I agree with you that distancing humans from killing is big a problem. We have that problem now with cruise missiles, cluster bombs, nuke-from-orbit, etc.
But accidental death from robots run amok is not a pleasant thought either. The whole point of an AUTOMATED system is that it runs without a human driving it. This leads to a potential -- however slim -- that the system starts killing people without permission.
It sucks that we kill each other deliberately. Let's not create more opportunities for accidents.
If programming productivity is so hard to measure, then what backs up the claim that some programmers are actually 10x more productive than others?
Maybe that 10x number is BS and the reality is more like 2.5x, or something closer to the actual salary spread between Junior Developer and Technical Lead.
You've just explained why Tank/Healer/DPS is such lazy game design. Any system with a one-dimensional focus on Hit Points is going to rapidly devolve into Progress Quest and the only decisions for the player are trading off between those three roles.
A system with more than one axis of progress could have roles that are "Tank" along one axis, "Healer" along another, and "DPS" along a third. Even with 3 axes you get (uh, one sec, doing math...) 9 distinct composite roles. The point would be to make the game more interesting (more player decisions) and make the characters more closely resemble heroic archetypes from fiction.
People don't play MMOs for the games or the game mechanics. They play to hang out with their online friends. The game is just a lure to get you there, and then a shared activity to keep you playing. An MMO needs both aspects to be successful -- plenty of MMOs don't attract a critical mass of people (enough for you to find a good guild) and struggle and eventually die, and I think Second Life is a good example of what happens to an MMO without any "game" aspect.
So yes, when WoW's gameplay side dries up, those players will move somewhere else. And many of them will move in groups, keeping together with their old guilds. I think the first company to realize this -- and implement pan-game guilds, so that you can start a new game without leaving your friends behind -- will do extremely well. (NCSoft's strategy has tried to exploit this turnover, but completely dropped the ball on maintaining the social aspect of MMOs.)
Human operators are also cheaper to rollout and maintain than all but the simplest robot AI, and will remain so for the foreseeable* future.
-- 77IM
* For certain values of foresight -- I'm sure some AI enthusiast will jump on here and say that realistic, reliable target-acquisition AI should be possible in "about 10 years..."
Wait, you mean to say that being the first-to-market, creating a new "space," acquiring mind-share, and all that other business-type-crap ISN'T a sure-fire magical path to success? Things like quality, usability, and continuous innovation actually matter? Who knew!
-- 77IM, world-view shattered, let's schedule a meeting to discuss a new paradigm
"We're going to lock you in this metal box, blast it into outer space on a giant pile of explosives, and then you'll drink your own urine for 6 months and crash-land in the ocean."
I think that kind of requires an adventurous go-getter attitude.
Randomly generated content is a decent way to increase playability. (Fresh new content is usually better, but not always. Sometimes a fun level is fun to play over and over.)
Scaling the difficulty to the player is a decent way to ensure the right challenge level. (But not always. Sometimes the player wants to know that they defeated the level on their own merits, not because it was scaled down for them.)
Putting the two together, I'd say, the first time the player goes through an area, they get a "fixed" difficulty -- easy areas are easy, hard areas are hard, etc. When they revisit an area after beating it, THEN it should have appropriate-difficulty generated content in it.
So if you found an area too easy, you can go back to it and enjoy a better challenge. If you found an area very difficult, you can go back to it and experience the satisfaction of having pounded it into an easier shape (the difficult enemies are gone because you beat them).
At SNES vs Genesis: Genesis was noticably inferior.
There was a period of time lasting a couple of years ("the Sonic Era") during which Genesis was beating SNES badly in every place but Japan. The two systems were really very close. I find your analysis insightful.
In 1996, CDs were technically superior to rom cartridges.
CDs were not technically superior to ROM cartridges; they were technically inferior. But they were ECONOMICALLY superior. Cartridges were much more expensive, and building a cartridge with storage space anywhere close to a CD would have been cost-prohibitive. This seem like a semantic quibble, but I think it's pretty relevant to the discussion at hand.
I was in the open beta (hey, free game!) and I think the accusation that GameGuard introduces security vulnerabilities into your system, which linger after you uninstall it, are an exaggeration.
No-one wants to hack my desktop, anyway.Being well-endowed is the biggest gift the nature can give to a man. You are ashamed to take shower in public pools and gyms because of your tiny pecker? Now you can leave all your inhibitions behind as we know how to help you enlarge your instrument. Widest selection of desire lifters for men and women! We sell products for making your nights perfect!~
The entirety of the relevant text from The Full Article:
After analyzing our open beta test results Aion will not feature GameGuard at launch. We will however continue to pursue ways to effectively utilize GameGuard within Aion in the future. Right now we're focused on providing players with the best possible Aion experience.
Essentially, they're saying that the implementation is flawed, not the concept.
Are you kidding??? Were you paying attention to the previous police administration? Acevedo is a vast improvement. He is a regular cop who rose through the ranks, not a politician looking for a desk job with a lot of power. He is trying to clean up the department and instill the sort of discipline needed to not shoot black people (which has been a tragic recurring problem that the previous administration basically ignored). And Austin has hired a lot of cops recently is because (surprise, surprise) crime has been increasing. Reasons for this are unclear, but the economic downturn must play a part, and a lot of it is blamed on Katrina evacuees (racism again?). In my neighborhood we monitor local crimes and the police response time has improved greatly. Austin still has the one of the lowest police budgets and number of police per capita of any major US city, and some of the lowest crime statistics. So claiming that Austin is becoming a police state is silly.
Is the APD perfect? Heck no. That blood-draw thing is kind of crap, and for some reason they have been killing people in high-speed chases lately (I guess since they are no longer allowed to shoot black people). But compared to most other police departments, APD is really good, and Acevedo has the unenviable job of trying to make it better. I hope he succeeds.
The problem is: What decisions are we supposed to make based on these codes? Nobody knows.
For example, here is a system that at least means something:
Green: Follow normal security procedures. Go on about your business. These are not the droids you are looking for. Yellow: Be extra-strict with security procedures. Make no exceptions; feel free to be an asshole about it. Report suspicious behavior. Red: Stay at home. Lock your doors. Don't trust anyone you don't know. Double-check your ammo levels.
So, things would be Green most of the time, and if they went to Yellow you would know something was afoot. Red would be reserved for really serious shit (like, planes are actually crashing into towers). The very vagueness of the levels would be a strength, since they don't convey enough information -- people would hear about the Yellow alert and need to actually find out what was going on.
Seriously, hear me out. I've been wondering for years when an implementation like this would finally come along. I think it's a really good compromise between the big corporations and the free peoples, and here's why.
1. Legitimate use is easy and non-annoying. In other words, if you purchase the product on iTunes or Steam or any service implementing this protocol, you can use the product where ever and whenever you want, on whatever devices. There's no "Kindle 1984" scenario looming and no need to buy special "DRM-ready HDMI" cables. Granted, this particular implementation (DPP) may have some annoying aspects, but if the idea catches on hopefully those can be engineered away (that thing about a "file which can not be copied" is stupid, but could probably be replaced with a good private-key scheme).
2. Infringing use is easier to prove/disprove. This assumes that the files are watermarked with your account identifier and digitally signed in some fashion (not difficult -- iTunes does something like this already). A naive user who puts the file up on BitTorrent with their metadata still in it becomes a target for the legal apparatus. (And if there's less infringement, that legal apparatus may shrink from the horrific monster it has recently become.) OTOH, though, if the FBI seizes your hard drive, and all the files on it are properly watermarked and digitally signed, they have no case.
Obviously, some hackers will find a way to crack the file format pretty much the day it is announced, and the BitTorrents will continue. That's OK; a little piracy never hurt anybody. The idea is to protect regular people -- folks who just want to buy or rent a song or movie and play it without a big hassle and without giving control of their computers over to some other company -- and to help the big publishers feel comfortable about moving towards digital distribution.
I want to enjoy MMOs. I really do. But somehow I always wind up on the team with Leeroy @#$% Jenkins.
Someone REALLY needs to add this technology to an MMO -- and then help players to form groups with other people who have the same play style. Let Leeroy and his team of Runners go and have their fun. I'll hang out with some Puzzle-Solvers or Explorers or People Who Actually Read The Quest Dialog or whatever bucket is appropriate for the way I play the particular game. I need help joining the right pick-up group or guild or whatever (if I had social skills, I'd be outside) and an LFG Chat Channel isn't really enough.
THAT would be a customized game experience worth some money ($15/month to whoever could implement it).
Said in a crude way; but to the OP: This guy is right. The most brain-dead simple way to make this work is to just set up your own wiki, and pepper it liberally with links to relevant Wikipedia pages. As someone below points out, there's even a feature in MediaWiki to make this linking easier (look up "InterWiki" in the MediaWiki help).
You may even be able to set up #REDIRECTS using InterWiki links so that people can still see the page names you want in your search and category listing, and then be taken straight to Wikipedia. If you want to get fancy, you can create a Template that opens the Wikipedia page in an IFRAME or does some DHTML to embed the content, so that the surrounding trim (edit link and search box) is for your wiki. The key here is to make sure people understand which content is your own wiki and which is Wikipedia -- whenever they edit or add a page, it goes into your wiki; treat Wikipedia as read-only. (If someone wants to make a genuine contribution to Wikipedia, they can go do that the normal way.)
I think that's the tightest integration you can get -- easy access to Wikipedia info, plus your own wiki for company-specific stuff. On the other hand this right here sounds like a recipe for disaster:
When a user accesses Wikipedia from inside our intranet, they receive the wikipedia content, plus the local domain specific information. For example, links to company-specific wiki pages would be available in Wikipedia pages.
That's not a logistical nightmare; that's a major development effort, just for a freakin' wiki. Requirements like this are why so many software projects fail. Abandon the pie-in-the-sky vision and go with something simple to start.
It's not DRM -- it's anti-cheating software. So if you are running some sort of scripting or bot program, this thing scans your memory, identifies that program, and kills it. It periodically downloads new identifications for new types of cheat programs.
I understand their goals (nobody likes cheaters), but I don't see how this differs in substance from giving full control of your computer over to INCA Internet. I guess that's no different than handing over the keys to Microsoft, and to Nod32 or AVG or whoever does your antivirus -- except that an operating system and antivirus software are supposed to benefit you, while this thing...?
It's not just AV software. The entire software industry operates this way.
1. Shovel feature-rich bug-ware onto unsuspecting schlubs to build "brand" (especially in the enterprise/IT market where the person purchasing the software is often not the person who has to use it, so they make decisions based on feature list and brand name rather than quality) 2. Wait for hobbyists, researchers, or smaller companies to figure out how to do it right 3. Buy their companies 4. Repeat
Remember when Norton was actually decent? It was before Symantec bought them. After the acquisition, Symantec went back to Step 1 and gradually bloated and encrapified the antivirus. Now they are on Step 2. I wouldn't be surprised if they bought up someone like TrendMicro soon, spouting promises of a glorious and euphoria-inducing Norton/PC-cillin integration.
Remember MUDs? Early MMOs? (Pre-EQ, non-UO -- yes, there were a few.) A lot of those games sucked, as games. Yet they drew crowds, and hardcore players ("addicts") because of the social element. The mantra for MMOs has always been, "people come for the game, and stay for the community."
So it makes a ton of sense that sites that already specialize in building a community would start incorporating games. The game is just a medium for hanging out with your friends, which is how the social networking peeps make money. It's the on-line equivalent of getting together with some people on Tuesday night and playing a board game or card game. Monopoly would suck as a single-player game -- the draw is that it's a fun activity to pass the time with your friends.
I'm always baffled by MMOs with poor community support (Tabula Rasa opened with no forums and no LFG screen and no real reason to join a guild? Really?), and even the idea of game lock-in is strange to me ("We still play EverQuest because all our friends are there."). So the idea of starting with the on-line community and from there hopping from game to game seems like huge progress to me. As the integration requirements become better understood, I think we'll see better brides between social-networking sites and "real" games (not the cheap browser-based stuff that is springing up like weeds). This will free up the social-networking experts to develop the community side of things, and the video-game experts to build excellent games. If this means that the days of the $15-per-month subscription game are over, good.
Slashdot Mirror
Shouldn't this story have an "ED-209" tag?
I agree with you that distancing humans from killing is big a problem. We have that problem now with cruise missiles, cluster bombs, nuke-from-orbit, etc.
But accidental death from robots run amok is not a pleasant thought either. The whole point of an AUTOMATED system is that it runs without a human driving it. This leads to a potential -- however slim -- that the system starts killing people without permission.
It sucks that we kill each other deliberately. Let's not create more opportunities for accidents.
-- 77IM, "Guns don't kill people, robot guns kill people."
If programming productivity is so hard to measure, then what backs up the claim that some programmers are actually 10x more productive than others?
Maybe that 10x number is BS and the reality is more like 2.5x, or something closer to the actual salary spread between Junior Developer and Technical Lead.
-- 77IM
You've just explained why Tank/Healer/DPS is such lazy game design. Any system with a one-dimensional focus on Hit Points is going to rapidly devolve into Progress Quest and the only decisions for the player are trading off between those three roles.
A system with more than one axis of progress could have roles that are "Tank" along one axis, "Healer" along another, and "DPS" along a third. Even with 3 axes you get (uh, one sec, doing math...) 9 distinct composite roles. The point would be to make the game more interesting (more player decisions) and make the characters more closely resemble heroic archetypes from fiction.
-- 77IM
+1 Inadvertently Insightful
People don't play MMOs for the games or the game mechanics. They play to hang out with their online friends. The game is just a lure to get you there, and then a shared activity to keep you playing. An MMO needs both aspects to be successful -- plenty of MMOs don't attract a critical mass of people (enough for you to find a good guild) and struggle and eventually die, and I think Second Life is a good example of what happens to an MMO without any "game" aspect.
So yes, when WoW's gameplay side dries up, those players will move somewhere else. And many of them will move in groups, keeping together with their old guilds. I think the first company to realize this -- and implement pan-game guilds, so that you can start a new game without leaving your friends behind -- will do extremely well. (NCSoft's strategy has tried to exploit this turnover, but completely dropped the ball on maintaining the social aspect of MMOs.)
-- 77IM
Human operators are also cheaper to rollout and maintain than all but the simplest robot AI, and will remain so for the foreseeable* future.
-- 77IM
* For certain values of foresight -- I'm sure some AI enthusiast will jump on here and say that realistic, reliable target-acquisition AI should be possible in "about 10 years..."
Wait, you mean to say that being the first-to-market, creating a new "space," acquiring mind-share, and all that other business-type-crap ISN'T a sure-fire magical path to success? Things like quality, usability, and continuous innovation actually matter? Who knew!
-- 77IM, world-view shattered, let's schedule a meeting to discuss a new paradigm
http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/10/22/1333241/China-Expands-Cyberspying-In-US-Report-Says
"We're going to lock you in this metal box, blast it into outer space on a giant pile of explosives, and then you'll drink your own urine for 6 months and crash-land in the ocean."
I think that kind of requires an adventurous go-getter attitude.
-- 77IM
Putting the two together, I'd say, the first time the player goes through an area, they get a "fixed" difficulty -- easy areas are easy, hard areas are hard, etc. When they revisit an area after beating it, THEN it should have appropriate-difficulty generated content in it.
So if you found an area too easy, you can go back to it and enjoy a better challenge. If you found an area very difficult, you can go back to it and experience the satisfaction of having pounded it into an easier shape (the difficult enemies are gone because you beat them).
-- 77IM
At SNES vs Genesis: Genesis was noticably inferior.
There was a period of time lasting a couple of years ("the Sonic Era") during which Genesis was beating SNES badly in every place but Japan. The two systems were really very close. I find your analysis insightful.
In 1996, CDs were technically superior to rom cartridges.
CDs were not technically superior to ROM cartridges; they were technically inferior. But they were ECONOMICALLY superior. Cartridges were much more expensive, and building a cartridge with storage space anywhere close to a CD would have been cost-prohibitive. This seem like a semantic quibble, but I think it's pretty relevant to the discussion at hand.
-- 77IM
Yes, but is Moblin fully integrated with Goriya and Octorok?
-- 77IM
I was in the open beta (hey, free game!) and I think the accusation that GameGuard introduces security vulnerabilities into your system, which linger after you uninstall it, are an exaggeration.
No-one wants to hack my desktop, anyway.Being well-endowed is the biggest gift the nature can give to a man. You are ashamed to take shower in public pools and gyms because of your tiny pecker? Now you can leave all your inhibitions behind as we know how to help you enlarge your instrument. Widest selection of desire lifters for men and women! We sell products for making your nights perfect!~
No, they basically say the exact opposite.
The entirety of the relevant text from The Full Article:
After analyzing our open beta test results Aion will not feature GameGuard at launch. We will however continue to pursue ways to effectively utilize GameGuard within Aion in the future. Right now we're focused on providing players with the best possible Aion experience.
Essentially, they're saying that the implementation is flawed, not the concept.
-- 77IM
Are you kidding??? Were you paying attention to the previous police administration? Acevedo is a vast improvement. He is a regular cop who rose through the ranks, not a politician looking for a desk job with a lot of power. He is trying to clean up the department and instill the sort of discipline needed to not shoot black people (which has been a tragic recurring problem that the previous administration basically ignored). And Austin has hired a lot of cops recently is because (surprise, surprise) crime has been increasing. Reasons for this are unclear, but the economic downturn must play a part, and a lot of it is blamed on Katrina evacuees (racism again?). In my neighborhood we monitor local crimes and the police response time has improved greatly. Austin still has the one of the lowest police budgets and number of police per capita of any major US city, and some of the lowest crime statistics. So claiming that Austin is becoming a police state is silly.
Is the APD perfect? Heck no. That blood-draw thing is kind of crap, and for some reason they have been killing people in high-speed chases lately (I guess since they are no longer allowed to shoot black people). But compared to most other police departments, APD is really good, and Acevedo has the unenviable job of trying to make it better. I hope he succeeds.
-- 77IM
The problem is: What decisions are we supposed to make based on these codes? Nobody knows.
For example, here is a system that at least means something:
Green: Follow normal security procedures. Go on about your business. These are not the droids you are looking for.
Yellow: Be extra-strict with security procedures. Make no exceptions; feel free to be an asshole about it. Report suspicious behavior.
Red: Stay at home. Lock your doors. Don't trust anyone you don't know. Double-check your ammo levels.
So, things would be Green most of the time, and if they went to Yellow you would know something was afoot. Red would be reserved for really serious shit (like, planes are actually crashing into towers). The very vagueness of the levels would be a strength, since they don't convey enough information -- people would hear about the Yellow alert and need to actually find out what was going on.
-- 77IM
Seriously, hear me out. I've been wondering for years when an implementation like this would finally come along. I think it's a really good compromise between the big corporations and the free peoples, and here's why.
1. Legitimate use is easy and non-annoying. In other words, if you purchase the product on iTunes or Steam or any service implementing this protocol, you can use the product where ever and whenever you want, on whatever devices. There's no "Kindle 1984" scenario looming and no need to buy special "DRM-ready HDMI" cables. Granted, this particular implementation (DPP) may have some annoying aspects, but if the idea catches on hopefully those can be engineered away (that thing about a "file which can not be copied" is stupid, but could probably be replaced with a good private-key scheme).
2. Infringing use is easier to prove/disprove. This assumes that the files are watermarked with your account identifier and digitally signed in some fashion (not difficult -- iTunes does something like this already). A naive user who puts the file up on BitTorrent with their metadata still in it becomes a target for the legal apparatus. (And if there's less infringement, that legal apparatus may shrink from the horrific monster it has recently become.) OTOH, though, if the FBI seizes your hard drive, and all the files on it are properly watermarked and digitally signed, they have no case.
Obviously, some hackers will find a way to crack the file format pretty much the day it is announced, and the BitTorrents will continue. That's OK; a little piracy never hurt anybody. The idea is to protect regular people -- folks who just want to buy or rent a song or movie and play it without a big hassle and without giving control of their computers over to some other company -- and to help the big publishers feel comfortable about moving towards digital distribution.
-- 77IM
(No, this is NOT about cybering...)
I want to enjoy MMOs. I really do. But somehow I always wind up on the team with Leeroy @#$% Jenkins.
Someone REALLY needs to add this technology to an MMO -- and then help players to form groups with other people who have the same play style. Let Leeroy and his team of Runners go and have their fun. I'll hang out with some Puzzle-Solvers or Explorers or People Who Actually Read The Quest Dialog or whatever bucket is appropriate for the way I play the particular game. I need help joining the right pick-up group or guild or whatever (if I had social skills, I'd be outside) and an LFG Chat Channel isn't really enough.
THAT would be a customized game experience worth some money ($15/month to whoever could implement it).
-- 77IM
Said in a crude way; but to the OP: This guy is right. The most brain-dead simple way to make this work is to just set up your own wiki, and pepper it liberally with links to relevant Wikipedia pages. As someone below points out, there's even a feature in MediaWiki to make this linking easier (look up "InterWiki" in the MediaWiki help).
You may even be able to set up #REDIRECTS using InterWiki links so that people can still see the page names you want in your search and category listing, and then be taken straight to Wikipedia. If you want to get fancy, you can create a Template that opens the Wikipedia page in an IFRAME or does some DHTML to embed the content, so that the surrounding trim (edit link and search box) is for your wiki. The key here is to make sure people understand which content is your own wiki and which is Wikipedia -- whenever they edit or add a page, it goes into your wiki; treat Wikipedia as read-only. (If someone wants to make a genuine contribution to Wikipedia, they can go do that the normal way.)
I think that's the tightest integration you can get -- easy access to Wikipedia info, plus your own wiki for company-specific stuff. On the other hand this right here sounds like a recipe for disaster:
When a user accesses Wikipedia from inside our intranet, they receive the wikipedia content, plus the local domain specific information. For example, links to company-specific wiki pages would be available in Wikipedia pages.
That's not a logistical nightmare; that's a major development effort, just for a freakin' wiki. Requirements like this are why so many software projects fail. Abandon the pie-in-the-sky vision and go with something simple to start.
Like URLs.
It's not DRM -- it's anti-cheating software. So if you are running some sort of scripting or bot program, this thing scans your memory, identifies that program, and kills it. It periodically downloads new identifications for new types of cheat programs.
I understand their goals (nobody likes cheaters), but I don't see how this differs in substance from giving full control of your computer over to INCA Internet. I guess that's no different than handing over the keys to Microsoft, and to Nod32 or AVG or whoever does your antivirus -- except that an operating system and antivirus software are supposed to benefit you, while this thing...?
-- 77IM
Holy crap, that shit should be illegal.
I was going to try out Exteel and now I am glad I didn't. Slashvertisement Fail.
-- 77IM
You should set your password to,
I am a pedophile and this encrypted partition contains my child pornography.
That way, if a court orders you to reveal your password, you can plead the 5th Amendment.
-- 77IM
PS. I am not a pedophile, and my encrypted partition no child pornography, just pirated movies and TV shows.
http://www.mosnews.com/weird/2009/07/07/strongvagina/
It's not just AV software. The entire software industry operates this way.
1. Shovel feature-rich bug-ware onto unsuspecting schlubs to build "brand" (especially in the enterprise/IT market where the person purchasing the software is often not the person who has to use it, so they make decisions based on feature list and brand name rather than quality)
2. Wait for hobbyists, researchers, or smaller companies to figure out how to do it right
3. Buy their companies
4. Repeat
Remember when Norton was actually decent? It was before Symantec bought them. After the acquisition, Symantec went back to Step 1 and gradually bloated and encrapified the antivirus. Now they are on Step 2. I wouldn't be surprised if they bought up someone like TrendMicro soon, spouting promises of a glorious and euphoria-inducing Norton/PC-cillin integration.
-- 77IM
You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads!
Remember MUDs? Early MMOs? (Pre-EQ, non-UO -- yes, there were a few.) A lot of those games sucked, as games. Yet they drew crowds, and hardcore players ("addicts") because of the social element. The mantra for MMOs has always been, "people come for the game, and stay for the community."
So it makes a ton of sense that sites that already specialize in building a community would start incorporating games. The game is just a medium for hanging out with your friends, which is how the social networking peeps make money. It's the on-line equivalent of getting together with some people on Tuesday night and playing a board game or card game. Monopoly would suck as a single-player game -- the draw is that it's a fun activity to pass the time with your friends.
I'm always baffled by MMOs with poor community support (Tabula Rasa opened with no forums and no LFG screen and no real reason to join a guild? Really?), and even the idea of game lock-in is strange to me ("We still play EverQuest because all our friends are there."). So the idea of starting with the on-line community and from there hopping from game to game seems like huge progress to me. As the integration requirements become better understood, I think we'll see better brides between social-networking sites and "real" games (not the cheap browser-based stuff that is springing up like weeds). This will free up the social-networking experts to develop the community side of things, and the video-game experts to build excellent games. If this means that the days of the $15-per-month subscription game are over, good.
-- 77IM