh. (Insert California government joke here.) They charge what they want, and you pay them if you are willing. If you don't want to pay Apple's premium, don't pay it. If there are not enough buyers willing to pay the prices Apple sets, they will eventually be forced to lower their prices or go out of business. This is like me demanding IBM sell me a 2066 for $1500 because "disks are disks and it's just a big PC anyway, and I could build one off Newegg for $700"
I think Iâ(TM)m going to ditch my pc for a Mac just so I can learn how to upgrade them and charge up the wazoo for it! I just donâ(TM)t understand how people still favor an system whose software is limited, hardware costs ridiculous sums and you need to upgrade your OS every time they decide to make a "minor" update like 10.1, 10.2ect. BUT, Microsoft is still the big bad corporate devil!
Apple used to be a "QUALITY" vendor.
You paid more for the hard drives, and my friend's vintage first generation g4 still boots up perfectly on its original hard drive despite being continuously on for its entire life.
You paid through the nose for the monitor, but it had a 30% greater pixel density and better color fidelity.
Now they're utterly shitty tn panels, and nobody is stepping in to fill in this market vacuum.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Everything in an Apple (aside from the OS/software) is basically the same as what's in any windows PC. In fact, in some cases, Apple uses older/inferior components. The SSD in their Air laptop is a generation older than the SSDs in the Thinkpad X300.
It seems pretty clear that they are charging a premium for the CTO service, and not really charging more for the parts. The factory install is what you're paying for.
I thought it made you 200% gayer.
This OLD. This is STALE. This is well known by anyone who watches this stuff.
The point of the article could be to get more people to watch this stuff.
Apple has been charging customers exorbitant fees for upgrades at time-of-sale since they started selling computers.
Their is nothing 'new' here.
I've got your sig, right here.
This isn't news. You get the same results any time you're buying from a software company with a hardware sales model, where the cost of the software is bundled into the hardware. It's the same if you're buying from Cisco, Network Appliance, or anyone else.
If OS X is worth an extra 40% for the base hardware, plus whatever the markup is for bundled upgrades, then you pay the extra for it. If it's not, then you don't. If you're buying Mac hardware to run Windows or Linux, well, you're an oddball minority at best.
The average Mac user is not an idiot but he/she bought the thing because they perceived the device to be a no-headache deal. That is what Apple sells in their marketing. The average Mac user is going to the Mac Store and using Mac parts. No way around that- captive market.
/LabMonkey09
I have both Dell and Mac laptops - the dell gets replaced every 2 years, while my Apple laptop has lasted 4 (without any upgrades). Need to have the complete picture.
Apple fanboys always think that Apple is their best friend. I hate to say it, but it isn't. Apple is a company that is trying to get the most money out of you it can. It is a business.
In their niche they have little competition so they can charge a lot from it. Especially with such a fanatical (and sometimes stupid) fan base.
But won't your cheapest DDR-SODIMM RAM that you can buy from tigerdirect or newegg or whatever work just fine? what kind of hard drive to they use? 2.5" SATA? Last time I checked they use x86 standard parts, they just charge way too much when you buy those same parts with the Apple logo stuck on them.
A "rip-off" is unwitting theft or cheating. To "rip-off" someone, as a verb, is to steal from, hoodwink, or otherwise cheat someone else who is not privy to what is happening before the fact.
In this case, it is obvious that anyone doing their casual homework can figure out they are paying a premium for the same hardware on an Apple machine vs. a Dell or HP. This is hardly a "rip-off." It is simply the market at work.
Apparently, Apple feels that their customers are willing to pay that premium. They are charging what the market will bear. That's not a "rip-off."
An example of the latter would be a "switcheroo," substituting inferior components for what was advertised, for instance.
NOTE: I DO NOT OWN OR USE APPLE'S COMPUTER PRODUCTS; I OWN ONE 80GB IPOD "CLASSIC, AND THAT'S IT. I JUST LIKE PRECISE LANGUAGE.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
In some cases, Apple won't even sell you the upgrade. They don't sell a 15.4" Macbook Pro with a WUXGA screen-- but Dell will put a WUXGA screen in one of their 15.4" widescreen laptops. Imagine what it would cost if they would!
And at least for the CCFL-backlit Macbook Pros, the parts are directly interchangeable. Plug-and-bolt-compatible. (http://www.hiresmacbook.com has details; that's how I did mine)
Who cares what it costs or what the maintenance is? What you should be concerned about is Total Cost of Ownership. I have found Apple computers more expensive up front, with almost no hardware maintenance, little software maintenance, and greater longevity. This has equated to a lower TCO vs. WinTel computers... nrk
you need to upgrade your OS every time they decide to make a "minor" update
I'm still running 10.3 on my Mac Mini, and the only reason I upgraded from 10.2 to 10.3 was because it was bundled with the hardware when I upgraded from a G3 to the Mini.
...who thinks "Well, duh" to this? Apple has always been more expensive. It probably always will be. If you like Apple enough to pay the premium for one, then get over it. It's rare that you hear people complain about being ripped off at the BMW dealership. When you buy a premium car, you expect to pay a premium for the car AND the service. I've never owned an Apple, but everything I've read has indicated that (usually) Apple users also expect significantly better service than you can get from Dell. You guys have to pay for it somehow. TANSTAAFL.
So it's three times as expensive?
For example. 100 euro.
200% more is 100 + 200.
I didn't read TFA, just assuming they mean 100% more expensive.
If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
and it is one of the reason that Apple was crushed by the PC back in the day. Apple was simply too damn greedy. No, they don't market to the tech savy, but then neither does Dell. Dell built their business on value and good customer service (now, not so much).
The point is that if your mac was expandable (rarely were they upgradeable), you paid through the nose, hence the jokes about "Appletax". Now a whole new generation can discover it.
And that is why Apple made their money off the iPod in this century.
As a developer I hate to say it but I have never had Apple RAM fail or overheat or do whatever breaks ram. I used to not believe it when I worked for Apple's Help Desk and we would ask users to pull third party RAM (not for all issues just for repeatable KP's and random reboots) and the issue would go away.
Heck I saw it this year when my company bought bargain RAM and in the middle of doing some dev work my unit would just reboot or halt. It took me 2 days to figure it out. I pulled the side of the tower and right there on the riser were some Red Lights that I thought should not be there. I pulled 2 GB of RAM and it went away.
I have also had this in client \ studio units where they thought I was not doing my job correctly, so I walked away and it turns out that they lost a week of recording time b\c it took that long to say "what do I have to lose?" and bit the bullet and bought the good stuff.
I cannot prove the RAM went bad b\c it was not Apple I can say that for what it worth I have had zero faults in the expensive RAM and several other cases where the users and even other programmers would have a fit because they saved a few bucks and then unit was occasionally unstable.
It is a lot like Schroedingers cat. You cannot determine the state (dead\alive) from th outside.
AND lastly for what it is worth a "bargain" is only a bargain if it saves you billable time and effort. I can afford it. And i have piece of mind on my MBP so while I felt like I got b|tched at the Apple Store. I have loved it every day since
--Shaddup and support your local PBS station Plan for it
I thought this was news for nerds.
Hasn't this been true for about 25 years now?
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Apple doesn't forbid you from providing your own upgrades. Anyone that has been around Macs for more than a few months knows where to order the exact memory sticks that they use for each model, at a fraction of the cost.
The 3GB upgrade for my Mac Book Pro was $99 including shipping, Apple wanted $300 or so for the upgrade. This is not an equivalent upgrade, this is the exact memory stick model that Apple was trying to sell me. And it is a customer allowed upgrade, so it does not affect my warranty coverage.
In the past it was not possible to upgrade the hard drives for Apple laptops, nowadays the cases are designed so the hard disk is easy to remove.
It is not a ripoff, Apple is not in the business of selling at cut throat margins by selling volume. They are in the business of selling premium items at a steep markup. It is just one of thousands of businesses in this country that operates the same way.
Go to your local Target and see how some 19" HDTVs are $400 while others cost twice as much. Price can't be the only criteria. There's a reason why a Sony HDTV costs a hell of a lot more than an Olevia.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
I've seen shows on TV that show you how to change oil, weatherstripping, door knobs, you name it. How come none of these shows will teach somebody to install some RAM? It's easier than changing your oil.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
And this is news how? Congratulations Steve Jobs, Apple has become the new Bose!
...as their own upgrade prices are all over the map.
For instance, on their entry level Vostro desktop, upgrading from the stock Core 2 E4600 to a Q6600 costs $150. On a Precision workstation, upgrading from the same E4600 to the same Q6600 costs $339.
On the Vostro, adding a E228WFP 22" LCD costs $175. On the Precision, $289.
On the Vostro, upgrading from a 160GB SATA hard drive to a 320GB SATA costs $60. On the Precision, the same upgrade costs $210.
On the Vostro, upgrading from a 16X DVDROM to a DVDRW drive costs $15. On the Precision, $45.
There are several factors at work here:
One, Dell just slashed the upgrade prices on their low end computers, hoping to stay competitive with aftermarket upgraders. High end systems are somewhat immune to this, as professional workstation users may not know how to upgrade their systems, or care more about not affecting the factory warranty, or simply value their time too much to bother, and are less likely to shop around for the best prices on parts than bargain-basement deal hunters.
Two, you pay for service. Dell offers much better all-round support on their higher end systems. You're a lot less likely to be bounced around by low level techs or wait on hold for an hour if you own that expensive Precision workstation. The cost of those intangible features trickle down into all the costs related to the PC, including upgrade prices. Especially upgrade prices, as that's where VARs make the majority of their profit.
Three, even if two parts have the same manufacturer and matching specs, they may not be identical. Hardware manufacturers know that not every part that comes off their assembly lines is the same quality: Some come from older or newer factory lines, some were assembled with better or worse batches of components. Hardware manufacturer know that some of their products are more likely to fail than others. To exploit the difference in qualities, OEMs will very often grade their products — offering "Enterprise Grade" and "Consumer Grade", with a price difference to match, when selling parts directly to end users, and a finer gradation when selling to large VARs like Dell or Apple. VARs want to buy the best parts for their high end systems, both because they want to maintain the perception of quality, and because high end tech support is expensive. Lower end components are paired with low end systems where cost savings are critical, or home systems where perception of quality is less important and a lost customer is no big deal, and in either case tech support is relatively cheap.
So, for a variety of factors, upgrade prices vary widely depending on where you buy your computer and how nice of a system you get. If it bothers you, you can always upgrade aftermarket. Granted, Apple's obsession with sleek, unbroken lines makes their computers a pain to take apart, but it can still be done with a bit of effort (and a guide). And their memory slots — the most common upgrade by far — are always easily accessible.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
As long as it makes people realize how dangerous and deadly nuclear power is, it doesn't matter if the minor details are true or not. The important thing is keeping us safe from nuclear proliferation.
Did you write that up on your mac?
If you buy your RAM through Apple, it is certified by Apple and becomes part of the warranty of the product. If there is a problem, you don't have to try to diagnose RAM defects yourself, but if you go for service and you have third party RAM in there, you have to remove it before service. And, of course, any damage done because of the RAM is only covered if it's purchased through Apple.
Me? I still buy the cheap stuff, but I think it's fine that people buy it through Apple to save themselves possible hassles later. At least half of major problems I've seen in Macs that had third party RAM were solved by removing that RAM. There aren't that many problems with Macs to begin with, mind you, which makes the frequency of problems with cheap RAM all the more interesting.
I bought a Mid-2007 black MacBook. It came with the same brand and model number memory as the Acer laptop I bought back in January of 2007.
Perhaps if someone cared enough, they could start an online marketing campaign to NOT buy upgrades from Apple without comparing prices first. I lack marketing skills for online campaigns, but, I know that if a website gets enough hits, it ranks better with Google and other engines, and that in turn might force Apple to pay attention. For example, if someone created a page where it would list Apple's current price for 1 GB RAM chips for a Mac Book Pro, and then list 5 other sites where the same or equivalent chip is sold cheaper, this would be a great thing. As the information is already available to the public via the Internet, Apple would have no cause to sue anyone. Coding is not my skill, so I leave it to whomever would do this. However, as a Mac user (at home), I have yet to pay Mac for a single upgrade because I know how to do a price comparison. This webpage would need to find a way to help the less-skilled who just assume that Apple is the best source for Mac upgrades such as RAM, HDD, etc.
When I bought my laptop in october last year, the macbook with similar features and warranty cost almost exactly twice as what I paid.
They are ripping people off on upgrades. I refused to pay the exorbitant price for a bigger hard drive and went with the cheapest model. I'm running out of space and having to use external drives for storage and am pissed off that Apple does not make upgrading easier and that they rip you off for upgrades. This will be my last Mac unless they make upgrading the hard drive easier. I shouldn't have to go through the minor surgery and void my warranty to add a larger and faster hard drive to my MBP. I never had problems upgrading my old PC laptops.
The comment gets to the core of the entire issue. Apple charges 200% more for the same components because their customers want to pay more. In an extremely wealthy society there is always a group of people who have much more money than the norm, and it is very important to these people that they are able to differentiate themselves from the rest of the population through a series of 'class markers'.
These are items that only they buy because they are much more expensive than similar items available for the general population. Yes these items are better quality, but the degree of higher price for better quality is much greater than would be justified by the cost of the components. So the wealthy aren't selecting these brand items solely for better quality. They are doing it to identify themselves to the other members of their class.
There are many companies that have always positioned themselves into this market niche. But Apple is one of the few companies that continues to insist that their excessively high prices are only a direct result of their 'commitment to high quality'. It is ironic that they have been successful at marketing their 'cool factor' by selling commodity components at such a large premium since the entire concept of 'coolness' in the USA is a set of behaviors and lifestyles designed to give dignity to people with little or no money.
The entertainment industry has been most successful at marketing this contradiction. Apple is the first technology company to do so as well. Even to the point of having their business revolve around a prima-donna rock star personality.
I've detected this about Apple ever since the introduction of the Macintosh, when this kind of mentality started at Apple. I recommend watching them for amusement, but don't buy their products even second-hand. Buy clones (for personal stereos) or functional equivalents (for personal computers).
Despite all their grandiose advertisements, Apple has always existed for only one reason: to transfer wealth from the wealthy (who need to have a non-proletariat PC) to Steve Jobs' bank account.
The system I built for myself for around $950 would easily be around $2500-$3000 if purchased from Apple, and I just don't have a few grand lying around (nor do I want that kind of credit card debt).
I doubt it.
The Mac Pro line uses mostly server/workstation-grade components. Although you might not require this, these components certainly do cost more. Last I checked, building a truly equivalent machine (eg. 8-core Intel Xeon) from parts cost about the same, if not more.
If you don't require a powerful workstation, you might indeed be better off building a machine on your own. However, the high-end workstation market is a pretty well-worn territory that Apple is currently dominating. Those machines have always been expensive, and always will be.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
I remember many years ago, being in Microcenter and seeing a product for the PC, and occasionally wandering into the Mac department and seeing the exact same product, same brand and everything being sold for 50% more for the Mac. It's always been true. Apple provides products that are superior in many ways, but they have a monopoly of sorts as well, and exploit every drop of profit from it.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
you can be "legally blind" and still be able to see.
hell, my right eye is legally blind, but it doesn't require any markings or anything on my VA drivers license.
the history of the world
I asked at my Apple Store how much it would cost for them to install a new hard drive on a MacBook Pro. For a start, it needs to be an Apple part, they usually only replace like-for-like, however they can upgrade. The Genius said he would install a none Apple part (as they seem to know me there) and I just pay the standard labour fee, which is £170.
Replacing the hard drive myself voids the warranty, it needs to be done by an Apple service agent.
So, instead I have booked myself in for an service agent exam at my local Apple training centre for later this month, cost of exam £75. Which then means I can change the hard drive myself.
Apple is ripping off people. Mind you, it doesn't go all the way down. My own personal experience at the Apple store on Regent Street was that Mac Geniuses were telling people to go to another hardware store nearby because the same thing would cost a third the price. I suppose that's the problem with hiring independently minded technical people, some of them may have inconvenient definitions of customer service, like providing services to customers.
it's a fashion victim tax, similar to the stupidity tax on gambling.
need a free COBOL editor for Windows?
Who started the habit of saying "200% more expensive" instead of "three times the price?" It doesn't make any sense to use percentages greater than 100 - no one buys 48/16ths of a gallon of milk, after all.
Look at memory from HP for a laser printer. $500 for a stick that we buy for $48. Talk about a rip off. You don't even need a screw driver to swap out the memory on a 3005 laserjet.
I bought a 20" iMac a couple years ago and configured it on the Apple store website. I passed up on the RAM upgrades, because they were insanely out-of-proportion with the market. I didn't pass up on the bigger hard drive ($40?) or the better video card ($150) because they weren't priced much more than if I bought the same thing at Best Buy. Since I'm not easily able to upgrade a hard drive and video card in an iMac myself, the small premium to have it pre-installed was well worth the additional cost. What's the story here again?
mac pro video cards as well and the mini that is very over priced for it's hardware.
With the mac pro you can't just put a pc one in there you need one with a EFI rom and cross fire does not work in mac os but it's does work if you boot to windows.
Psystar's Open Computer: and the OpenPro Computer have lower cost desktop parts and pci-e and pci slots unlike the imac and mac mini that use laptop parts.
The mini is a joke $599.00 for a 1.83GHz cpu, 1gb of ram, 80 gb hd and a cdwr/dvd add $200 to get a 2.0GHz cpu, 120GB hd and a DVDWR. A $799.00 system with 1gb of ram a POS gma 950 video?
As much as I hate to be drawn into the endless PC/Mac debate, I must point out that part of the reason that Macs have a 'high end' reputation is simply because they are so expensive. They are perceived as premium products by the price alone.
I recently purchased my first Mac (MacBook Pro 15"), and I can say that the *actual* quality is something of a mixed bag. When I loaded XP via Boot Camp, I was surprised to see that a lot of the hardware is from what I consider less than top tier vendors -- Broadcom WiFi, Marvell ethernet, Realtek audio.
At first I was a little let down, but on further consideration it is acceptable. They likely get better attention from these vendors, so everything does Just Work (even in Windows!) Combine this with the excellent keyboard, GPU, weight, battery life, quietness, and overall fit & finish and I think it was well worth the expense. I buy Dells at work all the time, and they are essentially a cheap, disposable way to get the job done.
With an academic discount it was $200 off and came with a free iPod touch, so cost-wise it wasn't in the stratospehere anyway. I'm enjoying learning the ropes in OS X, and honestly, all the griping I was doing about Windows and Microsoft's direction seems justified.
And no, I didn't go for the upgraded RAM.
FIXME: Add a sig here
As many have mentioned, this is no news...
Gilette razor blades are more expensive than the razor; HP Ink costs more than the printer. These after market items are money makers for companies. There are cheaper alternatives in all cases. I doubt Apple makes much money off of these accessories, and they're probably more of a hassle to provide than they're worth, so they charge a premium.
I used to get oil changes at a dealership, and it was a serious rip off. More often than finding something under warrantee, they'd find something that would cost me more money, and push me to trade in my car for another one. I got sick of that, and went for the cheap lube and changing it myself. If you want the dealer to scan over your car for something that might need warrantee work, I'm sure any dealer would be willing to do that for free, no need to get gouged on oil changes. (Some dealers do give you oil changes free or cheap when under warrantee, so they can find additional manufacturer-paid repairs to do; fair enough.)
Brakes are another major rip-off, in my opinion. I used to pay $500 regularly to get my brakes done. I now do it myself. Most people are terrified of them, due to Hollywood's history of showing frequent brake failures and the spectacular crashes that result. If you don't mind getting your hands dirty, it's the cost of a couple of pads ($20-$40), and removing four bolts (after removing the tire). And checking the bits and pieces are lubricated properly, etc.. If your rotors are worn, too, a new OEM pair isn't that expensive (I paid $100 for a pair recently). Brake shops will charge you that for grinding your rotors, and several times that for new ones. (I would never consider getting rotors turned/ground again; new ones are just too inexpensive.) How hard is it to replace a rotor? When you have the caliper off to change the pads, you simply pull off the old rotor, and push on the new one; not even any bolts. (It's held on by the wheel's lug nuts). You should obviously read up and learn how to do it properly, but honestly, it's not that hard; a Haynes manual will explain things well. Rear drum brakes have a lot more parts and springs and things, and can be more intimidating, but once you know how they work and go together, they're not bad at all, either. A point for any novices: make sure everything is cleaned and lubricated well with the proper high temperature grease.
One other point (back on the computer topic): some people have talked about the superior service of Apple. Not all Apple certified dealers are the same. Mine sat on my Mac for a couple of weeks before starting the repair, by which time the warrantee was over! Talking to Apple directly, who were helpful, and told the dealer to fix the damn thing (they had to do it twice, first time he claimed there was no order in the system for it). And when it came back, the keyboard fit so poorly in the case, I wondered if he "sat on it" literally... And the front LED didn't work. I brought it back in, waited another couple of weeks, and finally got my unit back in working condition. I'd never take it to that dealer again, and the next nearest dealer is 500km away. Looks like another item I'll be repairing myself from now on, now that it's out of warrantee.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
Apple has ALWAYS done this. Unless this article is ancient this isn't news. Anyone who buys Macs knows this.
Nothing to see here people, move along
... Apple uses only the finest hardware components, dew picked and flown from Iraq, cleansed in finest quality spring water, lightly soldered, and then sealed in a smooth case designed by the most emo-like of emo designers.
buy the components from Dell. I purchased a 2GB memory upgrade from a local store for $70ish, and a Dell replacement drive from a different laptop. The components are the same, they just have an Apple logo on them.
I'm fairly sure that Seagate doesn't manufacture anything specifically for Apple other than the stickers with Apple logos.
"Lame" - Galaxar
seriously folks, Apple has always charged too much for upgraded parts. RAM especially has been a cost center for Apple for the past decade, as they prefer to ship machines that are inadequately equipped.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
I'm not sure how things are with Apple aside from the price as I haven't used a Mac.
On the other hand, my experiences with Dell have been enough to drive me away from that brand.
A company I worked for had a bunch of Dell desktops and laptops. When we went to upgrade the memory in a bunch of our desktops (3 different model numbers, but all with identical specs), our office manager only mentioned the model she had on our desk when she ordered it from Dell (some policy somewhere prevented us from just getting RAM from wherever we wanted). Turns out that despite all requiring identical spec RAM, Dell crippled it so that the RAM only worked in the specific model. The CD burners they had in them were also crap. Despite being rated at 32x read speeds, half of them couldn't even read at 1x speed.
Then there was the laptops..
We had 8 Dell laptops in an office of 12 people. Only 2 of them didn't require service. 3 of them each had the motherboard, CPU and RAM replaced at least 4 times in the span of 6 months. Failed hard drives, batteries, and displays were also common. One of them completely died because the internal power circuitry fried itself so it would never power up. Despite multiple board replacements, it stayed dead and the Dell service guy (who we eventually cleared a cubicle for because he was there so much) gave up on it.
So sure, you may pay less for the Dell parts, but, in my experience, you don't even get your money's worth.
End of line..
I read: "3.5-inch hard drives: Want to upgrade the hard drive in your MacBook at the time of purchase?" I did not read further as i do not wish to upgrade any MacBooks with 3,5" drives in the near future.
Yeah but you'll be 200% cooler too!
My other sig is a knife wound.
The reason Apple's upgrade are so expensive is to take advantage of those people that are told to by a Mac because they are easy to use. They do not know any better its like the guy in the tv ad this computer has 2GB of sheep :)
Only on Slashdot could "ITZ M$$$$$$$$$'S FAULT" be modded insightful. Apple is price-gouging - period. Microsoft has nothing to do with it.
>>apple pays its employees LESS than its competitors
Yeah, but they make up for it in volume... ;)
-b
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
Are you sure you know what the word "literally" means?
Sure Apple are charging a fortune, but then so are Dell !
I'd never buy a memory/HDD upgrade from Dell as you can just buy the same component off a 3rd party hardware site for a big saving. Oh, and delivery will be less and you don't have to wait 28 days for it to turn up either :-)
Now, if Apple/Dell are going to *fit* it for you, or offer some sort of additional warranty over and above what Corsair/Maxtor etc. then I guess there is some justification for the increased price.
However, there is a valid argument that if (people felt) the price really was a rip off then they wouldn't pay it. Of course, end user ignorance is a big factor in that too.
I say good luck to Apple, they seem to understand how the free market works.
The thing that we should be worried about though, is that we know this is a "rip-off" because we know all about computers. Now, think of all the other stuff you don't know much about (mortgages, life insurance, personal hygene products, dictionaries etc), and take a guess at how much you must be being "ripped off" for all those things ? ;-)
is because only a moron will buy apple, and morons are easier to rip off. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, if a company becomes successful by marketting to morons and suckers, isn't this still a pretty decent business plan?
You know, I like Dells. Typically they are very reliable, both in design and reality. I've found sometimes they give you cheap RAM that dies in a month or two, maybe about 0.5-1.0% of the time.
I'd recommend a Dell to someone - especially if they know what they're doing when it comes to building a PC, but want a good system from day 1, with an easy to work in case.
I'd consider an Apple myself since I got hooked at work. Don't know if I'd buy one, but I've checked it out.
But for EITHER one, I'd say buy it stock and upgrade it later!!! Both are kind of "brand names" in more of a fashion sense than typical hardware vendors. Dell offers cheap systems despite this, Apple... thinks they are. Apple is definitely the "Gap" of home computers though - you will pay a premium just for the Apple logo. That said, the OS is... very comfortable.
Any mac user could have written this years ago. I am a staunch Mac person, and like many others I buy Apple because of the OS and the generally decent hardware but I do so in spite of the rip-off pricing of upgrade components and the near complete lack of support in some areas like high-end video and audio cards. This is NOT news.
A good portion of what you pay extra goes towards the salary of predominantly clueless freshman student part-time employees at the Apple store. They know how to operate the cash register but not much else. At least this keeps them from poisoning people with half-cooked burgers.
Anyone with just a little bit of Mac savvy can pick up a LaCie external drive in the Apple store for about the same price they are anywhere else. They have a very rugged case, no fan and are very nearly silent.
No, but Other World Computing does.
Anyone upgrading mac innards themselves knows about them, or should.
semantics are everything!
That article was based on a statistically insignificant sample size.
The article is a bunch of bull.
Click thru the link for the Macbook configuration and it goes to a MacBook PRO with a 250GB drive as standard.
Ignoring that for a minute. And using the links from the article: (Prices in Pounds Serling)
Dell XPS 1427 Ram 30 Disk 120
Total 1497
MacBook 944 Ram 90 Disk 120
Total 1154
Yet another article where the author doesn't know what he is talking about.
You don't buy Apple memory, hard drives or any other component. You always buy third party. That's been the case at least since I've been using Macs, which goes back to the early nineties. Most Apple users know this.
Nobody really "upgrades" existing PCs any more. Over 80% of desktops are never opened once installed, and for laptops, the percentage is even higher. It's consumer electronics. The "upgrade" market for PCs isn't mainstream; it's more like the "speed shop" market for cars.
Honestly this isn't news, if Apple gets away with charging someone 200, 300 or even 1000% more for a simple upgrade that could have been averted with research, more power to them. I have no sympathy for people who refuse to research before buying. Apple gets what they charge because people pay for it. I knew perfectly well what I was buying when I got my macbook and I had $200 in memory and hard drive (at the time) from Newegg sitting waiting at home for what would have cost me another $700 from Apple. And in the end I was even able to use the hard drive I took out as an external drive.
While we're at it, lets talk about the fact that Apple charges more for different color versions of the same product. This story is pointless.
Which commodity is more valuable? Money or time? Sure I could spend the time to do a bit of research/shopping and installing/setting it up. Given a simple choice of saving money or time, I would be more likely to spend a few dollars then a few hours. Money comes and money goes. Time only goes.
While I don't think it makes up for such a large price increase, changing things in Apples can be more labor than others. I'd like to upgrade the hard drive in my iBook G4, which I'm told is soldered to the motherboard instead of plugged into an IDE header to save some miniscule amount of space. I'm willing to do that myself, but a lot of end-users are not, and not every PC nerd friend or kid across the street is either. There's also a little more liability to screwing that up. I'm tol dI can just use PC3200 laptop memory, which should be no more difficult to install than any PC laptop though. I'd bet the Air isn't a trivial end-user upgrade path either.
With Dell's upgrades, there's a large gap between list price and the price you end up paying if you buy the actual bundle. It's quite difficult for us to get memory upgrades cheaper than what it costs with the server if bought from dell, harddrives on the other hand are sometimes priced so ridiculously that even the dell salespeople are ashamed - and unable to change much about them.
I fix PCs and Mac computers. Even in the age of the g3-g4 the parts were exactly the same. Same video (with a difference in bios), same memory (exactly the same even as far back as the clamshell notebooks, same hard drives.)
The stuff is exactly the same, exactly.
But don't get too carried away. Even the Dell parts are exorbitantly high when priced against retail (not OEM) parts.
What happens is this. If you buy a retail part you can get the manufacturer to honor the warranty. Some people say OEM is enough because you save $20.00 or so on the parts. But this is not the same because they are generally warranted only through whomever you bought the part from, not the manufacturer. This means that if 1 day after the part goes out of warranty (which in cases such as Dell, HP, Gateway (never buy gateway BTW, cheap cheap internals and a total lack of responsibility towards the customers), Sony, etc) you can't get the part replaced. You can't go back to the manufacturer either. With a retail part the warranty is generally much longer (as in the case of memory it is generally a lifetime warranty), HDDs have a 3 to 5 year warranty, etc. That means that after 1 year, if the part goes out you still have 2-5 years even after you get the part replaced under warranty.
So, the rules are this. Pay the extra $20.00 and get the Retail part. Don't expect that a part one day out of warranty will be replaced. The parts from Dell, HP, Gateway, etc are OEM and only can be replaced by them (that's how they get such cheap prices to build such cheap computers). Most Retail parts have a long warranty sometimes even a lifetime warranty. And stay away from Gateway (eMachines is Gateway) as Gateway will not even respect and honor the wishes of a new owner of one of their computers and they will NOT permit you to move from Vista to XP. They won't provide drivers nor even one iota of help to get you working with drivers under XP. They appear to be in cahoots with Microsoft to deny you the choice of OS.
Don't let the "quality" moniker influence you under the Apple brand as they are using the same parts and often those parts are poor quality. The iBook G4 15" and 17" are a perfect example of this. The sunflower iMacs were another example and they had this stupid round motherboard with non-socketed CPUs. Yet, in all this the costs were extremely high.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
Lowest price is not the only thing to consider. Many other factors make up competitive advantage, such as quality of service, convenience, location, coolness factor, etc...
...So, what is Apple doing that Dell is not? Why are people willing to pay 200% more? Is Dell trying to be the McDonalds of the computer world?
This is what sets one product or service apart from another. For example, McDonalds and a four star restaurant both sell food. One provides low cost food and and builds it business model around small profit margins and high volumes. The other adds quality of food, good service, atmosphere, etc to make its business model. A lower volume of sales is offset with higher profit margins.
"Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the f-ing Peace Corps." - John 'Bluto' Blutarsky
I've had stupid A+ cert for over 10 years. I've built over 5000 OEM PCs. Where do I sign up to be able to legitimately charge 200% more than Geek Squad for installing ram? I think my private tech support business would be much more lucrative if I filled out that form. I suppose I have the option of telling all my customers I switched to Mac; if they want continued support they have to switch too. Somehow I think finding the mystery form would be easier.
I think Mac enthusiats will continue to troll this thread and make more riddiculous comments comparing apples to oranges like "cooking a steak vs. going to a restraunt."
A stick of memory can come with various features, sizes, and speeds. Your steak analogy fails beacuse it isn't an apples to apples comparison. Apple is selling you the exact same "apple" at an *unreasonably* inflated price. Logistics, cool factor, labor... Keep listing things that fall under "unreasonable" please.
I, on the other hand, will wait for the new "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" commercial to set the record straight.
I know Apple's upgrades are a little pricey compared to their competition and I don't really know if they use better hardware, but I do have a Pismo Powerbook from 2000 that still works like brand new and it has the original lithium-ion battery in it that can still give me almost 2 hours of power when in the power save mode in Tiger.
It got dropped pretty hard once a couple years ago and it didn't phase it, but it was in a leather bag at the time.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
So what are you going to do once you get rid of you '72 Nova? How do I work on MY car by myself (2008 Mazdaspeed3) without blowing up the turbo? What car built in the past 15 years (other than a Jeep) is able to be worked on by its owner?
I don't think it means what you think it means.
Maybe "reassuring" would fit better.
Apple users will be reassured by the extra cost of Apple hardware. Windows users too.
No sig today...
I'm just impressed that someone actually calculated a percentage correctly! Usually when someone says it's a 200% increase, they really mean "twice as much", a 100% increase. Congrats to Apple for assisting in the development of consumer math skills!
KeS
(I always buy aftermarket RAM and drives for my Macs, Apple is as bad as Sun at marking up that stuff.)
The mini is a joke $599.00 for a 1.83GHz cpu, 1gb of ram, 80 gb hd and a cdwr/dvd add $200 to get a 2.0GHz cpu, 120GB hd and a DVDWR. A $799.00 system with 1gb of ram a POS gma 950 video?
That's not bad for an ultra-SFF. Of course it sucks if you compare it to a standard desktop.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Apple only buys ram and hard drives manufactured on Wednesdays. Products are always much closer to min specification deviancy on Wednesday due to machinery being more closely adjusted and worker fatigue being lower. Monday people are just too tired or hungover. Friday folks just want to start the weekend. Wednesday is the peak. It is also a super well known fact that iPods built during the first 10 hours of the workday are more reliable than the ones assembled in the 10 hours after the Chinese children have rice and water.
I seen this in cars also in which they charge double or more for same part at the luxury car dealer. We have two cars that share common engine platform, Toyota Avalon and Lexus LS300, I go to the Toyota dealership and the oil filter cost about $5 and then I go to the Lexus dealership for same filter the price goes up to $10 or more. I usually buy mine oil filters online by the case so the price for the same oil filter goes down to less than $4 each. Remember these are exactly same part numbers from Toyota (which manufacture both Toyota and Lexus) not "generic" since the Lexus is still under warranty.
Apple thinks of themselves as an "luxury" brand so they charge outrageous prices for the same parts. Yes, it is a pity for those who can't update their own system and I really despise Apple for charging such a exorbitant amount for similar upgrades.
However on the minds of the leadership, they cater to those who buy the items they sell.
If you every look at an Apple is fairly sealed up except for RAM and battery whereas Dell has many access points and doors for replacement of hard drive, RAM, keyboard, battery, and other parts of other models so you can see it is much easier to replace parts on a Dell than a Apple. However Dell has it own problems with people who are not "qualified" to replace parts damage these parts so what was a $100 to replace a hard drive is now a $400 send in to replace the hard drive and logic board since the person damaged the interface during the install.
It has been well known since Apple got into the retail business that their RAM and HDD upgrade pricing is routinely ludicrous.
-b
myselfmusic
So be aware as a customer and don't buy memory from Apple. It's not rocket science. If you get screwed over by buying Apple's memory upgrades, then it's your own darn fault.
That said, I have no idea why there is sooooo much markup on their memory. It *is* a pain to get a machine and *then* buy other ram to put in it to avoid getting worked on the price.
Long ago, when Apple's retail channel partners were much more important than they are now (what with the Apple retail stores and online store being so successful), there was concern among them that Apple would be able to buy upgrade parts in bulk, get lower prices, and undercut the pricing that the resellers offered, thus negatively impacting the resllers' business.
Apple made an agreement not to compete with its resellers on pricing of these upgrade items. This agreement is still in place, which is why the pricing on upgrades purchased directly from Apple are so high. The same is true of service parts; replacement hard drives and RAM are wildly expensive when purchased through Apple for repair purposes.
I am fairly certain this agreement affected other parts such as video cards, logic boards, and power supplies, which is why getting Macs repaired can be so bloody expensive -- Apple is the only real source for all of these proprietary parts.
I know all this because I work at an Apple reseller, as a technician. I deal with this every day.
You mean Apple machines can be upgraded nowadays?
Mosr is reporting that CNet takes 5000% longer to report the painfully obvious than Slashdot. The difference is attributed to CNet's random approach to determining what is of interest to their readers, compared to Slashdot's user-based approach. It is expected that CNet will finally have a comeback to one of the hundreds of CNet jokes on Slashdot in the year 2112.
War as we knew it was obsolete
Nothing could beat complete denial
- Emily Haines
Choice of wording here is a "big deal"
which is more 2x or 200%?
200 seems bigger than 2x to me. But then . . .
Apple has always been for tard's who are scared of computers. Why shouldn't they be ripped off ? The whole fact that Apple has no mid-range computers should tip off consumers to the fact that Apple want's them to pay as much as they will.
Upgrading an Apple yourself or having Apple do it arent the only options. Additionally, for a labor based task its the cost of labor that makes it expensive.
Thanks for he news flash. You know what, they even rip you off on the system before you updrade it. It's the price Appleheads are happy pay for their "amazingly designed high quality OS X dreamy systems".
Besides, yuppies make lots of money.
Apple isn't the only retailer to sell Macs. My first Max was the 17" iMac. I bought it from a computer reseller which was Apple certified and more than happy to install after market RAM that was less than half the price of buying the the iMac fully loaded straight from the factory.
Nearly every single post on here complaining about how much Apple charges to upgrade their products sound like sour grapes. You bash Apple for every little thing you think is an insult to the tech community and still don't buy the products. If you don't buy what they have why complain, if you do buy them educate yourself and don't pay the premiums. Apple puts out pretty clear instructions on how to do this stuff yourself, even to the extent that they label them "User Upgradable Components". I think that Apple has a pretty good racket going if they can charge what they charge. I use Apple products at home, but I program Windows at work. Windows frustrates both me and my users but it's what we have to use and it works for our purposes. At home I can get rid of some of the frustration (there are a few different frustrations but not nearly as bad as with Windows). I upgrade my own memory and hard disks etc. The other thing I noticed is that in order to buy a windows PC at a really good price I go to say Fry's Electronics or Best Buy and I have to already know what I need to know or I get pushed by the salesman to buy whatever he gets the best commission on that week. At the Apple Store I get a salesman that actually knows something about the product and has been trained by Apple to do this. He may still try to sell me more than I need but generally this has not been the case. I trained to be an Apple Certified Technician for a job I had with an Apple retailer, and this was not cheap. The certificate costs quite a bit and the tests are pretty tough. So by adding value you are assured that most of the people that touch your Mac/iPod etc. are trained well enough to actually do the job.
Why bother
Besides the well engineered layout of the mobo, there is nothing special about the components that apple uses.
AAADUUUUUUH?
What did you expect, hand made, jewl encrusted, Apple branded ASICs? Pixie dust? BMW RAM? A Ferrari motherboard?
REALLY, what did you expect? Your problem is you COMPLETELY misunderstood all the "hype over the hardware".
Look at the machines as a whole, dude.
If all PC vendors source the same parts then why are all PCs not created equal?
I would have to disagree that its hardware components are far superior compared to Dell or other PC counter part
Who the FUCK ever asserted that the COMPONENTS in Apple hardware are superior or even different than other vendors? "Superior" could mean that they use higher end components in some of their machines. Their workstation for example uses FBDIMM RAM. Are Apple's FBDIMMs gold plated? No dipshit, you missed the fucking point.
Superior hardware could also refer to the excellent integration they do. Go ahead and pick that one apart.
TFA is about parts like RAM, hard drives, and other add-on components, and not all of them have such an egregious markup. RAM is probably the worst example, but Apple has always had high standards for RAM used in their machines, and on a couple of occasions - 8 years ago, mind you - I bought less expensive RAM that my Mac didn't like. So, at least if you buy RAM from Apple you're guaranteed a high level of quality. OF course, now I just go to Kingston and buy the generic RAM... but check out Kingston's site some time. The RAM they sell specifically for Macs is in fact more expensive than similar RAM without the Apple brand.
So this thread is just silly. The Mac laptops and desktops are very competitively priced, so there's no issue of Apple taking advantage of customers wrt their primary hardware line.
And, as Apple has no monopoly on the parts it sells for upgrades, this is a total non-issue. I mean who knows? Maybe they're using the markup on 3rd-party upgrade parts to subsidize the free shipping on their computers. Or maybe they're padding their cash reserves so they can buy Microsoft when they tank in 10 years.
-- thinkyhead software and media
Apple was doing this sort of pricing back in the days of the Apple ][, about 30 years ago. Back then it was floppy drives and 16K DRAM chips. Once Apple put a price on something, they rarely changed it, even if their parts cost declined dramatically. If you didn't like it, tough, buy a trash-80.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I agree with you, *except* honestly, I think Apple markets their product with much less of a focus on the "scared to death to open the computer" types of users than in the past.
Rather, they like to build high-end products that please the "power user" (who can actually appreciate many of the small details in Mac designs that would go unnoticed by many others), while charging a "stupid tax" for those who refuse to learn a little more about what they're buying.
I mean, look at something like a modern Mac Pro. The RAM is on riser boards that slide out easily, letting someone add FB-DIMM modules without so much as having to fish their hand down inside the case. There's no BIOS to go into either, to reconfigure anything to see the additional RAM. You don't even need a screwdriver to open the case. Just pull a level down in back and take the side panel off, and there it is! If that's too "intimidating" for (we assume) an educated professional of some sort (who would have a need for such a computer to begin with), then I don't blame Apple for charging them a big premium to put the RAM in for them!
Same deal with the hard drives. They're just standard SATA drives, in slide-out carriers. If you can use a Phillips screwdriver to bolt the drive to the carrier in the right orientation, you can add a drive to a Mac Pro.
Authorities have confirmed that the dirty masses are being priced out of _my_ experience.
[Um. Which is to say, when has Apple _not_ been all about paying premium boutique prices for the warm glow of paying premium boutique prices?]
I went to get a RAM upgrade for my Powerbook. It was something like $120 from Apple. The tech person at the Apple store told me it would be cheaper to get it from somewhere else online. So I went to Crucial and got it for about $40. Even their own employees know it's a rip.
I love Apple's hardware and software. I own a (black, fashionable;-) ) Macbook, a 4 year old Aluminium Powerbook and a Mac Pro. I also own a T61 Thinkpad.
The build quality of Apple's ardwrae is unmatched. It's not even a competition. The only PC maker that comes anywhere near Apple's build quality is Sony with its Vaios. Dell? Hp? Lenovo? Don't make me laugh. Make no mistake. I love my T61 Thinkpad, but it simply doesn't compare in build and design quality.
With Apple, the attention to detail starts with the packaging, and ends with the perfectly matching joins and magnetic power supply connectors. Open up a Mac Pro. Compare the insides to any PC case. laugh. They do the same thing with their software.
No one else does this and that is why Apple is booming and the rest of the market loses market share every time Apple brings out something new, be it a computer, mp3 player or phone.
BUT, Apple is greedy. They charge enormous mark-ups for commodity components, such as RAM, Hard-Drives or graphic cards. The article is spot on there. I really wish Apple wouldn't do this as it hurts their reputation every time one of their cheapo hard drives fail, and almost every return customer to Apple's store will skimp on RAM or a hard drive and end up buying real upgrades at Newegg or wherever.
"Either there's a serious difference in the quality of components being used, or Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves."
Or maybe Dell can't figure out how to give good customer service and price it appropriately? Maybe they shot themselves in the foot selling bargain-basement computers with the cheapest possible India-based phone support?
Many people do not mind paying extra for reliable, consistent support, upgrades and service. Apple is obviously doing something right, have a look at their stock price side-by-side with Dell's:
DELL vs AAPL
There's your force.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
It s true Mac can be very helpful for people in the Media industry, and is a bit breaking to the Business.
I like Macs I use one, but it s still a fact that Apple is RIPPING off people, becaue they already knoe that if u r bying a MAc , u can afford more for the upgrade = THEY CAN SUCK MORE OUT OF U,
But still u can do the upgrade urself , check youtube tutoring on how to upgrade different stuff like memory.
I just dont like the fact that a brandname like Apple behaves like a Car Mechanic, when they notice u r not into computers and stuff and u wanna upgrade, it s like "Here s another one, rip'em off....
The number one reason I don't buy apple products is because they are a ripoff. NOT WORTH IT. Even for high end stuff I can normally get the equivalent product more cheaply. Sometimes the price difference is a mere 15%, sometimes its 30% and sometimes apple charges more than double for an equivalent product.
Secondly Apple is much more likely to make their own products obsolete. For example I know a few cases where people could not upgrade ram for their 3.5 year old laptops in an apple store because apple no longer sold compatible ram.
As far as I am concerned the real reason people go for apple is because 'its cool' and because their products are physically attractive. It gets scary because people who buy apple products treat the whole thing like a religion. There is no giving them rational arguments.
And I don't buy the whole operating system stability argument. If you need a stable OS that badly - use Linux.
oh god! not Apple! they represent all that is good and wholesome in the computing world! Don't you think they deserve the extra green for even having to touch the perfection that is their product? I mean, thats the price you pay for even thinking you need to upgrade an Apple!
It's not a 'ripoff' if it's something you can't do yourself.
Your average mechanic will charge you $25 to change the oil in your car. That's about double what materials would set you back at AutoZone.
Further, although I'm perfectly capable of changing my oil, I find a better value in paying someone else to do it rather than going to the parts store, crawling around in the dirt, and then going back to the parts store to return the used oil for recycling.
So how, again, is Apple ripping people off? They don't require owners to upgrade at all, let alone to do so through their stores. They don't prevent other companies from servicing their products, and they don't void warranties if I should choose to upgrade my own RAM/HDD. In fact, upgrading RAM on the MBP's is dead simple.
Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
... about those among us with money and taste to enjoy the aesthetic side of life without the wisdom of appreciating anything really technical.
Such people are easy to rip off. I love macs, eh, would love macs as a seller of macs. The daily spectacle of well-educated but obviously not extraordinarily gifted upstairs parting with extraordinary sums of money to procude tastefully painted and covered pieces of everyday junk, would be rewarding to my wallet and to my not too well honed sense of misanthropy.
There are obviously technically challenged people among the population who cannot abide Microsoft's many deficiencies, chiefly among them the arty set, for whom Macs really are meant. So all allusions above do not apply to them.
Reminds me of a grad school classmate who gave up his Debian box to run some mixed Matlab and Fortran-coded simulations on a Mac. The compilers were either outdated (think fink on gfortran/g95) or expensive and they produced code that ran at times one-third as fast. Matlab was as slow as molasses. Initially, he went about trying to show himself off (or more correctly, his shiny new Mac), but as reality set in, he sheepishly admitted having sold it one fine day on craigslist for a good price. A new Dell box, about 60% of the price of the Mac, running Ubuntu, replaced it. Since then, we have been singularly blessed to rib him endlessly about his former conversion to the finer side of life.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
Compare a High end dell precision tower to a Mac pro. I did. Loaded, with only 4 GB memory (Dell would not let me select more) and almost exactly the same configurations the price came to:
Mac Pro = 8348.00USD
Dell Precision = 8864.00USD
More FUD on Macs costing more. As said many times before, similarly equipped Macs cost the same or less than Dell PCs and you don't have to run Windows too!
And yes, you can get a 1 TB drive in Mac Pros. Actually four of them and they are simple to put in!!!
"Can you believe it? When I go to the local steakhouse, they charge me more than twice what the meat itself actually cost! I can grill porterhouses for the whole family for half of the cost of going to the restaurant, and then there's the cost of gas! WTF! Restaurants suck!"
That's either a blatant strawman, or you didn't read the article- I don't care which.
The article compared getting an upgrade done by Apple to getting one done by Dell- *not* to buying the components yourselves. Score: 5, Insightful? My arse it is...
If you want to use a restaurant analogy, you're actually comparing very similar steaks being prepared in the same manner in different establishments, with one costing much more. But the similarity breaks down here because one could argue (rightly) that you're also paying for the surroundings in a restaurant, hence you pay more in a nicer restaurant. But with the computer, you already paid for the "nice" aspects (more attractive case, better OS) when you originally bought the computer, and there's nothing special about these particular upgrades with generic parts.
Unless of course, one considers having Apple themselves (rather than someone else) perform an otherwise identical upgrade to be worth the extra. Which I'm sure some obsessives^w diehard Apple fans might well do....
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Macs are the piano accordian of Computers -entertaining but not for professionals.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/28/bofh_episode_33/
The easiest way around this price gouging? Hackintosh.
Mail order companies charge $30 or more to install a free memory upgrade that takes 2 minutes to install.
GM and Toyota charge way more for the same parts then at bobs auto.
Ok, you have the right to buy an overhyped, gaudy mac running a dull unix with some standard unix applets and pay ten times more than for a standard linux system running exactly the same applications.
And I have the right to call you n00bish. But well, maybe your ego just needs some external extension to your self respect ;-)
"Life is short and in most cases it ends with death." Sir Sinclair
> The remarkable thing is the bargain they give on
> the base MacPro system - last time I priced
> equivalent 8 core Linux boxes, you'd have to pay
> 25% more to get equivalent hardware with no OS
> installed.
Where do you shop? I can get an eight core linux machine for half the price of a decent eight core mac.
Look here, 8 cores, 8gb ram, raid1 hd, highend opengl, running absolutely silent and a cool case for just 1490Euro including 19% vat (that is, without vat, 1250 Euro) ...http://geizhals.at/deutschland/?cat=WL-3811
"Life is short and in most cases it ends with death." Sir Sinclair
It's amazing many people posting have missed the point. ...
Apple is charging massively more for an identical server from another seller. We are not talking about retail VS. DIY
Why can't people just say "twice as much"?
If you're looking to make a number make much bigger, perhaps?
MS isn't selling hard drives and memory upgrades, which is what we are talking about here.
If you are looking for competition in the Mac Market, take a look here:
http://dealmac.com/
http://ramseeker.com/
That should give you plenty of competition in the Mac Marketplace for the things the article is talking about (upgrades to products). If not, stop by any computer store or consumer electronics store and see the RAM and hard drive (internal as well as external) options available.
It may be confusing since many components are able to be used on both Macs and PC's (much like some Goodyear tires can be used on both Fords and Toyotas). But that has no bearing on the two companies (MS and Apple, or Ford and Toyota) being in competition with each other. As a matter of fact, that further proves the diversity in the marketplace.
If Apple RAM and hard drives were ONLY able to be used in a Mac and nobody else could make them and they thwarted the attempts to get around the system (Ink Cartridge makers, I am looking at you), then you would be right on the money. But in this case, it is not much more than (Gawd, here I go with the car analogy again) Toyota charging 200% more for a stereo upgrade/shiny rims/undercoating/alarm/etc. than Ford.
And to answer another earlier question, yes, there are usually tighter QC specs on the Apple brand than other manufacturers. Compare a Dell 24" ultrasharp display with an Apple 23" Cinema display - the specs are the same on paper, but I have physically installed these two monitors side by side as a test for multiple designers, told them to work with them for a month, swap them with their partner, work another month, and tell me which should be the standard. Not my money, I don't care which they get - but they always choose the Apple Cinema display because the quality is just a little better during the side by side/swap tests. I also have a small pile of hard drives and RAM with Apple logos on the manufacturers stickers indicating they are made specifically to Apple specs.
I hope that helps clear up the confusion.
http://Communityville.com - A free place for new and old neighborhood webmasters to hang out.
I don't beleive it is the fact of a labour/cost/quality issue. I think it is apple and dealers preying on the fact that most mac users think that they cannot use any upgradeable options that is not strictly from an apple dealer/store.
Apple has been doing that for years - that is, overcharge for their systems. Back in the days when the macintosh computer was popular they killed themselves because of this. The one thing that buried them was when they said that their systems are superior and are supposed to be more expensive. Yup, smart people back then knew better and didn't buy their overpriced marketing crap. Now today, they're doing it again, but this time, they're sneakier. They've captured the child market through their Ipods and other devices that kids love. Why? Because they know that parents today will spend an obscene amount of money to please their kids. So, everyone started getting Ipods. Everyone thinks their so cool with an ipod - yet there are tons of other devices on the market that function exactly the same for a fraction less... but that's ok - pay full price while I pay a fraction to do the same thing. Then complain they're charging more and wonder why....
to pay such ridiculous prices
Really.. what does everyone think - that retailers are somehow obliged to give you the cheapest price in the world on everything?
They aren't locking you in to their upgrades, for the most part. They don't void your warranty if you buy your own (within certain reasonable limits) and they don't go after people who sell "compatable" ram and whatnot.
Buying ram from apple is more expensive for the same reason that buying car parts and having them installed at the dealership is more expensive.. .because they can.
120 / 40 = 3 not 2. Maybe they should have used a calculator instead of a slide-rule.
1.5/10
Apple is 200% more expensive than Dell - but the Apple fanboi's take on things?
did the article point out that DELL's upgrades are also much too expensive?
Dell is also too expensive! Waaaaaaaaaaaa! Not as expensive as Apple, but too expensive! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Why doesn't the story mention that? Waaaaaaaaaaa!
Apple overcharging its "loyal customers"?! Shock Horror!
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
in the much better Apple machine.
Nuclear power is NEVER the solution. The byproducts of nuclear power is what enables the creation of nuclear WEAPONS. The only way to a nuclear free world is to destroy all nuclear plants and material, then ensure the knowledge to create nuclear weapons is forgotten and never recovered. If even one nuclear power plant is allowed to exist some corrupt politician will find a way to extract weapons-grade material from it. If we are to live free from the threat of nuclear armageddon they must all be stopped.
Upgrades from all of the larger computer mfgs were quite overpriced, although they USED to be very similar in what they charged for similar hw upgrades, or IOW when last I looked several years Dell upgrades cost as much as Apple upgrade, but Dell must've gotten the message and started charging actual costs while Apple still hasn't learned.
Every single Apple product that I've bought, I've purchased as stripped as I could and back in the late 90s/early 2000s it was possible to strip them down to almost nothing. On desktops I'd strip everything, while on notebooks, I'd mainly just leave out the memory as most of the Apple notebook cases made it difficult (to say the least) to swap the harddrive, so it was worth it to me to have it shipped with a reasonable size harddrive and the RAM savings would usually more than make up for the inflated drive cost. OTOH Apple desktops were so easy to open and access the internals that I'd strip them entirely down, add my own memory, GPU, and hard drives, usually leaving the shipped one in place as the boot drive, although I've also had problems with Apple desktop w/IDE drives dying early deaths, and their notebook drives never seemed to be much more robust, but both of the problems are entirely the fault of the OEM supplying the drives which varied with model and time period, not to mention it seemed to me that Apple never really used a single supplier for harddrives and RAM as I'd gotten entirely different makes of such equipment with computers purchased w/i short timeframes, e.g. a Maxtor drive in one, a WD in another, a Hitachi(notebook) in a third, and an IBM in a fourth(notebook).
RAM isn't as much of a problem as it should die very quickly if it's defective, and there aren't that many actual DRAM mfgs anyways.
The rest of Apple's components used were either specific to them (motherboards) or items made supplied by only a single producer, e.g. CPUs (Motorola -> IBM -> Intel) and GPUs (ATI -> nVidia).
LCDs: not much of a choice there as those seemed to be purchased in large quantites and mostly LCD production seems to be fairly good today, as in Ive seen very few recent LCDs with "stuck" pixels, with the main complaints more commonly being color tinting, brightness, and display "quality" which all vary between the few LCD mfgs which AFAIK Apple uses screens from at various times probably entirely supply and price dependent. (For me this only applied to notebooks, as I prefer CRTs for desktops and leave those off of desktop purchases.)
Peripherals: Keyboard - meh. Apple keyboards have always been OK and good enough to use, so I don't replace those unless they would die(no have yet). The mice OTOH vary from fairly decent to crappy(puck mouse?) and are usually immediately replaced with a third party multi-button optical mouse, unfortunately neither of these items can be dropped from orders.
Two last item, that also cannot be replaced as shipped are the PSUs used by Apple which IME have varied between extremely good and extremely crappy (lasting "forever" v. dying just outside of warranty). Apple has a history of spotty PSUs going back to the very first Macs.
Batteries: Mostly seem to be OK, last a fair number of recharge cycles but could be better, fortunately many third party replacement batteries exist and some decent quality ones as well, but, unfortunately this is another item that cannot be left off of the order most likely for legal liability concerns and dodgy batteries.
Another spate of problems was the industrial espionage that led to MANY computer mfgs and component mfgs making use of faulty electrolytic capacitors from Taiwan several years ago which pretty much led to the untimely and early death of many items that made use of electrolytic capacitors.
Kind of off topic, but just a few days ago I reasoned exactly the same way you did, and bought the 2.4 GHz macbook. Will probably upgrade the RAM from crucial one of these days.
I was contemplating the black macbook, but after seeing how badly fingerprint and oily-hand smudges showed up against it on the store model, I decided to stick with the white model.
make world, not war
Rather, they like to build high-end products that please the "power user" (who can actually appreciate many of the small details in Mac designs that would go unnoticed by many others), while charging a "stupid tax" for those who refuse to learn a little more about what they're buying.
I consider myself a power user and recently had to borrow a mac for typing up some reports because the battery my dell died. As someone who loves to tweak his system, and uses linux, I would like to know about these details in the Mac you talk about that appeal to "power users". I found a simplistic, dumbed down UI in OSX, that couldn't let me tweak much.
The RAM is on riser boards that slide out easily, letting someone add FB-DIMM modules without so much as having to fish their hand down inside the case. There's no BIOS to go into either, to reconfigure anything to see the additional RAM. You don't even need a screwdriver to open the case. Just pull a level down in back and take the side panel off, and there it is! If that's too "intimidating" for (we assume) an educated professional of some sort (who would have a need for such a computer to begin with), then I don't blame Apple for charging them a big premium to put the RAM in for them!
What you're talking about is available in any computer case. I know you were trying to make points about the mac pro, but these are so common these days in PC cases that frankly I would be nonplussed if someone pointed these out as mac features.
Regarding the point about BIOS and installing RAM, you're wrong. Modern PC's don't require you to do anything if you add ram, unless you've been overclocking or some other similarly "advanced" tweak, in which case you should know what you're doing anyway.
I wouldn't be surprised if this pricing were so high in order to cut local Apple-vending Value Added Resellers some slack, especially those serving the business market.
Custom configurations and upgrades are probably a sizeable part of their business. If Apple's prices were too low, then the local shops would lose even more business, and would sell only to people wanting their machines ASAP.
September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
If you were an Apple Certified repair technician, you could certainly do this, and it would not void the warranty.
I will replace your drive for 150% of whatever Dell charges. That's a savings of 25%! Call now.
A joke compared to what? I'm not a Mac fan, but anything comparable in size to the mini costs just as much, or more.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Yes, a little known fact about all apple upgrades is the cool-aid that it comes with. Researchers and the FDA have yet to evaluate the constitution of this watery drink mix, but all who have drank it swear that its worth the price. But seriously guys, i'd love to try your new shiny computers, but you have to realize, that as a PC user, I can upgrade my system (as i just did) for about $200 (talking about a desktop here) in order for me to even consider using a mac i have to for over at lease six times as much just to get a base model. Sorry, but i need to pay my rent as well.
Scientology look good". ;-)
This is what I mean when I write (repeatedly) of "death by a thousand charges." It has driven me away from Apple, and now I've passed that aversion to the next generation (my daughter's graduation present was an EeePC, and now she actually like Xandros).
Apple is going to be really sorry they took this line with their customers. Anyone who isn't mega-wealthy and has seen Ubuntu 8.04 in action will have to seriously question the payoff of buying Apple or Vista-powered hardware. I can run Ubuntu on a 7 year old P4 machine and get 90% of the functionality of a new iMac, and be permanently free of the infinite loop of charges; or spend $500 on a new Dell with Ubuntu and watch it fly -- could it be that Steve J. plans on being retired by the time this chicken comes home to roost on his company?
Development is programmable; Discovery is not programmable. (Fuller)
absolutely, better stuff costs more. it is a bit expensive, but that is why when i buy a mac i make sure that i get everything i want right off the bat. if you want a larger drive, buy an external hard drive and put stuff on that. with 160+ GB, by the time i fill that up i will want a new computer anyway. - Metro Elite Mortgage
I've read Consumer Reports for 25 years. They way they report on Apple products is a mixed blessing for Apple. For years, they've consistently reported statistics showing that (1) Apple's reliability is significantly higher than Dell's, HP's, etc. and (2) customers are much more satisfied with Apple's tech support than Dell's, HP's, etc.
On the other hand, the models CR chooses to test are always taken from the upper end of Apple's product line. As such, there's always a jarring price differential between Macs and PCs: based on the CR ratings, readers would think they'd have to shell out $1,799 for an iMac -- there's no indication that another model is available for $1,199. And in its ratings, CR assigns no value whatsoever to OS X (or the fact that Macs can boot both OS X and Windows). (Personally, I ascribe $1500 of value to OS X. In other words, I would switch from Mac to Windows if I could buy a Windows-only machine for $1500 less than a comparably-equipped Mac.)
That that is is that that that that is not is not.