Why do you think dialup couldn't take their ip address from a 10.x or a 192.168.x.x ip address pool?
There are many, many more dialup users than cable/dsl users. And yes, right now, cable/dsl generally get 1 ip PER CONNECTION. I have 1 ip, and multiple computers behind it. broadband is NOT 1 public ip address per user.
I haven't heard of the 64k connection maximum, but it would be very simple to just add another NAT. There's nothing stopping an isp that uses NAT to just configure several different NAT sub-networks.
From what I understand about the early AOL network, it was basically pretty close to it's own private network. Then they opened it up to the internet, and probably used up several tens of millions of ips.
Ok, call your grandmother up and ask her if she has done any of the stuff you mentioned above. Call up any of the "normal" users and find out if they have ever ftped a file, exchanged files through AIM, or used a vpn.
What I propose is offering a NAT connection as default, but let the user opt out of it. If you have a REASON to have a public ip address, more power to you. Most of the dialup/cable/dsl users don't have a use for it.
These are the users I'm talking about. If you're using a vpn, ftping, or transferring files, you probably know you need a public ip address.
ftping to an old server that doesn't support passive connections? That's have to be an OLD OLD OLD ftp server as the RFC for passive ftp was passed in 1994. FTP servers that don't support passive connections are not RFC compliant.
That's part of my point. Why would you NEED your phone on the public internet? To get to web pages? To use IM? To use e-mail?
Those are all easily done behind a NAT gateway. Putting devices directly onto the internet has it's purposes, but I cannot think of a good reason why a mobile phone would need a public ip address.
Can you provide a good example of the need to put a mobile phone directly onto the internet?
(and no, to get to Paris's phone easier is not a good reason)
I understand what you are saying, but there's no reason for the majority of the dialup users to have a public ip address.
Don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY understand the need for public space in some cases, but there should be different level of services depending on what the customer expects from the connection. If someone were to do a study that said 99% of AOL's customers simply want to use the internet for web/e-mail, and AOL could save $50 million/year by not having to pay ARIN for ip space (and lowered support calls from spyware infested machines), do you think AOL would take notice and make a change?
I think your speculations as to what the future would bring is a little far fetched. Calling NAT a hack may be justified, but it's a hack used by just about every corporate network in the world.
I very well remember playing QuakeWorld on dialup. It worked just fine. Most other users on that server were on dialup connections as well
Right, because that's the only thing that was available at the time. Playing QuakeWorld over dialup on a p-100 as opposed to playing a comparable game today, with today's bandwidth, with today's computers. Even playing over dialup back when people played QuakeWorld, there'd always be someone that would get on with a resnet and own everyone.
Worldwide, it's the majority of all Internet users.
that's my point. NAT the majority of the users of the internet and you'll:
1. instantly have the majority of the normally used ip space suddenly available (for what purpose???) 2. instantly stop the spam flow to millions of mail boxes 3. instantly make DOSes nearly impossible on a large scale 4. instantly provide security for users behind the NAT.
That's just my point. There's not a dire need for them. With your example of Y2K, that was a definite time/date that a problem would occur. Running out of anything is never a definite. Ip space is and will always be limited. Raising the limits doesn't mean you'll remove the problem, you'll only prolong it (for a really really long time). Finding a solution to the problem now is the best bet, the problem being the under utilization of our current ip space.
Removing those dialup users would also severely cut back the spambots.
I know a solution, give everyone/31's. (humor intended)
Another, probably more feasible solution is to use normal numbers, instead of dotted quads. Normal numbers are, at least theoretically, unlimited. The whole base-8 thing is so 1995.
That's right, upgrading your network and spending lots of time/money gets your organization nothing. Sure ipv4 space is limited, but what's wrong with a little conservation.
I would bet most of the ip space is used for dialup users, where 1 dialup user = 1 ip address. Why not just NAT those dialup users? If you need a static ip address, do a 1:1 NAT or something. There's absolutely no reason a dialup user should have a public ip address.
People that use the internet for e-mail/web browsing could care less about their ip address.
Gaming on dialup hasn't really ever worked and is painful at best.
Running a web server on a dialup connect? probably not.
The last part of your paragraph about going to live shows fails to follow basic supply/demand. Tickets sell for $50 or $100 because tickets SELL AT THAT PRICE. if they sold for $5 each, it would still sell out, but the artist and venue would not make as much money. There are limited seats, and therefore, the price rises as anticipated demand rises.
I'll tell ya what they WEREN'T doing, paying per kb of data transferred. The biggest hinderance to phone usage in america is the insistence of the providers to charge per kb for data transferred, be it e-mail, sms, or im. Who wants to pay to get spam through they phone? I know I don't.
When I first got my phone, the first button I pressed took me to the Cingular website. Just opening that page cost me about $.60. I couldn't imagine opening an imap box or something.
The first provider that makes data free will make a killing over here. There might already be one though, but last time I checked Cingular, Verizon, T-Mobile all wanted to gouge every last penny.
If you're like my household, for every box of 10 year old tech goodies, there's at least 3 full boxes of decorations, scrapbook junk, and other girly things.
Make a deal with your wife, you throw out 10lbs of junk, and she does the same.
I have a 2004 honda accord V6 EX model, pretty much top of the line and I get consistent 30mpg highway and about 26 in the city. I can't imagine how a hybrid would get pretty much the same while claiming "fuel economy".
dogs. In the wild, they don't come in pure breeds. What caused a wild dog to turn into a Jack Russell Terrier? Not devine intervention. It's called selective breeding and that caused them to "evolve" into the dog they are today. They will continue to evolve as time progresses.
All the scientists need to do is prove the evolution theory. Easy as that. Proving a theory as important as evolution will forever change the status of religion and science.
here's a starter. MRSA. Multi-Resistant Staph Aureus. How did it get the Multi-Resistant you might ask? EVO-FREAKIN-LUTION.
Wanna win a Nobel Peace Prize and be hailed as the #1 scientist in the world, write that up and make sure you cite your sources.:)
What would happen if he had changed the dns of his website, to, i dunno, say the ip address of fbi.gov? The criminals would then be dossing fbi.gov and the fbi would immediately notice. If it wasn't a dns-based attack, it should be relatively easy to route all incoming traffic to another ip address.
I wonder if the guy that was originally being dossed would get in trouble for it.
sounds like a reverse proxy to me. the proxy server would only request the whole file if it had changed. The proxy servers would take the brunt of the hits and traffic, while the real web server is in the background only serving requests to the proxy servers.
I fail to see how using a black list from SORBS or such will stop a ping flood. Most black lists are for smtp servers only, and the origial article was about sending "traffic" (which i read icmp or dos, typically not e-mail).
I guess you could use the list to build access lists or something for your routers, but that is far from trivial.
If you know something I don't that would make black lists work on other devices, please enlighten us.
One more reason to make your vote count. I don't know anything about Dutch voting, but there HAD to be someone that came up with that law. Easy enough to do everything in your power to ensure that person is never in public office again. A VERY vocal response will also ensure others don't try to tread down that path.
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Why do you think dialup couldn't take their ip address from a 10.x or a 192.168.x.x ip address pool?
There are many, many more dialup users than cable/dsl users. And yes, right now, cable/dsl generally get 1 ip PER CONNECTION. I have 1 ip, and multiple computers behind it. broadband is NOT 1 public ip address per user.
I haven't heard of the 64k connection maximum, but it would be very simple to just add another NAT. There's nothing stopping an isp that uses NAT to just configure several different NAT sub-networks.
From what I understand about the early AOL network, it was basically pretty close to it's own private network. Then they opened it up to the internet, and probably used up several tens of millions of ips.
Ok, call your grandmother up and ask her if she has done any of the stuff you mentioned above. Call up any of the "normal" users and find out if they have ever ftped a file, exchanged files through AIM, or used a vpn.
What I propose is offering a NAT connection as default, but let the user opt out of it. If you have a REASON to have a public ip address, more power to you. Most of the dialup/cable/dsl users don't have a use for it.
These are the users I'm talking about. If you're using a vpn, ftping, or transferring files, you probably know you need a public ip address.
ftping to an old server that doesn't support passive connections? That's have to be an OLD OLD OLD ftp server as the RFC for passive ftp was passed in 1994. FTP servers that don't support passive connections are not RFC compliant.
That's part of my point. Why would you NEED your phone on the public internet? To get to web pages? To use IM? To use e-mail?
Those are all easily done behind a NAT gateway. Putting devices directly onto the internet has it's purposes, but I cannot think of a good reason why a mobile phone would need a public ip address.
Can you provide a good example of the need to put a mobile phone directly onto the internet?
(and no, to get to Paris's phone easier is not a good reason)
I understand what you are saying, but there's no reason for the majority of the dialup users to have a public ip address.
Don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY understand the need for public space in some cases, but there should be different level of services depending on what the customer expects from the connection. If someone were to do a study that said 99% of AOL's customers simply want to use the internet for web/e-mail, and AOL could save $50 million/year by not having to pay ARIN for ip space (and lowered support calls from spyware infested machines), do you think AOL would take notice and make a change?
I think your speculations as to what the future would bring is a little far fetched. Calling NAT a hack may be justified, but it's a hack used by just about every corporate network in the world.
I very well remember playing QuakeWorld on dialup. It worked just fine. Most other users on that server were on dialup connections as well
Right, because that's the only thing that was available at the time. Playing QuakeWorld over dialup on a p-100 as opposed to playing a comparable game today, with today's bandwidth, with today's computers. Even playing over dialup back when people played QuakeWorld, there'd always be someone that would get on with a resnet and own everyone.
Worldwide, it's the majority of all Internet users.
that's my point. NAT the majority of the users of the internet and you'll:
1. instantly have the majority of the normally used ip space suddenly available (for what purpose???)
2. instantly stop the spam flow to millions of mail boxes
3. instantly make DOSes nearly impossible on a large scale
4. instantly provide security for users behind the NAT.
That's just my point. There's not a dire need for them. With your example of Y2K, that was a definite time/date that a problem would occur. Running out of anything is never a definite. Ip space is and will always be limited. Raising the limits doesn't mean you'll remove the problem, you'll only prolong it (for a really really long time). Finding a solution to the problem now is the best bet, the problem being the under utilization of our current ip space.
/31's. (humor intended)
Removing those dialup users would also severely cut back the spambots.
I know a solution, give everyone
Another, probably more feasible solution is to use normal numbers, instead of dotted quads. Normal numbers are, at least theoretically, unlimited. The whole base-8 thing is so 1995.
The sky is falling, The sky is falling.
When numbers run out???!!!??
There are over 4 billion ipv4 addresses. How many of those ip addresses are actually used? How many of those ip addresses could be easily NATted?
I couldn't imagine even 20% (800 million) are being used at any one time.
how many internet users + how many internet servers + gateways = ???
nothing.
That's right, upgrading your network and spending lots of time/money gets your organization nothing. Sure ipv4 space is limited, but what's wrong with a little conservation.
I would bet most of the ip space is used for dialup users, where 1 dialup user = 1 ip address. Why not just NAT those dialup users? If you need a static ip address, do a 1:1 NAT or something. There's absolutely no reason a dialup user should have a public ip address.
People that use the internet for e-mail/web browsing could care less about their ip address.
Gaming on dialup hasn't really ever worked and is painful at best.
Running a web server on a dialup connect? probably not.
How many people still use dialup?
click of death.
850GB is a lot of data to entrust to a company with a poor storage history.
One of my best keyboards I got when I first got into computers.
I had it for probably 8 years before keys started sticking. Most of the home row keys were worn smoothe and didn't have any lettering on them at all.
If you want to learn how to type, get on irc, turn out the lights, and start the flamewars.
The last part of your paragraph about going to live shows fails to follow basic supply/demand. Tickets sell for $50 or $100 because tickets SELL AT THAT PRICE. if they sold for $5 each, it would still sell out, but the artist and venue would not make as much money. There are limited seats, and therefore, the price rises as anticipated demand rises.
...driving...
You stop at stop lights, right? One of Gates' first millions came from stoplight technology. That's ALMOST a M$-based technology
I'll tell ya what they WEREN'T doing, paying per kb of data transferred. The biggest hinderance to phone usage in america is the insistence of the providers to charge per kb for data transferred, be it e-mail, sms, or im. Who wants to pay to get spam through they phone? I know I don't.
When I first got my phone, the first button I pressed took me to the Cingular website. Just opening that page cost me about $.60. I couldn't imagine opening an imap box or something.
The first provider that makes data free will make a killing over here. There might already be one though, but last time I checked Cingular, Verizon, T-Mobile all wanted to gouge every last penny.
If you're like my household, for every box of 10 year old tech goodies, there's at least 3 full boxes of decorations, scrapbook junk, and other girly things.
Make a deal with your wife, you throw out 10lbs of junk, and she does the same.
That's fair, right?
I have a 2004 honda accord V6 EX model, pretty much top of the line and I get consistent 30mpg highway and about 26 in the city. I can't imagine how a hybrid would get pretty much the same while claiming "fuel economy".
RFID = being able to track one's every movement
put a government RFID tag reader ever couple of blocks and you should be able to track people's movements by triangulation.
wrap it in tin foil, and let's see how long it takes for you to get arrested for "defaming the spirit of the RealID card".
Sounds far fetched??
here's another one:
dogs. In the wild, they don't come in pure breeds. What caused a wild dog to turn into a Jack Russell Terrier? Not devine intervention. It's called selective breeding and that caused them to "evolve" into the dog they are today. They will continue to evolve as time progresses.
All the scientists need to do is prove the evolution theory. Easy as that. Proving a theory as important as evolution will forever change the status of religion and science.
:)
here's a starter. MRSA. Multi-Resistant Staph Aureus. How did it get the Multi-Resistant you might ask? EVO-FREAKIN-LUTION.
Wanna win a Nobel Peace Prize and be hailed as the #1 scientist in the world, write that up and make sure you cite your sources.
Just dump everything in one big directory and get google desktop or something
What would happen if he had changed the dns of his website, to, i dunno, say the ip address of fbi.gov? The criminals would then be dossing fbi.gov and the fbi would immediately notice. If it wasn't a dns-based attack, it should be relatively easy to route all incoming traffic to another ip address.
I wonder if the guy that was originally being dossed would get in trouble for it.
sounds like a reverse proxy to me. the proxy server would only request the whole file if it had changed. The proxy servers would take the brunt of the hits and traffic, while the real web server is in the background only serving requests to the proxy servers.
I fail to see how using a black list from SORBS or such will stop a ping flood. Most black lists are for smtp servers only, and the origial article was about sending "traffic" (which i read icmp or dos, typically not e-mail).
I guess you could use the list to build access lists or something for your routers, but that is far from trivial.
If you know something I don't that would make black lists work on other devices, please enlighten us.
One more reason to make your vote count. I don't know anything about Dutch voting, but there HAD to be someone that came up with that law. Easy enough to do everything in your power to ensure that person is never in public office again. A VERY vocal response will also ensure others don't try to tread down that path.
You know what I mean *wink wink*
i always used the "type /disco to get down" channel topic. /disco is obviously short for /disconnect